Flying with Force Trim | Understanding trim in the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior for DCS World
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- čas přidán 8. 06. 2024
- Force trim can be a great asset... or a pain in the rear. This should help you figure out what works best for you.
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Hardware:
intel core i9-13900k, 64GM RAM, Zotac 4090 GPU
Joystick: VKB Gunfighter III with 20cm extension
Pedals: Virpil ACE
Throttle: Virpil Mongoose 3 - Hry
Having spent a few hours learning to trim the thing after not touching DCS in half a decade, I can confirm this is another useful multi hour time saving video. I genuinely hope you realize that you are helping push sales for this module in a major way, and are having a massive effect on how people positively view it and interact with it. I personally wouldn't have grabbed the module without having the quick reference videos you've put out, and ended up flying it yesterday until I ran out of fuel twice. Thanks man, you are literally helping get people into/back into DCS.
Amen brother
I went fade in before it was cool. It's sooooo much smoother, wonder why ED didn't think of it? lol. Dude you are cranking out the vids on this awesome bird thank you, Polychop have stepped up the helo bar in DCS something fierce.
It’s probably the last one for a while.
@@CasmoTV Well it is very much appreciated, I'm a visual learner....I read faster than my brain can comprehend lol.
@@CasmoTV….so no Countermeasures?!
@@NoPro2289 do you really need a video on “this is the flare… thanks for watching”
@@CasmoTV 😂 no, not really. Was just curious why there is a „C“ with a number next to it on the CMWS panel due to the fact that this bird hasn’t got chaffs…..at least to my knowledge because the manual doesn’t state anything about it.
"And then we explode." why was this so funny to me
Instant is the way forward with FFB, press and hold force release, move stick to where you want it and release, works a treat. Absolutely fabulous implementation of force trim.
I usually move the stick to the place i want it based on what I'm doing. Then click the force trim. Doing small corrections click force trim.
I've become pretty comfortable flying with instant trim, though it sometimes does cause a few issues. But, at least with the Apache and Russian birds I've become comfortable enough with the trim and then almost instant release of the controls to a neutral position. I dream of a day when I can get a nice FFB base, but until those become cheaper and more readily available, I'll have to keep slumming it.
It's amazing how setting up just one button can make your game playable. For me it was the scroll wheel on the MMS. Had to slow it way down to make adjustments accurate. Now the module is a pure joy.
Admittedly, I've only flown the thing for an hour so far, but what's trim? I didn't even know I needed it lol🤣
Using Virpil MongoosT-50 CM3 base (dead stick configuration) and grip 🤷♂
EDIT: just scrolled through some of the earlier comments and saw this mentioned by @C6v1999.
Like you said in the video, it's all hardware dependent. Great job again with the video, thanks!
Watched a few videos on the Rhino FFB stick! I hadn't really paid much attention to it (not even sure if I heard of it). That said, it looks incredible in action! I'm in.....now the 1 to 2 year wait begins 😬😅
Thanks so much keep the OH-58D videos coming you are the best 😊
Got a FFB Rhino.
Gotta say, I’m liking playing it with force trim turned off like you said. I only flew the first time with it on, shut it off and won’t ever go back. The easy, natural control and stable helicopter makes it like an extension of yourself in a way I’ve never felt in other modules.
Great video describing trim and helicopters. A while ago, in order to avoid trim and have finer control, I decided to purchase a dedicated cyclic setup for only helicopters. I use a Virpil MongoosT-50 CM3 Base with the 200mm extension in “dead stick” (disengaged cam) configuration so it moves freely. The axis clutch dampers are adjusted to just hold position enough to stop gravity from moving the stick. As a result, I have no more need for force trim and more precise movements due to the extension.
THIS^^^
Best setup I've ever used so far for helicopters in DCS and X-plane! The Virpil collective with a counterweight is sweet as well 😃
Can't wait to step up to FFB Rhino when mine is ready!
I don't have this and have no need for this video, but that cover photo is perfection. Chef's kiss
I've used instant trim on helicopters in sims for years and am very used to it. I saw the "fade in/out" option in the trim options and didn't bother messing with it since I wasn't familiar with what it meant. Glad I saw your explanation on it, definitely going to try it now. Seems like instant trim but better, letting you get smoother transitions.
The primary reason that KW pilots do not fly with force trim on all the time is because you have to use your thumb on the Force Trim Interrupt switch on the cyclic to momentarily disengage the force trim. In combat (or training) that same thumb is used to activate the Weapon's Fire Switch. So, when you suddenly get engaged by the enemy, you may need to evade incoming fire and/or immediately employ weapons on target. It's hard to hit both switches simultaneously, as OH-58D pilots were only issued one thumb per hand.
(Reposting this from my answer to a question below. Seemed worthy of an its own comment).
As a force feedback stick user. I love force feedback in helicopters.
Superb video mate!
A word of advice for the Instant and Fade In/Fade Out trim methods. Fly the helicopter into trim while holding the Trim Release button. When you get to where you want it release the Trim Release button and the controls won't over deflect. Central Position is for the birds.
You should try FFB Rhino base, it is great
I’m on the list
@@CasmoTV you can try older (and much cheaper ) FFB sticks meanwhile, like the Microsoft sidewinder force feedback 2, the saitek cyborg evo force feedback, the Logitech force 3d pro, and other old FFB sticks. I use the Microsoft one and it's amazing, the only problem is the lack of buttons, so you may need a throttle with a lot of buttons to compensate that
@@CasmoTV Which is endless...
From the old sticks, the MS Sidewinder FFB2 is by far the best. Still using it. But the Rhino would be such a massive leap anyway.
😮 i need that fade in fade out for the AH64 ...in my opinion this is the most natural movement
With a Force Feedback Stick, I think I am using Instant Trim… I have not really played around with the trim yet.
Instant is what I've been rocking for ages since that's the Blackshark's default. I'm used to it and have been able to fly and make it look smooth. I'm glad that the Kiowa has an equivalent. This is what I've been having problems with the Apache as it's not completely equivalent to instant. Some nuances along the well.
The thumbnail is hilarious! 😂
Fade in/out trim needs to be done for the AH64, its the best of both worlds ! thanks for the comprehensive video !
Thanks for the visuals and explanation on this. Was really confused.
uh oh..the thumbnails are getting good.
I use instant, and i am already used to how it reacts , so in my opinion is a matter of getting used to
I was too. Try the fade. It mo betta
I’m
Like you casmo. No trim for me using a 45 cm elbow extension with wet noodle springs. After years of Huey it naturally sets in aft left at the center that it does hold, once off that it flops over. So hands on full time for me, this module has been a joy to lift off and fly.
Flying with the TM T16000 with Throttle. No pedals due to space constraints. The trim is a must have as the T16000 has a twist grip for rudder/yaw. Trying to hold that constant twist becomes a pain pretty quick. Trim button, done. Thanks for the expanded explanations. I had adjusted to instant and hadn't tried Fade yet. May have to do that. :)
So... central trim is why my ka50 cyclic is not responding sometimes, good to know. Thanks Casmo!
Exactly what I was looking for... Your the Best M8. Thanks again...
FFB is the way lol. You can go cheap or expensive, just means you can keep that FT switch off and fly her seamlessly
Very useful video. As allways Thank you Casmo
That thumbnail 😘👌
OMG how about the air bags that deploy on hard ground impact!!! Thats funny as shit
Thanks Casmo....good stuff
in ED helicopters instant trim is a bit different. It gives you ~1,5 second after button press before moving neutral position to new place
much appreciated Casmo! That helped :)
Hey Casmo, Great series on the Kiowa! I’ll be jumping in as soon as I finish them all! Thanks for all your work for us and DCS. Quick question: I fly the Huey a lot and am very happy with its “ default” trim setting. Which Kiowa setting is that the closest to? Many Thanks!
Have you had a chance to look at the AI Pilot options yet Casmo?
Apologies, found your video about said topic.
So is anyone else having a problem when loaded with 4 hellfires? The aircraft seems to roll very aggressively. I've turned down the y axis saturation to 60 and it's still very aggressive. I know the missles have some weight and are out of centerline but it seems like a lot.
Not had that issue something is wrong in your end. Idk what tho.
@CasmoTV ok yeah I've seen a few others have the same thing but not sure what's causing it
Thank you
I've been playing Microsoft Flight simulator a lot more recently and I really like their solution to trim on helicopters- there's essentially a second set of trim controls that are just much more aggressive with the cyclic and it just works pretty well for setting up a cruise on a heavily sprung stick. But I've never used it in really dynamic flight conditions and FS's helicopter simulation is not the best to begin with so the fade in/fade out trim probably looks the best option.
Would you reccommend having the control input window open as a matter of routine on DCS to cross reference what the stick's actually doing in the sim?
(Note: I don't have Kiowa) I used central trim style on helos to avoid the "instant" jump, but way too often I forgot to center one axis and it didn't work. I'm not sure now if it also counts pedals to the mix of "center" when you set the pedals to be trimmed as well... In the end I rather flew with instant without getting stuck here and there with the central trim. But I like that fade-in/out idea a lot. I believe there is some short time on "instant" in other DCS helos, but I'm not sure how unified this is across the board. Central sounds fine, but can get messy if one forgets to release all the axis. Of course, if it works for some, good for them. It is there, so we have options. 🙂
"Fade in" for the win!
Damn, you're one steely eyed content creator!
🙂👍
i use the instant, its like the Huey and what I'm used to.
I am using a „dead stick“. Means I removed springs from my Virpil TM3 base and tightened the clutches a little bit. So the stick stays always in position where I leave it.
I wonder if in this case the trim itself has any additional benefit? Does the SCAS (also in the Apache) calculate or manage the FMC different when I activate the trimmer?
My understanding of the real trim is that you press the button in order to move the cyclic. As soon as you release the trim button the cyclic keeps position. This is what a Forcefeedback stick simulates too, right?
But having a dead stick that does quite the same thing, is there any benefit in using the trim button?
Is there a mode where you can hold the button while flying around and then release the button at the same time (or just before) you let go of the stick? Like a “ignore my stick movement unless I press the button” mode? It would need to be learned behavior and not everyone has a free button/finger but I’m mostly just curious.
Not really
I am using the Thrust Master set, the stick, throttle and pedals. Not a bad set for entry level, the throttle is actually really good. The stick has a very stiff spring that will wear your arm out if you have to hold it. But other than that, decent stick. The pedals are the weak link. They're the slider type and they suck for precision movements. The real push/pull is where it's at, and on order. I have an old Satek that I removed the spring altogether. I just flops around like a wet noodle. It's almost as bad as the stiff spring type. I need one where it's adjustable and easy to change depending on the aircraft. Flying the F-16 you want stiff. Flying the Kiowa you want more loosey goosey. Anyone know what brand makes one?
Hello. Does this work with spring centering joystick too?
Yes
Which role does SCAS Heading Hold play? I see it works, but it has only little impact, its not real hold mode, just support for Trim force, right?
www.spinningwing.com/the-helicopter/sas-scas
@@CasmoTV Thx!
appreciate all the dcs videos! using springed vkb gf stick with extension, vkb pedals, for the kw the cyclic=fade in/out with pedals=none works the best for me. pedals automatically center once the tail plane become active with forward flight so pedal force trim not needed. wish ed will add the fade in/out option to the apache.
That’s good cause the pedals don’t have force trim
@@CasmoTV apache has force trim for the pedals?
@@kdfw3686 thought you were talking about the KW. yes Apache does.
I Found the airbags!
I have the vkb GF II. I cannot get it to trim. When I hit the trimmer the gray box moves but the red box goes back to the central position.
You’re hitting the reset me thinks
@@CasmoTV It was the force feedback. It was on, even though I would swear it was off.
Another quality whirlybird knowledge transfer. So what does the actual force trim switch do, is it simply enabling the cyclic to be trimmed? Why would you not want the force trim switch on and simply just not trim? Trim IRL locks the stick to a certain physical position correct?
Also wondering if you use any curves on the cyclic and pedals?
RLTW🫡
The force trim on does not "lock the stick" but engages magnetic brakes on the cyclic and pedal controls. When the force trim is on, you can still move the flight controls with some resistance provided by springs attached to the mag brakes.
The primary reason that KW pilots do not fly with force trim on all the time is because you have to use your thumb on the Force Trim Interrupt switch on the cyclic to momentarily disengage the force trim. In combat (or training) that same thumb is used to activate the Weapon's Fire Switch. So, when you suddenly get engaged by the enemy, you may need to evade incoming fire and/or immediately employ weapons on target. It's hard to hit both switches simultaneously, as OH-58D pilots were only issued one thumb per hand.
Its easy to fly the kiowa! The easiest helo in the dcs world! 👍
How are any of these settings affected if you use a FFB stick Casmo?
Can’t say. Dont have one.
What cams and springs do you use with your GF3? Also, is it the Ultimate?
Whatever it had I think. Idk. Stiffer side of things.
I don't know what's wrong with mine, but no matter which one I choose trim doesn't work at all on my stick. I have thew control window up and when I push the trim button, the grey diamond moves to the position, but the helo always moves back. When I hit the button my pedals trim perfectly like the grey line moves and the red line will stay with the grey line and the ship stays trimmed to my pedals, but the red diamond for my stick always goes right back to center even though the grey diamond stays in the trimmed position and the nose of the helo always shoots up and wont stay in the trimmed position. I have tried every option for trimming the stick but it just doesn't work. Why the pedals trim but the stick wont is crazy!
Your pedals shouldn’t move. They aren’t controlled by force trim.
Hello, my friend. Did you have service in Iraq, specifically in southern Baghdad in Doura and the rest of the areas of responsibility, in addition to the governorates of Diyala, Anbar, Salah al-Din, Kirkuk, and Hawija?
Main takeaways:
- Central trimmer will kill you sooner or later - use instant trim or buy a real force feedback stick
- Uncheck FFB under settings if you do not have one.
Of course every seasoned DCS player knows these.
I think that’s a huge assumption based on what I’ve seen.
Who does your video thumbnails man 😂
top👍👍
As a youtube comment creator and armchair pilot who has never flown the kiowa, I just want to be that guy and point out that you were wrong when you failed to mention anything about seatbelt shoulder harness fasten and adjust.
Helmet on, visor down.
But trim does NOT work at all...
Most people I know, the trim just won't work - although after a lot of setting/ unsetting/ trying things at least my Rudder will now trim... But the Stick just will not trim at all!
Comments like this always amaze me. I literally do it in a video for thousands of people to watch. It does work. Obviously.
@@CasmoTV Funny that it's only the Kiowa.
Not the Huey, not the Apache, not the Gazelle, not the Mi-8, not the BlackShark. I don't have the Hind, so I wouldn't know about that one.
I can see the force trim switch set on the centre console. I can see the trim button being depressed on the stick. It just will not trim (except for the rudder).
I just hope they fix this bug soon
Cracking stuff 🫡 Just changed from ‘Central Poition’ to ‘Fade In / Fade Out’. Seems much better, thnx
pedal trim pls i beg u
Doesn’t exist
@@CasmoTV but in special options appear pedal trim options
that EADI color is terrible, never flew the D but sat a lot of left seat in the A back in 84 Wiesbaden with my FS stick buddy from another unit next door, watching this video I am catching myself looking at the stdy`s and not the EADI for Att, AS and alt...
First post. Trump forever
Ew