People thought they were crazy for coming back. People criticized their age and questioned their abilities. People (looking especially at you, Jonathan) doubted the brilliance of Moulin Rouge. Scott and Tessa came back despite all that noise, way older than the rest of the field and went on to dominate. Flag bearers for Canada, leading their teammates to gold, obliterating Russia. Oh and becoming the most decorated figure skaters in Olympic history. They put out four iconic programs over the last two seasons, and figure skating doesn't deserve them. They truly are the greatest the world has ever seen.
Although I'm from Europe,CONGRATS to Tessa & Scott-deserved gold.Their program was the most dynamic,ive ever seen.Papadakis& Cizeron always have same routine and slow music.
If I was an ice dancer, I would much rather be known for being versatile than being known for one style. Masters of one style are champions, masters of all styles are legends
"Masters of one style are champions, masters of all styles are legends." I totally agree and couldn't have put it better. Thank you for putting that into words!
Hardly. Look no further than musical performances - Vladimir Horowitz was equally a champion as he is a legend. Jack of all trades don't become legends.
@@vanessawu1279 True I agree but as for judging in fairness to the somewhat one dimmensional French the scoring system looks at the one program you are competing. It doesn't considering that you really are doing the same program over and over again. The French will win in Beijing and even if they come second what is wrong with that. MIchelle Kwan, Irina Slutskaya, Elivis Stoiko, Patrick Chan and Brian Orser are all amazing skaters with olympic silver and no gold -- heck Kurt Browning has no medal at all . All are legends.
I dont agree that the event would have been different without the costume malfunction, that completely devalues what Tessa and Scott did in their performance which was nothing short of outstanding....Virtue and Moir have an incredible Fan base because they have earned it over the years.
I love Sandra but I wish you guys talked more about what actually happened on the ice. It was one of the most exciting confrontations in the history of ice dance and I feel that you covered men and pairs and the team event better. Still, I really love and deeply appreciate what you do.
I agree that I felt that Moulin Rouge felt way more relatable and fresher than Moonlight Sonata. I remember at the start of the season when Papadakis/Cizeron came out with their Moonlight Sonata free dance, I was floored (in a bad way). It felt old and just odd. Yes, they improved it through the season but I NEVER understood their choice, especially in an Olympic season... It felt like the judges were all exuberant for Moonlight.... but the overall global skating world (the ones in the seats) didn't connect so much to Moonlight. It fell a little flat. I also feel this way about their free dance last year. It feels like they have been trying to recreate their 1st World Championship free dance (which was brilliant and from the heart). So in comparison, Virtue and Moir had the hearts of the audience. You could tell it was their Olympic moment (consistently from short to free).
Alison - When I heard their music choice was Moonlight Sonata I was shocked. I mean, pretty gutsy to pick the music of Gordeeva and Grinkov's final Gold medal winning free dance in Lillehammer 1994. I agree that since the 2015 Worlds they have pretty much stuck to one style/pace. That's four seasons in a row. I LOVED their 2016 free dance "To Build A Home" and was thrilled that I had found a new team to follow since V/M had retired. But then their next two free dances (last season's and this year's Olympic program) were simply iterations of the 2016 program - the same lyrical/balletic style to the same pace of music, and their combination spin positions have not changed since the 2015 Worlds! I don't see any of the top 10 or even the top 20 teams repeat themselves each season like this. The French do their "signature" style very well and have a unique style and presence on the ice, but can we please see that applied to some other music or genre(s)? I got bored with them and would really love to see them do something different. I also don't understand why their coaches/choreographers have not pushed them to try new things.
@@vanessawu1279 why not the push? because p/c themselves are arrogant. they think their style is of the highest caliber of art and no one else's. everyone else's styles are beneath them. ever notice that even in the short/rhythm dances, they have to tweak the rhythm to fit them in so much a way that much of the original spirit/feel of the chosen rhythm is actually lost, instead of them pushing themselves and molding themselves to the chosen theme? they just don't have that versatility hence their hyping of themselves as "artistic" to cover up for their obvious lack of versatility (either due to creative laziness or lack of musical depth)
I think V/M clearly won. Seems like it would be much more difficult to stay in synch when your movements are fast and sharp...not long and flowing, like P/C. Personally, I like the long, flowing style better, but I think the Top 4 placement was correct. And I'm American, not Canadian. Keep up the great work, Dave and Jonathan!
Every time Jonathan tries to kick down Virtue and Moir, Sandra puts him in his place with real expertise and legitimate insight. And then he goes on to talk about how heartbreaking it was for Hubbell and Donohue to finish 4th? They practically repeated what they did at Worlds last year! I have zero time to feel bad for people who aren’t committed on the Olympic stage, and when their opponents are at their heels and they can’t fight. I was rooting hard for Madi and Zach but at this point I’m just so let down by their weaknesses over and over again.
I can't stand the revisionist history on H/D. They were never held down. They were given legitimate opportunities to advance, over and over again. They went to M-F strategically to do so. Madi fell in 2017 Nationals when they could have placed second. They were set up for bronze at 2017 Worlds after that awful, shlocky short dance (baffling to me since their 2016 short was so strong). Zach fell. They won Nationals deservedly when the Shibs made a mistake. For everyone who thinks they were slighted by not doing the team event - the long program showed why they weren't used. They fall in the big moments. It's not a conspiracy. It's not bad taste. Those two are the Sasha Cohen of ice dance. All the talent and potential, but the people who stay on their feet deserve to beat them.
Meghan Elizabeth well said. I do love Madi and Zach though, and chock and Bates (and the shibs). The shibs rose to the occasion at the Olympics, they deserved to win.
The fact that the French got those PCS scores with that costume fiasco shows how fictional those scores are. Though they would have gotten the same scores without that issue, so the right people ended up in the right place, but stop pretending that there is a clear rubric of scores for that side.
I'm starting to get over Jonathan hate for the Shibs!! It's like we know your favorite is Hub and Don but damn... He like just refuse to say good things about the Shibs and how consistent they are and they deserve it over the last few years with less mistakes and got rewarded for it.
Jonathan has his favorites (which is fine) but he refuses to say anything nice about anyone else. Shibs outperformed Hubbell and Donahue and deserved the bronze, there's nothing "sad" about that. Notice how he had not one nice thing to say about Virtue and Moir who beat his idols?
Erik P Actually, I like Dave and Jonathan very much. I just feel they are kind of harsh towards the Shibutanis. They trained hard and earned 2 medals for the US. Sure you can like another team better but no need to put others down.
bunnynorway Exactly!!! Like if Hub and Don would have skated clean and got the medal I would have been happy for them and I'm a hardcore Shibs fan and even like Chock and Bates before Hub and Don. With Dave he actually gives full reasons on what he doesn't like about the Shibs which I respect and been respecting the whole season. He doesn't let the fact that he like Hub And Don more show as bad as Jonanthan. The bad thing is I use to love some of Jonathan insights just this season he working a nerve and almost anytime he talks I'm instantly rolling my eyes with they get to dance competition. Any other time I'm like okay he's not being as biased.
Each team is responsible for what they bring on the ice. They are responsible for their costumes. Making sure your costume is sufficiently secure for the performance is just as important as making sure your skates are laced up correctly. I also believe that it was previously broken, its up to each team to have backups etc even if that meant it wasn't the costume they wanted to wear. I think it was so horrible and embarrassing Papadakis but don't think it can be used as an excuse for the final outcome. I don't believe the results would have been different, I think VM were always going to outscore the french in the SD as they have throughout the last 2 seasons. I'm sure in 4 years time P&G will have their gold.
Totally agree with everything you said, except that the French team outscored Virtue and Moir in both programs for most of this season (much to my and others' chagrin!). And Kurt Browning confirmed that Gabriella's clasp had already caused trouble in practice that week: olympics.cbc.ca/news/article/wardrobe-malfunction-leaves-french-ice-dancer-exposed-olympics.html It's an awful, horrific thing to have happen in a performance and as a former ballet dancer, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But if the costume is causing trouble the week of the Olympics, you HAVE to take care of it, and more than just sewing it in before the performance (that's what NBC commentators said she did beforehand). This level of competition requires preparation at every level.
Sorry what I meant to say was that Tessa and Scott had the season best for the SD and it definitely was the stronger of the two SD's in my opinion (not an expect just avid viewer). She said it was her worst nightmare but if thats the case why was it left to chance? I'm sure Tessa and Scott didn't leave anything to chance, maybe thats just something that comes with experience. I have just found it upsetting for Tessa and Scott (I'm from UK so pretty neutral ground) that the gold has been slightly undermined by the wardrobe malfunction. As I said, even if that was the reason they won, it was still something in their control, something that effected their ability potentially skated how they wanted, and part of the whole package required to win that they didn't take care off well enough.
Jade Douglas I totally agree with both your posts! I think that if the clasp was giving them trouble that week (which it was), then something much more than just sewing her in the costume the day of the short program should have been done. Totally agree that more experienced teams would probably not let this happen, and I've never seen it happen to V/M in the 12 years (ahhh) I've been watching them. So yes, absolutely you have to pay attention to details like this. It doesn't matter how long or hard you train or how good your coaches are or how mentally strong you are - the devil is in the details! I'm sure they were both thrown off by the costume issue in the short dance and that sucks. But no excuses for them since that SAME WEEK it had caused a problem, so they already knew. Also, many skaters use the flesh mesh for backless costumes like she had. Anyways....I'm in total agreement with you:)
thanks Jade for your analysis ....the skaters are responsible for their costumes OK .....but i have an question ? in fact to strenghten the costume ....Gaby put her dress and after a member of staff made a sewing at collar ....it was the case all the season with any problem in competition ....but this day ...the more important day in year ....the sewing was bad .....of course Gaby can't check it., because the sewing is back .... also even if i'm ok with you ..... i find this problem strange ... And also i want to said ....G/G had worked very hard this season ....and for the GPF they won the 2 programs and of course the golden medal ... For me the gold was possible !!! no chance = a president of Canadian federation in jury + the costume ...the tears of Gaby touched me very hard !!!
Are you trying to say that who ever sewed the dress did it deliberately bad that day? I don't know who sewed it, but why have a dress at all that requires you to be sewn in to be secure. The dress came un-done before they had even moved from their opening position - it didn't stand a chance to last the whole programme and I'm surprised that at the Olympics you would take that risk. At nationals Scott had safety pins to attach his SD shirt to his trousers, but they came undone during the programme, next time out they found a better solution, I don't understand why if somethings not working you don't make the necessary adjustments. I think both teams along with all others this season will have worked additionally hard, but when G/G won at GPF T/S didn't skate clean and got points deducted for it. It wasn't like they were winning against a perfect T/S in which case should have won't at the olympics. I couldn't really call it at all heading into the olympics, I believed it would come down to whoever skated clean. I felt awful for Gaby, especially when the broadcasters did the slo-mo right up close, that was bad.
Moonlight Sonata felt stale funny since everyone was saying all season that Moulin Rouge was a wrong choice and overdone when it felt so fresh at the Olympics! Tessa and Scott were PERFECTION FROM THE SC TO THE FD. END OF.
They actually won because of their SD. The french won the FD and we can't have any idea of the potential result in the SD if Gaby didn't have this problem with her dress. Obviously when, during the performance, your dress can fall out at any moment you are not 100 % focus on that performance. It was still a beautiful dance from both teams.
The french were over scored in the SD. You can't perfect presentation scores when ur obviously distracted by ur top..FACT. Over scored many pro's r even saying this not juts canadians. Even with no dress malfunction for many Tessa and Scott's SD is far superior in quality.
MrKomninakis Moonlight Sonata was also soooooo boring. And the Ed sheeran with a Latin beat over it was the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Moulin Rouge makes my body shake, my heart pound, and my soul explode. Moulin Rouge, both as a piece of music and as a FD, literally made me feel so many feelings and brought me to tears, whereas Moonlight Sonata didn't seem much like an Olympic program to me because afterwards I didn't FEEL much, other than, "well that was pleasant".
Jonathan's remarks are incorrect about how the Shibs "elected" to do both segments of the team event. Suggesting as if they stole the placements from the other two dance teams. In fact, the Shibs were "selected" by the International FS Committee Pool. It was the committee's strategic decision to build the best team possible. The team event is not taken lightly as a way for skaters to warmup and shakeout their nerves to prepare for their individual events. Ultimately, we should support everyone in our Olympic team and not tout conspiracies.
Love Sandra and her perspective. Glad you guys brought her back especially after she provided such interesting feedback on Virtue Moir v. Papadakis Cizeron after the Grand Prix Final and she was definitely right that Moulin Rouge was still evolving and would peak in February. Hope maybe in a few months once the Virtue Moir mania winds down that maybe TSL could interview them again about these last two seasons and their win at these Olympics. Your last interview of them was extremely informative with interesting questions that hadn't been asked a million times and frankly one of the best interviews anyone has done with them.
I’ve also thought that an Olympic audience in Korea would respond more to Tessa and Scott’s free dance, because Yuna Kim broke a short program world record at 2007 Worlds in her breakout event skating to music from Moulin Rouge. That program is iconic for Yuna and her Korean fans were behind Virtue and Moir immediately.
So...out of an hour & 10 minutes there is about 10-15 minutes of discussion about the actual ice dance event. The rest is spent on the problems with skating & the Olympics and Sandra’s own personal experiences. What a missed opportunity. This was the event people have been talking about for months and you could barely bring yourselves to mention it. Disappointing.
Even if it weren't about the dress, Tessa and Scott should still win no matter what. They have better SD. Their lifts and steps in the FD just tops everyone. The french's lifts are overrated, the other teams in the last group have better lifts with more difficult/creative positions, Bobrova/Soloviev, Cappellini/Lanotte and Shibsibs, their rotational and straight-line lifts are better than the french's.
LOLZ, the french always beated the Canadian at FD. Stop your shit. without Canadian bitch judge at Free, the french would have win. (The Canadian judge gave in artistic 4 times 10 to Canadian and not a single one to French... Other judges given 3~ to Canadian and 3.4~ to French. At the World the French beated the Canadian at the Free for almost 3 pts...........
You are aware that after the SD, there is a FD ? And that the FD scores higher than the SD ? V/M being better on the SD doesn't prove anything. As for P/C's lift, call them overrated but they meet the criteria to get the level 4. Wanna complain ? Write to the ISU.
I love what you guys do. I truly do. I watch every video. But could you guys maybe do another review of the Ice Dance at Pyeongchang 2018 where you talk about the Ice Dance at Pyeonchang 2018? I am not from the US, so I can't really figure much with what replays NBC shows or does not show or how Tanith White commentates on skating (she's good, I'm sure ;)) There was so much to talk about in the competition, what was good about the Shibs this time around, that battle at the top of course for silver and gold, both with great performances (what was special about them for you? Virtue/Moir's legacy? Upcoming challengers to P/C?) and (finally!) what the hell happened to Zach Donohue? Will H/D stay together, or will she pull an Aliona and come back with another partner in 4 years? Same for pairs like Weaver/Poje, Chock/Bates! What about Chock and Bates? Their performance? Will they continue? I think you could even do a special as well on who is going to go on competing in your eyes and who will call it a day ;) I really loved the men's and pairs reviews where you talked about the competition in depth, the competitors, their mindsets, their programs. Here, I really did not hear a lot from you guys on what actually happened on the ice, and you do that so brilliantly! I hope we can get the two of you talking on the Dance one more time, this was just such a momentous season for dance, it deserves a bigger closer! :D
Agree...I feel like there was hardly any talk about the actual skaters and programs outside of Tessa & Scott and the French. So many tangents and other thoughts on skating in general which is fine but I kept waiting and waiting for actual talk of the competition!!
This "pure art" is absolute nonsense. Are you telling me that what Tessa and Scott put down in their free dance wasn't art in its purest form? Just because it wasn't some artsy fartsy lyrical, doesn't make it less art. So many uninformed "fans" who just drool over one couple, but don't have the first bit of understanding of ice dance.
Totally agree. You said it perfectly. I'm so tired of reading people here and on other blogs decide what "art" is or isn't. Do we have to pick between Monet or Mapplethorpe or can we love and appreciate both and all that is in between and beyond? Is ballet the true only dance form because it's graceful? Are modern/contemporary, jazz, hip hop, breakdance, tap, swing, polka, waltz, ballroom, Latin, and bhangra therefore all inferior because, as you said, they are not "artsy fartsy lyrical"? Is only classical music true music and the rest just pedestrian NOISE? COME ON! And publications that I usually respect like the New York Times are just contributing to this conflation of dance and ice dancing and just creating more confusion around what ICE DANCING IS. Yes P/C are graceful! So are Virtue and Moir! Have people seen the range of V/M's programs over the course of their career?!? Here's what the NYT's DANCE critic has to say about FIGURE SKATING: mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/arts/dance/ice-dancing-gabriella-papadakis-guillaume-cizeron.html What a crock.
If it was art, it wasn't high art, for sure. It was over-the-top, histrionic skating, with lots of over-acting, big crescendos, eye-popping Cirque du Soleil lifts, and an extremely literal interpretation. Of course the general masses ate it up. It was one-note and easily digestible. Comparing Virtue/Moir to the French is like comparing a Thomas Kinkade painting to a Rothko or Pollock. Both technically art, but one doesn't have any depth to it, the other does.
Maybe we could start a new scoring system instead of the COP, which just makes me so tired, man. Bring back the 6.0s! It was just easier math-wise, no? And then they gave the ordinals right after. So simple! This new system would be a scale of one to ten for the whole performance based on how it feels - if it's aaaart (or not!). Forget twizzles and unison, choctaws (I mean shouldn't that word be like totally banned already?), edge work, step sequences, and def no lifts at all. I mean, they're gliding on ice, folks. It's dangerous, duh. And ice dancing is aaaart not sport! So, as a example of this new aaaart-based scoring system: 1 (Kinkade) to 10 (Rothko/Pollack) 1 (Dr. Suess) to 10 (Tolstoy, Ibsen, Faulkner) 1 (Katy Perry) to 10 (Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Brahms) You just get a number for the short and the free and then add them. That's really, really simple math. No deductions or complicated stuff like that. I gotta stick this in though cause I'm so inspired right now - Meryl Davis and Charlie White can just be called the "full-on Monet" team for what they put us all through for soooo many years. Well mostly I just left the room when they came on, but still.
Shenandoah: I don't know what histrionic skating you were watching, but I was watching Tessa and Scott. Honestly, you can appreciate the French without putting down Tessa and Scott.
V/M can easily skate Moonlight Sonata. But can you imagine P/C skate to Moulin Rouge? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH they'll obviously look funny. who will their characters be? the Dance Instructor and the pimp?
Jonathan is this sport's biggest hypocrite with no credibility. I love how he has the audacity to talk about Virtue & Moir’s fanatic following, yet he won’t dare mention that Papadakis and Cizeron have crazy mean French fans - who are blasting comments about Scott’s weight, their age and appearance, etc. As patriotic as they are, at least fans of VM are knowledgeable, long-term fans that have been observing their skating for over a decade...they're not 14 year-old bandwagoners on Twitter. He uses the TSL platform to profess his undying love for his favorites and conveniently fails to mention anything decent about their competitors. What a waste of space in this video.
I tend to disagree. Both side ubers are just terrible. Canadians also sent a lot of mean comments toward Gabi and Guilliaume mentioning them on twitter.
I do love Sandra to death, but damn she starts and stops a ton with qualification after qualification, addendum after addendum. Just SAY WHAT YOU WANT. WE LOVE YOU. She’s so sweet that she doesn’t want to offend anyone or say something inelegantly, but I’m used to the piping hot tea that Jonathan and Dave serve. ❤️
Dave, I truly appreciate your objective views and opinions. You call the performances as they play out and without bias. Thanks for posing the question about Hubbell and Donohue’s mistakes which carried over from last season. I felt sad for them and for Chock and Bates. In any event, no one can take away the fact that the Shibutanis aced their programs when it counted, and awarded another medal to USA. I’m not a fan of Virtue and Moir, but I can admit that they definitely deserved the win. I think Papadakis and Cizeron were overscored on both dances, so they were lucky. I like them in general, but they are limited to a specific style and Latin does not suit them. As for Weaver and Poje, they haven’t progressed at all, hence the reuse of an old program. I wish they had done more than just a one-trick pony. I know some people will disagree with me on this, but please don’t invite Sandra Bezic as a guest speaker again. She cannot put together a sentence in one breath. Saying one or two words... then... taking... a long pause... before... adding... next... one or two words ... to finish her sentence... is (argh!) very frustrating! Trying to carefully word a sentence should be thought out prior to (not during) speaking out loud. Okay, this has been my rave and rant.
Americans: "Tessa and Scott won! That's so amazing; we were rooting for them!!" Canadians: "TESSA AND SCOTT WERE ROBBED IN SOCHI." Americans: *backs away slowly*
Have to say, there was a huge buzz around the performance of Virtue and Moir, from people who are not the "superfans" and it didn't arise from a row of 6.0s. Likewise the French team, who are stunning. They have been able to create that interest with their own personalities and the quality of what they do. Lots of texts and emails rec'd from people who are not followers, but certainly know who these athletes are now. Stars. Their own "branding" created that. Glad the 6.0 era is over. Love you guys.
Every dance team is responsible for the quality of their costumes. Gabriella's SD costume was, in my opinion very unappealing even before it broke apart. It looked to me like a grass skirt and halter, as though they were about to dance the hula. This isn't the Ice Capades; this is the Olympics. Learn from what Nancy Kerrigan did for the Olympics. She had Vera Wang, an internationally known fashion designer make her costumes. They were extraordinary--tasteful, elegant, showing Nancy's long lines. P/C are from France, for heaven's sake; their country has the best clothing designers in the world. Hire someone who can make a beautiful costume guaranteed to hold together. That goes for their costumes for the FD, too. They were boring and looked like they were purchased at the local department store. Compare the French performance with the Russians Katya and Sergei (G&G) who skated to "Moonlight Sonata" for a second gold medal in 1994. There is no comparison. The Russians' costumes, hair style, and choreography were exquisite. They had synchronicity, musicality, harmony of emotions. Furthermore, more went wrong in P/C's SD than just costume. Gabriella messed up on one of her twizzles, and she couldn't complete one of the lifts. I think they completed only one lift. I wondered if there was something wrong with Gabriella's legs or feet that she couldn't hold on to even the most simplest of lifts. I wish them the best of luck in the future, but they were inferior to Scott and Tesse. Look at Scott and Tesse's body of work over 20 years. P/C' s short dance was suppose to be a samba?? ( I lived in Brazil for a while and they were not doing a samba.) Look up V/M's samba--now that is a great samba and a great samba costume. Or, if you want to see how another latin dance can be done, look up V/M's flamenco dance at the Olympics in 2010--one of the all time great ice dance performances. I really can't picture the French pair doing anything that varies from their "airy" choreography. I hope they do better in the future.
Jonathan complaining about v/m fans' opinions was the funniest thing, who on the earth care about what opinion v/m fans have? Isn't it a "consensus" that v/m fans are "living in their own crazy world"??? Just block them on twitter for god sake. Do you even realize that v/m has their biggest rivalry's federation president continuously throwing shades on them on public media? The first question v/m got on their post-gold press conference was didier thought judges favor them over p/c, HOW RICH Also re: skate canada knows how to do dirty. GIVE ME A SINGLE EXAMPLE. I'm not even Canadian if that matters, and Canada's attitude towards to game literally made me thought they were giving up on their own chance of gold (again). They were way too nice and always emphasize on the "great rivalry" or " amazing battle between the two top teams". PJ kwong never said a single nice thing towards v/m this season. Her words were all about how v/m & p/c have different qualities and it's hard to compare blah blah blah. Also Kurt Browning wasn't helping at all either. He was the one said "one of the top dance teams aren't gonna be at gpf" and everyone thought it's v/m cuz they were afraid of going against p/c. The only nice thing v/m got from Canadian media was Tracy said they're the goat, and then everyone was laughing about how Canadian being too Canadian.
The dress was new, or at least modified to add more to it. Kurt Browning apparently also said that they had been trouble with it during the practices. It might be a good idea for skaters to carry spare outfits to these events. That way, a dress proving to be problematic can just be changed. It's the Olympics, you have to be prepared.
I have no problem with the IJS since it contributed to the best final flight of Olympic ice dance in history. I agree that the scores are hard to comprehend, but there is nothing hard to comprehend about the quality of the programs. The essence of ice dance can never be distilled down to a headline, so it's irrelevant that we don't blast 6.0 6.0 in the morning news. The online articles need to link to videos of the performances. Ice skating will have its moment when more people watch videos and are moved by what they see. Aljona's Olympic performance needs to be seen, it cannot be adequately described in print.
I kind of get the point they're making about 6.0 though. It's not about the system, it's about how easy you make it for the casual viewer to understand that one team or another received great scores and maybe trigger a search or a youtube view based on it. It might be as simple as displaying 63.98/64 for technical and the individual PCS categories below. Somehow, showing 9.79, 9.75, 10, 9.93, 10 is more explanatory that just 59.37. Or why not show the exact protocols on the screen?
I get your point, but ice dance is more than points, be it a 6.0 or a 10 (although, it surely wouldn't hurt). The performance is what matters most and last night we witnessed 2 (arguably more) iconic performances that transcend time. Jason Brown's Riverdance didn't need the scores to become viral, after all...
Enough with the propaganda please! If you’re going to commentate, then do so quantitatively. To say that H/D’s skating is “important” and “have something to say” is unsubstantiated. How does performing a sexy routine justify those descriptions? Are H/D trying to say: 1) sex is important; and, 2) “shh, let’s get a room…” ?? If you like H/D and want to promote them, then take ownership of your preference and don’t try to mask your favoritism by criticizing the other teams. I miss Jenny Kirk.
I'm wondering if the French added all that mid-body beading to the existing dress that she'd worn all season made it a lot heavier and contributed to the mishap. It might have not been able to hold all that weight. And I agree, she should have been able to stop and fix it since it happened so early. It just felt unfair and disrespectful to P/C to make them skate rattled while holding up a dress. Horrible situation!
The timing of the competitions was great... if you have a North-American-centric view. For people in Asia not to be able to see an Asian-hosted Olympic figure skating competition in prime time is pretty sh*tty.
R J well the popular sports were timed for tv coverage for the west so that means people in asia (e.g korea,china,japan,and southeast asian countries) wont be able to watch them live since most would be at work or in school since the games are held in the morning. Which is why medal awarding events have more local audiences than the actual events themselves.
Sandra articulated what I thought about Moonlight Sonata and how it might not appeal as much to the Broader public as Moulin rouge. If you follow the sport, you know MR it it might just become the Carmen of the generation or something, but if you don't, as a lay person or a once-every-four-years fan, you haven't seen Ashley and whomever do that music a million times. It starts with a tango, that's an easy rhythm to understand and that the broad public has some basic idea of how it should look like, and it has an arc that's easy to follow. Moonlight Sonata was good the first time I saw it but it never changed or grew and the wow factor diminished each time in my opinion. Not that P & C aren't great skaters and insanely talented, and that the dress breaking wasn't awful, awful luck (I call it karma because that music cut was so aggressively bad, IMHO, but that's just me, I wasn't jinxing them or anything. ). But yeah, I liked their previous programs a lot better, and they did look nervous right from the start.
I T - I totally agree with you and the two programs after that - last seasons's and Moonlight Sonata - just didn't have the same effect at all. I really do wonder if they can do anything drastically different in theme...and if so, I'd like to see it.
Isn’t there a way to combine the technical numbers, and STILL find a way to post the artistic component “marks” and get our “brand” back? For instance, just announce the technical raw number, then flash the component points on the board like the old days. So it would be “Papadakis and Cizeron, the marks for technical merit total 63.87 points.” And then flash the 9 components on the board from each judge: “the marks for artistic impression: 10.0, 9.9, 10.0, 10.0, 10.0, 9.8 (booo!!!!! Canadian judge LOL), 9.9, 10.0, 10.0.” Drop the high and low, multiply it by a factor and call out their total points. So we get BOTH. WE GET the technical side that we like about IJS. BUT we also get the “iconic moment” part. You could even bring back 6.0, instead of 10.0, but you’d need to multiply it by a different factor. Couple things: the 10s or 6’s wouldn’t represent ordinals like the old days; they would just be points. But still hard to get. Second, I can hear people saying that it would be too confusing to multiply it by a factor for fans, but for how long did fans not really understand the ordinal system? Last, I know I proposed that the judges just post one number for components, but let’s be honest: the 5 categories are basically a sham anyway. The judges don’t use them. They just award numbers all about the same. Just award ONE number. Sorry to drone on. But I think there is a way to keep IJS, and still get back our “brand”. Call out the technical point total. Post the artistic marks. Drop hi/low, convert to points, announce the total and BAM. DONE. Thoughts?
Some people are being ridiculous. We spent years and years debating on the scores of d/w vs. v/m and v/m vs. p/c, the SD score from this Olympic is the closest thing we'll ever get to actual evidence. If this happened in the FD and the French actually won the title, it is going to be another 2002, and who is the same man behind both of the event? Also remember at GPF everyone thought China was ally with Canada just as French is with Russian? this time the Chinese judge actually put p/c much ahead. I don't think the Asian feds (China and Japan) are playing any game. You could dig things as deep as you want but if you actually trying to have a discussion I don't think you can ever ignore what happened in that SD.
The name you are looking for is Didier Gailhaguet, the President of the French Federation of Ice Sports. From Wikipedia: "Gailhaguet was a central figure in the 2002 Olympic Winter Games figure skating scandal, in which French judge Marie-Reine Le Gougne said that she had judged wrongly in the pairs competition under pressure from Gailhaguet, who was at that time the president of the French federation. Witnesses of Le Gougne's statement were Sally-Anne Stapleford (Great Britain), Britta Lindgren (Sweden), Walburga Grimm (Germany) and Jon Jackson (USA). Gailhaguet's chauffeur in Salt Lake City additionally testified to having overheard evidence of his involvement on the scandal. Le Gougne later rescinded her statement and said she had been pressured to make it. Didier Gailhaguet was excluded for any International Skating Union event for 3 years, beginning 30 April 2002, and has been excluded as an ISU council member. He resigned as president of the French Ice Sports Federation on 12 May 2004, but was re-elected to that position in December 2007." I mean, WTF?!?! ISU corruption, much? You'd think this was FIFA!
Tessa and Scott don’t need 6’s. did you see how much news coverage and social media action they have been getting over the past few weeks? Time Magazine, Buzzfeed etc all have done multiple articles. So many of their programs on CZcams jumped to over 1 millions views when they had been siting at around 100k
Oh Boohoo about her dress. I watched it live and didn’t even notice the back because of how hideous the entire dress was. It was so distracting. Even when I tried to watch the slo-mo to analyze their unsynchronized twizzles (which didn’t get any deduction whatsoever), I couldn’t take my eyes off that horrid dress. Even if they had skated completely cleanly, no way did that program deserve above 80 points. Really, Ed Shareen for a Rumba? For them to get better PCS than V/M with that short dance just shows me how corrupt the judging is.
P/C didn't get a deduction for their SD twizzles?! They were completely awful! God, no wonder people say ice dancing should be taken out of the Olympics. The judging HAS BEEN and IS STILL corrupt. Do you know who Didier Gailhaguet is? Well, he is the President of the French Federation of Ice Sports, and he has a lovely history of corruption in the 2002 Olympic pairs scandal when two gold medals had to be awarded. The entire figure skating scoring system was changed after that, but I don't know if it has made any difference. From Wikipedia: "Gailhaguet was a central figure in the 2002 Olympic Winter Games figure skating scandal, in which French judge Marie-Reine Le Gougne said that she had judged wrongly in the pairs competition under pressure from Gailhaguet, who was at that time the president of the French federation. Witnesses of Le Gougne's statement were Sally-Anne Stapleford (Great Britain), Britta Lindgren (Sweden), Walburga Grimm (Germany) and Jon Jackson (USA). Gailhaguet's chauffeur in Salt Lake City additionally testified to having overheard evidence of his involvement on the scandal. Le Gougne later rescinded her statement and said she had been pressured to make it. Didier Gailhaguet was excluded for any International Skating Union event for 3 years, beginning 30 April 2002, and has been excluded as an ISU council member. He resigned as president of the French Ice Sports Federation on 12 May 2004, but was re-elected to that position in December 2007." What crock of shit. Doesn't it seem slightly suspect that Papadakis and Cizeron had their 'meteoric' rise from 13th to 1st at the World Championships in 2015, when, in that free dance, Gabby NEVER EXTENDS HER FREE LEG? THAT gets a world championship? It's a shame too because (in my opinion) the music and the choreography of that program are gorgeous, but the skating quality is just not anywhere near the top teams in the world. It's unfortunate for P/C that they are part of this sham in ice dancing because they do have talent and a very unique presence on the ice. But raw talent and artistry are not enough. You have to have the technical ability as well and work that in seamlessly with the artistic components. And that's what Virtue and Moir have done for more than a decade - it takes time and it takes work. Rarely are such things accomplished in "meteoric" fashion.
They lost a level! And I watched it live also, and poor Gabriella spent the program trying to avoid the dress to fall down, so please... The fact that you don’t like the dress doesn’t have any impact here. And lastly it’s Ed Sheeran and not Ed Shareen.
once again I repeat. Educate yourself. Synchronization on the twizzles is not the factor for a straight deduction. You take down for that from grade of execution...
Justyna Żółkiewska “once again, I repeat myself” Didn’t see you comment that nonsense in the first place. They received high GOE for their twizzles, so I’m not sure what you’re going on about. Everyone knows levels for twizzles depend upon the number of rotations skaters achieve.
Not what I was expecting from this episode...thought there would be a real discussion about the ice dance (you could do a whole series with all kinds of skaters and coches about changes to the judging system another time!), but since that didn't happen I went back and watched the review of 2017 world's ice dance...it is quite an interesting comparison.
This review is so annoying. Too much time spent on a costume mishap that didn’t even effect the score seeing as they got an 81 for a subpar performance
You think the costume mishap did not affect their technical content? You think they were able to completely focus on their element execution when worrying about that bloody dress falling off? You're right, they weren't dinged PCS wise, but the L3 and associated GOE most likely would've been avoided.
By the next Olympics and beyond, no one will even remember the stupid costume crap. It will just be that Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir won Gold and that they are the most successful and decorated figure skaters in history. :)
Charlotte - exactly! Papadakis and Cizeron have been overscored for BOTH programs all season long, but somehow the universe intervened beautifully when Virtue and Moir won gold. If anyone on here wants to go element to element with me, BRING IT ON. Curve lift anyone? Hm...what seems harder, I ask myself? Sitting with your knees and stomach balanced on your partner who is in spread eagle (AND with his arm around your back) or your partner (also in spread eagle) with you standing on his legs as you arch your back and lift your arms? Since I'm very much so NOT an ice dancer, I wonder which one I would try if forced to and given that I don't want to injure myself permanently? What a crock of sh*t that these two curve lifts have been judged to be of EQUAL DIFFICULTY. SMH.
I can't listen to this show any more. Gave up over a year ago. The only thing to say about the SD is that it was clear evidence of the propping up of the French. The lift took two attempts to get right (if you call that right), they got too close on the twizzles (did GP let go of her foot too early?) and the performance level was tepid throughout - regardless of the reason why. And still they got higher PCS than V/M! And may I point out that before this year, P/C NEVER got above 80 in the short dance. EVER! In fact, I think their highest score was around 77 or 78 and most usually in the mid-70s, but ALL of a sudden with the release of Didier in an Olympic year, they're getting over 80 on a regular basis. Now, I ask you. This competition should never have been so close. And, finally, does ANYBODY detect ANY Latin feeling or flavor in this dance? They have 4 years now to start doing something different. Please. Enough of the same thing over and over. And it would be nice to see Gaby do some skating on her own instead of being dragged around by Guillaume who is so superior to her. They are not an even match.
Dave, you need to do some sort of "go fund me" thing and up your game; upgrade your equipment and in general, upgrade your production. You have a unique product and it deserves better.
So, insofar as Sandra’s pleas to allow the skater to stop and fix the costume at the discretion of the ref, the issue is: what if it happens in an element? Do you let them perform the element over again? If not, and they stop, do they get a zero? I feel like it IS just “tough luck honey”. If her top HAD fallen down more, the ref would have forced them to stop.
Absolutely correct. Dick Button made this same point, and analogy, on air years ago. He said, "Is it a sport or isn't it?" Why should you fall off the mountain and get a redo? If your racquet string breaks at match point down, you will likely lose the tennis match. You don't get to go get a new racquet and play the point over again.
If you think Canada deserved to win the OGM, consider how lucky we got: 1) no French judge on the free dance panel. 2) Canadian AND Japanese judge ON the Free Dance panel (the JPN judge gave Tessa and Scott straight 10s). 3) Tech panel happens to be on the stricter side, so P/C get a Level 3 step call that otherwise might have been called Level 4 by a more lenient panel. 4) Gabby’s dress breaks, POSSIBLY resulting in that Level 3 call Even with ALL OF THIS, Tessa and Scott still only won by 0.79. EVERYTHING NEEDED to go Scott and Tessa’s way in order for them to rightly be awarded the OGM, and they got it, but just barely. Thrilled for them.
From what I read there was aTurkish judge on the panel that low balled Tessa and Scott. So I think that any advantage the Canadian judge gave them was cancelled out.
Disagree that it made no difference. With two big Tessa/Scott lovers (and there were others, but just talking about these two) on the panel, ONE of their scores was always counting. My only point about the Japanese judge was consider if Japan wasn’t on the Free Dance panel and France WAS on the Free Panel. Now Canada’s scores are all being dropped for the high, and Turkey is being counted since France is being dropped for the low for Tessa and Scott. I’ll be real: if France’s chip comes out of the bag rather than the JPN judge, I think we’re talking about a silver medal for the Canadians.
what does japanese judge needs to do with anything? how about both russian and french judges on short dance and the american judge who hate v/m to death on both?
A couple things 1) Who are you three doing this analysis? Come back to me when you have put blades on your feet and attempted to jump and spin on ice. (This doesn't apply to Sandra as I googled her and saw she used to skate) 2) You talk about what surprises occurred in these games....what still boggles my mind is that the French teams lifts are level four.....The ISU needs to reevaluate this because as much as you can talk about technical ability in all the edge work of this pair you cannot use this to overcompensate for the lack of artistry in their programs. Many will disagree with my comment because artistry is subject and in the eye of the beholder, and I respect that but this is relevant to 3) Ice Dance has ALWAYS been a political sport and probably always will. BUT in this case, you cannot deny that Tessa and Scott deserved that medal. They have pushed the boundaries of ice dance for years. I remember what is was like to watch ice dance before and trust me when I tell you I always used to prefer all the other disciplines within the sports over ice dance. The main couples that changed my mind were Davis and White from the States and Tessa and Scott from Canada. They brought ice dance beyond waltz's and tangos and were catalysts for the sports huge changes over the last few years. Thus, maybe you're right. Without a costume malfunction Tessa and Scott could have become silver medalists instead. But regardless of the colour of their medal, they will be remembered as one of the greats for testing the boundaries. Cizeron and Papadakis will not.
V/M won the show that night with their short dance like they have all season. I feel P/C were way overscored that night their twizzles were off and she did have a costume malfunction so get over it boys. V/M won the gold they deserved it and P/C will get the gold this season
I'm going to disagree with you guys on 6.0 stuff. It's all arbitrary. Why is it 6.0? Why not 10.0? Why not out of 100? What about the old system makes it more accessible than the new IJS, merely than history? Why can't viewers just learn the IJS? They aren't dumb. It's not that complicated. I would argue instead that skating communicators (like you guys), broadcasters, ISU, etc. need to do a better job selling the IJs: explaining it, indicating its nuances, and showing why it is more objective than the old system (because mathematically, it is). Skating communicators need to do a better job giving average viewers a reason to tune in all season, and to understand the IJS properly. They will get used to seeing the scores, seeing the protocols etc. We skating nerds know what an 80+ in a short dance and a 120+ in a free dance mean. We have to do a better job of explaining that to the average viewer.
HDDude1981 Agree wholeheartedly with HDDude1981. Sandra’s whole 6.0 spiel was a waste of my time. I prefer the other commentator duo from Winnipeg who are excellent at analyzing the current scoring system and performances. As a viewer and enthusiast, I enjoy their honest and unbiased views. Plus, they are way fun. Enough of the past and no need to dumb down things.
I can't think of any other Olympic sport that is using an ordinal system for judging anymore? It's all adding or factoring elements and metrics up (or subtracting) and coming up with a numerical total. Even if you don't follow a sport, you see the numerical score. There is the highest score and the lowest score , and the higher means that competitor won, regardless of how the number was calculated. Communicators and broadcasters just need to shed some light on how the numbers are calculated so viewers can gauge what the number means.
Sandra is so well-informed and thoughtful, but I don't think anyone can deny that she sounds incredibly elitist and snooty. I get that she can't help the way she talks, but I really think she makes skating less accessible to the general public and from seeing this and hearing her other interviews, I can easily understand why NBC went with Tara and Johnny (despite their lack of knowledge in some areas) instead of her.
Sandra is by far my favorite guest, Dave and Jonathan. Love her perspectives of everything. I also have to say that i am a devoted fan to "TSL", but gymnastics is my number one. Both sports changed their scoring systems after the 2002 and 2004 Olympics. I miss the 10.0 system in gymnastics and the 6.0 system in figure skating, but. . . i think gymnastics got it more right with their new scoring system, than figure skating . The whole plus 3 minus 3 or now plus 6 minus 6 is just. . .blah. I think the whole scoring system needs a change and also a change in rules.
Actually the top Papadakis was wearing in the short dance was in fact new. If you compare the two dresses from the GPF and the Olympics, the top of the dress from the Olympics is darker than the one at the GPF.
My heart broke for them when the dress broke. They lost at that moment. They did win the long which I thought was correct. I think the final result was 100% correct as well.
I absolutely agree with you cherry blossom and Lisa Lemon... I believe VM should have won the FD as well... PC were certainly overscored in both of their programs most especially in the SD... and Weaver/Poje were underscored in the SD while the Shibsibs were underscored in their FD.
LOL i laugh so hard when i read the stupid comment here... French always been favorite of the competition.... and the Canadian became favorite with french right after the Short cause of outfit problem. Everyone says that the french are better at Free, they have WR and beated the Canadian at World for almost 3 pts at free. Actually VM didn t skate really better than at world but they beated their PB for each (what a joke !) P/C not been that much overmarked at SD, their PB is higher than that and without the off synch at twizzle they would have beat it. And last but not least, the fucking bitch canadian judge gave totally biased marked to both pair.. She way overscored the Canadian (in compareason of other judges) and way underscored the french (in compareason of other judges, this bitch didn t give a single 10 to the french in artistic and others judges gave 3 to 4 times 10 /5 marks)
I was crushed for Hubbell and Donohue. I hope they keep skating. I so wanted them to make the podium. It's nothing against the Shibs. I just feel like it's too....cold in a way. When they skate it's almost so rehearsed it felt cold to me. That may not make sense. Also I feel like Gabriella should have been allowed to stop. It was so early on. I get the rules, but if it's within the first 30 seconds or before the first element - will it really disrupt the program? She did handle it like a champ. I was falling a part for it. Personally all season I couldn't decide who I liked more between P/C and V/M. That night, it was V/M for me.
ChristieLily35 yeah everything was just going v/m's way that night. If you were there that day, you will see and hear the stark contrast bw the audience reactions. V/M gave it their all.
I get that the Shibs aren't everyone's cup of tea. But the skates they put out at these Olympics were their best ever. They showed more freedom, emotion, and abandon than they ever had, even with the masterpiece that was Fix You. If they can keep skating with this emotion, I hope they continue. They really hit another level in the past few weeks.
You two are really crafting a unique type of sports commentary. Although I do have a limited background in sports commentary, other than the mostly crappy stuff that's in figure skating. Even so, it's interesting to watch you grow together in this professional sense.
I know I’m late to the party here, but I recently discovered this channel and have been listening to videos during my commute. I really enjoy a lot of the perspectives and discussion and like others, expected more from this video. I specifically sought it out because I wanted to hear their thoughts on all the top ice dancers. To be fair, I only listened to half, but they seemed determined to not like V/M. Sometimes I’m not sure what the cohosts are searching for when they ask for dynamic, creative, dramatic programs and then act unimpressed with a program that is just that. Just my five years too late thoughts.
I like VM very much. I am not sure what you are getting at. I thought they were the superior team and think Moulin Rouge was amazing. Jonathan preferred the French. I thought both were great. I rewatch both programs and think Moulin Rouge was incredible. We discuss programs so many times throughout a season that you might not be picking up on some of the discussion over the course of the season. Also, other things were going on at the time that may have prevented me from raving or arguing as much. By this point, I knew Jonathan preferred the French.
Sandra is by far the worst commentator as she consistently gave misleading biased information for the entirety of her career. She liked who she liked, typically skaters for whom she choreographed programs or skaters she wished to work with. Had you been a skater she didn't care for, she would distract the audience with misinformation and snotty commentary. Not a fan Sandra, not a fan.
what is this thing going on with French Fantards saying P/C's sonata was pure art, and claiming V/M's moulin rouge was anything but art??? geez, should they not go watch ballet instead and listen to mozart for all we care? who are they to say P/C are artists and V/M are not? who are they? are they even "artists" in their resumes? HAHAHAH crazy people, crazy. i can't take it. are they coming from the school of performing arts to be able to determine what's art and what's not. give me a pencil and i'll scribble something and ill call it art. hahaha funny people
it's amazing how every winter Olympics the Americans try to pretend some Canadian gold medalists are their own. This is what happened with Virtue and Moir as it did with Sale and Pelletier
6:40 actually MFD stated that although it was the exact same costume, it was actually a new version of it she wore at Olympics and they sewed her into it before they stepped on the ice. If you have sew someone into their dress, they shouldn’t be wearing it.....
Another point about Gabi's costume (because I can't stop thinking about it!) - previously it was bare in the middle and now with the added material and beading Cizeron is grabbing material, effectively pulling on it. It's almost as if by grabbing her middle he pulled it down and put that pressure on the neckline. Such an unfortunate mishap. She should have been able to fix it without penalty. And yes, having worn it all year maybe it was weakened. Such a shame! I love that costume and program. No wonder their long fell a little flat.
Stephanie Senerchia You’re probably right! The worst thing is that they probably added that part on her midriff to prevent any possible costume deduction for showing too much skin. It hadn’t caused any problems all season long but they didn’t want to take any chances, and then... Anyway, I think she behaved like a pro, and the Rhumba pattern was exquisite.
Yes, I thought about that! She probably feared showing too much skin. And you are right, Gabi handled it like a pro. Such a horrible situation on the biggest stage.
Is Dave going for Canadian citizenship or something? Every guest has been Canadian for these Olympic recaps. I can't with Sandra - she's inherently biased and we all know it. The massive qualifications for every statement are too much.
Did the Canadians not perform pure art? Stylistically the two free programs are very different, but I would say they are both works of art. In case Moulin Rouge isn't your cup of tea, maybe have a look at V/M's free dance from last year: czcams.com/video/pNHPGEgjvtM/video.html or their Olympic gold free dance from 2010: czcams.com/video/oZG1cbrQtbQ/video.html As for the French, their 2016 program is their best, in my opinion (I just wish they would have changed things up more since then and tried something other than a lyrical/ballet style): czcams.com/video/_mX42087N4Q/video.html
so true - last year, VM decided to show that they can do the lyrical/ ballet style of the French better than PC. And VM won all season long. I think that shows that the judges have a strong preference for that style. I am so happy with the result as VM can do any style, and PC have been doing basically the same routine for the last 3 years.
Kirsten Kelly it’s not the same routine! I did enjoy the Canadians a lot in their interpretation last year yes. But they are not P/C. But the french have this special intangible quality that I’ve see only in Fontayn and Nuryev. They dance for each other expressing every single note and feeling of the music through their movement. V/M skate for the public for the show. P/C skate for the sake of transcendence because Art must have its expression in this world! They are not theatrical like V/M they don’t need to be because they are the music itself translated into movement. Art is subtle, it’s not in you’re face or just emotional it’s a sublime experience way beyond emotion itself. The french are that! They are Art on Ice. If I didn’t know that Moonlight Sonata was written many centuries ago I would say that this composition had started with P/C movement. They are so blended with it that I would think they would have created the music with their movement. That’s how sublime they are.
Vanessa Wu in my opinion no. :) but it’s always subjective yes. Tango and emotional gestures don’t have the profoundness of being the inside a music as the french were expressivo get it to the very last detail with flow in a continuous movement. I know a thing or two about dance and practices it many years and just a very few have what these to have. I would say Moonlight Sonata started with their movement their movement created Beethoven’s composition; their movement is the music itself. I did watched last year V/M long program and it was exquisite yes but they aren’t like the french. They are more tense and theatrical particle rehearsed into the music and performance. The french have that naturally. They just feel it inside their souls their hearts and express it. The reason the Canadians didn’t do a classical piece this year it’s because they knew that was dangerous to compete in the same style than the french (if they were perfect).
Luisa Rose SL What Kirsten Kelly is saying is that Moonlight Sonata is very much the same thematically as P/C's last two (or three) free programs. In 2016, when P/C premiered "To Build a Home" at the French Nationals in January (Gabriella had been out the months before with a a concussion), I was totally mesmerized by this program and watched it over and over and sent it to everyone I knew - I had never seen anything like it. When the 2016-2017 season came, I was so excited to see what they would do, and it was very similar to what they had done in "To Build a Home," but not as good, in my opinion. The same goes for Moonlight Sonata. So, since the 2015 World Championships (the Mozart program), the French team have not done anything drastically different with their free programs. Compare this to Virtue and Moir who have, since their 2006-07 season, skated to Jean Sibelius, The Umbrellas of Cherbourg, Pink Floyd, Gustav Mahler, Club des Belugas (latin/techno) and Diana Krall (blues/jazz), George Gershwin, Carmen, Alexander Glazunov, Sam Smith, and this year, Moulin Rouge. Imagine the versatility, artistry, and talent required to create fresh, beautiful, convincing, and technically difficult programs to such a range of music styles. And this is just the range of styles they mastered for the free program - their short program range is just as diverse - from flamenco to Prince! This versatility is what makes them true artists and true risk-takers and what has kept me watching them for the last 12 years straight. The French are truly unique, but thus far it seems they are good at one style at one pace, and their level of difficulty in lifts is far behind the top 10 teams in the world.
What about the Zhang’s in 2006. They went for a high risk move and got injured sad yes but their fault. Terrible luck for the French with the dress. But the judges were very generous on scoring the French Ok to get real the big fans are hanyu an a dada and Kim. Their fans are really loud
As I understand the rules. There is nothing that fell of her costume, and I don't agree with putting it under nudity rule cause it was not on purse and it was not vulgar. So no straight deduction. Yes, their score should be lower.
In the end I believe the results were right. Like Sandra how they got there may be different but the results were right. Even if the French had skated their best in the SD they were sufficiently deficient or behind that the Canadians should have won. I agree aestheticially the French are prettier. And I liked their program better but on the IJS system I can see why the Canadians won. It is not whether you like the skaters or program it is the tech and pcs. As unfair as the rules might be about stopping when an indavertent costume issue occurs. HOwever, I agree with Sandra when you look at the skate of the French it was very generously judged in the SD and really they just judged their reputation and practice. Holding up the dress and the confidence issues really put their program not even second. I am not saying the dress falling apart for Gabby was her fault but the French had errors or not as smooth. Overall though when you consider even the past sd in the olympic year the French were considerably behind the Canadians. THe FD the Canadians were closing in - they made changes and they skated the team event fd on purposely to see what hte judges thought. Yes V and M have vocal fans but so do PC just like Davis and White who being americans the size of the US had exceptionally powerful and vocal supporters. We have to be careful if we whine too much we might send dance and figure skating out of the olympics. Already there is a lot of mocking of skating.
I wish Elena Ilinykh and Nikita Katsalapov hadn't split up after the 2014 Olympic Season. Their Black Swan routine was epic. If they had stayed together, they would've likely been battling it out with V and M, and P and C for a World/Olympic title.
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but Dave, you always look like a very interested peacock to me. ;-D Maybe sometimes a very annoyed peacock. Anyway, I especially enjoyed this interview and the one with Meagan Duhamel. I'm with Jonathan on Hubbell/Donohue.
Kae yes. I was super exhausted for this show in particular and it is difficult to tell when someone is going to talk with three people because Skype flips back and forth based on which person is talking. I was just trying to make sure we got through everything.
Sorry, I shouldn't have said that. Sass doesn't always translate in text. But I can see how much time and effort it takes to run this channel, and the 3-way chat format does seem like it has limiations. But I appreciate & enjoy your content.
Sandra, must learn to speak more fluidly. I do not enjoy listening to her. I wish she would work on this, especially since she is around people that do know how to communicate effectively. She is obviously good at parts of her job, but speaking isn't one of them. + for God sake, "umm", is not a word, so stop wasting our time and making us listening to it. Her being on the panel ruins it for me. She also needs to learn to speak with more conviction! She sounds too wishy washy. And uses too many words for what it is she is trying to say. I don't have all effing day. Get to the point. Where is Dick Button, or Terry Gannon or Peter Carruthers. They speak, exactly how I like. She is a mess, she always has been in this dept.
People thought they were crazy for coming back. People criticized their age and questioned their abilities. People (looking especially at you, Jonathan) doubted the brilliance of Moulin Rouge. Scott and Tessa came back despite all that noise, way older than the rest of the field and went on to dominate. Flag bearers for Canada, leading their teammates to gold, obliterating Russia. Oh and becoming the most decorated figure skaters in Olympic history. They put out four iconic programs over the last two seasons, and figure skating doesn't deserve them. They truly are the greatest the world has ever seen.
Oh lord save us all. Every time Jonathan starts saying “as an artistic person/musician/performer” my eyes are already rolled to the back of my head.
Oh sorry he said "artistic soul". Someone shoot me in the head please
Bo Yeup haha it sounds as snobish as gabi sounded when she said we do not watch others skate
Although I'm from Europe,CONGRATS to Tessa & Scott-deserved gold.Their program was the most dynamic,ive ever seen.Papadakis& Cizeron always have same routine and slow music.
If I was an ice dancer, I would much rather be known for being versatile than being known for one style. Masters of one style are champions, masters of all styles are legends
"Masters of one style are champions, masters of all styles are legends." I totally agree and couldn't have put it better. Thank you for putting that into words!
People so conveniently forget that this is what the SD is for...
Hardly. Look no further than musical performances - Vladimir Horowitz was equally a champion as he is a legend.
Jack of all trades don't become legends.
@@vanessawu1279 True I agree but as for judging in fairness to the somewhat one dimmensional French the scoring system looks at the one program you are competing. It doesn't considering that you really are doing the same program over and over again. The French will win in Beijing and even if they come second what is wrong with that. MIchelle Kwan, Irina Slutskaya, Elivis Stoiko, Patrick Chan and Brian Orser are all amazing skaters with olympic silver and no gold -- heck Kurt Browning has no medal at all . All are legends.
@@skaterboy-cz9wj I know you meant 'individual medal', but Patrick Chan has a gold medal from the team event in Pyeongchang! :)
I dont agree that the event would have been different without the costume malfunction, that completely devalues what Tessa and Scott did in their performance which was nothing short of outstanding....Virtue and Moir have an incredible Fan base because they have earned it over the years.
I love Sandra but I wish you guys talked more about what actually happened on the ice. It was one of the most exciting confrontations in the history of ice dance and I feel that you covered men and pairs and the team event better. Still, I really love and deeply appreciate what you do.
I agree that I felt that Moulin Rouge felt way more relatable and fresher than Moonlight Sonata. I remember at the start of the season when Papadakis/Cizeron came out with their Moonlight Sonata free dance, I was floored (in a bad way). It felt old and just odd. Yes, they improved it through the season but I NEVER understood their choice, especially in an Olympic season... It felt like the judges were all exuberant for Moonlight.... but the overall global skating world (the ones in the seats) didn't connect so much to Moonlight. It fell a little flat. I also feel this way about their free dance last year. It feels like they have been trying to recreate their 1st World Championship free dance (which was brilliant and from the heart). So in comparison, Virtue and Moir had the hearts of the audience. You could tell it was their Olympic moment (consistently from short to free).
Alison - When I heard their music choice was Moonlight Sonata I was shocked. I mean, pretty gutsy to pick the music of Gordeeva and Grinkov's final Gold medal winning free dance in Lillehammer 1994. I agree that since the 2015 Worlds they have pretty much stuck to one style/pace. That's four seasons in a row. I LOVED their 2016 free dance "To Build A Home" and was thrilled that I had found a new team to follow since V/M had retired. But then their next two free dances (last season's and this year's Olympic program) were simply iterations of the 2016 program - the same lyrical/balletic style to the same pace of music, and their combination spin positions have not changed since the 2015 Worlds!
I don't see any of the top 10 or even the top 20 teams repeat themselves each season like this. The French do their "signature" style very well and have a unique style and presence on the ice, but can we please see that applied to some other music or genre(s)? I got bored with them and would really love to see them do something different. I also don't understand why their coaches/choreographers have not pushed them to try new things.
@@vanessawu1279 why not the push? because p/c themselves are arrogant. they think their style is of the highest caliber of art and no one else's. everyone else's styles are beneath them. ever notice that even in the short/rhythm dances, they have to tweak the rhythm to fit them in so much a way that much of the original spirit/feel of the chosen rhythm is actually lost, instead of them pushing themselves and molding themselves to the chosen theme? they just don't have that versatility hence their hyping of themselves as "artistic" to cover up for their obvious lack of versatility (either due to creative laziness or lack of musical depth)
I think V/M clearly won. Seems like it would be much more difficult to stay in synch when your movements are fast and sharp...not long and flowing, like P/C. Personally, I like the long, flowing style better, but I think the Top 4 placement was correct. And I'm American, not Canadian. Keep up the great work, Dave and Jonathan!
Every time Jonathan tries to kick down Virtue and Moir, Sandra puts him in his place with real expertise and legitimate insight. And then he goes on to talk about how heartbreaking it was for Hubbell and Donohue to finish 4th? They practically repeated what they did at Worlds last year! I have zero time to feel bad for people who aren’t committed on the Olympic stage, and when their opponents are at their heels and they can’t fight. I was rooting hard for Madi and Zach but at this point I’m just so let down by their weaknesses over and over again.
I can't stand the revisionist history on H/D. They were never held down. They were given legitimate opportunities to advance, over and over again. They went to M-F strategically to do so. Madi fell in 2017 Nationals when they could have placed second. They were set up for bronze at 2017 Worlds after that awful, shlocky short dance (baffling to me since their 2016 short was so strong). Zach fell. They won Nationals deservedly when the Shibs made a mistake. For everyone who thinks they were slighted by not doing the team event - the long program showed why they weren't used. They fall in the big moments. It's not a conspiracy. It's not bad taste. Those two are the Sasha Cohen of ice dance. All the talent and potential, but the people who stay on their feet deserve to beat them.
Meghan Elizabeth well said. I do love Madi and Zach though, and chock and Bates (and the shibs). The shibs rose to the occasion at the Olympics, they deserved to win.
LOL "the Sasha Cohen of ice dance". That's a good one.
The fact that the French got those PCS scores with that costume fiasco shows how fictional those scores are. Though they would have gotten the same scores without that issue, so the right people ended up in the right place, but stop pretending that there is a clear rubric of scores for that side.
I'm starting to get over Jonathan hate for the Shibs!! It's like we know your favorite is Hub and Don but damn... He like just refuse to say good things about the Shibs and how consistent they are and they deserve it over the last few years with less mistakes and got rewarded for it.
Jonathan has his favorites (which is fine) but he refuses to say anything nice about anyone else. Shibs outperformed Hubbell and Donahue and deserved the bronze, there's nothing "sad" about that. Notice how he had not one nice thing to say about Virtue and Moir who beat his idols?
I like all the us dance teams, the shibutanis skated best on that night and deserved the bronze.
Actually, Dave is fine. It's Jonathan who is the pompous/self-important one.
Erik P Actually, I like Dave and Jonathan very much. I just feel they are kind of harsh towards the Shibutanis. They trained hard and earned 2 medals for the US. Sure you can like another team better but no need to put others down.
bunnynorway Exactly!!! Like if Hub and Don would have skated clean and got the medal I would have been happy for them and I'm a hardcore Shibs fan and even like Chock and Bates before Hub and Don.
With Dave he actually gives full reasons on what he doesn't like about the Shibs which I respect and been respecting the whole season. He doesn't let the fact that he like Hub And Don more show as bad as Jonanthan. The bad thing is I use to love some of Jonathan insights just this season he working a nerve and almost anytime he talks I'm instantly rolling my eyes with they get to dance competition. Any other time I'm like okay he's not being as biased.
Each team is responsible for what they bring on the ice. They are responsible for their costumes. Making sure your costume is sufficiently secure for the performance is just as important as making sure your skates are laced up correctly. I also believe that it was previously broken, its up to each team to have backups etc even if that meant it wasn't the costume they wanted to wear. I think it was so horrible and embarrassing Papadakis but don't think it can be used as an excuse for the final outcome. I don't believe the results would have been different, I think VM were always going to outscore the french in the SD as they have throughout the last 2 seasons. I'm sure in 4 years time P&G will have their gold.
Totally agree with everything you said, except that the French team outscored Virtue and Moir in both programs for most of this season (much to my and others' chagrin!). And Kurt Browning confirmed that Gabriella's clasp had already caused trouble in practice that week: olympics.cbc.ca/news/article/wardrobe-malfunction-leaves-french-ice-dancer-exposed-olympics.html
It's an awful, horrific thing to have happen in a performance and as a former ballet dancer, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But if the costume is causing trouble the week of the Olympics, you HAVE to take care of it, and more than just sewing it in before the performance (that's what NBC commentators said she did beforehand). This level of competition requires preparation at every level.
Sorry what I meant to say was that Tessa and Scott had the season best for the SD and it definitely was the stronger of the two SD's in my opinion (not an expect just avid viewer). She said it was her worst nightmare but if thats the case why was it left to chance? I'm sure Tessa and Scott didn't leave anything to chance, maybe thats just something that comes with experience. I have just found it upsetting for Tessa and Scott (I'm from UK so pretty neutral ground) that the gold has been slightly undermined by the wardrobe malfunction. As I said, even if that was the reason they won, it was still something in their control, something that effected their ability potentially skated how they wanted, and part of the whole package required to win that they didn't take care off well enough.
Jade Douglas I totally agree with both your posts! I think that if the clasp was giving them trouble that week (which it was), then something much more than just sewing her in the costume the day of the short program should have been done. Totally agree that more experienced teams would probably not let this happen, and I've never seen it happen to V/M in the 12 years (ahhh) I've been watching them. So yes, absolutely you have to pay attention to details like this. It doesn't matter how long or hard you train or how good your coaches are or how mentally strong you are - the devil is in the details! I'm sure they were both thrown off by the costume issue in the short dance and that sucks. But no excuses for them since that SAME WEEK it had caused a problem, so they already knew. Also, many skaters use the flesh mesh for backless costumes like she had. Anyways....I'm in total agreement with you:)
thanks Jade for your analysis ....the skaters are responsible for their costumes OK .....but i have an question ? in fact to strenghten the costume ....Gaby put her dress and after a member of staff made a sewing at collar ....it was the case all the season with any problem in competition ....but this day ...the more important day in year ....the sewing was bad .....of course Gaby can't check it., because the sewing is back .... also even if i'm ok with you ..... i find this problem strange ...
And also i want to said ....G/G had worked very hard this season ....and for the GPF they won the 2 programs and of course the golden medal ...
For me the gold was possible !!! no chance = a president of Canadian federation in jury + the costume ...the tears of Gaby touched me very hard !!!
Are you trying to say that who ever sewed the dress did it deliberately bad that day? I don't know who sewed it, but why have a dress at all that requires you to be sewn in to be secure. The dress came un-done before they had even moved from their opening position - it didn't stand a chance to last the whole programme and I'm surprised that at the Olympics you would take that risk. At nationals Scott had safety pins to attach his SD shirt to his trousers, but they came undone during the programme, next time out they found a better solution, I don't understand why if somethings not working you don't make the necessary adjustments. I think both teams along with all others this season will have worked additionally hard, but when G/G won at GPF T/S didn't skate clean and got points deducted for it. It wasn't like they were winning against a perfect T/S in which case should have won't at the olympics. I couldn't really call it at all heading into the olympics, I believed it would come down to whoever skated clean. I felt awful for Gaby, especially when the broadcasters did the slo-mo right up close, that was bad.
Moonlight Sonata felt stale funny since everyone was saying all season that Moulin Rouge was a wrong choice and overdone when it felt so fresh at the Olympics! Tessa and Scott were PERFECTION FROM THE SC TO THE FD. END OF.
They actually won because of their SD. The french won the FD and we can't have any idea of the potential result in the SD if Gaby didn't have this problem with her dress. Obviously when, during the performance, your dress can fall out at any moment you are not 100 % focus on that performance. It was still a beautiful dance from both teams.
The french were over scored in the SD. You can't perfect presentation scores when ur obviously distracted by ur top..FACT. Over scored many pro's r even saying this not juts canadians. Even with no dress malfunction for many Tessa and Scott's SD is far superior in quality.
MrKomninakis Moonlight Sonata was also soooooo boring. And the Ed sheeran with a Latin beat over it was the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Moulin Rouge makes my body shake, my heart pound, and my soul explode. Moulin Rouge, both as a piece of music and as a FD, literally made me feel so many feelings and brought me to tears, whereas Moonlight Sonata didn't seem much like an Olympic program to me because afterwards I didn't FEEL much, other than, "well that was pleasant".
arthurtheaardvark13 100%agree
Chloé Favier - P/C lost because they were not good enough for gold. V/M won because they are legends. clear?
Jonathan's remarks are incorrect about how the Shibs "elected" to do both segments of the team event. Suggesting as if they stole the placements from the other two dance teams. In fact, the Shibs were "selected" by the International FS Committee Pool. It was the committee's strategic decision to build the best team possible. The team event is not taken lightly as a way for skaters to warmup and shakeout their nerves to prepare for their individual events. Ultimately, we should support everyone in our Olympic team and not tout conspiracies.
Love Sandra and her perspective. Glad you guys brought her back especially after she provided such interesting feedback on Virtue Moir v. Papadakis Cizeron after the Grand Prix Final and she was definitely right that Moulin Rouge was still evolving and would peak in February. Hope maybe in a few months once the Virtue Moir mania winds down that maybe TSL could interview them again about these last two seasons and their win at these Olympics. Your last interview of them was extremely informative with interesting questions that hadn't been asked a million times and frankly one of the best interviews anyone has done with them.
I’ve also thought that an Olympic audience in Korea would respond more to Tessa and Scott’s free dance, because Yuna Kim broke a short program world record at 2007 Worlds in her breakout event skating to music from Moulin Rouge. That program is iconic for Yuna and her Korean fans were behind Virtue and Moir immediately.
So...out of an hour & 10 minutes there is about 10-15 minutes of discussion about the actual ice dance event. The rest is spent on the problems with skating & the Olympics and Sandra’s own personal experiences. What a missed opportunity. This was the event people have been talking about for months and you could barely bring yourselves to mention it. Disappointing.
Even if it weren't about the dress, Tessa and Scott should still win no matter what. They have better SD. Their lifts and steps in the FD just tops everyone. The french's lifts are overrated, the other teams in the last group have better lifts with more difficult/creative positions, Bobrova/Soloviev, Cappellini/Lanotte and Shibsibs, their rotational and straight-line lifts are better than the french's.
LOLZ, the french always beated the Canadian at FD. Stop your shit. without Canadian bitch judge at Free, the french would have win. (The Canadian judge gave in artistic 4 times 10 to Canadian and not a single one to French... Other judges given 3~ to Canadian and 3.4~ to French. At the World the French beated the Canadian at the Free for almost 3 pts...........
Very true.. Shibs should have been in 2nd place after SD. The overscoring was ridiculous
Nolan i was just coming to the comments to find you lol. I’ve come to depend on your time stamps
Cedric L yeah? why don't you talk about the overscored SD of P/C?
You are aware that after the SD, there is a FD ? And that the FD scores higher than the SD ? V/M being better on the SD doesn't prove anything. As for P/C's lift, call them overrated but they meet the criteria to get the level 4. Wanna complain ? Write to the ISU.
I love what you guys do. I truly do. I watch every video.
But could you guys maybe do another review of the Ice Dance at Pyeongchang 2018 where you talk about the Ice Dance at Pyeonchang 2018? I am not from the US, so I can't really figure much with what replays NBC shows or does not show or how Tanith White commentates on skating (she's good, I'm sure ;))
There was so much to talk about in the competition, what was good about the Shibs this time around, that battle at the top of course for silver and gold, both with great performances (what was special about them for you? Virtue/Moir's legacy? Upcoming challengers to P/C?) and (finally!) what the hell happened to Zach Donohue? Will H/D stay together, or will she pull an Aliona and come back with another partner in 4 years? Same for pairs like Weaver/Poje, Chock/Bates! What about Chock and Bates? Their performance? Will they continue? I think you could even do a special as well on who is going to go on competing in your eyes and who will call it a day ;)
I really loved the men's and pairs reviews where you talked about the competition in depth, the competitors, their mindsets, their programs. Here, I really did not hear a lot from you guys on what actually happened on the ice, and you do that so brilliantly!
I hope we can get the two of you talking on the Dance one more time, this was just such a momentous season for dance, it deserves a bigger closer! :D
Agree...I feel like there was hardly any talk about the actual skaters and programs outside of Tessa & Scott and the French. So many tangents and other thoughts on skating in general which is fine but I kept waiting and waiting for actual talk of the competition!!
Yannik Eisenaecher Agree wholeheartedly! I usually love Sandra but this competition was almost screaming for a real recap, not a talk about IJS.
Agreed.
Again not one single positive word about Maia and Alex 🙄. Well, you guys can continue enjoying your favorite boring and human Zamboni H/D.
Skating lesson, I was hoping for more on the actual competition.
This "pure art" is absolute nonsense. Are you telling me that what Tessa and Scott put down in their free dance wasn't art in its purest form? Just because it wasn't some artsy fartsy lyrical, doesn't make it less art. So many uninformed "fans" who just drool over one couple, but don't have the first bit of understanding of ice dance.
Totally agree. You said it perfectly. I'm so tired of reading people here and on other blogs decide what "art" is or isn't. Do we have to pick between Monet or Mapplethorpe or can we love and appreciate both and all that is in between and beyond? Is ballet the true only dance form because it's graceful? Are modern/contemporary, jazz, hip hop, breakdance, tap, swing, polka, waltz, ballroom, Latin, and bhangra therefore all inferior because, as you said, they are not "artsy fartsy lyrical"? Is only classical music true music and the rest just pedestrian NOISE? COME ON!
And publications that I usually respect like the New York Times are just contributing to this conflation of dance and ice dancing and just creating more confusion around what ICE DANCING IS. Yes P/C are graceful! So are Virtue and Moir! Have people seen the range of V/M's programs over the course of their career?!? Here's what the NYT's DANCE critic has to say about FIGURE SKATING: mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/arts/dance/ice-dancing-gabriella-papadakis-guillaume-cizeron.html
What a crock.
If it was art, it wasn't high art, for sure. It was over-the-top, histrionic skating, with lots of over-acting, big crescendos, eye-popping Cirque du Soleil lifts, and an extremely literal interpretation. Of course the general masses ate it up. It was one-note and easily digestible. Comparing Virtue/Moir to the French is like comparing a Thomas Kinkade painting to a Rothko or Pollock. Both technically art, but one doesn't have any depth to it, the other does.
Maybe we could start a new scoring system instead of the COP, which just makes me so tired, man. Bring back the 6.0s! It was just easier math-wise, no? And then they gave the ordinals right after. So simple! This new system would be a scale of one to ten for the whole performance based on how it feels - if it's aaaart (or not!). Forget twizzles and unison, choctaws (I mean shouldn't that word be like totally banned already?), edge work, step sequences, and def no lifts at all. I mean, they're gliding on ice, folks. It's dangerous, duh. And ice dancing is aaaart not sport!
So, as a example of this new aaaart-based scoring system:
1 (Kinkade) to 10 (Rothko/Pollack)
1 (Dr. Suess) to 10 (Tolstoy, Ibsen, Faulkner)
1 (Katy Perry) to 10 (Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Brahms)
You just get a number for the short and the free and then add them. That's really, really simple math. No deductions or complicated stuff like that.
I gotta stick this in though cause I'm so inspired right now - Meryl Davis and Charlie White can just be called the "full-on Monet" team for what they put us all through for soooo many years. Well mostly I just left the room when they came on, but still.
Shenandoah: I don't know what histrionic skating you were watching, but I was watching Tessa and Scott. Honestly, you can appreciate the French without putting down Tessa and Scott.
But the French is much better, the Canada team looks great 2010 Olympic, but after that the connection between them look so dry in their performances.
V/M can easily skate Moonlight Sonata. But can you imagine P/C skate to Moulin Rouge? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH they'll obviously look funny. who will their characters be? the Dance Instructor and the pimp?
Such a good point.
Lol I'd love to see that. I'll grab a bag of popcorn and get ready to laugh my ass off big time.
who between p/c will be the instructor and the pimp? hahahahahaha
What a fabulous comment!
Jonathan is this sport's biggest hypocrite with no credibility. I love how he has the audacity to talk about Virtue & Moir’s fanatic following, yet he won’t dare mention that Papadakis and Cizeron have crazy mean French fans - who are blasting comments about Scott’s weight, their age and appearance, etc. As patriotic as they are, at least fans of VM are knowledgeable, long-term fans that have been observing their skating for over a decade...they're not 14 year-old bandwagoners on Twitter. He uses the TSL platform to profess his undying love for his favorites and conveniently fails to mention anything decent about their competitors. What a waste of space in this video.
I tend to disagree. Both side ubers are just terrible. Canadians also sent a lot of mean comments toward Gabi and Guilliaume mentioning them on twitter.
Justyna - you;re not getting Shelby's point. do you know how to comprehend?
I do love Sandra to death, but damn she starts and stops a ton with qualification after qualification, addendum after addendum. Just SAY WHAT YOU WANT. WE LOVE YOU. She’s so sweet that she doesn’t want to offend anyone or say something inelegantly, but I’m used to the piping hot tea that Jonathan and Dave serve. ❤️
Brent's Lucky Slot Channel Sandra doesn’t mind offending certain skaters, especially those of certain skin tones.
Brent's Lucky Slot Channel - I'm beginning to think she has ADHD.
I'm going to need the details on Sandra's turtle neck immediately.
Dave, I truly appreciate your objective views and opinions. You call the performances as they play out and without bias. Thanks for posing the question about Hubbell and Donohue’s mistakes which carried over from last season. I felt sad for them and for Chock and Bates. In any event, no one can take away the fact that the Shibutanis aced their programs when it counted, and awarded another medal to USA.
I’m not a fan of Virtue and Moir, but I can admit that they definitely deserved the win. I think Papadakis and Cizeron were overscored on both dances, so they were lucky. I like them in general, but they are limited to a specific style and Latin does not suit them. As for Weaver and Poje, they haven’t progressed at all, hence the reuse of an old program. I wish they had done more than just a one-trick pony.
I know some people will disagree with me on this, but please don’t invite Sandra Bezic as a guest speaker again. She cannot put together a sentence in one breath. Saying one or two words... then... taking... a long pause... before... adding... next... one or two words ... to finish her sentence... is (argh!) very frustrating! Trying to carefully word a sentence should be thought out prior to (not during) speaking out loud.
Okay, this has been my rave and rant.
Really like the idea of a referee in the event of a costume mishap
die-hard fans of P/C really believe their skaters were robbed of gold. ridiculous! oh come on, how are they so illogical?
32 minutes in, when do they actually talk about the competition?
I'm not a huge Shibs fans but I don't get the Hubbel/Donahue fandom. Don't get it.
Americans: "Tessa and Scott won! That's so amazing; we were rooting for them!!" Canadians: "TESSA AND SCOTT WERE ROBBED IN SOCHI." Americans: *backs away slowly*
Have to say, there was a huge buzz around the performance of Virtue and Moir, from people who are not the "superfans" and it didn't arise from a row of 6.0s. Likewise the French team, who are stunning. They have been able to create that interest with their own personalities and the quality of what they do. Lots of texts and emails rec'd from people who are not followers, but certainly know who these athletes are now. Stars. Their own "branding" created that. Glad the 6.0 era is over. Love you guys.
Every dance team is responsible for the quality of their costumes. Gabriella's SD costume was, in my opinion very unappealing even before it broke apart. It looked to me like a grass skirt and halter, as though they were about to dance the hula. This isn't the Ice Capades; this is the Olympics. Learn from what Nancy Kerrigan did for the Olympics. She had Vera Wang, an internationally known fashion designer make her costumes. They were extraordinary--tasteful, elegant, showing Nancy's long lines. P/C are from France, for heaven's sake; their country has the best clothing designers in the world. Hire someone who can make a beautiful costume guaranteed to hold together. That goes for their costumes for the FD, too. They were boring and looked like they were purchased at the local department store. Compare the French performance with the Russians Katya and Sergei (G&G) who skated to "Moonlight Sonata" for a second gold medal in 1994. There is no comparison. The Russians' costumes, hair style, and choreography were exquisite. They had synchronicity, musicality, harmony of emotions.
Furthermore, more went wrong in P/C's SD than just costume. Gabriella messed up on one of her twizzles, and she couldn't complete one of the lifts. I think they completed only one lift. I wondered if there was something wrong with Gabriella's legs or feet that she couldn't hold on to even the most simplest of lifts. I wish them the best of luck in the future, but they were inferior to Scott and Tesse. Look at Scott and Tesse's body of work over 20 years. P/C' s short dance was suppose to be a samba?? ( I lived in Brazil for a while and they were not doing a samba.) Look up V/M's samba--now that is a great samba and a great samba costume. Or, if you want to see how another latin dance can be done, look up V/M's flamenco dance at the Olympics in 2010--one of the all time great ice dance performances. I really can't picture the French pair doing anything that varies from their "airy" choreography. I hope they do better in the future.
Jonathan complaining about v/m fans' opinions was the funniest thing, who on the earth care about what opinion v/m fans have? Isn't it a "consensus" that v/m fans are "living in their own crazy world"??? Just block them on twitter for god sake. Do you even realize that v/m has their biggest rivalry's federation president continuously throwing shades on them on public media? The first question v/m got on their post-gold press conference was didier thought judges favor them over p/c, HOW RICH
Also re: skate canada knows how to do dirty. GIVE ME A SINGLE EXAMPLE.
I'm not even Canadian if that matters, and Canada's attitude towards to game literally made me thought they were giving up on their own chance of gold (again). They were way too nice and always emphasize on the "great rivalry" or " amazing battle between the two top teams". PJ kwong never said a single nice thing towards v/m this season. Her words were all about how v/m & p/c have different qualities and it's hard to compare blah blah blah. Also Kurt Browning wasn't helping at all either. He was the one said "one of the top dance teams aren't gonna be at gpf" and everyone thought it's v/m cuz they were afraid of going against p/c. The only nice thing v/m got from Canadian media was Tracy said they're the goat, and then everyone was laughing about how Canadian being too Canadian.
The dress was new, or at least modified to add more to it. Kurt Browning apparently also said that they had been trouble with it during the practices. It might be a good idea for skaters to carry spare outfits to these events. That way, a dress proving to be problematic can just be changed. It's the Olympics, you have to be prepared.
Yes!!! When I compete I have 3 programs and for each I have 2 backups for the originals. But you are correct the dress was brand new.
I have no problem with the IJS since it contributed to the best final flight of Olympic ice dance in history. I agree that the scores are hard to comprehend, but there is nothing hard to comprehend about the quality of the programs. The essence of ice dance can never be distilled down to a headline, so it's irrelevant that we don't blast 6.0 6.0 in the morning news. The online articles need to link to videos of the performances. Ice skating will have its moment when more people watch videos and are moved by what they see. Aljona's Olympic performance needs to be seen, it cannot be adequately described in print.
I kind of get the point they're making about 6.0 though. It's not about the system, it's about how easy you make it for the casual viewer to understand that one team or another received great scores and maybe trigger a search or a youtube view based on it. It might be as simple as displaying 63.98/64 for technical and the individual PCS categories below. Somehow, showing 9.79, 9.75, 10, 9.93, 10 is more explanatory that just 59.37. Or why not show the exact protocols on the screen?
I get your point, but ice dance is more than points, be it a 6.0 or a 10 (although, it surely wouldn't hurt). The performance is what matters most and last night we witnessed 2 (arguably more) iconic performances that transcend time.
Jason Brown's Riverdance didn't need the scores to become viral, after all...
Dave, you are outdoing yourself with the guests this season. Just wonderful.
I was expecting a breakdown of each team! Are you guys gonna still do that?
Enough with the propaganda please! If you’re going to commentate, then do so quantitatively. To say that H/D’s skating is “important” and “have something to say” is unsubstantiated. How does performing a sexy routine justify those descriptions? Are H/D trying to say: 1) sex is important; and, 2) “shh, let’s get a room…” ?? If you like H/D and want to promote them, then take ownership of your preference and don’t try to mask your favoritism by criticizing the other teams. I miss Jenny Kirk.
I'm wondering if the French added all that mid-body beading to the existing dress that she'd worn all season made it a lot heavier and contributed to the mishap. It might have not been able to hold all that weight. And I agree, she should have been able to stop and fix it since it happened so early. It just felt unfair and disrespectful to P/C to make them skate rattled while holding up a dress. Horrible situation!
The timing of the competitions was great... if you have a North-American-centric view. For people in Asia not to be able to see an Asian-hosted Olympic figure skating competition in prime time is pretty sh*tty.
Europeans had it the worst.
Yes, I don't get it...I think there are more people interested in figure skating in Asia and Europe than in North America
follow the (TV) money
NBC fills the IOCs coffers. NHK, CCTV, SBS don't.
R J well the popular sports were timed for tv coverage for the west so that means people in asia (e.g korea,china,japan,and southeast asian countries) wont be able to watch them live since most would be at work or in school since the games are held in the morning. Which is why medal awarding events have more local audiences than the actual events themselves.
Sandra articulated what I thought about Moonlight Sonata and how it might not appeal as much to the Broader public as Moulin rouge. If you follow the sport, you know MR it it might just become the Carmen of the generation or something, but if you don't, as a lay person or a once-every-four-years fan, you haven't seen Ashley and whomever do that music a million times. It starts with a tango, that's an easy rhythm to understand and that the broad public has some basic idea of how it should look like, and it has an arc that's easy to follow.
Moonlight Sonata was good the first time I saw it but it never changed or grew and the wow factor diminished each time in my opinion. Not that P & C aren't great skaters and insanely talented, and that the dress breaking wasn't awful, awful luck (I call it karma because that music cut was so aggressively bad, IMHO, but that's just me, I wasn't jinxing them or anything. ). But yeah, I liked their previous programs a lot better, and they did look nervous right from the start.
To Build a Home is P&C's best program.
I T - I totally agree with you and the two programs after that - last seasons's and Moonlight Sonata - just didn't have the same effect at all. I really do wonder if they can do anything drastically different in theme...and if so, I'd like to see it.
I love Sandra Bezic, she always takes care to look at every aspect and discuss the difficulties everyone faces; she doesn't just throw in criticisms.
Isn’t there a way to combine the technical numbers, and STILL find a way to post the artistic component “marks” and get our “brand” back? For instance, just announce the technical raw number, then flash the component points on the board like the old days. So it would be “Papadakis and Cizeron, the marks for technical merit total 63.87 points.” And then flash the 9 components on the board from each judge: “the marks for artistic impression: 10.0, 9.9, 10.0, 10.0, 10.0, 9.8 (booo!!!!! Canadian judge LOL), 9.9, 10.0, 10.0.” Drop the high and low, multiply it by a factor and call out their total points. So we get BOTH. WE GET the technical side that we like about IJS. BUT we also get the “iconic moment” part. You could even bring back 6.0, instead of 10.0, but you’d need to multiply it by a different factor.
Couple things: the 10s or 6’s wouldn’t represent ordinals like the old days; they would just be points. But still hard to get.
Second, I can hear people saying that it would be too confusing to multiply it by a factor for fans, but for how long did fans not really understand the ordinal system?
Last, I know I proposed that the judges just post one number for components, but let’s be honest: the 5 categories are basically a sham anyway. The judges don’t use them. They just award numbers all about the same. Just award ONE number.
Sorry to drone on. But I think there is a way to keep IJS, and still get back our “brand”. Call out the technical point total. Post the artistic marks. Drop hi/low, convert to points, announce the total and BAM. DONE.
Thoughts?
Some people are being ridiculous. We spent years and years debating on the scores of d/w vs. v/m and v/m vs. p/c, the SD score from this Olympic is the closest thing we'll ever get to actual evidence. If this happened in the FD and the French actually won the title, it is going to be another 2002, and who is the same man behind both of the event? Also remember at GPF everyone thought China was ally with Canada just as French is with Russian? this time the Chinese judge actually put p/c much ahead. I don't think the Asian feds (China and Japan) are playing any game. You could dig things as deep as you want but if you actually trying to have a discussion I don't think you can ever ignore what happened in that SD.
The name you are looking for is Didier Gailhaguet, the President of the French Federation of Ice Sports. From Wikipedia: "Gailhaguet was a central figure in the 2002 Olympic Winter Games figure skating scandal, in which French judge Marie-Reine Le Gougne said that she had judged wrongly in the pairs competition under pressure from Gailhaguet, who was at that time the president of the French federation. Witnesses of Le Gougne's statement were Sally-Anne Stapleford (Great Britain), Britta Lindgren (Sweden), Walburga Grimm (Germany) and Jon Jackson (USA). Gailhaguet's chauffeur in Salt Lake City additionally testified to having overheard evidence of his involvement on the scandal. Le Gougne later rescinded her statement and said she had been pressured to make it. Didier Gailhaguet was excluded for any International Skating Union event for 3 years, beginning 30 April 2002, and has been excluded as an ISU council member. He resigned as president of the French Ice Sports Federation on 12 May 2004, but was re-elected to that position in December 2007."
I mean, WTF?!?! ISU corruption, much? You'd think this was FIFA!
Tessa and Scott don’t need 6’s. did you see how much news coverage and social media action they have been getting over the past few weeks? Time Magazine, Buzzfeed etc all have done multiple articles. So many of their programs on CZcams jumped to over 1 millions views when they had been siting at around 100k
I generally like her, but Sandra Bezic absolutely drove me crazy in this interview. I could not watch it to the end.
Oh Boohoo about her dress. I watched it live and didn’t even notice the back because of how hideous the entire dress was. It was so distracting. Even when I tried to watch the slo-mo to analyze their unsynchronized twizzles (which didn’t get any deduction whatsoever), I couldn’t take my eyes off that horrid dress.
Even if they had skated completely cleanly, no way did that program deserve above 80 points. Really, Ed Shareen for a Rumba?
For them to get better PCS than V/M with that short dance just shows me how corrupt the judging is.
P/C didn't get a deduction for their SD twizzles?! They were completely awful! God, no wonder people say ice dancing should be taken out of the Olympics. The judging HAS BEEN and IS STILL corrupt. Do you know who Didier Gailhaguet is? Well, he is the President of the French Federation of Ice Sports, and he has a lovely history of corruption in the 2002 Olympic pairs scandal when two gold medals had to be awarded. The entire figure skating scoring system was changed after that, but I don't know if it has made any difference.
From Wikipedia: "Gailhaguet was a central figure in the 2002 Olympic Winter Games figure skating scandal, in which French judge Marie-Reine Le Gougne said that she had judged wrongly in the pairs competition under pressure from Gailhaguet, who was at that time the president of the French federation. Witnesses of Le Gougne's statement were Sally-Anne Stapleford (Great Britain), Britta Lindgren (Sweden), Walburga Grimm (Germany) and Jon Jackson (USA). Gailhaguet's chauffeur in Salt Lake City additionally testified to having overheard evidence of his involvement on the scandal. Le Gougne later rescinded her statement and said she had been pressured to make it. Didier Gailhaguet was excluded for any International Skating Union event for 3 years, beginning 30 April 2002, and has been excluded as an ISU council member. He resigned as president of the French Ice Sports Federation on 12 May 2004, but was re-elected to that position in December 2007."
What crock of shit. Doesn't it seem slightly suspect that Papadakis and Cizeron had their 'meteoric' rise from 13th to 1st at the World Championships in 2015, when, in that free dance, Gabby NEVER EXTENDS HER FREE LEG? THAT gets a world championship? It's a shame too because (in my opinion) the music and the choreography of that program are gorgeous, but the skating quality is just not anywhere near the top teams in the world. It's unfortunate for P/C that they are part of this sham in ice dancing because they do have talent and a very unique presence on the ice. But raw talent and artistry are not enough. You have to have the technical ability as well and work that in seamlessly with the artistic components. And that's what Virtue and Moir have done for more than a decade - it takes time and it takes work. Rarely are such things accomplished in "meteoric" fashion.
They lost a level! And I watched it live also, and poor Gabriella spent the program trying to avoid the dress to fall down, so please... The fact that you don’t like the dress doesn’t have any impact here. And lastly it’s Ed Sheeran and not Ed Shareen.
once again I repeat. Educate yourself. Synchronization on the twizzles is not the factor for a straight deduction. You take down for that from grade of execution...
Justyna Żółkiewska “once again, I repeat myself”
Didn’t see you comment that nonsense in the first place. They received high GOE for their twizzles, so I’m not sure what you’re going on about. Everyone knows levels for twizzles depend upon the number of rotations skaters achieve.
And what did PC get for their GOEs of those twizzles? All +2s & +3s for some reason
Not what I was expecting from this episode...thought there would be a real discussion about the ice dance (you could do a whole series with all kinds of skaters and coches about changes to the judging system another time!), but since that didn't happen I went back and watched the review of 2017 world's ice dance...it is quite an interesting comparison.
A five point deduction isnt it
Thought I was the only one. I could not get through this one. Love you guys though
This review is so annoying. Too much time spent on a costume mishap that didn’t even effect the score seeing as they got an 81 for a subpar performance
You think the costume mishap did not affect their technical content? You think they were able to completely focus on their element execution when worrying about that bloody dress falling off? You're right, they weren't dinged PCS wise, but the L3 and associated GOE most likely would've been avoided.
By the next Olympics and beyond, no one will even remember the stupid costume crap. It will just be that Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir won Gold and that they are the most successful and decorated figure skaters in history. :)
Charlotte - exactly! Papadakis and Cizeron have been overscored for BOTH programs all season long, but somehow the universe intervened beautifully when Virtue and Moir won gold. If anyone on here wants to go element to element with me, BRING IT ON. Curve lift anyone? Hm...what seems harder, I ask myself? Sitting with your knees and stomach balanced on your partner who is in spread eagle (AND with his arm around your back) or your partner (also in spread eagle) with you standing on his legs as you arch your back and lift your arms? Since I'm very much so NOT an ice dancer, I wonder which one I would try if forced to and given that I don't want to injure myself permanently? What a crock of sh*t that these two curve lifts have been judged to be of EQUAL DIFFICULTY. SMH.
actually without this outfit problem PC wouldn t have been off sych at twizzles and would have had better marks..
I can't listen to this show any more. Gave up over a year ago. The only thing to say about the SD is that it was clear evidence of the propping up of the French. The lift took two attempts to get right (if you call that right), they got too close on the twizzles (did GP let go of her foot too early?) and the performance level was tepid throughout - regardless of the reason why. And still they got higher PCS than V/M! And may I point out that before this year, P/C NEVER got above 80 in the short dance. EVER! In fact, I think their highest score was around 77 or 78 and most usually in the mid-70s, but ALL of a sudden with the release of Didier in an Olympic year, they're getting over 80 on a regular basis. Now, I ask you. This competition should never have been so close. And, finally, does ANYBODY detect ANY Latin feeling or flavor in this dance? They have 4 years now to start doing something different. Please. Enough of the same thing over and over. And it would be nice to see Gaby do some skating on her own instead of being dragged around by Guillaume who is so superior to her. They are not an even match.
Dave, you need to do some sort of "go fund me" thing and up your game; upgrade your equipment and in general, upgrade your production. You have a unique product and it deserves better.
When do they talk about Virtue/Moir? I cant get through this whole thing
So, insofar as Sandra’s pleas to allow the skater to stop and fix the costume at the discretion of the ref, the issue is: what if it happens in an element? Do you let them perform the element over again? If not, and they stop, do they get a zero? I feel like it IS just “tough luck honey”. If her top HAD fallen down more, the ref would have forced them to stop.
if it happens in skiiing ( you lose your equipment) you're done. so the same applies to figure skating. fair is fair.
Absolutely correct. Dick Button made this same point, and analogy, on air years ago. He said, "Is it a sport or isn't it?" Why should you fall off the mountain and get a redo? If your racquet string breaks at match point down, you will likely lose the tennis match. You don't get to go get a new racquet and play the point over again.
Sandra is always so damn smart. Thanks for this.
If you think Canada deserved to win the OGM, consider how lucky we got:
1) no French judge on the free dance panel.
2) Canadian AND Japanese judge ON the Free Dance panel (the JPN judge gave Tessa and Scott straight 10s).
3) Tech panel happens to be on the stricter side, so P/C get a Level 3 step call that otherwise might have been called Level 4 by a more lenient panel.
4) Gabby’s dress breaks, POSSIBLY resulting in that Level 3 call
Even with ALL OF THIS, Tessa and Scott still only won by 0.79. EVERYTHING NEEDED to go Scott and Tessa’s way in order for them to rightly be awarded the OGM, and they got it, but just barely. Thrilled for them.
Brent's Lucky Slot Channel agreed!!!!!!
Brent's Lucky Slot Channel gabby's broke on the sd right and not on the fd?
From what I read there was aTurkish judge on the panel that low balled Tessa and Scott. So I think that any advantage the Canadian judge gave them was cancelled out.
Disagree that it made no difference. With two big Tessa/Scott lovers (and there were others, but just talking about these two) on the panel, ONE of their scores was always counting.
My only point about the Japanese judge was consider if Japan wasn’t on the Free Dance panel and France WAS on the Free Panel. Now Canada’s scores are all being dropped for the high, and Turkey is being counted since France is being dropped for the low for Tessa and Scott. I’ll be real: if France’s chip comes out of the bag rather than the JPN judge, I think we’re talking about a silver medal for the Canadians.
what does japanese judge needs to do with anything? how about both russian and french judges on short dance and the american judge who hate v/m to death on both?
Yaaaas!!! Distraction from this lady's event!
A couple things
1) Who are you three doing this analysis? Come back to me when you have put blades on your feet and attempted to jump and spin on ice. (This doesn't apply to Sandra as I googled her and saw she used to skate)
2) You talk about what surprises occurred in these games....what still boggles my mind is that the French teams lifts are level four.....The ISU needs to reevaluate this because as much as you can talk about technical ability in all the edge work of this pair you cannot use this to overcompensate for the lack of artistry in their programs. Many will disagree with my comment because artistry is subject and in the eye of the beholder, and I respect that but this is relevant to
3) Ice Dance has ALWAYS been a political sport and probably always will. BUT in this case, you cannot deny that Tessa and Scott deserved that medal. They have pushed the boundaries of ice dance for years. I remember what is was like to watch ice dance before and trust me when I tell you I always used to prefer all the other disciplines within the sports over ice dance. The main couples that changed my mind were Davis and White from the States and Tessa and Scott from Canada. They brought ice dance beyond waltz's and tangos and were catalysts for the sports huge changes over the last few years. Thus, maybe you're right. Without a costume malfunction Tessa and Scott could have become silver medalists instead. But regardless of the colour of their medal, they will be remembered as one of the greats for testing the boundaries. Cizeron and Papadakis will not.
fantastic interview, but for the skype breakup... When do we get the long interview with Virtue and Moir, post-olympics?
V/M won the show that night with their short dance like they have all season. I feel P/C were way overscored that night their twizzles were off and she did have a costume malfunction so get over it boys. V/M won the gold they deserved it and P/C will get the gold this season
come on guys the reputation judging has got to stop already
I'm going to disagree with you guys on 6.0 stuff. It's all arbitrary. Why is it 6.0? Why not 10.0? Why not out of 100?
What about the old system makes it more accessible than the new IJS, merely than history?
Why can't viewers just learn the IJS? They aren't dumb. It's not that complicated.
I would argue instead that skating communicators (like you guys), broadcasters, ISU, etc. need to do a better job selling the IJs: explaining it, indicating its nuances, and showing why it is more objective than the old system (because mathematically, it is).
Skating communicators need to do a better job giving average viewers a reason to tune in all season, and to understand the IJS properly. They will get used to seeing the scores, seeing the protocols etc.
We skating nerds know what an 80+ in a short dance and a 120+ in a free dance mean. We have to do a better job of explaining that to the average viewer.
HDDude1981 Agree wholeheartedly with HDDude1981. Sandra’s whole 6.0 spiel was a waste of my time. I prefer the other commentator duo from Winnipeg who are excellent at analyzing the current scoring system and performances. As a viewer and enthusiast, I enjoy their honest and unbiased views. Plus, they are way fun.
Enough of the past and no need to dumb down things.
I can't think of any other Olympic sport that is using an ordinal system for judging anymore? It's all adding or factoring elements and metrics up (or subtracting) and coming up with a numerical total.
Even if you don't follow a sport, you see the numerical score. There is the highest score and the lowest score , and the higher means that competitor won, regardless of how the number was calculated.
Communicators and broadcasters just need to shed some light on how the numbers are calculated so viewers can gauge what the number means.
Sandra is so well-informed and thoughtful, but I don't think anyone can deny that she sounds incredibly elitist and snooty. I get that she can't help the way she talks, but I really think she makes skating less accessible to the general public and from seeing this and hearing her other interviews, I can easily understand why NBC went with Tara and Johnny (despite their lack of knowledge in some areas) instead of her.
So, blame your competitors because you cannot make a costume that stays on during your skating
I should be rhinestoning my costume for Adult Sectionals but instead I'm in bed watching this. #gooduseoftime
I should probably sew on extra hooks snaps and ties too
Sandra is by far my favorite guest, Dave and Jonathan. Love her perspectives of everything. I also have to say that i am a devoted fan to "TSL", but gymnastics is my number one. Both sports changed their scoring systems after the 2002 and 2004 Olympics. I miss the 10.0 system in gymnastics and the 6.0 system in figure skating, but. . . i think gymnastics got it more right with their new scoring system, than figure skating . The whole plus 3 minus 3 or now plus 6 minus 6 is just. . .blah. I think the whole scoring system needs a change and also a change in rules.
R J I agree, but the thing is Meagan is now retired... so she felt a bit more comfortable blatantly stating her opinions :)
Yes but the popular opinion was that tessa and scott’s SD was far superior and in the FD they had ***that*** olympic gold moment! End of.
Actually the top Papadakis was wearing in the short dance was in fact new. If you compare the two dresses from the GPF and the Olympics, the top of the dress from the Olympics is darker than the one at the GPF.
Dammit Sandra! Fix that audio! I need to hear your pearls of wisdom!!!
My heart broke for them when the dress broke. They lost at that moment. They did win the long which I thought was correct. I think the final result was 100% correct as well.
Nah V/M had the skate of their life in the FD and should have been 1st in the FS.
Exactly..V&M won the FD but the French had overblown scores for both events..
I absolutely agree with you cherry blossom and Lisa Lemon... I believe VM should have won the FD as well... PC were certainly overscored in both of their programs most especially in the SD... and Weaver/Poje were underscored in the SD while the Shibsibs were underscored in their FD.
LOL i laugh so hard when i read the stupid comment here... French always been favorite of the competition.... and the Canadian became favorite with french right after the Short cause of outfit problem. Everyone says that the french are better at Free, they have WR and beated the Canadian at World for almost 3 pts at free. Actually VM didn t skate really better than at world but they beated their PB for each (what a joke !) P/C not been that much overmarked at SD, their PB is higher than that and without the off synch at twizzle they would have beat it. And last but not least, the fucking bitch canadian judge gave totally biased marked to both pair.. She way overscored the Canadian (in compareason of other judges) and way underscored the french (in compareason of other judges, this bitch didn t give a single 10 to the french in artistic and others judges gave 3 to 4 times 10 /5 marks)
I was crushed for Hubbell and Donohue. I hope they keep skating. I so wanted them to make the podium. It's nothing against the Shibs. I just feel like it's too....cold in a way. When they skate it's almost so rehearsed it felt cold to me. That may not make sense. Also I feel like Gabriella should have been allowed to stop. It was so early on. I get the rules, but if it's within the first 30 seconds or before the first element - will it really disrupt the program? She did handle it like a champ. I was falling a part for it. Personally all season I couldn't decide who I liked more between P/C and V/M. That night, it was V/M for me.
ChristieLily35 yeah everything was just going v/m's way that night. If you were there that day, you will see and hear the stark contrast bw the audience reactions. V/M gave it their all.
I get that the Shibs aren't everyone's cup of tea. But the skates they put out at these Olympics were their best ever. They showed more freedom, emotion, and abandon than they ever had, even with the masterpiece that was Fix You. If they can keep skating with this emotion, I hope they continue. They really hit another level in the past few weeks.
Did this lady smoke a blunt before interviewing here?
You two are really crafting a unique type of sports commentary. Although I do have a limited background in sports commentary, other than the mostly crappy stuff that's in figure skating. Even so, it's interesting to watch you grow together in this professional sense.
I know I’m late to the party here, but I recently discovered this channel and have been listening to videos during my commute. I really enjoy a lot of the perspectives and discussion and like others, expected more from this video. I specifically sought it out because I wanted to hear their thoughts on all the top ice dancers. To be fair, I only listened to half, but they seemed determined to not like V/M. Sometimes I’m not sure what the cohosts are searching for when they ask for dynamic, creative, dramatic programs and then act unimpressed with a program that is just that. Just my five years too late thoughts.
I like VM very much. I am not sure what you are getting at. I thought they were the superior team and think Moulin Rouge was amazing. Jonathan preferred the French. I thought both were great. I rewatch both programs and think Moulin Rouge was incredible. We discuss programs so many times throughout a season that you might not be picking up on some of the discussion over the course of the season. Also, other things were going on at the time that may have prevented me from raving or arguing as much. By this point, I knew Jonathan preferred the French.
I only noticed the dress during the replays. I watched on CBC
It was actually a NEW dress. It was slightly different to the one used all season. The stoning was different.
Sandra is by far the worst commentator as she consistently gave misleading biased information for the entirety of her career. She liked who she liked, typically skaters for whom she choreographed programs or skaters she wished to work with. Had you been a skater she didn't care for, she would distract the audience with misinformation and snotty commentary. Not a fan Sandra, not a fan.
And thank you for all of these fantastic recaps - great guests, love love Sandra!!
what is this thing going on with French Fantards saying P/C's sonata was pure art, and claiming V/M's moulin rouge was anything but art??? geez, should they not go watch ballet instead and listen to mozart for all we care? who are they to say P/C are artists and V/M are not? who are they? are they even "artists" in their resumes? HAHAHAH crazy people, crazy. i can't take it. are they coming from the school of performing arts to be able to determine what's art and what's not. give me a pencil and i'll scribble something and ill call it art. hahaha funny people
it's amazing how every winter Olympics the Americans try to pretend some Canadian gold medalists are their own. This is what happened with Virtue and Moir as it did with Sale and Pelletier
Sandra is life
Why didn't you guys at all talk about the ladies, and the Russians?! Zagitova? MEDVEDEVA?
6:40 actually MFD stated that although it was the exact same costume, it was actually a new version of it she wore at Olympics and they sewed her into it before they stepped on the ice. If you have sew someone into their dress, they shouldn’t be wearing it.....
Another point about Gabi's costume (because I can't stop thinking about it!) - previously it was bare in the middle and now with the added material and beading Cizeron is grabbing material, effectively pulling on it. It's almost as if by grabbing her middle he pulled it down and put that pressure on the neckline. Such an unfortunate mishap. She should have been able to fix it without penalty. And yes, having worn it all year maybe it was weakened. Such a shame! I love that costume and program. No wonder their long fell a little flat.
Stephanie Senerchia You’re probably right! The worst thing is that they probably added that part on her midriff to prevent any possible costume deduction for showing too much skin. It hadn’t caused any problems all season long but they didn’t want to take any chances, and then... Anyway, I think she behaved like a pro, and the Rhumba pattern was exquisite.
Yes, I thought about that! She probably feared showing too much skin. And you are right, Gabi handled it like a pro. Such a horrible situation on the biggest stage.
I think it’s a Tonya Harding rule....lol
I'm sorry but they have lost what they call super fans.
Is Dave going for Canadian citizenship or something? Every guest has been Canadian for these Olympic recaps. I can't with Sandra - she's inherently biased and we all know it. The massive qualifications for every statement are too much.
Canadian judge lowballed P/C pretty hard both in the SD and FD. No French judge to counter that.
Qacc6- There was the US judge to counter that- she hates VM with a passion.
I've read several places that the highest and lowest scores are thrown out. Is that true?
Vanessa Wu yes, and after they do an average of the rest of the scores
Too much digressing off topic. Sandra seems very biased and all over the place
47:00 shibs
1:03:00 release
I wanted the french to win so bad! Always happy when pure art wins.
Happy for the Canadians though.
Did the Canadians not perform pure art? Stylistically the two free programs are very different, but I would say they are both works of art. In case Moulin Rouge isn't your cup of tea, maybe have a look at V/M's free dance from last year: czcams.com/video/pNHPGEgjvtM/video.html
or their Olympic gold free dance from 2010:
czcams.com/video/oZG1cbrQtbQ/video.html
As for the French, their 2016 program is their best, in my opinion (I just wish they would have changed things up more since then and tried something other than a lyrical/ballet style):
czcams.com/video/_mX42087N4Q/video.html
so true - last year, VM decided to show that they can do the lyrical/ ballet style of the French better than PC. And VM won all season long. I think that shows that the judges have a strong preference for that style. I am so happy with the result as VM can do any style, and PC have been doing basically the same routine for the last 3 years.
Kirsten Kelly it’s not the same routine!
I did enjoy the Canadians a lot in their interpretation last year yes. But they are not P/C.
But the french have this special intangible quality that I’ve see only in Fontayn and Nuryev. They dance for each other expressing every single note and feeling of the music through their movement. V/M skate for the public for the show.
P/C skate for the sake of transcendence because Art must have its expression in this world!
They are not theatrical like V/M they don’t need to be because they are the music itself translated into movement.
Art is subtle, it’s not in you’re face or just emotional it’s a sublime experience way beyond emotion itself.
The french are that! They are Art on Ice.
If I didn’t know that Moonlight Sonata was written many centuries ago I would say that this composition had started with P/C movement. They are so blended with it that I would think they would have created the music with their movement.
That’s how sublime they are.
Vanessa Wu in my opinion no. :) but it’s always subjective yes. Tango and emotional gestures don’t have the profoundness of being the inside a music as the french were expressivo get it to the very last detail with flow in a continuous movement.
I know a thing or two about dance and practices it many years and just a very few have what these to have.
I would say Moonlight Sonata started with their movement their movement created Beethoven’s composition; their movement is the music itself.
I did watched last year V/M long program and it was exquisite yes but they aren’t like the french. They are more tense and theatrical particle rehearsed into the music and performance. The french have that naturally.
They just feel it inside their souls their hearts and express it.
The reason the Canadians didn’t do a classical piece this year it’s because they knew that was dangerous to compete in the same style than the french (if they were perfect).
Luisa Rose SL What Kirsten Kelly is saying is that Moonlight Sonata is very much the same thematically as P/C's last two (or three) free programs. In 2016, when P/C premiered "To Build a Home" at the French Nationals in January (Gabriella had been out the months before with a a concussion), I was totally mesmerized by this program and watched it over and over and sent it to everyone I knew - I had never seen anything like it. When the 2016-2017 season came, I was so excited to see what they would do, and it was very similar to what they had done in "To Build a Home," but not as good, in my opinion. The same goes for Moonlight Sonata. So, since the 2015 World Championships (the Mozart program), the French team have not done anything drastically different with their free programs. Compare this to Virtue and Moir who have, since their 2006-07 season, skated to Jean Sibelius, The Umbrellas of Cherbourg, Pink Floyd, Gustav Mahler, Club des Belugas (latin/techno) and Diana Krall (blues/jazz), George Gershwin, Carmen, Alexander Glazunov, Sam Smith, and this year, Moulin Rouge. Imagine the versatility, artistry, and talent required to create fresh, beautiful, convincing, and technically difficult programs to such a range of music styles. And this is just the range of styles they mastered for the free program - their short program range is just as diverse - from flamenco to Prince! This versatility is what makes them true artists and true risk-takers and what has kept me watching them for the last 12 years straight. The French are truly unique, but thus far it seems they are good at one style at one pace, and their level of difficulty in lifts is far behind the top 10 teams in the world.
What about the Zhang’s in 2006. They went for a high risk move and got injured sad yes but their fault. Terrible luck for the French with the dress. But the judges were very generous on scoring the French
Ok to get real the big fans are hanyu an a dada and Kim. Their fans are really loud
Serious question, why didn’t the French team do a Tonya Harding and stop and ask to restart after the dress mishap?
It is a deduction, which would've killed their chances.
Cause it's a mandatory -5 for a break longer than 3 mins an -1 for every 10 second of stop
Justyna Żółkiewska thanks for clarifying! This must not have been the case back in Tonya’s day
As I understand the rules. There is nothing that fell of her costume, and I don't agree with putting it under nudity rule cause it was not on purse and it was not vulgar. So no straight deduction. Yes, their score should be lower.
Just to be clear, if the French really did a "Tonya" then Tessa Virtue wouldn't be walking right now
In the end I believe the results were right. Like Sandra how they got there may be different but the results were right. Even if the French had skated their best in the SD they were sufficiently deficient or behind that the Canadians should have won. I agree aestheticially the French are prettier. And I liked their program better but on the IJS system I can see why the Canadians won. It is not whether you like the skaters or program it is the tech and pcs. As unfair as the rules might be about stopping when an indavertent costume issue occurs. HOwever, I agree with Sandra when you look at the skate of the French it was very generously judged in the SD and really they just judged their reputation and practice. Holding up the dress and the confidence issues really put their program not even second. I am not saying the dress falling apart for Gabby was her fault but the French had errors or not as smooth. Overall though when you consider even the past sd in the olympic year the French were considerably behind the Canadians. THe FD the Canadians were closing in - they made changes and they skated the team event fd on purposely to see what hte judges thought.
Yes V and M have vocal fans but so do PC just like Davis and White who being americans the size of the US had exceptionally powerful and vocal supporters.
We have to be careful if we whine too much we might send dance and figure skating out of the olympics. Already there is a lot of mocking of skating.
I wish Elena Ilinykh and Nikita Katsalapov hadn't split up after the 2014 Olympic Season. Their Black Swan routine was epic. If they had stayed together, they would've likely been battling it out with V and M, and P and C for a World/Olympic title.
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but Dave, you always look like a very interested peacock to me. ;-D Maybe sometimes a very annoyed peacock. Anyway, I especially enjoyed this interview and the one with Meagan Duhamel. I'm with Jonathan on Hubbell/Donohue.
Kae yes. I was super exhausted for this show in particular and it is difficult to tell when someone is going to talk with three people because Skype flips back and forth based on which person is talking. I was just trying to make sure we got through everything.
I did see the footage from this and think “oh dear”
Sorry, I shouldn't have said that. Sass doesn't always translate in text. But I can see how much time and effort it takes to run this channel, and the 3-way chat format does seem like it has limiations. But I appreciate & enjoy your content.
Sandra, must learn to speak more fluidly. I do not enjoy listening to her. I wish she would work on this, especially since she is around people that do know how to communicate effectively. She is obviously good at parts of her job, but speaking isn't one of them. + for God sake, "umm", is not a word, so stop wasting our time and making us listening to it. Her being on the panel ruins it for me. She also needs to learn to speak with more conviction! She sounds too wishy washy. And uses too many words for what it is she is trying to say. I don't have all effing day. Get to the point. Where is Dick Button, or Terry Gannon or Peter Carruthers. They speak, exactly how I like. She is a mess, she always has been in this dept.