Hemi 6.4 (392) Cam - Stage 1 vs Stage 2 vs Stage 3 on the Dyno
Vložit
- čas přidán 7. 08. 2024
- Comparing 3 different camshafts for the Hemi 6.4, stage 1, 2 and 3. Discussion on the results and thoughts on which works best and why.
Special thanks to SRT Autoworks for their assistance.
Filmed on site at Unigroup Engineering, Sydney Australia.
For those wondering about comparison with the stock camshaft. This vid is Stage 1 vs stock cam: • Cam Upgrade - Hemi 6.4 - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Absolutely best video and best channel who replies to comments properly. 100% RESPECT
I appreciate that!
Glad to see you are getting a lot of views the pages I shared it in loved it
Thank you again!
Great video thanks for the info!!
I'm not sure if you've done testing, but the bigger than "stage 1" type cams typically need a better intake. I know these cars pick up pretty crazy power with an ITB setup, which doesn't mean it's *necessary* for an ITB, simply that a tuning of the intake path has a lot of gains to be had. Or blower to solve it like most folks do. Head work probably would help too. I am going for a drop in cam on my stock 6.1 with headers and the factory 6.1 intake (which outperforms the 6.4 at high rpm). If I don't reach 420whp there, I'll possibly attempt the speedmaster stack injection setup. PITA compared to some of the more expensive kits, but the 3k difference in price leaves a LOT of room for further changes, boost, fuel system, even a built motor If I do assembly/teardown, pay for machine work/balancing.
Great video. Very informative
It's hard to convince people that the largest camshaft isn't always the best
Very true!
True, but all depends on your application and what your using it for
@@trentmatthews5521 10 second grocery getters
@@leopapio683 Yeah, baby! I have to put my eggs in seatbelts
Exactly right i’d be going the stage 1. More power mid range, my sweet spot.
This is a very informative video mate and really interesting I guess it’s a ‘stage 1 cam’ for me all the way, the race would be over well before redline versus the other 2 & 3 car, I’m going to share this video on a few pages for you mate
Stage 1 for me as well, especially for 0-100kmh (0 to 60mph) works much better with stock converter.
Not a lot of difference once moving, especially with the 8speed transmission keeping you between 4500 to redline.
Appreciate the share!
As mentioned in the video, higher stages would move the power peak higher. The car needs to be setup to take advantage of that; higher rpm intake runners, internals, gear ratios, etc.
Glad I came across this; I'm starting my search for a cam; this information is very useful. Like many, I love the "chop", but I'm not willing to either sacrifice low end performance for it, or spend additional $$$ upgrading stall converter and other mods (to achieve higher rpm range) to enable a Stage 3 to fully activate. This tutorial has made me more excited, and comfortable, with the Stage 1 idea.
Stage 1 gets a decent 'chop' if you put to the work in. There's another vid on just on the black stage 1 car. You can hear it there. Sounds quite decent. I can send a link of you can't find it.
@@unigroupengineering Just finished watching. You switched the chop via the tune?
Yes, that's mostly in the tune. I like to have less chop in drive with the stock converter, then more chop in park and neutral where it doesn't affect driveability.
@@unigroupengineering what was the stall of the stock converter?
Your videos are very informative, and a lot easier to listen to without the usual loud music and hype one typically is subjected to.
Thanks!
Stock converter from 1500 and by 2000 it feels well and truly engaged.
So. In my case. The smaller cam is good for towing and general driving. Commuting. Larger cam for racing down the strip. Thanks. Very informative.
seems to be that the stage 1 camshaft has the best powerband for what's done to the 6.4, since to really make the most of the other cams it needs better flow or higher revs. sort of what i figured, either way expect a healthy ~440whp with a cam only 6.4. not bad at all!
Great info and well explained
Thanks for tuning in Phil...👍
Good informative video. Can you please tell me are these the new HRT Camshafts ? Thanks Much
I see the same thing with 4.6 2v mustangs,the comp cam 262 cams make the best all around gains and beats the comp 270 and 278 cams on the vast majority of the dyno graph. The peak difference leans on the larger cams by maybe 5-10hp. Same situation..
I did the Stage 1 NSR Comp Cam MK 112 300 11 on a 2006 5.7 hemi that was pushing 324.6whp/364.1wtq with longtube headers with a dynotune. Haven't had it dynoed since the Cam install and new dynotune
I almost always pick the smaller one and ENJOY it so much
Great video. Wondering if you did a video like this with the 345 5.7 hemi and the different stage cams?
Hi Brian, only the 392.
What brand camshafts are they? Comp ? Texas?
Does stage 1 and 2 helps or doest help motor to be more reliable?
What kind of cam would you recommend for a 6.4 running a vortec at only5 or 6 psi? Trying to get more out of it without having to build the engine and upgrade the pistons. I figure a cam and bigger injectors will help.
Std cam will give good results. Expect approx 120hp gain with low boost and supercharger on an otherwise standard engine.
If looking for more, I'd go for a small cam and retain the phaser, for the best spread of power whilst keeping the revs under 6500rpm for reliability.
Vortechs make excellent top end power, as boost climbs with revs. Keep in mind you'll need a slightly smaller upper pulley to keep the same boost if running a cam.
It would be very interesting to see the difference in power between the new HRT 201-303-17 and the XFI 201-426-17 ? Also, when you performed these tests on the 3 Camshafts Did you use the VVT Camshaft Limiter or Lock?
The differences in my opinion are going to be small, hence you really need to test them in the same car/engine.
VVT was retained in all 3 and angles optimised for best performance in each case.
Stg3 was in the fully advanced position the longest, requiring higher exhaust centre lines, followed by stg2, then stg1 (as expected). All fitted with the VVT limiter.
Many thanks for this huge informations.
I dropped stage 1 in my 6.4 scat pack and i just added filter intake (afe) and also removed the convertor, all other parts are factory, my question is do i need headers (after market)? If yes, which headers do you recommend and size.
For Stage 1, you don't need headers. Stage 2, headers and new valve train. Stage 3, valve train, headers, ported heads, TB, ported manifold. Stage 4 is all out race car .
fantastic video you should do more youtube videos
This is amazing information, do you know how much this all costs between the cams? With tunes and parts and such?
I'm in Australia, where I'm guessing the pricing is going to be dearer. These cam packages start from 5500USD all up with new lifters, head gaskets/bolts and dyno tuning.
do you think the stage 1 HRT nsr comp cam 218/228 is a good cam for a stock 392? Anything else id need with it other than tuning the car?
Definitely a great choice of cam for an otherwise stock Hemi. You don't really need anything else other than tuning.
@@unigroupengineering Thank you I appreciate the response!
Great vid. Its comforting when this is explained so well. Comp 270 Stage 1 for my 392. Long tubes and diablo tune. Cant wait!
I'd go a different cam, that particular one is not great.
@@unigroupengineering don’t know what you’re talking about. Comp 270 cam is the best for the 392 hemis
@@davidtolbertiv6446 Test a few out, back to back, see what you think. ICL seems too late for my liking. You would want to go to 7000 as a minimum to make it work at its best.
@@unigroupengineering the Comp 270 cam is the best sounding and best for performance as well as tuning. That is just the facts. HHP tuned the vehicle and they even stated this. They are the best shop for hemis in america so what they say is fact. Comp 270 is the best cam. Period
I too have bought a Comp270 from HHP, but that was quite a while ago. Back then, it was the 'go to' cam for many. Now it wouldn't be my first choice.
So the stage 1 cam gain more hp?
So are all stage 1 cams from different manufacturers the same in performance levels? Is this something new I don’t recall having stage 1-2-3 cams for older engines like 340-440? Thanks
The "stage" name became popular because LS stuff, I always look at the duration, that is most important
Frp has a Tomahawk 2.0 cam with 111 LSA . For a street car this should be all one would need and make great power everywhere. I think 108-110 would be the best LSA for these cars with 108 preferred. A cam with 230-235@50 intake duration would be all you would ever need. You could run a single patteen on these cars as they have decent exhaust flow. Of course a cam with that much duration and that tight lss would require flycut or aftermarket pistons. The 6.4 with upgraded springs is more than capable of 7000+rpm which is where the 230+ cams will shine and the tight LSA would keep your bottom end. The idle would be radical and a good tuner mandatory.
I will be building my Hellcat next year. Most likely will spec a custom cam though the FRP offerings are getting pretty close. A cam with 230in 242exh and 108lsa would be very nice indeed. Boost in the 20-23lb range with my Kong ported 4.5 Whipple.💪 It will be 400+ci.
Im factory blower and 17lbs on pump gas now with a few gallons of e85 and some boostane for safety. I plan to run E85 when built and leaded e85 when i need to push the car harder
Hemi's do not work well with tight lobes, and generally anything that adds Overlap with restrictive street exhausts is going to result in a loss down low. Nobody who's familiar with the Gen 3 hemi is going to put a Single Pattern, Long Duration Cam with a tight lobes in it. It's all centered around keeping overlap to a minimum, because they don't respond well to it.Going from a 224* at .050" to 234*@.050 would require closing the intake valve 5* later (low-mid loss) and double the overlap from 5 to 10 (which with street exhaust's will result in more power lost). Which is why once you get to the 220-228 @ .050" Intake/230-238ish at .050" exhaust range and 112-114 Lobe sep, you see greatly diminishing returns on both the 5.7 and 6.1/6.4. 2 of the 3 Guys that have gone 10's N/A on 5.7 Hemis in trucks, guess what the cam specs were? 218/228 at .050" on a 112 LSA. Jay Greene's cams have even more split, 15* or more.
One last Caveat - FRP Ryan's Cams, even those that have tightish lobes, aren't a 111 LSA, they're a 111ICL. By advancing the cam timing and not the lobe, he gets the low-mid increase from the earlier intake valve close, but doesn't need to add in the duration and overlap that you'd get from moving just the intake lobe, which would cause the power loss experienced in this video. Check out SPDC's hemi cam testing - they tested a 108LSA, and a 112 matched it down low and made more in the midrange and up top as well. Notice how once they get to the high 21X range on the intake and high 22X range on the exhaust, there's really not much more gains. czcams.com/video/RxSQDvgqeAY/video.html
How does your stage 1 in the video compare to the mark82 frp cam or the hrt nsr cam for 6.4?
Stage 1 cam in the vid is the hrt nsr.
I recently had a dyno result of 444 hp on my rt scatpack. Any suggestions of which stage cam and brand that I should check for 30 more hp?
Did you watch the video?
Obviously no need for any more than stage 1 on the stock motor. One of the MAJOR issues is LSA. Usually the smaller cams have tighter LSA which makes more TQ and average HP. Just facts. Somehow in all our modern wisdom; we think that adding duration along with a widened LSA is the way to go. It's not! Run a tighter LSA and moderate duration. This will provide what the engine wants and not what you want. On a Hellcat you could grind a cam with factory numbers except for big tightening of the LSA and make more power everywhere. Most likely beating aftermarket wide LSA cams in average power. You could also keep your VVT while increasing power everywhere.
On a side note . You CAN get a lopey idle with the smaller can and tighter LSA
Very well said! 💯👍
Would a stage 1 cam on my 6.4 challenger make a good different is it worth it?
Most definitely! It will make more power and torque everywhere from 2000rpm.
It's not easy work getting any extra out of the 6.4, factory has done a fantastic job! Given us all the power possible and has left out nothing. Cam is one of the best power adders, if staying naturally aspirated. Only supercharger or turbo is going to make more power.
I'm lost, I just saw a video for a 392 stage 2 upgrade and it went from stock 433hp to stage 2 487hp. Why are your numbers low?
Hi Luis. Great point.
Very simple: Dynos read all different between different brands and types.
Hence I look for power gain before and after. Based on your figures, it's gone up about 10-15 percent. It's also about 10-15 percent gain in this vid compared to stock, on this dyno.
See this vid for stock vs modified on this dyno. czcams.com/video/GLhz1Cv3Rnc/video.html
Cheers, Evan.
The variable cam timing retards the cam as revs increase. Idk, but let's say it varies by 8 degrees. Would maybe start out with a 4 degree advance on the cam optimized for torque in the middle of the power band. And at half rpm or 3050, would be at zero degrees. Then drop a degree every 760 rpm increase. It's best to pick a cam that gives the best average horsepower from basically 1000 rpm to redline. And the flattest torque curve. A dialed in setup is what is needed. No one component will ever really improve and engine like the 6.4 without supporting changes. Best post I've seen thus far . Eliminating the non wrenching boy racers opinions is a refreshing thing. Noise and lope are not necessarily faster. Efficiency always is.
Appreciate your videos. Have you tested the Comp 270 XFI # 201-426-17 in a 392 6.4L ? Also, it would be a good comparison video to do the Comp XFI vs the Stage 1 HRT and Stage 2 HRT.
Hi. Stg2 cam in the vid was the 270, stg1 is the HRT.
hi great video
how about the TSP stage 2 cam 218/226 .582 lift in and ex, lobe 112?
That sounds good. Do you know the intake centreline on that? Sounds very similar to the stage1 in the vid.
TSP seems to have great looking specs on paper, I'd love to try some of their cams.
@@unigroupengineering hi, what was the baseline power for the stock 6.4?
On our dyno, 380-390hp would typically be the stock baseline.
I really need your help or advice please I just bought myself Jeep 2014 SRT with stage 3 cams and when ever I stop or park the car gerks I just had all 4 my oxygen sensors replaced yet still doing the same thing so I have gone and seen a mechanic and he tells me the only way to get rid of the gerk is to go stock cam I also had the the tuner try to solve this problem but nothing what can I do please help it’s very unpleasant when I come to a stop or try to park hence very annoying when stuck in traffic
Anthony, reach out to us on our FB page, Unigroup Engineering. Or email us on unigroup dot dyno at Gmail dot com.
Did you ever get it fixed was looking to put my jeep on stage 3 but now I’m debating maybe a stage 2 or even stage 1
This video I believe why it’s so important to use the same vehicle to perform each test: BACK-TO-BACK DYNO TEST: 6.4L Hemi Gets Intake, Headers, Camshaft!
We've done a video on the same vehicle back to back, has step by step mods that you might find useful.
It looks like the stage 3 could use some more flow from the heads
needs nitrous like it was designed to perform
What are the torque measurements on each of them?
It's been a while since I've seen it but I thought it was in the video, discussed for each case.
Hey I'm looking for my next upgrade on my 6.4L hemi (camshaft) I currently have;
Stainless Works LTH + Hi Flow Catted Midpipe
JLT CAI
Magnaflow xMod (3" performance exhaust)
180Thermostat
Ported Intake
Ported TB
Should I stick with Stage 1 or Stage 2? I'm looking at the best drivability since I daily my car. Thank you so much!
Also whats the exact model on the stage 1 camshaft?
I personally like the stage 1 since it works with stock springs and trans shift points.
@@Too-slow485 It the Compcams HRT.
@@unigroupengineering appreciate the response and im taking your advice! I went to two shops and they both told me the bigger the better. I was looking at compcams website the spec is 218/228? For stage 1?
@@unigroupengineering 218/228 or 216/222?
Is it right to say that the stage one camshaft is good for 50 more horsepower then the stock 392 Hemi camshaft
Yes, up to 50hp is a realistic expectation.
@@unigroupengineering awesome, thank you.
So basically in order to get the larger cam to work properly, you need to change intake and other engine parts
Yes. To make a larger cam work at it's best, you need more modifications than a stock engine. Larger cams work best with engines and mods that allow higher rpm. Stage 1 is a great fit if staying to 6500. For instance a stage 3 cam will want 7200rpm to perform it's best.
A lot of people give stage 1 a miss, thinking bigger stage must be better. I did too back in the day.
Imagine putting a stage 3 cam in and seeing these results.. 😮💨
Ok, I just want to confirm. You said the Stage 2 is the XFI 270 Cam. Because Comp Cams makes 2 different Stage 2 Camshafts that are not the XFI, they have two Stage 2 HRT Camshafts. So you actually didn’t test either of the Stage 2 HRT Camshafts if it was the XFI Camshaft, Correct ? Thanks Much
I confirm that the stg2 in the vid is not the HRT.
Sometimes a cam is all you need . Drive it like that for a month . For a daily you might find it works well
Who makes the stage one you use? Or is it your own?
Compcams, and they make a few different ones. I prefer the ones with approx 215deg@50.
@@unigroupengineering I see. I found one with 218/228 @.050, and one they call a Thumpr with 214/233 @.050. Which would be closest to what you used for stage one? And which one would you prefer? Thanks again.
@@NHLGUITARMAN Need a little more info to make a better recommendation. Cam intake and exhaust centrelines and lift for each?
@@unigroupengineering Stage 1 has 114 lobe separation, intake valve lift .571, exhaust valve lift .545. The Thumper has 113 lobe separation, intake valve lift .510, exhaust valve lift .505. Not sure if that's the info you needed. I'm leading towards the stage one instead of the "Thumper".
Yep, should go well. Keep as much phaser movement as you can with the limiter that you'll need to install. Would be keen to see your results compared to baseline run.
Put a lot of hashtags in the video description section to help people find you
Hashtags like Instagram?
From Canada...Just talk to various cam grinders to determine the valid choice...I have done a bunch of work on the gen 3, and have successfully upgraded these motors. I have a couple of "go to guys" that work with me on building some massive power gains.
Lol. A cam is a cam. “Custom Grind” cams are a joke.a cam with the same specs will make the same power. It’s not rocket science. It’s cool that you want to make yourself seem important tho.
very interesting thanks man
My pleasure...👍
How much rwhp would a 392 cam and headers put a stock 5.7 2009 challenger?
Hi Brad. I haven't tried out that combo. Maybe someone else might be able to chime in.
@@unigroupengineering problem is I live in California and I was told it won't pass smog with both of those items in the car
@@bradfordmcdermott2063 If you have good catalytic converters, I think you're going to be ok.
@@unigroupengineering i have mid muffler delete is all ive done so far
@@bradfordmcdermott2063 I'm surprised you can even get away with that in Cali. My advice is move out of California. They won't let you do literally anything from what I've heard.
Something is wrong here...I've seen dyno runs making more or the same power then that on a stock 392... so then whats the need for a cam exchange just saying...
fun fact, Hellcat lifters are identical to the 6.4 and 5.7 hemi.
true
better upgrade is a hellcat oil pump
I have stage 3 hemi 6.1 Chrysler
Stages are just arbitrary designation made by the part maker/seller.
The stock bottom end can handle the the higher rpm range with upgraded valve train. The 6.4’s do not have a long enough stroke to cause issues.
Sorry, but the video is a waste if you are not maxing the cams with their proper rpm range: also, having the cam specs will help a lot as well. Depending on how big the stage 3 is you could benefit from a shorter runner intake with a stall.
Moreover, the video was done well.
Yeah stock 6.4 should be able to rev at least 7000+, Stage 1 is 218/228, stage 2 is 220/230, stage 3 is 224/234 IIRC, with the stage 2 and 3 having higher lift, but less LSA
Lmfao! There’s no such thing as “Stage cams”. Lift, duration, icl and LSA are specs. Not stages. As far as RPM, that has to do with your valvetrain. You can’t just slap a bunch of $hit together out of a catalog.
@@Cultofpersonality09129. Agreed, that’s why we specs and blue printed my 394CI 6.4L stroker. Even had 5degrees of advance added to the cam to help with torque production in my heavy CrewCab💪🏻.
I think it’s mostly the newer car guys whom go by specs. Most people don’t understand specs like we do.
@@captainboose8788. Still running a 6.4L intake on my stroker with a 233/246 112LSA cam, and revving to 6,600rpm because of 5degrees advance. Went with this on my combo because I’m running a no prep 4X4 setup for the street, extra torque goes a long ways. However, MMX did say I am maxing out the 6.4L intake.
A lot of the 5.7L SBE trucks are revving to the 7k+ range with the bigger cams.
None of these seem to be worth the trouble. I am pulling 426HP and 425 lb-ft stock with a stock Chrysler 5.7 exhaust on my 6.4. Tiny gains for the cams
Cap the brand new 5.7's only make 370 to the crank stock. You pulled those numbers out of your ass, along with your husband's semen.
I almost always pick the smaller one and ENJOY it so much
Stage 1 is better.