Will my chainsaw last longer if I use more oil? Is it safer? (25:1 VS 50:1 temperature testing)
Vložit
- čas přidán 10. 07. 2021
- Hey Everyone!
Some say its a good idea to run more oil in your small engine to provide more lubrication to the piston and cylinder... and others say that excessive amounts of oil can cause a two stroke engine to run lean and over heat.
There has been a lot of debate around this topic... so I took it into my own hands to conduct a test to put this issue to rest. All temperatures mentioned are in degrees Celsius (C).
LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK!!!!
With my Stihl MS260 and two different oil mixtures (25:1 and 50:1) I conducted a three part test to get to the bottom of this debate. This test would have the same results on any small two stroke engine, be it a trimmer, blower, chainsaw or others from Stihl, Echo, Husqvarna and more.
For me, I'll likely continue to mix my fuel at 45:1, just as my good buddy @donyboy73 has always suggested.
Thanks for watching!
-Dave
![[Vowel]물고기는 물에서 살아야 해🐟🤣Fish have to live in the water #funny](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3G9MH063Cx4/mqdefault.jpg)
I know how long it takes to produce a video like that! Very informative buddy...
Hey Steve! No kidding eh? Thanks for the kind words!!!
thanks for teaching me how to tune a chain saw.
Also chain is sharper on original cuts therefor working harder on second set. Also agree that carb mixture screws are a factor.
@@DavesSmallEngines czcams.com/video/rkoFzuwtbeA/video.html jak to naprawić przepustnica nie otwiera się do końca.....
It's nice to know that Steve is here too =D
You should retune your carburetor after changing to 25-1 ratio. You're putting more oil in and less gas so you have to richen the carb settings to get the same amount of gas into the cylinder. By not making the carb adjustments you are running the saw leaner which causes more heat everytime.
If you make the proper carb adjustments you well gain a bit of power from the extra oil sealing the piston better.
Great video! It certainly shows the need to retune after changing gas/oil ratios.
I was thinking the same thing.
if you change your carb mixture then your adding more gas. therefore negating the baseline. might as well just run 50:1 and be safe. no added benefit here.
@flagulantmichael If you increase the oil in your gas oil mixture, then you have less gas and more oil therfore the need for the carb adjustment in order to get the same amount of gas into the engine. You will use slightly more gas/oil mixture but the same amount of gas.
@@flagulantmichaelthe added benefit is your actually getting enuff lubrication. He took it too far. 40:1 is perfect. Only reason for 50:1 is to meet epa regulations. Take two brand new saws. Run 1 50:1 and run one 40:1. I got a grand on the 40:1 lasting longer
I've logged professionally for over 30 years. I mix 40 to 1 and add 1 iz of marvel mystery oil per gallon of gas and ONLY NON ETHANOL gas. My saws cut 3 to 4 million feet a year with no issues. Good job on the video
That’s pretty good evidence. What oil do you use?!
@@DavesSmallEngines Would be very interesting to see your test done with Scot's mixture. Thanks for the very interesting video BTW!
I can’t find ethanol free gas in my area but I wish I could.
Is the one ounce of Marvel additional to the 40:1 mix or part of it?
40:1 is 3.2 oz of oil to 1 gallon of gas. For one gallon did you add 3.2 oz of oil plus 1 oz of marvle making a total of 4.2 Oz per gallon of gas?
@@Wolf-wf6yx yes. I do my normal mix PLUS an ounce of marvel
I wanted to thank you, DonyBoy and Steve (Steve's Small Engine
Saloon). Because of you guys, I was able to pick up and quickly diagnose
and fix a Husky Rancher 55 for a total of $50. Loving my "new" saw. All
it needed was a thorough cleaning to release a stuck break and fiddling
with the coil to get spark back. Starts and runs great!
Hey Joseph! I have had a couple 55’s…. Awesome saws! Glad to have been of assistance. Thanks for watching!!!
I worked for a Ford New Holland dealership that took on McCulloch chainsaws. The service representative and I had this discussion and what he told me makes 100% sense to me. To much oil has a longer flash point which creates more heat than less oil with a shorter flashpoint. It simply takes longer to burn more oil and makes more heat.
I did enjoy this video which backs this up.
Very well thought out comment
I have a poulan 3400 from 1983 that I run. Manufacture recommends 16:1 ratio! That's what I always ran and never had a problem. Smoked during warm-up, but cleared during sawing. After about 35 yrs I took it apart to put in new rings and the piston and cylinder walls were in perfect shape. The cylinder is NOT chrome or nickasil plated either. Was no ridge on cylinder from ring wear. Most of its life I used Cenex two stroke oil.... my Dad was a manager at a Cenex location.
I don't think more oil makes saw run hotter. If that was the case, my saw would have overheated. My saw ran cool. The carb was adjusted to the mixture it was running. Ran great.
Dealer would always give me hard time. Wanted to sell me new saw every time I stopped in for new chain or bar. Told him I'd buy new saw when my poulan wore out. It's still going and he died waiting.
Hey Todd! That’s great info. I wanted to show a video on the difference if the carb was not adjusted. To make up for the oil increase long term, I would want to make adjustments to the carb. Cheers!
Don't die waiting peeps. Moral of the story. Get your ass better...in all facets of life. You may smoke a little at first, but long with all your heart to run smooth.....chop that wood
The 25 to 1 would perform better if the jetting was correct to the ratio.
I’ve got an old 3400 counter-vibe and it runs fine on 42.5 :1
Salesman “died waiting” for your 3400 to blow.
Nice.
Been using 40:1 ratios on all my equipment, recently the stores have been out of that mixture ratio so I’ve gone to 50: 1 mix now for all my small engine needs. I just purchased a chainsaw on Amazon and it’s stated in the users manual that a mixture of 25:1 was recommended but I was using 50:1 on it, and it had my curiosity as to whether I was damaging my equipment. This video couldn’t have came at a more perfect time and answered my questions. What a great video you put together on the particulars of oil mixtures , well done ! thank you.
Thank you. If you can get the public to understand this you have truly accomplished something. That being said, if you had the ability to richen fuel to air ratio you could get the temperatures back to nearly equal. Since the carb adjustments are pegged or fixed we normally can’t do that. Having worked in the industry I have had a hard time getting public to understand that more oil is not better. With today’s oils wear is not caused by lack of lubrication it is caused by dirt. Air filter maintenance is critical for long life.
Absolutely. Great points. I would suggest running more oil and then altering a perfect carb adjustment for 50:1 to compensate for temperature would be counter productive.
You’re exactly right. Today’s oils are so good. Personally, I’m going to trust the engineering done by Stihl, Husqvarna, Echo etc.
Cheers!
It’s all to do with Emissions,saws will run better with more oil and last longer.
I have an Echo PB-251 hand held blower that I run at least an hour a week and for hours on end in the fall..:since 2008. It starts 3rd pull every time. Original plug and I’ve never removed the air filter. It’s caked with nasty dirt and debris. It’s been abused, knocked over, dropped and ran hot. I’d say it’s lasted a long time. Still going strong too. And I’ve never touched the air filter. I actually just looked at it today for the first time. I sort of just forgot about it. And I’m a believer in good maintenance.
@@SuperJacobe thats not true and the fact that you think so tells me you dont understand anything about modern 2 cycle mix... i mean some of it has to do with emissions, but it mostly has to do with the invention of modern 2 cycle mix which has an extremely high flash point and doesnt burn off as easily as conventional 30w oils that were used when 25:1 was the most common mix ratio... its idiots like you who talk out their ass without knowing a damn thing... CARBON LOADING WILL KILL YOUR SAWS LONG BEFORE MY SAWS DIE OF HEAT
lol, yep, lets get the public to understand horribly flawed data. The carbs were tuned to a 50:1 mix and not 25:1. So yea, the test proved that carbs tuned to 50:1 means a happier engine on 50:1 mix over a 25:1 mix.
40:1 Is the sweet spot !
I’m not sure, Donyboy73 says 45:1
You are correct Greg. We went from 50:1 to 40:1, and we don't replace engines annually at our landscape company. At 50:1, we were tossing equipment out due to low compression.
This is one of those issues that I tell people, but I don't push it on them - because they need to learn on their own. I spent so many years and so many thousands of dollars for our company buying new equipment - and this is a lesson that everyone should learn on their own.
50:1 is NOT ENOUGH oil to properly lubricate these engines, especially when wide open for long, sustained durations. 40:1 is the "sweet spot." A spark plug replacement is cheaper than an engine replacement. We remove all spark arrestor screens on all equipment, since concrete can't catch on fire. We enrichen all carbs by using chinese tools purchased from the internet.
I will never debate this with anyone; We've been doing this for decades. If a worker changes the mixture from 40:1 to 50:1, he is terminated instantly.
We ran 2-stroke racing bikes at all different oil mixtures back in the day. We jetted for the day. The main issue with running the castor bean oil we favored at 16:1 or thicker was fouling spark plugs when you throttled down. Man, this brings back memories.
And you don’t own them today…. Hence .
gotta love that Klotz Benol... i actually prefer the supertechniplate, and its what i run in my saw now... you are right about one thing... castor bean oil definitely needs RPM to burn cleanly
@kevywilliams3304 Hence, your comment doesn't make a bit of sense.
Thank you for doing these test I would have never known
Excellent information. Thank you for taking the time to produce this.
good work I was initially surprised by the result :) a little late to the comments section here but i would say the higher temp is likely due to a leaning of the fuel ratio due to the extra oil. Also, too much oil will cause the needle roller bearings to "skip" or "skid" rather than rolling, this causes wear on your bearings.
Oil technology and metal/machining quality also affect the oil ratios.
Each saw make and model has its own recommended mixtures for a reason :)
The pure lubrication aspect of the oil happens at around 100:1 then there is the cleaning/washing away of contaminants that needs a little more and finally there is a sealing/cushioning component to the oil and you end up at 50:1 - its also a very convenient ratio to mix.
Originally Husqvarna stated that you needed Husqvarna oil at 50:1, other 2stroke oil at 33:1 and monoSAE30 oil at 25:1. Now, many years later the manual reads "air cooled 2stroke oil at 50:1", on all their saws.
Many Chinese saws say 25:1 simply because the tolerances aren't as good and generally the oil quality is unregulated.
It would be interesting to re do the test, re tuning and re plug the saw for the 25:1 and see what happens.
Well laid our format - instant sub from me mate
Damn, finally someone who gets the flaw in this test and resulting data.
Biggest problem is going to be carbon on the piston and exhaust port, but the anti spark shield will block solid far faster with the 25:1.
My anti-spark shields fit nicely in the trash bin.
Thank you for another amazing video Dave! I sure do appreciate all you do to make these videos for us. Have a wonderful week.
Hey Paul! Thanks so much for the kind words. Take care!
With my engineering and mechanic background I have found out a long time ago that a 40 to one mix gives the best lubrication to all the parts in the engine. At 50 to 1 the wrist pin really needs more oil film. Especially at high RPM. The manufactures recommend 50 to 1 to make the EPA a little happier.... As a side note:
When wrenching on small bore 2 stroke dirt bikes its amazing how many rebuilds are due to the owners running 100 to 1 Amsoil... Just my experience. I recommend at least 40 to 1.
I'll stick to what Stihl says
@@devlinsemmler8236 Stihl, like all manufactures is under EPA pressure to recommend 50 to 1. It's not for engiine longevity so much as it is to satisfy emissions standards.
I run 40to1 also in all my stihl equip.been doin it for years i agree with you. Never had an engine failure also run 93 octane gas.
@@zackeryeckenrod6549 Anytime I tore down an engine that ran 50 to 1, I noticed upon inspection the wrist pin especially does not get quite enough lubrication. Yep 40 to 1 is the way to go. Screw the EPA.
I’ve always used 50:1 in my Stihl equipment 100% Stihl standard oil (Blue) which I still can buy outside of Stihl dealers in Australia as superseded to the Red colour, never has a problem never changed a spark plug only the arrester was blocked once on my FS55 my FS85 okay.
Arresters are bad in Home 3
FS 38 -45 due to home users not using full throttle, and really they wouldn’t.
That was a great video! It was clearly obvious in the video that the saw lost power when using 25:1 mix. You could not only hear it in the sound of the engine, but visually it was noticeably slower cutting the logs.
It was running leaner at 25:1 which means less power and higher operating temperature. Carb needs to be tuned for each mixture to get a accurate test.
That was an awesome test, Dave. Your attention to detail and accuracy are commendable. Nice job! I learned a great deal from your test. Thanks!
Hey! Thank you so much!!!
Thank you so much for the video. Plus the comments are also very interesting as well. Really good info all around.
WoW, this was very interesting and very informative. Thanks for all your hard work in making this video.
Great video and information Dave. As the old saying goes more is not always better and you proved it in this video!
Thanks Nash!!!
well that was a interesting outcome as Steve said Very informative thanks for taking time to share with us Dave you and donyboy73 and Steve's small engine do a fantastic job sharing your knowledge with us all keep up the great work take care
Hey Nasty! Thanks so much for the kind words. Glad to have you here
I'm very new to chainsaws ,so I just wanted to say thank you. This was pretty awesome
Thanks for the information. Keep up the good work Dave
Thanks Jeremy! I appreciate the comment!
Great video! Informative data. Many excellent comments. I have heard people recommend using 40:1. (Better piston/cylinder lubrication). I have been tempted but reluctant and continued with 50:1. My two non expert thoughts. Factory engineers designed the saw for 50:1 having done testing and designing and though probably not a big deal, pollutes less which makes me feel better. I really enjoyed this video. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
50:1 is an EPA mandated ratio
with good oil you'll be fine with 50:1, even on a 250 dirtbike engines we run 50:1 mix.. richer mix only lead to more carbon buildup.. i dont use stihl oil as it makes a lot of carbon buildup and loud piston ring sound..
Don't know if a heavier mix is better or not, but nothing mandated by the EPA is to improve engine life.
I'm not really into chainsaws but motorized bicycles, I've learned that there's a lot of similarities between the two so your information was very helpful, thank you.
That’s great Will! Cheers!!!
What did you decide 2 run. Im 40 1 craddle 2 grave!
Dave... Another great video! My man, you could've been a mad scientist. I like how you thought out the controls for the experiment. Letting it run out of fuel and cool down before trying the 25:1. And, the fact you did the 50:1 first...was that on purpose? Great idea! It minimized residual oil in the fuel tank and lines, that could have skewed (albeit very slightly) the test, if you did them in the opposite order. Well done!
Hey Cy. My father is an engineer and I hope he is proud! He watches all my videos before I post and gives me the thumbs up or down. Glad you liked it!
Good video Sir, I am not a Tree surgeon but a Home user accross the pond, and I run all my chain saws on 50:1. Stihl 08s, McCulloch 130, Husky 455 rancher and a small 120. And stimmers, hedge cutter, post hole borer etc and no problems.
I think going from a 50:1 to a 25:1 is a pretty radical step.
Using XP Series Husqvarna saws and 50:1 synthetic oil, I got damage over time (a lot of time but a $175 parts rebuilt …) I’ve changed to 40:1 and things seem to be much better
Husky oil is some of the worst oil made.
Stihl oil is right behind xp oil.
Have had my share of operating both an XP 390 & 3120. Are you using .87 or .91 gas?
Same, my top end is toast. Only 91 octane no ethanol in its lifetime.
I agree with you.
Same here, my dad and myself run 45:1 because we burnt up 2 saws before we made the switch and now running the 45:1 we haven't burnt one up
Proper sharpening. 32 to 1 mixture. Original 372 Husqvarna. Usied logging felling large hardwood timber. Saw ran awesome for 20 plus years. Got run over by a log forwarder. Busted both cases. Pulled the crankshaft out put in a couple cases that I bought from a buddy. That was five years ago still running strong. Proper sharpening.
I remember the big debate over 16-1 vs 32-1. Lol
My HomeLite runs best on 24-1.
These newbies, lol
Great experiment buddy! cool to see and think about with so many different mixture suggestions out there
Nicely done short and sweet, straight to the point.
Thank you!
Great video . I think the temp is higher because of the higher viscosity of the 25:1 mix and it leaning out the fuel mix so it would be interesting to have the carb adjusted to suit the higher oil mix.
I agree! I wanted to show what would happen if the average user were to simply double up the oil.
it would help some with the sluggishness for sure, but its not going to cure the excessive smoke or the extreme carbon build up that you see in saws using modern 2 cycle oil at 25:1... Ive said it before and ill say it again... 25:1 is a holdover from the days when you mixed straight 30w because they hadnt invented modern 2 cycle mix yet. Modern 2 cycle mix has a much higher flash point than conventional oil, so it doesnt burn off as quickly. there is a flip side to this... If your saw or other 2 cycle engine doesnt see a lot of RPM or load, it can actually struggle to burn off modern 2 cycle oil even at 50:1 causing excessive carbon. Idling is actually really really bad for a 2 cycle engine, as its not generating enough heat to burn off excess oil, but also isnt generating enough air movement from the flywheel to keep the cylinder cool either. Chainsaws in particular (because the engine is completely shrouded in plastic) are not meant to be left idling for extended periods of time.
There’s definitely a sweet spot. I have a lot of hours working on chainsaws, I see a lot of saws blown up on 50:1. 40:1 or 32:1 seem to make them last much longer form what I’ve seen
I agree 100%.
i dont buy that.
i have 7 years on a multitude of echo and redmax equipment. not 1 issue. 50 to 1 syn redmax oil
too many variables to make that determination
50 to 1 is what the manufacturer says. at least on modern stuff. you had this vid to show excess heat generated.
most blow ups in small equipment are user errors, poor mix, old gas..no maint....etc.
but if you feel better at 25 to 1 go ahead. wasting money and more smoke is what I see.
Our landscape company used 50:1 for many years, and we would throw out blowers every year due to low compression. A mechanic recommended that we switch to 40:1 ratio (more oil), richen our carburetors up, and remove our spark arrestor screens. Spark plugs are cheaper than engines.
We have had these same old blowers for at 40:1 for DECADES ever since we did that. We no longer replace equipment each year. Our equipment now is discarded/sold when it becomes obsolete and we can't buy parts for it - not because the engines were toast like they were annually, at 50:1. We have been in the landscape business since the early 2000's.
We will NOT change to less oil (50:1), to please CARB (california air resource board), or the EPA. We do what we must for our profit margins.
50:1 in a 550xp 10years old now it runs well still has good compression. But I use good oil
AWESOME VIDEO!!! I’m always wondering about thermal issues like does that extra heat transfer damage the PTO side oil seal. Or can a hotter drive shaft warp after cooling with an over tightened chain. But this video was awesome, I love videos proof instead of here say on the internet. BRAVO 👍
Love the easy chat style. Great woods shot too.
You see, the MAJOR FLAW in your test is that you did not re-tune your carburetor for the new mix ratio. If you are running more oil you are displacing fuel and causing a slightly lean burn. You just need to re-tune your carb a bit richer to get that extra fuel back into the a/f ratio and the saw will run just as cool and have more lubrication. If the saw has limiter locks they may need to be removed to run rich enough with more oil then the EPA mandated 50:1. I've heard that the M-tronic and Autotune saws have no problem adjusting for the extra oil if the proper warmup procedure is performed.
That wasn't the point of the video. He was trying to see what happens when you DON'T make changes. Additionally, most people don't have the experience to properly adjust and tune a saw.
@@afellowinnewengland6142then in this case he should have at least spoken about this. Context matters.
Well maybe you’ll get a refund. How much did this video cost you to watch? I know when I watch a video on CZcams I expect the highest academic rigor, peer reviewed papers and state of the art test methodology.
@@afellowinnewengland6142 listen to the whining little fan boy that can’t handle any criticism. Your definitely a millennial.
Superb vid Dave! You've definitely given me ammo to run my mouth on this. Lol. Thanks!
Hey Mike! Glad to help!!!
Excellent video. A great comparison. This is information that is otherwise not available.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for stopping in!
When Steve('s Saloon) is in Comments giving you props you know you're going in the right direction!! Very well-done, when is part 2 coming? (See what I did there? Just presuming/taking-as-given that this test was only "a start", you HAVE established "the parameters", so to speak (and shown what most knew but still benefit from seeing), BUT we know there's still another step-- finding whether the optima is:
- closer to 40:1 or 50:1?, and:
- once the 40-55:1 range is honed-in on, THAT is where you'd begin testing to see that, yup, your particular model operates best (using your local fuel - definitely specify this at least octane & presence/absence of ethanol, I pray it's the latter*), and while it'll vary by model (even within platforms, based on porting/etc) the results you'd obtain this way WOULD still give a crazy-large insight to all of us, or to any particular person REGARDLESS of whether they're contemplating their 36cc climbsaw, or 99cc groundsaw!
(BTW, just food for thought if you didn't already plan this, but the whole "50:1" is, quite obviously(duh), NOT some supreme precision ideal, it's a "rough guess" and, honestly, I'm still not sure whether the true optima, at least for the guys who started the 50:1 guideline, I have to wonder if they got there because their testing showed 48:1 was optimal, or 52:1, yknow? IE we don't even know if 50:1 is slightly rich/lean, we just know "it's darn-close", yknow?)
Great content, 'scribed & +1'd, thank you!!
(*=I wrote that sentence in a lighthearted-joke tone, BECAUSE I think you're DonyBoy73's Dave, IF I was wrong on that then disregard that parenthetical, I'd only EXPECT you HAVE TO know Re ethanol if you were with Dony, actually him & Steve were the 2 that I learned Re ethanol from, thankfully I'm in coastal tampa area so boating/ethanol-free fuel is easy to find, still a PITB and like >5.50/gal now :/ )
well now youve done it... there will obviously be no end to this lol
Great job, Dave. As an engineer, I believe collecting data to support a claim is essential. Thank you for conducting the test and sharing this data with us.
Hey there! I’m lucky enough to have an engineer as a father, and I’ve always been a big evidence guy myself. Myths and folk lore?! Prove it!!!
I believe in collecting a claim to support data. Ever think of that?
@@DavesSmallEngines HI, would be nice to measure RPM, load and no load. And then try to adjust the carb so you have same RPM in both scenarios with different mixtures. And then take the temperatures.
Yea, thank you for conducting a pointlessly flawed test. Carb settings for 50:1 is much different than proper settings for 25:1. So with the carbs tuned for 50:1 and the 25:1 fuel being added then of coarse the test would show your better off at 50:1. As an engineer one should know better than rely on such poor testing parameters.
@@rocco5045 I agree but tune the carbs correctly for each test.
Thanks a lot for your efforts and the surprising results and even based on that, I may run
my Echos & Husqvarna saws on a spoon of more oil, like a 1:45 or thinner mixture or so.
Super informative video once again... kudos Dave !
Cheers!
I've always mixed my saw gas at 50•1never a problem and always use premium gas in my saws been using that mix since the late 80s
Ran all my Huskys on 50 to 1 mix. Still do. Never looked likeblowing one up. Used to log full time. 2 years out of a spark plug was common. Why smoke yourself out for no reason. Used to have folks try all kinds of things out. Saws were often running to rich and gutless. 50 to 1 is what Husky mauals say and its good enough for me. My old 372 loves it.
I grew up selling firewood , my dad ran an 028 and 2 029s. Early 80s models. He ran 50:1 til the end. They survived from the early 80s until the late 2000s….. never rebuilt. Keep the chain sharp, air filter clean. Run an appropriate sized bar … and it’s amazing…. The saws lasted 30 years. Matter of fact the first 10 years was tree service and pulp wooding, and transitioned to only 20 chord a year fire wood the last 10 year or so.
Excellent video Dave. Never seen the issue of oil/fuel mix explained in such a simple and informative way. Brilliant 👍
Hey Bob! I greatly appreciate that. Cheers!
Cool video. Good tests. I like the way his saw sounded. That 4 cycle sound under no load conditions is what I strive for when adjusting the mixture. Just an occasional poppity pop is fine. I never run my saws wide open without actually cutting wood. I adjust the high speed jet by trial and error. I'll start cutting a log and listen to it. If it has that "miss" sound, I back off, lean the mixture a tweek, and do it again. I strive for that intermittent miss sound when into a cut. The idle is can be touchy too. A balance of the idle stop adjustment and low speed mixture. I adjust for that poppity pop sound and RPM just to the point where the clutch almost starts to catch the chain. I just use 40:1 ratio.
Great test. Be interesting to see what the results would be if you richened up the H mixture screw to compensate for the 25:1 mix.
It would be interesting for sure. I wanted to show what would happen if the same saw was used with the same settings. Tuning a chainsaw is beyond the scope of comfort for most folks. Thanks for watching, hope to see you back Brian!
@@DavesSmallEngines Most saws come out with autotune/m-tronic from now on, so that won't be an issue in the future. Knowing to tune a carb is mandatory, and easy, I don't know why it's always expected of people not to tune, or going with a leaner oil mix is a fix. It isn't. You could buy a saw in a shop at 8000 elevation, you go to your sea level home, and the saw now runs lean without you doing nothing to your oil-gas mixture or whatever. I appreciate the test, but the difference between 25:1 and 50:1 is 2% oil vs 4% oil. That's a 2% difference, or 2% less gas.
If the air temp is 6 degrees C colder than when you tuned the carb, that air is gonna be 2% denser, doing the same thing as going from 50:1 to 25:1 air mixture. It's just not that big of a deal in tuning, nobody has that fine of a ear when tuning so even the best at it just go slightly richer to be on the safe side and get back to cutting. It's not that big of an impact going from 50:1 to 25:1 as people think it is. Early morning to mid day temperature changes have a way bigger impact :P
In regards to 25:1 feeling more sluggish? That's again the tune or just placebo. This was tested decades ago and there's a research paper on it, I'll have to look it up and edit it on here. Max power and compression is at 8:1 fuel-oil ratio or so, and power decreases from leaner ratios more and more due to worse ring seal. Optimal ratio percentage wise for better power without going too rich on oil was 32:1. Regarding the extra oil, just use a full ester synthetic oil like motul 800 off road or similar and you won't see any smoke even at 4:1 czcams.com/video/QLW5KEslF3A/video.html
@@em4703 the test in the video you linked is a test on a 4 cycle engine… whole different story
The carb tuning on that saw is terrible. Shouldn't take that long to start a 260 and it shouldn't be smoking at any ratio.
This test is a bunch of BS.
The saw was started bone dry (without any fuel) before the 50:1 run. Then all the fuel was burned out before refueling with 25:1. In both cases I would expect a number of pulls would be needed to get fuel through the system.
Great video Dave!
Thanks buddy!!!!
Dony, now you got to do a similar video. Except, yours will be determinating how much power does a small engine make depending on what fuel you use. Also, lots of crazy sparkplugs out there that have huge claims like them iridium sparkplugs. Are two, three, or four electrodes better then one? Does it matter what the inner plug core is made of? Or does the cheap Champion just as good? SCIENCE! Why? Cause ya gotta.
@@stellarproductions8888 maybe team up with 'Project Farm' channel...?
czcams.com/video/rkoFzuwtbeA/video.html jak to naprawić przepustnica nie otwiera się do końca.....
@@stellarproductions8888 Champion isn’t the one you want…for some reason you can see a 600 rpm loss buy using one over the Ngk or Bosch is actually the one you want and what Stihl recommends..those multiple fingers are a farce… 😂👍
Great Video. Very informative. Regarding my friend's MS 390, I replaced the piston and cylinder he previously fried with aftermarket parts. I suggested to him to mix 45 to 1 with synthetic 2cycle and richen up the mix with Marvel Mystery Oil so the entire mix ends up being 35 to 1. When experimenting with fuel mixtures outside the manufacture's specs, there is a lot to consider. More lubrication does not necessarily mean less heat. I figure with the aftermarket parts rebuild, if the chainsaw lasts at 3 seasons it was a success.
I think so too! Has he noticed any power differences?
you have to figure what caused the saw to lock up ,most times its a vacuume leaks causing a lean condition .if you just slap new cyld. and piston you have not fixed the problem and in no time it will lock up again!
@@andrewslagle1974 Thank for the up date and info. I replaced the crank seals and the OEM crank bearings with SDK Bearings . Also performed a leak down test as well. My friend used cheap 2cycle in the chainsaw which cause the piston and cylinder to fry.
Great job, thanks for putting together the video
Thanks for watching, Jason!
Nice comparison test Dave, thanks for taking the time to do it thoroughly 👍 I suspect with a cheap Chinese chainsaw that specifies 25:1 (suggesting an older style engine) that it probably wouldn't survive long on 40:1 or 50:1 ? - The Stihl's has a rock solid motor - no monkey metal inn those bad boys 💪
its mostly because of their outdated information, or possibly the lack of availability of high quality engineered 2 cycle mix, which contrary to popular belief is much different than conventional 30w oil. If you could find a manual for an older Stihl from the 70s-early 90s, you would find that Stihl recommended 25:1 with straight 30w oil. As lube manufacturers developed better and better 2 cycle oils, the recommended ratios got lighter. If you look at some of the most modern oils like Amsoil Sabre, they recommend 100:1 because of the extremely high flash point.
one of my coworker uses a 30.1 fuel&oil mixture, for years. (stihl engine oil)
but yes the recommended ratio is 1/50.
Very helpful video thanks for taking the time to make it.
Another awesome video (of course!) Don released a similar video around the same time. You've got half the views, but your video is twice as long. Great job Dave!
Thanks John!
I run 25:1 and i tune them for 25:1 for 30+ years now, the oldest saws i have are 22 years old bought new together,thousants of hours,i used to make a living cuting and selling firewood,just my 2 cents
I have seen many demolition saws pick up a piston using 50:1, a higher temp isn't always a bad thing as long as its not too hot, hotter will bur the excess oil better. I have used 25:1 in all my 2 strokes for 45 years, no ill effects.
Same thing here, Harry. I burnt up two Husqvarnas over a 20 year period running 50:1 temporarily just for a test, then went back to 30:1 and hundreds of cords of firewood later, never had a problem. It certainly appears that the saw chain in this test got duller with each test cut. The last big log cut took 30% longer than the first big log cut using the 25:1 mix. It would be interesting to see the 25:1 test run first when the chain is sharper, then run the 50:1.
@@garsonprice3441 In two stroke bike racing they say more oil more power, there are dyno tests to prove that.
@@harry8506true, I picked up power in my zenoah g320 going from 28:1- 20:1
Thank you so much for your test and work
Hey Anthony! Thanks so much for stopping by. Hope to see you back again in the comments!
Awesome video Dave! Well done and informative.
Thank you!
I was shocked to hear you say lean condition. i been out of the game for a long time but no one ever used to believe that, drove me crazy. very generally speaking and also somewhat engine specific, more oil will produce more heat (and more power). dyno's can show an increase in power down to high teens, 19:1 IIRC . obviously your test was without a carb adjustment as it should have been, only changing 1 thing at a time. there are other things to consider such as atomization. heavy ratio is "harder" to atomize and efficiency can suffer as well as increase wear more apparent on larger bore piston port engines. A KEY takeaway imho is people generally add more oil to a rebuild. people add oil or even double the ratio arguably causing more harm than good to their new or rebuilt saw. cool video, thanks.
I always just use what the manufacturer recommends. I have a Stihl I bought new about 7 years ago, always used the Motomix 50:1. I have a couple of other 2 cycle machines that call for 40:1, so I use the premix or occasionally mix my fuel from pump gas (Sunoco 93) if I’m using it a lot of it. Maintenance is key! My motto with fuel or any fluids is: “when in doubt, DUMP it OUT”. Real simple, old fuel of just about any kind, even mixed, can be poured into my truck which is a 17 year old Dodge Heavy Duty which gets 12mpg. It’s gone in no time and diluted with frequent trips to the gas station. Just about any car will burn up old gas and not suffer the consequences, but some may balk at doing this with a precious new car. In that case, offer it to a friend or teenage driver who is too cheap to pay for their own in gasoline. In any case, if you be sure your fuel is fresh and mixed properly, you will rarely see any problems with power equipment. One run with bad fuel and it can be game over.
the manufacturers are between a rock and a hard place in regards to 2 cycle engines. Back when I was a kid, outboards ran as rich as 16 to 1 and now I have some synthetic oil that is recommended at 100 to 1! I believe that Californicate is outlawing all two cycles in the next couple of years, that sure will spur on the rebuilding parts business. I suspect that small differences (5 degrees in this example) are not significant but larger ones are (say about 50 degrees or so). I don't think that using a 40 to 1 oil in a 50/1 saw is gotta hurt anything and I think that test might be more useful. If you have two saws on yer truck, one 40, the other 50 are you goin' to carry two separate gas cans? I doubt if you have any 24/1 equipment left. One advantage to using my old lawnboy mower was that mosquitoes weren't a problem when mowing. Dang things lasted forever, way longer than the Chiner engine mowers sold now, end came when I broke the carb and couldn't get a new one.
You are so correct ! I run 42.5 :1 which pisses off regulators and idiots lol
Great test, that has been my experience. I have been wrenching for more than 40 years and that’s exactly what I tell people. Run your small engines on 50:1 and it will run cooler with more power. You just proved it thanks.
Hey Trent! Thanks so much for the kind words. Glad to know it helped!
No you run at 50:1 and make the EPA happy while your crank bearings fry lol
@@shannonwhitaker9630 since when did the EPA recommend 2-strokes run on 50-1 mix? Or at least Stihl saws.
You didn’t get the Memo ? In order for engines to get “certified” manufacturers had to test, adopt and suggest a 50:1 ratio where for many many years the recommended ratio was 40:1 on the newer more modern design 2-cycle engines. Of course the old school stuff (Steel Cylinders) were advised to run at crazy old ratios of 16:1,24,32:1 ect. True 50:1 isn’t actually “the stated Law” exactly but 50:1 is what is used for emission certification testing. Hence the “mandated ratio” theme. Did you know that the certification confirmation for emissions only lasts for a pitiful number of engine running hours on most equipment before they go out of compliance. Do some reading-research and get a laugh. I suppose none of this matters for many because if they run 50:1 and use “mandated” ethanol poison fuel your stuff will most likely ruin early helping emissions greatly. Oops there goes that “mandate” word again. I run 42.5:1 with non-e fuel. I buy oil by case of 1 gallon jugs if that’s an indicator of anything. That’s a lot of running. Did you know that a lot of 2-cycle bearings are capable of lasting 2,000hrs if lubricated properly. Piston rings will also last a great number of hours before compression lowers if lubricated properly. It’s a fine line between too little and too much oil with 2-strokes. Either direction has it own set of issues. Look up the videos of guys who fool with saws every days and see what they think.
@@shannonwhitaker9630 thanks for the information. I was just curious when this became the case, because in the old service manuals for the 028, Stihl recommends 50-1 mix with their oil and 25-1 with other brand oils. And of course the older series was all 40-1 with a few with 25-1 recommended, such as the old 070 and 090.
Thank you, good and simple real world test.
Great video buddy!!
Tinman!!! Great to see you here man. Thanks so much for the kind words.
The amount of oil would HAVE to effect volatility of the fuel. It would be interesting to see the two mixtures run on a saw set up on a dynomometer and measure the difference in torque output. Great video all the same.
The oil drops out in the crankcase. I read oan article on 2 stroke motors bikes. The got the best HP at 18 to 1
@@jimbo5635 I read an article saying the same thing. It may have been the same article.
2 things to remember here ,the more oil the lower the octane rate of the mix and 2nd two stroke oil returns to its original viscosity when compressed so more oil than recommended is wasted
Excellent put together video, Dave😎
Hey William! Thanks so much for the kind words. Take care!
Great comparative study. 👍
Less power, longer run time, higher temp. Check your cut times on the video. Try it again with a retune. 25:1 is mighty rich. The 4 stroke guys know oil contamination of gasoline reduces power. A two stroke will run better and better up to 100:1, just at the expense of longevity. 32:1 seems to be the sweet spot for me.
Actually, when tuned properly, the more oil will give you more power. It's been proven in two stroke motocross testing. A 32:1 mixture is about perfect for a chainsaw but it will require a carb re-tune to get best performance and to assure you don't get damage from running to lean.
The reason for the higher temps is do to the extra oil raising the compression. The reason it didn't have the same power is because it was running richer. The jets would have to be turned in a little on the richer mix to get the power up. Some thoughts from an old logger.
such an underrated comment, as well as maybe the chain got just a little duller, so the engine had to work just a tiny bit more,
as well as it was just one run, so it was not the average of like 10 runs, so differences in user inputs could have also bee the cause, but I agree with you, it needed just a bit of tuning, but still,
Richer in Oil, Leaner in Fuel. The extra oil would certainly reduce power somewhat because there is less Fuel which is what provides the power. Additional carbon buildup over time also. I wouldn't call this experiment absolutely conclusive, you would have to more precisely control load with each cut as that is probably the biggest variable. The operator may feel like he's applying 'similar' load with each cut but a variety of things such as changes in the log dimensions over its length, changes in Grain and density, and etc. would result in less than wholly accurate tests. I don't fault Dave's attempt to test, he doesn't have a lab and equipment to control the variables and did the best anyone could do without the proper instrumentation. There was a time when 16:1 and 32:1 mix ratios were common. With modern lubricants, modern materials and modern methods that produce better manufacturing tolerances, we don't need that much oil today. In any case it makes sense that less fuel would result in higher temps, that's what happens when you introduce less fuel to one of these engines.
@@Qwertyuiop-wg5xu You won't blow the engine up!
@@Qwertyuiop-wg5xu I always add a little extra oil to my mix. and after 52 years logging I have never blew up a saw. My brother who used to log with me wouldn't add extra oil blew up a good many saws. Common sense is uncommon.
@@ajw6715 i kind of agree, really, like let it run a bit richer on oil rather than maybe running a bit leaner, even though it might get less strong, but still, you would tune you saw on the mix you have, lets say you are running a 40 to 1, you will tune it while it has 40to1 mixed in it, not you tune it with 50 to 1, then run it on 40to1,
like, I am sure adding just a bit more oil will not be anywhere close to buying a new saw each few years, it definitely is better to be on the safer side, plus it is not as if you are damaging anything since you are still around 30 or 40 to 1, it is not as if you are going with 10 to 1 or something
Was like you was right on the edge of fouling spark plug with 25/1, thanks I wondered about this
Really love the video man keep up the good work
Thanks David!
I would be curious to know what effect a 40:1 would produce, as that's what I run in my Echo CS620PW and Holzfforma G660 PRO. They're new saws and I've tuned them slightly rich to 4 stroke when easing up in the cut when in a log close in size to the maximum bar length; 27" and 36".
I recommend mixing to manufacturer recommendation, especially considering newer saws have features such as autotune.
Aside from that, I've run 32:1 premix using ONLY fresh pump gas and carb tune using the tried and true 4-stroking method for decades and haven't encountered any issues. Still running saws built in the 70's era.
Agreed I run 32:1 in all saws from 70’s all the way up to new saws, zero issues. 1000’s of cords of wood lol, -50° F to 100° F always tuned and sharpened of course.
Fresh Ethanol poison gas lol ?
With decades of experience on working with engines the safest and best bet is to always follow the engines recommendations and never the claims of these premix formulas or two stroke oil providers that claim that their gas rich formulas is good for all, those engines are built with materials and clearances and tested with the mix that they recommend as is their warranty. Sincerely, Paulie T.
I would also like to add that the only times that I personally will not follow the engines mix recommendations is if they recommend gas mixtures as rich as 50:1and I always use the best proven two stroke oils. Sincerely Paulie T.
@@shannonwhitaker9630 Yes the 10% stuff. ONLY fresh and freshly mixed.
It goes sour fairly quickly, gets sketchy.
Even fresh 10% ethanol gas is hard on fuel lines and carb diaphragms, stick with ethanol free if you don't want to deal with that.
So very, very interesting - I had always wondered......and now I know the answer !
Many thanks......all the way from London.
Thanks Paul!!! Appreciate the comments.
Ultra interesting topic Dave! Great video!
Thanks Jacques!
Also with the higher oil level you will likely need to clean or replace your spark screen more often. I personally use 40:1 mix for many years with no issues even on cheap Poulan saw.
My husqvarnas won't seem to run on the 50:1, even the pre mixed sthil cans. Runs then gets hot and won't run. 2 out of three of them. The 3rd one would run on water lol!
The only way to measure if more oil is better is to have the saws worked for say 150 hours then tear down and measure the wear. Hope you can set a test up like that.
Try 42.5:1
@@jamesfrank3694 It’s not your fuel causing the problem I’d bet.
@@allanmccullough8550 one has been like that since brand new. 🤷♂️ the other is pretty old
I work my equipment hard, I also take care of it all. 40:1 is my preferred Ratio. If in doubt I’ll add a little more. I use Amsoil in most cases. Stihl is made by Castrol which is also good oil.
I use their Saber oil. It's great stuff!
New to your channel. This was a very well done vid, and very surprising to me. Seems counter intuitive, I’m still a 16:1 guy on my old Homelites. Very interesting. I need to do some research on exhaust emission temp vs. bearing surface temp, and wondering if the air mix was an issue? But your vid was pretty convincing!
Hey Joe! Thanks so much for the kind words. Keep me posted on your results!!!
Thank you! Please consider trying the test with Red Armor 50/1 and Amzoil Sabre 100/1.
Been mixing 6.4 oz oil, to 2. 3 gal of gas for 31 yrs. Never had a problem. I use any old 2 stroke oil I find by the gallon at walmart. Works fine.
Yep I use the Wal mart super tech and Murphy corn gas. 1/2 pint to every gallon of gas. One thing that really helps the older saws is to convert them to electronic ignition.
5.46 ounces API-TCW3 oil to 2.0 gallons gas/petrol for 15 years without a problem.
Then one day used farmer's old barn 2TC oil & cost me a new piston & rings.
STIHL/Husqvarna/Oleo Shell Nautilus two stroke oils cost far less when purchased in 5 litre containers.
Yes things have changed in the past 15 yrs, me too, so
also add Lead (LRP replacement) additive of 1ml : Litre of gas/petrol.
The Craftsman/Poulhan chainsaw I have requires 1:40. Newer saws seem to spec 1:50. It seems that the emissions regulations more than performance may have something to do with the new specs.
You guessed it.
another great video Dave! I enjoy watching your channel and donyboy73 as well! and by the way I run all my 2 cycle equipment at 50:1
That is awesome! Thanks for stopping in! Hope to see you back, Cheers!
This was a great test, good idea dude!
Thanks Luke!
Have you done small incremental steps while reading the plug? That will tell you a lot more about how an engine is running than temp ever will. I raced dirt bikes for years, and have lived out in the woods all my life. At 40-1 my HomeLite will seize. It like about 28-1. My Echo likes 40-1. Just sayin, your saw will tell you what it wants, and they are not all alike
Some of my 2-stroke engines require 40:1 and some require 50:1. I just mix 40:1 for everything. Even my old McCulloch gas trimmer still runs fine after 28 years. I wouldn't expect 25:1 to work very well, however. Thanks for sharing your test results
25:1 is a holdover from the days before engineered 2 cycle oil... back then, you would mix straight 30w with your gas. 30w burns off quickly so you needed more of it to properly lubricate the engine. With modern 2 cycle oils, thats not necessary because they have a much higher flash point. But some people cant seem to grasp that concept
One engine does not require more oil than another. You have got to truly understand two stroke engines or realize this. 50:1 oil mixes is great for every engine. A good example is my Shindaiwa has 25:1 embossed right into the fuel tank cap. The oil they sell for it is 50:1. The 25:1 was for other countries where they don’t have access to the high quality oil used in the rest of the world.
@@rickringler5021 Some engines do recommend more. Think what you want. I prefer 40:1. My grass trimmer is a 1994 model. My 4 chainsaws are 2005 & older. Everything runs great on a cheap 2-stroke oil @ 40:1. I would never go 50:1, but that's me.
@@driftlesshunter9200 not to be disrespectful in any way, but you, and most folks do not understand two cycle engines. They are a completely different critter. If you have attended service schools for fourty year put on by Stihl, Husqvarna, Honda, Echo and Shindaiwa you would be knowledgeable on the subject. Two stroke engines and their needs and failures is what they needed their technicians to understand.
@@rickringler5021 The key is non-ethanol fuel. I'm not losing sleep over 40:1 vs 50:1. I know what works well with my older equipment. If you prefer 50:1, so be it. You're the expert. I prefer 40:1 regardless of what the experts say. Some of my 2-strokes have a 40:1 recommendation. They sell pre-measured containers for a 40:1 mix. Whatever you think does not apply to all engines.
Nice Test. Enjoy your Channel. I have a Stihl 009L with 12"Bar bought new in 1994. I have always mixed at 45:1. I use it a lot. Runs great. Never into shop to get repaired. Sharpen myself.
That’s a great saw Paul!
Love videos like this that test old man wisdoms vs manufacturer recommendations. Good fun.
Thanks Deep345!
Very informative video Dave ! Great presentation as well. I always try to run a 45:1 ratio.
I’ve been told by @donyboy73 that is the sweet spot!
40-45:1 Lucas has always been good for me!
This is what I do with my Stihl. Not because I know much about engines (I don't) but simply because it always "felt" like a better idea. Happy my gut feeling SEEMS to be correct.
Nope the sweet spot is 42.5 : 1
Those slight temperature differences could be due to a blunter chain working the engine harder by the time you got around to the 25:1 mix. I run 25:1 in all my saws both Stihl & Husqvarna XP as I prefer the extra lube as I think it gives longer service life.
You're kidding, right?
@@mikezupancic2182 If you know you know, if you don't you don't.
I was told by a very old Maine mechanic that 50:1 was the standard set in place by companies due to EPA regs.
That's (one) reason Johnson outboards built in the 40's and 50's are still common out on the lakes and brand new motors fail after 10 years. The old motors ran on 16 to 40:1 depending on the year and model.
You guys are the best!!!! Thank you for your videos they are very inspiring.
Thanks Sherman!
Great test! Right up there with Project Farm!
Test suggestion. Test starting fluid to see if it really destroys a two stroke engine.
Funny you say that Dan! It’s already in the works! Stay tuned!
Awesome explanation Dave! So many don't think about the lean condition created with extra oil in the mix. Lube is great, but it's not the entire story: fuel cools the top end too!
edit: after reading most of the comments here, seems a lot of folks miss the point that this video is good info for the average DIY, homeowner, etc.: They just heard something on the internet about more oil is better, but don't really understand the need to re-tune the carb, which they likely don't really know how to do. Pros already know this.
Hey mower lady! Thanks for the kind comments. There’s a lot of folks that know more than everyone on the Internet. I’m okay with it - I wanted to do a test for the average user. I agree, most folks don’t know how to tune a carb. Thanks for stopping in!
Lady Lawnmover. Always on target with analysis and advice!
A+
Thanks for the info, time, and test!!!
Thanks!
Really good to know. Thanks for that...👍
iv'e been saying this all along , oil burns hotter then fuel , also the more oil you use the more carbon buildup you get which will cause scoring , thank you Dave
Awesome Michel!!!
@@DavesSmallEngines i'm thinking the apprentice might have taught the teacher a little something here , lol ,
even Steve's small engine disagreed with this idea 👍
@@marcelcanuck he did? Jeeze - I didn’t see that video!
@@DavesSmallEngines a few months ago live show with Donny ,not a big deal . i've learned quit a few things from his channel as well plus the guy is a hoot , great guy
If oil burned faster & hotter than fuel you'd have no lubrication & a seized chainsaw.
more oil is always better for the motors longevity. 40:1 and 32:1 are where I would run all of my equipment. Also you must retune your equipment when you make changes to your oil mixture.
That is not necessarily true
Great topic, and very well carried out! 👍👍👍
Thanks Bob!
Hey Dave, just found your channel. Great content. Thanks.
Would love to watch more about chain saws.
- Christian, Sweden
Hey Christian! Stay tuned!!!