Borderline or Covert Narcissist? (7th Intl. Conference on Psychiatry & Psychological Disorders)
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- čas přidán 21. 11. 2021
- How to tell the difference (differential diagnosis) between someone with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) and a covert Narcissist?
High-functioning Borderlines succeed to regulate their emotions and moods for certain periods of time, giving the impression that they are actually grandiose covert narcissists (Borderlines are as grandiose as narcissists and psychopaths).
Here is how to tell the difference:
Covert (fragile, shy, vulnerable) narcissists never experience suicidal ideation or attempt suicide. They externalize aggression and are typically negativistic (passive-aggressive);
Covert narcissists do not experience separation insecurity (abandonment anxiety) and they maintain object constancy;
Covert narcissists are not clinging or needy;
Covert narcissists are self-efficacious, most borderlines are self-defeating;
Borderlines are self-critical. Akin to neurotics, they have autoplastic defenses and dichotomous thinking (splitting). Covert narcissists have alloplastic defenses;
Borderlines are highly emotive and dysregulated. They are overwhelmed by their emotions. Covert narcissists display only negative affectivity and often have reduced affect display.
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I can say borderline is more blunt and direct. Covert narcissist is more sneaky, try to fake a nice image.
I was in a relationship for years with a covert narcissist. Even though they don’t have abandonment anxiety they can sure fool you into believing they do which is probably fake emotions learned from other people. What they are really trying to avoid is the shame or public humiliation that Dr. Vaknin is talking about especially when they aren’t ready to let you go as a supply.
Thank you for sharing your expertise & wisdom with the world. After escaping a horribly toxic 30yr marriage, you & your work brought clarity where there used to exist only mud. In his world of games, you have been a game changer, helping me understand he's been changing the rules with nearly every breath he takes. Thanks for what you do. Much respect.
Escaping after 30 years? Was this in Afghanistan or just a classic "I had no money" scenario?
I understand as I was 27 years in my marriage and have discovered my mother to be a narcissist and have gotten out of that relationship as well.
@@valshiro515someone in the comments lacks a bit of empathy
I've been diagnosed with BPD and today I've stumbled across a video about covert narcissism. There were signs I recognized myself in.. I was so scared of having NPD and having maybe been wrongly diagnosed... But this video has 100% helped in understanding the differences and similarities and that my diagnosis is spot on. Thank you for the video.
I just got out of a toxic relationship of 7 years after I found out he cheated on me and he's lost his job 6 months ago without telling me and gathering debts while living off my money (as soon as I had no money left he also left) and he called me a narcissist I stumbled upon the term of covert narcissism and got scared too but after this video I have no doubt that my bpd diagnosis is right and he just wanted to make me feel like shit since his mom once called me a narcissist for making him move away from her to start a job (that I got him) in my town...
i dont get that because to me, because I've been targeted by narcissists, bpd is nothing like narcissism!
id rather npd than bpd
@@zentzu4003 nah, if I was NPD, I would probably not have been in therapy. I would have a lot less insight and awareness. Thankfully, I've always had a mild form of BPD and after some years of therapy now I've been freed of the diagnosis.
I think the fact that you wonder this about yourself and are able to comfortably speak upon those thoughts is proof enough that you don’t have a personality disorder centered around narcissism.
I’m BPD as well and have gone through a similar journey. At the end of the day, all of the cluster personality disorders are just taking a scatter plot of human behavior, grouping them based on comorbid occurrences, and highlighting that some folks exist on a spectrum above others.
Some exist on that spectrum and display some of the worst behaviors known to man… but they’re known. Some go the opposite way and display behaviors that are deeply empathetic and vulnerable.
Hope you’re doing well.
This is the best explanation of the differences that I have seen. Thank you.
Thank you professor Vaknin for all of your work over decades, and for making your findings freely available to the world. I have been following you only for a couple of years now and I am a greatful fan. My intimate partner was diagnosed borderline personality disorder 22 years ago but she did not have any idea really what it meant . We have known each other for 15 years but together intimately for 6 of those years. I did not really know anything about cluster B disorders until about 2 years ago when our relationship started to devolve to its current state of ruin. My only explanation of what my life has become comes from the things i have learned from your videos. At first I was duped by the so called "experts" that in my opinion should be ashamed to make profit from distraught victims, after discarding their own toxic relationships. Then your videos were mixed in there with those man hating life coaches, and podcasters, whining about narsasistic partners. I never learned any real clinical information until watching your videos. You have given me a vocabulary with which i can more effectively describe to my partners mental health care providers the issues that would otherwise take away from our quality of life. One more accolade to mention in your intros... Sam Vaknin professor of psychology author of Malignant self-love narcissism revisited , and personal savior of two American cross-addicted mental patients from Anytown USA. So captivating to me are your videos, that i have found the motivation at 51 years old , to enroll in college to pursue a psychology degree. Thank you professor, you are literally an inspiration. Can you do or have you done a video about borderline dissociation and the difference or similarity to dissociation in dissociative identity disorder?
My mom is a complicated case. She has the very classic BPD traits of fear of abandonment, goes on "smear campaigns", you are either the best or the worst any given moment, etc. However, she also displays many covert narcissistic characteristics you laid out here. For example, she doesn't self loathe, she can't ever be wrong, even when all evidence in front of her shows that she is. She is not suicidal and does not self harm, instead, you are the problem. She has many (but not all) of the traits of a covert narcissist and many (but not all) traits of BPD. The ones she doesn't display of BPD (like self loathing) is because the narcissistic mindset appears to override in the scenarios. Anyone had insight into this situation?
Yes.. like half borderline half narcissist like a half breed mongrel? Your not wrong
@@shannonlouise211 I've done research since then an the name for it is malignant personality disorder. Fits her to a T.
Borderlines are covertly narcissistic. Covert narcissism is a set of pathological traits that cause distress to the individual.
I’m also like that.. i have internal grandiosity (as in i think i’m better in most things but i don’t show it except if i’m denied of the validation like praise etc) and my rage is always external, most of the time i blame the other person and never me. But at the same time i’m also dependent towards my SO, they ignoring me feels like i’m dying and constant splitting thinking they’re the best person ever and i love them so much then the next day i think they’re worthless and i can’t stand them.
Personally i think everything is spectrum and people can score pretty high on both which results in a lot of overlaps. Personality is complex like that, no size fits all.
I could have written that about my own mother.
But I think my mother doesn't self-loathe in front of me, but might do it in front of someone else. I feel her shame and self-loathing even thought she tries to keep a strong facade. From this video I recognized BPD, definitely... The internalization of imagined aggression, followed by open aggression when the defenses fail to protect her. Aggressions that she does not seem to remember. She doesn't say it but I can see she is highly critical of herself too. She will criticize me, but she tends to project herself onto me, as her only daughter, so it is often all projections.
The BPD face would probably change depending on who they are facing, since the emotions generated wouldn't be the same?
SO SO brilliant. Thank you, as always, Dr. Vaknin.
Thank you so much for explaning this diffuculties about these two disorders.🙏
Now I understand why he was more worried about being exposed and his Friends, family and ex lovers Will think about him. Instead of him being concerned about me leaving him, once I exposed him.
Mine too, it was her biggest concern.
I was starting to think I am a covert narc but nope I am definitely still borderline
Great video thank you.
Same goes for me. Such a relief
Thank you for this excellent presentation!
Thank you for this wonderful clarification.🤙🏾
Thank You professor Vaknin .
Thank you, very helpful information.
Wow, great explanations! Thank you
This was fascinating... i am still confused and i will have to watch this a couple more times, but , FASCINATING! It would be neat to have some sort of scene acted out in a real world example to help people like me who are visual learners.
Ineed 😊
clear explanation - thank you
Great video. Thank you
Great video, very clarifying
Thank you. I see the difference now.
14:37 - 14:46 about the Covert Borderline & the poker face. Damn you got me figured out..LMAO!..LOL!..LMAO!!! I watched your videos about the Covert Borderline and I actually died with laughter. Pierced right through me. Out of all the videos about the covert narcissist, overt narcissist, malignant narcissist, classical borderline and etc, you finally caught me. Can't wait for some more of your vids on the Covert Borderline.
Thank you for explaining so well
Professor Vaknin, can you please make more videos about codependent personality disorder, I also watched your previous ones on this subject too, or to recommend some authors on this subject. Thank you.
Omgggg I been praying for this answer on my 1 sister of 3 , bc she is def one of em and displays toxic behaviors of both.
Awesome information, thank you.
Fascinating
I have always been very hard on myself, I am learning to be compassionate within the critical dialogue in my mind, it's a process of catching myself putting myself down and giving myself a break. My mother was always and still is very critical of me, I think this is where it stems from. Does that make me a borderline?
We are dealing with mere opinions of humans who need to make sense of the spiritual human dynamic that no books can answer. I think it would be unwise and do yourself a disservice to qualify such a dynamic of your integrity and life by such perspectives. Just a thought. 🙏
My sister although diagnosed bpd was a covert narcissistic. Hated other people as much as herself. She had auditory and visual hallucinations as well.
Profesor Vaknin, after this video (and I watched a lot of yours) if there are such differences between borderline and covert narcissist, which are opposite to each other, then how can one person have both diagnoses of BPD and NPD? What then determines how he/she will behave? Thanks a lot, your videos are extremely helpful!
Are there any videos you have published which compare covert to overt narcissist? They seem to have many similarity’s from what you describe, but the differences I’m not sure on other than the covert being unable to readily obtain supply. Many thanks Sam, I think you are wonderful!
They go about it in an indirect or passive aggressive manner, like appearing meek, mild, shy, or unassuming as opposed to boastful, grandiose, obnoxious but once you interact more with them they exhibit signs of superiority, entitlement, being right all the time, subtle passive aggressiveness and put downs if you disagree with or roast them as a joke (make a narcissistic wound), they are more wont to display lack of self esteem but as an indirect way to garner external sympathy, validation and admiration from others to boost their ego. They lack a core sense of self and internal sources of self-worth, everything is sought externally but they go about it in an indirect fashion. People are not seen as people to emotionally connect to but rather as narcissistic supply and only to be exploited.
It helped me a lot to hear these things , thanks! It is a relief! maybe I'm a borderline or a bipolar but I'm not a covert narcissist, whew! my father is an overt narcissist and I don't want to be like him at all.
You don't want to be a borderline also, do you think this shit is fun or less bad?
@@shoegazer5451 of course it isnt nice to have any kind of disorder.
A bit of a slap in the face to people who do have Covert Narcissism. Especially when it’s derived from trauma and they can’t help but be narcissists.
@@Mariclairy idk i think the relief of not having it is fair. both disorders are horrible. if someone told me "thank god i dont have bpd" i really wouldnt deep it too much. if anything its acknowledgment to the fact having to experience it is hell for those who have it and all those effected by it.
@@yumyumlotus perhaps but it’s important to remember that people don’t pick their mental disorders.
A lot of it is derived from trauma.
I'm so touched by such a refined and wise definition of the difference between the two terms. One of the thousand skills of Prof. Sam , showing the deepest knowledge of this great teacher .
Such a great display of a perfect narc supply that you are. Showering him with compliments when not even asked for. It's amazing how codependents voluntarily flee to narcs and don't even know it.
@@valshiro515 Unluckily for your imagination, I simply admire culture and clever people , well aware of all the ones they've truly helped. In this life, better admiring than envying , in my honest opinion.
@@francescavitaliani2337 you missed my entire point 🤷♀️
I will survive , don' t you worry. Regards
@@francescavitaliani2337 your survival is the last thing I worry about but how curious it is that you actually think that strangers online could worry about it. Am I picking up on some NPD symptoms in you or is it just a coincidence that you are projecting your expectation of worry onto others?
Thank you for explaining my marriage to me!
In my experience I think these behaviors can be pervasive, depending on the persons past experience, there's a matrix of behavior of disorders. Hence,this is why I think it's important for somebody to be diagnosed. Is all to easy to label these diagnosis as unsomebody after something extreme is happen because it just magnify one of the behaviors.
Thank you, Dr., I have been watching your videos, and you are extremely brilliant and have a unique perspective on both NPD & BPD. My question, though, is, how do you feel regarding petulant borderline subtype? Considering the petulant subtype tends also to externalize anger and rarely faces suicidal ideation? I’ve heard that clinically, the petulant subtype and the vulnerable narcissist type are nearly impossible to distinguish. Could you share your thoughts?
These subtypes are not clinically recognize. I have been advocating since 1997 the unification of all cluster B disorders into a single diagnosis.
can a covert narcissist lie about attempting suicide to garner sympathy & attention?
If possible, If you would like to professor Sam Vaknin to discuss about the covert narcissistic mother that over-protects/smothering by controlling the child from reality but does not realise that she is creating an anxious weak, or rebellious child out of paranoia in case if her child is hunted by a stranger or environmental accidents. However, it ends up dangerous because the anxious weak child will more likely to be hunted by other people and the rebellious becomes risky in the future.
Dang. My x sounded like a mix of both of these. Is that even possible??? The only thing she has been diagnosed with so far is RAD. Which is difficult as well.
This sounds like it is getting towards my ex but it seems he has part this and part something else. I still do not know if he is a something narcissist because he cannot love. He can not be wrong about anything nor can he ever say sorry or apologise. Yet we had been married for 50yrs. I am not perfect but I tried to be.
Greetings Professor, thank you for all your work and sharing in this field. I would just like to ask the following: in another video you made, you mentioned that people with NPD DO have a fear of abandonment, and to be fair I saw specific ways in which it manifested in my ex to be husband, until he finally discarded me. In this video you state otherwise, that the narc doesn’t have abandonment anxiety… can you perhaps clarify this? Spasiba
This video is about COVERT narcissists, not OVERT narcissists.
@@deborahbulthe In previous, recent videos of this channel, abandonment anxiety / separation insecurtity was clearly stated as a feature of narcissim in general. it does seem quite confusing and somewhat irritating to come upon such unexplained paradoxes from someone who states first and foremost to be very knowlegedable in this field in almost every video.
@@unaburke1693 Please do remember that this is not an exact science. Every personality disorder has a spectrum and every person is different because different events have occurred for them to have enough trauma to develop a personality disorder. There can be no absolute truth in topics like this.
@@unaburke1693 I hope Professor Sam can find the least of humility in him (Professor, I also have sense of humor ☺️), and acknowledge that the memory of a narc is indeed, poor. Shalom 🌸
@@samvaknin well, from my own experience with ex to be narc husband, who is covert, he sure showed some serious episodes of abandonment anxiety to me…. Resulting in more threats, intimidation, testing, etc. thank you for your time.
I'm dealing with a BPD or Narc or something. I'm always wrong, blamed for everything, he lies when I have proof in my hand. He agreed to a polygraph. Can they pass if they believe their own lies?
No they will agree to take it because their narcissism makes them believe they will pass. Chris Watts is a prime example of this if you are familiar with his case
Just check the Chris Watts case. After undertaking the test proudly and confidently, he finally failed on it, just like a 4 year old child
Dear Sam,
Might you find that the covert narcissist becomes suicidal or at risk of suicidal thoughts during phases of Cold therapy ?
Yes. Level 1 induces suicidal ideation in about 40% of those treated. Hence the 24/7 observation period which is an integral part of Level 1.
No a narc believes they’re above grief and sadness that’s why they destroy suicidal borderlines to project there wrong doings and emptiness
Suicide is “above them” pessimism and unauthentic
1:10 here it starts
Interesting i have not heard anything like this before. There’s a lot of conflicting evidence and theories of covert narcissism and bpd.
Can people have both at the same time?
Yes.
I'm glad you asked this as I was wondering the same thing!
I’m a co dependent in therapy and the borderline seems v similar in many ways??
Can I ask, Can a covert narcissist APPEAR to be self deprecating? 'It's all my fault, I hate myself, you hate me, I feel guilt constantly etc etc', but secretly feel like it's all the persons fault and use this as a tactic? My ex appears to be doing just 'fine' now without me, and blamed his rage ON me, and that 'people need to shout when they are angry'. He said I was calculated and controlled because I wouldn't scream back at him, and I refused to call him names. - like he did to me - because (and he couldn't quite believe this) I actually loved him, and didn't want to hurt his feelings.. he is jealous of the world. Can someone be secretly grandiose?
Yes. This is known as pseudo-humility. They also humblebrag.
Does narcissism and BPD have to be mutually exclusive? what are the statistics of someone having both
NPD can be comorbid with BPD. There are no reliable studies on how frequently they co-occur.
Still can't decide which one is my ex
@SamVaknin I am seeing a person with both NPD and BPD. He has both criteria. He went for years more covert narcissist but went through a major life defeat including a terminal illness diagnosis and appears BPD most days until he doesn't get his way then the vicious side comes out to play. Can there be both diagnosis in one individual?
Yes. Search the channel for “comorbidity”.
@samvaknin Thank you. Your videos have kept me sane through this roller coaster ride from hell.
My ex matches the description of both borderline and covert narcissism.
I could tell within a month that something isnt right but i never experienced such a behavior before and didnt even know such people exist.
Her mother is in treatment for 10 years with depressions but I suspect she got something else.
My ex also said that she is like her mom but she as long as she has her horse around her she is fine.
She would complain about her childhood all the time and that she would never let her mom never look after her kids.
Some things she said:
“Other girls dont like me because they are jelous of me”
“One day all (rich) men will realize that I am the best one”
“You all don’t know how it is to be me”
“I want to get admired”
She had literally 0 friends and always on her phone.
She believes that by sending nudes to guys she gets admired.
Everything about her is sexuality and sex. That’s how she gets attention and she is convinced that it makes guys like her
sounds like somatic narcissist
It's pretty sad ,Unaware that they will use and abuse and carry on .
Professor, will a covert borderline male show less separation anxiety than you speak of here? Thank you.
Less than a classic borderline, yes.
You said a covert narcissist doesn’t experience suicidal ideation but do they ever lie about being suicidal?
They could in order to emotionally extort.
Can someone have both? The behaviors and actions of bps but checks the all marks for covert narcissism ?
Yes.
It’s very confusing, but isn’t the distinction Btwn narcs and borderlines is that narcs are incapable of admitting fault or being held accountable? Whereas, borderlines (esp ones who self-harm as coping mechanism and aren’t necessarily aware of the pain they are in) kind of assume things are their fault and there’s something inherently broken in them? Ie. Borderlines will inquire if they are narcs. Or when docs point out narcissistic traits, they don’t necessarily become defensive. Whereas narcs (covert or overt) will never ask. If u tell them, they deny. It doesn’t seem to matter how much damage they “accidentally” cause; as far as they are concerned, there is no past there are no facts. There isn’t any pattern of behavior they can recognize. No truth other than what perpetuates their false self. They are always good ppl who did the best they cld. They will repeat the same “mistake” over & over until they destroy u or they die. Is that accurate? Basing this entirely on personal experience, and just as borderlines manifest disorder in vastly diff ways, narcs do too, so these generalizations may be overly broad or stereotypes..
I am not sure if my answer is right. I do not have expertise in this field. However, just wanted to throw some thoughts here. And actually would to see if I understood these concepts right.
1. There may not be much difference in the behavioural outcome between BPD and NPDs, but the cause of the behaviour could be way different. And since the intentions are different, BPD may feel bad about it while the NPD doesn’t. (Jump to point 6 if the answer seems too long)
2. Also Covert NPDs don’t always openly deny that it is their fault, especially the smart ones. They pretend like they accept it but slowly manipulate the partner into thinking it is their fault.
Few behaviours that NPD specifically displays:
3. NPD can treat their partner extremely nice in front of others but drop their mask when nobody is around. And this change in behaviour can happen too quick. I don’t think change in mood can happen that quick with BPD, but I am not sure.
4. On top of everything, NPDs display a great sense of entitlement and exploit anyone who can fall prey to them (not only intimate partners). I wonder if BPD has this sense of entitlement
5. Both can use silent treatment as a way of control. But BPD idealizes their partner and would still hurt them out of fear of abandonment, but NPDs silent treatment is more to punish the partner.
Finally,
6. BPD can love a person, more like an obsession or idealisation. NPDs can never truly love anyone more than they love oneself. And finally this could be the reason why a BPD can show signs of change or self reflection or even seek therapy because ultimately, they don’t want to not lose the love of their life. And it is this abandonment and self reflection that can push them to suicide.
But nobody can convince an NPD to do the same.
My partner displays characteristics of both. Is that possible to be co-morbid with these two that seem to have so many polarities?
It is.
@@samvaknin thank you. It has been so confusing to know which it is. You explain everything so well and so clearly. Just when I’ve heard you describe a covert narcissist I think that is exactly what my partner has and then I hear your videos on BPD and I think that is what he is. I have been listening to your videos for 10 years and they have helped ENORMOUSLY. I cannot thank you enough.
Can someone be both? Both a covert narcissist & borderline? Or covert with borderline traits??? Is there such a thing?
Search this channel for "covert borderline".
Professor my relationship was love bombing then he did not want to touch me then in beginning he was all over me then he is said I don't like touching he was in church as a preacher he was drinking a lot and when he was in pepole company he used pepole with is charm do gain from them I could see this he told me he was helping them now I could see it then he joke with me the way I looked and walked and made a joke of it then he would never commitment to marriage only future faking after 10 years he would not take me out at night only the day time always talk about himself what he done I walked away maney times but in the end I discarded him because he never change he s gone back to his old supply when I discarded I did love him but I think he never loved me I tryed everything
Can a covert ever collapse enough to transition into Borderline line ( failed narcissist) or is this just another act by the narcissist ?
Covert cycle to overts, not to borderline, though they may transition through borderline-like phases of emotional dysregulation.
Border line sounds v similar to co dependency. In many ways while obviously manifested in different ways. ?