I Fixed the KTM 50 Clutch... It's Fast & NO MORE WASHER STACKS. 2002 to 2008
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- čas přidán 13. 02. 2023
- The 2002 to 2008 KTM 50 was brutal on mini Dad's for maintenance due to the unreliable washer stacks clutch. The washer stack was the only cheap option if you wanted to go fast.
I have developed a method to modify the stock clutch shoes to produce reliable consistent power for very little money.
Parts list:
UPDATE: Grainger is screwing everyone with a minimum quantity order amount for the red die springs! Minimum order of 100 springs is ridiculous! I have found another option but it's not ideal, still expensive. I have zero experience with this vendor. Buy at your own risk, here's hoping it works. I will try and find a similar spring and hopefully a better vendor. www.raptorsupplies.com/pd/ass...
Red Spring www.grainger.com/product/RAYM...
22mm Music Wire Gray Spring(optional) www.grainger.com/product/SPEC...
Carb I used. Will require a re jet: www.mopeddivision.com/part-ty...
3D print jig www.printables.com/model/4346...
Tags: KTM 50 Pro, Junior, Senior, LC, Mini Adventure, Mini
UPDATE: Grainger is screwing everyone with a minimum quantity order amount for the red die springs! Minimum order of 100 springs is ridiculous! I have found another option but it's not ideal, still expensive. I have zero experience with this vendor. Buy at your own risk, here's hoping it works. I will try and find a similar spring and hopefully a better vendor. www.raptorsupplies.com/pd/associated-spring-raymond/305304d
anyone have any luck with this spring
@@tuckerboy10wbo I'm considering buying a bunch in bulk and selling them direct to you guys for a reasonable price... Haven't found anything yet.
I have watched thousands of videos on CZcams I have to say this is the happiest I've ever been smart instructive no dumb music no dumb intro just common sense how to make things work better amazing video thanks dude awesome I found it so I'm trying to tune minds so I can sell it turns out I have his same pipe I see all the things he's doing awesome awesome
Hi Ryan,
Very good description of your clutch modifications. Keep up the good work! Bill S.
Thank you!
Dam bro you wanna do your own Ted talks or Webinars on dirt bikes and engines. Dude you rock for this video
Haha thanks I appreciate it. I hope it helped ya
Fun presentation! If you had to sequence this, what order would you go?
In terms of which modification first? Carb/exhaust. Doesn't make sense to spin the clutch if the engine isn't making any power up there. Plus you might adjust the clutch to your desired RPM and then add the carb/pipe later and suddenly it make a lot more power throwing your clutch way out of whack, or it might never actually lock up. It's really pretty trivial to throw in the springs though for a minor improvement.
Good stuff.
Thank you.
What is your review on the little KTM? I was given an ‘04 KTM 50 complete. But froze. Is it worth fixing? Parts availability good?
Your thoughts?
Thanks
Mini or junior/full size? air cooled or water cooled?
All the original suspension needs to be done. Mandatory. On the mini adventure the rear is a crimped unit, non rebuildable, once it goes it's done. Pick up a rear shock from a 2009+. Rebuildable. IDK about the bigger models 02-08 rear rebuildability or suitability. The fronts on ours got race tech cartridge emulators. HUGE improvement. Can't recommend riding without them. We saw a lot of head shake and sketchiness on the front end before we did the front suspension. Lesson learned. The suspension for the front isn't too expensive for what you get. I got the complete rear off ebay from a 2017, not too expensive.
Air cooled is a lot slower even with all the bolt on parts like I have in the video. You'll never get the power out of the air cooled cylinder like the water cooled. The exhaust port on the air cooled is a large single compared to the large triple exhaust port on the water cooled. The water cooled cylinder has bigger transfers as well. The exhaust port height is 5mm higher on the water cooled cylinder. I know because I actually just recently finished the build on converting Anna's mini from air cooled to water cooled. It's SO MUCH FASTER. It pulled a wheelie under me when I was testing it out. Clutch stall RPM went from 10,000 rpm to 10,800 rpm just by having more torque. I may have to do a video on the water cooled conversion. It's really tricky on the mini, not much room. SO worth it. Way faster, that thing rips off the gate.
At the end of it all with the upgrades it's lighter than the modern KTM 50 mini, very comparable power wise with the recent water cooled upgrade. All in, parts and everything, it's WAY cheaper than buying a used 2009+ KTM mini(really should focus 2013 and newer for the newer clutch, the 09-12 have an enlarged version of the shoe clutch like what I built, but it should take the disc clutch from the newest generations no problem... well, except $$$). The 02-08 has drums which is not ideal but it's been working fine for us. It's not really easy at all to lock the rear for sliding into corner purposes. I haven't seen my daughter do it with her drums, have seen her do it as a very young 4 year old when she was still racing her Oset(disc brakes).
A bit lighter than the modern bike, dwindling if not gone aftermarket performance parts support(main problem is getting a pipe), when water cooled it's a bat outta hell. If you like working on bikes and want to build it power wise little by little as they grow, worth it. DO THE SUSPENSION FIRST THING. The bottom end and transmission side of the 02-08 is WAY simpler than the modern bikes, way easier to work on. With the 2013+ clutch you can de tune the power delivery big time at the expense of burning your multi hundred dollar clutch plates, they come stock for the earlier years with a 12mm carb. With the 02-08 clutch shoes are like $30. I haven't had to touch my clutch at all with about 45 hours of HARD constant slipping abuse at 10k+ rpm(oil changes still needed). Really with a fast 2013+ clutch you don't have to touch them either... unless you run them really slow on the stall speed for a learner.
It's a good bike. If you want to race it you have to get it into racing condition. It's not competitive air cooled even with all the bolt ons... unless you send out the air cooled cylinder for a 60cc bore, but you may have to trim the bottom end cases a tad... which is easier since the bottom end is so simple to take apart. It would take a cylinder expert with the right tools to port a steel air cooled cylinder... even then you don't have the triple exhaust.
There are trade offs. Do the suspension. If you fix and flip you might get $1k for it depending on the market. Maybe you can get away with running it air cooled for half a year with a pipe, clutch, and 19mm carb as they learn.... then sell it for a cobra jr or a 50 mini with a lift kit. You'd probably come out ahead with about ~$500 in upgrades then selling it used.
Hey boss doesn’t really have anything to do with your video but you said you did this on an old mini adventure ? Where do you get your parts from for it I can’t find parts really anywhere besides like a piston and crappy aftermarket clutch pads? Just want to be able to find stuff for when they brake just bought my son a 2006 mini adventure and want to get it right.
Hey man no worries. I use the exploded parts views to find parts. The big store near me, Chaparral, has a great OEM section to their website. It'll list out every single original part and its part number. Note, some part numbers will say "superceded by xxxx" etc. Anyways, you can use the exploded views to find everything. Once you get the original KTM factory part number you can search google or ebay for the part number to see if anyone else has it cheap. Chaparral is usually very cheap.
www.chapmoto.com/oem/ktm/50-adventure-mini/?year=2005
Good luck!
I have a 2005 and KTM World in Georgia has a reliable supply of the stock parts.
Got the carb you linked to, but forgot to order jets. It runs a whole lot better than it did with the stock carb but as you could imagine still not great. When I look for the parts you referenced there are multiple options. Idle Jet shows 45, 48, 50, 52, and 55 available. Needle Jet shows 260 and 262. Any advise on which size to get? For reference I'm at 1300ft.
I went to Chaparral's website and punched in 2008 KTM 50 sx. I went tot he carburetor diagram. www.chapmoto.com/oem/ktm/sx-50
when I expand the picture and click the jets I think it gives the stock values. I get 45 idle. 260 needle jet. 60 start jet. 80 main jet. W9 Jet Needle. and the 60 slide. You will have to figure it out yourself though. Hopefully the stock values are a good starting point though.
@@theshippingcontainergarage Thank you!
Hi, as I understand, you use 445lb/in springs, which in metric units is 8kg/mm or approximately 75N/mm. My question is - how long you cut them? Space between clutch shoe and its bolt head is 13mm. So the spring should be same length? Or little bit longer to get some pretension? Thanks for answering, greetings from Latvia!
Hi there!
Original spring is 20mm long.
I cut the red stiff die spring to 22mm length so there is some pre tension.
Longer red spring would make higher stall RPM but it will be harder to engage the bolt threads. Shorter red spring makes a lower stall RPM but easier to engage the bolt threads.
When you mill the bottom of the clutch shoe there is more chance for thread engagement so it's easier to catch because the clutch shoe bottom is closer to the threaded steel part.
@@theshippingcontainergarage can I ask your opinion about our clutch setup?
czcams.com/video/3yA1amCkqgk/video.htmlfeature=shared
It does not run so good as I would, there are washer stacks at the moment, but I am confused at the moment do I have to pretension them or opposite.. unfortunately I do not have a tacho to measure the rpms, but it sounds like 7-8krpm.
We have 19mm carb and sxs pipe
I really want to try die hard springs, but I have to wait for delivery.
@@krisjanisgalins451 It sounds like about 8k rpm to my ear. There might be something else going on that's limiting power. 8k rpm on the clutch is slow but it shouldn't be that slow. I think the biggest problem is that the Husky Boy has the ANCIENT Morini motor.
Pull the muffler off and try running it(isolate any muffler problems). Double check the air filter. Check the spark plug color and make sure your main jet isn't too rich/lean. Was it a brand new, clean pipe? if it's a used pipe make sure the internals are clean. If it's dirty and caked up inside clean it. Make sure the rear sprocket isn't too small(too much top speed). Are the brakes dragging at all?
Beyond the easy external things you need to start looking inside the cylinder at the porting on that motor. You should also check bore diameters and check for blow by around the piston rings. That cylinder might be worn out.
I found a husky boy cylinder on Ebay and I can see the ports in the pictures. They are really poorly designed for making power. www.ebay.com/itm/363803319394
I don't think you will get much, if any, power from that cylinder design.
My recommendation is to save up your money for something newer and larger. Your kid is looking too big for the Husky Boy.
This video is amazing and everything I neded
I'm glad I could help!
Hello! What oil do you use on that clutch? And quantity please. Thank you!
Hey there, I use Shell Rotella T6. It's a diesel oil but it meets the JASO MA2 spec. I use about 250cc I think.
Thanks for informative video! What would you say is the next best approach? My son has a ktm 50 senior adventure, getting a lc exhaust and 19mm carb is very expensive here, figured I could do some clutch work, whats some good spring without having to sand it down? Thanks!
Did you check the link from Moped Division in my description for the 19mm carb? It's US $120. It's really not hard to cut the spring down. Nobody makes a 22mm die spring, much less a 22mm round wire spring stiff enough to do the job. I recommend the red die spring I used in my video. I suppose you could order a custom made die spring but that will take a lot of time and not be cheap.
You could always find a good speed shop that knows how to build exhaust pipes and have them make you one.
I guess cutting them down will be easy, I'll have to sand it down by hand as I have no machine.
How do you fit a LC pipe on a senior adventure? Seems to be another fitting.
Can you run a 19mm carb without the LC pipe? Just Bolt on and go? 120usd seems fair if it works with just the carb then ill go that route as a start!
Thanks!
@@dixon266 For cutting the springs I use a cutoff wheel on a grinder. A hacksaw and judicious sanding to bring it to flat could in theory work, probably a lot easier than just sanding the whole thing by itself.
I personally haven't tried the combination of LC pipe on senior adventure. I don't have that combo and probably won't have that combo anytime soon... or ever.
We ran the 19mm carb on the stock mini adventure pipe for awhile. The 19mm carb is MUCH better in pretty much every way. So much easier to tune. The 12/14's run super rich in my experience.
Best of luck!
eBay has bootleg 19mm dellorto Phgb carbs literally a cloned copy in quality and in design for 20-30 dollars. Trust me I’ve been using it and It works great.
@@WestHaddnin I had a really bad time messing with a friends bike with a knock off carb. Went through every single thing to get it to run and the thing refused. Slapped on the stocker from Moped Division with the right jets and it ran perfect immediately.
As for the dye spring you grinded down to 22mm? Total length
Yep that's correct. Too long and it'll bind on itself.
You are amazing sir! Rebuilding a ktm 50cc mini adventure now and it just will not hit band at all I am changing all of the usual stuff, but I know the last owner installed a new clutch but I think the springs are to weak!
Hey there I'm glad this was helpful. It's very likely the clutch.
Assuming there's nothing else mechanically wrong.. Here's some oddball stuff to check.
Don't forget to check the spark arrestor! If it's clogged it won't go. Try it without the muffler for kicks.
Pull the expansion pipe and clean it out with gasoline or other very aggressive solvent/degreaser. If it's been ran rich for years it can build up a ton of unburnt oil and if it never was ridden on the power band it'll never get hot enough to burn off.
Fresh oil makes a minor difference, try that. When you drain the oil out you can use diesel in the clutch/transmission side and run it for like 15-20 seconds to splash it around and it'll really clean out the entire transmission side. Drain it out and overfill to like 220cc's. I use Rotella T6, it's cheap, meets spec, lasts.
It's possible someone in the past added or removed or used alternative thickness gaskets on the head or I the cylinder which can change compression and rpm for the power band. Check there. See what the spec is on the SX model from 02-08 and run that.
For upgrades...
First:
Switch to the 19mm carb. So much better for making power and so much easier to tune.
Second:
My clutch mods
Third:
Pipe
1 and 2 can/should be concurrent. No idea if the stock 12mm carb can allow the engine to spin to 10k rpm.
@@theshippingcontainergarage I really do appreciate the advice I am new to these bikes and will be sure to check all of the above. I have new reeds coming because these ones were bad, new top end kit with gaskets and also a new small end bearing I don’t think the bike was fixed properly and a cheap clutch is on there for sure But would that cause it not to hit band also?
I have checked all the electrics and they check on perfectly on the meter it’s just a checking game with everything else.
Your channel is going to do amazing keep up the good work! I was doing a welding channel but it gets so busy and stressful I gave up
@@theshippingcontainergarage also last question what mix do you find the best for the fuel to oil ratio ?
Thanks a lot! Set the bike on the stand and run it at different throttle positions. When I had mine originally the spark screen was clogged and it had the 12mm carb. It was running extremely rich on the micro carb. At half throttle it revved out better than full throttle.
I run about 40:1. Manual calls for 60:1. The leaner you go the less parts last. You will probably get exhaust spooge though.
@@theshippingcontainergarage I have taken out the spark arrestor and mine is just a straight hollow pipe with holes but does have a lot of oil build up and the padding is soaking with black oil!
Last last last question I am trying to convert the springs from inches to metric if I am correct is 16x25 the springs I am looking for?
Sorry for being a pain!
What clutch blocks are those they look aggressive ?
Are you asking about the clutch shoes? They are stock KTM shoes but they are cut down and drilled as per the instructions in the video.
Hi I've done the clutch modification and it has made my daughter's bike abit better but I seriously think it is carb related what was the name of the carb you used and what jet sizes did you use
100% don't use that 12mm carb. Get the 19mm. www.mopeddivision.com/part-type-newest-items/air-fuel-intake/dellorto-19mm-phbg-bs-carburetor-pull-choke-new-model/
I followed the jet sizing for a 2008 KTM 50 SX and it's been perfect so far. That's the water cooled race bike that had the 19mm carb stock. I don't remember the numbers off hand but you can easily look that up. I think the stock jets that come with the carb will be really close.
Wood a 21mm. Carb be ok of a 2020 KTM 50 sx with 2008 jets in it
The 2020 50 sx shipped with a PHBG 19 BS. That's the 19mm carb. The 21mm is an aftermarket option and not class legal for most race series. If you have an air cooled cylinder I highly doubt the 21mm carb will help performance. The air cooled cylinder is exhaust port area and intake transfer port area limited, performance wise. It is also limited in exhaust duration... power wise. A bigger throat on the carb may actually hurt performance for an air cooled cylinder.
If your 08 cylinder is water cooled the 21mm may help performance. I think the 21mm carb is usually used for the 60cc kit. If the 2020 you pulled the carb from had the 60cc kit the jets will be WAY off for water cooled 50cc. If the 2020 bike had a 50cc displacement and the carb was tuned by someone that knew what they were doing the 21mm is probably pretty close and may just work out of the box for the water cooked 2008 cylinder. The 08 water cooled and modern cylinders are pretty similar.
Any time you carb swap to non standard equipment you WILL have to tune the carb jets for your unique application.
You could try calling nihilo concepts maybe they have a easy answer for you.
Do you have any of the links for anything else? Carb etc
My bad I meant to include that in the description. Here it is. I'll update the description as well. www.mopeddivision.com/part-type-newest-items/air-fuel-intake/dellorto-19mm-phbg-bs-carburetor-pull-choke-new-model/
I should add don't forget to match stock jetting and start from there. The jets that come in the package aren't the standard KTM jets. I think the slide cut is sometimes different as well.
Hello mate. You drill otherside the clutch??
Sorry bud, I don't have any idea of what you mean by the "otherside the clutch". What you see in the video is what you get.
I see on front i mean rear.
@@Kryspin699 Tell me what time? for example 01:15 points to 1 minute and 15 seconds.
Other side 1:15. You drill front i mean rear.
And tell diameter drill. Thanks
Does this make it adult rideable
Haha, I've actually raced this bike once in a just for fun dad's mini race.
Can I buy the stock pipe?
Man... Unfortunately I'm a serial parts hoarder. I always hang onto parts since someday it might be useful... maybe for a different project. Sorry bud.
Has anyone found a good place to order the springs from yet?
eBay bro
Raymond die hard springs 305308D
I just checked that part number you ordered. The part number you ordered are 2 inches long and have a spring rate of 210.7 lb/in. That's really soft compared to the 445.4 lb/in 305304D springs I used. No wonder you had trouble. These will probably work but you HAVE TO cut them down to the 20 to 22mm length. They will not have the 9k-10k rpm lockup though. It'll probably be high 7k-8k rpm with those weak springs. Not a bad lock but not great.
Broooo I’m bummmed. I just tried this and it didn’t work. Took forever to get the springs to catch the threads but I did it and it’s not engaging now. What did I do wrong?
Hey bro I just replied to the other comment you left to someone else. I saw you preferred the wrong part number and used a really weak spring that is 2 inches long. That weak spring will work if you cut it to the correct 20-22mm length and grind the paint off so it seats fully. But it's not going to have a 9k-10k rpm lockup. If you make them too long they will bind up on themselves and they won't be able to move period. What length did you cut them to?
16x8x25?
Found springs on ebay that are a lot cheaper. Just trying to figure exact size. Thanks for this vid lol
@@zshan1895 My bad sorry for the late reply. The link below is the spring I used. It's an imperial sized spring but if you can find a die spring that is close to the same spring rate and dimensions you should be fine. The main limit is total length, and rod diameter.
There isn't much difference between 16x8x25 between the imperial size on the grainger link below. You still have to cut the 25 down to 22mm or lower.
5/8 diameter, rod size 11/32in, Length 1 inch.
www.grainger.com/product/RAYMOND-Die-Spring-Heavy-Duty-44V164
@@zshan1895 Have you had any luck with spring from ebay?
@@tuckerboy10wbo I also want to know... I couldn't find the Raymond springs on Ebay. Tucker, let me know what you end up doing.
@@theshippingcontainergarageBroo I’ve been trying hella hard to leave comments but the algorithm keeps deleting my shit fml. Im installing the ones I got today everything is the same but it’s 2 inches instead of 1 inch.
Its like 300$ for those red spings though.
Jesus... I've never seen Grainger do this. They increased the minimum quantity required from 1 pack of 10 for $31.10 to buying 10 packs of 10 each at $28.52... Meaning $285.20 is the minimum amount and then you are stuck with 100 springs... Ridiculous. I'll try and find a replacement vendor.
@@theshippingcontainergarage I just got some on eBay for 15 bucks
@@WestHaddnin You must have found the last ones I can't find red RAYMOND 305304D springs on ebay.
Anyone buy a bunch of springs
And want to sell 3??? Haha