Losing Religion to the Amazonian Piraha Tribe - Daniel Everett
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- čas přidán 2. 04. 2009
- Complete video at: fora.tv/2009/03/20/Daniel_Ever...
Linguistics professor Daniel Everett explains the idea of "xibipiio," a way of life he encountered while studying the language of the Amazonian Piraha tribe. Everett, a former Christian missionary, was challenged to rethink his faith after learning the Piraha's concept of experiential liminality.
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Professor Daniel Everett, author of Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes, discusses the importance of preserving dying languages. He describes his experience living with the Piraha people in Brazil, and explores what Piraha, both the people and the language, can teach us about human nature. - The Long Now Foundation
Daniel Leonard Everett (born 1951 in Holtville, California) is a linguistics professor best known for his study of the Amazon Basin's Piraha people and their language. He currently serves as Chair of the Department of Languages, Literatures and Cultures at Illinois State University in Normal, Illinois. He previously taught at the University of Manchester and is former Chair of the Linguistics Department of the University of Pittsburgh.
"Don't Sleep, There are Snakes" is an incredible book, though the lingustics part will probably intimidate many in the general public. Everett is almost fearless (I have way to much anxiety to live like he did in the Amazon). The only thing he really seemed to fear (at least to me) was coming out to his family regarding his loss of religion. That says a lot about our culture.
I empathize with how he feels. And yes it does.
@@PaulTheSkeptic how so?
@@MrBattlestar10 How so what? I was just agreeing with the OP.
Or this may mean Dan wasn't versed in Christian philosophy or apologetics.
Faith without reason is ungrounded.
@@BillyBike416 he has studied divinity and missionary work at the moody bible college, and graduated top of his class
He did. He provided them with a wind-up tape player which was essentially an audio-book in their language. The entire village congregated around it night after night with the children winding it up. They spent most of the time listening to the part where John the Baptist gets beheaded, over and over again, laughing at the absurdity of the action of decapitation. Why would anyone cut somebody's head off? They found the book to be very entertaining, but the entire message utterly absurd.
A missionary who was converted by natives. Interesting.
Great point, Redfingers. Had this tribe been encountered a few hundred years ago they would have been coerced, tortured, and killed.. the way Christianity started in many lands.
Sorry about that.
Facts!
This tribe was discovered a couple hundred years ago.
@@flyingfree333 For 200 years they've called BS when they were shown it lol. Good on them. I hope they never change.
The whole book he wrote is really fascinating, from a cultural/religious and linguistic standpoint
Wow, a language with built in attribution for information.
"They wanted evidence . . . . . . . . and I couldn't give it to them."
Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm!
😆
I've never been to the North Pole, maybe it's not there!
@@tomkeegan3782 other people HAVE been there. It doesn't have to be from your own personal experience to count as evidence. That's the beauty of it.
@@rmcdaniel423 I think the Piraha would require me to have met someone who was there to accept that 'truth'
There's no alive today who saw the explosion in Tunguska in 1908, or the Titanic sinking in 1912.
I have not seen, yet I believe these things did happen!😉
@@tomkeegan3782 that's not aplicable to religion, if I tell u mahoma went to heaven in a horse,maybe you'll say it's a fantasy. But if I say jesus did, probable you'll buy it. But unlike the events you mentioned, that can be tracked, and even prooved by physical evidence, you can not say the same about religion, you can go to the deep ocean and find rest of the titanic, where can u find today or yesterday a man with super powers like jesus?🤔 How realistic can be that?
great insights, thank you!!
Pretty cool. Good to know we still have many interesting native languages alive here in Brazil.
That's me in the jungle
That's me in the the night
Losing my religion...
Oh life is bigger
It's bigger than you
And you are not me
The lengths that I will go to
The distance in your eyes
Oh no I've said too much
I set it up...
This is fascinating! I'm going to go watch the full lecture right this instant! : D And to think that when I read the title, I thought this wouldn't be of any interest to me.
I think I quite like this language/culture. I wish our culture valued evidence as much.
The jungle tribe pwned him logically. This is just many colors of awesome.
This is a reply to a question you posed over half a year ago, but I think I have an answer for you. The Piraha's language requires, as part of its grammar, that the speaker use a specific set of endings when relating a story to indicate whether they a. Saw what happened firsthand, b. Surmised what happened from evidence, or c. what told by someone else who did either a or b. As you can see, it is impossible to proselytise grammatically in Piraha!
The story about jesus says it all, maybe their world view eliminates all the bullshit and manipulation that western society is plagued by.
We increasingly value empirical evidence (the basis of science) above other information, they have entirely based communication on those principles - beautiful.
How terribly amusing! The Piraha use, in their everyday discourse, the same criteria we "civilized" folks use only in our courts of law: If you didn't actually see it or get it from an eye witness, it's inadmissible. Reflect upon Jesse Bering's information in his book, The Belief Gene, and you see that the Piraha might be the psychologically healthiest culture alive!
Without a concept of history or abstract thought, I highly doubt that.
@@jovanpando5407 well, it seems to me that not having history or abstract thought isn't a factor for their happiness.
@@jovanpando5407 what has history got to do with that lol
@@unusuario5173 okay but there a basic tribe in. The Amazon and we have spaceships with technology and we can reflect on our history and ideas for inventions only conceived not proven
@@shsdhdjshs396 I don't see how that's related to being psychologically healthy. No one said anything about technological advancements
Impressed. You realised that you didn't have evidence and so you changed your beliefs. That's commendable. Many fail to do this, as simple as it might seem to be to do.
@Thisishappening "It's better to know what you don't know. Better not to assume you have everything figured out."
awesome man.
Vary well put.
I LOVE them already!
Wow! I would probably fit in with this tribe. I think so much in terms of current experiences.
Haha interesting. You must feel lonely in the west. The Pitaha are very isolated but when corona is gone you cam take a trip to visit other Amazonian tribes, they might have different language and know the concepts for past and future but i can guarantee that they have a very similar culture of living in the moment the piraha are just the extreme.
Also in upper Orinoco river theres a tribe you can't visit but they only have 1,2,3 & many.... so similar cultures over there.
So just pick a tribe you can visit and have some fun hunting or fishing or picking fruits just to eat and share for the day and live in the present
Piraha Guy: So Daniel this ah Jesus fellow...um what did he look like ?
Danie: Oh I never saw him
Piraha Guy: Oh so your dad must of met him ?
Daniel: No he haven't
Piraha Guy: Friends ?!
Daniel: Nope
Piraha Guy: So why you're telling us about him ???
Daniel :👁️👄👁️
Em, lets follow your logic, you haven't seen Albert Eisten or George Washingtong, but that dosnt mean they dont exist🤣
@@yunedginiebra3883 they're not questioning on whether he exists but how easily they can get in contact with in a way makes sense to their own understanding 🙄
I would like to read his book now. Interesting hw religion evolved into our culture.
There are many ways you can find your way out of religion, if only you seek the truth and are willing to follow the evidence where it leads
I agree. It will do people in more complex societies more harm than good to forget what our predecessors worked very hard to achieve. We can learn a thing or two from the Pirahã (or Hiaitíihí, meaning 'the straight ones') though, especially the concept of "xibipíío" (experiencing the here and now). I'm sure this is a bit of a simplification, but it seems to indicate proximity. In simple cultures and societies such as the Pirahã, such empirical methods, I can imagine, are needed....
Á á Í í Ó ó
I think it goes beyond that.....like all stories are the same. Like every movie I watch its more or less predictable, there's the beginning where you get to know the characters, the call to adventure, the wise mans aid, the preliminary battle, the dilemma, the final battle/climax, and the resolution. Different names and situations but the formulas always the same. I think it all speaks to the human mind and the unconscious, archetypes and such.
The book, “Don’t Sleep, There are Snakes” is readable, in fact I can’t put it down, but Everett is spiritually dense. God seemed everywhere in his time with the Piraha but he can’t see that. His wife, almost dead from malaria, begs him in her delirium to check the baby, who she thinks is on the dirt floor with roaches. Everett repeatedly says No, the baby is ok, until finally he goes to check on the baby, who is on the floor with roaches. He calls that “mother’s intuition,” as if simple intuition could invent a picture that precise. The Piraha merely expose his lack of faith, they didn’t cause it. He couldn’t tell them about Jesus because he never knew Jesus.
Eh, just because you can't explain something doesn't mean you can explain it.
I don't disagree with your comment, but I'm unsure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with mine. I sure can't explain everything, but neither can Everett, although he tried to explain everything away. Sometimes giving the benefit of the doubt to the spiritual aspect of life is the best way. Everett seems hard-headed - not a bad person, just hard-headed.@@avradio0b
What's your source? This is what I've heard:
"Moreover, the Piraha tell no creation myths and don't make up stories or draw pictures. They believe in spirits that they directly encounter at times, "but there's no great god who created all the spirits, in the Piraha view" Everett says."
Some people do learn from this tribe, and other similar tribes. Daniel Everett, for one. Many who have read his book or heard him speak. After all, as the 'Deep Forest' album lyrics say: "Deep in the forest live some little men and women. They are our past, and maybe, our future." Check it out on CZcams.
This xibipiio sounds a little like quantum theory, which describes subatomic particles blinking into and out of existence in accordance with HUP.
Every language can express everything. The differences between languages is what is mandatory to express.
Not really, although I also learned that in linguistics class. The Piraha language has no numbers beyond maybe 1, 2, a lot. They cannot express calculus or astronomy or even history in their language without importing some new words.
Yeah, but the idea of suffixes to tell how information was acquired is an inspired idea. It's unique among the languages I've read about.
Who else spoke with him on his Reddit AMA?
Being interested in linguistics I found his book fascinating, and as an atheist I cheered when he became one, too.
xibipiio reminds me of how some cultures in fiction writting say things like "I see you, Whatsyourface." Interesting.
actually he did translate them, i saw it in another video and he was logically outgunned by these tribesmen. Then realized that his book could not give the answers
2^16 is actually 65536
yeah... and it is more than 40.. isn't it?
"Why are you telling us?" Funny!
Hi bro "still alive"?
"That scratches and it scratches well, but that isn't where the itch is." Amazonian shaman to a Christian missionary.
\\][//
2020..I've seen your comment
@Reip187 and I highly encourage you to watch it BTW. I watched it all and found it very interesting. It's quite long. Hour at least.
This little clip is about all of THIS sort of thing that is in there. The actual video is about lost language and the knowledge that could be lost. IT's really easy to follow and has very interesting info on linguistics and practices.
Most of it is about this tribe and their language, which is fascinating.
What video are you talking about?
@@michaelflores9220 Haha...wow I have no idea now. That was so long ago. What's even more strange is that this reply was a reply to myself (Reip187 was my old account name) to expand on the comment I must have made before. If you can find that comment (Either REip187, or this name now I would guess), you will probably find what I was talking about.
Damn, the youtube comment system's changed a lot
Fascinating on many levels, not the least of which is the irony of the converter losing conviction.
He looks like Tim Allen. Ohhh snappppp.. Jungle to Jungle. There is a connection!!!!
...in that strict observance of certain activities needs to be taken if they are to survive. Since the Pirahã seem to be very conscious about their surroundings (take Everett's [2008] book title, 'Don't Sleep, There are Snakes'), xibipíío remains a very important element to their life.
Everett (2008:9) recounts that "Gahióo xibipíío xisitoáopí!" ("The plane xibipíío left vertically!") was screamed by the Pirahã after he arrived to their village. So, this was to be remembered for some reason....
fora.tv/2009/03/20/Daniel_Everett_Endangered_Languages_and_Lost_Knowledge
-- The full video.
You are so kind.:-) I'm asking myself,'What does it all mean?' Both faith, peoples' loss of faith, and the whole shamanic thing which, as far as evidence goes, seems to have been the first religion (at least the first religion we have EVIDENCE for, one could hypothesize there were religions before shamanism if one wanted to).Shamans in south African can 'read' the cave paintings of prehistoric times (see Graham Hancock's book 'Supernaturals')
I love that he and his wife studied this tribe and their rare language, but abhor that they were there to try to convert them to Christianity. I'm glad he finally accepted truth over dogma, but it cost him his wife and 2 of his indoctrinated children. That is the problem with religion.
is there a full version in free access?
This video is a huge tease. But you can watch his TEDx talk. It's here on CZcams. Very insightful.
After watching it, I am getting his book.
I'm super interested to see what they think of mathematics
@krissy4nik could you please give me some of these "critical questions" so I may ask myself?
@Reip187 One of the things I found most interesting about it is that this guy has added some new evidence that goes against commonly accepted assumptions for all languages by people like Pinker, and Chomsky. I can't explain it, but he does in the video. This brings in a peer review aspect to his talk which makes it much more of an educational watch than just "lol religion is stupid".
Waldeinburg, I've been through a lot with Jesus, the Bible and all that stuff. I've read that whole Bible. I grew up in South Georgia, and was trained and taught that Jesus was the only way to Father. I was taught Jesus was God in the flesh, and that he died for every single person on the entire planet. However, I never really questioned things until later. When I did, I opened up a can of worms. I found out many things I was taught were lies. It was sad. That's why I'm a Deist now.
I like this tribe...
I already gave my source in my last comment. And notice I didn't say "creation" myth, but "creation-LIKE" myth, because it isn't actually a creation story in the sense of "the beginning of the universe". And a detailed description is also given by Nevins, Pesetsky, and Rodrigues (2009:392) in their critique on Everett's 2005 paper, "Cultural Constraints on Grammar and Cognition in Piraha".
Yes.
1:02 _xibipiio_ works like _squanch_ from Rick and Morty lol
“They wanted evidence and I realized I couldn’t provide it as well as they had wanted.”
I mean yeah bro. If you want to destroy someone’s world and life view you need to provide a evidence to support your claims while also showing why they are wrong. After evaluating the whole pie from both sides you go from there. Like a courtroom.
People laughed at that? 🤨🤨
@lefredvoncarstein
"very far" holds many suppositions.
Evidence. What a concept....
@ahmetatmaca There is a link to the full video right in the description.
There's a pro and a con to this kind of thinking. I don't know anyone who witnessed the slavery of Africans in America or the Holocaust or the "Forgotten Holocaust" (Involving Korea) , but I'm sure it happened. I also never saw or met any ancient people from the Mayan and Aztec civilizations, but I know that they existed. Sometimes documents and the passing down of stories from generation to generation is enough. (Or maybe it isn't. Who knows)
I should also mention that the existence of Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle isn't necessarily provable, but it most certainly is accepted that they were alive at one point and they are mentioned in history text books. Not questioning the distant past and distant future is definitely liberating in a way, but it can be hindering as well.
+Omar Morales Luna I see your point, though as the OP may have alluded, had this guy been like some missionaries from the past, the past might have affected the Piraha's future in a big way...idk, I'm glad they have been able to live like this and be happy, but I think there is a reason why most cultures (including most hunter/gather/native ones) believe in things they can not immediately see...but different strokes I guess?
*raises hand sheepishly* umm... I knew someone who's parents were alive during slavery, and who themselves were alive during Jim Crow era . It was my grandmother. She and counless other people and "artifacts" (can't think of the right word here) from those times and the times of the other historical events you mentioned are the proof of existence/ historical fact. I think the point here was that when asked by the piraha ppl to provide some proof, he couldn't point to a person or artifact that backed up what he was saying to them.
The irony is this kind of thinking is what PREVENTS slavery or holocaust type of events.
They have some passing down of knowledge through generations as well. Everett writes about that in his book. I like your argument because it made me think: Imagine people of different ethnicities knew nothing of history, wouldn't our society be in a better state than it is now? Imagine how civilized and peaceful this could be if it weren't for the huge mental burden of history.
I try not to believe in anything. I seek after those things which inspire me. Why are you diminishing my words? I'm just telling you that something indescribable happened. If you don't believe me just say so.
The experience I had was one of TOTAL KNOWING. I recognized that state I was in.. my first thought was "this again!!" and I'd never experienced THAT in my life.
@WolYou My pet theory is that hope/faith/religion were necessary for our early ancestors to survive and this hardwired predilection became genetically ingrained through natural selection. Hopeless humans simply don't do well in extreme survival situations.
The Piraha are fascinating because their language seems to have such a profound affect on their reality, that it overrides any natural tendency toward religion disposition.
Fair Witness in Robert A.Heinlein's _Stranger in a Strange Land_
correct me if I'm wrong but I believe those are called evidentials.
I'm interested to hear more about the reasons that made him leave faith, though, because if it was just what he said in that video, I'm sorry but this would be so stupid! I don't want to jump into conclusions, that's why I need to hear the whole experience from him and if there's more to it than "he never met Jesus"
Of course, there was more to it. He merely picked that example as it's a great way to show how when you start applying logic to something once considered sacred you start to see the cracks in the stories you've been told your whole life. You question a little more, then eventually you realize pretty much nobody has any clue what they're doing or what's really going on and are just repeating what they've been told their whole lives too.
Wow, I was about to make a troll post just for kicks (because I do that sort of thing), but it looks like you beat me to it.
Is he saying the r in Pirahã as an alveolar tap?
@SubconsciousGatherer Who is to say that is exactly what would happen? What proof do you have of THAT statement?
Intresting! For a second I thought you were talking about Turkish because we have exactly the same verb features in Turkish. Daniel geldi. (Daniel came. I saw him coming.) Daniel gelmiş. (Daniel came. I heard from someone else that he came.)
Listen this: Gelmişmiş. I heard that he heard that he came.
Really good point. But what it does do is make you take a second look at things, and I think science will hold up, while religion may not.
What does he look like? Is he white or brown? Does he have a beard? How old did he look? How long did you talk to him? Did you get pictures? Does he have three heads like some people say?
What a wonderful little quirk of humanity. This is like mind candy for an atheist. The only thing I'm thinking though, these people obviously don't have a written language. Writing is always in the past. Those who write are writing to people in the future from the past. That's why the very first writers were very uncomfortable even though they were skilled orators. I wonder how writing would affect their sense of immediacy.
Do they have any stories? He said they don't have a creation myth. I wonder if they tell any stories. Could they say "I heard this and I heard that." every time they say a sentence? I just wonder how it would work. What about art? Do they make pictures of things in the past or things that don't exist and never have existed?
I imagine once they start thinking of writing as equivalent to listening to someone speak, except said person isn't there, y'know, in person, they'd be perfectly confortable with it. Kind of like how we watch videos on youtube and don't think much of it, whereas primitive peoples who were first introduced to photography and such thought the camera was some kind of soul-stealing device because they didn't have the concept that you could see a person that wasn't actually there in person.
Same with art, I guess, especially stuff like renaissance art. But not post-modern abstract meaningless crap.
there is a story "the jaguar that killed the dog" that they tell in their tribes but once the guy that saw it will be gone, they won't tell it anymore. Or at least, that's what I have understood from what I have read.
Their story isn't tell anymore once the people who have saw/heard/logicallydeducted it personnaly are gone.
@@lucasgranville9286 Oh wow. That's a whole other level of immediacy. So by that I logically deduce they don't have an oral tradition? Thanks for reminding me about this. I'll have to read the book.
@@PaulTheSkeptic I think they have tradition. I don't know if it's about stories or not.
They can transmit knowledge and tradition by oral.
One thing that I know is that tradition can exist without stories.
@@lucasgranville9286 Oh. I hadn't thought of that. When I think "oral tradition" I think stories.
How do you know that the universe IS changing?
icke11234 Well, because awareness doese not move ;-) Just the Content.
Not the universe is moving, experiencing is moving.
Its worth it, I did the same thing.
Why people do not learn from this tribe?
His book, 'Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes' was read by him on Radio 4 ,in the U.K. It included a field recording of what the Piraha said was a jungle spirit. I t had a very funny, high pitched voice. The natives playing tricks on him? Or something more mysterious? Read that there are accounts of natives taking ayahuasca (psychedelic brew) and having SHARED hallucinations. Terence McKenna has also made that claim.I read claim that natives can see the city on ayahuasca, even tho they've never been
Just thinking out loud: I wonder what the Piraha tribe thinks of UFO’s. Do they have any concept of them? Have they had any direct encounters?
Anything that flying and isn't identified is an UFO. Depending on how precise you want to be even a bird of a species you've never seen before may be called a UFO. So I'd wager the technical answer to your questions is “yes”.
imo the cases are two:
1) what missionaries preach is false, and then missionaries' deeds are as wrong here as there, and no more here than there (lies do not become more acceptable because you're accustomed to them);
2) what missionaries preach is true, and in that case to tell the truth is not objectionable, ever.
@intelliGENeration
It also begs the question, "Why would a god care if anyone believes in him? What would be his motivation?" Do we humans, being gods over little animals, care if THEY believe we exist? Does anyone care if the squirrels believe in us? Or the frogs?
Coming from "mastery"
Me too. Currently reading it.
With heavy use of the 'I deduced it' suffix I guess. I'm no sure Dan's right that they're 'the ultimate empiricists' though; for one thing it would probably be extremely difficult to articulate empiricism in their language.
That's me in the corner...
I wonder if he ever went back.
This like Eckart Tolles power of now or j.krishnamurti, living in the present!
@fardrum Yes, you got it! peace.
I've been to Germany. Lovely place. :)
....But in our airports, we don't need to worry because we have written texts on computers and screens that can record every flight that comes and leaves. So there is some importance put to every event that the Pirahã can experience and remembered for later reference.
Some intellectuals blatantly call the Pirahã "atheists," but they DO have religion in some shape or form. I don't see much collective radical empiricism when it comes to their shamanic practices....
Why use Apple Pc
No, you're just jumping to extremes. We can have our culture and they can have theirs and we can learn from them as well. Simple as that.
2^16=65536
"an ancient day"
@ErieMarkus Were you actually there when god said that?
@jojoinhere: empiricist is what he ment.
@SubconsciousGatherer I am not wrong. Why should I trust people who are proud of their ignorance? You are proud when you say "I have no idea!", but that is just being proud of ignorance.
Faith is not just blind guessing or acceptance. If it was I would not have been changed from a strong atheist to a Christian in a moment.
Proof that we are indeed born atheist. It takes external information in order to start believing in a god. It's certainly not self-evident (as most theists would have us believe).
That's wrong my friend... I am 21 years old. 4 years ago, I use to think the same way you did, until I had a encounter with God. A personal encounter, and that completely changed the way I used to think or see everything, because I had just seen the Lord. He is real, and I have experienced His presence in my life, and do every day, and it's wonderful. No one ever forced anything to me, I just cant deny what Ive seen, and What Ive heard, and what burns inside of me, which is the presence of God.
The Piraha aren't as easily swayed.
@Yesica1993
Oh and btw, if I'm wrong then please correct me :)
Rogan.
I've never taken psychedelics (ok apart from a quite low dose of mushrooms that wasn't really very radical in it's effects) as I'm quite highly strung, and the thought lingers that I'm missing out (the idea of someone going thru life never having a visionary psychedelic experience HORRIFIED Terence McKenna).Um, I suppose there's non drug mysticism.
They focus only on now and demand evidence? Sounds like Zen Buddhism would be more compatible with them.