My Thoughts On The Le Mans Virtual Controversy
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- čas přidán 14. 01. 2023
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This is why all sim racing events should be done in Gran Turismo 4 split screen. No disconnects. No DDOS attacks. The perfect system.
Other than gt has issues
Nah F1 22 splitscreen would be way better, also a far more realistic experience (even tough there are only F1 cars in the game) /s
To be fair, other esports events like League of Legends or DOTA 2 are played locally, which is an option for an event like virtual 24 hours of Le Mans.
@@aawwmm thats a good point, almost all top level esports games are local
@@aawwmm Dota, LOL, CSGO, COD, and other top esport is easy to run
but...
remember how stupid was the PUBG ESL LAN event ? its a logistic nightmare, the room, and the travel
just like racing game, its not a game with just 10
At €2,000 to enter, it'd basically be smart to just have every participant travel to compete in the same location.
Yeah but everyone would want their own rig and their own PC so you’d have to deal with those logistics
Perhaps there's something to be said for that. I mean GT has a smoother run with their championship.
you severly underestimate how expensive would it've been to host a LAN with teams from all over the world. Hell 2k€ wouldn't be enough for travel and accomadation for a team of 4 drivers + engineer that all lived in europe and the event was hosted in either Le Mans or Paris
A LAN event with 60 cockpits and 240 drivers in a big hall would be awesome to watch, especially when there are many driver swaps at the same time
Nah, that will eat into their profits because they'd have to rent out a venue, setup and organize a real in person event, and provide computers that the participants can use that are actually able to accept all the varieties of input peripherals that each participant will bring. They won't want to spend on that, and I don't think they'd lose customers due to this botched event either so there's no incentive.
It is not like a DoTA 2 tournament where organizers only need to accommodate the mouse and keyboard (headphones maybe?) of participants.
It's important to note this was Redline/Max's 3rd (!) disconnect this race, he didn't do this after the first DC.
Exactly.. he probably also has a very low tolerance when it comes to wasting precious time. You don't become a world champion in anything (sports, chess, whatever) if you don't use your time in an efficient manner. I totally get why he was pissed. Clown show was a very fitting term for this disaster.
@@LilTiddyTwista yup. I believe he also cut his holiday short for this (first world problems, I know, but precious time with his family!). The fact it wasn't the first time, or 2nd even for these type of issues...well says enough! It's a known problem they haven't fixed and seemingly won't fix.
Also there are 3 other drivers driving for the same time, they all decided to retire the car together. Saying that Max did it because he was mad IS mad.
@@symckr absolutely! Even if Max said F this I'm quitting...the remaining 3 drivers would be able to split the next 6 hours between them if they really wanted to.
The commentators deserve the biggest praise for doing superb job during the 2 hours of nothing in entertaining us
💯
IT LASTED TWO GODDAMN HOURS? Thats a whole ass stint!
They are used to long red flags due to rain. ;)
2021 F1 Belgian GP Commentators : Finally a worthy opponent!
@@rickardboberg there were WEC commentators not F1
In 2020 sim racing had a once-in-a-lifetime chance to prove itself. All it showed to the world was a clown show. Here we are again.
This is it. 3 strikes and you're out is what I'm thinking, 3 opportunities to show what sim racing can truly do and be taken seriously & this is where its at again.
If I'm the FIA and ACO, I'm going through our contract with MSG with a fine-toothed comb for an applicable "out-clause" to invoke. Ditto IndyCar, NASCAR and TOCA.
Actually this started a bit further before Covid hits, at the era of GT Academy. The truth is, virtual racer-turned-pro racers has the chance to show their capability in an actual race car but they didn't really show any form of promise, didn't matter it was from GT Academy and/or World Fastest Gamer, or even independents. Even worse than several ex-illegal street racers who ran in pro racing scene. I'm afraid that, on mainstream level, virtual racing is already a clown show since it's inception
absolutely agree Ermin HamSandwitch, but in the other hand it's almost better this way with how elitist the competitive people are, because if it started to be more serious some people might take everything even more personally than they alerady do. It's dissapointing that people need to be reminded that this is still a videogame no matter the skill ceiling or gear "necesary" (technically you can play with controller or keyboard but good luck with that).
@@RazorSharp75426 i mean, if illegal street racers going pro leaves them satisfied to be clean on the road i'd be okay with it.
Am I wrong in saying Jimmy and Max were the biggest draw for spectators of this le man 24hr? They also have the ability to grow the sport in a positive direction, more than any “motorsports games” can. Is it time for top drivers to stop promoting this company by putting their face on the package? I think the 2 of them could team up and begin their own top sim driver series without the need of backing a company that is bringing toxicity to the community.
I agree with your max point, but I doubt your jimmy point. There are a lot more famous people in the race than jimmy there
I agree, maybe call it the 24 hour of le mons or something😅
romain grosjean was in the race
Max and Jimmy are a big draw, but it's larger than that - the field was full of talent in both IRL racing and sim racing. It's a shame about how it went down in the end, because it was on track to be a very good thing for bridging the gap between IRL and simracing worlds.
@@marcussg0813 lol call it 24 lemons
Imagine having Max Verstappen playing your game, participating in your event drawing thousands of people to it, one of the best ambassadors for sim racing you could have.. and then completely drop the ball through incompetence and the game predictably unable to support the event, and the insult Verstappen by saying he 'threw a hissy fit' because he retired the car after being screwed over.
The regulations of the event were very clear that you only get laps for free if 4 or more participants DC, indicating a wider problem. Otherwise people would just abuse it to get around pit stops, push the disconnect button before they get car damage, etc..
@@virtual_GaRy Which are dumb rules to begin with.
@@virtual_GaRy Surely the stewards could check replays to check if people using disconnection to avoid a crash or whatever.
Kinda funny when the FIA boys club isn't around to protect the big names. Imagine the blow back if Hamilton also driving in this event and this happened to him. I'd pay to watch him cry and wine.
@@virtual_GaRy I'm 100% sure there's a way to detect whether or not a person disconnects manually or was disconnected by the server, hell, multiple games tell you that when someone leaves. If this isn't a feature of RFactor, then there is no reason to use it to host an event.
When Jimmy has better streaming numbers than the official stream, then he's more essential to them than they realise!
There where more streamers that had bigger numbers than the official stream, tends to be the norm in sim racing to be honest.
@@alanluth6755 yeah I remember a special event iRacing was doing, and Matt Malone had more viewers than iRacing themselves.
He didn't really though. The official broadcast was spread across at lease 3 different channels, The FIA WEC channel, the 24h Le Mans channel, and TraxionGG. All of which were around 3k viewers throughout.
It was also on Eurosport app
Just goes to show that eSports is crap and hardly anyone is interested in it. People want to watch and follow personalities which is why streamers get more views. eSports is a massive waste of time and is ruining Sim Racing.
I totally agree with Max, honestly. He's not getting paid by the organizers to do that, he's doing it on his own time to improve his abilities, training for the ability to stay awake, pay attention, etc. And EVERYONE ELSE who isn't a world champion getting paid by a billion dollar company had to deal with it too! It's a major issue, and they need to find a way to make it better. Make a WEC game with better servers based on RF2, cause you can't fix a sinking ship, there's too much water on it.
max is a crybaby though. Last year race he lost himself
@@siniyden Being right and being a crybaby aren't mutually exclusive.
@@siniyden yet he is driving a F1 car and you ? a honda civic?
@@Mcorpmike you have not even civic
@@monkohm6918 Anyway he`s behavior is too childish. He has big name, there is no sense to be like offended child.
We had this issue in 2017 on iRacing in the boradcast split. Players STOPPED on track in protest. Within months iRacing fixed it and severe server side issues such as this have become a rare event. Just this past weekend they held an event with exponentially more connections with no drama.
This event is not open to the public. You have to pay 2 grand a pop after getting invited to it in order to compete and it couldn't handle a single split. I would be absolutely livid at this situation.
And this isn't the first time. There has been some controversy surrounding V Le Man since its inception as it pertains to the software. And every year it seems like we come back to this same controversy.
The exclusivity licensing needs to end. Sim racing is CHOKING on its desire to become this top tier prestigious esport because of it.
Depending on how the contract was written, you'd be surprised by how much control the organization that owns Le Mans has over the property. If the simrace series is hurting the real world reputation or even if the owner company cares enough about the sim reputation here, they can pull their support from Motorsport Games. Sim racing has taken big steps since 2020 and with names like Max Verstappen involved and a high possibility that any upcoming real world talent is likely also playing at home, it's in Le Mans best interest to not allow Motorsport Games hurt that image.
Sim racing is a huge opportunity for these companies, Le Mans and the WEC get to attach guys like Verstappen to their series, even if they never touch the real world cars. Its a huge win to keep them happy. If this went off perfectly you could see more real world talent that otherwise aren't WEC step through the WEC's door in ways that only actual participation would allow.
One of the best comments in this thread.
Spot on, mate.
Unfortunately Motorsport Games is a scam company. rFactor will die under their ownership. You should read about their first game they developed in NASCAR Ignition. It’s a complete disaster and their CEO is a con-artist.
@@mistaTVD3199 it's really sad to see one of the OG sims die like this, but it's how it goes
Yeah you kinda hope that the IP owner becomes fed up with this and goes for a deal with iRacing instead.
Let's see how the Indy 500 goes....
Motorsport games, beeing Motorsport games
Well said. It pains me to see Motorsport Games ruin all these high-powered licenses with sub-par software. I hope that the organizers can use incidents like this as leverage to push them to do better moving forward. Also, what the heck was up with the P'EATstop grape snack bar ads?
I lay it all at Motorsport Games ' door. If they mess up the Indy 500 too I wouldn't be shocked x
Motorsport Games won't get any better, the money they earn goes right into the owners pocket.
dude i swear during the red flags every 5 mins there was P’EATstop ads and the general public cant even purchase them
The energy bars are from Total Energies, it's because they are using grapes to make the sustainable fuel
one can hope but i doubt there will be any changes made while the license is exclusive, which is why the system of awarding exclusive licenses to the highest bidder providing the worst service needs to be scrapped. so many other titles could have done a better job and its not like this is the first offense from Motorsport Games
I am very surprised that there are no IT technical sponsors behind this series (and Sim Racing as a whole). I really do think that companies/products such as Cisco, Juniper, AWS, Azure, Oracle Cloud, Aruba (HP Enterprise), and even IBM need to be sought after as IT technical partners in sim racing. This is especially true for any sanctioned virtual racing series, especially any endurance racing. In the grand scheme of marketing, the cost of offering technical support and servers, when compared to the market reach, is a no brainer for these companies. Especially since there are many people who already work in IT that enjoy sim racing or watching sim racing. It would also be a great way to promote certifications and that there are good paying jobs in the IT field.
Based on the issues described by rFactor's statement, the issues really come down to a lack of IT security (the TeamSpeak incidents), server management, and poorly implemented net code within the sim. If they did not do any Pen Testing prior to an event of this magnitude, then they should not be running such an event. IT Security is costly, and clearly there were a number of oversights. Clearly the servers were also an issue. That might come down to the a number of technical issues but based on my own experience, it comes down the very poorly implemented net code.
Very true, although AWS does sponsor GTWC, including I believe the virtual races as they are run under GTWC now. GTWC seems to be leaning in to eSports quite a bit, with the main sponsors being AWS and Fanatec.
Simple, because Sim Racing has even LESS sponsorship value than Under Night In-Birth/Melty Blood Local Tourneys. I'd rather set up my own crappy local Smash Bros. tournament with less than 20 people than sponsor these clowns (Max was right on the money here, uninstall broken software that's vulnerable to DDoS attacks, terrible netcode and constant server failures, bad products DON'T DESERVE TO BE PLAYED OR PURCHASED, let alone be given a second chance). Plus, I have a hunch that none of these companies wants to associate themselves with MSG because they're a bunch of frauds. No seriously, they're genuine frauds run by conmen from Russia and Ukraine hiding in Florida and mistreating their employees.
and what they have is Goodye*r and R*lex fckin joke honestly
@@WalintHUN If they had a technical partner like Cisco/Juniper, they could have implanted some better security in the data chain before the game server, but they didn't even put a solution in, just in case....Reeks really bad Cybersec to be fair!
You don’t need a sponsor like that to run a server… but seems that they were running it like a normal weekly race with buddies.
I’m actually glad they’ll do a full investigation. I’d rather them go “this is what happened and we will do xyz” than try and do the Homer going through the bush meme.
The company that has neglected the same issue for YEARS is doing a "full investigation" of their own issues.
@@MrGc6asl Studio 397 put a decent chunk of time into fixing server issues. Plenty of 6, 8, 12 and 24hr races have been run by numerous leagues over the last 12 months with ZERO issues.
The issues with the 2021 Le Mans were caused by teams running some sort of third party software despite being told not to, and 2022 went without a problem.
@@MrGc6asl They bought kart kraft and haven't touched it.
"full investigation" is the biggest 'I'm not doing anything about it' fluff ever
"Do a homer through the bush meme" 🤣
I think it's time to officially make The 23h of Zolder the main sim racing event of the year.
Or start 25 hours of Brands Hatch or sommin’
lets just take the LMH to the Nordschleife in the Sims and do a 24 hour race with that. Because we can!
@@invalid8774 In a public AC track day lobby.
@@invalid8774 Fuck it. Widen the Nürbürgring… all of it, Nordschleife included, to comfortable 25 meters. One meter of width for every kilometer of length. You don’t even need millions of € and thousands of people. Just a couple hours in Blender.
Or next 24h le mans virtual in Forza Motorsports 7
If you take a look at their stock price, Motorsport Games could be heading to bankruptcy (which would allow the likes of Indycar or even ACO to terminate their licencing agreement). When they went public in 2021, their stock was 300 Dollars, right now their stock is at 3,93 Dollars. A drop in the span of two years of about 98.69%.
The current stock price is even after they did a 1 for 10 buyback to avoid being delisted from the NASDAQ. That this is before trading opens in the morning.
It's a different issue, they purchased too many licenses but don't have the technical power to build products for them, even when they had all the money from the stock market (now they don't anymore).
However, Rfactor2 might be the only "cash cow" they have right now, they are getting some license money back by making DLCs in rf2. Shame they cannot even get rf2 to work perfectly, and fked up the best publicity event they can have all year.
Such a shame what happened but at the same time great driving Jimmy from you and whole team!💪
It's even more of a shame that this won't change anything and the event will probably run on RF2 again next year. I hope I'm wrong.
Weird how a DDOS attack happened when it started to rain. Twice.
looks like some hackers don't like to get wet
So I am trying to guess what you are suggesting here, the rain has an effect on the servers?
@@JoakimMiller67 no he is suggesting that a contestant doesn't like rainy weather so just crashed the server via a ddos
@@chasinbns2868 Ah, that's evil..
@@chasinbns2868 I think he's actually stating that the server maybe didn't like the rain.
You also forgot to mention the commentator insulting Max on-air saying that he's acting like a kid once they retired...Overall this were probably the worst 24h for e-motosport so far
*Edit* just found a direct quote: "Max had a hissy fit"
Holy shit, that's stupid.
I'm not calling him a cry baby, I am just enjoying laughing at the poetic irony of him having a meltdown over having the race lead taken from him for circumstances out of his control when he had absolutely no problem when it happened to someone else to his advantage.🤣
But he did though. With or without conext of the fuckups leading to that moment, he acted like a child and he retired the car because he said theres no point running in p15. Now imagine he did that during a grand prix and how the media and fans would take it then.
Yes i agree the while thing was a mess, but that doesnt mean he wasnt acting like a child on top of that.
@@kb5057 he didnt have a meltdown though? Do you even know what a meltdown is? He was mad and disappointed. You guys have a different max verstappen created from your own delusions and hate agenda. Sooo weird.
He is calling out this issue because it happened to almost everyone. Porsche cars were leading before they disconnected, red bull disconnected, a lot of other teams lost their podiums and leads just like max. Your hate boner for him doesnt change the fact that he is speaking out for the community.
@@nitelast it isnt an uncommon thing for top teams in f1 to retire the car if they have no chance to get into the points to preserve the car. Also you think he decided to retire by himself? He did have a discussion with his teammates and they all decided to retire it rather than wasting 5 more hours driving when they are 2 laps down.
I couldn't imagine getting kicked from a game that you spent a long time preparing for, and the entry fee too, theres no excuse for not putting better security into place, hopefully this happen will force their hand into reacting and fixing the error
Security can always be bypassed so I don't really blame them for the ddos attacks, unless their security is very low and terrible, the main issue is the constant disconnects which is the fault of the server. I hope that every team that got an issue has been refunded otherwise that would be dreadful but I doubt they did.
Is it even confirmed that there REALLY was an Ddos attack? Sounds to me like their servers simply couldn't handle the load and now they are using that excuse to cover it up. Because "Uhm, guys.. we got hacked" sounds better than "Uhm, we're cheap skates and didn't bother to invest into better servers."
@@LilTiddyTwista It has happened every year so far that they hosted this... so yeah i don't think it was actual DDOS attacks.
@@LilTiddyTwista There's a screenshot showing the server's actual IP address. Just let that sink in...
@@RACECAR Yep. It was right there for everybody to see on steam.
During the ACC attack period, there was one guy that maintained the servers at Apex Online Racing, he single-handedly blocked the DDOS attacks in around 45 minutes, how can a large scale company not work it out I don't think theres much excuse.
If I were Indy Car, I would be very, very nervous putting their license in these clowns’ hands
At this point, they pretty much deserves to have a shit game with their brand on it... All warnings already was done...
Nascar Ignition it's already an example of failure
Any smart motorsports series would take one look at NASCAR 21 Ignition and decide against selling their license to Motorsports Games, its Indycar’s fault at this point
They don't care and this is a point people don't understand. Look.... pandemic created a sim racing hype for no reason, this genre does not deserve that level of attention, it has nothing to offer to get it, but it happened. This caused a big spike in licensing costs. See, S397 won't even license Silverstone again just to give you an idea about how crazy things are now.
And then... Indycar, NASCAR, WEC they were paid (yes, they get paid) an amount that other studios don't want to pay. This is why none of them are going to cancel their deals with MSG. They'd rather let it roll and if MSG fails, they'll sell these licenses to someone else (cheaper now) and in the end they'll be getting paid twice. If simracing was as important to these manufacturers/series as sim racers think it is, they'd have abandoned MSG long ago already.
IndyCar already got their money for the license. You think they actually care about the game?
There are techniques to protect your systems against DDOS's like you said. Pretty insane that for such a big event like this, they don't have that in place.
Obviously simracing is different from racing on a real track, the organizers have to make sure the track is in good condition, all the facilities are there and upto standard and all that. For simracing they don't have to do that obviously because it's all just lines of code and a bunch of textures, but they then have to make sure that THAT is in good working order. If not, don't organize such a big event...
There are indeed techniques to protect against DDOS, but the best DDOS software will overcome most of them. Obviously I don't know what protection Motorsport had in place, and I bet they won't be revealing any tech details of the DDOS, but even the best protection can still be overwhelmed.
Lines of code and bunch of textures 🤦
Are you sure there are ways to protect a running server against DDDOS attacks? I mean, do you know how it works?
Best protection is just making sure the IP is not available to non contestants
@@JoakimMiller67 You can make an address not accessible, except to certain machines / programs.
Anyone trying to DDOS the address will have their messages sent to nowhere, and read by no machine.
A simple system would be to make sure only the game can send messages to the game server.
RF2 is like the dark years of the McLaren Honda collab. There are highs but a lot more lows
Hi Jimmy. Thanks for the transparency, always appreciated.
For me, the biggest problem is not the fact they use rFactor 2, the technical problems, the DDoS attacks or the Max rant. I love simracing for a lot of reasons, one of them is the fact everyone with a decent wheel (even a gamepad) and a basic PC or console can, up to a point, emulate what real world drivers are doing every weekend. We can race every car in every circuit whenever we want. Motorsports Games are hijacking that. The fact you are not allowed to even host a 24 Hours of Le Mans or an Indycar race and broadcast them in Assetto Corsa, iRacing or any sim is a joke, and they can't even give every simracer the opportunity of doing a 24 Hours of Le Mans in rFactor 2, their own sim. Of course, rF2 is obviously not capable of hosting that, but that's not the point.
To be honest, for me it's kind of weird to see streamers participating in Motorsports Games events, i think they are causing a lot of harm in this beautiful thing called simracing.
Thanks again por your input Jimmer, and good luck!
but u literally can? doesn't u? u just can't use the official branding of the serie which makes sense and this literally doesn't even matter since it's only name
@@instinktd no, it goes further than that. iRacing Indycars are not allowed to run on Indianapolis, and there has not been a 24H race at Lemans for a long time either.
@@instinktd No, you can't. You are NOT allowed to do that. iRacing told all broadcasters they have to stop all the leagues using the Indycar cars. You can't broadcast them, you can't promote them. Same thing with the alternative Le Mans 24h last year. It's not only an "official series" thing. You can't change the name to "24h of France" and get away with it.
@@Heikki360ES There are many 24h of LeMans hosted in rF2. In many different series and leagues. Don't spread misinformation.
Its not like Max is unaware of random server disconnections. He races online a lot, in iRacing. He’s forcefully raising a point of view that’s common about RF2. For Max this was a calm assassination, his F1 engineers wish he was this chilled at work, but that’s likely because there’s time to think/brood between stints in a 24hr race. I hope those who can fix RF2 take this seriously, because it is. I was enjoying this stream and the red flags definitely killed my interest in this race.
Nevermind, I’m already looking forward to Daytona 24 now, because S&M is fun 😹
I think what people are most upset about is the average simracer can no longer compete in an “official” Le Mans 24. They put all this money into this event for just pros to be able to drive. Anyone can enter the iRacing races assuming they have the license and content.
Simracing is supposed to be raceable for anyone. At the moment with Motorsport games it isn’t. iRacers can no longer run with friends in the Le Mans 24 or even race in the Indy 500.
Couple that with terrible race control and bad servers and you have a recipe for disaster. I don’t think there’s any defending Motorsport games
Max was annoyed but pretty calm
This is why I love your channel. Good sensible balanced knowledgeable views, backed up by some laid back, chilled content. Great stuff. You put so many sim racing content creators to shame.
Jimmy and max should have a talk together about how to do a better event, and then do it.
It's really a shame that they can't figure out a better system for such a prestigious and fun event.
They must Use IRacing or AC but then they must Use Mods
The better system is called iRacing, the issue is money and unfortunately MSG threw more at it.
Random disconections are the everyday in RF2, don't blame any external attack 'cos is not needed. When a sim sucks at something it is worth to call it out
And isn't it even a bit of a 'flex' that people even CARE enough about 'Sim-Racing' to bother organizing a DDOS attack to interrupt an event?
Or is this community more 'competitive' than I thought? I mean, is there some 'cut-throat' rivalry between like iRacing & rFactor where it makes more sense to SABOTAGE each other, rather than sort of working together to help spread the message that this 'sport' even exists?!?
Yea. I love rFactor 2 and is one of my favorite sim titles because of how it drives, but I honestly cannot understand why anyone would host a serious event that isn't a LAN party. I mean they know the netcode has issues and so do all the fans. rFactor 2 has always been a good simulator if you like Single player racing and hot lapping. its got the best drive feel out there and decent moddability, but it by no means is a good compeditive multiplayer racing game.
It's like doing a race in the real world and the stewards' computer starts having a stroke resulting in you losing a lap on the timing sheets and the stewards refuse to give it back.
They had an isolated disconnect and the rules of the competition say you get your laps back only if 4 or more contestants drop at the same time. Single disconnects are usually client issues. Otherwise people would just pull the plug if they approach a crash and do all sorts of things to gain an advantage
@@virtual_GaRy it clearly wasn't client side in this instance. Max was right to retire.
@@virtual_GaRyWhat happens when it isn't client issue? Especially in a very buggy environment with 2 red flags. Now you've seen the problem
@@virtual_GaRy beware of idiot copy-pasting this everywhere
@@goldplayz9594 Exactly. As soon as people realize that other people in the event also would've had the same degree of reason to complain about the event, then they wouldn't just pin it on Max for 'throwing a hissyfit'. It's like when a government raises the income tax and then suddenly the country's public electrical grid is 'lacking funds' and the people are wondering why their electricity's spotty. I wouldn't like to say that it's the taxpayers' fault that the public electrical grid is shoddy, the same way it's just sheer stupidity to convince us that the RF2 devs don't need to do anything because "it's just Max". They clearly need to fix things.
Congratulations that you had 4 times as many viewers in the stream as the official one!
I think there's something more to consider regarding Max' reaction. He's in the incredible competitive F1 world since he was 16. This is an environment where there is a one-hour countdown shown in the garage before each engine start and certain actions must be performed to the minute. A world where 300+ sensors record every little detail of the car. I can understand that his frustration tolerance regarding basic things like connectivity is very low then.
F1 lives a perfectionism that radiates. Max himself, as the reigning F1 world champion (!), said he spent 2 months preparing for this race alone. He honors the entire sim racing community with his participation and takes this e-sport extremely seriously. From his daily experience in highly professional motorsport, it is absolutely incomprehensible to him how an event like this can fail because of something as basic as server capacity. At least this is my assumption.
What bothered me much more was the focus on LMP2 and that the GT category was not given any attention. I think this was a good preview of what we can expect from this year on in the WEC, when LMh/ LMDh will start and the GT categories will slowly die :(
I think rfactor2 is like driving for Ferrari. Really awesome when it somehow works but always randomly breaks
Interesting race to say the least, and I completely agree with your comments and views, Motorsport Games needs to up its game 100 % to accommodate these kind of events in the future. I'm glad you made a video about all this
or better yet, they go bankrupt and the licences revert back to Iracing where even the average simracer can compete in these events, because MSG at this point doesn't deserve any of it, they just have deep enough pockets to make offers the IP holders cant refuse.
^ this.
Oh and F motorsport games
And that s why i hate sim racing usually, everyone just lets move to iracing, no fighting in the industry. How the f u like that shit monetization from iracing is beyond me. And even if rf2 is grumpy on the net side, at least is not a fortune and it has a good tire model. Even iraci g has a ton of netcode problems
@@raduoctavian2826 dude they do 4 huge updates a year.
It's like buying a game each year.
Devs don't work for free.
Tons of content, pick what u want and ur good.
I get you want to buy a game and that's it, but that's how u end up with crap like r factor 2
with the same issues it had since launch
@@mackamotorsport2593 u don t even own Iracing, and btw i had rf2 on my steam acount from a long time and for the bunch of offline racing i do it s the best sim for endurance racing with up to date cars. And at least i don t pay monthlty for a full game but well each with its own
I was waiting for jimmy to make a video about the matter. There are many people who have talked about the event (many of them ranting about it) and it's good to watch a video with a calmer and more rounded aprouch to the maner. It's true the organizers of the event should have probably seen a ddos attack coming considering the amount of money and effort spent for the preparation of le mans 24h. I also dont want to see simracing as a whole divowered by massive companies like other game franchises have in the past. Lets be honest competition amongst many small developer studios in my opinion has shifted these tipes of games away from controversy so far. What i am trying to say here is that we still have time. We can bring more awareness and aplly more pressure to the higherups to prevent something like this from hapening again or less frequently.
I hope WEC watched this disaster and is thinking: "We gained a lot of money to sell the rights, but look at this shit".
1st video in a long time with out any fast forwards. Well said. Hope we gonna see more
For big events like this I don't understand why they don't get the IP addresses of the competitors upfront and block other incoming connections. Or have a dedicated team looking at the server logs and banning spammy requests. There are plenty of ways to mitigate DDOS attacks surprised the organisers didn't get better security in place before hand..
Exactly my thoughts
Thanks for a comprehensive and balanced summary of what happened. You're probably right that they will keep running the event on their own platform, but the big names aren't likely to continue to participate. So at that point, their source of revenue will dry up, I think. Such problems have a habit of solving themselves...
What I thought was really poor towards the end of the race (when by and large the broadcast team had done an incredible job in the circumstances), one the commentators referred to Max's moment as a 'hissy fit'. It wasn't, it was an understandable and fair reaction to the events that had unfolded
Good job editor-chan getting this one out so quickly
I think the biggest simracimg events should include everyone, like the iRacing events. There's a top split with the famous names and then all of us nobodies taking part. This being exclusive to some pros and invitees doesn't float my boat a single.bit so I have no sympathy towards the event and organizers...
Why not E-Sports in Forza Motorsport games instead?
If they can't comprehensively ensure stable connections next year they at least need to be willing to fly the high profile contestants to a locally hosted event, if not mandate the whole thing take place on LAN.
DDOS attack? I think there's more at play than that to be honest. And Max has every right to be pissed. I'm not even a top class racer, just an amateur that plays racing games and I feel bad for everyone involved.
Nice rundown Jimmy. Summarised everything I needed to know in 8.15 minutes.
Extremely diplomatic, as always Jimmer.
You are right: RF2 has been in this business for a long time. They've seen it all, and it's almost certainly why they have the license for Le Mans 24hrs. They are the most experienced outfit for this sort of thing.
However, with great power comes great responsibility. There were security failings that Motorsport Games were negligent for: No DDoS protection; no backup servers ready to pick up where they left off, and considering the sheer competitiveness of this particular event *and* the fact that their platform for this event had been proven to be unstable, I can't fathom why they denied certain teams their laps back. Especially since they gave the laps back to other teams.
Unfortunately it's a lot like the D&D situation WotC are facing at the moment: The damage has been done. It IS the most prestigious virtual sim racing event; people did see the clusterfuck that went on, and if Motorsport Games do somehow retain the license to host these events then between Max's boycott calls and others following suit means that they won't have the big-name competitors next time, and those who do compete will be racing in front of an audience of zero.
It wasn't MG's fault they got DDoS'd, but how they handled and mitigated the issues (or rather, failed/neglected to do so) was 100% on them, and they fucked up.
the sad reality is that no sim is perfect for thsi kind of event and to say that ioracing wpuld be is to ignore its issues as well. the reason iracing had 2000+ entries for its leman 24 was becasue it was hosted over 50+ sesions and even then their were major connection issues and bugs reguarly. the reality is that if irenting took back the 24h of lemans they would still have to keep it to a fixed small vip crowd to ensure it worked fine and then their would be issues like piss poor tyre wear simulation and net code jankeyness .dont get me wrong im a rfactor two fanboy but i know its online is shit its single player is where the game shines and shines like a diamond their. if you could take iracings online and slam it onto rfactors phsycis and handling it would be the best game yet
For me your sense of humour, positive attitude to make the best out of a bad situation and Bacho's chilled vibes still made the event special for me. Such a shame that some really enthralling racing was overshadowed by the issues. Congratulations on your 9th place.
I feel like MSG will not fix anything, cling to the license and the event will lose meaning and die slowly. I hope from the ashes will rise something great, on a better sim.
Msg doesn't have the funds to fund all it's projects let alone fix RF2. They will likely be selling their assets including RF2 within 12 months as their liquidation begins
I do hope they sale rf2 to someone better as in it s self is a great sim, i am driving it constantly multiplayer and singleplayer and in my opinion and eyes its really good, there is a lot of work that has been done and still needs to be done to get to be more competitive but ppl saying iracing should be the staple it s wrong imo, sadly rf2 is only being hurt because of MSG and it triggers me greatly
@@raduoctavian2826 hoping it's Microsoft and Turn 10 studios
This is less like a car reliability issue and more like a track infrastructure problem. Like the road coming up at Bathurst a few years back, or the electrical system at Monaco failing causing delays
Well spoken and entertaining while informative, you did good on this one.
I'm already laughing @IndyCar for the virtual Month of May. 😬
A company just has to make a simulator for WEC just like Kunos did for GT World Challenge with ACC. (with amazing physics/sounds/graphics/endurance racing) That would be insane and it would sell like crazy, I have no idea why it isnt in the market yet. It would literally make millions.
Cause it isn't as simple as it sounds. Hell Niels Husinkveld did a vid last week describing how WRC Generations uses the most basic pedal inputs from 20+ years ago and still fucks it up
Or.... allow third party developers like RSS to make mods for ACC which is a proven game with decent physics and good multiplayer support.
agreed. And i think fia should help
It would also cost millions. It's not that simple.
@@Dischingo please, let's leave ACC out of modding ! One of the reasons why it works so well is that it's absolutely rock solid in terms of physics cohesion. A small team designing the physics for all cars to the exact same standards with the same methodology, and nicely optimized since ACC is specialized for a single type of cars.
If we introduced mods into that, it would soon become unbalanced, uncoherent between mods, and unoptimized. It would essentially become rF2 all over again.
What they need to do in cases of these random disconnects to stop issues from happening in the future is either A, have the AI take over your car until the person gets reconnected (give them a time frame) B. take their average lap time and use that time until the driver reconnects , again, giving the driver a time frame to get back on before losing laps.... that seems like the best way to handle it tbh
I left RF2 / Sim racing for almost 3 years now and it looks like it is still the same as in the past. I organized quite some races with FairPlay Simracing and it was always a pain in the ass when these problems occured. Like you said it is a shame that they couldn't fix the sim while they had multiple chances.
What's wild about the Virtual getting red flagged is that the real-life Le Mans 24h has *NEVER* been halted. Even in 1955.
RF2 would have had disconnects regardless of a DDOS attack on their servers because the netcode is horrible. Fix your game!
Tuned in every now and the to see how you were doing but I didn’t see any of this happen. Glad I refunded rf2 when I had the chance tbh. Great work on your end jimbo but I just wish this could have turned out a different way that could at least put a smile on your face
a solution to the conectivity problem could be to have everyone meet up in the same place and have the event hosted as non online lan or something along those lines, from there its just a question of equipment and sponsors i guess
The good ol 24 hours of runescape was goated
Good to see the F1 world champ showing genuine emotion over a sim event, racing is his passion even if it’s just pixels
I remember one of the iracing LeMans top split races had a protest and teams retired after stopping on the front stretch, and i was in the booth on racespot live. Thanks for giving props to the comm crew keeping things up during red flags
It's strange that these disconnects did not happen during any of the earlier VLMS races and are very rare in league racing also.
ngl the Runescape gameplay was a goat move Jim
but seriously Motorsport Games NEEDS to get their shit together and fix the shit they have, or give it up entirely
Or just sell it to Microsoft
I was gonna try to defend the game with my experience in FM7 that disconnects are similar to mechanical failures in real life but then I remembered how much everyone in the fm7 community hates the servers and complains about disconnects but have just accepted it because it's been 3 years since the last update...
And also those events don't cost $2000 to enter
Wonder what FM7 is..
@@JoakimMiller67 forza motorsport 7?
At least it's Forza Motorsport 7, it's just better, way better than any other games. Why with the disconnects, though?
You've had issues with disconnects in races?
> disconnects are similar to mechanical failures in real life
Not really to be honest. In real life teams are responsible for mechanical failures - it's up to them to make reliable car, they can influance the reliability.
When server randomly disconnects you, you do not have any influence on those issues.
I hadn’t heard of the controversy, but I’m glad y’all are here talking about it. The public conversations force these developers to do better.
While there are a lot of theories around the disconnects happening around the rain, and debating whether or not a DDOS actually took place, it should also be noted that the race server was visible IN THE PUBLIC SERVER BROWSER, with the IP listed there for anyone to see. If they didn't have DDOS protections in place, they made it awfully easy to orchestrate one.
Props to those commentators keeping the convo going, they did a great job
For sure - security should been on the top of the list to ensure the integrity for all involved. It’s too bad RF2 missed the boat on that for some odd reason.
Well like you said ddos attacks are fairly well known and there are countermeasures to it which the event organizers did not take to ensure smooth sailings, you could take a random disconnect from the server side as like a mechanical issue needing to do repairs in the garage which does happen in Le Mans 24hr and rng is still a factor like how the Toyota broke down 5 mins from the end in 2017 but unlike a mechanical issue where the cause is faulty manufacturing or assembly, or riding a bump too often or getting into a collision, a server disconnect by the game/organizer side is like the FIA going "oops we spilled coffee on our monitoring equipment for these competitors, we scrambled to replace them asap but we will not go through the trouble of reinstating the laps we failed to record thus these competitors will now be a few laps behind despite running smoothly during our own mistake in race control" like what was so hard for the organizers to just reinstate the lap when they knew themselves that the game they made has the tendency of disconnecting users from time to time
Great video Jimmy. I feel for the competitors. Licence exclusivity is clearly hurting the top level of sim racing. Trying my best to hold out hope for rFactor 2 as a platform because I find it so lovely to drive, but it's not looking good.
I really felt for the comms team last night you could tell they were filling time. And they couldnt talk in depth.
Its sad that Max has come out of this worse than MSG here. If i was him id be just as mad and im sure so would many.
In short, I agree. In long, I agree.
Thanx this clear report. It helped me to get a good picture.
And You're right this is going to hurt the simracing
Most other big Esports events host it at a single venue with all the clients on site. Not that disconnects cant happen, but it's far less likely to be attacked by third parties and is generally easier to manage.
yeah 40+ teams running same time with 3-4 people in the team on the pretty big rigs compared to keyboard+mouse is def easier to manage localy, in one place
Solution: Iracing hosts the 23 Hours of France
Great video Jimmy. I'm loving how I no longer have to upload highly critical sim racing videos because other people are flying the flag into battle for me. Cheers.
Dude, you should do a video about your own opinion on this controversy
It comes down to laziness, actually getting down to the problem, and finding solutions, it will not happen again. I feel for every sim racer who was affected by this altercation.
Motorsport Games definitely has a list of priorities that it will be addressing. Ensuring RF2 can provide a stable connection is definitely one of them. It’s on the list… somewhere after the more important priorities like hoovering up exclusive licences and walling them off from the wider world of sim racing.
Their number one priority is going bankrupt.
I hope Assetto Corsa 2 will buy all licenses and make best game ever !
Cant wait for next year, it will be epic moment for sim racing
As well as a collab with Forza Motorsport
Tbf max handled it pretty well I personally don’t think I’d be able to contain my rage against rfactor 2 I’d have probably been banned if I was in his shoes
They could fix this easily by making it like good old counterstrike. Packet overflow would mean it's temperarily calculated cliënt side while attempting reconnects
Opens video.
Hears “Motorsport Games”
“Ah I see…”
rFactor 2 is fundamentally broken.
Knowing Motorsport games it's a miracle the servers even still work for rf2 such a disgrace to everything they touch.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Jimmy it's such a shame that this whole event was an absolute mess.
Create a gizmo that when a team is disconnected it "converts" it into a technical problem with the car, tyre blowout that meant the car had to be collected on a truck and taken behind pitlane for work, then roll them out when it's working/connected again. 50 such scenarios could be worked out for different spots on the track or different issues, wheel coming off if it's within 30s of a pitstop or fuel sensors not working properly if it's a couple laps before the end of the fuel etc. It'd be BS but it'd add some playable realism (yes, I play Tarkov..) style cover-up for the fact.
If they really want E-sports racing to step up and grow they will have to start with organizing these races locally on a LAN with all competitors on sight, like every self respecting other big e-sports event.
That’s not really completely necessary if they just play on a game that works on a base level.
@@dementionalpotato well, you'd want to eliminate clientside issues as well, or at least have full control since it is the biggest event of the year.
@@florisbackx1744 Yeah you’re correct mostly, but esports events are hosted online all the time and this shit doesn’t happen. But this event also is bolstered by it’s the competitors actually streaming it and it’s not really super competitive to begin with.
@@dementionalpotato all big name tier 1 eSports events of competitive games are all taking place on LAN
CSGO, Valorant, any fighting game that exists, LoL, DOTA 2, Call of Duty, Fortnite, Apex Legends, and other games I might've forgotten about
All of them are LAN, same for Gran Turismo's eSports league. The only time those games were all online-only were during the entirety of 2020 due to the pandemic.
I don't know where you got the idea that all competitive eSports games and their events take place online but that is 100% false when they're all grassroots in the late 90's and early 2000's.
@@dementionalpotato if they want to make a event at this size, LAN is mandatory.
Most disconnects on other sims are client side problems/bad internet connection. This is just ridiculous!
hahahhahaha
lol no.
The only way these events will ever get round this issue is to have the event held in one place with teams allocated their own rooms but the whole thing ran off one local network.
That intro music, like falling in darkness.
So if this is an Endurance race don't you think the organizers should be testing Endurance servers? like WTF its 2023, we easily have the tech. They don't give a shit about their own game or the people that play it.
A $2000 entry fee means you don’t get to throw your hands up and go “Servers, guys, am I right?”
That’s barely acceptable on Xbox Live and I pay $100 a year for that.
You hire or farm out some bulletproof netcode and enough scaling to accommodate all the viewers that want to watch.
Remember, the le mans 24 hours server was findable trough the server searcher on steam. To many people tried to join, and it crashes. Not a ddos.
It's been a very long time since I've been to F1, but even as a kid I remember there were event security and local and federal police present. No different on the internet, when say Intel or AMD host a virtual event, all the security and mitigations are in place so the stream can go on. Maybe it's time for a RF3 or just host a different event at a different track and sim? We're not mostly here for the track or the sim. We're mostly here for the personalities and sim drivers. Spa, Watkins Glen, Zolder, wherever works for us to watch.
Pre video comment: I jumped on this vid as soon as I saw it pop up, really want to hear what you think.
I like rF2 as a single player, even thought I 1: don't play it much for health, and 2: not played it much since Studio 397 took over. There is a new company now, right?
Apologies because this turned into a bit of an essay but here goes
As far as I understand it. rF2 is still being developed by Studio 397 but Motorsport Games own Studio 397 and as a result they own rF2. And if course Motorsport Games have been hoovering up Motorsport licences like Oprah Winfrey on opposite day.
The optimist in me hopes having a 2x F1 champ tearing you a new one will be the kick up the arse rF2 needs to become the sim it really ought to be and I really hope it does because Iracing needs a competitor. But the realist in me is fully aware what MSG are going to do is just sit around and spin on their chairs for a year because they simply do not care.
And the thing that annoys me is I desperately want to like rF2 but I can't. The last time I tried it was when the Hyundai BTCC car dropped and I got about an hour's enjoyment before the game crashed and took my PC with it (BSoD took PC with it btw although thankfully I didn't loose anything) and because of that I've not touched it since. An rF2 experience for me is always frustrating because just as I'm starting to enjoy myself, the game has a debilitating crash, I make a small config change with my wheel that effectively bricks it making the game unplayable or because rF2 has never been able to get me to stick around I just get bored and go back to playing dirt rally 2 or AC.
As I say as much as I've bashed rF2 there I really hope this is a turning point for it and they do actually do their homework from this year
Finally a proper take for shed dwellers.
Really looking forward to what Rennsport is going to bring to the sim racing table. Game looks pretty good so far and from all reports, handles reasonably well already.
What the event really highlighted was that Motorsport Games either had the opportunity to put protections in place or fundamental issues with the game caused problems that just shouldn't have happened. Apart from the disconnects, the rain was suspiciously cancelled and the screen freezing was a big problem. It caused Max to spin and it blew up Fordzilla's engine with a money shift. Motorsport games need to prove they can run an event like this in the future otherwise it will be a miracle if they retain the license.