Making the BEST PROXIES for Card Games!
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- čas přidán 3. 07. 2022
- Hello and welcome, today's video chronicles the fruits of many an hours labour, as we test and create the ultimate proxy for card games. We hope you enjoy!
See below for examples of the equipment I used throughout:
Inkjet Printer - amzn.eu/d/dd4eaEX
Thinner Glossy Photo Paper - amzn.eu/d/eRPAOnR
Thicker Glossy Photo Paper - amzn.eu/d/aPQ26tY
Matte Laminating Pouches - amzn.eu/d/eN5MrHX
Gloss Laminating Pouches - amzn.eu/d/7GminSU
Corner Puncher - amzn.eu/d/ge58mgL
Photoshop Templates
Card Front - drive.google.com/file/d/1Ns1x...
Card Back - drive.google.com/file/d/1NJ04...
Follow us on:
/ dicevscards
/ dicevscards
/ dice-vs-cards-33502115... - Hry
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This is actually an absolutely fantastic video detailing how you came to choose the optimal print-at-home cards!
Thank you so much for your work!
Thank you, yeah it took some time to get to the point I did but I'm happy I can now proxy to a standard I'm more than happy with.
Thank god for your video. I bought some supplies for some projects and it was a hot mess. You saved me alot of time and money figuring it all out and not having to buy even more different papers in different weights and laminates to figure it all out.
Yoooo. Finally someone that didn't just print out a flimsy piece of paper and slapped it in a sleeve or glued it to another card. Finally someone that took the time to get that feel and texture down. Good shit mate
Its both a blessing and a curse, I don't like to settle for half measures and I'm pleased with the outcome so thank you for your kind words, I'm glad you appreciated the time and effort spent.
there is absolutly a need for an in depht tutorial on this for sure! Even tho this video already goes through a lot of the stuff we need to get started! tysm for doing this!
Seriously, how do I make the backs bigger in Photoshop
I'm very very slowly but surely working on it, watch this space.
Having done this work in parallel, spot on. Thanks and cheers!
Thank you kindly, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I'm a first time visitor to this video and your channel, so I'm incredibly late to the party. Thank you so much for going to the effort of this video and uploading it. It's is a resource!!
I'm sad there aren't more videos like this on your channel
On the fence but am now working on custom draft sets. Excellent info
Good video, I was searching how can I make some cards since I would like to print some artworks I like in a form of TCG cards ^_^. Anyway I was thinking to buy the Epson 8700 or an EcoTank, can you tell me how many sheets the cartridges of your 8700 can tecnically print until they use up (considering printing all the sheets with 3x3 cards)? Do you think if I apply some holographic sheet sticker in the cards can I laminate them safely or do you think the plastic will melt?
Hmm, very interesting video about making proxies in-depth. I will definitely try the methods you used in your video, keep up the good work!
Thank you, yes it took a lot of work but I'm happy with the standard....at least for my purposes. Good luck if you do give it a go, or because it took me forever to respond to this comment I hope it worked for you if you did 😉
Thanks for this. Going to use this for some fun buisness cards
I love your ideals! A perfect proxy shouldn't be reliant on a card sleeve. One thing I don't see in your process is experimenting with extra lamination steps. On the channel of "Martin Gonzalvez", after the sheet comes out of the laminator, he flips it over and puts the sheet right back in the laminator for thoroughness on the bonding.
Yeah looking good in a card sleeve is gonna be enough for some but it became a bit of a quest in the end to try and make it look and feel as legit as I possibly could.
Apologies if I didn't make it explicit I tend to put it through the laminator once and then flip it over and do the same again, the reasoning being that if their happens to be any possibility of warping because one side is exposed to slightly different heat or exposure to the room conditions that putting it through both sides up will help mitigate that as well as helping with adhesion like you've mentioned.
@@DicevsCards So that is the case! Awesome, thanks!
i can relate to every concern in this video, this exact rabbit hole is my home
Oh my gosh, seeing all the sheets laid out and labeled reminds me of myself. I have quite a collection of papers in various weights and coatings, laminates, labels, and the alike. I am still on a quest for the perfect paper.
Koala is in my stash and I love their paper, however, my 8.5x11 sheets warped in storage in a bad way. They weren't coated on both sides.
Yeah I definitely went down the rabbit hole on this one. Yeah I've learnt not to go near one sided photo paper for that very reason, although the last ream I bought did have some minor warping so I suppose its just luck of the draw sometimes.
This is an excellent video. Im so glad you did the work and posted this. I aspire to buy a high level printer and do the same.
Thank you kindly, let us know how you get on!
@@DicevsCardsThanks! I get a $500 rebate through my company for computer expenses and know someone who works at a store that sells what im looking for. Should be only a few hundred with all the savings ill be getting on it. And now that ive seen your method, that saves me time and money looking for the best process, or a process im happy with.
This was great, nice to see your process.
I'm now a new subscriber, ignore the haters
Excellent, I'm glad you enjoyed it, welcome to the channel!
Don't worry you take what you can from criticism and then move on 😉
I would like a step by step. Because even now, I'm still not sure what process you used in all your testing. But I appreciate you doing all the tests. I was ready to go that too at this point.
Thanks for your feedback, if there's anything in particular I can help you with in the short term let me know but I'm definitely coming back to this topic at some point.
Great video! I've always gotten the local printing shop to do up my proxies, but this video has reignited my dream of doing them myself. Question, what's the most efficient way to cut the cards? I used to use a steel ruler and a box cutter - gets a bit slow and I do make mistakes, sometimes.
Thanks I'm glad you enjoyed it and its inspired you to give it a go. I must admit I've never used a steel ruler and a box cutter, I suspect if you became proficient with it it could be quicker than what I use, which is just a paper cutter/guillotine, which may do a better job in terms of the paper not slipping, it certainly gives me confidence placing it and then abutting to the raised measure that it comes with. I suppose each way has its merits though so long as you commit to the cut once you've started. Best of luck though, let me know how you got on.
@@DicevsCards Thanks for the reply, very useful again! So I started experimenting, and it does seem likely that a guillotine cutter is the way to go. Despite being extremely careful, the blade-and-steel ruler approach gives rise to slightly rough card edges (180gsm, non-laminated - was curious to start somewhere and see how the glossy cardstock would look like with laser printing). I must say your video absolutely instilled this measure of "aspiration" - I must have professional-looking proxy cards too!
I'll start shopping for a proper guillotine cutter. One more question: have you used this type of cutter extensively? Not all guillotine cutters are created equal, presumably, so was curious to see if there's a brand / range you might be able to recommend.
@@yihyang I don't have a brand in particular - I've actually went back the manual route of cutting my cards via ruler and box cutter because the guillotine cutters I've experimented with all varies. Most handles aren't slicing consistently enough when you push down. The handles tend to have wiggle room allowing some cuts to not be aligned.
I'd say, buy a high quality one. Experiment with it and see how it cuts. Adapt to its flaws and re-evaluate whether or not its worth keeping. Return it if needed (ask about return policy first when purchasing it).
I've been making my own card games and proxies for quite some time before I discovered this video - all in the same way too - so, I'd say I have enough credentials to provide a reliable method.
you are amazing!!! thank you!
You're very welcome.
would have been real great if you would stack a 100 card stack side by side. 100 original MTG cards. 100 220gsm+lamination. 100 180gsm+lamination. thickness is a consideration when looking at deckboxes. Thank you for the great video. My friends dont understand my fascination to find the ultimate proxy method. By, do you use a Mini Rotary Rolling Paper Cutter/paper Trimmer for the cutting process? or you use an expensive dedicated docucutter machine?
Thats a fair point actually I didn't give a huge amount of thought to deckboxes, they're definitely thicker, I honestly think its beyond the means of home equipment to get the same thickness and get the right feel and flex but thats not to say improvements can't be made. But I'm glad you enjoyed the video, I'll try and get a photo or something and do a side by side comparison.
I use a paper cutter yeah, I found a conveniently small one thats used for crafting that I can fit on my lap because the bigger one on the tabletop was killing my back 😀 I wish I had all that professional equipment and I've tried to use those scan 'n' cut type machines there's a margin of error when lining it up that I wasn't happy with.
I feel your pain though I think I got more eyes rolls during this project from friends and family than I have with anything else I've done for this channel, but I was really pleased with the results so its nice to hear others appreciate it.
@@DicevsCards I'm also trying to do this for magic cards. I've been told of methods where you just print using matte photo paper stock and then laminate. Haven't purchased any equipment though as I'm unsure where to start :/ lmao
@@DicevsCards If you have any amazon links for the stuff you use, I would use them to test equipment. Just let me know :) I was planning to make a purchase today
@@DicevsCards Also not to get too fancy, but I love with MakePlayingCards that you can add backs. And there are a few backings that look amazing. How has adding back arts to your proxies vs not adding them changed the results and what have you had to tweak when adding card backs? I know it would change the process a bit due to more ink, more weight, etc etc..just curious :) thanks again.
If you do end up stacking them side by side, I'd be interested to hear your experience on it and how it looks. If time allows, currently wanting to do this myself but stuck on equipment (printer mostly) prices and what not. Besides the link on video to one. Thanks for your time.
How do you go about getting the pdf into the photoshop template? I'm going to make a set for my brother and myself for Christmas
Question about your template!
Although you're using A4 paper (Legal 8.5 x 14), when I check the image and canvas size of the files, they are at a size closer to Letter size (8.5 x 11) and actually a tad smaller than that (specifically the Image and Canvas size is set to 8.267 x 11.693). I'm have an issue where I can't get the Photoshop to print to an A4 size, it always defaults to an 8.5 x 11 size paper and I'm wondering if it's because of those sizes.
Is that how it's supposed to be? Do you do any Print Setting changes on Photoshop before you start the print?
Otherwise, awesome vid and loved the American Psycho reference Lol.
I'm off to a convention so apologies if my response is hasty. A4 in Photoshop as a template is definitely 8.267 x 11.693 and is rounded to to 8.3 x 11.7 everywhere I search.
Letter as you say is only marginally different so if you're using what I would just call Legal paper (apologies its not clear) which is obviously slightly longer you should just be able to change the canvas size of the image to 2,550 x 4,200 as its in 300ppi.
Alternatively your print settings may be set to document size as Letter, could that be the problem?
I hope this helps and if you have follow up question I'll respond as soon as I can.
And thank you, you're the first person to mention the reference 😉
Wouldnt round the corners and cutting them out open the edges up to peeling and water damage?
Thank you for this video! I'm trying to make up a fan made set of cards for Star Wars Destiny. I found amazon basics laminating pouches that are 3 mils high, what weight of paper would you think I need to get the cards to the same thickness as the original FFG cards?
I take it you're already aware of the continuing committees out there for the game, A Renewed Hope and The Coruscant Inititative (not sure how active that one is) but just incase you're not they have fan content out there.
But to answer your question what I was going for was FFG/MtG style consistency so for the 3 mil, which should be 6 mil for both sides of the pouch you'll want similar to what I opted for which was 47lbs, assuming its bond paper, which I expect any photo paper to be labelled as, anything up to 53lbs would also be pretty close.
If its just conventional card stock you're buying AKA cover paper then it will be more like 65lbs, up to 74lbs will also be pretty close.
To be very clear though the actual thickness will be thicker than FFG cards due to the non industrial process and materials used with home equipment but the flex and feel is what I was primarily looking for and the above delivers that. But a deck of 30 cards like for Destiny won't be as noticeably higher when stacked as a deck.
@@DicevsCards I have heard of both of those, and as a matter of fact, I was going to try and make a full set of High Stakes made by A Renewed Hope. Because I have to make so many cards at a time, budget does come into the equation for me. I chose the 3 mils amazon basics laminating pouches because it was much more cost efficient than other brands. I recall you saying something about the shiny finish on the laminating pouches and if I'm not mistaken you went for the matt finish. I plan on sleeving all the cards when playing with the them, so do you think that the generic amazon basic "finish" will be fine in that regard? Also do you think there will be a problem if my deck contains both FFG era cards as well as the homemade ARH cards in regard to thickness and shuffling?
Yeah I’ve only ever come across matte and gloss laminating pouches and I assume the amazon basics are the latter so you should see a minor benefit in colour production and image clarity with these and then it’s obviously up to you whether you use matte or gloss sleeves over the top.
In terms of mixing proxies with the real thing I’ve only done it with MtG cards so far and I honestly can’t tell any difference with shuffling when sleeved.
@@DicevsCards I'm so glad I found your channel! you have been so helpful, I'm happy to find someone else besides me that cares about making good looking proxys. Cheers mate!
It was definitely a passion project, I’m pleased you found us too, thanks for the kind words
I'm currently looking to make my own proxies and this has been the best method I've seen, since every other method seems to favor the use of acetone to remove the ink from foil cards. My question though is; is 220gsm high gloss photo paper suitable for duplex printing on a budget home photo printer? For example, I'm thinking of buying an XP-6000/8700, both of which support duplex printing, but I'm skeptical if the printer mechanism is able to take in paper of that weight in for a duplex print. Should I go for duplex printing or manual on both sides?
My admittedly limited experience with different types of printers would suggest to me that 220gsm will be 50/50 as to whether it gets jammed when using the duplex function. The video was predicated on using a rear paper feed so as to avoid any frustration, thats why I added the margin of error on the card backs because of the inevitable displacement using a manual rear feed. Interestingly I should have probably done some more testing with the duplex functionality on my printer just to see how much better it was with alignment but because it couldn't even deal with the 180 I didn't bother.
I suppose what I would recommend then is to get a printer with an A4 rear paper feed and then just hope for the best that it works using the duplex functionality. I think some of the printers say thick media support but its never clear whether that means from the paper trays or not. Best of luck either way.
@@DicevsCards I was honestly not expecting a reply to this so thank you very much for taking the time to do so. Due to low budget I looked into the 150-200€ range home printers that supported duplex printing, however all of them specified A4 plain paper as the only supported paper. Confused at first I decided to email Epson's support to ask if the duplex printing supports double sided photo paper and weirdly enough, they replied about normal photo paper at first (they probably hadn't heard about double-sided ones) and upon further clarification they told me that duplex printing ONLY refers to plain A4 paper 80gsm.
Just to be sure, I called at a local PC hardware store and they told me that anything above the 80gsm mark would probably get jammed, since the mechanism is more simplified compared to those of commercial printers used in graphic stores.
I guess the best path I can take is what you suggested; rear feed and adding margins to my layouts to make up for any misalignment errors. If I may ask, what kind of printer did you use to print the proxies? And, if you have any knowledge, would an Epson L3250 be suitable for the job?
Thanks again!
How are these proxies holding up after 1 year+? I’m considering the cost savings of doing this and have already printed a few proxies with photo paper I have at hand and am impressed with the results. But I’m curious if the quality lasts, both in terms of the images/color quality and the paper warping and becoming bent? Can you give a status update to how these proxies look like after so long? I’m gonna buy the materials this week if this method holds the rest of time! Please let me know! ❤
I'm so sorry I've taken so long to respond to this, as a belated answer to your question, they've held up quite well. Unfortunately most the actual play of these I have done after sleeving them and they are all still pristine in the sleeves. The ones I have played unsleeved are also holding up quite well, they're all stored in deck boxes so there has been no issue with the quality of the image fading or anything like that. About one in ten print runs had some minor warping during the process, which seems to have lessened the more I do this and the more methodical I am in doing so (and ensuring to keep environmental conditions/room temperature consistent). But for those that were perfectly straight during the process there has been no warping after subsequent use.
Anyways I hope if you did use this method that things worked out for you.
Are you planning on making a video of how to use your template, I have no experience with photoshop or gimp.😅(NVM: Figured out how to paste image into selection) Great Template!!!
Glad you got it figured out and thank you.
Hi, awesome video! The only question i have is if this method makes the cards waterproof, because im planing on doing a card drinking game so in case a drink gets spilled over the table i dont end up with a bunch of wet paper and a ruined game. Thanks in advance!
The edges of the card would be exposed once you cut the laminate, so not waterproof, no.
I always loose lots of quality during setting fronts and backs. Perhaps i do something wrong. You should scale it in gimp in an exact way or use something else? Could you guide me how to prepare these cards right in case of scale and margins?
Yeah I was very precise using Photoshop, I'm not sure what terminology Gimp uses but making sure you understand where the anchor for the X and Y co-ordinates are, in Photoshop they seem to be in the top left of the image, hence why I needed to move the card backs left and upwards half the distance that I made them bigger. I hope that makes sense. This is all based on it being 300dpi/ppi and 2480 x 3508 pixels, which is equivalent to A4 paper.
In terms of margins it will depend on what type of printer you use but using the above dimensions my X co-ordinates for the card front are 87, 868, 1649 and the Y 166, 1234, 2302.
But incase you missed it in the video I increased the size of the card back by 10 pixels high and 20 pixels wide, the reasoning being that the margin of error would likely be greater when feeding the paper on both sides.
Anyways I hope this answers your questions, if not let me know.
Late comment but this tutorial is awesome! Just a quick question, how would you go to apply some sort of holo/foil effect on these card and still looking professional? I'm not too fond of using glue/spray for this..
Thanks I'm glad you enjoyed it, I still plan to do some research on holo/foils but haven't got round to determining my ideal method yet, watch this space.
A man after my own heart. I've driven my loved ones mad with my constant experimenting with adhesion methods, finishes of photo paper, backing them onto different cardstock, even airbrushing polyurethane varnish onto them to get rid of that sticky finish. (currently my method is 150gsm glossy paper, backed with spray adhesive onto 150gsm cardstock, which I think gives them the closest to the flex feel I've gotten so far)
I'd love to try out your method, I'll reply to this comment if I end up doing so!
Yeah I wasn't quite prepared for the rabbit hole I descended down at the start of this project, I knew I couldn't completely replicate professionally mass produced cards but to get as close as I did (at least by my standards) was definitely worth all the effort. Part of me wishes that there was a silk type finish in laminate or even in photo paper readily available to the consumer market but it ultimately boils down to what you want to achieve from making proxies as there are so many ways you could go with this. Ultimately getting to that 300 odd gsm mark is gonna get you close to the right feel and I'm glad you've found your sweet spot, please do though let me know if you try the laminate approach.
what result did ya get?
11:04 how do you align mtg cards in photoshop or the program are you using? you just download and drop in the program the image file?
Yes the process I was using at the time involved embedding and then manually placing them. The way I do it nowadays is to use image variables within Photoshop now so they can be automatically placed when importing the file locations on your computer from a spreadsheet. Planning to do a video how to on this at some point in the near future.
Okay... this was absurdly helpful, you've got yourself a new sub. Man, you're very methodical, funny, and straightforward. Now, I'm not sure if that's something you'd be interested in testing for us, but what about holographic cards? And then a challange step further: normal cards that only have holographic in certain accents of the card? I hear there are many ways to go about it, such as using a holographic lamination, or simply using holographic cardstock, but all of that is too confusing for me. Would you consider please doing this in-depth test and finding out the absolute best answer, as you have here? The impact you've probably had on the proxy cards community with this video alone is probably tremendous.
Glad to hear you found the video helpful, makes the effort worthwhile. To be honest I have considered a follow up focusing on holographic/foil cards but just haven't got past some very early research on the subject, watch this space 😉 Thank you for your kind words.
I've discovered this same technique on my quest to make the perfect proxy. On my attempt with the thermal laminate, my laminate layer separated from the print layer, pulling the ink with it. Have you had this happen? Or do you know of a way to prevent this?
I've used his method to great success and sometimes I have this issue as well. I just laminate it again after I cut it and it seems to solve it. But even if it doesn't completely seal it, you won't really notice it once you sleeve them.
I've not had this issue, it may be that the machine isn't up to its full heat, I always leave it a good few minutes after it says its ready and put it through twice just to be sure.
Do you have an estimate of cost per card? I know we would have to still get any equipment we don't have (I would need a laminator), but that cost would be helpful as, for example, NR cards are also available at makeplayingcards - I know this i also geared towards custom cards.
Apologies I've just lifted this from another comment reply.
Assuming you're not factoring in the capital costs of the printer and the laminating pouches, if you bought 100 sheets of paper at £12/$16, 100 sheets of laminating pouches at £22/$32 and lets just assume a suite of XL unofficial inkjet cartridges will be expended after 100 full sheets of two sided printing (which is a wild guess as each cartridges usage varies) at a cost of £11/$15, you've then got 900 cards at a cost of £45/$63 or 5p/7c per card. Obviously there's a decent margin of error with the estimated ink usage and that cost basis may go out the window if you use a laser printer and/or you only use official cartridges.
So as a point of comparison the System Gateway Bundle that has 216 cards is $55 plus shipping and aggregated out this method would be closer to $15 with shipping included 😉 the value's definitely there assuming everyone's got a printer in the first place its just the laminator that people might not have.
(DIY $0.12 vs MPC $0.50 per card) I did some quick math for myself, and it's pretty in line with the above. The description-listed links converted to USD for the paper, laminating pouches, and ink with Epson's estimated 240 prints (on the highly used black), comes to $0.12 per card (at 9 cards per sheet). MakePlayingCards smallest order of 18 cards (S30) is $0.50 per card. If you can do a single order of 108 cards, that's instead $0.24 per card. Also with noting MPC and other companies are supposed to refuse to print the official MTG card back.
Was the Golgari Guildgate shown at the end of the video made with this process?
No I just wanted to show other games for comparison purposes, I have done MtG cards now and I went the gloss laminate approach cause I knew I was sleeving them up with a matte finish.
I think investing in proxy prints vs the box price will be a lot cheaper for my hobby! Also from what I understand there going to be a lot more expensive moving forward! Thanks for the info if there’s anything else you can add I’d appreciate it
I would say your logic is sound 😉 I will definitely be following up on this video at some point, the things I've learned and how I've streamlined the actual "making" process.
I gave the method a try and the results are pretty good, however the thickness of both the photo paper and the laminating pouches are a bit too much for my preferences. The only obstacle standing in my way is how to cut the cards. I've tried a crafting knife, but my cuts are not straight. A guillotine cutter doesn't cut straight either, unless I opt for one with a knife blade. Do rotary trimmers cut through 220gsm/80micron thickness?
Hi, I'm surprised you're having trouble with a guillotine, could the blade blunted somehow and is it nice and sturdy? I honestly have never used a rotary trimmer but I suspect you'll have a similar issues as you would have with a craft knife in terms of keeping it straight with a ruler.
One thing I would say is that my final choice was the 180gsm paper which will make it slightly thinner if you're not happy with the final result. Ultimately any home method like this will result in a thicker stack of cards than professionally printed cards would but its absoutely doable to get the same feeling of professional cards in your hand.
@@DicevsCards Being a newbie with all this stuff I went ahead and bought a guillotine than doesn't have a knife. the handle is more square-like. It does cut through normal A4 paper -although still not straight- but anything heavier than that it kind of drags it along and it cuts even less straight. My last 2 options are either a rotary trimmer that can cut through laminated paper, or a good guillotine with a knife
Thank you so much. I have been searching for this type of content for a week. I find it hard to find anyone who talks about gpm, which is the biggest factor for me.
I am a non-native English speaker, so I have several questions.
I'm confused as to why you use both gloss and matte paper and gloss or matte Laminating Pounches. If gloss provide a better finition, why should we use matte? Can you provide more information on that?
Next question, I think you said you laminate for the sake of texture and thickness. So my question is, do you still undersleeve your cards? I use KMC Standard perfect sleeves and Dragon shield sleeves. And if you use undersleeves, why laminate then?
As of now, this is my experience:
- I tried 300 gps paperboard. The feeling (bending and weight) is good, but not perfect when sleeved. It's noticeable that it's a bit heavier and hard to bend. The quality is superior to regular paper, but not the best.
I tried 200 grams of photo paper with gloss for inkjet printers. The cards look much better in terms of color and precision. But they are way too light and bend way too easily. I tried to put a regular card in the sleeves with it, but it ended up being the opposite : too heavy and hard to bend.
I have already ordered 250 and 270 gps photo paper in gloss. My hope was to have the best of both worlds: paperboard weight/flexibility (but less), and vivid color and top color accuracy of photo paper gloss. But I am concerned and confused right now because you use so much less gps.
what do you think?
Thank you.
Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the video, I'll try and answer your questions in order:
I only advocate the use of glossy paper, the advice then is to use matte laminating pouches if you are not going to sleeve your cards or you can use gloss if you are going to use matte sleeves. In my opinion gloss laminate and gloss sleeves are way too reflective for me to enjoy a card game with, however if you do not have a problem with that, then use gloss laminate and gloss sleeves as colour retention and image definition is at its most optimal in those instances.
I have never felt the need to use perfect fit sleeves for these as I am not trying to protecting them, undersleeving is in my opinion a necessary evil not a benefit to shuffling or handling.
Undersleeving and not using laminate is something that might be worth exploring but the intention with this guide was to make the best proxy I could that did not require sleeving.
What I found in answer to your last bullet points is that no matter what GSM paper/cardstock that I used on its own did not reliably mimic the flex of most mass produced cards. With laminate what you are ultimately doing is mirroring the three layers of said mass produced cards, in so doing the binding of three layers gives a similar resistance when holding, flexing and shuffling the cards.
I think when you refer to 300 GSM paperboard you are talking about uncoated cardstock but you should be able to find photo paper at that GSM, that may be worth trying. Just to be clear though the only reason that I am able to use a lower GSM is because the laminate adds to the overall heft and thickness of the finished product.
I do hope this has answered your questions, feel free to follow up if it hasn't.
First, thank you for your answers.
Now I know you don't want to undersleeve I understand why you laminate your cards. I would like to know why you prefer this option. Because I think it is important to have the same flexibility as a real card, and undersleeves give you a choice. Do I need an extra layer with this paper GSM or not? I hope you see my point.
Now, as for glossy paper, I tried :
- Koala double sides Glossy 120 GSM
Color are medium. Definition is good. It's almost regular paper thin, so you need to double it with a real card like a land (Magic player here). The good point is that we cannot detect the proxy from the side when shuffling.
- HP glossy 200 GSM
Great color. The definition is a bit blurry, but like all other glossy non-mat paper (except for Koala 120 GSM). The proxy still needs to be doubled by another card. The issue is that it can be seen from the side due to its thickness.
- Epson glossy mat 189 GSM
Stunning color and precision. The proxy needs to be doubled by another real card, but it feels less flexible than the 200 GSM. This contradicts intuition. I think it's due to how mat and reflective glossy are processed. The card can still be spotted from the side as you need to double it.
- Epson Glossy premium 255 GSM
Great color, but a bit too pale for me. That means black is not black enough for me, but you can see more detail than with the HP glossy. 255 GSM is very thick, and you still need to double it with a real card. The proxy is really too visible from the side.
Something you said confused me : "With laminate what you are ultimately doing is mirroring the three layers of said mass-produced cards, in so doing the binding of three layers gives a similar resistance when holding, flexing and shuffling the cards."
Even if you laminate your card, the GSM/thickness of the paper should be considered. You linked 180 and 200 GSM. How does-it feel the same?
Thank you for your time. My quest is to find a paper not to thick who would not require to doubling by a real card (with or without undersleeve/laminate).
How did you cut your cards?
I'm really curious on if these de-laminate with shuffling outside of sleeves over time or not, and whether that compares favorably or not compared to official printed cards
Good question
I would say with long term use "official" cards are going to be more durable but they'll also show their wear a bit quicker if they're not sleeved. The biggest risk if you want to call it that is whether the laminiate flicks up at the corners after heavy shuffling/use, although in my experience with the highest heat applied during lamination and the corner punching this is not easy to do.
@@DicevsCardsSweet! Sounds comparably hard to do as accidentally splitting a regular playing card's stock layers then
There are corner cutters?!
You sir just saved the life of an obsessive convulsive dude that throws away proxies until they are perfect. 🙏
Aye some inventions are just too useful 😉
So I really want to use your method. I want proxy mtg cards. I will most likely sleeve with perfect fits if I craft the absolute perfect proxies and want to keep them prestine forever, then use dragon shield sleeves. If I feel they're durable enough and the process wasn't too time consuming/strenuous, then I may opt for no perfect fits and just the dragon shield sleeves :)
That said, so with double side printing I would use...180 gsm double sided glossy photo paper and matte laminate pouches, correct? @10:40 - or did you mean glossy photo paper + matte dragon shield/other card sleeves?
But how about doing only single sided printing? What paper would I use to get the same weight, thickness, feel, etc?
Are these kinds of paper stock different from regular printer paper? Ultimately, do I need a special printer or will a standard home office printer work?
P.S. Would you mind sharing your PSD template for the card layout? Or would the ANR template work for magic? Where do I find that?
P.P.S. Here are my notes for your amazing video. Thank you again for the wisdom :)
NOTES
IDEAL Size & Thickness to be aiming for = 325 GSM 86 LBS
1. Paper - color
- pgp matte photo paper 230 gsm
- psp matte photo paper 230 gsm
- pgp glossy photo paper 300 gsm - slightly better than matte
- double sided glossy photo paper 300 gsm 80lbs - slightly sticky for shuffling.
Use Double sided GLOSSY Photo Paper from 180-220 gsm (47-59lbs)
- 220 gsm - a bit too stiff
- 180 gsm - 47lbs glossy paper in matte laminate sheets
2. Laminating sheets
- A4 Laminating pouches LMA4BAG
- Fellowes Stylish Matt Laminating Pouches A4 216x303mm 80lbs thickness - 25 pack
Use MATTE Laminating Pouches -
3. Set up Printing Document
- Photoshop - A4 Page @ 300 ppi
- Space apart 9 cards in 1 sheet using these dimensions -- 63x88mm - 2.48x3.46 in with 744x1039 px (300 ppi)
- Double Sided printing using card backs -- make backs slightly bigger (increase width by 20 pixels & height by 10 pixels)
4. Print front face sheet then the card backs on back of sheet
5. Let sheet sit under a book until ink is dried.
6. Sleeve up in laminating pouch
7. Laminate using machine - set machine to highest heat setting, let it preheat + wait a few extra minutes to make sure, feed the sheets through machine once then flip over and feed through again, then press under a large book again until laminate sheet is cooled down.
8. Cut sheets
9. Use corner puncher to round off edges
10. Sleeve up in KMC + DragonShields.
OK cool I'm pleased you're looking to try this approach, you've certainly prepared well for it.
In terms of the perfect fit sleeves its really a personal choice, I think the result is definitely cards that are worth looking after, it then just boils down to how much you care about having to redo any that start to fray on the top edge. The other thing to consider is that card for card the proxies will be slightly thicker without the sleeves so adding perfect fit in to the mix will compound this issue but then if your collection is already double sleeved then that negates that point.
If I remember correctly as well any Dragon Shields I've had in the past are fairly long so give a bit more empty space at the top of card.
Thats correct 180gsm double sided glossy photo paper with matte laminating pouches, but if you know for sure you're always gonna sleeve the cards you can afford to use glossy laminating pouches as they do provide a miniscule quality improvement, its then up to you whether you go matte or gloss sleeves.
To be honest I don't know the answer to your single sided printing question, my guess is it would have a nominal impact so long as you stick to double sided glossy paper, which I suspect will have more of an impact on the spring and feel of the paper than a small layer of ink missing on one side.
As far as the paper goes yeah its just regular photo paper from Amazon or equivalent and any home inkjet printer will do the trick, although some may be better at going through the automatic feeder, I manually rear feed every side so I just work with what I've got.
Let me see about uploading the .PSD file, that shouldn't be too much of a problem, but to answer your question the ANR template and dimensions are the same, even though FFG's quality control (at least in terms of sizing) is not as good.
Anyways thank you for your interest and comprehensive notes, I do hope it works out for you, I'll reply back when I'm able to upload the template, if you have any follow up question's don't hesitate to ask.
@@DicevsCards I think they'd be worth looking after too considering how lengthy the process is lol Is there any way to prevent the top edges from fraying?
Hmmm, I see. Would you recommend different types of photo paper to not make them thicker than real cards?
And yeah, i double sleeve everything. Decks are double sleeved and my collection/extras are in just perfect fits. I just have so many perfect fits and they're cheap so I don't mind getting 300 at a time or so.
I'm not sure if they've changed the Dragon Shield production process since you've bought them. I have 3/16" empty space at the top of a perfect sleeved real card in a dragon shield. And I typically like playing matte dragon shield sleeves.
So 180gsm double sided glossy photo paper + matte pouches, OR 180 double sided glossy photo paper + glossy pouches if double sleeving..?
"my guess is it would have a nominal impact so long as you stick to double sided glossy paper, which I suspect will have more of an impact on the spring and feel of the paper than a small layer of ink missing on one side." - right, that's kind of what I figured. Awesome.
Ok cool! I was considering investing in a 100$ printer possibly. Other video's I've seen recommend printers ranging from 200-400, which I think is a bit much for this.
Ok! Great. Thank you so much I really appreciate the help :) I'll message you on instagram too. If you find the template it may send more efficiently there.
I will check again for the ANR template. I also need to create a template for cutting extended black borders off of cards haha. I LOVE a lot of artworks on mpcfill.com and I'd like to cut off the black borders(that they add for makeplayingcards.com) so that I can print them up myself after using a psd template and then using your printing method.
Thanks so much again! :)
@@JpDubbed I can't think of another way unfortunately, just remember to make sure your laminator is at peak temperature at the highest setting to ensure the best possible adhesion.
I think once you start to experiment with thinner weighted card they become too flimsy, the difference in thickness (which you don't notice in hand, only once a full deck is standing side by side with the real thing) is unavoidable using home equipment as the core thats used by these companies is not pound for pound the same as this method, so long story short I'm not aware of a way to get the flex and feel of the card in a home environment with a thinner end product.
No so what I mean by using gloss or matte laminate is that the outermost layer you will be using will determine how reflective the card is so if you know you're using matte sleeves (I think perfect fit don't ever have a finish) then you can afford to use gloss laminate because your sleeve will deal with the reflectiveness.
I think for an A4 printer and this task you don't need to break the bank thats for sure, mine happens to be a "photo" printer but I'm not sure how much difference you would see in just a normal multifunctional printer.
OK I've uploaded the templates now in Google Drive, you can find the link in the video description, hope you have fun making your own proxies!
@@DicevsCards Also, if you get time, you can find the products you use such as the laminator, paper cutter, and printer and link them so I'll use your links. Just a thought haha
Edit: didn't see the printer till now hahaha
@@DicevsCards ahhhhhhhh i deleted my comment yesterday by accident, deleted the wrong one...rip. Based off memory, so yes I'll make sure the laminator is fully prepared.
"No so what I mean by using gloss or matte laminate is that the outermost layer you will be using will determine how reflective the card is so if you know you're using matte sleeves (I think perfect fit don't ever have a finish) then you can afford to use gloss laminate because your sleeve will deal with the reflectiveness." - ok, yes perfect fits are non-finish I believe. So you're saying to disregard the info in the video about using gloss for everything if I know I'm gonna be using matte dragon shields and perfect fits???
I did play with these blank cards I found laying around and they feel great! But at 310gsm I can see how they may be too thick after adding ink and laminate.www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QV77ZX7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Also I got these before diving super deep into your video, but I don't think they're the correct ones so I may return them - they feel too flimsy, and Idk what micron they are...? maybe that's a factor as to why?... www.amazon.com/dp/B0000721Z3?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1
Yeah I looked up your printer, it's about $300 in Amazon US.... so maybe not that one, but maybe as it does seem good.
Thank you so much for the templates man. You are truly amazing. I really do appreciate all the help. This reply wasn't as cohesive as my last because I'm dumb and deleted it by accident lol
But ok, think i got it. So If I'm using perfect fits, then 180gsm 47 lbs, glossy double sided photo paper, then glossy laminate pouches, then perfect fits, then dragon shield matte sleeves.
I guess I could play it safe and just use matte laminate pouches if I ever wanna be lazy and not use perfect fits for these because they are proxies..but for the perfect proxies, gloss laminate pouches.
Here's my updated notes if you get a chance to take a look. I still have to order more products i.e. paper and pouches from amazon - I'm just OCD and trying to get this perfect hahaha and I'm trying to find the equivalent versions of the papers you listed that are available in the US from amazon. Which is a bit tricky. I can't find 220gsm from that Uinkit brand :/
-------------------------------------------
Notes:
1. ✅ Paper - color
- pgp glossy photo paper 180 gsm - 47 lbs
- pgp glossy photo paper 220 gsm - 59 lbs - (slightly too thick and inflexible)
- Use Double sided GLOSSY Photo Paper from 180-220 gsm (47-59lbs)
2. ✅ Laminating sheets
- A4 Laminating pouches LMA4BAG
- Fellowes Stylish Matt Laminating Pouches A4 216x303mm 80 microns thickness - 25 pack
- Can use glossy laminating pouches if sleeving cards in matte products to reduce the glare - they provide slightly clearer image through the laminate.
- OR use Matte Laminating pouches and just sleeve them up later on, makes very little difference to end product.
- MAIN TIP: Use gloss for everything UP until the outer most layer of what you're producing.
- SO, if I KNOW I'm sleeving them, use gloss laminating pouches and matte tcg sleeves(dragon shields)
- Glossy Laminate pouches - A4 2x75 micron, 303x426mm -- www.amazon.com/Texet-Laminating-Pouches-Microns-Pack/dp/B001HRYSS0/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=texet+a4+laminating+pouches&qid=1673350079&sr=8-3
- Matte Laminate Pouches - A4 80 micron, 216x303mm -- www.amazon.com/dp/B07665KRG8/?coliid=I25PQYZCH1UQM6&colid=3PMK754UK5XDO&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1
Use MATTE Laminating Pouches for best quality of proxy OUTSIDE of a dragon shield sleeve.
3. ✅ Set up Printing Document
- Photoshop - A4 Page @ 300 ppi
- Space apart 9 cards in 1 sheet using these dimensions -- 63x88mm - 2.48x3.46 in with 744x1039 px (300 ppi)
- Double Sided printing using card backs -- make backs slightly bigger (increase width by 20 pixels & height by 10 pixels)
4. ✅ Print front face sheet then the card backs on back of sheet
5. ✅ Let sheet sit under a book until ink is dried.
6. ✅ Sleeve up in laminating pouch
7. ✅ Laminate using machine - set machine to highest heat setting, let it preheat + wait a few extra minutes to make sure, feed the sheets through machine once then flip over and feed through again, then press under a large book again until laminate sheet is cooled down.
8. ✅ Cut sheets
9. ✅ Use corner puncher to round off edges
10. ✅ Sleeve up in KMC perfect fits + DragonShields.
can you hold an original card next to it?
The dedication! I wanna print that game. :)
I actually have too many projects I wanna do now that I'm happy with the results, need to narrow my ambition 😀
if you print on both side of the paper and after you laminate it .. once you cut the cards the lamination will remain attached to the cards? or it will open?
In my experience if you apply the highest heat to the laminate you will have no problem, I find the corner punching adds even more protection from this happening as well.
Where exactly did you find sleeves in 56x79mm dimensions for the proxy cards (as they are in size after being printed from the sheet) ? Also, when you buy all of the high quality paper, laminating sheets and color for the printer as well as card sleeves with matte backgrounds, which are expensive and spend bunch of time preparing and printing, then cutting everything etc etc etc it's just not worth it to do this yourself at all. Much easier, even cheaper to just order it from project Nisei
They must be being resized at some point during the printing, 744px x 1039px at 300ppi is the desired 62.99m x 87.97mm so should be printing the right size. I completely understand it might be too much hassle for some people but it won't be as economically viable using MPC for example if you're in certain parts of the world. This process isn't just for Netrunner either, it can then be used for anything you desire.
Hey...
Thank you.
You're welcome
any ideas on how to incorporate foil into these proxies?
not yet but it is something I've been researching, there are some videos out there, how viable they are though I'm not sure yet.
please make a step by step tutorial
Would you consider going this route? Have you found a better way to proxy? Please let me know! edit: I've also uploaded the Photoshop templates I used, link can be found in the video description
What software do you use? I've been wanting to print a proxy copy of the out of print Battletech card game. I have a complete card list with images but I cant figure out how to print them out besides being 1 image per sheet of paper.
Do you have the photoshop template? Would love to get it Thanks bob
Hi Bob, links to the card front and back are in the video description.
We difer in ethics but i apreciate the video
I like sticker paper over junk cards or ones I bought cheap because the backs never print right
Thats definitely more accurate than just sleeving it up with another card and a cool lo-fi way of getting the feel of the card right, I suppose the main area you're losing out on is quality, they should do photo sticker paper 😉
I'd watch a step-by-step guide of the photoshop mock up for sure.
Watch this space.
this is amazing lool
My prints, the text seems a tad blurry. Nothing major, but it's just not as crisp as the actual cards. Any advice,
Text is definitely the trickiest bit for the printer to deal with, I suspect this will always be the problem using a home/office printer and consumer paper combination. A lot could also depend on the resolution of the card and/or the scan or digital render quality, you can experiment with sharpening the image in Photoshop or equivalent that may help.
@DicevsCards also noticed the lamination warps real bad. Assuming it's my cheap laminator forcing it to cool really fast but I don't know.
Try MPC fill for Mtg cards.
Would a visit to MPC offer quality results?
I've never used them myself but my understanding is that their quality control is of at least a decent standard and the end product is very good, the question then just becomes the price and if you're willing to pay that little extra premium.
The ink for the printer breaks the bank lol
Yeah I've noticed more and more you have to do your research on what printer to get, which will somewhat help in mitigating the cost of ink.
Question:
So wait, did he print double side on one paper, or print two different papers and Laminate them together?
Just one double sided glossy photo paper and then laminate that.
Bro, these look hella cool, I've been wanting to do this for magic until I buy the actually card. Would this work for mtg cards? I'd assume so but figured I'd ask. Awesome video as well. 😄
Absolutely FFG and Magic cards feel very similar although MtG cards seem to have better quality control in their dimensions. I've done some MtG fetch lands which I've sleeved up and put in with real cards and you really can't tell the difference without really looking. And thanks I'm glad you enjoyed the video.
Hey man. Wotc is selling proxies now for 30th anniversary. And you can't use use proxies only in wotc tournaments. Which no longer exist.
When will we get a best foil proxy :C
Hmm I can't say for sure when but its definitely on the list to do, watch this space.
why dont simply order to mpc?
Well thats certainly an option but for those that wanna DIY, why not try it out.
How die you cut it??
Any type of guillotine cutter with a rule to line up the blade will do.
And he's british so I don't have to find other places to get the materials?! Winning today!
Nice to be a winner 😉
Looking to make proxies for my kids to play tcg with me, without having to break the bank
Well there's endless possibilites for games out there and so many from choices from out of print games as well. Best of luck!
9:13
The best proxy is to take cards from monopoly or something, sleeve them with your new cards - done
This would have been my fall back option.
Can you make me a custom yugioh deck
Are you asking me if I can make a template for small sized cards? That I may be able to do 😉
Guess this guy never heard of a “bleed” when printing and cropping to get the “correct” image- with art right up to, and beyond the edge of the card…??..??
I stopped watching at 3 minutes, your intro drags on too long. Gonna go grab my sharpie which is probably better than any option you want to suggest.
Edit. I just noticed I was subscribed, not any more.
🤡🤡🗑🗑💩💩
Yep idk what your smoking just tap anywhere speed video to your liking. I wanted way make kid Pokémon cards without wasting money this is perfect.
Would be interested to know cost per card using this method
Assuming you're not factoring in the capital costs of the printer and the laminating pouches, if you bought 100 sheets of paper at £12/$16, 100 sheets of laminating pouches at £22/$32 and lets just assume a suite of XL unofficial inkjet cartridges will be expended after 100 full sheets of two sided printing (which is a wild guess as each cartridges usage varies) at a cost of £11/$15, you've then got 900 cards at a cost of £45/$63 or 5p/7c per card. Obviously there's a decent margin of error with the estimated ink usage and that cost basis may go out the window if you use a laser printer and/or you only use official cartridges.