Serena Williams Slice Serve
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- čas přidán 23. 10. 2011
- Slow motion and stop action video of Serena Williams hitting a slice serve ace while winning the title against Marion Bartoli at the Bank of the West Classic tournament, Stanford, CA 2011. Original video and content by Jim Fawcette (c)jfawcette
Update: Oct 25, 2016
Since this video I did of Serena way back in 2011 is still getting traction, let me update some things I've come across for those that are as interested in pro technique as I am.
First, I am still amazed by the emotional response of what I call the "Pronation Police", who treat the term as if it is a religious totem. But if the issue is actually trying to understand pro technique rather than fight over semantics, there are many, good resources. I'm simply an enthusiastic fan that follows the experts. I suspect part of the problem is that well-meaning tennis instructors in the 90s in correctly trying to describe how pros' arms rotate, mistakenly used a technical term in pronation to simply mean arm rotation and in the process bowdlerized it. Now, some attack anyone that questions their misuse. Sigh.
One commenter here noted that on the transition from leading with the racket edge to facing the ball, the arm appears to go through some pronation. That made sense to me. However, what I read is that this is "Mistakenly attributed to pronation when it is caused by interior shoulder rotation." Secondly, if you look closely at how on follow through, the wrist of top pros is often canted , not in alignment with the forearm, and the inside, forearm bone is thrust downward, that suggests "ulnar flexion" or "ulnar deviation", which is a different type of forearm rotation, one contradicting pronation. Finally, pronation is, technically, independent motion of the forearm, not part of "long axis rotation". Whew
Check out these tight shots of Djokovic and Raonic I took from their final at Indian Wells this March, paying particular attention to their wrists:
flic.kr/p/HHjMgr
flic.kr/p/ESL7DH
Here are what actual sports science researchers say. As two PhDs in biomechanics have written, Dr. Mark Kovacs of the ATP, who is featured on Fuzzy Yellow Balls, and Dr. Brian Gordon of Stanford, who is featured on www.tennisplayer.net "Pronation has a minor role in professional tennis serves" and "What tennis instructors incorrectly call pronation is actually ULNAR DEVIATION", as well as "Pronation contributes at most 10% to serves". Check out the extensive 3D modeling of professional serves on Tennisplayer dot net (Paid site, sorry):
www.tennisplayer.net/members/...
Here is an exchange Dr. Kovacs had with Will Hamilton of FYB:
Kovacs: "Our research shows that pronation has little or no role in the pro serve."
Will: "Wow. We were taught that way it the 90s".
Kovacs: "Yes. But they were wrong."
Link (sorry, but it is paid):
www.fybcourses.com/products/th...
As John Yandell writes in an excellent series there: "In addition we'll try to understand the difference between the common usage of a term like “pronation” in coaching and it's much stricter biomechanical definition-and how actual pronation is or isn't really involved in the pro serve motion. .. is there any independent pronation in this technical sense? According to Brian, the answer is usually no. And this seems to be consistent with what we see in the Federer high speed video. If you watch the upper arm and forearm it is impossible to detect any significant independent movement from the elbow out. The upper arm, forearm, hand and racket all seem to rotate as a single unit."
That's not pronation.
Meanwhile, for the Pronation Police, let me offer this Internet meme:
"You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means”
-- American actor Mandy Patinkin, who portrayed the swordsman Inigo Montoya in the 1987 romantic comedy The Princess Bride • You keep using that word. - Sport
I love to play tennis, I've won a few matches and tournaments, but lost a lot more. That the great thing about tennis you can always get better. I cant wait for the Corona to be over so I can work on my kick serve , drop shot and other strokes of the game.I could keep on writing but if you play tennis you do understand.
The winding up and hip rotation toward the back wall, plus the focus and aim with the racquet to the far net post were the two tips that helped me with this. Now I can either place the ball out wide to bounce low and away from my opponent, or have it spin and bounce into the body. Great slow motion tutorial!
Most people like myself a 4.0 find it hard to just get the timing right with toss before loading the legs. This is simply the first step in a fluid serve. The fluidity of Her trophy pose through loading up the racket, and then the pronation is much to be desired and her follow through. Stunning!
Very good video...clearly shows the dynamics...Need to watch it each time I practice....until it becomes perfect. Thx
Thanks!
WOW!!! some people keeps commenting negatively, ask yourself have you gone where is she now? just askin'!!!
COURT = SERENA'S PLAYGROUND!!! SHE WILL ALWAYS BE THE BEST IN HER TIME!!!
This high-speed scanning tape is great in terms of studying momentum transfer. The athletic is in vertical flight (no ground contact) long before the racquet and ball contact phase.
The problem I have with the part of the video where you say 'no pronation on the slice'. You CONVENIENTLY stop the video before she finishes the stroke; and say that her palm is facing the net at that point, when clearly her palm is facing to her right. Pronation should NOT be forced or even thought about during the actual swing. It's impossible to time any extra, non-natural, manufactured action properly. The arm naturally pronates in a proper throwing action. Loose arm & shoulders!
Well @armandgesit, to be accurate most ATP/WTA pro's do rotate their arm outward while hitting the slice serve. This is what most instructors incorrectly call pronation. I was simply pointing out that it isn't essential because not ALL of them do. Good luck with your serve!
Nice video, but there is definitely pronation. It is just pronating with the arm moving in a different direction than a flat serve.
no its not
HOW to hit a slice serve ( or any stroke) is not the same thing as "WHAT HAPPENS when you hit a slice serve" Too many people watch these videos and are focused on the "what happens' instead learning the " how." And Serena does pronate here.
Very nice video, and explanation as well. I didn't know that there is no pronation in slice serve, That's why i don't do it. Now I will.
A lot of commentary about "pronation" in the motion. You can pronate, but the best servers internally rotate the shoulder, which turns the palm toward the (right) fence (for a right hander). This is what ARTZY64 is (correctly) talking about. The difference in the serve types is in racket path relative to direction of serve and timing of the forearm rotation. On the slice serve the biggest opening of the racket occurs just as the strings near the lead edge of the racket hit the ball.
Yep, the racquet comes up on edge until about one foot from the ball, then rapidly opens up (explodes, actually... it can feel like a wrist snap but high-speed video has disproven that notion) to put the strings on the ball. The ball is then gone in a split second, so whatever happens to the arm after that must be done in such a way so as to protect the body from injury. Pronation protects the wrist, arm, and shoulder by allowing the large back muscles to take over the decelerating forces.
Wow can't believ I never heard that before. So my last post, so I get the point completely. You say on every serve pros mainly use rotation and not pronation?! But this rotation is teached as pronation? But you stated that Fed e.g. uses pronation mainly? So there it would not be a misuse of the word? Thanks for your fast answers, I'm a bit confused :)
Update: Oct 25, 2016: Since this video I did of Serena way back in 2011 is still getting traction, let me update some things I've come across for those that are as interested in pro technique as I am.
First, I am still amazed by the emotional response of what I call the "Pronation Police", who treat the term as if it is a religious totem. But if the issue is actually trying to understand pro technique rather than fight over semantics, there are many, good resources. I'm simply an enthusiastic fan that follows the experts. I suspect part of the problem is that well-meaning tennis instructors in the 90s in correctly trying to describe how pros' arms rotate, mistakenly used a technical term in pronation to simply mean arm rotation and in the process bowdlerized it. Now, some attack anyone that questions their misuse. Sigh.
One commenter here noted that on the transition from leading with the racket edge to facing the ball, the arm appears to go through some pronation. That made sense to me. However, what I read is that this is "Mistakenly attributed to pronation when it is caused by interior shoulder rotation." Secondly, if you look closely at how on follow through, the wrist of top pros is often canted , not in alignment with the forearm, and the inside, forearm bone is thrust downward, that suggests "ulnar flexion" or "ulnar deviation", which is a different type of forearm rotation, one contradicting pronation. Finally, pronation is, technically, independent motion of the forearm, not part of "long axis rotation". Whew
Check out these tight shots of Djokovic and Raonic I took from their final at Indian Wells this March, paying particular attention to their wrists:
flic.kr/p/HHjMgr
flic.kr/p/ESL7DH
Here are what actual sports science researchers say. As two PhDs in biomechanics have written, Dr. Mark Kovacs of the ATP, who is featured on Fuzzy Yellow Balls, and Dr. Brian Gordon of Stanford, who is featured on www.tennisplayer.net "Pronation has a minor role in professional tennis serves" and "What tennis instructors incorrectly call pronation is actually ULNAR DEVIATION", as well as "Pronation contributes at most 10% to serves". Check out the extensive 3D modeling of professional serves on Tennisplayer dot net (Paid site, sorry):
www.tennisplayer.net/members/...
Here is an exchange Dr. Kovacs had with Will Hamilton of FYB:
Kovacs: "Our research shows that pronation has little or no role in the pro serve."
Will: "Wow. We were taught that way it the 90s".
Kovacs: "Yes. But they were wrong."
Link (sorry, but it is paid):
www.fybcourses.com/products/th...
As John Yandell writes in an excellent series there: "In addition we'll try to understand the difference between the common usage of a term like “pronation” in coaching and it's much stricter biomechanical definition-and how actual pronation is or isn't really involved in the pro serve motion. .. is there any independent pronation in this technical sense? According to Brian, the answer is usually no. And this seems to be consistent with what we see in the Federer high speed video. If you watch the upper arm and forearm it is impossible to detect any significant independent movement from the elbow out. The upper arm, forearm, hand and racket all seem to rotate as a single unit."
That's not pronation.
Meanwhile, for the Pronation Police, let me offer this Internet meme:
"You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means” -- American actor Mandy Patinkin, who portrayed the swordsman Inigo Montoya in the 1987 romantic comedy The Princess Bride czcams.com/video/G2y8Sx4B2Sk/video.html
Tip for left-handed players learning from this great tutorial: replace the "youtube" with "mirrorthevideo" and you'll watch the video reversed (Serena serving left-handed).
Easy. At :20, at :50, at 1:54. The palm is facing toward the right fence, NOT at the target.
Pronation: rotation of the forearm in such a way that the palm of the hand faces backward when the arm is in the anatomic position, or downward when the arm is extended at a right angle to the body
Sorry, but no. Also, your definition of pronation is incomplete. It is independent rotation of the forearm NOT to be confused with interior-and-exterior rotation of the shoulder, i.e. long-axis rotation. You might read Dr. Brian Gordon's analysis of serves on Tennisplayer dot net. He's a biomechanist out of Stanford that breaks down professional tennis serves in detail, "True pronation provides only 10% of force in the professional serve."
What happened to sound in the video.. no longer we hear it
I don't think she stops rotating at impact, why you stopped the video at the most interesting part? :D At the end I think seconds later one would see that her racketface points to the right, so even Serena does rotate. But I'm not sure cause the first slowmotion is filmed from a bad angle so it's not really clear to see
So do I get you right? She does not mainly use her wrist(pronation), but her shoulder(rotation), so after she hits the ball the racket face is pointed to the right and this is caused in her case because of rotation but in Feds case it would be pronation?
Jim, you are correct! For those of you think there is pronation, here is the proof of what REALLY happens on the serve: Go to Performance Plus Tennis here on CZcams and review the video titled "Build a Professional Serve Motion". This video clarifies what movement really occurs on the serve, and what you need to focus on to develop a powerful and professional service motion. I welcome your feedback.
Does anyone know if 3D video of serves exist? It would help to see it this way
Yes. One is extensive research by a biomechanics prof at Stanford. One place that is published is on tennisplayer dot com, but that is a paid subscription web site.
Yup, good observation that her arm rotates prior to striking the ball, but does not continue to rotate severely outward, which is the process that some teaching pros characterize as pronation and claim all pros do on every single serve. There are many elements of rotation: Shoulder, ulnar deviation, and pronation, certainly not predominantly pronation (a misused word).
Williams does not end up with her palm facing far out to her right or even upwards, as say, John Isner does on a kick serve.
The arm is 100% pronating
You all can create a million videos of her serve and no one will be able to read it! Except Venus ❤️
What are you rabbiting on about?
Nice vid,thanks.
Should i keep the racket back stretched before turning shoulders?
theeachuisge Lots of variations. Suggest looking at some of the very good slomo of Fed online. His model is perhaps easier to emulate than many others. Good luck!
exactly- you dont need to pronate. Its supination and works just fine for a slice serve
I agree.
The video leaves out the follow-through... And that is needed to have a meaningful analysis.
Racket clearly continues and there is definitely pronation. Pronation may be after contact but there is pronation.
she `s serve grip so western isn`t ?
Definitely pronation happening although slight. If there was no pronation the forearm would not rotate and action would look very much like chopping or hammering a nail. You can see Serena Serena's Palm move from facing the left sideline to downwards facing the court, it's only facing the target at impact and immediately after impact the palm starts to face down as a result of the forearm twisting or pronating.
Serena said that lady tennis players should be allowed to take thier shirt off on the court! Serena please spare us! Dont ever take your shirt off on the court!
It is confusing. It's trendy in tennis teaching to claim pros pronate on EVERY serve. This is somewhat true. Fed, for example, has the same arm rotation with the palm facing out on every serve. Fed simply changes when he rotates his arm and the angle on impact. I'm trying to show here that this is not the only way to hit slice serves. Serena stops rotating on impact. There is a second issue: What they are attempting to describe is technically not pronation, but arm rotation w"Ullnar deviation".
it's difficult to look the serve...
There is pronation on all types of serves. The throwing motion protects the arm, wrist and shoulder from injury. Google that. Don't mess with Mother Nature. The different serves are simply struck at different angles. Pronation happens in a proper throwing motion. Stand up, turn slightly sideways as if serving, and throw your arm forward. The palm will be facing outwards at finish. Good old Mother Nature... don't try 'gimmicks'
I never said anything about shoulder rotation! My definition is from Stedman's Medical Dictionary. I am very familiar with Brian Gordon's work. He has substantiated much of the work of Oscar Wegner, an authoritative source on modern tennis technique. Besides, the question here was not the degree of force from pronation in the pro serve, you contended that it does not exist in this example, which the footage itself clearly contradicts.
Couple of points 1) Serena rotates her arm dramatically, from the shoulder and past contact on most serves 2) But on some slice serves she does NOT continue rotating through contact -- what happens after the racket is down to your waist is largely irrelevant 3) rotating from the shoulder is NOT pronation. Teaching pros misuse the term. That latter point is not my conclusion, that's what bio-mechanical scientists have posted on places such as Tennisplayer
I'm don't mean to say that Fed uses pronation; instead, he uses what teaching pros call pronation. Scientists say that is the wrong word.
Again, this isn't my opinion, this is what bio-mechanical scientists that study athletes say.
Wish I could post links, but CZcams blocks those. Look at, say, some photos of Djokovic. You see him rotate from his shoulder, then after the ball is hit, the outside bone on his forearm is pushed up, other bone, the "Ulner" is pointing down. Not simple pronation
Yes, amateurs can, but pros don't. That hasn't been taught in perhaps 20 years and certainly no tour pros suppinate on the slice. The question is whether the pros rotate their arms and palms outward after impact on every serve. Many pros (Federer, Djokovic, Raonic) do, I'm simply showing that isn't the only way.
best serve in the woman's game beside Plischova / Osaka
So, I'm guessing that you are a top male player? If not, I really don't see how you could possibly criticize anyone's technique. I would posit that any technique that allows a player to accumulate 17 grand slams over the period of 15+ years is the technique that all should adopt.
So, one should be a car manufacturer to criticize a car, book writer to criticize a book, movie maker to criticize a movie, football player to criticize a player... the list goes on. Interesting.
It is all about her muscle.
Robin Soderling pronates on the slice serve
I just ran this video at half-speed (which is 1/4 full speed) and she DOES pronate on the slice serve. It's simply not natural to not pronate. This guy is wrong, and on top of that many people are going to wind up with tennis elbow because of that.
Everybody, just throw the racquet head at the ball without trying to put any 'junk' on the ball. The arm will turn inward naturally (to protect itself).
Not quite 2 points What bio-mechanical types that measure angles and movement of the limbs say is that ALL the pro servers rotate their arms primarily from the shoulder. Technically, this is "interior and exterior shoulder rotation with ulner deviation". Whew!
"Pronation" is independent rotation of your forearm. Think of turning a door knob counter-clockwse by simply rotating y forearm.
So, teaching pros that say "pronate" are misusing the word.
2nd for slice SW stops the rotation at impact
pronation should be a result and not a goal to reach.. Federer pronate on all type of serve...
Hello u answered your own question knife edge to the ball racquet face towards target at contact...she already pronated Bahaha come on...plus watch the follow through her racquet facing the right side!
Guys, no point of argument regarding PRONATION!!!! First off, you need to know the anatomical positions of the body, the body kinetics and movements of limbs. I beg to disagree with you Jim for EMPHASIZING that there is NO PRONATION here!!! You are absolutely wrong. Let me give you the EXACT ANATOMICAL positions of the serve. You said that the motions involved are Shoulder Rotation (IR/ER) and Ulnar Deviation (Wrist Adduction). However, you failed to mention the other joints movements. You only mentioned the shoulder and ulnar joint and you failed to mention the elbow or forearm joint (both the proximal and distal radioulnar joints which primary movements are PRONATION and SUPINATION). Pronation means rotation of the forearm inward in such a way that the palm is facing backward and supination is the outward or external rotation of the forearm such that the palm is facing forward. In case of the serve, all the joints starting from the shoulder down to the wrist joint are involved. They start out from hyperextension and external rotation of the shoulder, extension of the elbow joint, supination of the forearm joints (radioulnar), extension and RADIAL deviation or ABDUCTION of the wrist (radiocarpal) joint TO flexion and internal rotation (IR) of the shoulder jt, flexion to extension of the elbow jt, PRONATION of the FA jts and flexion and ULNAR deviation or ADDUCTION of the wrist (radiocarpal) joint. PLEASE don't be ignorant and say that THERE is NO PRONATION of the wrist in this motion. You can clearly SEE here that the palm is FACING DOWNWARD and that is PURE PRONATION!!! I get your point that what you were trying to say here is that 10% of the force comes from pronation and most of it comes from the shoulder's rotatory mechanisms. Yes, you can be right with that. What I thought is that this guy who studied the tennis kinetics analysis PUT emphasis on the amount of muscles and power involved in the motions. Say 70% comes from shoulder rotator muscles, 20% from elbow flexors/extensors and say 10% comes from wrist muscles. BUT please, don't say that THERE IS NO PRONATION because as a physical therapist myself, this is just unacceptable. By the way, I am a doctor in physical therapy and I know very well exactly what I'm talking about. Also, I play tennis too, so I fairly know what's going on in tennis.
Roger Inciong I think we agree. Ironically, just this morning I got a promotional email from FuzzyYellowballs (which has been pushing pronation for years), in which they admit they were wrong. They're selling what might be a good program on serving by a doctor that studied serving for the USTA.
I believe so ***** I've never seen anyone discuss that. I've been thinking about tracing the path of the racket tip on the upswing. But I have to learn to use something like Apple's Motion to create the path-tracking video -- and I'm dreading that
Best to tell the biomechanical researchers that say pronation has a negligible role in pro-level serves ***** For example, Dr. Mark Kovac of the ATP describes it on FYB.
Also, there is a Stanford professor that does extensive studies of the biomechanics of serves using ray-traces. Can't recall his name off hand but his work is used by a number of top instructors including Rick Macci, and is described in detail on www.tennisplayer.net
Good luck!
Sorry.....but pronation for sure. From racket edge position to hitting the ball, if she didn't pronate she'd hit the ball with the edge. Granted not fully pronated as she would in a flat serve, but no doubt she pronates. You've obviously stirred the net of pros. Good vid but it's the path of the arm that is really the difference in her flat and slice serve which makes the pronation appear to be less. what is less is the amount of pronation in her follow through. But the "no pronation" comment just is not accurate.
Go to Performance Plus Tennis here on CZcams and review the video titled "Build a Professional Serve Motion". This video clarifies what movement really occurs on the serve, and what you need to focus on to develop a powerful and professional service motion.
Thanks, Good video. VERY VERY clearly shows pronation. All your examples and your demo. Wrist snap is a confusing term. The "snap" many pros are referring to is actually pronation. thanks again for sharing and definitely needs to be in this tread that doubts pronation.
Your comment makes sense to me, Larry but ... I searched and what I found was, "That is a common misconception. Rotation of the racket face from on edge to facing the racket is caused by internal shoulder rotation." Don't shoot the messenger ! :)
Hi Larry, Please check out Performance Plus Tennis here on CZcams and review the video titled "Build a Professional Serve Motion". This video clarifies what movement really occurs on the serve, and what you need to focus on to develop a powerful and professional service motion. Please send me and Jim your feedback. Thanks, John
um there is pronation
No, just watch slow-motion video
stopping the video when its good for you is not a nice thing to do !! go 2 frames further and youll see there is pronation and isr , youll see the backside of the string are pointed to the servicebox!!!!! if you want slice with enough speed you need to have it , watch zverev slice at 195km or raonic
Just ran YOUR slo-motion in MY slo-motion and in fact she does pronate is this particular video. You stopped the video too soon, thus avoiding showing that. It's so obvious that you cheated there. People aren't stupid... look at the confusion here,, and the proof is in MY video. Stopping the pronation abruptly, half way will lead to injury over time.
one hundred percent agree . Opens up way to early doesnt pronate on her slice serve she slaps at it. If she had better technique, like any male pro her serve would be harder and more consistent..
Don't feed the troll. He/she knows Queen Rena is the greatest womens tennis player.
Without pronating she would hit the ball with the edge, not with string. Period.
No pro does that... that's for hackers
A wonderful fake. Slice can touch her only by the racket work of the arm from an elbow. At first she grips it and changes it. She throws the remainder by an angle of
the gut and the turn of the arm.
nice Butt