A Critique of Lordship Part 2 | Theocast
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- In this second of two episodes on Lordship Salvation, Jon and Justin seek to further clarify concerns about LS theology. These concerns include: (1) confusion about the order of salvation; (2) a redefinition of faith; (3) a collapsing of law and gospel; (4) confusion on the uses of the law; and (5) a confusion of the relationship between justification and sanctification.
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#Lordship #Lordshipsalvatoin #JohnMacarthur
Man guys I really appreciate you two God used you to give the grace back to me of the gospel of Christ.
If it's up to us to keep the faith until we die, it makes faith a work for our salvation.
Thank you brothers. I have been teaching these things and it is so encouraging to hear others doing the same. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be satisfied.
You guys nailed it. I felt exactly like this, the prove it mentality is absolutely spot on in the lordship viewpoint.
Thank you!
Biblical balance! Praise Jesus!
So blessed to hear your discussions on this matter. I've found that very biblically and theologically sound. God bless.
this is a very good discussion on soteriology and the Gospel from a Reformed Confessional perspective.... and a nice refutation of "lordship salvation".... :)
Thanks!
This was incredibly helpful for me...putting words to something I wrestled with from past churches that left me very confused and hurting. Thank you, greatly.
Lesson learned. If your winsomeness muddies the way of belief, you are doing more harm than good with regard to the truth.
Well said
I do appreciate these Christian brothers trying to clarify and warn against Lordship salvation. I wish they didn’t believe in the 5 points of Calvinism, but at least they stand against Lordship salvation.
They are doing a good work to clarify Reformed Theology from a historical perspective. Calvinism isn't the problem, but Lordship Salvation. Calvinism comforts Christians through the doctrines of grace.
This is the best episode you have done. Thank you!
Thanks!
Thanks for the video. I think Paul sums it up perfectly in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Amen
Jesus Himself, tells us that when a man is willing to lose their life, they will find it. What a good God we have!
so i can be saved while i served money as my lord , that great, thank you preachers
Correction: No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws (drags) him (John 6:44).
Draw also means to draw by an inward power. Doesn't necessarily only mean drag. Just wanted to share some Blue letter balance.
This video brought up a past experience. I attended an open brethren assembly from 81-88. The lead teaching Elder was a DTS graduate. I had a copy of the Believers commentary which John MacArthur, Warren Wiersbe, W A Criswell endorsed. I first heard John MacArthur preach from a video shown at the assembly. I stared listening to John MacArthur and J Vernon McKee on the radio. I ran into this Elder and his wife recently. We talked about the division of that assembly as I never truly understood why they split. Apparently it was connected to MacArthur and MacDonald friendship. I’m not sure if MacDonald entered into the debate or not. There we be. Your video clarified a lot for me thank you.
When it comes to obedience, I think it's important to phrase the question. Are you obedient out of obligation? or are you obedient out of gratitude? I'm grateful for God's grace in saving me now. I'm going to be obedient out of gratitude. Instead of obedience. Out of obligation.? Obedience out of obligation sounds like works & law unless done out of gratitude for grace we are like trees if you put us in the Son we naturally grow fruit 😊❤
Totally agree. Jesus said that I will send you a comforter, which is the Holy Spirit. This is the ultimate affirmation from Jesus Christ, that you have fulfilled the law, based on Christ's righteousness alone.
What about obligated by gratitude?
1st of All - Thank You - Excellent Discussion - very encouraging to me....2nd at time marker 30:05 it looks like Jon is holding a cigarette in his right hand !!!!
Hahahah marker for notes!
Excellent video! Just wanted to report that one of the hashtags in the description has a typo (#lordshipsalvatoin) and therefore doesn't link to other videos in that category. God bless!
Thank you!
This is what happens when “theologians” sink their teeth into doctrinal differences in the Body of Christ - they clarify doctrines by constructing Byzantine theological arguments - and if they talk long enough they end up condemning those they disagree with, for example, that those who preach “Lordship Salvation” preach the law, cause others to stumble in their faith, have forgotten the work of Christ on the cross, redefine the faith which saves us, etc. If their conclusions are true, then it sure sounds like those who preach “Lordship Salvation,” and I do not count myself among them, teach another gospel. Theologians always qualify their opinions with blanket statements about how they are neither judging nor condemning others but then they proceed do exactly those things. Now, theologians love the Word of God, which is why they decide to become theologians in the first place. In this let us rejoice.
Maranatha
Well said.
I came out of Lordship salvation, never bought in to Calvinism, but overall I’m struggling with going to church. The position of pastor to me seems such an odd system the way we do it especially when they consider themselves shepherds. It can turn into a one man show and legalism creeps in regardless the doctrine.
I think it’s so confusing when others say you must persevere or you are not really saved (backloading Lordship) or the opposite of the same coin if you don’t persevere you will forfeit the free gift.
I am surprised at the John Calvin’s quotes. But I agree with you guys here.
Gosh, you guys are driving me crazy talking about Law/Gospel distinction, but failing to explain IMPERATIVE/INDICATIVE distinction in GRAMMAR!
Though your "achievable" point regarding law was gold.
I believe some of this teaching because I see that it is based on Scripture and the Order of salvation. Good works/obedience comes after salvation; since it is the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's heart.
But to say that all people who profess faith in Christ are Christians, [even if they live a life completely contrary to the faith they profess], I don't think it's Biblical.
What do you say about the parable of The tares and the wheat, The good and bad fish, or The 10 virgins?
So, fake Christians (unregenerate) inside the "Church " it's a myth?
The Bible's definition of faith is MENTAL ASSENT. Lordship Salvation is the teaching that faith has a third mystical element. Faith PLUS. That third element always ends up being WORKS.
“By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.”
1 John 2:3-6, 26-29 NASB1995
Jesus gives law to the proud but grace to the humble.
Can you please provide me the source for the Calvin quote?
At the end John says it’s possible to go from an adopted son to unadopted if you’re grounding your status before God on works that is dangerous. So did this son lose salvation or did he not have it to begin with because it was based on works. That was a confusing statement to me.
as i understood that statement he was saying that the 'lorship" teachers are making that point. John says that it is "dangerous".
So if Lordship salvation is over-adjustment against free will, what is the "middle path"?
In the same way that in regard to Lordship salvation you are saying, “how much obedience?” couldn’t you also be asking, how much faith?
I have a question for Jon and Justin. I've heard in the video that the confessions say that those who have faith obey at varying levels. Isn't this what Christ also teached in the parable of the sower where we see the good soil? In my conviction Christ is mentioning reborn believers by mentioning the seed in good soil and that He says that the good soil will bear fruit, one 30, another 60 and another 100 fold?
I hope to receive an answer to this how you guys perceive this because i have heard others who see this the same but you rarelt hear people about Christ mentioning the diffirence in fruit among believers.
Question: (Around 15:50) Isn't Ezekiel 36 talking about Israel?
Okay so I stopped it at 15:13 after he said repentance to be saved is something we would have to “do” and therefore it’s basically a work is what he is saying.
Well the way I have always heard it is repentance IS necessary because it’s turning from your sin to Christ. Faith + repentance = conversion according to Wayne Grudem’s systematic theology book. Also it’s the opposite of a work. A work is doing something. Repentance is not doing something. (Ray Comfort)
Ah I see now, saving faith THEN repentance and obedience, even instantly after. Hmm. Interesting!
Luke, Can an unregenerate person turn from their sin? No. Faith and repentance are a fruit of regeneration. This is something Ray Comfort does not see.
You turn from your sin as a result of being saved, not in order to be saved
Sorry just saw this.
No I would say an unrepentant man can not turn from their sin.
But isn’t that why we tell them to repent. Turn from sin to Jesus after giving them the bad news and they will want the good news.
God will change their heart in the process.
@@thegracecast40
Scripture is clear that all men must repent of sin. Without repenting of sin there is no forgiveness.
Luke 24 :46-47
Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. 47It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.
Repent means to make a decision of the heart and mind ( the will)
Your life is going in one direction and you decide that you want to live for Jesus.
A great example is Paul of Tarsus.
Paul was living a murderous unbeliever in Jesus but repented and dramatically changed his life to serve Jesus as the Apostle Paul.
Paul worked tirelessly teaching and preaching the Good News.
According to this teaching Paul himself is a Lordship salvationist.
Romans 14:7-8 (ESV)
7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s.
Regeneration before faith ? Please share your proof-texts, I'm confused.
Acceptable worship before God is offering your body a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable. Everything that you DO in the body is worship reflecting what is in the heart. If salvation is a free gift, regardless of what you DO in your body, then what you do with your body cannot affect your salvation. So you can be a fornicator or a homosexual and be unable to inherit the kingdom of God, and still be saved. Weird logic. A free gift primarily deals with something received that did not cost someone anything. So a free gift has nothing to do with works of righteousness required to attain it. But works of unrighteousness can disqualify you from salvation. Therefore salvation is both free and a function of works.
I don't think it's about the deeds, but the heart change that comes through trusting God and the Spirit. That heart change causes us to live differently and it comes gradually as more and more trust creates more and more change creating more and more fruit.
I'm trying to understand the free gift of salvation in the context of the clearly taught cost of discipleship. The bottom line is that no amount of trusting or doing would save us if not for God's decision to gift salvation based on trusting Him. Salvation is a restoration of a relationship based on trusting that defeats self-interest/will. Lack of trust produces sin. I think it's as simple as that. The just will live by their faith (trusting).
I've recently been impressed upon with the COST of discipleship. I look at the early church writings and these people were all BUSY loving and serving God by loving and serving people. I don't see that in today's church or even my life in a significant way (other than spending time seeking God and serving and taking care of my family).
Listen to this. Jesus said that unless one puts him ahead of everyone and everything else in their life, they CANNOT be his disciple. That means we are not a disciple/student if we call ourselves one or agree with Jesus' teachings or go to church every week or profess faith, but only if Jesus is first. He went further to say that if we live for ourselves (self-willed, self-directed, self-pleasing), we will lose our lives, BUT if we give it all up for his sake and purpose, we will live.
I don't think we realize how wrong self-interest is to God. The curse came because of failing to trust God (the deception was "God is holding out on you, he knows if you ate the fruit you would be like him and not need him anymore, being God's unto yourselves") and acting on that lack of trust to fulfill ourselves (they took and ate). The fall wasn't about the fruit, it was about unbelief (lack of trust in God) and self-interest (I'm going to act on my own behalf to have my own way). Without self-interest, there is no sin. It's no mistake that Adam and Eve did not know they were naked until after they sinned. They had no self-regard. Love is not self-seeking. God is love and they were made in His image. Self-interest broke who they were designed to be, free of self, trusting God, and acting in that trust.
There are a few places in the Word where lack of trust is equated to sin (last verses of John 3 and Hebrews 3 as well). So when Jesus came to break the curse, he came to break self-will and restore us to being love as God is love. Paul called himself a slave of Christ, having no will of his own, but seeking always to live for and please the One who redeemed him.
It's extreme, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. Narrow is the way and narrow is the gate that leads to life.
Is most of the church deceived? Are most of us professing Christians, but headed to hell? Paul said that if we live in the flesh for the flesh we will die, but if we by the Spirit, put to death the works of the flesh, we will live...
Something to think about...
I don't think Jesus was telling the rich young ruler that to be saved he had to give up his wealth. If that is the standard for salvation that applied to the rich young ruler, that standard would apply to all of us. Jesus was speaking to a Jew who believed that to be saved he had to keep all the commandments, and he couldn't, because by adhering to his wealth he wasn't keeping the first commandment, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart. So, the rich young ruler could not give up his wealth; thus, he needed Jesus as savior instead of the Law which he could not keep in totality. Regardless of how much of the law one keeps, there wil always be something that we wil fall short on.
If you can’t just call it salvation. Then it’s a different salvation and that’s why you have to specify it’s lordship salvation. Because it’s different Different as in false
My understanding of lordship salvation is when someone hears the gospel and they don't want to repent and trust in Christ alone..thats not true salvation. Which i believe is absolutely biblical.
The more I think about works and salvation the more I am confused. Aside from differences in how it is spelled out on paper, what is the difference between doing good works because of your faith, and working with your faith by doing good works? Feels like a distinction without a difference.
Is it your motivation that then matters? That if you do good works to merit justification it becomes damning? Then surely it just becomes pietism and justification by motivation not unlike what tormented Luther.
The question is asked, “How many works are enough works?” In an attempt to discredit “Lordship” salvation.
Yet, you say that a Christian will produce fruit if they are true Christians. If someone is justified they WILL be sanctified.
Couldn’t the same question be asked to you then, “How many works are enough works to show someone is being sanctified?” When can you ever judge someone’s confession of faith or tell them to question their confession?
unfortunate that I cannot update my posts for greater clarity.
Sad.. I missed the giveaway..
Jesus made it clear with his first command when He started His earthly ministry.
Mark 1:15
The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. REPENT AND BELIEVE the good news!”
Repent change your mind about your sinfulled life and Believe.
Paul echos what Jesus said in Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they MUST TURN TO GOD IN REPENTANCE AND HAVE FAITH (believe) in our Lord Jesus.
Repent first then Believe.
We first have to humble ourselves by acknowledging our sins to Jesus and make a decision of the heart and mind to turn away (Repent) only then is evidence shown of faith to truly believe.
Believe that Jesus died was buried and rose again for the punishment we deserve for sin.
Men that reject repentance as the new "free grace" teaches have replaced REPENT with Trust.
Jesus never once said Trust in Me for the forgiveness of sins.
Both the OT & NT teach "IF" we do something "THEN" God would do something. He gave us free will because He is a loving God. Otherwise we are calling God a monster who condemns those that have no choice...that is not a just God. His sovereignty gave man freedom to choose to love Him or reject Him. God teaches this through out His entire Word.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
For God So Loved the World (reading it through it is clear we have a choice)
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
He's looking for those that seek to trust and obey Him because He is worthy. Jesus was our example to follow, through His death and resurrection we can be born again by the power of God as the Holy Spirit transforms us into Jesus' image. (Romans 8)
John 14:15 "If you love Me you will keep my commandments."
Loving God drives us to want to do His will, follow His commandments, live and die for Him just as the disciples did, just as Jesus did. He is so worthy of praise, glory and honor every waking hour for His goodness.
He also said His commandments are not grievous. He will empower us when we are weak, we have not because we ask not and we ask amiss. We are sinners, but not so dead that we cannot respond to His gospel message of salvation...that is not taught. Cornelius was loved by God for his faithfulness and he didn't know Jesus; Abraham was counted for righteousness for his faith, he proved his faith by his action, James teaches this; we should never read into His Word was is not there or we create yet another ism. To be of one mind in Christ, we need to take in 'all' of the counsel of God or we mischaracterize God.
1 John 1:9 " If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins." We are never going to be perfect, this is why Jesus gave us a way to remain abiding in Him.
John 15 teaches we must remain abiding in Him as we can do nothing outside of Him, we can bare no fruit without abiding in His vine as a branch. Otherwise our branch dies and is cut out and cast into the fire in the end if we do not overcome until the end. Rev 2 & 3 are constant warnings to those in the church and the churches as a whole.
Jeremiah 18 God teaches IF, THEN, just like Jesus taught in Rev 2 & 3, John 15, etc.
We Do Have a Choice, God is not responsible for OUR rebellion, we are! God IS responsible for our salvation through Jesus Christ who died in our place...His sovereignty, as we see everywhere in the Bible, teaches we have free will or there's no purpose for the many warnings. Not to glory, but to freely choose whom we will serve by faith just as Abraham.
Jeremiah 18 The Potter and the Clay (This explains Romans 9 well; God is warning His people if they didn't repent, do what is right, He would punish them and make them as a vessel of dishonor. If they followed His will He would make them as a vessel of honor. This is the character of a just and loving God.)
Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Jer 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
Jer 18:13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.
Jer 18:14 Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken?
Jer 18:15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up;
Jer 18:16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head.
Jer 18:17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.
Jer 18:18 Then said they, Come, and let us devise devices against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, and let us smite him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of his words.
Jer 18:19 Give heed to me, O LORD, and hearken to the voice of them that contend with me.
Jer 18:20 Shall evil be recompensed for good? for they have digged a pit for my soul. Remember that I stood before thee to speak good for them, and to turn away thy wrath from them.
Jer 18:21 Therefore deliver up their children to the famine, and pour out their blood by the force of the sword; and let their wives be bereaved of their children, and be widows; and let their men be put to death; let their young men be slain by the sword in battle.
Jer 18:22 Let a cry be heard from their houses, when thou shalt bring a troop suddenly upon them: for they have digged a pit to take me, and hid snares for my feet.
Jer 18:23 Yet, LORD, thou knowest all their counsel against me to slay me: forgive not their iniquity, neither blot out their sin from thy sight, but let them be overthrown before thee; deal thus with them in the time of thine anger.
The proof-texts for any ism are easily dismantled by reading God's Word. Steer clear of any ism, anyone who teaches to focus on any other name than Jesus Christ is blinded by their ideology and bias, seminaries are ruining Jesus' doctrines of Truth. God please help us.
Rely solely on God's Word and lean not on your own understanding but in all your ways acknowledge Him and HE WILL keep you on His narrow path for HIs righteousness' sake, glory and Kingdom to come. Praise God for His holiness, grace, mercy and love to save those that are lost, Amen
Scripture says more than a few times That God had repented. But we all know God does not sin. Therefore he couldn't have been sorry the question is the word repentance. Means > metanoiya A change of mind, Now
The verse would sound correct. God had changed his mind. I think the word repentance is taken out of context a lot in scripture People suppose it means falling on the floor with sackcloth and ashes. Crying when actually it means a change of mind. We change our minds from working our own self. Righteousness to recognizing the Lord's finished work has already been done and believe and adjust our behavior accordingly out of gratitude for his grace thoughts😊?
Obviously as a Reformed guy, I don't agree on everything with MacArthur, but he was 100% spot on in "The Gospel According to Jesus." He was wholly correct. That's one of the top five modern books I recommend to people looking to go deeper in their faith.
Interesting, not sure you understand historic theology. He openly denied a covenant of works and law gospel distinction in this book making it not reformed traditionally.
That book teaches a blatant works salvation. It's heretical.
I am pretty sure Hodges wrote his book in response to Johnny Mac's, y'all seem to have it backwards. Can you check on that? Y'all do do a little research before you do podcast don't you?
Have you read the whole Christ by Sinclair Ferguson? This debate is older than Jmac
You have to separate what repentance is being referred to. Repentance of sin alone or, as is discussed in Hebrews 6, and other places, the repentance from righteousness by works.
It seems clear you mean repentance of sin. But in the other case, faith and repentance DO go hand in hand. Read Hebrews 6.
You can only repent from salvation by works by faith in Jesus... thus in such case, indeed repentance and faith are inseparable.
Not making this distinction is troubling.
And of course obedience follows (by sanctification) after faith/repentance from salvation by works, or faith alone where the repentance from sin is then part of obedience.
I say long u as in Luke, but academic latin just says u as in luck
Thanks!!!
I’m sympathetic to the lordship view, but I appreciate the discussion. Several times you said something to the effect that believers “will” obey Christ. Perhaps it would be helpful to think about these 3 different views in terms of similar auxiliary views. Everyone believe that believers “can” obey as opposed to the unbeliever who “cannot” obey Christ. Free grace folks would say that believers “should” obey but they may not. Someone can be a true Christian but never produce the fruit of obedience, putting sin to death, pursuing holiness etc. you guys would say believer “should” obey but more than that, that they “will” because the Holy Spirit is at work in them to bring good works about. And the Lordship folks would agree with you that believers “should” and “will” obey, but they would also be fine with saying that believers “must” obey. That obedience is required as a fruit of faith in order to get to heaven. The distinction between the “will” and the “must” may seem pedantic or redundant but I do think it constitutes a real practical difference in the way that the commands of the NT are dealt with in relation to the believer, which itself is rooted in more fundamental theological differences.
Should be auxiliary verbs, not views
To be honest, there really is not that much of a difference between lordship, salvation’s use of the law and the Wesleyan idea of perfectionism.
Lordship Salvation,as some call it means that we by the anointing of the Holy Spirit recognize Jesus for who He is and give Him the honor that He is due by surrendering to Him in obedience. He has earned it; He is worthy of it. Ultimately, this is how our walk with Christ should begin, by recognizing and confessing sin and that He is Lord. It's not adding works as proof, its a unquenchable desire for living for and pleasing Jesus.
It's loving Him because He first loved us and gave himself for us.
This is how salvation is obtained, by this very recognition
We all serve either God or the devil.
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”
Following Christ and His commandments are easy if you love Him...He even teaches so. His grace forgives a repentant heart, that's true love, praise God! Where's the problem? Isn't this Biblical? Is it important to love Jesus if we are His disciples? Can we Abide in Jesus without loving Him? What happens if we don't abide in Jesus (John 15).
John 14:15 " If you love me you would follow my commandments."
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
The Body of Christ would have one mind if we all knew His Word better than any man's teachings. Isms would be a rare thing rather than the norm.
Divisions occur when we read men's books over the Bible.
Men are fallible...even Calvin and Arminius. They both get parts right and parts wrong which is why they both fail. Cognitive dissonance to fit-in is real and it's dangerous.
Free yourself from men's books and men's interpretations. Teachers should only be pointing out 'all' of the Scriptures on a subject, not picking and choosing ones that fit their organization's/teacher's ideologies. This is what causes divisions in the Body of Christ. Listen to both camps and test their proof-texts on a doctrine. You'll find they both refuse to consider specific verses that counter their man-made doctrine. Bias can lead to willful blindness if ignored. When Jesus, not an ism, is our focal point we are malleable to all of His Words in their proper context. It's so easy to see which verses an ism is refusing to acknowledge, their bias is seeking to shore up their ism and they miss Jesus' teachings.
Satan would love us all to be ignorant of the God's full teachings to maintain the divisions in the Body of Christ and to confuse believers. If a teacher touts any one other than Jesus Christ walk away. You'll be taught doctrine's of men instead of Christ's doctrines. Many isms realize this and are stealthy. Test all teachings through prayerful reading. Listen to both sides to understand their proof-texts and test them for context, use bible study tools (www.e-sword.net my fav) to search words and phrase to obtain 'all' the verses on a subject. Learn of the author, the purpose of his writing, who he's talking to, the location, and date, use a lexicon (Hebrew/Greek dictionary) to help with difficult passages, keep a journal. This is being a good Berean as Paul taught we must be.
Trust in the Holy Spirit as you prayerfully read His Word and be amazed at how clear and easy understanding His salvation message is. It's a lifelong process of joyful discovery to know God's promises, love, mercy, grace, long-suffering, forgiveness, patience, generosity, kindness, justness and plan for those who endure to the end as is taught throughout His Scriptures, Old and New Testaments.
Be liberated by faithfully seeking Jesus alone through His Words and the Holy Spirit alone, test everything by His Words and consider all verses in their proper context to understand a subject matter, God bless you on your journey to know in Whom you believe
I'm so tired of being confused by christians who say the same things two different ways and expect people to understand.
I *just* watched a video of you guys saying something to the effect of "lordship salvation people will say you have to do works or surrender completely to be saved, or at least be willing to surrender, but this misses the message of the gospel. No one can surrender completely, or follow the law completely, that's the entire point. That's why we need Jesus"
Then in this video you said "good works are necessary...when *saving* faith is present, good works and repentance will be present... If you aren't willing to surrender you're ignoring the gospel"
sounds an awful lot like saying "if you were really saved you'd have good works".
Explain what I'm missing please because I'm getting so sick of all this seeming back and forth. I'm almost ready to throw up my hands and quit trying.
They are saying that the works will only come after salvation. We will always struggle just like Paul did in Romans. But because we are saved we will have fruit that is from the Holy Spirit. He makes that change in us. We can't do it God does the works of salvation and the works that come after. If someone is born again they will have fruit. Not of their own doing but from resting in Jesus. That the point James is getting at in chapter two. Because Abraham was justified by faith he walked out his faith "works". Its the order. We don't earn it we received what Christ has done. And we love him so we keep his commandments. We can only love him because he first loved us. Jesus has done everything required.
I don't subscribe to all the titles that seminary assigns to everything but stick to what my bible says. When I hear all that other junk I know it's progressive liberalism that has come into so many churches & denominations.
I don't even care about calvanism, I'm not and I don't talk bad about them because they are my brothers & sisters.
Lordship salvation, all I know is there are so many false may accusations people use to explain it. Well, Jesus is Lord, I was saved by my faith in Jesus Christ, I was deeply aware and sorrowful of my sins when God called me to Him, once I was saved the Holy Spirit entered and I was changed, I feared God out of reverance and had a deep desire to live a holy life but knew this had no impact on the salvation that God's great grace gave me. Unlike the devils who also believe we demonstrate fruit of salvation. Those that believe in progressivism & liberalism hate it when Christian's do good and it's compared to them. The church and so many who profess to be Christian's do not want to imitate Christ and want to hold onto and justify many sins that they think are ok for today. Example is how the false church & false believers ushered the homosexual agenda & gay marriage into the church. It's amazing at how many Christian's became tolerant of it simply because the world called them bigots & homophobes if they wouldn't accept it. Now we have many young man preachers that represent the world in appearance & talk that won't preach against sin. Nothing like a pastor standing up at a pulpit with sleeves rolled up to show off tattoos, a piercing and a long wallet chain. That's always my sign and the younger crowd is eating it up.
It is hard to find a good church nowadays. I for one do not agree with the SBC and in Tennessee it is hard to find a non SBC church. Then rather than have a church website almost every church out here just uses facebook. I won't subscribe to Facebook solely because Mark Zuckerberg is a member of NAMBLA the North American Man Boy Love Association - pedifilia. Say what you will but knowing that I can't have any partake with anyone or any organization subscribed to that.
Who cares what your "confession" says. Who cares what Calvin says? What do Jesus Christ and the Apostles say? REPENT!! Stop arguing about it, and just do it. My gosh all this reformed hair splitting and parsing nonsense. Faith comes by hearing (Rom 10:7). If you hear and believe, then Repent. Be Baptized. Receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). Now your war between your Spirit and the Flesh begins (Romans 7). Fight the good fight (1 Timothy 6:12), walk in the Spirit (Rom 8) . When we sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us (1 John 1:9). If you are making a practice of sin, you have not repented, and you do not know Him (1 John 3). Do not abuse God's grace as a license to sin (Jude 1:4).
The Bible does not say that regeneration precedes faith, it is vica versa. For some reason Calvinists have a hard time believing that 'being dead in our sins' does not mean that we have no moral or intellectual capacity to come to accept an invitation to come to faith. It simply means that we cannot save ourselves, only God can do that. God is still sovereign and it is still all a work of God to be saved, but we need to accept the invitation first - via hearing the Gospel message - by putting out trust in the Lord. So we choose to respond to that message, we aren't dragged into faith as is by some invisible force.
The Bible could not be plainer or simpler but Calvinism complicates it by trying to turn Christianity into an exclusive club, which is unbiblical and opposes the Gospel message that in
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "
It means that those that respond (very few) belief (faith) precedes regeneration, not vica versa. From that point on, after you've declared an understanding of the Gospel message and admitted you are a sinner and renounce all sins (being in Adam) = repentence - you are Christian. From that point on all of your sins are forgiven - past, present and future - the Holy Spirit enters you and you become a new creature. The old carcass, that carries the weight of sin, past, present and future too is sealed from judgement and those sins won't be counted. You're a new creature with a new heart and that person is who will be saved. If you continue to sin, as you will - as you still carry the baggage of your old carcass Adam self (Rom.7) they are washed with the blood of Jesus, as were past sins. By way of thanks, and putting God first, your new creature Christian self will express a love for the Lord with the help of the Holy Spirit and will follow Christ, bear fruits of the spirit - unquantifiable - and this will absolutely no bearing at all on salvation, past or future. There is no evidential value involved to anyone else - becuase there is no one to evidence them to, because evidence implies judgement, which in turn implies accountability, which in turn implies works (Faith without works is useless). So yes, there is works with faith but they are unconnected in what they represent. Works is simply something you choose to do out of your love for the Lord, but it is God who grants you faith to believe which precedes regeneration as connected to salvation.
That is the Gospel message around soteriology, as I understand it.
Ephesians 2. You were dead in your sins. He made you alive.
@@THEOCAST
@@THEOCAST That simply means that your natural sense of morality and/or intellect (so far only shaped by the culture around you and your background) did respond to a Gospel message you heard. That is what Eph.2 means when you were dead in your sins and God makes you alive. The Gospel represents God and you responded to that invitation and message. It is no different to anything you experience where something that never occurred to you that you were in ignorance of or you were aware of but had rejected now does make sense for you, whereas before it did not, so you now accept it. Therefore, you choose to respond (faith) instead of ignoring it (repentance) and then the process of walking the Christian life, with help from the Holy Spirit begins. Faith results in Repentance (turning away from Adam) that results in a desire to walk with the Lord and serving him to be more like him. Fruits of the spirit are not evidence you were saved because you don't need to evidence anything to anyone, which is the point of evidence. The regenerative P in TULIP message that Calvinists speak of (Perseverence of the Saints) is basically works based salvation carefully disguised to make it look like it isn't.
Eph.2 doesn't mean that some invisible force alarm call suddenly zapped you from the heavens by dragging your unwilling dead bones in front of a Gospel source and, metaphorically, held a gun to your head (regeneration is ignited) to force to you have faith and from that point on you are irresistibly drawn toward greater repentance and holiness. You only have to look at the MacArthur scandal and the comments on You Tube channels run by Calvinists to see that regeneration is not happening to make them better and more holy people. Instead, they deny facts, seem nasty and vicious and seem completely unregenerate. Their ability to make them look Christian largely rests upon their ability to browbeat society and secularism as totally evil and depraved (not just incapable of saving itself) and to throw grenades at other theologies that don't support Calvinism. If you trample hard enough of anything, it will soon flatten. So by comparison, it makes the Calvinist look elevated spiritually. In reality, a lot of them stand still and worry themselves sick that they are not saved or are non-elect because they haven't repented enough, confessed enough, repented enough, confessed enough....ad infinitum. Calvinism is a hideous theology, completely unbiblical and is as far removed from the easy yoke and light burden it is meant to be.
Being born again is not the same as being born as a baby. It is not a kicking and screaming exercise after being pushed out of the body, it is a choice you make based on an invitation you have been given and you now feel able and willing to respond to. Being drawn to God has been taken out of context in Calvinist circles to the point that it is understood to be like a baby being born from a mother's womb : they have no choice, they had no say in it, etc. That is not what Ephesians 2 means. The Gospel message itself represents God and its messenger is making you alive when you respond to it. It is more like a magnet being drawn to an iron nail. Why do you think there is a Great Commission - to draw people to God. If Calvinism was correct - and all the saved had been born again before the foundation of the world (as they understand it to mean) - there would be no use for preachers spreading the good news and for most it would not be good news anyway. Calvinism is a twisted, inaccurate cult that attracts too many of the emotionally stunted, hard hearted and unregenerate and love the idea of a God that puts a lot of people off for being the author of cruel, evil deeds all for his own good pleasure. That characterisation of God/Jesus is not found in the Bible anywhere.
Ok, this is not new theology. I pray you keep wrestling with the Word. Read John 6 and ask yourself one question, if Jesus loses none of the sheep the father gives him, and all the sheep the father draws will come. Does he draw everyone? If he does draw everyone does that mean the whole world will be saved?
@@THEOCAST If you remove the corridor of time from God's ability to 'choose' his elect before the foundation of time (how we would interpret it) and we, whilst constrained by the corridor of time, do choose to come to the Lord in faith to be saved, that is one and the same thing - as God expresses his sovereignty by giving us the ability to choose or reject him and God is omniprescent.
That means that God chooses and we choose simultaneously from both sides (even though that comes across as illogical). Because God knows however many hairs are on our heads, he will surely know who those 'who chooses' to come to him in faith will be (known as his pre-destined elect before the foundation of time) and he will know, out of who chooses him, who will stay the distance and that those will be very few as well.
When Jesus died he atoned for the sins of the whole world but only a few will accept the invitation to be born again (what you call 'the elect). Those few will be saved. Calvinists say much the same thing only they acknowledge only the few that have been saved as the few that Jesus died for (unlimited atonement). It is just a play on words, not an either/or situation - although the Calvinists' interpretation does suggest that Jesus didn't atone for those who were not saved, giving the impression that the few that were are a sort of elite pre-chosen before Jesus actually died. I don't think the Bible supports that at all.
This is not an either/or situation. The Bible does not in anyway cater to the idea that we were saved on some kind of time continuum that took place before God even created the heavens and the earth so that when we chose to be born again, long after the earth was formed, we did not choose at all, we just gatecrashed the party and only those who were the elect know who they are and get a heavenly 'ping' known as the effectual call who do no such choosing and are irresistably drawn to God etc.. This conceptually is not supported at all in the Bible.
It's a shame that it seems like now you guys are boasting in sanctification an using language like progressive which the Bible doesn't use... How is it that Paul taught about sanctification but never used the word progressive..
1 Corinthians 1:30 ( . 30But it is [ae]due to Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, [af]and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31so that, just as it is written: “LET THE ONE WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”)
You guys are literally teaching that people can have boasting rights due to individualize performance through a secondary use of the law... That's not dying to the law that's looking to the old husband to try to get something out of it that we get from Christ alone by faith alone.. It's spiritual adultery when you try to get somthing from the old husband that you believe the new husband does not provide...
Romans 7:4 ( Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.)
I've been married and joined to Jesus Christ who is my only boasting for sanctification..
Hebrews 10:10 ( By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.)
You only have to hold up a hand put up one finger up and look at it how many times does the Bible say we have been sanctified one time and for all time...
People that hold to progressive sanctification are insistent on using terms like progressive that's not in the Bible...
Ephesians 1 ( Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, )
The Bible teaches that we've been blessed with every spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ not partial or progressively or incrementally.
The doctrine of progressive sanctification robs people of part of their inheritance in Christ..
2 Corinthians 5:17 ( Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.)
See in Christ ALL things have become new not partially or incrementally or progressively and that includes sanctification...
John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.)
The reason why we are sanctified is because Jesus sanctified Himself but progressive sanctification teaches that you sanctify yourself... Jesus says we are truly sanctified progressive sanctification says it's down the road some future version of you...
Progressive sanctification is the last residual attempts of the human flesh to try to perform works to try to merit something before God...
People who believe they could not squeeze one ounce of righteousness out of the law now believe that they can be made holy through some measure of performance independent from the cross....
Hebrews 10:10 ( By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.)
Galatians 6:14 14May I never boast except in the cross of our LORD Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.)
I have zero ties to any religious affiliation that's going to pressure me into believing stuff that the Bible doesn't teach i sure hope you fellows do the same...
By the way I never got an answer on whether or not you believe king Solomon will have eternal life because he didn't love God with all his heart mind and soul he was worshipping other gods and sacrificing to them...
He didn't keep the commandment to love thy God with all thy heart mind and soul to be justified so was he saved at one point in his life or was he not...? If you say yes he has eternal life then you you have made a contradiction on what you guys are saying in this video...
Unfortunately these guys are clearly backloading works because of their misunderstanding of what the bible teaches about sanctification. They make this division between justification and sanctification but its justification that qualifies us for the inheritance in Christ which includes sanctification and righteousness ect. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,)
It's very clear that this verse is showing us that sanctification is by our faith and belief and not by works of the flesh but by the Spirit through faith.
They don't want sanctification by grace they want it by their works.
Romans 11:6 ( And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.)
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,)
I hope they give glory to God on this in time and in turn stop disturbing the one looking only to Jesus.
@@calebedwards7705 When you say nobody wants to read a long paragraph that's a universal statement that you can't justifiably sustain..
I read long paragraphs all the time but a lot of people who are of the young fast food ATM generation often are very impatient when they dont get whatever it is fast enough.
It literally took me 60 seconds to re read my paragraph lol.. You are a clown..
@TS, justification is an instantaneous legal declaration. Is sanctification instantaneous?
@@carmensiekierke3579 Yes it is... czcams.com/video/uP7rAmS8Bk0/video.html
@@carmensiekierke3579 Carmen do you now see the error that sanctification is progressive...
Paul never used the language that sanctification was progressive that's why this confusion is going on today is because people are adding to scripture..
It's our justification by faith that qualifies us for our inheritance in Christ which includes righteousness and sanctification performance could never achieve that...
Progressive sanctification is the last residual attempts of the pride of man to say I am doing it...
ESV? Im out, bye.