Dumbest Thermostat Job EVER! Why Does it Cost TEN Times More to Replace!
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- čas přidán 17. 01. 2024
- Some car designs are worse than others. The engineers behind the placement of the thermostat in this video definitely didn't care about maintenance. ➡️ Don't forget to check out @MrsWizardsWays for her great car content.
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#carrepair #carwizard #carmechanic #autorepairshop #automobile #cars #car #thermostat #audi #audilife #delorean #mercedes #mercedesbenz #mercedesc300 #landrover #landroverdiscovery2 - Auta a dopravní prostředky
As we speak, Audi engineers are working tirelessly to make oil changes an engine out job.
You’d think, but these days they are putting the filter on the top with an oil extraction port. It’s all done from the top and you don’t even have to look under the car. It’s the best car ever for oil changes. Also remember this video is a 2000 Audi S4. They were known to be STUPID to do anything with. Most of the newer stuff is a lot easier… especially the 4 cylinder ones. Tons of room.
Nope their not. They will b replacing every single bolt with a security snap off head bolt so its engine replacement.
@@jlacc1 Got a 2018 Audi suv with the ea888, a 2013 Honda v6 j35 engine SUV, and an 06 BMW 3 series with the N52. The easiest to change the oil on is the Audi, followed by the BMW and the Honda the hardest. None are hard, but the Honda is the worst. I’m not an Audi fan boy - they have their issues but changing the oil and room under the hood with the ea888 isn’t one of them. Honda loves to put fasteners in terrible locations. The Germans just like to build layers, but at least they planned for someone to service it one day. At that’s been my experience Japanese vs German cars over the last 10+ years.
Correction: Audi sales department is holding their engineering team hostage forcing them to make every repair an engine out job
@@briantii Yes true working on a B series or K series Honda engines requires some agility to remove the oil filter but thats it the rest is easy to work on. Im not sure about the v6 but since all makes of v6 mounted tranversely is a pain to work on.
In 2000, my BMW dealer redid his facility at a cost of $15Million. This was the beginning of the "megaplex" dealerships with different lounges, rooms, showcases, etc. I recall him saying "I sure hope BMW keeps the service profits coming!" If we realize service is what dealerships want, then these German cars aren't poorly engineered, rather specifically engineered for maximum labor time.
Poorly engineered for the customers, poorly engineered for the mechanics, well engineered for the guy that gets to put the profit in his pocket.
Period.
Wow that's actually a really good thought ! I remember back in late 2008 when the BMW dealership in Moncton (I was just 10 at the time) just opened as my mom wanted a new (and her first) BMW 328Xi and we were blown away about how nice the dealership itself was a really nice place to be ! Of course being a car kid I was just as much blown away than WDW, gotta love free hot chocolate ! 🤣
dealers are great at ripping people off. The service guy makes a commission in selling services to the customers. And There is a toyota mechanic that talks about how the dealer upsales parts also to rip the customers off.
Sickening
Problem is the mechanic gets a paltry amount of the $175-$250hr rate. Of course the stealerships make out
The Pontiac fiero with the 2.8l v6 required zero tools. You open the fill cap and pull the thermostat out. So easy!
Check out replacing the alternator on that V6.
@@michaelwilkening8542 I don't remember it being that bad. The front spark plugs are a pain though.
soon as you said "Audi", I knew that it will never ever affect me!! 😂😂😂
A lot of people don't understand that "while we are there" is cheaper than another visit to the mechanic
😂 So true 😊
Yep, I had a VW Golf 20 years ago, a 2001 Mk4 1.6litre, and at 60,000 kms/37,000 miles, the water pump started failing (very common). The mechanic also did a timing belt change even though it didn't really need it, but by doing so, I would avoid a second timing belt change job at 100,000kms /62,000 miles and pulling apart the same items for the water pump. That water pump fix/timing belt replacement/service at 60,000 kms service in 2006 was THE LAST for this car, as in 2007 I sold it and brought a Japanese made Nissan Maxima, since that time, I've only had Japanese brands (my current is '12 Lexus IS350). Would never buy this Euro stuff again.
Balance that out with a "stealership" that will rip you off.
I agree. I have the same mentality when doing any repairs (home, auto, etc..) since it makes it easier down the road. I just had to replace my alternator on my HHR and I updated the serpentine belt, tensioner and upper engine mount since it was on its way out. Don't have to worry about it for a while. It hurts the pockets upfront but will save you frustration and have to revisit your pocket if something else in the same location needs replacing that was not taken care of while being serviced.
@@bernitup6492 It is beyond silly to take belts off to replace an alternator and not replace the belts. This is common sense 101.
I have often said the people that design these, SHOULD be required to work on them at least once.
As long as it's and old one with mega miles, and rusty bolts.
I don't think the engineer would care if it means they get a fat bonus for their design.
These cars today are designed to be more expensive on purpose they want you to pay through the nose for everything. A wiper blade now costs almost $20. because you have to buy it with the holder so if you have 2 in the front and one in the back it costs $60. to replace the wiper blades, on the older cars a wiper blade insert would cost about $3.00.
And they should have to beat the flat rate time. If they can't, they don't get paid.
The problem is, they don't want you to work on them. They just want you to buy a new car when something breaks.
Reminds me a bit of doing a fuel filter on my Mercedes Benz ML500 / w163 !
On these early 98-05 Benz SUVs, the genius engineers buried the multi hose attached fuel filter between the frame & body, with forward hose so tight & no slack / working room to disconnect clamps by finger pressure.
It's a nightmare difficult 6-10 hour job, absolutely insane for a consumable filter.
Clearly they either didn't think "up the road" or were solely aiming to fill the service bays, as the job scares about even 70% of DIY owners to the dealer or Indy shop.
My 1972 Datsun 510 had a plastic filter mounted on firewall.
A blind man could change it in 3 minutes.
Those were the days !
My 1987 Nissan truck and 1998 Civic still have the filter right there in the open for easy access. Why did it need to change? Must be the need for profit. Expensive brands know the owners will fork out for the expensive dealer service that they design into the car.
@@jeanclaude7018
100 % FACT.
I am able to drive 2 Mercedes I bought used for under $5,000 in perfect running condition.
Just wait for them to be at 100k miles / 10-12 years old.
The only 2 conditions is:
- Be selective don't buy one with a major component failure (engine tranny differential)
- Be willing to learn the required major services & do them DIY.
Wear item parts are DIRT CHEAP for Mercedes over 12-15 years and they last minimum 25 years & 350,000 miles & longer with good care.
As will your early Honda & Nissan !
@@psalm2forliberty577Makes sense! Let the rich eat the depreciation, but only buy from those who did the maintenance. And don't pick models known for bad flaws. Every car maker made a few mistakes.
I've heard the 5 banger Benz diesels in particular will last until the second coming.
You should look at some aircraft engineering. I worked on the CP-140 Aurora (P-3 Orion). I had to replace a display fan muffler in the cockpit (well, UNDER the cockpit). It was designed to last 25 years, which I guess was the expected life of the plane. Thing is, we keep our aircraft usually twice as long as they're designed for. I think it was the first part delivered to the assembly line, and the rest of the plane was built around it...
The only thing new for the Aurora is the name and application. It started life as the Electra. Just like the Nimrod /Comet 4.
I just have to ask what a "display fan muffler' is... It sounds like snipe-hunting for kanuuter valves and muffler bearings! 😋
@@marko7843There's a display screen on the instrument panel, old school CRT stuff, that needed cooling. The fan ducting ran under the pilot's floor. This stuff was 70s tech that we are still using, thankfully we're FINALLY replacing with the P-8A Poseidon!
@@Blowinshiddup Wow, only in the military-industrial complex... Thanks for the info!
14 Wing?
I wish more shops would mention "while you're there". Had my water pump replaced at 88K, which requires the removal of the internal timing chain. I had to tell the service advisor "while you're there", replace the chain and guides. An extra $90 today for what would otherwise be a $1200 job.
Right. This definitely should have been brought up when the customer had timing belt replaced 30,000 miles ago. This is similar to replacing water pump in Honda's when replacing timing belt.
Yep. Because as soon as you don’t, you’ll have to.
My dad was a mechanic and was a huge fan of “while you’re in there” repairs.
My teenage brain didn’t get it at the time but it sure makes sense now.
I have turned away jobs because the person didn't want to spend the money on, the water Pump, oil pump, etc while I was doing the timming belt/chain. Because I knew that the engine at say 120K or 150K was due for the oil pump and water pump to have issues and I wasn't going to do the job twice when the person came back and was like WHY DIDNT WE DO THIS WHILE WE WERE DOING THE OTHER THING!?!? Not worth the headache to take on cheap customers most of the time.
If they're not recommending it while there, they're not worth coming back. I always at least let the customer know. The service side of the industry is in shambles.
@@DA-br9xdyeah I'll be doing all that soon enough.... with a Japanese water pump.
That's on the previous shop that did the timing belt. It is well known that any Audi timing belt service from that era absolutely includes the water pump and thermostat. It even describes it in the service manual. Every 75,000 miles if I recall.
But he still wants to make a big deal about it just because the previous shop was too lazy. It's not like thermostats fail before the timing belt is due for replacement, right?
@@JulianKapathey can randomly fail any time
@JulianKapa can happen, but very rare. As they said in the video it was the original themostat in the car, which shows how long they can last. Just shouldn't be a risk that's taken for the sake of $10-$20
@@JulianKapa🤣🤦 #idiocracy
@@GTFouryet this OEM factory unit seemed to last 190k.
That's a korker. I worked on cars back in the late '70s. Thermostats, 2 bolts, 1 hose, always. We'd take the thermostat housing, lay a piece of sandpaper on some glass, and true-up the mounting surface. The mounting ears would always shine up first, then the rest of the housing. New thermostat, new gasket, done. It was always a simple, satisfying job.
Your young mechanic has a lot going for him. He absolutely is a great narrator and could easily do a successful you tube channel himself.
That alternator is in a scary location.
Was thinking the same thing haha
I can say having to change it twice in 1 week (personal experience) it is kind of a pain but took me 4 hours the first time and then 1 hour the 2nd time.
Let’s just say the car is no longer with me.
The location itself is not scary, even with the bumper on, what makes it terrifying is the bolt pattern holding it on. You cannot get those long bolts out without removing the bumper. Other models have alternators in similar locations and they arent bad at all, but they have bolt patterns that allow for removal with just removing a wheel and a inner fender liner or the like, sometimes it is just the under body plastic nonsense. This however was done with the "front end off" situation in mind. For everything on the front of the engine. Terrible design.
I have a 2006 Trailblazer, alternator is down there as well. Coincidentally, the thermostat is right behind it behind the drivers side wheel. Kind of a pain but nothing like this video.
@@hawkeye_unknown9953 this is speaking from the bottom of my heart as well. Same engine had a thermostate problem but we never addressed it because of the exact reason seen here.
The A6 and especially that engine was so nice to drive but the maintenance was a nightmare and stupid expensive.
While I like Audi, I knew by the title of the video it would be an Audi. The ones under the timing cover are ridiculous.
1st video: Nice trivial thermostat problem, no big deal.
2nd video: Changing the thermostat on an Audi S4 is a nightmare. 😂
All the V6-V8 Audi A4s are like this, aren't they? (And V10 Audi A6s.) It's just par for the course. Rear timing chains on the V8, and service position or engine out for everything. Part of Audi's superb engineering. 🙂
@@TassieLorenzoaudi as a brand does it so that the consumer needs to take it to a shop to fix it. One of the many reasons I will never buy one. Not really the engineers' choices either. I mean I cant tell you 100% if the engineers working at audi decided to put the timing chains on the rear of the engine for their own enjoyment but I can almost certainly guarantee that some "big wig" from sales or corporate position made them "design" it like that so customers would be forced to bring it back to the stealership to get fixed.
@@TassieLorenzo Timing chain V8s were introduced around 2006-2007 for most models! If you want a belt driven V8 get an earlier model.
If you wanna avoid this thermostat nightmare get one of the engines which had 4 valves per cylinder, not 5 valves. In my opinion the older Audis (pre-2000s) were a lot easier to service.
@@Krisemann I have no intention of buying any Audi! I would chance an Alfa Romeo or Jaguar because at least they have steering feel. 🙂Granted I like the feel of the hydraulic power steering on the old B5 generation, that was actually pretty good!
Audi 😂
What an amazing example of common sense repair. I am an auto technician and I only do jobs to the best of my knowledge. If anyone is in need of a solid repair job done the way it should this video is a clear example of a worthy shop. Working with some technicians who cut corners will bite you in the rear end. If you ever find a shop like the one in this video keep them and don’t let anyone else touch your car because this shop is totally legitimate. Thanks for sharing and I commend you for being one of the few honest professionals left, I would work with you anytime. God bless you and your business you truly deserve a pat on the back.❤
Here in Australia, we have the VF Commodore, the last Holden GM built before they packed up and left the country, along with all the other car manufacturers. In the V6 version, the gearbox has to be removed to replace the the thermostat, which is right at the back against the firewall, something the GM dealers were charging around $2,000 to do. Unfortunately, we've got one in the family. An independent mechanic just charged us $900 to do the same job, a bargain by comparison, but still off the planet expensive for what should be such a simple task. We also have an earlier model in the family, cost me $12 to do it myself, right there in front of me where it should be, took me about 20mins.
The Alloyjoke. Give me a 3800. I'll take the cut in KW.
2.7 Biturbo owner here! This engine absolutely is a 'while you're in there' kind of deal. Mine is a 2001 Allroad, and what started as just a timing belt job turned into a thermostat, metal coolant pipe upgrade (stock thermostat cover was plastic, ewww), new accessory belt and tensioner, new B5.5 viscous fan and clutch, and replacement of both main radiator hoses (lower was leaking, upper was turning brown and cracking).
I absolutely expect something else to break any day because lmao 22yo Audi, but the timing belt and coolant system are not on that list!
Hell yeah! I hated them when I started working on them...said I'd never buy one, they're stupid, I hate the 2.7T, who would drive a station wagon, etc. Drove a customer's 2003 Allroad for a weekend to diagnose an intermittent issue, and bought a 2001 Allroad a few days later. Here I am 9 years since that weekend and I own 2 2001 Allroads. Of course, I also have a 2000 A6 parts car and a 2001 A6 manual parts car. $1,100 in parts cars has saved me thousands.
The Jag XK8 hood struts have spring-loaded clips that allow them to be easily disconnected, which then allows the hood to be moved to fully upright. There's a hole towards the center where you can then stick a bolt or pin through to keep the hood in place. No need to endanger your scalp -- mine is equally unprotected. ;-)
Just rearrange your name slightly and you have more of what the wizard has and that’s brains he is eager to make everything in theory harder than it is. I tell you 1 thing and that’s Grimes is a genius and really shows old wizard up, even though the wizard has everything thousands of times!😂
Wizard should be thanking you for this, as he still has work to do on this one.
You want to see lunacy in thermostats ? Check out the 2019+ Subaru Forester . They have replaced the cheap thermostat which has been in cars forever with a “water control valve”. Top engineering to swap out a $50 wax thermostat with a $2000 water control valve which takes 5 hours to change - unbelievable !
Damm, glad I've stuck with my 2016 Diesel XV, it's not perfect but still has some common sense Subaru, like manual handbrake
I seem to recall that the 1984 2M4 Fiero had the easiest thermostat to replace. The "radiator" cap was located on the engine block and had a long filler neck. The thermostat was located inside this filler neck. Replacing the thermostat involved removing this "radiator" cap, remove/replace thermostat, and replace cap. No tools required. You can't get much easier than that!
V6 model too.
Wasn't always this way with Audi/VW. Their I4, I5 and V6 from the 90s and prior were not only perfectly serviceable but also durable.
The 2.8 12v had the same way to replacing the thermostat, the 30v V6 is much more reliable then the the older 12 v6, considering its almost the same block with just different heads. The 1.8t never changed in reliability, I still see some sold from A4 B6 2004 with over 485k miles on them
Not now, pure garbage!
Other then the 1.8T having timing chain problem and usually end up with new camshafts, they are quite easy to work on
@@bobba12300 1.8t don't have timing chain, they are timing belt
Sigh. The mighty have fallen. The degradation of quality from German laggardcy automakers in the last 20 years has no excuse. I'm watching this Audi engine with more tubes, pipes and moving parts than a 🚀 engine & wondering if it's really necessary...
It should be a law where new vehicles have to have common repair costs listed on the window sticker: cost for oil change, belt replacement, thermostat replacement, battery replacement, ... Then they would make them serviceable again
Tell it apple
Sounds great, but how would enforce it?
I used to work at an official VW/Audi shop for over 3 years. We once had a new A6 TDI in our shop that needed a new timing chain tensioner. It took our experienced mechanic 6 hours simply to gain access to it. He said that if he knew this before, he would simply have taken the engine out as that would have been an easier way to access it.
Excellent video!! And it makes so much sense to know how easy is to do the work on different cars, because sometimes the price to repair doesn't make too much sense!!! and we do need to know what are the best most reliable cars to buy!! fantastic video!!
My shop teacher back when I was in high school - and we are talking mid to late 80s that I was there - had a 1970s Ford F-150 with the 300 straight six. It was so easy to work on and maintain. You could do just about any repair job on that engine with simple tools and basic skills. Some cars now practically require an engineering degree from M.I.T. just to open the hood.
When I was a kid in the 90s I had a '70s Chevy pickup with a 350 V8, I could literally sit under the hood on the inner fender to work on it.
I used to stand on the ground, between the engine and and fender wells on the inline 6 trucks and cars.. @@trailrunnah8886
Yeah, but that Ford had about 100K miles life between major repairs, then you had all the access to engine and transmission to pull them out
You could pull the motor rebuild it and put it back in quicker than you can change spark plugs on these POS today
Yep I have a car the thermostat was a massive job cost alot and takes hours. What I done because it was stuck open. I had a thermostat made inside it's own housing a UK company makes them. All you do is cut the top radiator host then connect the cut ends to the thermostat. So that's now the thermostat the other one can stay stuck open now😂. It worked a treat still going strong years later now it take minutes to change with a screwdriver. They make what size you want you measure the hose and what temp you want the thermostat to open.
What kind of vehicle? That's a great idea by the way 😁
@@darksu6947 Any vehicle (but from what I gather he means 2000 Audi S4)... he said his thermostat stuck open so he relocated it to the heater hose using an aftermarket kit rather than going through the BS of doing it as shown in the video.
For those of you in the USA the company JEGs carries these housings, they're like 60~70 bucks.
My wife's 1988 Chevrolet Spectrum was so easy to service! 5 minute jobs for a fuel filter and thermostat. It was a 1.5 Isuzu engine.
Thanks CW! Great vid!
Oh it's an Audi??? Say no more!! 😅
Been there...1600$....tho everything else was replaced at the same time
Craptastic audi, over engineered shit. I don't feel bad for anyone that owns them.
I drove a 2020 A4 40TDI for 3 years. Switched back to MB with no hesitation.
The XK8 bonnet has two positions, you just need to click out the air shocks and it will extend to 90 degrees and lock in out of the way, thanks for the new video!
My wife says that she's never seen a bad looking Audi, and I agree; they make some gorgeous looking vehicles. But this video confirms what I've been warned about. I also watched a video on "I do cars", where he disassembled an Audi engine and all I could say to myself was "NO WAY!"
There are good Audi's. The old straight 5 was magnificent and easy to work on.
Keep up the most excellent work bud,
Back in 2015, i had to replace the head gasket on my son's Subaru Outback. All of the items that we could replace "while we were there" were replaced. It still runs like a champ.
The only thing worse than having to do all that again because you didn’t replace the thermostat is to do it all again because you did and it failed soon after.
We all have had junk thermostats so you always test them before installing them, but I’ve had a few that self destructed within weeks.
I have learned so much from your videos!! thanks!
This video reminds me of the time when I was in the Air Force in West Germany. It was 1970-72, I was out with a 'girl' friend, we had just left some disco when she said she thought she had seen a former boy friend, or her brother, father or some male (my German wasn't very good then) and that we should "get moving"! We were in my 1964 Chevy Impala SS and I thought, well, not many cars are going to hang with us once we get out of the 'twisties'. So I headed for the nearest stretch of straight roads. Sure enough there appeared headlights in my rearview mirror trying to keep up! I put some distance between us and then it happened. The damn engine started to overheat. We were in the mountains and I wasn't really pushing the engine that hard. I surmised that the thermostat was stuck closed! I found a place to stop got one of the few tools I had - a common screwdriver. Let the engine cool a bit, then I unscrewed the clamp on the thermostat housing, took off the hose, stuck the screwdriver into the housing and pried the thermostat up from its seat so the water could flow freely. Refitted the hose and clamp. 327 cu in so easy to work on. No loss of fluid, but also not much heat! But that was ok. The 'get away' was thrilling!! The things we did as young men. So much fun!!! Peace out...
Yea that was her husband chasing you lol
I've got an Audi S5 and I love it. But I know that I will never put a wrench to it. Thankfully I can afford to pay people to work on it. And that's what it comes down to with German cars. If you can't work on it yourself and you can't afford to pay someone to work on it, don't buy it.
This owner probably can afford it once, but may have thought the previous shop would do the job properly, but they didn't.
At least it has the aluminum thermostat pipe and not the brittle plastic one. The prior shop that did the timing service did this guy a disservice by not replacing that thermostat.
I had a q7 in for overheating. Previous shop did waterpump but didnt do thermostat. (thermostat is under the supercharger)
Buick also used plastic pipe in the same location, an Achilles heel that's guaranteed to fail.
i noticed that too. Guy upgraded to a metal thermostat housing, but didnt change the thermostat. Doesnt make sense.
Why replace something that isn't broken. If it ain't broke don't fix it. If all cars were built on the principle off a Willy's Jeep life would be a lot better
Well it's up to the customer if he or she wants it replaced the mechanic recommended replacing it but the shop isn't buying a new one for the customer lol.
Great video. Thermostat in a 2019 Cadillac XT5 3.6 ltr is also crazy.
I'm amazed at what Car Wizard has taught me about Audi. I see a lot of cars, and I've noticed that Audi has some of the best fit and finish of any car brand. The paint on them has extra pop and depth....the fitment between doors and panels tighter than most others. As a coach builder, Audi is top-notch....
But, as an engine designer, Audi engineering is overly complex, which I think causes more problems than it solves.
I'm not an engineer, but I sometimes draw pictures for them, and I know what is going on when you see something that's just doesn't make sense when it's assembled. The big issue is, the people who designed the engine have never met, talked to, or even emailed the people who designed the engine bay. And when it comes time to put it together, it's sitting on some engineer's screen, and they point out some obvious issue like this - and the bean counters say it doesn't matter, just make it work.
Great point!!
I'm a mechanical designer. I haven't worked on automotive things. However, I totally understand the different groups -working together- and finding items with interference!
Then, throw in government regulations (environmental, safety, etc.) that they have to meet, cramming even more things into an engine bay…
@@JBM425 It's more difficult to make an elegant, simple design. I think German engineers seem to realise they need some feature and then just add it wherever it will fit, instead of doing a holistic design from the beginning or spending the time and effort to do a holistic redesign to make it simple and elegant.
Exactly. You only have to look at how that pipe from the Thermostat is routed to see where the different departments were trying to marry things together.
No, this is literally the globalist handrubbers (far above the bean counters) designing things to require more shop hours and a lift, liker removing a wheel for an air filter. Stop blaming engineers for the greed of others.
I had to remove the PCV valve on our 2009 Ford Focus 2.0 which can only be done by removing the intake manifold. So, while I was there, I replaced the thermostat, upper and lower radiator hoses, replaced the plastic heater hose with a aluminum pipe, heater hoses that run under the intake manifold, removed the crankcase cover (where the PCV valve goes) cleaned it and replaced the gasket, replaced the serpentine belt, upper motor mount, idler pulley and tensioner, water pump, and cleaned the throttle body and intake manifold inside and out.
The thermostat on my 2006 Escape with the 2.3 L engine is halfway down in the front of the engine. You cannot see it from the top. It is accessed from underneath by removing the three mounting bolts of the AC compressor and pushing it out of the way. You cannot see the 3rd bolt to remove. Do it by feel. The bolts on the thermostat are hard to get to with the hoses on it. The thermostat housing is recommended to be removed with the hoses still on it because it is hard to get them off. It is very hard to see and reach to clean the surface and place the new thermostat correctly with the little valve put on top. It is a full arm’s length up to it. So I have not replaced it. The car still runs with a middle range gauge temp, and the heater works. I consider that if it is not broke, don’t fix it.
@@stevenpollard5171 The 1.6L TI-VCT engine is the same way -- fortunately the Fiesta I had at the time didn't have AC and I was able to borrow my buddy's vacuum bleeder for the coolant system since its reverse flow.
Note to self.....never buy a Ford focus
A friend and his wife have a Lincoln MKX and MKZ. The water pump is located between the intake manifold and the top of the engine. Cost to replace was $3,300! The mechanic had to remove so much stuff just to get to the water pump. He was about to sell his car! What a horrible design.
Yeah, the stellar 3.5 V6, also in the Explorer and others. Ford engine designers need to stop designing new engines on cocktail napkins at 3 a.m. after passing around the crack pipe.
Many moons ago,I was a motor mechanic.That was in the days when cars were infinitely easier to work on.The Audi featured is what we would call,in England,” taking the plss.”People who have no idea about cars,think a simple job like a thermostat can cost so much.Manufacturers don’t consider repair cost,just the price of actually making the car.
I'm a retired Audi/VW parts guy. For warranty work, at the dealer, we had to make lists of required parts (gaskets, orings, etc) for jobs like this. I had a little PTSD just watching this video 😥
I had a Renault Fuego. The thermostat was inside the upper hose. You'd remove the hose and then loosen a clamp that holds the thermostat in place and it just slides out.
I've been a Tool and Die maker for a long time. Dealing with stupid Engineers is the hardest part of the job. It's gotten a lot worse when they started using computers to design parts.
Good channel, you guys are great.
I cant believe that S4 is still running. This is the body style I worked on when I was an Audi tech.
I just always put a thermostat in whenever I did a timing belt. Didnt come in the kit though. But yes it should.
Wonder how many times turbos have been replaced? Maybe 2xs
I have one with 227k miles when I got it, OG turbos and clutch cars engine looked like it power the Titanic too. There many people with many miles above me with more miles on orginal turbos than that.
As soon as you said Audi,as I daily drive an A7 with a super charger, I totally understood 😅.
I'm so pleased my Morris Minor is so easy to work on. Mind you , there is a duplex timing chain upgrade for me to consider.
It's about £ 30 and would take me around 3- 4 hours. After all , I'm a retired electrical engineer, not a mechanic.
I did this same job on my girlfriends 2001 vw Passat 2.8 v6. Looked identical to that assembly. Did it in my garage in the service position totally crazy! I did the cheater method though where you don’t remove the timing belt. In our case the thermostat housing was corroded and leaking. It’s been working perfectly since the repair.
I was looking at an Audi RS3 but I started watching videos on replacing typical maintenance parts or parts known to fail and the amount of work that is needed got me to keep looking. What a nightmare to work on.
Mechanics: These engineers make it too difficult about ease of maintenance.
Engineers: This would be the best place for it based on our tests and meeting MPG claims.
Committee: We've decided that the budget is to be cut buy $0.50 and 3ft of wire to save materials on the entire lot of 1million units
Assembly: We have these left over bolts that are way too long... eh, we're "cost saving"
Self: Why is the bolt a 1/4" but the nut is 12mm and why is it now hitting the frame rail?
They are built to the warranty. If the part will last longer than 3/30 or whatever, it doesn't need to be serviceable.
And other engineers: We have this nice little FWD car with a 4 cylinder in it, let's see if we can shoehorn a V8 and AWD into it.
In comes the quattro GmbH: Hey, when those Audi guys can shoehorn the A8 engine into it, hows about the engine from the R8? Wouldn't that be fun?
the 4.2 V8 or the V10 hahaa@@VolkerHett
my first new car purchase was a 91 Pontiac Sunbird with a 4 cylinder. the t-stat was under the radiator cap (actually an aluminum casting bolted to the engine). the stat had a "handle" attached to it. when the cap was in place it pushed on the handle to keep it in place. when it failed, simply remove the cap and pull out the old one, drop in the new one, and put the cap back on.
My 1986 Fiero was the same way . Did not have to drain the coolant . Twist the cap off and pull the thermostat out. Less than a minute.
The thermostat on my 1997 C Class had to be the easiest replacement job I've ever done. It also is one of the few parts that's not held in by those b.s. allen screws.
One problem that can lead to hard jobs is when an engine is put in a different configuration to when it was first used. A Holden V6 has the thermostat hard against the firewall and I expect that the engine was designed to go in transverse originally where it would be easy to replace. Being longitudinal in the Holden makes it a cow -when a friend did it in his car he replaced the mounting bolts with shorter ones so it is easier to do next time.
I love my 2.7 Biturbo Audis (B5 RS4 and C5 Allroad) and actually love working on them. The position of the Thermostat makes perfectly sense function wise but you're right, the placement is probably the worst place they could come up with. Greetings from Austria 👍🏻
I have one also and love it. By many modern car standards, this is a fairly easy motor to work on and remove. To replace the accessory belt on an Alfa Quadrifoglio is almost as involved.
Same as the B5 S4, to remove the turbos, the Quadrifoglio’s engine must come out.
@@johnmac9055 true, that applies for almost any V engine with twin turbo in history except the new ones with the hot V where the Turbos sit in between the banks. Once you know a few tricks the engine out on the Audis is fairly simple, even without any help from another person.
Modern VAG is known for it. My friend, who's a car mechanic as well, bought an S6 a few years ago, he was amazed how fun it is to drive. Then, as a mechanic, he had to repair a thing or two.. Then a third one, and then after just one year he sold it. Reason? Doing anything around this car was waaaaaaaaay too time consuming for him. It just spoiled all the fun from owning it.
My Lada had a thermostat separate from the engine. A bonus was, in the winter, the engine temperature went up a few degrees. An automatic winter thermostate.
It would be great to see some interviews with the engineers who could talk about how they made their decisions. I'm sure they're smart but have to work within constraints and pressures. But how do things end up the way they do -- for better and for worse.
Unfortunately most of the poor engineering/maintenance decisions are 'bean-counter' led.
This ^
Don’t forget the challenges that engineers face trying to satisfy government environmental regulations.
Exactly. Engineers just follow the rules that the sales department and the government regulations lay out. Hardly any part of a car is designed by an engineer in 2024. Ask me how I know...
Nowadays engineers no longer have free hands to do what they want or design things they would like, because of tight budgets and ever increasing profit margins for every new product that gets released. There are very few niche companies that exist especially in the car industry where engineers are allowed to spend as much time and money as possible on designing products taking into accoung all aspects.
Check the water distribution tube in that old Chrysler motor. If it's rusted out you'll still have overheating issues. A rather common occurrence on old flatheads. Also, on older American V8s, the thermostat is almost always looking at you right out in the open. One of the easiest jobs to do if you don't break a bolt or a stud! On that Audi, before I stuck the new thermostat in I would test it in hot water first to make sure it was good.
Nothing is easier to work on than a "straight six" in full sized American cars of the '50s through the '80s. There is SO much room in the "power barn", you can actually CLIMB INTO the engine bay.
this is true especially if you're working on an old pickup with a straight six. Also a '59 Chevy (I know!)@@TheOzthewiz
Good point on the distribution tube! How much room is there required to pull it from the block? Remove the radiator for clearance?
I'd seriously think about flushing that cooling system with the amount of rust showing up!
Did you notice on that Chrysler there was a broken bolt, so an easy job can turn into more work. Had the same thing happen on my 69 Buick 350.
2013 Ford Explorer Utility. My water pump failed. I was told to take it to Ford. The way this tech did it (and I was told he did alot of them) was engine out. In fact, they dropped the entire front cradle, (engine, trans, front suspension) to replace a $140 water pump, plus all the "while your in there", like some timing components. This was done in less than 1 day.
Used to do a little work on cars with a friend. We used Haynes manuals. The standing joke between us was, when he got a Jaguar XJS, any job the first instruction "First take the engine out"
I don't think engineers even consider how hard something is to work on when they are designing these vehicles. Many of these problems are created when you try to shove more into a smaller space.
That's the real issue, designing based on space constraints set by a separate set of engineers. The engine and transmission is just some compact module to be thrown in from down below.
Not forgetting that the accountants can be poking their spreadsheets into some of these decisions
You underestimate the power of "planned obsolescence".
Yes there are multiple stakeholders when it comes to car design and engineering: the marketing people, the designers, the engineers, the people who actually put the car together, the owners, and finally the people who have to fix the car. It is literally impossible to please everyone. you can tell which cars are maintenance pigs by resale values. The ferrari 355 was notorious for this but I think those issues other than the engine out timing belt change have been massaged over and now a manual slicktop sells for far in excess of original msrp.
@@CoolHand273 Many vehicles are designed via CAD terminals. Is not quite the same as looking at the actual pieces. A good engineering department will have a maintainability group review designs. As with all things, quality of an engineering review can vary given time and manpower. Blame the personnel and accounting departments for those flaws.
Great PSA as a shop manager/owner on the “while we’re in there” now I will admit Audi’s are very difficult to service in some areas but really simple in others.. although I’m a bit biased as an multiple VW and Audi owner I can do my own work on them and mastering front carrier removal is a must .. service position is a joke it doesn’t make sense to give a few inches.. I just did a TB and all components on my ‘98 C5 a6 2.8L 30v basically same layout as your Audi here. And while I was there did all cam seals and crank seals and all new fasteners everywhere… this video shows how a simple tstat can turn into a $3000 job at a dealer and maybe a little less for an Indy shop.. great video and truth be told the hardest part of this job is getting the bumper seams to flush up properly lol
An engineer in the past often served an apprenticeship. Made a huge difference. Also they did not answer to greedy accounts like now.
Da Wizz laying on the smack down. LOL! I luv it.
Most shops don't bother with this because the customer is stupid and thinks any recommendations are things they don't actually need. I make it a point to tell my mechanic if there are any other wear parts that you need to take off, I want to address those things as well. I don't pay any extra labor just parts that way.
I had a 1982 Pontiac Phoenix (sister car to the Chevy Citation) with a 2.5L 4 cylinder. The thermostat was placed in a sort of metal extension tube of the cooling system off the engine. It had what was basically a rad cap on top of the tube. Replacing the thermostat was a no bolts removed job. Just twist the cap open (always when cooled off), grab the theromstat replace with a new one and twist the cap closed. It was a two minute or less job once the engine was cooled. Sweet!
Wish you could say the same for the oil filter on that "iron duke". That engine was originally designed for a "longitudinal" placement, NOT "transverse"!
I had a Chevy Citation!!!
i work in a factory that builds engines for one of the Big 3. We say all the time that the engineers need to spend a minimum of 3-5 yrs on the assembly line before they are allowed to make judgment calls
Wizard, I have a B5 S4 and it’s most definitely a enthusiast and spiritual driving car if you are okay with working on it yourself. I understand it’s a tremendous amount of work for a lot of parts, but for my garage car as it is. The b5 s4 series has been one of the pleasurable vehicles I ever owned. #garagecar #brilliantblack
Car Wizard, if there is one thing that I learn by watching your videos, it is which cars to never, ever own and the Audi is one that I would never own. Thank you for a great video.
Try working on Ford's 3.5L V6 when it needs a water pump replaced. You might as well replace the timing chains while you have the engine apart! Fun job!
Makes these cars cheaper for the rest of us, thanks for not buying one and keeping prices low.
Owning 3 B5 gen Audi S4s, i can say this is simply the previous shop that did the timing belt - they cut corners. While i havent seen any timing kits that include a thermostat, its common knowledge in the Audi S4 community that it gets done with the timing belt. The water pump is the same. Just do it. Do it right.
PS, love the blue.
Guys out here defending this, so they don't feel stupid about purchasing and Audi 🤣
@@blmartech nobody here feels stupid about anything. Every manufacturer has some shit designed parts/problems. Dropping $1200 for a thermostat job once every 23 years... Ain't that bad. That's the cost of 1 fuel injector on a BMW 335.
should i feel stupid for buying a camaro that if the blend door for hvac goes then dash has to come out and it cost 2 grand? @@blmartech
@@sdmc1972 I'm not sure, but GM vehicles are terribly unreliable
what vehicles arent anymore? @@blmartech
Wow I'm really impressed with the Disco's inline bubble thermostat, someone at JLR missed a trick it was supposed to be incredibly unreliable and expensive to replace in line with the overall concept.
You just made me feel so much better about the 3.6 Impala I replaced the thermostat on.
I only had to pull out the air intake, ECU right below it, lower radiator hose, heater hoses, and a coolant pipe assembly. I'd rather that again than having to do a whole timing job.
Still seems like a bit of work. I'm used to the 3.1 and 3.8 V6s, I don't think there is anything else but the two small bolts on the housing to remove.
I really like them older GM V6s, very easy to work with, on those rare occations something needs working on.
@@misterandersson5645 that it was. If I knew at the time, I would have waited until my new radiator came in and did both at the same time. All that said, whether by the new design or having more experience under the hood, I have a much easier time finding and fixing issues with the LFX than I did with my old 3800s. The extra horsepower is always welcome as well
@@JorgeFabrizio Wow, just checked the specs of that engine, quite a lot of power for such a small engine! We don't have too many GM engines of that kind here in Sweden, but I'm sure they're around. Maybe I'll look for something like that when my Chevy Lumina is done!
Somebody at Audi corporate got a bonus and a promotion 🤑
Pretty much what happens when you put a kid in front of a computer using a CAD program to design an engine, but the kid never has seen or worked on any engine before.
When I replaced the timing chain and broken tensioner on my Nissan, I replaced everything I could think that might require going back into it again. Space was limited, but doable with the engine in. The Nissan dealer tried to tell me the engine had to come out. It did not. I replaced the thermostat and water pump even though they looked good. It was the 04 Quest Van. I drove it for 2 years before selling it. I never had any issues beyond those broken timing chain guides and a bad tensioner. The dealer can suck it!
I had the B5 S4 and it was a PITA to maintain. Engine had to be pulled out a couple of times for blown turbos etc. Looked and drive really nice though. Another story is when you have to replace oil cooler seal on Mercedes OM642 and it’s tonnes of labor to reach a $5 seal buried in the middle of the V6 valley.
Done that a few times, I owned 2 2.8 Passat. The alternator is also a must replace item if it's older, I had to replace put it in "service mode" to replace it, after I had it done I thought the Car Quest reman was a bit noisey, it failed the next day! I wasn't very happy.
With the AUDI, best to replace any and everything that's mounted on the front of the engine because of the effort in disassembly to replace just the thermostat. The car is basically totaled out if it needs a thermostat. I keep cars for twenty years or more, and the secret to keeping them reliable is over maintaining them. When I sell them they are still dependable at 250,000 miles because I've already replaced everything that could break from wear.
Hey Wiz - you missed the easiest one yet - those Chevy Citations where you popped off what looked like a radiator cap and - BAM! They even provided a bail to grab onto to pull it out by!
I went through this exact process when I replaced the thermostat on my 2000 Audi A6 twin turbo. That experience convinced me to NEVER buy another Audi again. Along the way I found out it had a leaking "auxiliary water pump" that required removing the turbos, which required REMOVING THE ENGINE! That was IT! I finished the thermostat and sold that piece of sh*t.
After watching this video I’m thinking this is a genius place to put it. Yea it’s hard and expensive but best way to get the timing belt replaced is make it into the thermostat replacing job.
As usual, another great informative video. I like how you explain things in simple order. As an Audi owner, when it comes to those four rings - you have to pay to play. These machines are a mechanics nightmare. But if you know what you're doing, it'll work out in the end. Soon, I'll replacing my timing chain.
I had a 2001 Audi all road, same 2.7tt. it's a headache of a motor. Even the alternator is a full service position, front clip off and about 6 hours to do.
Really? I didn't have to take the front clip off to do mine, must be skill issue cause I did mine in 1hour 30mins. 2002 S4
Cool, now I know why my mechanic swapped the thermostat in my car when i went in for a timing belt
And manufactures wonder why some people with some cars don't get some issues fixed when they break..
Thousands in labor to replace a $30 part that does wear out and need replacement from time to time is a terrible engineering fail.
I was hoping Wizard would get to the Grand Marquis. I changed mine removing 2 bolts. I didn't even need to drain the cooling system and it just had an "o" ring for a seal. GREAT VIDEO!
Try replacing the thermostat on the Hyundai Getz. It's behind the engine under the intake manifold. Incredibly tight and it's inside plastic pipes and joints that could easily crack if not careful. For a small car and engine it's not as easy as pie.
This video explains why I got rid of my Audi A6. Taking the Front Bumper off just to perform basic Maintenance & Repairs was a big hassle. The Audi is worse than my V 12 BMW and Land Rover LR 4.
Bought my dream car a while back.
Mercedes AMG C63. Beautiful sedan that was quick as stink.
One day I needed a battery, and the guy at Advanced Auto said "who is putting it in?"
I told him I planned on doing it.
He said "no you're not"
He was right. That battery change cost me 600 dollars. 400 for the battery, 200 in labor.
I traded that car for a truck.
This reminds me of my 2007 Yaris, at 43k miles, a water pump replacement. The shop owner replaced the serperntine belt ($29) because since the original belt was showing minute signs of cracking. Since he had the original belt removed, I couldn't argue with him on this.
I don't think those serpentine belts are difficult or time consuming to remove, but at least if the coolant was drained as much as possible (if it's original), then a water pump would be worth replacing I guess. The other thing is - aftermarket parts that don't last long.
Why do car engineers HATE mechanics? Thank you for the video Car Wizard.
hate mechanics and car owners who pay for mechanics.
Hate mechanics or making sure they stay employed?
Car engineers dont hate mechanics. Literally EVERY SINGLE engineer I have met in the automotive field is also into cars and has their own army of sh*tboxes that they wrench on. Engineers dont make many of the design choices. One of my old professors used to say "50% of a car is designed by the sales department, the other 50% is designed by the government." People would ask "so then where do the engineers fit in?" His reply was always "they are just there to correct the mistakes the previous two idiots made before the car reaches the consumer"
Try a Nissan 300ZX (Z32) where the only way to get to the thermostat is to disassemble the front of the engine! I've done it more than once, and I can't remove the front of the car to get to it! Change the thermostat and everything else gets changed as well. Good video!
So much for Vorsprung durch Technik”.
The love affair with German cars realy is over, and you don't want to own one
without a good warranty.
I only bought one BMW 3 series Touring, and it had a string of issues that were done
under warranty, so i traded it in before it expired.
Since then i have bought Toyota's, but the ones today are not as good as they were.
The saying of "They don't make em like they used to" is very true.
If you are thinking of having a German car in your driveway, make sure it's LEASED !
That's a must or it will make your wallet weep!@@TheOzthewiz
Sometimes I think cars of the last decade are designed just to hold up long enough until the warranty or a lease expires.
I agree, they have got it down to a fine art as to how long certain parts will last.
Making water pumps etc from recycled plastic is asking for trouble as the plastic
ages and splits.@@JBM425
I am sure the service manual states to replace the thermostat during a belt job. It's the last mechanic's mistake that they left that old, old thermostat inside to fail.
I've been an auto technician for nearly 20 years. I have seen some absolutely idiotic engineering designs. And they're getting worse. Cars are not made to be serviced anymore. Just replaced. Cars are now engineered to be built faster. And manufacturers have no care for the service technician. Out of all the builds, Audi/VW is the worst.
I am a retired mechanic and do things for friends and neighbors. My neighbor's niece bought a 2013 BMW 535 GT twin turbo...it needed a water pump...after opening the hood I said no...
"After opening the hood I said 'No'." 😂
Try a Hummer H-3, you have to remove the driver's side wheel liner and fight your way into the thermostat which is non removable from the housing assembly. Totally stupid. I worked on F-4 , A-7 and F-16 fighters and the engineers that built them also never talked to a maintainer.
I have to do the same thing to change the battery in my Dodge Journey