Use your mix bus like a rubber band
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- čas přidán 14. 07. 2024
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Does your mix ever feel out of control, or like it's going to fall apart if you change something? You're not alone - this comes up often when I'm talking to and teaching up-and-coming engineers.
In this video, I'll explain why this is usually a problem of too much mix bus processing. I'll also show how I use the mix bus and some examples in action. - Hudba
"Always mix like there's no mastering" It's what this video reminded me, and tbh I agree even though bottom-up mixing is actually harder, it feels more satisfying.
I would definitely say don’t leave headroom unless you have full intention of sending it out to be mastered by somebody else. Or if your song naturally isn’t loud, don’t make it louder because somebody told you that’s the right thing to do. As long as it sounds good, you’re doing something right 🙌
@@Bittamin i know an artist called Elaine Walker who always mixed her songs, and she actually sent her mixes to mastering engineers but she always couldn't bear the compression. She simply settled down to uploading normalized uncompressed mixes that keep the transients and it sounds great! I'm applying this same thing to my music, it's electronic but I like my drums and instruments to have very big transients, and just some parallel distortion on the master for fizzle, but else it's really not that loud. Except it sounds really big when you listen to it :]
The mix “always feels like it is on edge.”
That is such a great way to articulate what I feel like is a very common space for a lot of people to be in
cripes man... it's like you're in my studio looking over my shoulder... your tips always seem super timely and helpful... at least to my particular phase of the learning journey... thanks!
This is great. I just checked my latest mix and it was set up very similar (I think without me even realizing how much the subtle improvement helped). This really enforced that knowledge. Thanks for the vid.
Great video! Mixing INTO the comp really is the key.
I was a console preamp/comp only guy for mixing into the 2-Bus for years, but recently I've been really liking the full top-down approach. I've added a few Scheps ideas and I feel like my mixes are much better. Only downside is, you eat up a bit more CPU from the start, so you do need a decent rig, if you want to be able to finish a mix without having to bounce stems to save power.
Excellent video Jordan. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience. Always appreciated -- dig that TBS song btw!
I’ve been taking the bottom up approach and didn’t even think about the difference until hearing this video. For me, the bus should just be some slight tweaks to volume for a given bus. I don’t really do any effects, except maybe a drum room reverb or something. The rest should be on the tracks for me.
Great advice and often I feel like this is a problem for me. Now I just have to learn how to do a lot of the stuff with the individual tracks or buses and not in master.
I definitely do too much mix bud processing. Next mix I’m gonna go for this method for sure.
I dunno if it's just the way I learned top-down mixing, but I always saw it as a process of setting your levels first, then just treat the mix bus with some subtle EQ and compression to get things a bit glued together to begin with and then work through each instrument with that lens over everything and importantly, processing a track in solo only when there's a specific problem you're addressing and spending 95% of your time listening to the whole mix through that mix bus treatment.
Maybe that's not "true" top-down mixing but it's an approach that I've found really works well for me and honestly I just don't see how starting out with a ton of stuff on your mix bus and then trying to get your individual tracks to work with that complex signal chain would ever work, particularly in a rock/metal context.
Great video and analogy with the examples. Definitely agree with you and prefer working this way
Nice analogy! Well explained mate.
Nice, always liked your studio videos. But it wasn't until I followed the Pro Production Course that all these small video you make really landed!!
Thumbs up for Goatse imagery. Also great advice as always brother 🤘🏻
nice advise by Jordan as always, thanks mate!
My favourite tutorial to master bus. Thank you
I loooove taking back Sunday 🎉🎉 awesome information,
Great video Jordan, some dumb comments down here just wanted to drop in and say thanks as always
Tnx Jordan, great video! I was wondering what to do with this mix bus (so far only used a daw to work out ideas, but now want to make 'em sound good as well), but thanks to your analogy I now know.😀
I use the CLA mix bus plugin it has a big of eq on there as well and some saturation. the bus comp there might do 0.5-1 but no more than 2db of comp. I also us wavs NLS bus and a couple of compressors doing almost nothing but they just sound good the dolby DBX from waves is one and the puigchild compressor. doing maybe half a db each. Long story short, if I take it all away, it does make a fair difference, but it just seems to really be easier to mix into as it just gets everything up there right off the bat and means less to do on many things. Waves L3 multi only when sending mixes to clients.
dude your videos are wonderful ❤
Thanks Jordan 👍
Great video, great song, great mix!
I think on a console little is required e.g on an old Neve just drive the mix hard into saturation, and at most a comp but really the saturation gives you that on a Neve, and a Api. With an ssl yeah comp for sure. Other boards similar would be much the same, tho it must be a great board to put your final mix on or there’s no point hey!
But yeah in daw world it’s difficult because to get the same idea working that’s easy on a console, is more plug-in required ITB this is where using a console at least if only for final mix down or stems at least takes care of everything and gives a better quality of audio summing than software can do no doubt.
I think it’s very possible to do it all in daw but yeah as you say easy to get stuck adding lots of plug-ins to get the desired effect, so it becomes very much a measured decision.
To be able to just have a few things going on, like you have there, is perfect! 💯
Can I tell you something. You could also use different compressors on different parts and then chop them up and then mix them all back in together and use one more compressor to glue it so that certain parts get a certain touch
I think there is a place for top-down mixing, especially in pop genres where the producer mix is 90% there and you are basically mastering it (and want to be making subtle changes into your chain) but I agree that for rock/live type stuff, bottom up is the way to go!
I'm going to quote this, that actually makes sense why you would top down mix
I'm a pretty versatile producer, a half decent bedroom recording engineer, and a damn good song writer with a ear for music. If I only could sing like a star...I'd probaly he one. But honestly most of the time I have to strain my ears hear any difference when it comes to the subtleties of this type of mixing/mastering. I know it's important but the differences sound miniscule to me. Maybe my hearing has suffered from enjoying so much great music over the years(worth it if so!! Lol). Hats off to those who a good at it.
I guess I'm more focused on how well a song is written than if it's 100% perfectly engineered. Back in the days of reel to reel the mixing was horrible by today's standards, but the classic songs still sound great and hold the test of time. If a song is good, and is mixed with even a ounce of common sense, that's all you need. If the music is good, a sub par mix will usually go unnoticed to the average listener. On the other hand, getting a world class mix and master job isnt going to help you one bit if the record is no good.
There are some genres were the sound matters a lot. Heavy music is an example of this.
King
Great advice thank your for this Jordan. It seems everyone does this crazy shit these days…
Keeping it simple !!
TY!
One quick correction if I'm allowed, the Slate Digital FG adds some saturation too so it does change slightly the overall tone ;)
Yes, bottom up!
🙌
awesome advice as usual your my man - since watching your instructional content my mixes are way better yourself CLA & Steven Slate are my main guys - I use the same plug ins as you on my master buss - anyone who does not have the Slate all access pass (get it) and various waves plugins - stick with them keep it consistent mixing is fun like it should be - Peace
Yessir , I am doing same thing as you !!
Top Down Mixing made popular by Graham Cochrane of Recording Revolution
Definitely one of the main ones but I’d say Nolly Getgood is the biggest influencer of Top Down especially in the more modern metal producers/mixers. You only have to go through a handful of mix tutorials and you’ll come across ones that will directly name him and his nail the mix/ggd courses. Different strokes for different folks as long as you understand why your doing it and the effect it has.
@@gsharman1989 I've watched many of his tutorials on Nail The Mix and CreativeLive. He is a great mixer.
@@gsharman1989 nolly is amazing.
His work with periphery is amazing especially P3, but after that i don't really like it sounds too compressed especially on PIV
There are a quite a few mix engineers that work top down, I also do. As long as you don't go overboard with what's on your mix bus you should not run into problems. For me, some gentle saturation after the mix bus compressor feels natural. Just like a tape machine did in the old days. 😍
Graham Cochran from Recording Revolution is big on top down mixing. That where I learned it from.
Mixing into a mastering chain is really common in EDM genres, probably because the the amount of synthesis and processing during sound design, which bleeds into the mixing, and the mastering. I guess it's easy to look at everything as sound design when you work with synths every day.
but if you’re paying a pro mastering engineer to master your stuff, this ruins the engineers ability to really do anything to help the mix. but of course it’s fine if you’re mastering yourself.
thanks for great video:)
Yes, this was a lesson I learned the hard way - from years of trial and error. The logic and reality helps and it's very simple - control, effects, tonality and character is best expressed at the part level - not the track, but the part - so, the verse vocal, or the prechorus, or the guitar solo. The bus is just for a little bit of glue. However - here's a total reversal of that idea - I hear CLA say one time that he put "as little compression as he could get away with". I (incorrectly) assume he meant not much compression on the mix bus. But that's not what he said. Since then I've seen reference mixes of his, and I've seen him hit a bus compressor for 4-5 db of gain reduction. I have personally mixed tracks where I had an SSL compressor doing 2-3 db of gain reduction, and simply couldn't get the sound I wanted without another compressor after some light boosting EQ. The point is - always think about fundamentals, but always work for the sound in your head. And I am just now at the point where I can just produce, and not do a lot of work thinking about technique. Accept the Journey as this channel says. It never ends.
This is an S tier comment regarding mixing that I didn't know I needed until I tried this
Okay, I'm gonna give it another shot because my mixes sound EXACTLY like the "wild" version you played here sans mix bus compression. Gave up on master bus processing a while ago, but maybe I was using the wrong compressor...
as a mastering engineer there is nothing more aggravating than mixes with too much processing piled on the mix bus. sometimes i have to ask clients to remove their limiter 😐
I always ask do that. Don't cook in my kitchen 😊
I mix into a limiter to get an idea of how limiting/mastering will affect my transients, but then remove it when it's off to mastering because that ain't my job and a mastering engineer knows better than me
hmmm... what about a mixed way of mixing?
looking from the top in a mix bus, and doing the just the minimal there?
identifying what instrument/track causes the problem, through mute certain tracks and solve the problem on the track itself rather than on mix bus?
that way we get the best of both worlds, the praticity and velocity of a top down approach, and the control of bottom up approach
I start projects with all faders at -10 db and pan and level everything without any plugin. If my master / mixbus is between -3 to -6 db everything is in control. No need to engage a lot in the mixbus. Sometimes I put ozone on it to bounce the mix to have an idea what the final result might Sound. Then I Bypass it in the mix again.
To my ear the mixbus compresor gives some microscopic movemet to the mix, witch makes it more interesting for the listener. Maybe it's only me, but that's te way I hear it anyway.
IMO, the rubber band effect you're mentioning is the cohesive consequence of the specific dark warm saturation of this compressor. By adding those same harmonics to the whole signal; the whole song sounds more alike and characteristics of the harmonics make it a tad darker so less fatiguing, it's more of a paint analogy IMO than a rubber band effect cause no dynamics change is really involved (apart from a db or two).
This particular Waves SSL Bus Compressor model is pretty clean actually. What makes it darker is relatively long auto release and the way compressor catches lows. So, it catches kick, lets a little bit of it through, and then clamps down with release on cymbals/vocals/guitars. In other words - it's pumping. But it's musical pumping because compressor's design is feed-back. Focusrite RED Compressor that CLA uses is feed-forward, but it doesn't react to the low-end as much and saturates more. So, the way you desribed it applies to CLA and his RED Compressor. This SSL one is actually messing with dynamics quite a lot (duh, it's 4:1 ratio).
Another great video Jordan and an important one for newbie's like myself just getting started. A question for you my friend. At what point do you engage the bus compressor during the mixing process. Is it on from the start, before you actually start working with the individual tracks or do you get 80, 90, 100 percent done with the tracks then turn it on for balance and glue? I've tried top down mixing and for me it does not work. Please advise and thanks for another great video.
I put the compressor on pretty early, but not right at the beginning. I'll do some really basic processing and balance, get it about 1/3 of the way there, and then put the compressor on. But at that point it's not doing much... as I keep building the mix it starts doing more, usually ending up at 2-4db GR at the end.
The metaphor I was taught for the mix bus is a soup bowl. Imagine all of the instruments as different ingredients in a soup and there's only so much space in the bowl before it starts to spill.
Hi JV, checking in on you, great video. I see more guitars in your frame. Are you composing these days?
No disrespect to who mixed this song originally but your mix is a lot cleaner and more exciting, I mean wow
i fucking love you man...
This is 100% true
how does this translate from the mixbus to the mastering stage? generally I master in the same project.
Nice video ones more! Question is do you print the mix with these plugins on master buss when sending to Mastering? Thank you Jordan
Yes
I've always wondered how to increase volume like automation on bass , wouldn't that push the compressor and change the overall sound of the mix? Still learning lol
Great video! I've seen some engineers who recommended trying to add your, say, SSL bus compressor on first before anything and mix basically backwards into that. Is this just a scenario of "multiple ways to skin a cat?" Or would this actually help?
Say you don't have those two plugins. What would you use as a substitute on your mix bus.?
well if you mix the loudest part to hit the mix bus properly all your moves backwards should not be an issue, Top down mixing does require a bit of order of operations, maybe different from working from the ground up but I would think not?
I feel like theres always 2 release settings I see people use on GBus comp... Either fastest release or auto release. Curious if you tend to use auto or if it always changes depending on the material?
Top down seems to be more Tom Elmhirst and Shawn Everett - even Serban Ghenea.
So, gain stage, add ssl bus comp, limiter on post? Then..balance tracks with no plug ins, then eq, comp process individual tracks? What about the for ex: drum bus, vocal bus, bass buss? Do you process those before individual tracks within the bus??
You know how to mix and master music. Why you don't mix YT video to match voice level and music level ?
when we say “mix bus” are we talking about like the master/output channel or just busses in general?
Thanks a lot for your videos!
BTW, I'm considering to buy either SSL from Waves, or API 2500 from UAD. What would you recommend? I need a buss compressor for live-streaming a worship band.
So, maybe hardware usage of both of these plug-ins should be considered as well ...
Nice video! Jordan! A question. Do you remove the bus comp before you send the song into mastering? Or do you leave it on?
What's the point in mixing into a mix bus compressor if you take it off?
@@jones1749 😂 yes!
I wonder about the part where the Waves SSL comp makes the guitars sound lower..... I wonder if it's not sooo much the compression doing that, but I've felt that the SSL comp tends to make mixes a little less wide. And since guitars are usually fairly hard panned/wide, it might just be the character of the SSL comp doing that and not the compression. Thoughts?
It can definitely be both. Compressors can also saturate. I like using the PA and IK ones. The PA Townhouse has more saturation and a low end bump, IK one pretty clean.
that's what I am hearing, too.
Out of curiosity. What amplifier or setup do you use for your Yamaha NS-10? Came across a pair so I’m thinking about buying them.
Is this typical to tracking 3 rythm Guitars LCR and double track the leads looks like it's label dark and regular for contrast
People top down mix because Nolly does it and what he does is gospel.
Nothing anyone does is gospel
I think it’s much easier to top down mix when you’re getting a song recorded in a nice studio. For everyone recording in bedroom studios and stuff it just doesn’t make a lot of sense
Nolly mixed Empath by Devin Townsend. It IS gospel 😅
What if you mixing a song without drums? In my case, the song is just piano, main vox, and some harmony vox here and there. Do you still want 2-4 dB of gain reduction with the SSL Mix Buss Compressor?
Hi Jordan, how are you?
Wouldn't this compression be a process inherent to mastering?
Mastering really is a very different process, often using similar tools. This is mix buss processing.
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d.a.w seem like everyone should mix at odb imo there is no headroom when ya mix like that i master outside d.a.w n lot under
when I think of top down I think of Nolly 100%
I just… don’t use the mix bus. I put span and youlean loudness meter on it and call it a day. Maybe pro L but that’ll be for a minute to hear what it sounds like mastered. When I go to master the song, then i use the mix bus
2:30 here is the key. We all can write this in the wall! I learned this late after many mistakes and pain. Now i do a sub-mix aux. This way i can set the ievel of signal sent to final processing. The master bus i use just for levels and tiny adjustments to give more expression and polishment at the very end. but never to correct things, except Mv2 i use to “flatten the curve” in orchestra music (even though this can bring noise if the samples are not clean 🧼)
Literally what I’m doing wrong haha
IMO this music does not want a nice soft barrier and I feel the mix bus compressor squashed it too much and sucked out the life.
make it sound good from the source?
But you gotta make it loud in current year.
Man this should be about compression not a mix buss
Top down mixing became a mainstream approach when Nolly started talking about it. His demographic mainly consists of the amateurs/novices, and the people who highly look up to him regardless of their skill level, which unfortunately is a lot of people. Don't get me wrong, I love his work and a lot of things he talks about, but it's the fact that everyone who is new or still learning a lot about mixing is so wrapped around his finger, they see his methods as "well Nolly does it, so I'm doing it wrong if I'm not doing it like him.", without being aware that everyone needs their own approach and what works for him won't usually work for you. Again, I appreciate Nolly as a musician and engineer, but him, as well as the GGD team, are responsible for this huge wave of inferior productions and boring, stale sounding mixes that all sound the same no matter who mixed it. I mean it's really become this generation's SSD/PodFarm. I know I sound like an old fart lol but that's just why this this method has become a thing.
I think top down mixing applications have their place when you know how to use it properly, but that's the thing, most people don't know how to use it, leading to the examples mentioned in the video.
That all being said, this was a reminder that I use too much mix bus processing myself. I don't use a top down approach, but in my early days of mixing back when the Sneap forum was THE source, I was taught that you almost need to have compression and eq on the mix bus to glue everything together and give it that "sparkle". Even though I subconsciously know that to be false, I just automatically do it, then wonder why when I bypass the mix bus chain, it sounds better. But my brain still tells me "don't render it without turning on the mix bus chain". I gotta get out of that habit.
Couldn’t disagree more and I think you’re highly overestimating his influence on the mixing community as a whole
Guitars loud? It's all kick and snare. Guitars sound like pads. People are mixing drums too loud this time around.
You mix into this? Why do mofos put bloody two or even three compressors on the vocals
only amateurs do top down mixing
Like Tchad Blake?
His mixbus processing is super heavy and changes the mix to the point where the feel changes completely.
Funny that you cover this topic... I listen as I assemble some furniture...
...And you turn around and have the audacity to BLAST OUT MY HOME RECEIVER with your project audio, in contrast to your spoken vocals.
#Professional_Audio_is_for_ALL_media_platforms
#Level_Your_Outputs
Just saying. (Shrug)
Again? Looks like you're running out of video ideas.
Mm u talk too much bout what y feeling just give advice and the tips