Elder Bednar | Is “Free Agency” truly free?
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In this episode Hayden learns from Elder David A. Bednar about the nature of Moral Agency. He shares what the Book of Mormon has to say on the subject as well.
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Freedom is not the right to choose. Freedom is the result of proper choices.
@@scottscales3135 I would check out 2 ne 2:26-27. Although it is true that unrighteous use of freedom leads to loss of freedom. Righteous use of freedom leads to maintained freedom as well as liberty. You will see the term used consistently throughout the scriptures in this way. There is often an equivalence formed between freedom and free will, but rights, liberty, freedom, and privilege tend to be listed as separate things.
And who gets to choose what’s proper? 😂
Chosing to sin is losing your agency, when I made bad chooses I felt more heavy and.more sorrowful I hated myself. Following Christ is actually freeing to my heart and soul ❤
Moral agency = power and Liberty. Choosing Christ and His laws brings freedom from lesser choices. Love this! 🎉
No one had an issue about the word “free agency” in terms of what it meant. It was simple. Free Will. A eternal law.
To me what Elder Bednar says here is confusing. And it’s probably because he isn’t even using the definition of Free Will… which is literally what the scriptures are talking about.
People can and always will do “whatever they want”. Sometimes what we want is to follow God! That’s actually our goal.
I don’t like the splitting hairs going on in this terminology.
“I don’t have individual agency anymore only representative” what? I literally choose every single day to follow Christ. And I want to!
If there wasn’t an option to NOT follow then that wouldn’t be agency. We are not forced to keep our covenants because “it’s the only option” we don’t keep it because of fear of “consequences” and we don’t just keep it because it’s a commitment and “obligation” we keep our covenants with God because we LOVE HIM and we CHOOSE to. If it wasn’t a choice what’s the value in that?
He is saying that we choose to do right. It seems to me , we chose in the premortal existence. He didn't say you'd quit sinning right away. We made at all repent every single day. For we are imperfect. But we must always remember our covenants .@@igoldenknight2169
Moral agency is the more doctrinal and accurate term (D&C 101:78). We have the ability to choose between good and evil, not the ability to choose to do whatever you want (eg, I can’t chose to grow wings and fly, but I can chose to steal or not and will be held accountable depending on what I do).
As we come to know more concerning good and evil, our agency expands because we know how we should act and we do accordingly.
Someone asked me once: "do I do what I should do, what I want to do or what is right? I told him: "they should all be the same thing!"
Love that!
Mike drop!
Elder Bednar taught this to us during our Stake Conference. I love him so much! ❤
Was that in calif corona ?
We're already fallen and lost. The atonement gives you free will to follow God. Under the law all of us are condemned. Only under conditions of repentance can we be redeemed.
I needed this explanation. Elder Bednar made it very clear. Thank you for playing this.
Hayden, this was such a great video. Thanks for putting it together and please keep them coming!
A great presentation and some great concepts taught on this subject. I love the way Bednar teaches, especially when he is in a less formal setting..
I love this explanation of agency. It makes perfect sense and helps me view my choices line upon line
I love Helena moral agency that really clarified it for me and I love watching Elder Bednar he is so straightforward he doesn’t hold back you did an excellent job with this video
Agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves. Agency is essential in the plan of salvation. Without agency, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior.
Agency and Accountability
I remember the old seminary video that talked about this.
Lehi presented two options, that we could choose freedom and eternal life or captivity and death.
Was it that one with the twins, the ferrari, and the door-filled hallway in the closet?
@@BookWarden yup
@@Steelblaidd I would watch that as a kid a bunch, and it is so nastalgic to watch again now. Really a great video!
Love those movies. Too bad they're not on sale.
Incredible teachings of Elder Bednar. It was so worth the time to break it all down. I love the image of potty training!
I understand what Elder Bednar is saying, but it can also be easily misunderstood. The following comes from my book, "The Agency Discussions":
We become agents of Christ when we are baptized. We covenant to take His name upon us and seek to do His will. Although it would be perfectly correct to call this an agency relationship, we must always remember that it’s never called that in our scriptures. The only agency relationship defined there is the one where men are called agents unto themselves. We need to keep analogies which use the general concept of agency separate from scriptural agency; otherwise, it could easily lead to confusion.
I believe we always act for ourselves and remain accountable for our own actions regardless of whom we follow. When we enter into an agency relationship with Christ through baptism, we still retain our own God-given, personal agency.
Exactly! Thank you for sharing!!
Excellent talk by Elder Bednar , and beautiful explanation on your part. Thanks .❤🎉Happy 4th of July 🎉😊
AdamNATION 🏛️ D.C.eived
a nation in darkness
This is awesome Hayden. Thank you! ❤
I love analogies that help people see the bigger picture. How about parents letting their kids do whatever they want vs those who have structure and discipline in their homes. Those with structure, more times than not, have children that are way better citizens in society and are overall more successful. That doesn’t take long to learn as a parent on which direction is better
lover of the law 😧
I went to the temple 1 time, the first time really, for the right reasons and came away with a lot of things.
One of them was the idea that the only freedom we really have is when we choose Christ.
If we don’t keep our covenants, then we lose our agency.
Now Neal A Maxwells statement makes so much more sense…
If in the end you have not chosen Christ, it will not matter what you have chosen instead!
BOOM!!!
Great job @stickofjoseph
A great video. I love Elder Bednar. Thank you, Hayden. 😊❤️🙏🇦🇺🔯🧔♀️🪔
Elder Bednar is our Elder Maxwell. I remember this blowing my mind when I heard him teach it. This is a very very interesting doctrine and as he put it one of the least understood doctrines in the church.
Amen, Elder Bednar is extremely precise in his words and an excellent teacher.
The Holy Ghost reaches me through directness. After Bednar, I don’t know where I’ll receive the spiritual nourishment I need FROM the church. I fear I’ll be alone until I pass on, once the direct and blunt men die off. I’ll miss Oaks, Holland, Bednar and I really miss Boyd K Packer, Gordon B Hinckley, Neil A Maxwell and of course L Tom Perry, Ezra Taft Benson and Spencer W Kimball. Sigh.
Sigh all our apostles and prophets teach by the spirit
@@lindamartinez7006 Yes, they do. Some just use the words of the world and others use the words of a direct messenger from God. I’m trying to be re-converted to the dumbing down of the Gospel which helps easily offended people stay longer. ;)
@@lindamartinez7006 yes, but each have different personalities and characteristics that reach different types of people. Elder Bednar is one I really connect with, although I love and heed them all.
Back in the 70’s, there was a comedian named Flip Wilson. He had a persona called Geraldine. She would always say, “the devil made me do it”. The devil doesn’t make us do anything. His only goal is to convince us that we don’t have a choice or say in the matter, AKA agency.
The use of the term “free agency” is used a lot from past prophets (including from the Lord in some unpublished revelations). They absolutely intended it to mean that we are free to choose good or evil just as Lehi explained in 2 Ne 2:27 - “Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil”
This other definition of “representative agency” is another accurate use of the term but it deviates from the free-will definition of agency that has been intended and used by all of our prophets going back for thousands of years. Attributing different meanings to a doctrinal term that have maintained a consistent free-will meaning is a recipe for more confusion.
I agree with Elder Bednar that some people have misunderstood what agency means when they try to justify their actions by saying they have their free agency (as if they should be able to do whatever they want without consequences). But I’m worried he’s adding more confusion to the topic when he rejects the multi-millennia definition of agency (free will) in favor of a meaning that was never intended by earlier prophets teaching the doctrine.
The people have confused the meaning already. He's actually clarifying
Such a needed message!
When we choose the right..when we choose to follow God’s light 💡 then we are given more light. In D&C 82:10 - “I, the Lord am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye gave no promise.”
Love your work,
All my love your way!
Jockos book Extreme Ownership is great! Ties perfect into this topic!
Excellent description of agency, by Elder Bednar, and great analogies given by you. This helped me to understand it better now. Thanks.
How can an eight year old understand this concept? Yet his soul is forever lost because as an older person chooses not to go on a mission or pay tithing
Souls aren’t lost, they are eternal.
Thank you, Hayden. Fantastic!
This is so good, keep it up!
It's not called free agency nor is it called moral agency. It's called agency.
I love this talk, this is also my view on agency. I've never felt that I could do what ever I want. I've shared this same meeting of Elder Bednar with others to help them understand agency. Nice video! ❤
I love it, thank you. Choosing God is a responsible choice and will be rewarded. Not choosing God is an irresponsible choice and will lead to bondage.
19:15 Are the rules binding us down or holding us up?
The Parable of the Kite:
czcams.com/video/CsFLV5cr9NU/video.html
Love this one so much!
I think his main point is that you can’t use “I have my free agency” as a way to justify sinning or doing whatever we want. Obviously we technically still have our free will and can choose to sin and do whatever we want but he’s reminding us that with our free will we chose to make a covenant and have promised to do the Lords will. So now when we choose to sin or do whatever we want(our will) we are also choosing to break our covenant to do His will. In other words when we make the 1 choice to covenant to follow the Savior we commit to a lifetime of choices to do His will.
Precisely. You are free to choose but your choices have consequences which you cannot escape.
Bruce R McConkie gave a great example of this. His son wanted to stay home from church and gave the reason of I am free to choose, I have my agency. Elder McConkie said you gave up your choice when you chose to enter the straight and narrow gate. He said: Do you think the mail man, who is an agent of the US postal service, can decide that they want to represent another company? The answer is no! They represent the US postal service. In the same way, you are an agent of Christ and you have an obligation to represent Him. So get dressed, we are going to Church! - I have searched for this quotation with the mailman analogy and I cannot find it. I know I have read it, not sure where. I thought it was in the above quotation, but I have combined two quotations. I will keep looking but don't want to put words into Elder McConkie's mouth that I can't back up.
If the mailman refuses to act as an agent he is fired from the agency. He still can choose if he wants to be the kind of agent that the USPS requires. Once he chooses to live in discordance with the USPS requirements then he is relieved have is status as an agent of the USPS. So choose ye this day whom ye will serve. If you covenant to be an agent of Christ then be an agent of Christ. If you fail to always act as an agent, then you must repent in order to become an agent again.
But BOTH are choices so I don't get how thats not free agency? We are free to choose, but we are not free of the consequences of our actions ... none the less... we are free to choose. Did I miss something? Did we loose this choice?
@@garywoodward8296. Something is wrong here. YOU ALWAYS HAVE A CHOICE. Just because you have an obligation doesn’t mean you don’t have a choice!!
@@NotAll.WhoWonder.AreLost I agree! I think people are taking what Elder Bednar has taught out of context. Eder Bednar is also splitting hairs here.
We have AGENCY always. Or else it wouldn’t be a choice to begin with.
@@woodystang67 I totally agree with you. We are do have a choice. We always have a choice. What I think Elder Bednar and Elder McConkie is saying we signed up to represent and become an agent of Christ. With this great blessing comes responsibilities. It is like marriage. I chose my wife and she chose me. We have made a commitment to forsake all others. We have a choice to either fulfill this commitment or not. Most people in society honour this commitment and do not flip flop from one choice to the other because of the sacredness or weight we hold to this commitment. I think this is the point Elder Bednar is making.
That was a really good one!
I love this presentation by Elder Bednar. I have heard it before.
The thoughts of being free to choose to worship and serve God is nice. If we didn't have that, our other option would have been to be controlled by Lucifer or Satan.
Your example of the FBI agent is good.. they represent the DOJ and the Govt. Another example (the opposite) is a soldier: GI. That stands for Government Issue. You actually belong to the Government, not to yourself and your own decisions and plans. (The military has important contributions, so I'm NOT saying it is bad.)
I really like your analogy of lower and higher brain level energy we need to spend on decisions.
:) Barbie
Good stuff!
I love this explanation. Thanks
The Idea of "free" agency comes from free will, but will and agency are not the same thing. Agency is the ability to choose what who, or what, you will serve. An agent does not act for themselves but on behalf of something. You are only free to choose whom you will serve, God, or the Devil. Then the strength of your "will" will dictate how devotedly you serve them. With the example of your son, even if he has used his agency to serve the higher ideal of potty training, he oacks the will to act it out. Or perhaps he is still serving the lower ideals of self gratification and is showing great will in acting that out.
When the term “agency” was being used in the 1800s, it had 2 definitions:
1) the ability for one to exert their own will or power into action
2) an office of an agent entrusted with the concerns of others
(see Websters 1828 dictionary)
The first definition is about free-will; the second definition is about representative agency. The context behind the words of the scriptures, unpublished revelations and the prophets up until a few apostles in the last decade are referring to the first definition of agency - free-will. I don’t think it’s wise to twist the meaning of past language to support a current paradigm. That is what each side is doing: the “live your truth” people are justifying sin by hiding behind a false belief that agency means there is no consequence for sin. But now a growing movement of well-meaning members are undermining the longstanding definition of free-will agency by replacing it with representative agency.
@@537537 EXACTLY. No one had an issue about the word “free agency” in terms of what it meant. It was simple. Free Will. A eternal law.
To me what Elder Bednar says here is confusing. And it’s probably because he isn’t even using the definition of Free Will… which is literally what the scriptures are talking about.
People can and always will do “whatever they want”. Sometimes what we want is to follow God! That’s actually our goal.
I don’t like the splitting hairs going on in this terminology.
“I don’t have individual agency anymore only representative” what? I literally choose every single day to follow Christ. And I want to!
If there wasn’t an option to NOT follow then that wouldn’t be agency. We are not forced to keep our covenants because “it’s the only option” we don’t keep it because of fear of “consequences” and we don’t just keep it because it’s a commitment and “obligation” we keep our covenants with God because we LOVE HIM and we CHOOSE to. If it wasn’t a choice what’s the value in that?
Great video
The definition of an Agent is to faithfully represent and act on behalf of another, and having Agency from God means to become His Agent. As God's Agents, we have a duty to represent Him, and act on His behalf in all things we do. Pretty simple yet often misunderstood concept.
This is not the definition of agency that the prophets have been teaching for thousands of years. Agency has consistently been taught as a free-will principle, not as a representative-version of agency. See 2 Ne 2:27.
@@537537 Technically, it's both. It starts out as pure free-will, but as we bind ourselves to Christ through covenants, we surrender that free-will, and take His name upon us as the bride (us) does with the bridegroom (Christ). At that point our agency becomes a representative Agency. We literally represent Christ. Yes, we can break those covenants, but that is not a free choice as there is a cost to doing so.
Scripture notes is awesome! Been using it for 2 years. Their newest feature is an AI feature called Daniel. Nothing else like it exists in LDS scripture study options.
Great presentation 👏
Solid principle. Apostles and prophets are called to correct us from the false ideas we invent or the adversary supports. Moral Agency has been tossed in the confusion of the world to make people think anything goes and truth is subjective. Nehor was always wrong. All choices have consequences. I have found that staying within the protective power of the commandments of God leads to the best of the best outcomes.
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley
Doing what you want is serving the devil and placing yourself in bondage to him. When you instead do the will of your Creator, who created you, and who knows better than you what is good for you, and how you were made to properly function; then you will finally know what being free actually means. Your Father loves you and knows what's best for you. Turn to Him and you will find all of the peace and joy that you seek. He sent His Son to show you the way; follow Him.
We all make choices. Some choices have little consequence. Sometimes we make choices that come with a commitment and responsibility. These I refer to as Agency choices. You make these choices rarely and consciously, and they have implications. When you make these choices you becomes agents - who for? Hopefully an Agent for Christ - which will predetermine future choices because if you have integrity you will not go back on that decision and betray your choice to follow him.
Great video!
oooh! Many people arent ready for this lol
Agency is not free, there is a cost for every action we do, good or bad. It is not free, there is a cost with all things.
If we abide in sin means you let your weakness or temptation controls you, agency will help you choose to fight sin and to choose God
I remember around 2002 General Conference someone said: The Lord will have a Covenant Keeping People.
I'm sad I've not been able to find the exact quote and who said it. But it is poignant to me.
I'm not sure if it's the exact quote, but during a fundraising event at BYU in the early 2000s, President Henry B Eyring spoke to perspective donors to the BYU schools. I'll have to dig up the exact quote, but it wen something like this:
"You may righteously support whatever institution you would like with your donations. But if you're concerned about the second coming of the Lord and preparing for his return, consider BYU. We have considered many times the possibility of shutting down the BYU schools. The cost involved in keeping these institutions of Higher Learning solvent, are very high. Every time we considered the possibility of shutting down BYU, we received clear Revelation from the Lord that whispered 'leave them open'. I've pondered on this revelation for some time.
The Lord will have a covenant people. The Lord is in a hurry, he wants to come. He wants to return to save his children who wish to save. But he can't come because there isn't a righteous enough group of Latter-day Saints, unified in one heart and one mind, so that Christ can return as promised. If you really want to help with what's most important to the Lord, help us raise up a righteous generation, a Zion people, of one heart and one mind that will be righteous enough so that Christ will have to return to save us. The mission of BYU and of church education is to develop the knowledge and character of those students to be prepared through the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ and all of his ordinances, to become such a people."
He said variations of this over the years, I hope this helps.
I’m more familiar with, “the Lord will have a humble people,” 😉 but if you’re being humble, chances are you aren’t putting “you, yourself, and you,” first in everything and are probably also keeping covenants to at least some degree!
@@juliadrodgers2610 Interesting, my comment from President Eyring was deleted. Did I violate some TOS? Is that normally around here? Do you remember seeing the reply? I definitely don't want to post anything that would be in violation of any terms of service, but I have a hard time believing anything I wrote from a faithful Latter-Day Saint perspective could have been in violation to such degree, to be deleted.
@@zham61 I don't know.
I'm not a moderator in any form.
@@juliadrodgers2610 did you see any notification that I had replied about an experience with President Eyring?
Free Agency vs. Moral Agency
Free Agency is actually a correct term. The problem is that people do not understand what free agency is. The term “free agency” does not mean, and has never meant, “agency is free” nor has it ever meant that you don’t have to pay a price.
Free Agency is the defining attribute of a Free Agent. An agent is a person who is empowered to execute actions on behalf of another person or group. The word “Free” modifies the definition to specify that the agent has not yet chosen which person or group to act on the behalf of.
We don’t use this term often in modern English, but one place that it is still used today is in professional sports where a free agent is a player who does not currently have any bonds to any particular team, and therefore, is eligible to join any team of their choosing.
Applied to the gospel, a free agent, or in other words, a person with free agency, is a person who has not yet bound themselves to the Savior. That person, therefore, is free to choose which team they will play for, so to speak. Or in the words of Nephi, “they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil;”
However, once the person has chosen, they are no longer a free agent but are bound by the terms of the covenants they have made. If they chose Jesus Christ and his Church, then they are bound by their covenants with God and are no longer free agents, but are instead agents of Jesus Christ, or in other words, they agree to take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ, always remember him, and critically, to keep his commandments, or in other words, to act in His name and do His works.
Elder Bednar made this point clear in a Q&A with YSAs on 24 Feb 2016. He said, “If, after having entered into the covenant, we don’t abide by the conditions of the covenant-For example, if you or I don’t pay our tithing, do we have the option not to pay our tithing? Nope. It’s breaking a covenant. It is not the exercise of agency anymore. Because, what happened to our individual agency? It was enlarged. Now, it’s more important to represent Him.”
Now that I have said all of this, please do not assume that I think the terms “Moral Agency” or just “Agency” are incorrect. They are not incorrect terms. They just mean something different than “Free Agency”. Agency is the capacity to act in order to effect change, and moral agency is the capacity to act on the basis of an understanding of right and wrong or good and evil to effect change. Free Agency, in my opinion, is special because, singularly among these terms, its definition demonstrates our relationship to Jesus Christ as we make covenants and change from being free agents to being Christ’s agents.
Moral agency is the only scriptural term D&C 101:78. Also, there are several talks by President Nelson and Elder Christofferson on why moral agency is the correct term, however, it is a bit splitting hairs (yet sometimes that’s important too).
Thanks for your explanation, loved the “free agent” metaphor
@ItsSnagret Incorrect. D&C 68:4 explicitly states "Whatsoever [those having authority] shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be *scripture*, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation."
So, the term "free agency" is a scriptural term because it has been used many times by many Prophets when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. And, it is not splitting hairs because the phrases have distinct meanings, as explained in my original comment.
The Brethren over the last 30 years or so have been trying to correct the phrase “free agency” because it isn’t scriptural. The only phrases are moral agency or agency, free to choose.
@@balduran2003 I like your comments.
You say in the gospel, a free agent is someone who has not yet bonded themselves with the Savior. So they are a free agent to choose which team to play on, so to speak.
I have just one hesitation to your idea. It it clear from the Lord that we eight choose him, or we have chosen the devil. Someone quoted Nephi at saying we can choose life and liberty or captivity and the devil.
I realize we have our life here and in the Spirit World to figure out our choise, and repent as we make mistakes on it.
But it feels a little self-deceptive if I tell myself I am a free agent - not realizing the freedom I have to choose is to choose the Lord or to choose bondage.
That just doesn't feel like freedom of choice.
It just feels like it is an illusion to say we are a "free agent".
I did not realize this. Now I know.
Good.
In the Garden of Eden God gave man his agency. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. We are so messed up as a people because with think free agency is some eternal attribute. It's not. It's a gift.
What is the title of the Bednar video?
Even before I watch this I think- you have the agency to choose the behavior you want, but you will get the consequences of those choices.
Link to the original Elder Bednar Video please. I've seen several clips but haven't been able to find the full original.
Here’s a confusion: How did Cain choose to slay Abel if he had no agency to chose evil? Of course we CAN chose wrong, Bernard is not saying we can’t actually make bad choices, we all prove we can…but just saying we can’t choose evil without consequence-usually serious limitation of the very agency we exercised so poorly. Using agency correctly expands agency, and vice versa. You can choose to drive intoxicated, but you land in jail and then are unable to make many choices-including driving intoxicated. So, when Bernard says “no, you can’t…he’s saying you can’t without consequences of limiting and eroding that agency, which leads to slavery and limitation.
Discipline = Freedom
Obedience to Christ's words = Freedom, Intelligence, Strength, Peace
"Duty is the sublimest word in the English language."
Robert E Lee
We have free will. We are not free agents. We are endowed to be agents unto ourselves. Doesn't that mean we are designated agents or deputized by and of God to behave in such a way that we become all that our Created intended for us to become?
Is there anyway to get a link to the original talk without all the cuts? I love your commentary but want to get the full context by listening to the original myself.
Love your content. He refers to Moses 7:33. The Lord says there explicitly that He gave agency to men so men would chose Him.
HA!! I LOVE THAT, Hayden!! "We are FBI agents for the Lord"!!!! 🙏❤️⚘️
As much as I appreciate Bednar, he's conflating the use of two different definitions of agency and creating confusion.
There are two definitions of agency.
1. The ability to act and choose and exert power (free agency).
2. The authority and duty to act on behalf of another (real estate agent, sports agent, etc.)
He's suggesting that when we make covenants our agency is "enlarged" to be representative agency. And when that happens, we lose the ability to choose whatever we want (free agency).
But that’s not what happens. These two types of agency are two **different** things. Having one doesn't prevent me from having the other.
We can see the same thing with the word scratch. It has many definitions, including (a) an abrasion and (b) chicken feed. So I can have a scratch (an abrasion) and scratch (chicken feed) at the same time. Possessing the one doesn’t affect possessing the other.
It’s the same with agency. Before I’m baptized, I possess the ability to follow or not follow the commandments (free agency). After I’m baptized I continue to possess that, but I now also possess representative agency, something totally different. If I choose to disobey the commandments, I fail in my representative agency, but I don’t lose my free agency.
I can always choose to do whatever I want. But not all of my choices will fulfill my duty as God's representative. These are two separate things.
I would challenge you in this only. Free agency is not free. It was bought and paid for by Christ through his atonement. This world where we make choices exists so we can choose God. And Christs atonement makes it possible to overcome the bad choices we’ve made. And if we don’t accept Christ then we will pay ourselves. So no, agency is not free. It was either prepaid by Christ or will be paid for by us. Regardless there was and is a cost for every choice we make. So free agency does not exist. Agency exists.
@@LadyDisdain3but that is not what elder Bednar is saying. He literally says we don’t have agency to do whatever we want. Which is actually not true. We do have agency to do what we want but we have to be willing to accept the consequences of our choices.
@@utahman112 I’m not defending Bednar. I’m talking about your use of the word free. I agree that we have the ability to choose or make good or bad choices. We are agents unto ourselves. We have agency. Free is not needed as a qualifier to explain it. And it should not be used because agency to choose is not and was not free. I’m saying the term ‘free agency’ shouldn’t be used because our choices were bought by the blood of Christ. We have agency though. And the reason we have agency is so have to ability to prove ourselves to God by choosing Him and not something else.
Also you don’t have to be willing to accept the consequences. They will happen regardless of if you’re willing or not or believe they will happen or not.
I’m pointing it out because I thinks it’s important to teach people/the youth that while they can make whatever choices they want there is a debt to be paid for every wrong choice you make. And Christ suffered for every one of them. And to say free agency gives an incorrect impression of what’s going on.
@@LadyDisdain3 I've never heard anyone claim that "free" means you can do whatever you want without positive or negative consequence. Ever. No youth. No adult. Nobody I've ever heard talk about it has claimed that. It seems like a bogus concern to me.
The way I have heard it used is simply a conflation of freedom and agency.
For example, here's the definition from Collins dictionary: "If you say that someone is a free agent, you are emphasizing that they can do whatever they want to do, because they are not responsible to anyone or for anyone. Example: We are not free agents; we abide by the decisions of our president."
We all can choose whatever we want to choose. Call it agency, being agents unto themselves, or free agency, it's the same meaning. That's how people use it. It’s why the term free agent is used in sports.
@@777johbro the world is constantly saying people can do whatever they want all the time and act as if there are no consequences. The church doesn’t teach that but it’s 100% a constant message being sent to everyone it’s a message taught by anti Christ’s in the Book of Mormon. And I think when we use the term ‘free agency’ it gives an air of freedom to do whatever you want and an emphasis on the cost of that is whittled down to: but you’ll lose your salvation if you don’t repent. Which is true but it makes it very self focused and and you lose the even bigger picture of Gods plan and the price that was paid on your behalf to be a part of that plan. The emphasis that we have a Savior who suffered and died for you so that you can make those choices I’ve rarely if ever heard emphasized in any lesson and I’ve been in the church my whole life. That which was paid for in blood and suffering is not free. And using the word free makes it feel less important than it is. We have agency to choose eternal life or eternal damnation but that agency was not free.
And sure no one talks about it that way. Which is kind of my point. The silent message of using words like that removes deep and important truths about Gods plan for His children.
It’s just my opinion though. This isn’t doctrine. I’m expressing how the term has affected me growing up and how I feel it makes people take Christs atonement in connection with their choices less seriously if they make the connection at all.
If saying ‘free agency’ is the best way for you to talk about it then go for it. I just think the term is more prone to having negative effects than other ways we can talk about agency because ‘free’ comes with a set of ideas that may or may not lead someone to take their actions more seriously.
Yes! Agency is choosing God first, and abiding laws we are willing to act and not being acted upon. Thank goodness for repentance as we learn to walk in the footsteps of the Lord acting in higher holier way than the natural man would. Jesus will give us power to act when we try to act yoked to him to become his sons and daughters. When you act using agency, you are also giving up your will which is all we have anyway to give to God what he wants , I. Essence we quite literally are growing grade for grace as Jesus did too.
But that’s not what agency actually is. That’s what we should do with our agency.
Free agency is given you. Free will is chosen by you :>)
No, we always have had agency, as we are coeternal intelligences with God.
@@ItsSnagret Because we are his literal offspring... we are given our agency because of it and because of that... we also have the free will to choose to keep it or not. :>)
@@godsoffspring4195 no, we had moral agency as intelligences before being begotten by God.
@@ItsSnagret Who told you that?
@@godsoffspring4195 we are coeternal with God. D&C 93:29, and the whole section.
The potty training comparison with choices I think was a really good one. While, technically, we could choose to pee out pants, that's not a realistic possibility or something we'd ever consider.
I used my agency to become a member of the church I use agency daily in my life when I make decisions. I'm not a big fan of Elder Bednar but I respect his point of view but it's not the only one. He did a whole thing on people who play video games as well... for some people that's the only escape from reality the have they can't go on expensive vacations. I think he has a rather Pompous way of looking at some things sometimes. I get his point, and he's right in the fact you do give up agency when follow Christ but you exercised agency when made that choice. Agency is at the core of the Saviors plan in my opinion. God won't force anyone to do anything period good or bad it's our choice.
I don't think playing video games is bad. It's how long we are on them. I like to play solitaire, but if I am not careful I do it for a while. I have learned to go to the scriptures right after. It's better for my brain.
I think escaping for a little bit is a good thing
@@trishachristensen7667 Yes! all things in moderation.
You can have an opinion about an apostle of the Lord who speaks for the Lord and choose to think he isn't correct and is being pompous at your own eternal consequence. He is speaking to us for our times now. I can bet these 3 comments here are one or all of the following demographic. 1. Male, 2. Born after 1990 3. Addicted to gaming and don't want to admit it. There is nothing good about computer games. NOTHING. It is an absolute distraction from the TIME you have to repent and prove yourself before God. It does nothing to help your spiritual momentum, your repentance, your coming unto Christ or helping to bring others to Christ. You are lying to yourself if you think there is nothing wrong with it. If you only knew who and what purpose all technology was created.... it was all to distract man from his relationship with God. Only some technology has been harnessed to help God's work... and I can tell you now, here is a list that does not fit that catagory of helping the Lord's work.... gaming, all pop music industry, all of Holly wood, social media "influencers". If you cut all of this out of your life - your spirit will see clearly the path to take without it all.
@@Jeanie-nv7loAmen! A lot of people who leave a religion say cute things like “It’s the best decision I’ve ever made” and “I’ve never happier than when I left X church.” Well, I’m saying I was so unhappy until I left FB around 2017. I was even happier after I deleted Instagram around 2022. I’ll be even happier when I drop CZcams next. These are all distractions from living a happy, spiritual, blessed and productive life. I don’t think Bednar was attacking the gamer, rather the addiction to gaming. Let’s be better.
@@frankfiore7461 All things? I know what you mean, but "all" includes everything.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Everything in balance. Too much order becomes too rigid, and too much chaos becomes too flexible.
Any master sword Smith will tell you you need both, hardness and flex. Otherwise your sword will break.
Someone please explain how this makes sense. (No I’m not anti or anything I’m genuinely asking as a devoted member.)
“You can’t do whatever you want”
Yes you can do whatever you want because people do it all the time. Even if you make a covenant with God you STILL can do whatever you want because people either KEEP or BREAK the covenant that is a choice.
Also, Elder Bednar said “if you or I don’t pay our tithing, do you we have the option to not pay our tithing? No.”
That’s a contradiction because you can’t Not pay your tithing and Not have the option to at the same time. It was clearly an option that’s why it happened. Paying your tithing is using your agency. You CANT use agency if you only had ONE CHOICE.
There are people who get Baptized and say “I can do anything I want”. That’s wrong, you can’t because you have a commitment now. However it doesn’t mean that they literally CANT. I see it happen all the time. People have and will do what they want. Because of why??? AGENCY. When you don’t keep to that covenant that “enlargement” of agency is taken away and you are left with the agency you had before.
Is there a way to get a text version of Elder Bednar's talk? Where would I seek out such a thing please and thank you 🙏
czcams.com/video/mmErOV9oQZ8/video.html
15:52
Really missing some important nuance about agency, moral agency, the righteous use of agency, general agency as an Eternal Law, the increase or decrease of Freedom relative to agency, the much more rare increase or decrease agency of total agency, various principles relative to Freedom, and the out come of celestial character, etc.
The video cut that says something like, "I have my agency I can do what I want" is missing context. It seems to be implying that some Latter-Day Saints are saying once I'm baptized, I have my agency I can do what I want, and receive all the blessings and avoid all of the consequences that are negative. That seems to be the implication that isn't explicitly stated in the video or they cuts to Elder Bednar.
It is true we have agency and within the sphere of influence that we have or within the kingdom in which our current agency Acts, we can choose to do what we wish with that agency, but we cannot choose the consequences of said agency. I used to think of agency, as being able to choose the consequences we desire through the actions and beliefs we espouse as agents. That is a fundamentally Elementary definition, but it helps to illustrate what we are speaking about.
Even an unrighteous use of agency, in a given sphere of my, is still a act or use of agency, but the subsequent consequences can make it so that we no longer have the same amount of freedom to exercise agency, as we did before, when initially using our agency righteously.
Freedom comes and goes, but our agency is ours, giving us of God, relative to our sphere of influence, stewardship, and/or Kingdom.
Years ago, Elder Maxwell and others were teaching that free agency was a misnomer because agency inherently included free. So by saying free agency, one was saying free free agency. Agency or moral agency was a more appropriate term. Moral agency and agency are often used interchangeably, but there is teaching that may infer that moral agency and agency actually contain unique nuance.
Elder Bednar taught us these ideas more fully as missionaries. In a multi-hour training session, he went through many of these Concepts one by one. One key point is confusing agency with either the righteous use of agency versus the unrighteous use of agency (and the subsequent consequences of each).
It also needs to be noted, the difference between agency and freedom, the relationship between these two are absolutely key to understanding the higher conversation being had here.
(For example, the idea from the video that discipline equals freedom, is implying something not explicitly said by the quote, and the conclusion drawn in this video falls short. Discipline for righteous Eternal principles which have eternal promises or blessings from God as their consequence, leads to greater Freedom in the long-term. If you have discipline for sin and breaking the Commandments, you will have less overall freedom Long-term.)
While your freedom can be taken away from you, your agency never can be. The only possibility of shrinking the sphere of influence of your agency within a Stewardship or sphere of influence (sometime called a Kingdom by Brigham Young) is very rare and difficult, because it is something only you can do, only you can fotfiet your powers as an agent. Especially given the possibility of repentance in mortality, there is even more Nuance to be discussed.
This possible situation of one surrendering their ability to act as an agent and not to be acted upon, usually only occurs to someone given greater light and knowledge, who subsequently shrink from greater opportunities afforded them by exercising righteous agency, therefore for some period of time - up to eternity (because of the eternal nature of the atonement and repentance), they also forfeit the ability of reaping the additional benefits of such righteousness use of agency.
Even if someone chained you up in a prison cell, and you lived your entire life in that environment, you would still have your moral agency relative to your sphere of influence, despite the fact that you are robbed of your de facto freedom.
At a high leave, agency or I would say radical agency, is one of the laws of the universe that is one of the prerequisites for us to live in the presence of God like he lives, with a body like his, with our families forever, Worlds Without End.
God has the technical agency and freedom to lie and break his Covenants. By a technical sense, given the nature of radically agency as a law of the universe. But we know that God has never lied or broken a covenant (nor will He), because he would cease to be God, and because time is only counted unto man according to Alma 40:8, we would cease to be. The fact that we exist in this moment having this conversation, is proof that God will never and does not, do anything with his radical agency and freedom that would jeopardize his standing as the great Eternal God, despite having the ability to do so.
This is what meekness really is, having complete power, with complete righteous control exercising only those righteous principles and promises through agency and freedom, relative to our sphere of influence. In a non-technical sense, God cannot use his agency to lie and break covenants, because he would not be God, and we would cease to be. Because these laws exist outside of God, God himself has the technical ability to do things that he will never do. This requires us to not only trust in God's power and teachings, but also in the Celestial Character of God. This is why His character was described by the ancient Hebrews as being more holy or righteous than those of other Pagan gods. Which is why the ancient Israelites practiced the law of holiness, which is an acknowledgment that we trust or have faith in God because his character is as such that he will always use his agency and freedoms righteously. We therfore seek to model ourselves after the same (though sadly the ancient Hebrews looked beyond the mark and reduced the law of Holiness to a series of performances, and the true spirit and Power was lost).
We exercise righteous agency and act as agents, and are not acted upon by the consequences of broken law, with the power of the spirit being our companion, we develop celestial character which is the ultimate goal of the correct use of agency. That we might be joint heirs with Christ if it's so be that we suffer with him. One can't have the outcome of a Celestial character through using agency any which way one desires, even in situations where we may have maximum Freedom or a de facto absence of freedom. We must through the two channels of governance (the priesthood and personal revelation), correctly act as agents, in accordance to the will of God, through the constant companionship of the Holy ghost, to obtain the fruits of the consequences righteous agency (Ultimately Celestial Character).
"... we've already dispensed with those lower choices... they no longer need to be choices anymore..."
I understand the sentiment of the above statement, but we still make those choice. They may seem to become so automatic that we aren't making them, because we are developing Celestial character which leads to all of righteous decision-making becoming almost automatic as we grow from one sphere of influence to another sphere of influence or kingdom, Grace to Grace, through Jesus Christ, until the perfect day. But they are still choices that we have to make, no matter how small. Thankfully, the atonement and Jesus Christ forgives even the smallest repeat mistakes that we should know better about already, which is one of the many reasons The Plan of Salvation is so beautiful in the first place place.
@thestickofjoseph Wow, this makes so much sense. I've seen this person's comments before. I wish you guys or Ward Radio would interview him. I think he studied in Israel and took Ancient Near-Eastern Studies at BYU, working with some of the greats Chadwick, Muhlestein, Judd, Kent P Jackson etc. He also had an incredible honors thesis.
I never thought about agency and its relationship to freedom before. That is really fascinating. I love this channel!
What a great comment. I love the Stick of Joseph, but this video was a bit confusing. It seemed like they weren't breaking down some of the ideas into small enough parts for their premises to validate their conclusions with soundness.
I really appreciate this comment because it clarifies some of those things that didn't quite mesh. I think you could even better organized this comment and start from the smaller principles and work to the conclusion, rather than trying to respond to different parts of the video in one comment. Just my two cents. I agree with the comment above, I would love to see this person interviewed on one of the faithful LDS channels
More praise than is needed for one comment. But I would absolutely love to call in on any of the faithful Latter-day Saints Shows or Podcasts. I have a book I'm working on, that addresses why the Nephites prayed to Christ directly in the Book of Mormon. That or any topic for the most part, would be really interesting.
@@ModelsOfTruththank you for your kind words. The chances of the Stick of Joseph seeing our comments, is pretty slim. They are so busy and have so much to do. Especially when confronted with large or long comments, it's really easy to just skip to the next. I do that all the time. I should probably break it down into a smaller comments, but I felt so strongly about leaving it as a block I'm going with it for right now.
@@teachablemoments2069I didn't think anyone would recognize my name, especially after I changed it, so you must have been around for some time. Thank you for the kind comment. But the real shout-out goes to the Stick of Joseph for being such an amazing place on CZcams for faithful Latter-day Saints. I especially appreciate their respectable and objective approach to materials. I get sort of exhausted with all the ad hominem attacks and how belligerent some CZcams shows get, to the point where the message is drowned out and everyone loses. These guys really want to do honest investigation and I would even say on a scholarship. I love it
The world has the Paul brothers. We have "The Paul Brothers"
That's the kind of heresy that leaders are teaching nowdays.
I don’t even know why members of the Church still call it Free Agency! 🤦🏽♂️.
To those saying the term “free agency” doesn’t appear in scripture, it actually does if you consider unpublished revelations from the Lord to his prophets as scripture. Here’s an example (there are many more): “And because I am kind and beneficent to all peoples, and because I have given to man his free agency, and have always maintained that free agency among all peoples, and have treated all men alike among all nations, and made the sun to shine on the evil and the good, on the just and the unjust, and have never controlled the consciences of men…” (Revelation given to John Taylor, Tuesday, June 27, 1882, at Salt Lake City, Utah Territory. (John Taylor Papers, LDS Archives))
Also notice that the definition of agency in this (and all other contexts until recently) was meant as a free-will version and not a representative version of agency.
We understand it better now. We can't keep a death hold on dead prophets because we agree with them or like them better than our present day prophets for us today.
And that statement doesn't even match the proper context as Elder Bednar is talking about. You are "free" to do whatever you want, but you do not get to choose or ignore the consequences. When you marry outside the covenant and fight with your spouse and have no promise for eternal family that's your choice and you do not get to skip forward to peace and eternal posterity. That door is closed
@@tiffanyseavy565, ditto - we can’t keep a death hold against millennia worth of past prophets just because we like the new definition being used by a few apostles recently better.
Also, I agree: agency doesn’t mean we are free from the consequences of our choices like today’s “live your truth” people advocate. I’m just saying that up until the pat 5-10 years, the term agency has consistently meant the free-will version of agency; not the representative version of agency.
@@537537 but it's not the apostles and prophets changing the definition. It's the world's influence.
I’ve never liked the phrase “free agency” as used commonly in our Church vernacular…..because the term “free agency” is never used, written, or textualized as such in the scriptures. I guarantee you will never see “free agency” in the written word of the scriptures. You’ll find “agency” and other words, adjectives, or metaphors attached to agency… but never as “free agency”…..so why do we express it in such a way?
This is off the subject, but did you know that I cannot find your video with the interview with the beautiful smart gal who talked about Jewish wedding motifs in the scriptures. It was fairly recent and it seems completely buried. It could just be user error though. I was hoping to share it with a bunch of my friends.
Also, Does anybody know why Jesus washed his disciple’s feet, especially that gal who knows so much about Jewish weddings? Not just it was a respectful thing to do (although it was)… yada yada, but all the reasons.
Thanks.
When the term “agency” was being used in the 1800s, it had 2 definitions:
1) the ability for one to exert their own will or power into action
2) an office of an agent entrusted with the concerns of others
(see Websters 1828 dictionary)
The first definition is about free-will; the second definition is about representative agency. The context behind the words of the scriptures, unpublished revelations and the prophets up until a few apostles in the last decade are referring to the first definition of agency - free-will. I don’t think it’s wise to twist the meaning of past language to support a current paradigm. That is what each side is doing: the “live your truth” people are justifying sin by hiding behind a false belief that agency means there is no consequence for sin. But now a growing movement of well-meaning members are undermining the longstanding definition of free-will agency by replacing it with representative agency.
No one had an issue about the word “free agency” in terms of what it meant. It was simple. Free Will. A eternal law.
To me what Elder Bednar says here is confusing. And it’s probably because he isn’t even using the definition of Free Will… which is literally what the scriptures are talking about.
People can and always will do “whatever they want”. Sometimes what we want is to follow God! That’s actually our goal.
“I don’t have individual agency anymore only representative” what? I literally choose every single day to follow Christ. And I want to!
If there wasn’t an option to NOT follow then that wouldn’t be agency. We are not forced to keep our covenants because “it’s the only option” we don’t keep it because of fear of “consequences” and we don’t just keep it because it’s a commitment and “obligation” we keep our covenants with God because we LOVE HIM and we CHOOSE to. If it wasn’t a choice what’s the value in that?
Also the example about a baby boy peeing their diaper is a bad example. Because the baby doesn’t have moral agency to know if that was wrong or not.
The church has been trying to eliminate the combination, ‘free agency’ for many years. Agency is not free, it was paid for with a price. Our use of agency comes with a price.
It’s not “choose whatever”
This is the choice.
The choice is liberty and eternal life
or
Captivity and the Devil
Satan promotes conduct and choices that limit our freedom to choose by replacing the influence of the Holy Spirit with his own domination (see D&C 29:40; 93:38-39). Yielding to his temptations leads to a narrower and narrower range of choices until none remains and to addictions that leave us powerless to resist.
Are the stick bros free to choose the heartland model?
Ironically the Protestants all tell this exact same story but in different words then claim we don't believe it so we therefore believe in a different gospel 😂
(haven't watched the video yet)
It irritates me a little bit that some people hear "free agency" and think of "free" in the sense that there is no price. Free Agency is the ability to act as a "free agent", where you can make your own choices without the force of law impeding you. It has literally nothing to do with price at all. So, I understand why this correction needed to happen, as language morphs over the years. I just don't hear people using "free agent" in everyday conversation, so people don't know what it means anymore. "Agency" and "free agency" have become synonymous over time, so people get caught up on the "free" part, and make jumps in logic that don't really work.
If we are being honest most 8-year-olds don't understand the covenants they are making at baptism. When we go to the temple at 18 in order to go on a mission we don't truly understand the seriousness of the covenants we are making. We don't even know the covenants we are making until we get there after they close the door!! There is a problem here!! DId you really have a choice?
Hopefully people get it. There is no total freedom to do anything that you want to do that kind of freedom does not exist. And if you think it does, then you get kind of the world we're starting to see that we're living in today. People look you in the face and say I can do what I want to do or you can, but there's a consequence to that. And many don't know , or they don't have a clear understanding of what that consequence will end up being
Free Agency before baptism
Righteous Agency after baptism
Which branch of the military to you belong? I used to work for MC / Navy.
This actually confuses me. I can see how it works but it doesn’t explain agency as a whole. We CHOOSE to keep our covenants. So yes we have a choice. When someone breaks a covenant they CHOSE not to keep it. I can see that covenants can somehow expand your agency, and when you sin that agency is taken away, but you always have agency. Free to choose between abiding the spirit of God or the devil.
Sin does not bring agency. It beings bonage. If you follow the law, you are bound by them, but you're free to go anywhere you want. If you break the law and go to prison, your choices are limited, and you lose progress in your life.
Ultimately, if you choose the devil, you won't have any choice anymore. You will be in bonage to him, no longer progressing. God also wants us to choose him, but unlike Satan, He promises that if we do, we'll have eternal life and endless progression.
@@aliceduren6542 right, but in mortal life that is more akin to spiritual things. How does breaking a covenant take away agency in this life? They still have the ability to choose. They only lost anything that pertains to the covenant
@@igoldenknight2169, your question is valid. Agency has had a free-will meaning for several millennia. It wasn’t until the last 5-10 years that some well-meaning members tried attributing a representative-meaning to agency. I believe they did this because of the growing number of people embracing a “live your truth” (no consequences) version of agency (which you’ve already acknowledged is false). In either case, agency has been used consistently with a free-will meaning and I will continue to use that definition.
2 Ne 2:27 “Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil”
Paid for Agency. Paid for by the Savior.
Imagine if Jocko became a member of the Church 😂
I respect Elder Bednar. Though he has said some things that are contrary to the scriptures. Read the BOM again carefully
Sometimes i am surprised at how we can twist the scriptures to make a point about covenant keeping. Men are free to choose Free agency never was meant to imply there were no consequences. You have freedom to choose. We should not conflate our ability to choose with the concept of accountability. Consequences is how we learn to make better choices. But you are still free to choose.
Nope, you guys don't get it. Modern physics and Calvinism tell us that there is no free will. Latter-day Saint theology tells us that we do have free will. One can choose to be honest, or to lie. Those are real choices, and they have real consequences. A test (probationary test) can only have meaning if the choices are real. The value of Jesus' self-sacrifice is that he had to make a real choice. This is not the same as the demands of the covenants we make, and the oaths that we take. Read II Nephi 2.
Modern physics has no authority within the school of philosophy so no it doesn’t indicate a lack of will and Calvinism is absolutely ridiculous as a sect. It’s either a 50/50 chance we have free will or not and every argument for or against is circular. There’s no reason to argue about it. The LDS church is simply making a truth claim based on the restoration that Joseph brought about. Take it or leave it.
Can you choose what you do? Yes. But you are not free to do so without condemnation. Even greater so after every covenant.
@@arjunheart5859just because there consequences doesn’t mean you don’t have agency.
@@arjunheart5859 You need to reread what I wrote. You obviously didn't get it.
@@BobSmith-lb9nc It's always the young uns. LOL