Versus Mode's Biggest Problem (Warhammer: Vermintide 2)
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2024
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JFYI: During the first two alphas our matchmaking system basically just fills the lobbies without taking any skill level or experience into account. This is mostly to test server scaling, stability and to collect data. Real matchmaking will be included in later tests
That is fantastic news!
Matchmaking is a serious issue. Imagine 4 new players going up against a 4 man veteran premade. It's no surprise so many people leave mid match.
That’s why I don’t solo queue L4D2😂
idk if there are enough players for a ranking system
i never even found a game with more than 1 other person in it
For now, im happy letting FS get the kinks worked out and I’ll try it with some friends later. But once it released, I do wonder if it will have enough players.
What's the point of ranking system in this mode?
1st biggest problem I encountered was VS forcing me to double play as hero team and instantly winning or double playing skaven team and instantly losing after I reach the end instead of letting the enemy team play.
2nd biggest problem is the hookrats ability to drag people into death spots or off cliffs which should be entirely prevented.
3rd is pushing the balance towards making the ubersreik 5 feel less like heroes and more targets for the skaven, the buffs they did are not in the right direction and they are disabling talents and going to be hard nerfing others just to compesate the wrong thing. I play alot of A-syms and I can say for a fact this game mode will die very fast if this keeps up
You get to be rats and being a rat is pretty poggers if I do say so myself 🐀
I hope you are ready for controversy regarding the mode, most of my firsthand experience talking to the upper level modded players of the game have a "git gud" and "let's make them ragequit" mentality which is going to divide an already small playerbase, which is a good way to kill a **casual** PvP mode before release. One of the glaring things they'll refuse to understand is that this is meant to be a "Casual competitive" mode, not everyone sweating their pores off like they're in tournament.
MMR takes time to implement and isn't easy, I think above all before anything we **NEEED** private lobbies. Most of the people I personally inquired to about why they aren't playing versus dumbs down to "Me and my friends don't want to run into the teams of people that play Vermintide like a second job, we just wanna chill and have fun instead of playing spectator mode because the other people just have thousands of hours of experience with the game"
Most importantly though as a PITCH? I think if games are TOO one-sided, there should be a scramble system, where the teams are randomized after one or two one-sided rounds, forcing the 4-stack teams to play against one another for the rest of the rounds, instead of just stomping the likely solo-queued baby players, this will at least stop the problem where people just want to leave because it's not fun to not get to play that the opposing team is so far ahead in skill. This helps reel in that "casual" aspect and will make games more competitively fun and INTERESTING instead of it just being another boring clean sweep.
I've been on the delivering and receiving end of team stacked games and it is the biggest problem for the mode right now. It is so detrimental to the fun that it is actively warding players off from even wanting to try it.
ok but like the scramble team idea is actually genius?????
only on the surface level is it a solution - what you have introduced now is people who will disconnect because their team members are now separated and are unable to switch teams either because the slots are filled and transfer is impossible, or because they reached a hypothetical number of team switches. See team fortress 2 or l4d2 versus for examples. You've even mentioned the mentality of the aforementioned people.
Duke Rayven here... My introduction to vs mode was with GuzT's team. We ended up against the c3 Downs tournament winner and he was teamed with two known hackers. (They already had two previous accounts banned for hacking I might add and this was now their third.) I played the game mode for about 30 minutes and determined it was not worth my time to put it mildly. In regards to my statements they responded pretty much the same way you claim they did so there's more Credence to that.
also, yes WP has no "traditional" ranged weapon, but you have hammer and tome, that honestly is god tier in this mode, because it can oneshot hook, ass and globe with a huggge range, as well as offering insane mobility
One shottin dat ass ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Vermintide is very much a skill/experience-reliant game and it transfers to the Versus mode as well. You said all the words I had in my mind and then some.
I'm still a little worried about the future of the entire mode, but I'm optimistic about it.
let me play the warp spawn to hug your worries away :D !
I honestly didn't play as much this time around. I agree with your points on a soft MMR system. The team imbalance is what made it unfun for me, I think. It's never fun to get stomped or do the stomping. I never had a premade either, so teamwork was pretty nonexistent from my matches. So that could be another issue to solve. encourage randoms to work together. Since the games been out for so long, it doesn't really seem to be an issue on the hero side. But once they go to the skaven side, it's just more of a free for all it seems. See who can do the most damage or just run in guns blazing without your teammates and just get gunned down because of it. I have a ton of L4D2 versus experience so this kind of gameplay comes natural to me. But I can't expect the same out of anyone else, ya know. Overall I think the mode definitely has potential. just some glaring issues to be ironed out. I'm really hoping when it comes to a full release that the mode is still played for years to come. instead of being forgotten and un-updated by the devs. I want it to succeed.
"sister staff disable you and is not fun"
Bro half the specials are Disablers.
Special =/= alt fire on a weapon
I payed that staff and I want to use it ..
This kind of game mode is very hard to balance. I remember it same as you describe it from Left 4 Dead, game was almost always one sided and after first section at least one player on losing side usually left causing chain disconnect from rest of the players. Im not sure for who FS actually doing this versus mode, I wish they would rather focus on Darktide.
They have two teams, one for darktide one for Vermintide
@@averageeughenjoyer6429 then why does it feel like they have one? Last big update for darktide was 4 months ago?
@@2ClutchGamers because one of these teams suffer from fatshark disease the other one did
Yeah, I'm unsure if they're trying to make this game mode competitive or not. I came back to the game after 2 years for this, and I feel like I don't stand a single chance.
AFAIK this mode is a Pandora's box, anything you do will require even more work on your side, so its either ship it as is (L4D style) or go down the rabbit hole and end up with dead game mode.
I really enjoyed the mode. I feel like maybe stealth is a little OP, as huntsman it felt like bullying. Maybe they should change it to just removing the players outline instead of full invisibility.
As for the other things you mentioned, maybe an even more aggressive form of the rush/speedrun intervention algorithm they use for adventure mode. And they could roughly balance the teams by the difficulties completed in other modes. Far from perfect but that would probably make a big difference.
Biggest issue for me was joining an ongoing match and not being able to choose my character. And people just leaving matches constantly (I get small lags for a couple of seconds each time that happens, really ruins some rounds for me).
I think the skaven needs more Qs when they appear and more tweak like in lfd. Because for now everyone is learning how to play skaven, thats why the heroes looks really strong. I would like to control a black rat tho.
My biggest issue with this mode is that half of it isn't much fun, playing as skaven is very fun while playing as heroes isn't.
Vermitide 2 versus was the most depressing, annoying and futile game mode i have played in any game ever.
From my experience, if the enemy team was good enough, there was nothing you could ever do to win, it was only a question of, will they fuck up or no.
nothing you did could cause them to fuck up, damage didn´t stick so attrition warfare was useless and ohh, you got a down, so what?
they just get revived 2 seconds after and be full health 3 second later.
Most used ranged weapons being instakills felt like absolute shit, why even have a health bar if your gonna die immediately after getting hit?
The idea is good, the execution was shit to the point of alt-f4 when you get certain teams, as if your randoms aren´t born from the horned rats ass, your not winning that match, no matter how good your own play is.
lol wow it's almost as if it's repeating all the mistakes of L4D versus huh
Warrior Priest is broken beyond belief in Versus. He's my 2nd most played PVE character after Grail Knight and I always enjoyed playing good support characters in games. But in Versus the problem is that during his shield Skaven can't do anything and it's not good for PVP. Not only he gives a free revive without putting much effort compared to every other class, but also during his shield it's pointless to attack him or the target in his bubble. It's not a matter of skill when there's no outplay. Cooldown on his ultimate should be double or triple of what it is right now at the very least, so that he could only spam it if he has the cooldown potion. Basically, use the shield only at the right time, or sacrifice a potion to do a huge a play. Not every teamfight multiple times...
Now, Globedier. Compared to other rats it feels like it doesn't require much skill for how much damage Globedier does. I feel like his attack reloads too fast, especially considering that he can block off stairs and hallways completely in certain cases. Not to mention that good Globediers simply hide on elevation spamming the objective, and you can't get to them. It's especially annoying when there are 2 Globediers on the enemy team during some kind of event and there's a low HP teammate who can't even get out of 2 clouds deployed at the same time. I feel like there should be a limit to Globediers during defence sections of the map, where heroes must secure a zone (only 1 Globedier at most during these parts).
Why would a 6 years old game suddenly have PVP mode? Chaos waste was actually fun and I wish they expanded more upon that. I have to say, the last update where they added the new enemy is good content. More ingame content that actually make sense would be great.
So In other words vermintide wasn't designed around pvp so all the talents and skills of each hero will be overpowered
No MMR. L4D2 versus survives on the custom games available with 2 teams of four. add the possiblity for an 8 player lobby to have two designated teams. keep normal queues just joshin' and whatever.
the worst things i have played was a team of 4 veteran againt's my team of newbie. i i'm not that bad at the game, but i'm also not a god tier player. I would never do speed run in vermintide, even PVE.
Yet, this was the most boring game of my life in PVP... the good player where just rolling us, killing themself at the end to play more round, then, destroying us early game with the skaven. Impossible to do anythings by our general lack of skill. their team was Ranger Veteran, the elf class that get you back with more hp, the warrior priest of sigmar, and the battle mage.
Yeah, lift needs to be reigned in massively if not fully disabled on player specials. I had several games in which a group abused the staff to a degree that made the match a 4v3. LITERAL perma-stunning a player. A friend of mine was chain-stunned for over 30 seconds in one example and they never played versus after that again.
I'll say that that is not a common occurance for sure but it's possible and not actually hard to pull of at all.
There are several changes that can be made to reign in the spamablility of the lift but it needs to happen. One special being lifted to save another hero is totally fine, being lifted every single respawn / permanently is actually killing the experience for good.
The base difficulty for versus also needs to be increased to something like veteran or maybe even closer to champion. The ambient AI can be fully ignored in terms of damage output and do absolutely nothing to slow the heros down.
I'd personally like to see a few minor changes to the ratlinggunner and the assassin: ratling now does 50% or even 100% more damage a shot and the assassin can chose to smokebomb while assassinating before getting hit by a hero to save themselves.
In general, the weapons rats are also too easy to stagger out of their attacks.
I’m hesitant to buff skaven more because I’m seeing newer players get destroyed because they don’t have the muscle memory vets do. I think the best way to balance it out is to curb the things heros can do that only vets can reliably do (like they did by nerfing long range handgun shots, but not close range ones)
I think I would be better for it to act like a ranked like in other games and every 30 sec a match is not found the mmr gap is increased to have a match
Had few matches against premade group of w. priest, foot knight, iron breaker and wayfarer...they had all regen + all dmg reduction traits. Once we had 2 globes ticking + 2 warp fires grilling 1 of them at the same time. Dude took almost no dmg. Match felt like our only option is going full disabler rats, but even then warrior priest always saved disabled players. We weren't noobs, but we felt absolutely powerless as rats.
well they gave buff for skaven its just the rattling gunner got buffed but the flamethrower rat got hard nerfed its cuz he does 4 damage when he unleash the flames and has massive knock back from closed alpha and then current day they nerfed his damage too 2 damage and it barely has knockback and also enemy heroes can walk into flame rat flames when he unleashes which its really dumb thing to do that.
Playing against trollhammer torpedo is brutal
You could have a soft mmr system the game will try and out equally skilled players but if the game can’t find anyone within your skill level then it’ll go down and keep going until it finds someone
Some time ago, I and my friend were trying out Versus, and after 2 crashes we got the match.
Immidietly we understood that all of the enemy team were a full party and veterans(they ran Merc, Necro, Battle priest and Kerrilian 1) in the game mode after 1 round all of us rage quit.
Basicly, we have abandoned this game mode ever since, it's just wasn't fun
Somehow versus look worst than weaves
to solve the problem of skill difference they probably can add some buffs to the team wich lose too many points
I remember being really excited to have gotten into the first closed alpha. I played for a few games but I was really not impressed, in fact I actually didn't like it. Even this newer patched version, I dunno what it is but I just don't like it. I think the mystique of having waited for versus for literal years, I played the V2 alpha in 2018 and I loved it, I have over 1k hours. But this, I'm not a fan of it.
left 4 dead players been playing without an mmr for years, i think we'll be fine without it
I currently can’t say much about the modus.
I tried to join a match last weekend and at the moment I joined a team my game crashed.
Yeah I was kinda not bothered to open vermintide again and try it out.
Currently helldivers 2 got me fixated😂😅
Warrior Priest is pretty easy to fight again wdym
The rush thing is the thing i hated the most. Rounds ending in minutes pretty much. And heroes can go down 3 times before even dying if they are not close to an edge so i can instant kill them with the hook rat. The heroes take literally no damage. Almost every hero have a shield. Talents that give them damage reduction and the power bar fills when you deal or recieve damage. While not taking any damage at all.
Imo buff the rats or give them a talent tree. I dont want them to tweak too much because balancing more will just make more comp wannabes ( sorry but comp players are cringe ) but pvp brings those kind of people.
Just make the mode fun for both sides.
Squeek Team 6
The way you stretched out the 'this game needs mmr' part over 4 minutes was impressive. Very much trying to hit the word count vibes
Your videos definitely show that you have any sort of authority over the quality of a video
Versus mode has to net enough new players that it doesn't take significant number away from the other modes and harm the overall game by doing so...and it's been so long after the game's release that I doubt it can achieve that goal.
Fatshark doesn't have enough people where it matters, and it needs to pull itself together with the pace communication and update, but then I'm not saying anything you haven't both heard and read multiple times over the last few *years*. Never can I recall a game studio having such gold in their hands, multiple times, and dropping it.
i would love to share my feedback with versus...if i could get a lobby lmao
Your game looks so beautiful! It feels darker than mine, how?
Turning the lighting settings to low/lowest causes the game to become super bright; Having those settings on the higher ends tends to make the game darker in some areas
Engie is SS tier too imo, and we really need 8 man lobbies. Rattling felt kinda weak, but rest is ok.
I actually feel like ranger vet is better than engi. Infinite ammo with his drops, invis, healing with THP, stagger and extra damage on ult compared to engi’s gun which has infinite ammo but not infinite uptime (which RV has due to his ammo packs giving him infinite ammo)
Biggest issue is somehow the console community is never getting vs.
I’m avoiding versus stuff til it releases officially to learn then but I do wonder if giving heroes limited ultra or drastically increasing ult timer would be good
Like maybe 3 ultrs max per hero per match so that way characters like WP and Merc can’t just get free team revives and shields/temp hp spam constantly
If would be fine if the rats did damage or got points for downig players.
I doubt I will play PvP mode because... I dont like PvP in general.
But premades make sense. That seems simple. Whether they have the size for versus or not I am not sure.
I also dont know how many leagues or ranked matches they could have and based on number of wins thr game forces you into a specific rank tier.
Its easy but fun, i have a near 100% winrate only broght down by joining lost games and having legitimately afk team mates who sniff gas for a living.
Most people can't make the jump to doing it professionally, and only sniff gas as amateurs.
JTC please dont lie about your win-rate I've seen you lose and rage quit, your last video was against a c1dwons team that finished one map but going against dutch spice players you throw multiple accusations of hacking. Please dont use your platform this way when you dont even understand that in versus mode skaven make noise when spawning and moving.
Could you link a video ?
EDIT: After reviewing VOD, we did quit against your group (i'm assuming it was your group, considering you came into my chat afterwards to taunt) at the very start of the match because you were heavily abusing the exploit that allowed skaven to spawn on top of you before fatshark fixed it. Exploiting bugs is lame, my guy.
I have nothing to gain by lying about my win rate, so I’m not sure what you’re referring to.
If you’re referring to the one match about the suspicious person we had, I did explicitly call out it could be a difference in balance between PvP or PvE, or it could be a bug that no one is aware of at the moment. I also asked my group to not immediately jump to hackusations around the beginning of the match.
Least cringe modded player 😂
👶😡
Modded players are Losers.
People trashing WP and sustain comps as "busted" has the same energy as Destiny players.
They're the best because they allow you to recover from mistakes, and players make lots of mistakes right now since they don't have the time or resources to optimize their play. Once the playerbase, if one survives at all, has the chance to git gud they'll be average at best.
That's what they said about DBD, but crutch perks stayed the meta until they were nerfed into the ground
@@tanker00v25 Very reasonable response.
I'm sure you get this all the time, but you have a very cute voice.
get better
Seeing all these comments about this makes me frustrated they are devoting any time to this when they could be working on releasing Darktide 1.0
Chaos wastes is the main mode of this game. Change my mind.
Toxic streamer DEMANDS fatshart SLAVES AWAY to his suggestions on changing the FOR-FUN versus gamemode to be ultra-tryhard.
There wont be enough players to implement mmr anyway
Aw man these heroes of the empire are just TOO strong against my shitty rats!!! :C
Thats total shit i like playing warrior priest and foot knight why u wanna nerf those classes haven't even tried versus yet
Versus balance is separate from Adventure/Chaos Wastes balance. Warrior Priest, Mercenary, and Foot Knight are broken as fuck in Versus. oh downed 3 of them? doesn't matter Mercenary insta revives. pounced someone while they're in gas? doesn't matter Warrior Priest bubbles them and immunes all the damage.
As someone who loves playing Sister, I really hope the staff doesn't get disabled in this mode. One lift on a player special takes you just about to the max on overheat, and for some reason she also explodes when overheating instead of her normal "take damage and wait a hot minute for it to cool down". The former is necessary for balance, I get that - although it did crush my plans of playing Sister in the way I do in PvE by just lifting every elite and special I can before applying double venom stacks on everything with my greatsword - but the latter just feels like salt in the wound on top of it. With Sister, I'm not used to managing her heat to QUITE the same degree as Sienna's careers, because once staff is on cooldown I'm very comfortable with being able to fight with just greatsword and wall, so there are quite a few times I've lifted a pouncing assassin with like no heat, then tried to shoot them with my thorns so I can stop worrying about them and focus on thinning the horde, and just one or two bursts after the massive heat generated by lifting a player made me explode. Pretty annoying and in my opinion unnecessary. Granted I've only played with randoms since none of my friends play the game, but still, staff has already been seriously handicapped in this mode, removing it at this point just gets rid of half of the reasons Sister is so good.
in PVP, a hard CC like the staff honestly should almost max out the heat bar. there's no counterplay to it, and i believe the only way to have it stay in VS healthily is to make it very risky to use. being able to spam it like we can in PVE would be HORRIBLE for the health of the game.
Who cares lol
Game is very unbalanced character wise, so good place to start would be the main game.
Bounty hunter thats what I played and you absoluty crush rats with crossbow but if i full died we lose that round thats how it was solo
Power level, hero items and difficulty setting would solve it all no player nerfs no skaven buffs just normal game with player rats at level 35 max power you unlock vs mode and each at difficulty you can only use grades of certain items like in cata and legend you can use all your vet or yellow items champion use only blue vetran only green items and recuit be recuit items now you say well players are gonna be op well the game will spawn more mobs, armored, bereskers and a boss plus the damage of said difficulty. Now you say the rats gonna be op thats where the 300 power items grades and unerfed players and nonbuffed rats apply. Offer rewards such as title achivements, high chance skin in box, borders and leaderboads placements would help reduce smufing.
tbh, putting mmr in will only divide the communtiy even more. its supposed to be a casual mode, and new peeps like me need to learn. its hard enough even know finding a game in germany, roughly 5 min usually