When Did Dooku Leave the Jedi Order?
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- čas přidán 29. 10. 2022
- When did Dooku leave the Jedi Order? Does Tales of the Jedi tell a different story from what we heard in Dooku: Jedi Lost or read in Padawan? I think it all still works together fine. Here is my explanation.
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I think this is also bolstered by the fact that Dooku had to use Syfo-Dyas's codes to delete Kamino, because he no longer had clearance codes since he already left
@not a human Except no Jedi was aware Kamino was deleted until Obi-Wan discovered it was, and they weren't able to find out that it was Sifo-Dyas who deleted it. So they probably can't see he deleted the file.
@not a human No, there was a whole arc about a locked file ABOUT Syfo-Dias that needed Valorum’s approval.
Yes this is a great point. When the Jedi discovered Kamino had been erased, they still didn't know by who - so that means no record gets made of deletions. And Dooku would have known that. So the motivation for using Sifo-Dyas' access codes to delete Kamino can NOT have been to cover his tracks. The ONLY explanation for why he would have to use Sifo-Dyas' clearance is if he no longer had clearance, because he was no longer in the Jedi Order. At first I thought we were just 'explaining away' a continuity issue, but your point has made me firmly believe that this episode of Tales was written with knowledge and intent to show Dooku as no longer being in the order, but still trusted to walk about the temple.
I do not think that had Dooku left the order fully at that point he would be allowed into the archives. Can a non-Jedi enter the archives? He went into the file room as Dooku but used Syfo Dyas' code. My thinking is he was still considered a Jedi for awhile while he was working with Palpatine. I hope they do a short about the first meeting between Dooku and Palpatine.
@@scsmith4604 nop, he indeed left the order, but he was so respected that they let him having his lightsaber and visiting the temple whenever he wanted to
The best evidence for me that Dooku had already left the order in the short is that he tells Qui Gon that he'd like to meet Obi Wan someday. It seems really odd that Qui Gon would have had a Padawan for at least 9 years (probably longer) and he'd never met the kid a single time unless he was at the temple very, very rarely because he'd already left the Order. In fact, when I was watching the short I was like, "How has he *not* met him yet?" And then I remembered he'd been gone since before Obi Wan was 16 and I was like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense."
Exactly.
As someone who hasn’t read a lot of the supplemental material, I saw it as Dooku acting as a double agent for a time. He wanted to leave the Jedi and could see their faults, but was hesitant about fully joining Sidious and the Dark Side. Then after the death of Qui-Gon and murder of Yaddle the decision was made. Kind of how Anakin’s point of no return was the murder of Windu.
Was so great to finally see this piece of Dooku's story brought to the visual medium, and it really helps that all three Dooku shorts have been done so well. They elevated my appreciation for Dooku to new heights and have changed my view of him for the entirety of TCW and Eps 2-3.
In my mind, they sort of implied that Dooku wasn't a jedi at that time. Jocasta simply calls him "Dooku" instead of master Dooku, and refers to his "active imagination" in the past tense. Also, Dooku hasn't been at the jedi temple often enough to have met Obi-Wan. These could easily be explained even if he was a jedi, but I think the dialogue fits more naturally with him not being a jedi.
Yaddle did call him "Master Dooku", but "Age of Republic" also had a Jedi calling him "Master Dooku" after he left the Jedi Order, showing that other Jedi still call him "Master Dooku", likely out of respect or formality.
@@imjashingyou3461 when does she call him "master Dooku"? The only point in the episode I can find is when she just says "as did you, Dooku". Maybe you need to rewatch the episode?
@@jackhummer8344 Yes, they can because they still had big respect for him.
@@imjashingyou3461 I've watched it again; she doesn't greet Dooku. What are you watching? Is there some difference in another language? Or do you have a time stamp I can go to?
I’m happy these shorts allowed us to get a glimpse of the “Heisenberg” effect.
The moment when Dooku truly embraced his role as Darth Tyranus.
Of course, you could argue his true birth as a Sith Lord was when he chose to betray his friend Syfo Dyas off screen.
None the less, these shorts gave me a good sense as to why he fell to the Dark Side.
I mean Dooku says in the fourth episode he has never meet Obi-Wan yet. If he was still a Jedi of the order i don't see how that would not have happened. So they don't retcon anything, it is just that taking the time to make clear he was just visiting was not necessary to that story.
Mmmm........yeah, this makes sense. I haven't listened to Jedi Lost or read Padawan, but from what's presented in this video, that all makes sense. He departs due to ideological conflicts, but remains in good standing thanks to his service to the Order. He meets Sidious and deems working with him a necessary evil to cleanse the Republic of its corrupt individuals. When Maul kills Qui-Gon, it seems like he's about to get the balls to stand up and leave Sidious (possibly even take him down), but Yaddle's intervention seals his fate because (in his eyes) he's in too deep to go back to the life he once had.
Side note: I love how Yaddle does everything she can to _convince_ Dooku to turn away from Sidious' path of evil. She doesn't order him, she doesn't use The Force to dominate his actions, she even _agrees_ that the counsel made a bad call by not taking Qui-Gon seriously. This is the most I've _ever_ seen her do, and it makes me want to see more of her adventures (High Republic?).
If you want to learn more about Yaddle, I recommend reading the story "Yaddle: The One Below" from Star Wars: Tales #5, the "Jedi Council: Acts Of War" comic miniseries, issues 13-16 of the "Star Wars: Republic" comics, and the novels "Cloak Of Deception" and "Jedi Quest: The Shadow Trap".
They're all from Legends continuity, but they're the only ones where Yaddle has a more significant role. She has practically nothing going for her in the current Canon aside from small appearances in The High Republic, and 1 episode from Tales Of The Jedi.
It makes sense that he left, because he said to Qui-Gon that he would like to meet Obi-Wan some day. I think that it wouldn't be possible for those two not to meet if he was still a Jedi.
Think helps in episode 2 there were those that think Dooku wouldn’t do anything wrong. Like when Mace said he couldn’t assassinate someone.
When you work at a library and your former co-worker still stops by at least once a week to talk to you and everyone else.
Personally I prefer the legends version of his backstory where he leaves after Qui Gon’s death, but I liked the way this was presented.
The timeline with Sifo Dyas only could've worked if it all happened before the Phantom Menace though. That was one thing I always found to be confusing in Legends until Dave Filoni explained the timeline better in the Clone Wars.
The Dooku eps were amazing, great dark tone set by the visuals and soundtrack. Also answer a lot of little questions like who deleted Kamino, and add cool aspects like Qui-Gon spoke to Dooku just before we see him in the council chamber in TPM.
My biggest turnover from it is that Dooku was too friendly with everyone in the Order in the short. Considering, he was literally shittalking the Order left and right after leaving (according to various sources), but then allowed to enter the Temple freely? That doesn't make sense.
Also, when did that 2nd short take place? Mace looks closer to age he was in TPM, Dooku is also quite old.
I’d say during or before 42 BBY, the year that Dooku left the Jedi Order to become Count of Serenno. Mace would have been 30 then and should have already completed Depa Billaba’s training since she herself is a member of the Jedi Council in the novel “Master and Apprentice” (which takes place in 40 or 39 BBY).
Until we get an official source, I’ve dated the episode in my head canon as taking place in 44 BBY, since in legends that’s when Mace is granted a seat on the High Council and as far as I know in legends it doesn’t state who he replaced. It’s not ideal and not everyone likes to look to legends but I use it to fill in gaps until canon provides answers.
In fact this evening I have literally compiled a list of events in relation to Dooku using both canon and legends timelines on Wookieepedia. I have narrowed the first Dooku and Qui-Gon episode as taking place in between 68 BBY (when he becomes a Padawan in canon) and 59 BBY (when he takes on Xanatos as a Padawan in legends). I would personally establish it closer to the latter since Qui-Gon appears to be in his late teens in the episode.
Master and Apprentice book also implies that he was plotting something well before Phantom Menace.
This does line up with Dooku's early allegiance with the sith in older stories. Dooku had been a double agent for Sidious fir a few years, and at the time, he believed that he and Sidious' master Darth Plagueis had the best interests of the people of the galaxy. It likely was after Qui-Gon's death that he began to truly embrace the Sith Code, and sought to overthrow Sidious and become leader of their Sith Empire.
This would explain why he hadn't met obi wan. He's only there on occasion
This was so helpful. Thank you.
Dooku does not have his own password to enter the archive. He has to sneak in, I guess that explains everything.
Dooku: "I've been warning them about the coming darkness for years."
Honestly, the only problem I had with this, is that Dooku still looked too young for Episode 1....
Yeah, he's meant to be 70 here and no grey hair. But Obi-Wan was completely white at age 57. I get the harsh suns of Tatooine aged him faster, but Dooku also lived a pretty hard life up to that point what with going on mission and stuff. It's just odd.
People age at different rates even in real life. I’m completely grey at 40-mumblemumble, but my best friend’s MIL has almost none at 95. Of course, that doesn’t explain the differences in appearance between animation and live action for the same time period… but his chin length is also different. I think it’s just a stylistic choice.
@@sebastianoleary2743 His hair was greyer in the third short than in the first two.
The way I see it, Dooku started greying when he embraced the dark side more fully as Darth Tyranus, plus the stress of creating a Separatist movement among his master’s other plans are bound to make anybody go completely grey in less than a decade
@@classic_jam yes and the third short would still be ten years before episode 2 as well. Plenty of time for his hair to get greyer
I think Douku putting in Sifo-Dyas code answered and eluded to many answers. One in particular that maybe the reason why he deleted it using sifo code is not only to create a paper trail to frame him, but also Doukus password could had been disabled being gone from the order…. I mean we did see him sneak into the database.
There were a few mistakes or; "inconsistencies," I noticed, for example the scene in which a young Kanan (Caleb Dume,) is shown watching, (and clearly admiring,) Ahsoka's training with the remote droids, obviously inconsistent because in "Rebels" we're led to believe the characters had never encountered one another before, before Ahsoka officially introduces herself to the Ghost crew descending the ladder as; "Fulcrum."
There were a couple more, of course nothing really significant. (Significant enough to remember lol for me to add it in here, anyway.) (apparently.) ✌️
I mean there’s nothing to say that Kanan didn’t slightly remember seeing her in the Jedi temple when I was a little padawan. Doesn’t matter what you may think when watching the episode. Dooku’s episodes didn’t have inconsistencies or mistakes at least. Though it’s clear episode 6 had many.
Yeah i'm good with the head cannon that Kanan just doesn't know Ahsoka is the same Togruta as the one from "Tales." There's a LOT of padawans in clone wars time period, it makes sense that Kanan wouldn't remember a quick moment like that or even think that she's the same Togruta
We still don't really know much about how the Order during this time treats those who choose to leave it. He could have been doing some kind of, Wayseeker type thing, taking him "out of the order" but still with access to the temple, etc. Jocasta refers to Qui-Gon as "your apprentice" (and Qui-Gon still calls him "Master") so there's an indication of some kind of formal relationship still, though it could just be a friendly ways to refer. But definitely seems like he's been gone since he hasn't met Obi-Wan.
Honestly, they could've worked in one little line pointing towards Dooku having left the service of the order (he still holds rank, right?) before the episode.
i agree. dave nailed it on this one. good observation and explanation
I havent seen the new jedi show yet. Lol getting caught up on Andor and I am looking forward to seeing this new show.
Love the channel and thank you 🤘👍
Very cool!! 😄👍🏻👍🏻
According to the actual canon, years before The Phantom Menace. According to Dave, after The Phantom Menace.
Dooku's treatment in the temple seems reminiscent of his Age of republic comic story. That Jedi has no idea Dooku fell to evil.
Something that does indicate that he was not part of the Jedi Order anymore what's the fact that he had not met Obi-Wan. By that time Qui-Gon had undoubtedly been mentoring Obi-Wan for many years. We saw Anakin and Obi-Wan working together quite often even after Anakin became a Jedi. Obi-Wan knew Asoka. Dooku never having met Obi-Wan implied that he had not been around the temple all that often.
I just remembered that Dooku, specifically says to Yaddle during their duel when she is thinking about fleeing. "Heading back to your Council?" not the council, but your council.
It’s the type of story that opens new questions for new stories; but given how they handled Ahsoka’s book version I’m less inclined to think they cared about “Jedi Lost”
Never read the books but seeing alot of complaints about this. Is the book that good? Will give it a read if so
To me the biggest tell was that everyone but Dooku knew Qui-Gon Jinn had faced a Sith Lord
Thank you for this video.
I hope you tackle the Ahsoka details in a video. I personally don’t think Tales contradicted much, but I’m always curious about your headcanons.
I mean it changed a lot of stuff from the book. Only the big main stuff is the same.
@@chewy99. I just took it as being a completely different village. You never get the names of the villagers and it makes sense that Ahsoka would go by Ashla multiple times
Hey Alex, I'm curious to know if you believe Dooku was being honest when he told Anakin and Obi-Wan that Sifo-Dyas approached him for help with the cloning project. I think it's a good explanation for how Dooku (and Palpatine by extension) learned about the project before ultimately deciding to kill Sifo-Dyas and take it over. I still don't buy that Dooku was able to pose as Sifo-Dyas, though. I think the Kaminoan leadership looked the other way because they wanted the deal to go through. I'd also like to hear your thoughts about Obi-Wan discovering the army. Did Palpatine and Jango deliberately leave Obi-Wan a trail to Kamino, or did Obi-Wan discover the clones earlier than Palpatine intended?
I absolutely loved the series. I could have certainly loved it if it were longer and had more episodes. But wow, great stories and epic animation.
In the sith Lord dooku had already left the order and returned to cerranno. Jacasta said Jin had an active imagination just like you did dooku. Did. Past tense. Then dooku told Jin he wouldn't be there to protect him. He was only visiting the temple that time and after duel of the fates
Schrödinger's retcon
It would also explain why he clearly kept his distance from Kenobi, as it is mentioned that he has yet to meet him. A reason Qui Gon could be hesitant to introduce them is that Dooku has left the order and he doesn't want his padawan to follow that path. Hanging out with a fallen jedi like something Qui Gon would do (as he showed time and again that traditions were not important to him and he was uninterested in playing Jedi politics), but also something that he wouldn't want his padawan to do to protect their future. Dooku would have definitely respected such a decision.
I think we will see Dooku bow to Sidious for the very first time in a sequel series "Tales of The Sith" where half gives us 3 stories about palp.
Schrodinger's Jedi. I love it!
It's a shame that by the time Yaddle finds out about Dookus fall, he seems to have already gone too far. His ideology after the first 2 eps makes sense - the Jedi are basically helping oppressors - so his fall makes sense, with Qui-Gons death the final straw, but as soon as he does stuff for Sidious it seems hes completely dropped into Evil. Could've been a great grey Jedi
Dooku left the Order when Qui Gon died, not 10 years prior. Infact, in a deleted scene of AOTC Jocasta tells Kenobi that when Dooku left he disappeared for 10 years and then showed up again. So he left when Qui Gon died..
I think you gave the TOTJ team too little credit. In fact I think some of the choices in how Dooku was portrayed deliberately showed that he was no longer part of the order. The line about never meeting Obi-Wan would make no sense if he was still a Jedi. It was clear he was only visiting.
I think they did make a conscious attempt to try to accomodate Dooku: Jedi Lost, and the only reason they didn't do the same for Ahsoka was because the story of that book is based on Dave's drafts, and Dave probably thought it fine if he somewhat sidelined it
I have always said you cannot have retcon by implication. Something implied by one story does not contradict something explicitly stated by a previous story. Especially when there are multiple explanations for the event that implies a contradiction.
I also do not believe that statements by characters retcons events we have actually seen. People lie, they misremember, they pass on stories they have heard from others, they are fallible.
I like the Doku shorts, but I hate that they made Another villan who compares to the worst human beings to ever live(if you can call them human)have a sympathetic back story. It's OK if 1 or 2 Non-Pure-Evil antagonists have a sympathetic back story, BUT NOTHING EXCUSES MURDER AND GENECIED BLOWING UP AN ENTIRE INOCENT PLANET AS AN ENTERAGATION METHOD!!!
I like your thoughts on this.
Any decent fan fics/theory's that the Emperor used Yaddles body towards future cloning attempts?
Cool shirt! Where’d you get it??
Was Dooku ever a member of the Jedi Council? If so does anyone know when and for how long he served?
I’m sure in legends he wasn’t but canon he was. Now with Tales of the Jedi out it feels like he wasn’t a member (or at least he hasn’t been for quite some time) based on his conversations with Mace Windu.
The way Dooku refers to Mace as “Master Jedi” hints at the same bitterness Anakin has towards Mace years later for denying him the rank of Master.
Dooku is an awesome character
It’s also telling that he hadn’t met Obi-Wan after all that time. If he was a Jedi, surely he’d have met him
When I first watched attack of the clones I thought Dooku was just being snarky and sarcastic when he said that he would try his best to get Obi Wan freed from his captivity, but after seeing how he was with Yaddle and how he acted in this series? I now believe that Dooku at least partially did have every intention of letting Obi Wan free
My question is did the jedi know he killed yaddle?
Dooku sure didn't age well in the 15 years between this and the Clone Wars. 😅
Neither did Obi-Wan between the PT and OT, nor Luke between the OT and ST!
most people don't seem to age well in star wars
That’s what the dark side will do to you 😂
In these shorts he always looks sad. In the clone wars he always looks angry.
@@StuartLugsden Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.
It makes sense to me 👍
Dooku having already left also explains why he has never met Obi-wan before.
I knew they wouldn't retcon it. None of the shorts seemed to fit in his story if anything fill in some gaps
Yay dooku!
Schrödinger's Dooku
Schrodinger's Dooku
...emotionally...or physically...?
Just because you're not in the Order, doesn't mean you can't keep your Jedi Library Card
Feels kind of disjointed considering what happens in the Dooku book. I liked the episodes with Dooku though.
It’s not really a retcon more of showing what I’m the books said is true it you pay attention
I think the real controversy is was dooku dying his hair when he was in the jedi order bc their is no w as the would have gone completely white beard and hair that fast between episode 1 to 2. Lol
I get that Dooku was respected enough to be allowed to visit the temple...but to be allowed into the Archives?! That's just stupid. I don't usually like retcons but in this case, I think it would have made more sense for Dooku to use Sifo-Dyas' card to cover his tracks rather than him simply needing access. The Jedi never figuring out who's card made the deletions doesn't matter. Still more logical than Dooku being allowed to be inside the archives.
An inconsistent Star Wars timeline makes far more sense to me than current world events so I’m good…
The way I see it, Dooku’s decision to leave the Jedi Order in 42 BBY (as established in “The Star Wars Book”) May have been something that only the Jedi Council were officially aware of. Or perhaps his departure was temporary, returning after a short leave of absence to try and change the Republic from within, failing to stem the tide of corruption and coming into the service of Darth Sidious in those years. His status as a Jedi Master would give Palpatine the means of having an inside man as it were. Being present at the temple also means it’s more likely Sifo-Dyas would confide in him about his visions of a coming war and his plan to have an army of clones grown for the Republic. Dooku orders the Pyke Syndicate to murder Sifo-Dyas and he uses his dead friend’s credientials (who was still alive as far as the council is concerned) to erase Kamino from the Jedi Archives. It is then Dooku learns that Qui-Gon has encountered Darth Maul on Tatooine.
Sometime passes in between this scene and Dooku learning of Qui-Gon’s death so what he was doing then would be pure speculation. He learns of Jinn’s death and is saddened by this news but he understands he is too far interwoven into Sidious’ web to turn back. He kills Yaddle, likely then given the title Darth Tyranus and begins his search for the Prime Clone while his master attends to matters on Naboo.
The Jedi council return and Dooku officially resigns from the Jedi Order, likely blaming the death of Qui-Gon Jinn and the Council’s failure to act as his reason.
As somebody who loves the Darth Plagueis novel I can see elements of that story still being relevant despite it status as a legends story, albeit some tweaking of events that involve Dooku and Palpatine meeting in public. In fact it is probably only the final scene between them in the novel that needs to be altered or removed entirely.
Canon is canon but unless something comes along to contradict I will use legends stories to help fill in the gaps.
Tl;dr: Dooku took a short leave of absence (42 BBY) but returned after some time to try and do some good but ultimately his attempts were in vain and so he allied himself with Darth Sidious prior to The Phantom Menace, officially leaving the Jedi Order after the events of the Tales of the Jedi episode “The Sith Lord”
He is still in his Jedi robes🤔
I think if he was still a jedi he would have met obi wan earlier
It's quite clear that Dooku is no longer a Jedi. If he were a Jedi he would have certainly met obi wan
This is pretty serendipitous for how Dooku left the order in Legends. In the EU, Dooku left after Qui-gon's death, feeling disillusioned with the Jedi Order to become the Count of Sereno. In Canon, he left well before then but I have this head canon where Legends is a retelling of canon, but with some of the details fudged along the way.
I do like the new canon that he left a while back because of legitimate political differences, but it was Qui-Gon's death that led him to FULL commitment to the dark side
As someone who reads every book and comic and has given so much time (let alone money) to star wars, its getting really bothersome and annoying how much it feels like Dave Filoni doesnt care about other mediums. No, maybe they arent technically retcons, but they border on changes. It always annoyed me the way Legends seemed to do the same thing and I had a ton of hope the new canon under Disney would change. Dont get me wrong, I love Dave Filoni, but I wish hed give more credit to the great stories already written. Its starting to feel like hes becoming Ryan Johnson. "Its my story, Ill write it how I want it to be".
Q&A: For all the retcon talk, can’t we just use the phrase, “from a certain point of view” and move on (when they aren’t really hard retcons but simple vague ones where you could argue they are but definitively aren’t)?
Filoni
Star Wars Midas 🪙
I think you've given this more thought than Disney has.
Count Dooku lefted the Jedi Order 10 years before the Phantom Menace because he grew disillusioned with the Jedi Order. It's unknown what he did in the last 10 years before Qui-Gon Jinn's Death but we know that he killed Sifo-Dyas and stole his ideas for the creation of the Clone Army for the Galactic Republic. He became Darth Sidious apprentice after Darth Maul defeat by the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi, he was looking for a strong Warrior who is capable to kill Jedi to be worthy of the Clone Template, if they succeeded dealing with the mysterious Cult known as the Bando Gora and their leader a Dark Jedi named Komari Vosa, one of Count Dooku apprentice and Jedi who fought with win against the True Mandalorians.
There are a lot of Rectons that Dave Filoni and Disney have pulled, Filoni made Dooku still a Jedi during the events of the Phantom Menace and became Sidious Apprentice by killing Yaddle. Disney made Dooku choose Jango Fett without a task to see that he is a strong Warrior to see he's worthy to be a Clone Template.
In the Expanded Universe Sidious didn't support an idea of Sifo-Dyas idea of creating a Clone Army, but then he realized how wrong he was, when Count Dooku founded Jango Fett an Ex-Mandalorian who is capable of killing Jedi. It makes no sense in the Disney Version Darth Sidious would actually agree of using Sifo-Dyas into creating a Clone Army who's idea came from a Jedi unless he becomes surprised by it.
They pretty ruined dooku by showing he was basically complicit in qui gons death when it was it originally implicated that he left cause of qui gons death. Turns dooku into way less respectable of a character
i think he left the order when he was fed up with it ngl
The Jedi weren't like this chill with dooku when Ashoka left the order so that's a no from me
Theres a bit of a difference between 'listen ive had enough of the arrguments, im taking some time out to deal with family!' and 'you falsely accused me of murder, broke my trust and then expect a do over?'
They expected Dooku would chill and come back thats why they kept the door open for him, the Ahsoka situation was a lot more embarassing for the council.
@@voiceofraisin3778 aw heck u right