TR&CI 126: Almost HALF of Fblthp Decks Are Using A Bad Card That Doesn't Work With Fblthp
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- čas přidán 23. 04. 2024
- In this episode of Tough Rules & Cool Interactions, I will be talking about a question I saw pop up on a Discord server and it wasn't until I saw a bunch of people try to provide bad/wrong answers to the question that I figured it might make for a good episode. Then, I saw the EDHREC page for the Commander and saw that almost HALF of the decklists for this Commander are running a card that doesn't have a direct interaction with the Commander and I knew it is a video that should be made to try and reduce confusion on this Commander.
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Rules covered in this episode are:
202.3a
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"Sunset Arthur" by Michael Wyckoff
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#MTG #Magicthegathering #commander - Hry
This is a classic case of 0 and null being two very different things
Indeed. There are times in Magic when an absence of something does get treated as a zero, but there are other times like in this situation when that doesn't happen and an absence of something truly is just an absence and it isn't substituted with a value of zero.
I hope that number comes down fast. It showing up so high on EDHREC means that more players are likely to add it to their deck when they see it on there. It's like when a bad card is in the precon for a commander and players keep adding it to their decks down the line because it was on the early lists from being in the precon.
Yeah, it will be interesting to see how much it comes down over time. Need to set a reminder on my phone to check it in like 6 months.
Good catch! EDHRec tends to be a good showcase (and unfortunate enabler) of a bunch of nonbos, as players add them to their lists > other players see said list recommendations > the problem expands. Another example is how Blighted Agent is in 30% of Brokkos mutate decks, because people see "unblockable infect" and think how great a combo that is with a Mutate commander, but fail to realize Mutate has a specific non-human clause in its text (Blighted Agent is a Human Rogue).
Oh yeah not to mention commanders that cast from the graveyard and "enters from the graveyard" effects, ignorant of the fact that something cast from the graveyard actually enters from the stack.
I missed this episode, I think I was on a trip. Glad it popped up for me today.
I found it interesting that there are soooo many ancestral visions on the list yet no other suspend cards.
There actually is another one, Inevitable Betrayal, which is in almost as many decks as Ancestral Visions. It's a bit further down in the sorceries section.
Those two are the only mono blue, 0 mana value suspend cards ever printed. There aren't any others on the page because there aren't any others in existence.
@@Felixr2 It is strange to not see the Artifacts with Suspend, but yeah Inevitable Betrayal is on there and looks to be in around 35% of the lists out there.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Fair point
46%! That's a lot of people using a nonbo.
Yeah, I didn't think it would be THAT high when I checked. I'm sure it will come down over time as more people catch on, but still with it being that high so soon when a lot of people will be checking out its REC page, more players will be adding it.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel And Inevitable Betrayal is also on the recommends list, almost 35% right now and that is a similar fail.
@@digitalworldsvr7881 Yup, but surprisingly none of the Artifacts with Suspend, only just the two blue ones.
Lots of times, people will make a quick assumption about stuff like that and go with their (incorrect) gut. I pulled this little guy and I've thought about doing funky things with him because this ability does seem like it could lead to some edge cases (which I love)
He seems like a solid Storm option. Plot is interesting as a "save this for later" mechanic.
I've seen a few recommendations on EDHREC that do not function with the commander the way I think people expect them to, if you're looking for video ideas there may be a few videos worth of discussion around this topic. Not to mention the community service of letting people know.
For sure, that could be a running mini series. For existing Commanders that have been around for a while yet there is still a high number of lists showing cards that don't work with the Commander.
hype rules interaction!
Indeed!
Zero vs Null strikes again
Yeah, that's a very good way to phrase it, nice and simple.
EDHRec really needs a nonbo report button. 😅
It might possibly happen one day.
Onebweird interaction that i didnrnrealise worked the way it does is with x costed cards. I tried to plot dopplegang making its cost like all my mana and then was going next turn to fix my losing state but when i went to cast it it cast it for 0 not the cost thatbwas paid and i dont know why i thought it would cast the amount id previously paid as xxx but without having to pay it again. X cards and suspend arent good with fbiltwp
Was this on something like Arena or MTGO?
So, to make sure I am understanding correctly, the issue is the difference between Mana Cost and Mana Value. While Ancestral Visions has a Mana Value of 0, its Mana Cost is undefined. The same logic would apply to a card like Asmoran... , correct? It's cost is undefined until you attempt to cast it using its ability, at which point the Mana Cost becomes 1(Rakdos Hybrid)?
Sort of, Asmo always has a Mana Cost of null and her Mana Value will always be 0. She has a built in Alternate Cast for how you would normally cast her, but when you do cast her this way by paying the single Rakdos mana (whichever you pick, red or black) then her Mana Value is still 0. Sort of like how when you Overload a Cyclonic Rift, it is still a 2 Mana Value spell, despite you having paid more than 2 mana into through its Alternate Cast.
Got a question for you, happened during a game recently, one of the players controlled a Possibility Storm and then someone cast a Branch of Vitu-Ghazi for the disguise. I told them that the card type the effect would be looking for was a creature and one guy sided with me, the other two players thought that it would be looking for a land. We did a little bit of searching on google but came up with mixed answers from forums and reddit. So we decided to flip a coin and me and the other guy won the flip, so we flipped till a creature came up. What is the actual result, did we get lucky?
It would look for a land but since it says you /cast/ that card it will end up doing nothing.
It says you search until you hit a card that shares a type with the exiled card. The exiled card only has one type: land.
It is different from cards such as Reality Scramble. Scramble specifies you reveal until you hit a type that is shared with the PERMANENT. The word permanent specifically implies the game is taking a snapshot of the card's last known information on the battlefield, thus you would go until you hit a creature.
Exiled on Possibility Storm specifically means that it doesn't care what the card was on the stack, only what it is once it's gotten to exile.
@@tonysmith9905False. You would search for a creature since Possibility Storm specifically states to search for whatever the exiled SPELL's card type is, so it will use the last known information before it exiled it.
@@Enja_Near Correct, it would see it as a Creature Spell when it was on the Stack and it will use the LKI as it remembered it on the Stack and not as the card it is now in Exile. For more detailed CR on this, it is in section 608.2h.
But now how does Fblthp plot ability interact with normal cost reducers? Normally due to how plot is a special action something that say.... Reduces the cost of blue spells like sapphire medallion,would not reduce a given cards plot cost.... Even if it reduces the cost of casting normally..... Now how does that work with this guy? Since it looks at the card actual COST and not it's mana value...... That should work right? I have not been able to find this anywhere one way or the other.
Cost reducers (and increasers) only adjust the payment of a spell when you get to that part of the steps towards casting the spell, but Plot isn't casting a spell, it is just a Keyword Ability allowing you to do the Special Action of exiling it from your hand and basically marking it as being plotted. Once it has been plotted, then the game lets you cast it from Exile on a later turn when you could cast a Sorcery without paying its Mana Cost. So when you're actually casting it, you're doing so for no cost, so a reducer doesn't help there. When you Plot it, it checks the Mana Cost of the card, but again, a cost reducer doesn't actually change that, only what would have been paid at the time to make the payment.
This is essentially the same thing as people trying to snapcaster suspend spells.
Like, they try to target a card in Exile that was placed there via Suspend?
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel nah. i should clarify, when i said suspend spells i meant that as shorthand for the free ones that get played alot (hypergenesis, ancestral visions, etc). Those ones, if you target with snapcaster while they are in the graveyard, cannot be cast for zero, because they dont have a mana cost.
@@aariataarmy Ah, yes, exactly similar to that. Snappy cares specifically about their Mana Cost, not just their Mana Value.
If a card has 0 it can be plottted for free right?
Yes, if it's a card like Lotus Petal or Ornithopter, those can be plotted for free because they do have a Mana Cost of 0.