Tactics Ogre Reborn: Tier List Re-Tiered and Re-Done! (Now with More Context, Stream Video Version)
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- The last tier list had some mistakes. No. Not archers. They're fantastic. (Re-uploaded, because apparently I can't just move the Live replay into the video section?)
TIMESTAMPS FOR THOSE WHO NEED IT:
2:25 Rogue
6:49 Buccaneer
8:46 Fusilier
9:49 Cyclop
12:00 Golem
13:38 Necromancer
14:31 Lich
17:10 Gryphon
17:42 Angel Knight
21:00 Gremlin
22:10 White Knight
23:03 Knight
24:41 Knight Commander (Ozma Moh Glacius)
25:11 Cockatrice
25:43 Paladin (Lanselot Hamilton)
27:29 Warlock
28:51 Hydra
30:28 Ninja
32:28 Vakyrie / Rune Fencer
36:22 Cleric
39:33 Ranger (Vyce)
44:40 Berserker
47:00 Warrior
50:10 Dragoon
51:43 Terror Knight
53:48 Octopus
54:52 Wicce (Deneb Rove)
1:03:24 Astromancer (Warren Omon)
1:04:04 Patriarch
1:04:35 Priest (Catiua Povel)
1:04:44 Swordmaster
1:07:36 Lord (Denam Povel)
1:07:47 Songstress (Iuria Wolph)
1:08:29 Vartan (Canopus Wolph)
1:09:01 Shaman
1:10:08 Wizard / Enchantress
1:10:16 Beast Tamer
1:10:33 Familiar
1:10:38 Dark Priest (Catiua Povel)
1:10:44 Dragon
1:11:00 Juggernaut
1:11:56 Archer
1:12:27 Hoplite
1:13:51 Princess
Much obliged!
@@CoffeePotato You are welcome, and I do agree for making a Tier List for Fell Seal as well as the Armored Core series.
thank you cuz i wanted to go through this quickly and i dont know their damn pictures lol
Great video as always! I'd love to see a video of a detailed breakdown of your units. The classes, equipment and why your set up is as it is!
That's next on the list for next week, hopefully.
@@CoffeePotato Mr Potato .. I just discovered your channel after seeing TO-Reborn was actually a thing, via a random video suggestion on here 😙. I played the PSP version to death, 8-years ago, and got through all the amazing Content - CODA-4, etc. The amount of ‘bang for your buck’ in this game blew my mind ~ then, and now. Anyways, just wanted to thank you for your coverage and I’ll enjoy looking through everything as I figure out the major differences between old version and this remaster (I ended up buying the Reborn today, and will put it on my new Steam Deck for portable play).
One of my greatest memories in my many years of gaming was seeing Lord Tartarus gasping out, “You…you’re not from this Spoke of the Wheel, are you boy ?!” // Glorious game - thanks for everything, Mr CP ! 😊
@@AlekTrev006 I love that Tartarus line too, especially with the voice acting in Reborn , Lol.
Thank you for the updated tier list! I was busy covering the OGL drama in Dungeons & Dragons, but now that the controversy is over I am watching the videos you made during this early year!
I'm surprised they folded, I was seriously expecting to see them go all corporate ostrich and put the OGL out anyway. Might be the first good PR I've heard for them in ages 😂
Its very fun coming back to this months later and see how many things you've discovered whole new personal metas around.
The early Golem null tier rating in particular is funny given your recent rating.
Right? Think it would be derpy to do another of these already?
@@CoffeePotato I don't know. I'd try and watch if you did.
Gotta say necro is my favorite, especially after zombifying all my non uniques, necros included :D they become mage/preists with putrify, and their raise is a skill(not a spell) so u can cast/raise in 1 turn. Lich stays back for heavy artillery, super fun 50 deep in potd so far, neverending army.
Understandable
I'm going through PotD on a first run atm and Cressida has been an absolute powerhouse, even without using undead. Staff for 100MP on turn 1 into Drain Life for full MP and then her high MIND stat and concentrate has her as my debuff spammer. Even when I get those lvl50+ neutral enemies (I'm lvl36), Cressida can still hit them with poison, and they'll never attack you back unless you do direct damage for some reason. I thought the AI was supposed to get all mad if you so much as frowned at them, but apparently poison is fine in their books.
Undead Octopus
FYI - Dragoon should be higher, with 2H Swords stacking Banes with Slayer skill you can erase monsters and dragons in a single attack. I was hitting 3k-4k with mine on the right elements.
Also, as the self-proclaimed resident Lich + Swordmaster enjoyer, I'm going to throw in my 2 cents regarding whether "is Reflection underrated in Reborn." The answer is absolutely - on certain maps.
See, I've had nearly every caster boss in the entire damn game kill themselves on Reflection. If you're fighting a boss that casts a lot of high powered spells, and/or has an entourage of spellcasters, you should be taking Reflection. It's absolutely incredible - especially with Swordmasters and even better with Songstress. Their heals go straight through Reflection, as do healing potions -- unlike Draconic magic like Negate.
HOWEVER, the biggest weakness of Reflection is when you bring it against a bunch of units that hit hard with abilities. I'm talking Dragons, Gryphons, and asshats that spam Elemental Orbs. Reflection does nothing against them, and actually can be a liability.
That in no way makes Reflection a "bad" ability. On certain maps, I'm 100% convinced its the single best auto ability in the game. On other maps, it can literally lose you the round, or at least be a liability. The main thing to remember about Reflection is that abilities can be swapped on a per-round basis and you're not forced to use it on every map!
Once you get the feel for which maps to use Reflection on, and which maps to avoid it on, I'm sure you'll realize how undervalued it is. Having Nybeth (Lich Form, POTD level 100), Blackmoor, Beelzebuth, and White Mage Vepahl kill themselves on turn 2 / 3 without dealing one point of damage to them is absolute gold, and some of my more recent exploits using Reflection. But then again, their are maps inside POTD, San Bronsa (Ruins and Floating), and other places where Reflection is almost worthless and doesn't outweigh the opportunity cost of using another skill. These maps are usually filled with beasts, dragons, and melee opponents.
TLDR: Reflection is one of the best skills in the game on certain maps, and rather poor on other maps. Overall, it's definitely underrated by the average player - as are Liches in general - but the ability, much like the class, takes some thought to utilize effectively.
Vyce as a Ranger bailed me out with his sheer DPS
What dps? He doesn't have any abilities that modify or increase damage :( I struggle to even fill his 4 ability slots
@@brandondodson2954 dual daggers are really strong, if anything daggers are prob one of the best weapons in the game. use lobber + a breach item and then dual attack the next turn = gg.
@@xZeke97 I love you can basically play him as a Ninja with Lobber. Either breaching foes or just spamming Grenades until you apply Curse and Fear from Bruisers and Mages for him to clean up. I also love he and Azelstan can allow your squad to double up on this kind of unit. Or Fusilier if you want a more traditional build for Ranged Physical that don't have access to Double shot and Tremendous Shot. Edit: I will say just to acknowledge Ranger's "uniqueness" you would have to give them an extra item slot or two to bump them into anything above the Good but....-tier
And it makes me want them to give another pass on Monsters should they ever patch the game again, cuz a Beast Tamer or two can facilitate a lot of BS as well with lobber. I'm really loving their choice to give such a powerful utility to classes that could leverage it the most as far as having different Squad Builds. Kinda wanna do a Beast Lord Denam with generics when I go on my no incap run.
Damage per second in a turn based game 🤔
@Zeke yeah but both denam and ozma do dual daggers twice as good. There's no reason to even use vyce that way sadly. Lobber and better rt/stats than the lobber competition is the only draw.
🧙🏼♂️ Heyyyy friend! ✨
Hoooowdy, pal!
@@CoffeePotato 🧙🏼♂️ Yyyyyhaaaaaa! Yei Yei!! ✨✨
And Liches have the additional boon of having Hellhound Summon Magic in Reborn.
Though I’m not quite sure why they didn’t think to take it further and give Liches, Princess and Dark Priest Catuia all the summon magics anyway
(except for giving Dark Priest Wisplight since Catuia can’t use any Divine spells at all as a Dark Priest anyway for some reason)
But it’s pretty fantastic anyway
idk end game my wicce deals a lot more damage than my archers lol. I like archers early game where their damage is good. Late game they still have utility with charm bows and knockback. I would not put them as "Elite" - unless I'm missing something that ups their damage in CODA
Archers, Shaman/Matriarch/Liches, are my to go to classes on late game/CODA. Basically, summon spells and archers are the best to clear stages.
You're not. Well. You kinda are. If you build a team around archers and exploit the damage mitigation formula, they can do good damage. Or you could just bring shamans and kill everything from further away.
They get access to tons of very specific bonuses and the ability to quintuple damage. Essentially if they are used right, they can one-shot any enemy outside of maybe Final Tarty through multiplication nonsense. Their gimmick is that they're basically a floodgate. They have the highest single hit damage in the game, and can hit many times per round, but opening those gates works differently in different situations. So early on using a Bowgun for stun works, or using them for Element snipes works, but this can eventually look like hard countering Ice and Water entirely, plus whichever element you use for bow and personal.
It's weird and quirky, they adapt differently in different situations, but it's that versatility to adapt that makes me rank them so highly.
Ji’yglas set with fully upgraded Ji’yglas Bow is solid damage against most things aside from a scant few particularly tanky classes.
Especially with a Dark Affinity character.
The only problem with Shamans is that they’re kind of a one trick pony compared to any other Magic User class. But boy do they do that one trick particularly well.
Or well technically a two trick pony with Starfall type Spells doubling as AOE Damage and Exorcism all in one.
Woulda been nice to have them non-dark Support spells back for them to use though.
But I woulda put them in High/Dependable tier at least.
So the thing is that it's the spell, not the class. Any high end caster will have more or less the same result strategically. Weak units are overkilled, medium bulk are just just killed, and heavies can take it, unless crits get involved. Unlike their peers, though, their schtick is overkill, which is nice, but doesn't change the strategy of the situation as much as their lack of any defense does. Plus....Valks and Patriarchs can multi element and cover their defenses ...Valks and Liches can basically cast without ever tiring more consistently.... I think what they needed is something like the Songstress got. Increase their AoE with a better version of Nature's Touch, like Nature's Wrath or something. It would line up with their SNES setup better, too.
@@CoffeePotato Ehh if you ask me the AOE of high end spells is wide enough as is it. But at the same time being able to have the radius of say Empower Dragon/Beast IV on a Spell would be kinda fun lol.
Warlock/Witch has Gordian Key and Golem Bane going for them for anti Golem purposes.
And they have Empower Golem if you’re gonna use Golems at all.
Which includes Pumpkinheads btw. So Empower Golem on some Pumpkinhead Berserkers can pull some craziness lol.
True. Pumpkins are their best trait for sure. Gordion and Golembane are just weird because at the same time that they are spending an action to remove the thing's defense and damage it (If they can afford the MP cost to do so), they could have just killed it with poison. It's been their easy counter for ages.
I’d love some shorter videos. Love the content, but longer ones are harder to get through. Maybe cut out top ten class list that’s 10 min?
Either way, love the content :)
I try to do a mix, there was just an opening for this stuff this week.
I know they aren't specifically classes, but what are your views on Skeletons and Ghosts this time around in Reborn? I'm in chapter 3 law at the recruitable necromancer fight and I was considering using some of the skeles and ghosts.
Love em. They're straight upgrades in most situations. The AI rarely carries Exorcism of any kind. Usually it's only things like Starfall and Banish that can even kill them.
@@CoffeePotato I'm thinking he means instead of using a zombie. I feel like the addition of zombies in the PSP version made ghosts/skeletons redundant.
I did Chaos route on my first playthrough of Reborn, and changed Arycelle into a ninja immediately upon recruitment.
I later turned Hobyrim into my archer.
That'll work, got your own little Hawkeye Gough!
Great content and I think you're insights are really good but as I think even commented on in the video it's way too long and a little all over the place in the streaming format for someone who wants to watch it in the video. I'd probably recommend doing two separate takes on this. One on stream and one just recording a CZcams video so you can cut it down to 30 minutes or so. I found myself battling to stay engaged.
I've tried to do that more, this is an older one
@@CoffeePotato Ah, I haven't had a chance to fully view all your content but glad to see you've been embracing it! Glad you engage with your audience well though!
@@komradeklutch6215 I try. I'm busy with the kids most of the time, but I try to get to it all
Vyce is a solid dual wield fighter or One Hand Melee+One Hand Bow skirmisher that has Lobber.
Or can make an alternative Ji’yglas Set user.
Though using Two-Handed Fusils just seems pointless for him if you ask me lol. Not really anything to set him apart from a Fusilier in that instance other than maybe his magic defenses being better.
I didn’t even think about The Heavenly General Weapon+Earring Combo for Elemental Shots. That would be some hella broken AOE damage lol.
True, but there's nothing he can do outside of the lobber bomber that is truly his thing. Like the Jiggy ranger is good, but the Jiggy Archer does it better. He doesn't get Trem/Eagle/Double. Stats may give him maybe 60 more damage, but those skills could give him thousands more when stacked by that point. Definitely true on the fusillier. Buccaneer handles double hitting better. Lobber Bomber is awesome, but at the same time it's a slight bump up from the Beast Tamer that's been rocking that role with hilariously better weapon and skill access for chapters by that point XD. He's weird for sure, but he's trying.
I feel basically obligated by my concious to put this in every one of these. Valkys cannot replace and will not replace shamans. Valkys cannot do the same damage because they cannot keep uptime (even with their mp skill, they cannot cast as often as shamans, meditate 4 wins). Valkys get more options, if anything they should be doing other things that summoning most of the time, the real deal breaker is mage armor and mp staffs. valkys cant get those. Valkys are high or even top tier, but they dont replace shamans, Shamans are S tier too. I did not feel compelled at all to turn sisters into liches, however I did turn deneb into a shaman. Valkys are A-S tier for their ease+boon support + situational summon on a single unit, extremely versatile, not as good as their specializations.
#MAGEGEARMATTERS lol
I have come a bit more around on archers, I accept their dependable ranking but personally because of how hard they are to use for an early game I put them B rank instead of A rank but that's me.
also minor but I still think dual daggers on ranger + lobber breach is still extremely effective, it is a simple class but daggers carry it IMO. B tier for me, same with warlocks and angel knights, they are all above necros and ninjas
Comes down to preference. Mage gear is nice, but extremely limited. They can't tailor defense, so they can't control aggro. Even something like the Caldia would be huge for them, but they don't even get the finished coverage or Parry from that. Valks get several layers in that regard, not only having higher defenses in general, but controlling who they need to worry about. Stacking with Meditate, on the high end they're basically seeing 90+ to Med 4's 56. While it's a range, generally I never see them running out, while most other casters want setup time. It's not a huge deal, but I don't like down time.
If someone needs a dedicated spammer, great. It'll only take 40 battles, several uniques, and some drop hunting. Or I can just use this one that was already on hand, and can do anything else too.
That's a nice hammer, but this toolbox does everything else and also has a slightly smaller hammer is my point, I suppose 🤣
But, different strokes and all that!
@@CoffeePotato Having status and defensive moves as a preference is fine, my comment is more about "replacement". a replacement means you can just discard a and always use b. a is null because b exists, they do the same thing but better, that's a replacement. My comment here is that valkys are not replacement for shamans, liches/patriarchs are, valkys don't play out the same, they are not the same type of unit.I felt wrong when i used summon2 on my rav valky, it didn't hit as hard, it felt like a waste vs the triple hit spear attack. valkys are not built to properly exploit how strong summon2 is. its there for situaional use IMO, after that I turned my rav into a white knight.
A Item that gives people resistance I need this IRL😂
Ahh yes Catuia as a Princess. She could use some Intelligence and Mind Charm use from the PotD but she is fantastic.
Especially having access to Wisplight and Major Heal + More Mage equipment options this time around.
Solid physical combat stats as well if you particularly want to capitalize on her being a Magic-Knight.
I like gearing her as more like a Light Mage that also does tertiary Healing/Support and that happens to have a Sword in her off-hand as well for parrying and some melee combat in a pinch.
Would have been extra sweet if she coulda got Mother’s Blessing for Princess and Priest
I disagree with your valkyrie and shaman placement. Valkyries int /mind stat makes them low end magic damage. Shamans get +5 spell range and engulf. You can basically snipe whatever target you want from complete safety. Valks are good, but spell range and area effects are so damn strong in this game.
Once you get gear with +100 mana use, you will at most only have 1 turn every 10 that you might not have mana to cast
Comes down to preference in my book. I prefer armor options and endless MP. Range is fine, having some of the worst gear options in the game is not (they don't even get the Caldia, when almost every other caster can use one for coverage and defense.).
@@CoffeePotato I think that valks are amazing until you get summons in POTD. Once this happens, the range boosts available via cudgel and book make casters so incredibly powerful that there is no reason to even use anything else for damage. Valks still have swiftness, but even this comes on gear later. I run Lord / buccaneer (they can both use the haste gauntlets) and the rest caster. So yes, for 90% of the game valks are better than Lich/Shaman.
Oh and using winged ring /boots gets rid of all movement weakness. The dps output for a 45 mana spell with the range makes most encounters a joke. AKA turn on the AI and watch them win with no input needed.
@@MrKULVIS I'd say it depends. Range is nice, but it's not everything, and not the only way of exploiting range. Personally I'd much rather have the gear options and infinite MP of the Valk. Range doesn't matter when you can tailor your armor to resist or be unappealing for whatever is on hand. At that point they're just a tick in the front line, attacking for free.
@@CoffeePotato The best part of this game is that most the classes can be utilized throughout the whole game, it begs for creativity! Unless your an octopus, they can just swim off into the sunset and nobody would notice.
@@MrKULVIS undead octopus
"Ranger can kill Ravness with a single bolt."
Actually that's Assassin :p
Ouch.
Thanks for the tierlist really helpfull. Is there a guide for finding crafting recipes?
He made a video a while ago about crafting!
No, but it's easier to just say "do the temples, do POTD 1-25 a couple of times, and you'll have all but Secrets of the Master and Jewelry 3. Jewelry 3 is San Bronsa. Just do San Bronsa a few times, it's a pinata of goodies, no point just sticking to one map. Secrets of the Master is POTD 100.
I like having Ozma set up with either Mighty Impact or Dual Wielding, Intimidate, and Ivory Tower.
Though I feel she should maybe have access to more weapons than she does just because.
Also it feels like the Magic part of her maybe coulda been a bit better too
Though an occasional back up heal or throwing out an attack spell when she’s not in melee range of an enemy in melee is alright I guess lol
But Knight Commander not having Meditate as an option kinda hurts lol.
But her skill selection is swell otherwise on top of her having the fastest RT bonus out of anyone
@Coffee Potato I just want to update you (in case you didn't know) that the Songstress Regeneration ability and Poised Arabesque works like Harvest Dance: it ignores Reflection and continues to heal even while Reflection is active. So if you throw out a Regeneration song and bolster the Lich's healing with Swordmaster's Harvest Dance and their own Drain Heart, you should typically not have an issue with survivability.
Also, Liches have a ton of value when resurrected and have a mere sliver of HP - probably because they're designed to have the lowest HP in the game anyway. It's a little bizarre how effective they are with a sliver of HP. But that's a digression from my main point; just a side observation.
Yes, if you enjoy using Priest or Cleric with Mother's Mercy to cast hard healing in the late game, then Reflection could be a liability (unless the caster is at extremely low HP, in which case you can use Reflection to bounce ALL the total healing back at the caster and go to full HP!) However, if you're more into Healing Over Time, or item healing, or abilities that nuke and heal, or abilities like First Aid, than Reflection is going to synergize.
We may disagree about your perspective on Reflection, but I love you all the same! Thanks for fostering a community based around Tactics Ogre; the community is what is truly valuable, far after the game it is based around is long gone.
Good stuff, that makes a ton of sense.
Man i love you and your passion for this game. But your videos drag on too much maybe trim and edit a little?
Thank You! Indo every now and then, this one was a stream, in order to do them live. Also trimming and processing the videos to get all the random bits and pieces out can be a full day project, that's why it often gets left for a while.
I have put the time marks, my friend.
o_O well update 1.001 to tierlist. guess ill listen to it again.
The only tactics ogre game I played was knights of Lodis when I was a kid. So, I can be considered relatively new to the series.
Here is the biggest issue I have with the video.
It feels too long because it has a lot of information that a new player would not understand and a lot of information that’s useless to an experienced player. It also feels unstructured. A good structure would include pros, cons, and the reason why they’re on that tier. It should limit it to 20 mins
Sounds about right, welcome to the channel!
@@CoffeePotato thanks to you, I can’t put down this game
Paladin Lanselot absolutely should have been given access to more Divine Spells. And maybe Mother’s Blessing.
Also it would have been sweet if we could have a Relic version of Lombardia for him to play with lol
Making Lanselot a Lich would feel wrong to me lol
Need more MOTBQ! He can be forced to be a high allignment Vampire just for the memes.
lord class type is great for all class type skills
Good work
Quick question, will apostate cancel the trigger of speed star? cause I've noticed that when character has apostate triggered then there's no chance speed star would trigger. please help me cause I really wanna do tanky frontline buccaneer build but if apostate blocks speed star then I'll go for HP boost...
Apostate, No, Evade, Yes. Everything is classed as Physical or Magical. Fun note: Recruit is Physical, and you can talk to somebody to remove their shield, if it hits 😂
@@CoffeePotato that's great to hear lol and also a fun fact as well, thanks for your reply OwO
In all seriousness, do you have the full picture of the gremlin? The profile pic looks like he’s wearing a puffy vest made of his own scales. I can’t tell what’s going on.
I do, but for some reason when I tried to use my cheap free Photoshop alternative, it kept reading the lines in between as empty space, and wouldn't quite come out right. So, Sanic Vyce it is. 🤣
Nice tier list!
Thank you!
Uhh, still don't see the live replay chat.
How do you get a patriarch? Is just an upgraded lizard man?
You kill other Patriarchs. They're not too common, but you'll usually see a couple drops during the story.
I'm on chapter 4, what class you would recommend for Denim? Warrior feels very basic, but i'm attracted to white night although i already have bunch of them.
Depends. Lord is basically every class but Fusilier at once, but otherwise it's just whatever you feel like. I like keeping him as a Scorpion Fencer for some runs, Knight others, Warrior others, classes don't really fall off, they find a new role as the game goes on.
@@CoffeePotato Thanks for the response. I have him as a terror knight. Feels good. I couldn't figured out this game without your guides.
I just recruited a warlock and a witch, but are wizards better?
Depends. Warlocks get draconic trickery and Golem stuff, Wizards are basically the speed casters.
@@CoffeePotato Do warlocks get better stats? Like, is it good to level as a warlock and change back into a wizard?
The best thing Ranger can do is switch to a different class
I'd say ouch, but I'm already agreeing, Soo...
Hey man glad to see you're doing well. Sounds like rebirth worth a go?
Liches reflect ability is one of the best skills in the game. I run 2 liches, a wicce 4 shamans and dark priest. The whole group is constantly getting covered in reflect. Ive seen enemies just kill themselves because the AI is dumb and attacks into it.
Depending on the map, I use 4-6. They can completely replace Shaman, and have never let me down. I suggest replacing your Shaman with Liches (with comparable gear and charms, of course) and seeing how that works for you.
@@TheJinnobi I like having a decent element spread. Only reason I use Wicce is because I refuse to switch her after how much of a pain it was to get. I turned Cressida to Lich asap though.
@@MrKULVIS Wicce is one of the 3 classes that get access to nullify strike, I love that spell and I think its a great addon for a more support oriented build. giving frontliners immunity is very nice.
Kinda sucks that the CODA characters are underwhelming. Especially all the work you do to get Warren.
It's weird, because they're better, it's just hard to sell something that locked away
What skill's do you recommend using on Cyclops?
Howl, Dash, Stinky Feet, Constitution
Slapping Shaman, the best class in the game, in C tier is just being contrarian at this point. No. Valkryie's garbage int and range do not make them as good (Do valks even get Nature's Touch?). Nature's Touch alone also makes them better than Lich (Nature's touch doesn't benefit dark/light spells and the matching element bonus is huge). Killing things from across the map in complete safety is the best form of CC, not having archer and hoping the map lets you fire down.
Liches are not limited to Dark element. I have a Lich which is Ice, and I'm sure if I tried I can find wild Liches with other elemental types. However, Curse -- which Shaman do not get -- increases the critical strike chance of Hellhound/Abyss/Diablo/everything else that deals damage, which is a huge bonus to average DPT.
Also, using the elemental weakness of a unit has more impact than matching an elements of the skill and the user. That fact, combined with the higher intellect of Lich, makes the damage differential between Shaman and Lich negligible.
But even more importantly, Liches have *far* more utility than Shaman; and by utility I mean less "this is convenient" and more "this is going to making a win dramatically easier."
I realize that Shaman are hyped by OG players of PSP and/or SNES, but the reality is that Shaman are not a top tier class in Reborn.
@@TheJinnobi you're mostly wrong .
Liches /are/ locked to dark. Try charming them. Try making them. You'll find that they're dark. There is an exception, an ice lich that can sometimes spawn on Hollowed Grounds. You can recruit them but.... why would you? They're worse than a dark lich because...
Liches cannot use elemental summons. And elemental summons, with nature's touch, are why shamans are so broken (that, and their RT, which is loads better than a lich). The fact that you're acting like that's not an issue for ice lich tells me you didn't bother looking into what you're saying much.
You're also mistaken about elemental weaknesses when it comes to spells. Elemental Finishers that align with a target's weakness would be right, they just get a 100% damage boost (barring Ozma's person whip one). Spells? The boost for matching element is like 40% spell power, where the boost for hitting their weakness is only 30%~ damage boost. Hitting weaknesses while giving up same element boost is typically going to be very similar.
But, let's say I misread the dataminers on reddit. Let's say elemental weakness did give more damage. Guess what? Liches.... only get that advantage against Light element units- because summons are what break the game They can't use elemental summons but Shamans can. So even by your own metric here, Shamans can exploit weaknesses in a way a lich cannot.
And, like Coffee, you try focus on 'utility' while ignoring one important fact: the actual way to win 'dramatically easier' is to kill all of the enemy units before they can do anything to you. That's why Shamans are the best class. They're fast, they win in damage in most situations,(Nature's touch+Same element+Elemental summons), do that damage from range(which valks don't)... and generally do it to such an obscene extent that they don't /need/ buffs, debuffs, and fluff to get the job done.
I realize that Shamans are a very boring class because all they do is damage and that it's disappointing to have such a clear winner after Reborn's varied early and mid game.... but that's how the game works.
BTW, this doesn't mean liches are bad. They're very good. Just not as good as shamans. And, lucky for liches, there's room on teams for them to help Shamans be even better.
@@Rainsoakedcoat Aight, let's take this step-by-step.
1) I didn't say that Liches can change their element freely. I said that you can find "wild Liches" (a reference to Pokemon) that aren't Dark element. You're trying to prove to me something I already know.
2) Shaman are not "broken" by using Summons. I understand Summons are good, but that isn't the only powerful form of advanced magic. Being potent against a single target is great, but AoE spells are excellent too.
3) Shaman have 5 less WT than Liches, which is insignificant when the unit's total RT is calculated. Also, Shaman can't use Paradigm Shift, which can be incredibly useful at boosting your turns.
Besides, Liches being slower kind of implies something. I'll leave it to our readers to figure that out.
4) Claiming that Summons are the sole spells that break the game is laughable. You're acting as if Apocryphal and Draconic offensive spells are irrelevant - which they are not. It's funny - as in both odd and hilarious - that so many people I've spoken with say Shaman are broken because of their "insane AoE" while you're trying to tell me that Shaman are broken because of their insane single target. You guys really need to make up your minds.
5) Having an elemental strength also means you have an elemental weakness. You're conveniently ignoring that for every unit that Shaman get a damage bonus against, they also have a damage deficiency against.
6) One Lich casts the massive AoE Curse spell on 5-6 units, and all those units are going to die faster than any Shaman is attacking - whether those units being attacked have an elemental weakness to Shaman or not. Why? Because Curse not only significantly reduces the targets HP, but also significantly increases the targets chance to be critically hit (for 100% more damage). Since summon spells are multi-hit spells, this sharply increased chance to critically strike is a large damage boost; especially when considered over the course of attacking ~5-7 units being affected.
What your argument ultimately boils down to is this: "at a certain level of power, debuffs and utility are unnecessary." Which I would agree with. All strategy becomes meaningless in the face of overwhelming power. You're not going to outsmart or outmaneuver a nuclear bomb half a second from impact.
The issue is that you're attributing Shaman far too much power. In the latter, most challenging fights in the game, you aren't going to be casually one-shotting anything with no debuffs or setup. Hell, even Nature's Touch is a setup which depends on a a proc.
Shaman aren't bad units, but their moderately higher damage with summons against units weak to their element is offset by their moderately less damage against units strong against their element; their significantly lower chance to critically hit than a Lich; their severe lack of relevant utility compared to a Lich, and their relatively small movepool compared to a Lich.
If I can't convince you - which unfortunately I'm not counting on - I hope to be able to at least convince other readers that may stumble across these messages. And I hope you have a good day, regardless of our differing outlooks!
Omg I want that ice lich sooo bad! Is it only found in the PG story battle or a chance to spawn at any time?
@@TheJinnobi I want to correct one thing here, I do agree liches are S tier, and I do agree that curse + summon is basically as good as NT + elemental summon, hell I do agree they are better, but IMO while you can argue one is better than the other it doesn't really matter, they are both VASTLY superior to everything else. So the thing I believe you got wrong here is the aoe aspect.
Shamans popularity is 100% because of summon and summon2. I do believe that summon2 invalidates basically every other offensive spell except curse. You can run summon1 (For smaller aoe) summon2, and only that and probably do top dps in at least 3/4 situations. forbidden 2 is nice, but the amount of scenarios where you actually have enough people to outdamage summon2 is not as often.
Shamans, patrairchs, matriarchs, liches, princess, lord (well not lord since he is more like a valky but extremely better, but he wears ogre for me so that's different) etc these are all top tier units because they have access to the ridiculous range and can just safely spam summon2 map wide. its an effective all encompassing strategy that basically beats every single map in this game, no exceptions. its not about one shotting, its about just damage per turn and how often can they cast it.
So yes saying that summon2 single handedly breaks the game is an accurate statement to me IMO, other than starfall for the exorcise utility, curse for the curse utility, every other spell is just inferior. So yes their tool kits are small, yes their options are basically non existent, but who cares. point, shoot, damage.
Woulda been nice if Divine Knights had access to Heal and maybe Major Heal type spells. And maybe Starfall since they could do that in PSP I think.
Also them not being able to use Spears is kinda bullshit considering Angel Knight had preference for Spears in the OG LUCT lol.
I’ll apply that to Warriors too they should have been allowed Spears as well lol
nice vid keep the content coming gl!
EDIT: ALSO what a build for a warrior look like im very intrigue about what u said about them
Soldier with claymore and the 100% accuracy skill. You’ll be keeping at least one unit breached and you’ll have that ranged wind finisher.
@@rottenmeat5934 Claimore +1, to be exact. Or Zveihander +1.
Depends on when. Early on, crits and elemental strengths make them solid. Mod game, Cat Claws+, Zwei/Claymore, just any debuff weapon works great. End game, anything with a split element moveset can be fantastic. Dagger/Hammer, Sword/Bow, Axe/Crossbow for elemental coverage, while elemental weapons start working really well with Vigorous and Double for that extra 200-odd averse damage in the late game.
@@CoffeePotato ty for the answer, cheers !
I'm starting to believe that people are just BSing about being able to recruit enemy units during battle. I've been playing this game for 20+years and not once have I had recruit ever succeed. And god knows I've tried.
What skills are you using to do it? Each racial type has a different recruit type, and it's an extremely good skill in all versions.
Ehh I think you’re overrating poison a little. Yes it does 10% of the target’s Hp for Damage per tick but it also takes a little time for it to do it’s thing.
Where as with Dragon Slayer and Beast Slayer you can do really big hits all at once against said Dragons and Beasts. And then stack that with the Banes if you desire.
True, but only if you are close and already set up to do so. Poison is more of a Fire and Forget type of convenience, allowing both of those setup turns to be used for similar numbers, at range. Slayer Crossbows or Longbows can certainly achieve the biggest hits in the game eventually, but I like to rate these for their most common strategic applications over anything else.
Hey @coffee potato, I didn't expect to see another tier list. Thanks for all the work you put into delivering quality content for Tactics Ogre.
I also want to thank for you for not bowing to the pressure Shaman fanatics attempt to put on you. For me, Liches will always be my favorite class (after using them a while, I completely fell in love). Even though their skill cap is far higher than Shaman, they simply do far more than Shaman: providing an order of magnitude more utility plus comparable damage via Curse + Hellhound / Abyss / Diablo -- and Nature's Touch + Elemental attacks, which Curse also affects.
Some people are bound to disagree with some of your placements (hell, even I think Swordmasters should be higher, as I've consistently used them since unlock to nearly 100% completion) but that doesn't mean I insist upon you adopting my perspective. I already know that Swordmasters are a specialist unit that requires a certain build to untap their potential, which means they don't belong in the same tier as something powerful right out of the box. But some people just don't get that.
In any case, ignore the haters and please realize that most people appreciate you and the individuals with the most criticism always say more than the people who enjoy your content; which is why complaint boxes are always full and compliment boxes are always half full, even in the best of restaurants. And your videos are delicious lol.
Now enough fanboying. Get back to work!
P.S. -- After weeks of experimenting, I am convinced that Curse does indeed increase the critical strike chance of all units attacking the Cursed target. I hope that information helps you in some way!
P.P.S. -- Liches can absolutely use Hellhound I and Hellhound II. I do it literally every day.
Not sure why this rumor has spread.
The liches cant summon only the early days in the discord when we were learning the game we thought they could not summon at all but found out they had access only to dark summon, that rumour died pretty quick in my circles at least.
Keep in mind I love his content and no of what I say is hate, its disagreement. A comment here not insistent that he should change his mind, its saying what my mind is and why. I don't like the "i don't think this is true" = "hate",if so people cant have discourse like that. I read a lot of comments here and honestly the whole discussion around TO is part of what makes its community so great. We share cool builds, agree on some things, disagree on another, that's how it works. I read a lot of comments here and honestly the whole discussion around TO elevates the game so i welcome it
@@xZeke97 Yeah man I completely agree with you. People on the internet face the challenge of constant communication without the advantage of face-to-face context via body language, verbal tone and inflection, etc -- which is why it's so important to assume the best about people who have given you no reason to think they're attacking you.
I appreciate games that have good communities. And, IMO, Tactics Ogre has one of the best communities build up around it. I'm glad to be in good company. Some games I will not name have toxic-ass communities that makes playing the game a more lonely affair than it has to be.
Thanks for the reply, Zeke
I have no idea either, plus Liches can basically use Hellhound like the shamans use the elements at comparable power without spending a slot for Nature. Diabdoge and debuffs was my Lich for ages.
is knights really better than white knights?
Depends on what you need. Knights get Phalanx, making them the far better defender, while the WKs are far more offensively orientated.
@@CoffeePotato i made denam into a dragoon because dragons are so strong..
What would you rank matriarchs?
Elite. They’re the same as Patriarchs.
They're the same as Patriarchs
can all types of stats can be grind or farmed ?
They can, but it's going to be a lot easier to hit on weaknesses.
@@CoffeePotato including Agility stats?
I think you mean you've "said your piece" not that you've "made your peace" with Archers. You might have "made your argument", but that's not making peace with something.
I might have said "said" weird, wouldn't have been the first time 🤣. Also could have said that, been asked to reconsider liking them since launch.
No way i will follow a video this long when you can't bother to put time marks
That's absolutely fair.
I have put the time marks, my friend.
Ninjas were OP in the classic version.. they sucked in this version
Nah, just gotta use em right. Their OP factor shifted from over scaling swords to % damage off of guaranteed debuffs.