Slovenian SAR80: Sterling Out-Simplifies the AR-180
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
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The British Sterling firm designed the SAR-80 (specifically, their engineer Frank Waters) as a very simple rifle to sell to countries outside the main NATO/Warsaw spheres of influence. Sterling ended up getting a license to produce the AR-18 though, and didn't put Water's design into production.
When the newly formed Chartered Industries of Singapore came looking for a rifle to produce, the SAR-80 design was a chance for Sterling to sell a production license. CIS needed something to produce domestically to equip the Singaporean Army, and the SAR-80 met their needs. After selling the rifles to their own Army, the company went looking for export clients. They found a few, including Croatia, the Central African Republic, and Slovenia. A total of about 80,000 SAR-80 rifles were made, and this is one of the Slovenian-contract examples.
Thanks to Polenar Tactical for the opportunity to film this neat piece!
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*I knew it! Ian is The Machine!*
He truly is... The Forgotten Weapon
Roger Roger
Explains why he hasn't aged a day after ten years
The Machine Gun 💪💪💪
@@Acidic-ue2ml gold
He’s more machine now than man. Twisted and obsessed with french guns
You say a little bit robotique
Hello there
@@murphy7801 made me chuckle, thanks kind sir.
he listened to too much Daft Punk
Ian could be a French Terminator
Ian is Skynet's lesser known T-765(FL) model, specifically designed as a mobile weapons information unit, able to upload any missing data to field Terminator units.
hahahaha
I knew it! How else could he remember all those facts about firearms and history, if he wasn't a cyborg all along?!
Little did we know, Skynet's first attempt to send back an assassin failed when the T-1AN said "screw this, I'm going to become a guntuber" and started using his encyclopic weapon knowledge for ad revenue
Blinky lights under that ponytail?
Not to mention he hasn't aged in at least a decade
Just a sidenote on the magazine taken from the rifle: It is standard AR15/M16 mag also with side cut on right side fits AR18 but it also fits Ultimax 100 LMG with those two round holes under left side mag lip. In the 1990 is Slovenia bought SAR80 and some Ultimax 100 light machineguns which uses drum magazines but needs modified AR15/M16 mags (with those two holes) so it can be used. Seen both weapons in use with Croatian Special Police forces and ZNG in 90's, government of Croatia purchase those along with or from Slovenia for the't purpose.
Great job as always from Cyborgs 🙂 at Forgotten Weapons and Inc.. (Polenar, Bloke and so onn...) 😃
No don't tell me the institute got Ian and replaced him with a synth 😮 00:08
F-ckin' Institute, man!
CIS license produced M16A1-pattern rifles, which were standard issue for the Singapore Armed Forces into the 2000s. The SAR-80 (and SR88) never saw widespread service in Singapore.
CIS/ST was never wildly successful as an arms producer, especially without government support. Their small arms were, at best, exported to a few developing states. Even the Ultimax in Singaporean service is now being replaced by Colt IARs.
Adding an anecdote to the last point as a full-time conscript, refurbished SAR-21s no longer have any markings on their new receivers; save for a crudely hand-etched serial number from the previous receiver.
Like the SAR 80, the Ultimax 100 would also be exported in some quantity to Slovenia and Croatia around the same time, as were Singaporean made Armbrust antitank launchers. Croatia and Slovenia just seemed to like buying from Chartered Industries/ST in the 70s-90s.
For the money the AR-18 series of guns is about the most "Bang" you can get for your money. I am always amazed how simple these guns are, yet how well they work. I can't believe someone has not started making them for the civilian market, at half the price of an AR-15 series.
You really think someone can tool up and make these for $300-$400?
@@panzerabwerkanone The barrel will be the only hold up. I'm an engineer setting at my desk right now, in a plant making vastly more complex items... The way to do it would be using the standard AR barrel nut system, so you could source off the shelf barrels. The Trigger and bolt head would need to be the same off the shelf AR patterns as well. I work at scale, so price is for a few thousand a day of any item, but at that volume these things would be well under that price.
@@homeinthewhiteoaks BRN-180 is the closest thing currently on the market, all made by Primary Weapon Systems. They seem to go out of stock fairly often, so it doesn't look like PWS has a too much of their time dedicated to making them instead of their other products.
You can already buy an AR-15 for ~$500. The economy of scale and 6 decades of design improvements and production experience behind the AR-15 platform is just too high an obstacle to overcome unless you're really bringing something new to the table.
The AR-18/180 failed because the market for ultra-cheap rifles isn't that large. Hi-Point gets away with bottom-of-the-barrel pistols because the Venn diagram of "people with very little disposable income" and "people who want/need a pistol for self-defense" has a sizeable overlap. The same can't really be said of combat rifles.
@@ericsmith5919 I get that, but some of us just want to play with something different.
Saw a few Singaporean SAR80s with Solomons Islands police back in 2003, also their Ultimax.
When I was a army reservist with a Singapore army transport battalion 18 rears ago, this was our personal weapon. Front line units were using M16s. More parts vs. M16, meant harder time in the field cleaning it. Thank you for the video.
Ian went full Synth for a sec
I really love the design of this I think it's very clever. The simplicity is a very good thing in my opinion. The recoil springs and rods look like they're really good and the adjustable gas block is great and simple and probably pretty reliable if you keep it clean. The only two things I see that are not so great are the non captured take down pins and the front sling mount. I guess if it's your issued weapon you are going to make damn sure you don't lose those takedown pins. It would have added a lot of expense making them captured. It's normally done by drilling a hole through the aluminum receiver, but with stamped steel you can't drill that hole and you would probably have to weld something onto the receiver. If I was using one of these on the battlefield I think I would acquire a couple of extra takedown pins and keep them stashed away somewhere. I wonder what it weighs I did not hear him mention that. I think the sights looked pretty decent and functional as well
3.7 kg according to Wikipedia.
When you want your rifle to match your truck bed liner
Thanks Ian, what a brilliant and simple design. Sterling produced excellent kit, I used the SMG a lot, never a failure. I loved the finish too.
Had the suits left Sterling to make the L85, basically a bullpupped one of these, it might not have been the disaster it was before HK fixed it.
Great video, I’d love to see a more current forgotten weapons style video on the SAR-21. I moved to Singapore just after they adopted it and saw it at their military museum. They had a cool little light gun game for kids to play with M16s where you could shoot some really basic looking 2D figures on a screen.
"These 2D figures have littered - with chewing gum. You must deal with them."
@@AshleyPomeroyBased
Here in Italy, we have those former Slovenian SAR-80s on our civilian market. They have been demilitarized (converted to semi-automatic only with modifications that prevent select-fire operation from being restored) and are pretty nice guns. Good shots too.
I had a Sterling made AR-180. A totally reliable little rifle.
For those interested Sterling was based in Rainham Road Dagenham Essex UK opposite the Eastbrook public house , now the Sterling industrial estate . A few semi auto versions found their way onto the civvy marker in the UK and proved to be a good reliable and accurate rifle in minor calibre for UKPSA . Long out of business and hoping to secure the SA80 conteact in UK with their folding stock version of this rifle with 30 AND 4O round mags ( of which I had numerous because of their high level of quality control ) , also had a 9mmP/38 357 dual calibre revolver they hoped would be adopted by British military and police . Sterling was nearly obliterated in WW2 by a V2 rocket that narrowly missed the buildings and destroyed the main gate . Frank Waters went on to design and build bespoke air rifles in a unit not far from the works and near the Bull public house !
Chartered Industries were very ambitious and at this time introduced the world to an upgraded M4 Sherman tank for the 80s for sale to poorer nations which was met with even less enthusiasm than the rjfle .
V interesting thanks! 🇬🇧👍
What a great video to wake up to! We all love your content ian
I love it when guns come with original accessories even if the contents are a little cheap.
As a -180B owner, you can see a lot of quality of life improvements on this.
Love it!! Thanks Ian!
This is so nostalgic to me Ian. I am from Singapore. During my days in the army as a armorers. I use to service and take down SAR 80. Like you mentioned. It is easily and economically made to suits to our conscript army recruits. The stamps receiver body was feeling more sort of “flimsy” then the usual M16 variant we use widely during those days. We usually issued the rifle use for the logistically support units and such.😅
My memory was how ridiculously easy it was for a magazine to drop off while on the move. Nearly everyone ended up stuffing cardboard or matchsticks to close up the gap in the mag well.
The mag pouch catch reminds me of the catch on the British Osprey pouches. IMO a great catch design because you can just pull up on the tab to very quickly open the pouch lid, but it's a really secure closure.
It was heavier than the M16A1S1 but just as accurate. Used mainly by Basic Defence Training Package (BDTP) like logistics units. Got my Battalion level Marksmanship Cert on this rifle! The SAW mags would run on this rifle.
The large rear aperture sight was for nighttime use when the pupil is dilated otherwise you couldn’t see a thing. 🙂
Many thanks to Polenar Tactical for helping Ian and us see this throw back.
(:
I wanted one of those back in the 80's early 90s.. I thought the finish was rather cool, nowadays my M4 clone is my main squeeze and I don't figure that will ever change.. yes my wife knows about her
That first 10 seconds was funnier than the last 20 years of "comedy" movies put together.
As expected, only an android with a computer brain could have possibly remembered all those weapons disassemblies, and even more importantly, how to reassemble these unique and little known weapons. 😮😮😮
I've read about this rifle but never seen it, as a Singaporean this is fascinating! I think the SAR80 was first replaced by M16s before transitioning to the SAR21. Also that finish looks very unique! Thanks Ian
It's the other way around actually, the SAR-80 was meant for export sales and floated as a potential replacement for the M16. The combat arms in the Singapore Army didn't like it and the SAR-80 was issued to logistics units in the 1980s until the SAR-21 came out in the 00s.
@@Kelvin_Foo To be precise, the M16 used by the SAF is M16A1S1 ("S1" just means it was licensed by ST Kinetics), or at least the variant last used before the SAR21.
@@amoeba80 There were at least 3 different versions, IIRC. some had the 3-prong flash hider and no forward assist, while others had the birdcage, and forward assist and the CIS markings are rather elaborate. The most recent one just has simple text CIS markings and M16S1. The "A1" designation, IIRC, was never marked on any locally made M16
@@Kelvin_Foo You're correct that there were indeed three versions of the M-16 used by the SAF, and I have used all of them (yeah, that was, like, two generations ago!).
The first and earliest version had a greenish finish, no forward assist, and a tapered open-end three-prong flash hider. It was most likely a direct import from Colt, as the Colt logo and "AR-15" were prominently stamped on the left-side of the magazine well.
The second version had a black finish, a forward assist, and a straight open-end three-prong flash hider. This one was issued in limited numbers and most likely a transitional model (at least for the flash hider). I can't remember what was stamped on the left-side of the magazine well, as I had it for a short time during on-course training.
The third version was the standard issued model, in black finish, with the forward assist, and the closed-end "bird cage" flash hider. "M-16S1" was stamped on the left-side of the magazine well, among other texts (but no logo).
What's less known were the M-16 carbines adopted by the SAF in limited numbers, and there were two versions. The first was the CAR-15 that looked like an early version of the M-4 and had a similar-length barrel (long enough to mount an M-203, I was told, but we got the regular M-203 instead). It had a black finish, no forward assist, and the bird cage flash hider. This was issued to AMX-13 tank crews (but not the M-113 crews and troops, who had the regular M-16S1) and special ops people (I had one 😉).
The second version was the XM-177 (can't remember which variant) that had a shorter barrel than the CAR-15, a forward assist, and the extra long flash hider. This was issued in very small numbers, and, I believe, only to the recon troopers until it was replaced by the SAR-21.
@@hohoho13 Yes, that's pretty close to what I remember, I excluded the XM-177E2(?) and the carbines (Model 653s? 654s?), as these were special use cases. The carbines were mounted on the AMX-13 turret roof racks as there wasn't enough space to stow them inside. God forbid losing one while bashing a light tank through the jungle...
That magazine pouch is very much similar to the Yugoslavian pouch that I have for my Yugo M70AB2. For the M70 (This is the one with the 1.5mm steel stamped receiver and the "bulged" front trunnion from the RPK, which reinforced it for grenade launching, as well as the grenade front sight, which, when folded up operated a gas cutoff in the gas block.) those two little compartments between the pairs of magazine cells are made to accept the typical "tubular" AK cleaning kit in the front pocket, and the thread-on grenade launching muzzle attachment in the rear pocket.
Gotta love those ab2's
Idk what it is about this gun, but aesthetically it's my favorite.. performance be damned. Glad you covered it, ive been waiting for this one. Something about that faux-galvanized paintjob and whatever cheap plastic they used reminds me of all my dads early 90s work out equipment.
In an alternate universe maybe a folding stock SAR is adopted by the British instead of the SA80. When folded it’s shorter and lighter than the SA80 and when unfolded has none of the SA80’s handling issues.
The only thing that could be improved is making the grenade launching gas setting more automatic, but that’s fairly simple.
In an alternate universe the Brits would actually adopt the decent rifle instead of using the stillborn SA80 (until corrected by H&K).
No, the AR15 never got produced and the 18 won
I agree, this could have been a practical option. With perhaps a more finessed version for front line troops.
Cool rifle. Really simple design.👍👍
Seems like a very simple and clever design. It seems like there could have been a lot of potential for modernizing the design if it had been kept in service. I think the AR15 is a good pattern but it seems to me like it is almost universally adopted by anyone that doesn’t use the AK, just because it is almost universally adopted by anyone that doesn’t use the AK. (It’s popular because it’s popular)
The majority of the popularity comes from how adaptable the AR-15 platform is. While there are plenty of options out there for solid and dependable service rifles, the AR is by far the easiest to fit into a role, especially when you consider the staggering amount of calibers it is capable of using. Everything from CQB roles to DMR/SPR tasks, all while keeping a reasonably sized and lightweight rifle.
Ian leaving the obvious glitch in the matrix as a forth wall break, well done.
Cyborg voice was kinda cute tho
I read this before the video started and thought he was gonna do a bit about fighting terminators or something lol
@@abrahamlincoln8477 The trick is, he is the terminator.
Ian have you ever dived into forgotten edged weapons? I’ve got a Hirschfanger made by Carl Eickhorn that my Grandfather brought back from Germany after the war. I know they’re collectible, but there doesn’t seem to be much definitive info available as to the specific rarity of the variations. . . Sounds like a perfect project for you! Love the channel, keep it up 👍🏻
For a minute there the paint had me thinking the receiver might have been cast
the magazine pouch is an interesting evolution/copy of the original yugo M70 mag pouch. There the inner small space is for the rifle grenade attachment while the outer pockets (here closed with velcro) are for a small oil bottle and other cleaning stuff.
Presumably this new slovenian pouch was made to fit the M70 more so than the SAR80 / for both guns. You can see the magazine compartments are very large compared to the smaller AR18 magazines.
These are also very ubiquitous here, they made far more of them that would be needed for a small batch of rifles used in the early 90s.
Great video
Nothing disturbs a stealthy approach than opening a Velcro ammo pouch!
Cool thanks Ian
Assault Rifles and Squad Automatic Weapons are always my cup of tea because I love automatic guns that look simple and beautiful.
I hear Bloke on the Range's slow, heavy breathing...
Is 'Tokarev-style' another term for short-stroke piston, or are there specific differences?
Half the fun of 'Forgotten Weapons' is Ian's self-deprecating humor--or did the mask actually slip??😎
That paint reminds me of the spatter paint used in old car trunks and old ovens.
Yaaay my country!
really clever and simple dust cover
Proud to have one, with the rail!
We shall call him... Cyborgian!
The juxtaposition of the excellent design against the ugly-as-sin looks/paint job is very entertaining.
In the two front pockets were oil bottle and cleaning string and instead of this cheap plastic bottle in the middle, there was similar size cleaning kit.
ya know, it's rough on the outside but I was impressed by the attention to detail of the internals. In fact, some of that stuff would have been nice to implement on a standard AR-180.
Ian confirm for Ultraman.
Nothing greater than velcro for a super quiet tactical reload mag pouch.
Reminds me of the old viral video "how to open velcro without anyone hearing the velcro": czcams.com/video/vSK3maq8Cyk/video.html
@@948320z without watching that video im gonna guess. Open your mag pouch while mag dumping your rifle to cover the sound?
This looks like it could be the ShockMaster’s rifle of choice
The timeline on the history of this isn't quite right - Sterling already had a licence to produce the AR-18 when they developed the SAR 80. As best as anyone can tell, the development of the rifle was a joint effort between Sterling and CIS from the outset: there are photos of very early prototypes in Singapore with wooden furniture.
Yay! Sterling at it again, In my home town too 🙂
I was not prepared to hear about my country like this, here.
Sterling Management: So Frank have you seen the new AR 18 that the guys at Armalite USA just produced?
Frank Waters Sterling's chief design engineer: Give me a couple of weeks and I can make a functional replica from a piece of box section, a biscuit tin, some paper clips and half a tin of leftover Hammerite paint I just found in the maintenance cupboard. 😂
"it will be about 20 quid cheaper"
Man, I'd love a video on the SR 88A, if you can ever get you hands on one. There's maybe three videos and barely more than that in good photos floating around the internet, but it seems like an incredibly cool (and nice looking) rifle.
I am waiting for the red eyeball glow to show through on the camera
Now that your true cyborg nature is revealed, will you also do a series on "knives and stabbing weapons" ?
It's funny that the gas system is also the same as the Dragunov. Exact same configuration of the piston contained within an adjustable block and the connecting rod going through to the bolt carrier
That looks like a good firearm, someone should make a copy
This is such a simple and rugged design. I wish someone would make this design here in semiauto. I'd buy one.
Bunch of SAR-80s came as surplus to Finland in early 2000s, number of reservists bought these since getting AR15s to here was a bit difficult for awhile due to effects of both 9/11 and end of the AWB.I ran one for few years on SRA-matches, generally worked well with the lowest gas setting, but the bolt hold open can cause issues if its spring is weak. Accuracy was around 3-4 MOA / 150 meters. Muzzle device, front and rear sights and the grip IIRC are all compatible with AR15 parts.
4 MOA at 150 meters....Damn and I thought my service C7 was bad. Thought you Finns prided yourself on your marksmanship. Why accept that kind of mechanical accuracy ?
@@clothar23Well, as I said, there wasn't too many other 556 rifles available at the time, Also, to specify, this was practical accuracy from mag support and with irons...never scoped the rifle.
@@mike9975 Scoped , hell my C7 was getting 2 MOA with a bargain bin red dot off the shoulder at 200 meters.
I would have deserted the CAF if 4 MOA was the best my service rifle could do with mag support even with irons.
Snacks or smokes. The answer for what goes in the mag pouch is always snacks or smokes.
When was the last mag balancing video? Love them
it would be interesting to find out how much interaction between Enfield and Sterling was taking place when this was designed. The working parts look like they would fit directly into the L85A1.
There was no interaction. Enfield stole the design.
@@pdallen8355 Just because the interaction is Forcey Fun Times, and therefore one-sided, doesn't mean there was no interaction.
Hey Ian, if you can I’d love to see a video on the service rifle of my home country of Japan (type 89) as there are no videos of it in your level of detail on the internet
Those extra pockets in the magazine pouch are obviously for a couple of packets of Turistična pasteta
Crazy how much this reminds me of the L85
I love how simple that is!
*DEVELOPMENT COMPLETE*
3:27 Forget dual purpose. That thing’s triple purpose!
It’s got the two holes on top to fit into a Ultimax
Those front pouches are probably for a pull through and cleaning patches.
I am still very sad that there are only a couple of videos a week now. And I am really sad that some weeks only have maybe one video come out.
In the words of my father that had one Issued to him when he was in the slo army "Throw that trash away, mags that fall out berel that warped after the first day on the range, hand guard broke in the first month if I ever touch once again it will be to soon"
CIS is later known as ST kinetics
I coked on my hot tea when the cyborg bit happened 😂😂
Terminator called he wants hes AR back
Guts wake up! More forgotten weapons lore just dropped!
The upper is so close to an SA80A1 it's uncanny.
After Singapore became independent in 1965 (only country in the world to be kicked out of a federation), it's Armed Forces were conceptualized with the help of Israeli military advisors, and this included selecting the M16 as the primary infantry small-arms. At the time, we frankly looked ridiculous lugging SLRs around the jungle. Anecdotes mention that the then defense minister apparently wanted all riflemen to carry UZIs, but the infantry advisors did a proper job, which is how the Singapore Army, post independence wore American M1 helmets, British 1958 pattern webbing and were armed with M16s and FN GPMGs.
It was soon discovered that the production license with Colt only covered units made for the Singapore Army, with Colt denying Singapore a regional export license, so Singapore realized it had a full rifle production factory that would shut down after the M-16 run, so they went to look for alternatives (this included hiring L. James Sullivan) which became the SAR 80 and the Ultimax.
I remember that plastic bottle from my national service! It was part of the standard rifle cleaning kit we were issued in the 1980s.. but I never bothered to carry it in the field
At the risk of carbon dating myself, I've used all three rifles adopted by the Singapore Army (M16S1, SAR-80 and SAR-21). The SAR-21 is the easiest to live with outfield, followed by the M16 and then the SAR-80 because of the inevitable rust that develops. Interestingly enough, a heavy barrelled version of the M16 was used as an automatic rifle before the Ultimax 100 was developed, and now the Colt IAR 6940 is replacing the Ultimax 100, proving that sometimes history is a circle.
@@Kelvin_Foo I was issued an AR-15 in basic, then used an M16S1 during the rest of my service. Saw the SAR-80 a couple of times. Dating myself.. we used Ultimax Mk 2 in school, and while the Mk 3 was a lot better, they’ve been in service for over forty years..
Infantry is still the poor dog of the Army (though they have lots of new vehicles.. they were retiring the Bedford three-toners when I did NS)
Man, '80's Singapore had some sweet small arms between this and the Ultimax 100. We should have gotten the Ultimax, they're way lighter than m249s.
Somalia also imported some of these in the '80s and they still pop-up on the illicit market every now and then.
That’s a second generation SAR-80.
Cleaning this rifle would be super easy. Just don't know why they didn't use captive pins.
Think of all of the woes Great Britan would have avoided had they adopted this rifle instead of the SA80 bullpup.
I wonder if the wk 180 will ever end up on forgotten weapons someday
It always amazes me how many countries essentially copied… or even outright stole, Eugene Stoners work.
Interesting gun! I really don't think anybody could get away with that front sling mount these days! I'd love to know how easily the rifle's accuracy could be affected by just manipulating the sling.
I mean ar15 with FSP or colt side swivels. Doubt it's that big of a deal.
So that's why after 10 years Ian hasn't aged....
Jonathan and the gang did a fine video on this earlier.
Anyone else notice Ian's left eye glowed red during his cyborg moment?
"I need your clothes, your bike and all your French long."
@@kentlindal5422 I'll be French
'This time No retreat "
@@wilsonj4705 "au revouir baby"
IanBot9000 with the audio glitch for the win.
Now that we know, we gotta know what chrome you’re running Ian.
The guts of the SAR look like the SA 80 😮