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300 Win Mag - Berger 200.20X with H1000
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- čas přidán 1. 01. 2022
- Trying the Berger 200gr 200.20x with H1000 in 300 Winchester Magnum.
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Simple Johnny…. Short length and 75.6gr. Do seating depth test maybe start 0.009” long and the go south…
I agree. With that long of a speed node
@@jdrollason also showed some accuracy as well
And at 75.6 gr that heavy sucker was hauling. I want to see some cinder block walls struck with that just to see what happens
I third this.
Agreed!
As an FTR shooter, I've shot thousands of these.
They're very picky about seating depth. A few thou in either direction can be a huge difference - So measure them to the ogive and not the tip. They also like to be 10-21 thou off the lands. Admittedly, that's what I know about them in .308 so we want them as long as we can get them.
The method almost everyone around me in F-Class does is the ladder method. 10-15 shots in .1 increments, 10 thou off the lands. Find the flat spot you want (in 308 I see the same "big" flat spot somewhere in the middle and a smaller flat spot towards the top end for the high node). Once you have your velocity figured out, then start tuning seating depth, 3 thou increments usually.
Again, very picky bullet, but when you find it's tune you'll be very happy. There aren't a ton of 300wm/wsm shooters in F-Class (near me, anyway.. 7mm rules the roost) but I'd like to hear from someone who shoots these in an open gun and see if our anecdotes align.
Just an opinion, but leverage from distance and capturing the vertical component of the shot fall is what an Audette Ladder was all about, with far less emphasis on the velocity values on the first runs. Velocity "Flat spots" with such small samples tend to evaporate, but group nodes that are strong by being a few charge steps wide tend to repeat.
I would pick the vertical group nodes at distance, and then tune for seating depth the same way. YMMV
Happy New Year!!!
I’ve heard the 185 juggernauts are fairly forgiving and relatively easy to find a good load. Is that your experience as well?
@@edwinlongwell that’s the bullet I’ll always use at midrange (300-500-600 yards) it’s easy to load for and easy to manage recoil. Far less picky all around.
Shanon! I shoot this bullet in FTR competition. They are VERY picky with seating depth. You got a great node there with the short length with the first 4 shots! Load some up and shoot a group! Then run yourself a ballistics chart off Bergers website with that bullet and you’ll be amazed at how far out it stays super sonic! I really like your 300 Win Mag videos, and your new idea on the ladder test!
My understanding of this method is to find a velocity node via powder charge. And then use a seating depth test to shrink the group.
Johnny please try Federal 210M primers
My 300WM did exactly what your loads did with every primer I tried until I got off the magnum primers and went to standard large rifle primers. It now has an extreme spread of 8 fps and will shoot 2” groups at 500 yards with a 180 accubond , 79.3 grains of H1000, 3100 fps average. Most people don’t know that the 300WM was developed using standard primers. In 1963 when it was released, magnum primers were not even being used yet. May not work for you but it really helped my rifle
26” Kreiger barrel, H&S stock, Jewel trigger, Remington 700 action
I use Winchester which are for both standard and magnum use… Mark and Sam after work make that point as well but for many larger cartridges
@@ewetho I also used the Winchester primers in my testing. They are very good primers but they are a little hotter than anything else that I tried so I had to adjust my powder charge by about a half grain lower or else I was blowing primers with the same charge that worked great with both CCI and Federal primers, all magnum primers also
Glad to see you making more videos recently, you are the whole reason I can reload now lol. Watched your beginner series a few years ago!
Don’t worry about accuracy, you are just trying to find the speed nodes. Then you go back and do an OCW around those nodes. Then do a seating depth test to tune to loads.
Totally agree! That's my process!
I have done extensive .300 Win Mag testing with H1000, 215Ms and 200+g bullets, especially Berger, Hornady and Nosler bullets. Frankly, it is tough to find a bad combination. I usually seat the Bergers to provide .020" jump, the Hornady ELDx run about .045 and the Accubond LR like more jump at .070". In all cases, I set final neck tension with a .3065" expander mandrel and I think that's key. My best loads are with the 210g bullets and 77g of H1000. With 200g bullets, I'd recommend you look at that 77.5g plateau.
That’s the best ELR bullet I use in my .308. Very consistent out at 1800 yards. Going to be a little light for the win mag. Better to use the 230’s for that rounds but will work
In a savage 110 with factory bull barrel. Soft seat in to the lands. Bump .002 ish in a FL die, the shoulder, or sometimes just neck size. Trim the necks. H 4831 SC, 68.3gns. Berger 190 VLD, and those that your using. Holds well in the X-ring at 500yds. Clovers at 100yds. Primers show a little pressure, not much. But, 2000ish shots later, now I need a new barrel. 300win mags are hard on barrels. Fun to shoot next to the ar15’s and the firing line at a match with a sheet metal awning above you. Thanks for the video, been watching you make them for 2.5ish years.
I have another new Douglas barrel and have 500 rounds down the Douglas barrel on the rifle , you never know when barrel prices will increase or become difficult to find
77.5 or 77.6 looks good to me now you need to find the seating depth. On my 300 wsm it was 120 thousands off the lands and my 300 win mag was 80 thousands off the lands. Good video. Happy new year
Hi JRB, I got better results with Retumbo in .300 Win Mag and my 7mm Rem Mag. Also find the heavier Bergers 220-230 are awesome. A lot of people saying that 200.20X is pernickety for seating depth. Best of luck in the development. Also I think that’s a brilliant use of shot marker combining accuracy at depth with velocity node search, Genius! May as well use the tech you have to reduce the steps needed !!
Thank you for sharing. Always informative and entertaining.
I have a custom 300 win with a proof carbon barrel. I did load work using all the same components. I was getting crazy groups like you. After about 200rds I narrowed the problem down to the Peterson brass. My brass has “doughnuts” in the neck. I changed to lapua brass and the groups immediately shrank in size and consistency. Rifle is now a sub 1/4 moa rifle.
Something to consider if you continue to have issues.
I recently got a chronograph and started using the 10-shot load development and I can definitely say it has worked out very well for me
What type of chrono? Mine needs replaced. Mistakes happened.
@@bmstylee magneto speed
@@chrismartinez8393 how are you liking it? It's a tossup between the magnetospeed and the lab radar.
@@bmstylee I love my magneto speed if your like me I'd go for the v3
I have a Browning BAR (Savannah) in 300 WM that I bought in the early 70's from the British Fleet club in Hong Kong when I was there on liberty. Been Reloading for 40+ years, 67 Grains of Winchester 760 pushing out a 150 Grain Sierra boat tail and a large rifle Magnum Primer (CCI). Tight groups at 100 yards but never measured them or muzzle velocity. Supposed to be 3100+ FPS but I don't have a chronograph so... No game I have shot ever got back up. Not exactly a precision rifle, but I like not having to manually cycle the bolt. A ten round Mag might be fun.
Love me some 300 Winchester Magnum. Wish I never sold the one I had.
Good info here. I'm looking forward to the 6.5 and 308 videos. This is content I'm looking for.
Great video! Yes, the 200.20x are all the rage in F -T/R. They took over from the hybrid 185’s.
I use the Berger 200.20x in a 300 PRC with 72.6 grains of IMR4955. Just under 1 MOA at 2970 fps. These and Hornady Atips are my go to bullets for long range steel pinging.
You might have to check belt headspace to shoulder headspace. If you’re coming in even +- .001 it can throw off the group, and you might need to add to the shoulder to stay off the belt.
I like the idea of testing different load develop strategies.
Very informative! I shoot the same bullet with 76.0 H1000, Fed 215M, OAL 3.563" = .65" 5 shot groups. 74.0 IMR7977, Fed215M, OAL 3.563" = .38" 5 shot groups. 73.5 IMR7828, Fed215M, OAL 3.563" = .5" 5 shot groups. I'm not chasing highest velocity. All loads have similar velocity so I think I've found the right velocity node. Remington 700, Bartlein barrel, Timney Calvin Elite trigger and McMillan stock.
Love the return of the target cam. Thanks!
Great work Johnny...keep up the good work...cheers from Canada
You originally mentioned that the velocities seemed pretty high. Then when you used the shorter length you dismiss the best 4 shots group you had all trip, which was at a more reasonable velocity. Why not try the shorter length and load some five shot groups in that region and a couple in the other higher velocity node With the longer length. Jumping around to other calibers in an Ar rifle isn’t going to give much information how this combination is going to run in a bolt gun. I will still watch the other videos though.
Ok so I use this “Saterlee” method religiously. I swear by it. It saves me so much time, bullets, powder and PRIMERS!! lol
Anyhow you have the right idea on looking for flat spots in velocity like your chart shows. I look for those as well. But also look for valleys. I have had better luck with dips in velocity between charge weights. The red line I see a really nice valley between 76.0 and 76.5. I would now load and play in between those charges. Load 3 or 5 at 76.0, 76.1, .2, .3, all the way up to 76.5 and shoot for groups. Once you find your velocity node then play with seating depth. Don’t try to do too much at one time. For me I always seat at .020 off the lands for lead core bullets and .050 with any solid copper bullet when shooting for a velocity node. If I can’t find accuracy at those seating depths I’ll play with seating depth a little but still using my best verity node charge weights. But generally I don’t have to do that. Especially if I’m using a tuner.
I do this test. I load ten or so rounds at the same depth and jump .02 grains. I do not shoot at a target, just over the chronograph at a berm. I then graph my data, find the flat spots in the graph and load rounds at those charge weights to check for group size. I will usually also load all the weights in between those charge weights and test them for group size. Smallest group wins. Sometimes I will check seating depth in an attempt to improve group size.
Yea 300wm vid. The chickens are happy
great bullet for F-Class in 308W(in long heavy barrel with custom chamber), but not at the same velocity, maybe don't work in magnum calibers. Also without suppressor to try small groups.
I'll start with the caveat that I shoot sling, so my accuracy standards aren't as stringent.
I'm pretty similar when it comes to load development except I don't have a Labradar and don't like shooting accuracy with the magnetospeed so I just look for flat spots in speed. Once I choose a node I'll shoot a group and mess with seating depth if I feel it's needed, although at lot of times it isn't as I mostly shoot jump tolerant bullets.
I've also been dabbling with OBT lately too. A good example is with the load development I just did with Reloder 15.5 with 80.5's in my service rifle. I ran a ladder and happened to find a nice node around 2825 fps which in my experience has been an accuracy sweet spot in a 20" service rifle. I tested 3 loads in that area and the winner ended up being 2826 avg with a SD under 10. At 300 yards from the sling it held 3/4" elevation. 4 shots grouped into .33 MOA with either error or wind on the 5th opening it to .66 MOA. It's pretty nice when you can find an awesome shooting load in 20-30 shots.
I am really looking forward to this series!!! I have been suspect of the value of the 10 shot load development method due to the statistical insignificance of the data. But, your twist on it looks like it has value.
Have never loaded anything that size. The charge weight is well above my personal record.
Just wanted to let y'all know CCI #41s back in stock at midway limit 1000 per customer while supplies last.
I like the target pic set up now. Very nice👍
The best oal seems to be the long. It produced your tightest grouping. 76.8-77.8gr at that oal produced you latest velocity curve. I think I would shoot a 5 charge weight ocw test at this oal or at 77.3gr shoot a seating depth test at 0.005” increments above and below this oal. Following standard logic, I would do seating depth first.
I'd say your problem lies either with 1. variation and unevenness of the neck thickness of the brass, 2. variations in the Berger bullets, especially ogive, boat tail and weight and 3. powder burn rate; not 100% of the H1000 might be burned before the projectile leaves the barrel. I especially observed that boat tail designs lead to more flyers if point # 3 is not achieved especially in combination with minute tooling marks in the crown. If flat bottom designs and boat tails exist in the same weight class, usually the flat bottom ones group significantly better if point # 3 is the problem. I always check "Quick Load" before choosing an adequate powder that burns 100% within the given barrel length and caliber. Just on the side, if you witness muzzle flash your powder has to slow a burning rate.
Always making great videos looking forward to live chat
You know, Johnny never shot this bad. I am not sold on this Shannon guy yet. 😒
You need to make a mirage. shield for you barrel. Get a pack of vertical blinds for cheap of the home store and some Velcro and you can make a bunch of mirage shields for dirt cheap!
I've been meaning to do that for a while. Thanks for reminding me.
The first shot group lookin like the Big Dipper. 😂
#Ursula-Major
I thought it would’ve go little faster. My 30@ rum pushed the 245 grain Berger’s at 3140 fps with no pressure and I have it pushing the 230’a at 3225 also with no pressure but that’s also with a 32” barrel. I don’t think anything under 230 with the rum is a waste and should just drop down a size but that win mag is a beast. Very nice rifle. Barrel to short for what I do but nice rifle
After watching all your videos, I feel like I owe you for student loans. Thanks for all the free content buddy!!!!
I’m just starting into reloading, I love your content, it’s helped me learn a bunch.
In this video, I think you are adding too many variables at a time. Changing charge wt and seating depth to test for both may save time but seems to make it hard to pull the best combo from the data.
I like the concept of the 10 shot load process, but I’m concerned with std dev fluctuations throwing off the data. I was thinking it might be better to do a 30rd test with 3 rounds at each weight to get a good average plus have std dev and spread data for choosing the optimal charge weight. Then progress to seating depth tests to really hone in.
I’m curious about your thoughts on using 3 rounds per wt to find the ocw.
I had a Remington Sendero in 300 WM and my groups were pretty similar no matter what I’d do. I sold it. Strangely enough I had good results from 150 grain sierra game kings I loaded just to see how fast they’d go.
Love to see the MDT chassis! Got 3 of them myself!
You got this neo
I would do 77.5 and test seating depths in 3 thou steps from the longest length out at least 10 and better to go 15 steps. Even two shots at each step for a 30 shot test.
It's like watching one man's descent into madness......
JK, keep it up and I'll keep watching.
I thought the upper end looked the best but I didn't see where the holes where on shot marker
Can’t wait for the 6.5 CM results! Looks like you are loosely following the Satterlee 2.0 method as outlined in the @LongRangeWithTheLillys vids. Keep up the great content.
I think that slowest and shortest length offered some good results. I would try and see if you could line of speeds with groups across the 3 different seating depths and ignore the seating depth and see how they were grouping in comparison to speed. But that bottom of the shortest had the best 3 shots that grouped.
One of the competition shooters I watch on youtube, says he does load work up by shooting for best SD/ES. Then he focuses on group size by adjusting seating depth. I just wonder if getting a load where the powder burn settles and has single digit deviation, if and by how much, the seating depth affects the SD's. I vote you test it in a future video. lol
Great video, lots of information. You need a different Freedom seed in that gun. Or different Barrel
Good stuff, in the progress of building a 300wsm
Happy New Year glad to see you on tonight
Hate to say it, but I finally had to turn my back on IMR and H products and switched entirely to VV. Some of their staples have been out of stock in Canada for going on a year and six months. VV while being slightly more money, is excellent quality and every product they produce is always in stock here. As for IMR and H, inexcusable.
The Sierra 169 with some Hodgdon, IMR or Vihnt powders PLEASE!!
In comparison I look at what the average velocity in your graph. When I do that test while using different powders I look at the area where it seems like the node is the velocity in this test regardless of the charge weight of any given powder from what I have experienced.
Vertical dispersion seems tells the tale of what's going on to me when I'm doing load development. I would compare the Vertical dispersion between the shots on the plateaus and see what that looks like.
I think you should go by the powder charge and look for the plateau. The powder charge determines the accuracy more so than the seating depth. Looking for accuracy in the spikes and dips is going to be futile I think. From my experience anyway....
Yep, still state of the art. Still the U.S. f-tr teams bullet of choice.
I think you should shoot three shots at each OAL keeping the charge the same. Then you go to the next charge weight and shoot three shots (1 each) at the different OAL.
New to reloading. Why worry about making high velocity does it need to be fast to be accurate?
I’m shooting 212 eld at 3.458 they liked being shorter
they say this powder a little slow , but I am trying this in 6.5 prc with 147 with a 24 inch barrel
Sounds like it is time to add the data analysis tool pack for Excel!
I'd like to see some group testing in that 77.4gr - 77.7gr charge range. All three seating depths did well in that area and I'm curious to see what groups and SDs would look like. Might provide some validation to the theory or it might shoot it down in flames, but only way to tell is to test it.
I have the same gun . Try 71 or 72 grains of RL 22 with 208 gr. Berger hybrids . I’m getting sub half inch groups .
Happy new year jrb or Shannon 🍻 great see take on 2022 in a big way. In grab the big guns. Definitely say longer with them is key find the powder charge it likes the most. Then agin powder type can change all of it maybe .
Thanks, James.
I need some help on coming up with a load using 180 grain hornady sst bullets an hodgons US869 powder with 300 win mag does anyone have a good starting point??
Thanks! 👍👍
Happy new year good to see you on
You should legally change your name to Johnny it fits a lot better.
Can't you digitally overlap the 3 shotmarker groups
Great work brother
3.55” COAL and 75.6 to 75.7 grains. 👍
I have done a number of Satterlee tests in several calibers with various bullet/powder combinations, and I can say with absolute confidence that I have no idea if it works or not. I think you're on to something with two shots with each combo, that should give a lot more data points. They might not be useful, but you'll have at least twice as many.
So many questions to ask...here are a few: will you be measuring your CBTO for each rifle before beginning seating depth tests? Will you be using the same suppressor on all guns? Can the information translate between the AR platforms and the bolt gun if the AR max length is capped by mag length which may limit jump to the lands?
PLEASE READ!!!
This "matrix method" of load development is very similar to my load development method. And, the best thing about it, I usually come up with a highly tuned load (powder/overall length) shooting somewhere around 50 total rounds over the course of 3 range sessions. The other good thing about it, bad bullet/powder combinations are usually identified within the first 12 rounds of the first iteration. That in turn, saves putting unnecessary rounds down the barrel.
But right now, I feel I can offer some advice from my experience to provide you with some direction moving forward. With that, I suggest the following:
1) Label the 3.650 group 1-10 of increasing charge weight. Label the 3.600 group 11-20 the same and finally, label the 3.550 group 21-30.
2) Overlay the results and try to identify similar points of impact of sequential numbers (5,6,7) and/or of similar end numbers that represent similar charge weights (7, 17, 27, 8, 18).
Sequential number groups suggest an area of insensitive charge weight while groups of similar ending numbers suggest an insensitivity to cartridge length. You have both of these attributes with the 76.2 and 76.5 charge weights.
Some things to consider:
1) OCW suggests that scatter group nodes tend to exist at increments of 3% of maximum charge weight. And the target strongly suggests that you have a scatter group around the 77.0 grain charge weight. So it would be very possible to see other scatter group nodes at 74.7 and 79.3 grain charge weights.
2) OCW also suggests that really good groups tend to follow an increase in powder charge from a scatter node. I see this A LOT in your videos.
3) Changing seating depth by as little as 0.005" can have a big impact on group size. This has been investigated numerously by other reloading channels.
4) Shooting single successive 0.1 grain increments can give a continuous three-shot group representation within the whole range by combining adjacent shots. eg. If you shoot a string of the following: 76.0, 76.1, 76.2, 76.3, 76.4, 76.5, 76.6, 76.7 grain, you can get an idea of how a 76.2 three shot group might look by comparing the impacts of the 76.1, 76.2 and 76.3 shots.
5) Shooting successive 0.1 grain increments can give a good idea of the velocity's standard deviation around a specific charge weight.
6) Gravitate towards the groups that are in the middle of everything.
My final suggestion: Shoot this matrix of 24 rounds.
76.0, 76.1, 76.2, 76.3, 76.4, 76.5, 76.6, and 76.7 grains at 3.655" COL
76.0, 76.1, 76.2, 76.3, 76.4, 76.5, 76.6, and 76.7 grains at 3.650" COL
76.0, 76.1, 76.2, 76.3, 76.4, 76.5, 76.6, and 76.7 grains at 3.645" COL
In closing, I would like to say that I have really enjoyed your channel for many years now. And truth be known, my load development method was greatly inspired by observing all the work you have done over the years. So thank you greatly for all the content and information you have produced and shared over the years.
Regards,
Mav
Thanks, Mav. I hope people will read this comment because it exactly explains where I'm headed. We are totally on the same page. I've been calling it the "heat map method" in my head but I really like that term "matrix method".
Leaving a comment so I can find this again later.
RL26 is a great powder for the 300 WM
Originally Scott Satterlee said to do charge weight testing then oal testing but in his newest video with reloading with the Lilly’s he said to do oal testing first then charge weight. Either way your test here is very interesting. Your videos are great keep up the great work.
Thank You for all your videos.
What about Hybrid 100V powder? I switched to it in my 6.5-284 over H1000 and got better SD numbers and velocities.
77.4gr with medium oal, shoot 5 shot group to confirm.
I was able to follow everything.
If you do the test with the 6.5, 5 charge weights at 10 lengths change your lengths to .03.
Go 77.5 and mess with seating depth after
Wow I don't see how you still have components to play with. ☹️ Haha..I loaded some 30-06 200gr smk closed nose loads with RL22 going 2750 out of my 22" Howa 1500...the primers looked semi flat, but not cratered...so might have been able to push them a little faster...l need to get a 26" barrel to see how much more power I can get out of them.
Im trying 10 charge weights 3 per charge hope this will show me sd es and speed nodes also on depth im finding jam point coming back.020 for starting point on my rifle touching land point and jam point varied a fuzz
I think shooting it free recoil with a Magnum is the biggest problem with the groups
Does having the plateau at 77.4 and 77.5 on all three seating depths show that that would be a better or the best accuracy node?
Berger recommends .030,.060.090 and .120 off the lands to test . And 73 years ago ? , I use a MPA stock plus tweaking the mags takes time my AI mags tested my patience
Good to see you on tonight
its always frustrating not getting consistent data my guess is your gun doesn't like either the bullet or the powder
Shoots just like my gamo
I wouldn't test with a can like that. The can temp and inside air density will be all over the place.
Great Vid!
Would have liked to see the loading include a set that was 75-80 thou off the lands
That's about where the 3.600" group was. My measured max was ~3.674.
You gonna do anymore with this gun and load?