722 | Giants Offensive UDFA Review + Joe Schoen Preaches “Patience”
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- čas přidán 30. 05. 2024
- Bobby and Justin talk about their favorite Undrafted Free Agents The Giants have signed since the Draft as well as their review on GM Joe Schoen so far into his time in charge.
00:00 Intro
04:25 Joe Schoen Preaching “Patience”
13:57 Jake Kubas, OT, North Dakota State
20:51 Jon Jiles, WR, West Florida
28:37 Ayir Asante, WR, Wyoming
32:41 Dante Miller, RB, South Carolina
39:21 Marcellus Johnson, OT, Missouri
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#giants #nygiants - Sport
Legend has it Dallas Goedert’s girlfriend secretly loves the Talkin Giants
Im glad that Schoen has rebuilt the o line through free agency rather than the draft cos his free agents seem to work out well whereas we havent seen much from his draft hauls
me too...... a lot of people seem to be worried about that but I'm not one of them. I think the middle of the OL is going to be a lot better. Go Giants!
Two things factor into hitting home runs with O-Line draft prospects, how they are coached & positioned, and allowing time to develop.
Every Superbowl team seams to have at least 1 > 5th rnd pick starter on OL. OL coach is key to success.
John Jiles went to the same high school as Dexter Lawrence btw
Best in the business for analyzing players..
Thank you for the detailed info. I love knowing details on every player on the GMEN. A good fan is a knowledgeable fan.
one of the things I like the most about this podcast. Always watched football but never played it in an organized league or anything, but I learn a bit more about the game listening to these guys and especially about my favorite team
I found this synopsis on BBV regarding the lead-up to Jone's extension. It's a long read but very well laid out. ( Unfortunately I couldn't find the name of the author.)
"Daboll and Schoen were hired after the '21 season. At the time, Jones was exiting his third year as starting QB and had not yet shown enough to warrant exercising his fifth year option. Thus, Schoen chose to put Jones in a 'prove it' situation heading into year 4, but committed to Jones enough that the Giants chose not to pursue upgrades via the trade, free agency, or draft.
What would those options have been?
Draft: In the '22 draft, the Giants held the 5th and 7th overall picks as a result of their previous season's draft day trade down with the Bears. This was the infamous 'Kenny Pickett' draft, which saw only the Pitt signal caller go off the board in Round 1 at #20 to the Steelers. The next two QBs chosen were Desmond Ridder and Malik Willis in the 3rd round. Bailey Zappe and Sam Howell followed later........and, then, yeah, Mr. Irrelevant.
Free Agency:
The top 6 QB contracts by value signed after the '22 season were:
Jameis Winston-2/28
Marcus Mariota-2/18.75
Mitch Trubisky-2/14.285
Tyrod Taylor-2/11
Teddy Bridgewater-1/6.5
Nick Foles-2/6.2
Other QBs on the market were Jacoby Brisett, Geno Smith, Kyle Allen and Andy Dalton. You can see the full list here:
www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/_/year/2022/position/qb/sort/contract_value
So, with no real options available either in the draft (NOBODY saw Purdy coming) or free agency if the Giants were truly committed to their best chance of putting a competitive product on the field, Schoen chose continuity and providing Jones a chance to reset his career with a new and hopefully more competent boss.
It should be said here that we can always litigate draft strategy; with two first round picks, the Giants chose Thibs and Neal. Maybe they could have packaged the picks to trade up for one of Trayvon Walker, Hutchinson, Stingley or Gardner but I don't think that would have made much sense. Maybe they trade out of 7 (I don't recall reports of any offers) and pick up a second #1 in the '23 draft, but the team had a screaming need at right tackle and at the time, even given his lack of testing numbers, Neal was pretty well universally perceived as OL#1 in the draft class. So even if neither KT or Neal ultimately pan out I can't quibble with the selections. Schoen picked BPA at a position of need, unless you like Charles Cross or Jordan Davis and Davis is a DT anyway.
We know how the the '22 season turned out. Giants make the playoffs, Jones does well in Daboll's tightly scripted ball control offense, and now heads in to the '23 season without a contract.
So entering the '23 off-season, the Giants technically did not have a starting quarterback and as a consequence of their playoff run found themselves picking in the early 20s of the first round.
As I did above, let's review the options Schoen had at his disposal (outside of signing Jones). Note that as the Giants were coming off a playoff appearance and victory the idea that he would simply move on from the Guy That Brought You There would seem in that context too cute by half unless there were some sort of no-brainer franchise level talent option at his disposal.
So, in the '23 draft:
1) Young, Stroud, Richardson. NONE of the Panthers, Texans or Colts were moving off of these picks which they loudly broadcast for months to anyone actually paying attention. And even if, for example, the Giants had been able to cobble a package together at, say, 4 who knows how many first rounders they'd have had to include. So none of those guys were options.
2) Other QBs selected: Will Levis, Hendon 'Redshirt' Hooker, Jake Haener, Stetson 'Rehab' Bennett, Clayton Tune, Dorian Thompson-Robinson, Tanner McKee. You're not starting any of those guys over Jones, I'm sorry not happening. Much as I don't care for Jones even I'll admit that. These dudes are all career backups-Levis, maybe he's a starter but I don't think he's taking you to a SuperBowl.
2023 Free Agency:
Derek Carr
Jimmy Garoppolo
Taylor Heinecke
Jarret Stidham
Andy Dalton (again)
Mike White
Jacoby Brisett (again)
Case Keenum
Cooper Rush
There was some discussion around here about Carr or Garoppolo but I think in the end when faced with those two choices and given Jones' '22 success in Daboll's system Schoen chose to go with the Devil He (thought) he knew and signed Jones to the now-infamous extension essentially tying Jones to the Giants for the '23 and '24 seasons.
In this context, then, the decision to sign Jones was both understandable and defensible given the overall context. We can quibble with the financial terms of the deal but as several posters have pointed out the overall contract value was not out of line with the QB market at the time; maybe a bit on the high side given Jones' overall track record but then I think you have to balance the success he achieved with a coach who actually understood how to field a functional offense.
About the only real criticism I have here is that Schoen didn't beef up the offensive line; however the guard class was pretty thin (Ben Powers, Nate Davis, Isaac Seumalo, Nick Gates, Will Hernandez, Nate Herbig, Wes Schweitzer) and they weren't going to move off of Neal at RT after only one season, tempting as it may have been. Available tackles, of course, were McGlinchey, Jawaan Taylor, Orlando Brown Jr., McGarry, Beechum, Donovan Smith, George Fant and Eluemenor, who the Giants just signed to play....guard. Plus the Giants still had hopes for '22 draftees McKeethan and Ezeudu.
And so here we are. The team, largely as a consequence of an utterly miserable schedule and offensive line failures/injuries, finished '23 out of the playoffs and picking 6th overall. Jones is coming off a major injury and sitting on a contract that more or less ensured he was tied to the team for one more season with the added complication of another should he suffer a crippling injury. Again, options in free agency were slim, and assuming reports were correct New England was particularly reluctant to move off of #3 without some sort of 'Godfather' offer which even if Drake Maye becomes the Second Coming of Tommy I don't mind that Schoen didn't take the bait.
As a refresher, '24 free agent options included Tannehill, Cousins, Winston, Mayfield, Brisett (again), Heinecke (again), Trubisky, Darnold and Minshew. I suppose the Giants could have signed say Minshew as Jones' backup over Drew Locke-Minshew got 2/12 and Locke 1/5-but I viewed this as much as Schoen wanting flexibility to reset the position completely following the '24 season if needs be.
In summary, then, for all I doubt Jones' professional acumen and think he's completely and totally overpaid for what he is, given the context of his contract and options available to Schoen in FA and the draft I can't kill Schoen for the contract. Jones had leverage and his agent played it perfectly. He's got.....generational(?) wealth even if he never plays another down in the NFL. And if you think that scenario isn't a possibility, I've got a bridge to sell you😜
We also have got to remember that the Giants would never, at least not under Mara's leadership, sign off on a 'lose to win' strategy. So that's why I left that option out of the analysis. Much as some of us around here might wish for it to be so this franchise will NEVER sign off on tanking. It's just not gonna happen. The Giants may lose due a confluence of other factors (dysfunction, injuries, bad draftee evaluations, poor free agent choices, lousy coaching hires)"
That 2021 tape on Miller looked great I thought. he looks like he sees the flow and has patience to read, then hit the hole. and when he decides to hit it...oh my!
NY Giants have been depleted of talent for the past 10 years(60-102-1). You can’t fix this in 3 years, no way. Let’s see how the team shapes up this year and how hard they play.
Lastly, that friggin turf has to go , our injury level hav been unacceptable. I’d rather see brown grass that gives way than plastic turf that’s always green.
I think they are hosting the World Cup there and the turf is supposed to finally be gone…i remember reading that at least.
@@23ryanfisherin a few years they are replacing the turf with grass but again in a few years
@@notadeer3198 yeah summer 2026, my bad i thought it was this year. I’m totally with you, it makes a huge difference with the athletes.
They just replaced the turf. It's supposed to be better than old turf that cleats used to get stuck in.
Thanks for doing this...I was looking forward to this!!!
As far as Schoen & patience is concerned, I think he is overall doing a good job. I am more confident now in the team being built, the road ahead, and the final product on the field than I was with any of the last regimes. That doesnt mean its perfect, but I think the overall trend is positive and the infrastructure is strong.
Giants will make the playoffs in 2024
I thought so too, then picks rnd 2, 3, and 5 are all back ups and I think, not so much.
Phil Simms did not turn it around until year 6 after having been benched for Scott Bruner (who?) and also missing more than a full season to injury.
Giles and Bryce Ford Wheaton could round out our wr core nicely
We r pbly keeping 6 wrs: Nabers, Slayton, Hyatt, Hodgins, Robinson and 1 more
@@Thagomizer-U235 they paid BFW guranteee money last year and he had a special team spot had he not gotten injured. Very high ceiling player
@@achilles8936 Went undrafted. Can't be that high.
@@cooldude78216'4", 220lb, 4.38 40, He played great last spring until he blew out acl. Hopefully, he's 100% healed, in shape and ready to play this year.
can we get the bobby skinner vs dallas goedert film review ?
Can'y remember if y'all addressed this already, but I heard rumors that the DJ contract was pushed by Mara and the ownership, not by Daboll and Schoen. Thoughts?
SMH 🤦🏻♂️
Makes sense. Especially with how hard Schoen went after QB's.
I also preach patience. If the Giants start over every 4 years at the GM position how do you expect to have results on the field. These are my 2 cents. Keep up the good work, love your channel. I have been fallowing you since your o-line evaluations! This is my first ever comment. hahah
Rookie minicamp invite WR Chris Autman-Bell from Minnesota looks like a diamond in the rough to me bro a contested catch demon with some hands. Check out his film. Got me kinda amped ngl
But can he get open tho?
@@lucasmartinez5703 not a burner but separates enough. More of a possession guy than top off guy but he can give us tough YAC. Body control to adjust to balls is crazy.
I loved him a couples years ago I felt like he stayed in school too long same case as Cornelius Johnson. Bell reminded me of a Walmart Jamar chase early on.
I think this draft class will have more 1st year success than the 22 and 23 classes
Can it possibly have less.
what do you guys think of Donte Miller? 4.28 speed and shifty, could be a factor in the badfield
Talked about him!
4.27 They TALKED about him.
Last time we saw Daniel Jones with some healthy pieces around him he led a 2nd half comeback against a cardinals team that proved to be pretty frisky. The last time we saw the giants they were playing really well at the end of the season. I just don’t understand the constant pessimistic tone
Did the video repeat Justin talking about Jon Jiles arm length for anyone else? Or just me?
Dabes and Schoen’s “warm” seat year, DJ’s hot seat year. No matter what happens we have a few pieces that will eventually put it together. That’s the smart thing Schoen did. Either this team wins with him or he becomes the Mark Jackson of the New York Giants.
We got Walmart Keon Coleman in UDFA I’d say that’s a W
Takes about 3 years to know what your draft picks are. I can't put Neal on them, everyone thought that guy was as close to a lock as you get. This is year 3 of his first draft class.
Let's go new York Giants
2 years into a “rebuild” the roster is 30/32 in NFL, the 2 foundational pieces on the team (Thomas, Dex) are legacies from the previous GM, my patience is wearing thin
It is a little alarming. 12 picks in the top 100 in 3 years for Schoen. Not a lot of return on those investments.
No GM hits on 100% of their draft picks. Most GMs dont hit on 50% of draft picks.
And im sorry, if Jones wasnt here right now they would be in a worse position.
McCarthy or Penix on this team wouldnt put them in a better spot. So how was DJ a mistake?
But awesome breakdown as always.
And Justin cracking himself up thinking about the Florida crowd is awesome
Been watching alot of Mason Graham highlights (Michigan DT) and dreaming about what it would be like to see him lined up next to Dexter Lawrence, Brian Burns and Kayvon I mean that would be unreal lol 😂 we would have to sign a veteran QB cause we would have to draft him in the top 10 and i would be all for it
10 minutes of self-promotion and you finally get to the first pick
Jiles has an absolutely ridiculous catch radius, which has allowed him to catch so many errant throws by his quarterbacks. He truly embodies the saying, “Just put it somewhere close, and I’ll go get it.” -snippet from YardBarker
If Jiles is an errant throw specialist. He's definitely on the right team.
Liam Thompson?
The last 2-3 draft results can be applied to all other GMs, no one hits on all drafted talent, in fact most are ordinary at best. JS is the best GM since EA.
Can you guys look at Liam Thompson QB from Wabash.. we invited him to camp.. I know it’s a Division 3 level but this kid has lots of talent.. but on the short side( little over 6ft) but has lots of natural talent!
What happened to Bryce Ford Wheaton???? Out of WV
Blew out his ACL in the preseason last year, he's still on the roster
Jiles should be a PS guy.
The pessimism around the young giants players is nuts to me I think we’re loaded with young talent
look into UDFA we invited on defense elijah chatman
I think we need to understand that we will not be "in it" in September or October. That's not the kind of take we need as Giants fans. We don't have a good O Line, QB is a ????, and we have young pieces that need to grow.
As always, great job, Guys. Funny as all. Were you talking about Marcellus Johnson or Evan Neal?
I'm going to my place of worship to petition my creator that Dante Miller is the reincarnation of Dave Meggett.
Let's not get carried away. He's a chg of pace RB that should contribute on special teams.
Bobby knows O line. Strange the guaranteed money to Johnson who Bobby basically says stinks.
I’m not sure if Nick Gates should be mentioned in the same breath as Victor Cruz. Gates was likeable but he was not very good
You can grade Schoen by the players picked after ours and it’s not good. He’s left a ton of talent on the board and provided very little above replacement.
You could say this about every GM
@@jeffreyworthy5384 Can you.
You can not blame the GM for player development that is the fault of the coaches on the field and in the meetings not doing there job the GM is only responsible for bringing in players with talent that can be developed by the coaches the 1 thing you can put on Schoen is that he doesn't move off under performing coaches soon enough but that is more on the owners philosophy of not wanting to make changes in season even the coach hires was done by Daboll Evan Neal is a good example Schoen took Neal at 7 but Neal was seen as a can't miss generational tackle prospect he was graded higher in the predraft testing then Joe Alt was this year and Alt had some of the same technical problems as Neal being top heavy but Neal with the Giants does not look like Neal in Alabama not sure if that comes from not trusting his Guard or his footwork but he look like he has not just failed to develop he has fallen back in several ways that is not Schoen's fault he gave the coaches a talented OT prospect and the coaches have failed the player Neal worked hard last offseason on his own so I don't think it is lack of effort from Neal hopefully Bricillo will turn Neal around
Hi
Hwi Awndrew
I love it when some wanna be sports person attacks the actual professionals..they just need to stfu and observe
Maybe you should take your own advice.
You guys forgot a ufda. How could you forget the little Giant from Wabash. Liam Thompson highlights look crazy. Must be related to Liam Neesom because he slays people 😂 even got Manning award for player to watch. Sleeper qb? Division 3 though
He’s a mini camp invite, not an UDFA
@@TalkinGiants just curious what that means. They'll try him out for shits n giggles or come see if you like us n maybe next years draft if you get good. High hopes anyways, but I'm curious
13 minutes to get to the topic of the day.
Not sold on anything this organization is doing. It hasn’t been good enough, we want consistent winning!! The DJ contract was a tremendous blunder it was so obvious.
JJ McCarthy was the next QB. He’s going to be a great QB in the league, I guarantee it. Schoen’s drafting is horrible, why would he ever draft a slot Corner, we need a CB2. Could have drafted a good CB in round 2 & still gotten a good safety, as good as Nubin in the 3rd. But passing on McCarthy was the wrong move in my opinion. Everyone looks at the numbers, remember this guy was a TEAM player. In a RUN first Offense. So he didn’t throw 30-40 times like Jayden , Caleb & Maye. When he had to throw, he had less room for error, considering he threw it less than 25 times a game. But when they needed him, he made the plays. Everyone hates JJ, idk why. He is not Jones 2.0, he’s much better. DJ was a reach bc Gettleman fell in love with him at the Senior Bowl or wherever he saw him. Dumb. Might as well just be ready to draft Arch Manning because if we are picking top 6 next year, Daboll will not be here. And again the Eagles come out of this draft with 2 CB studs! Plus they come out of this draft with a ton of draft capital next year. Meanwhile Schoen, never traded back to gain extra capital. Schoen is like a solid 3 out of 10 so far in drafting. We will see what the year brings, draft is done. Hopefully they find some decent players as UDFA. Idk. 🤷
No it wasn't a mistake and Jones will be here for a third contract.Was Goff a mistake at 0-10.
Typical delusional bu!!$h1+ that comes off your fingertips.
No way the fastest and strongest RB in combine makes it through waivers. Deonte Banks 4.29 40 and 28 bench press is insane. Any team that wants speed and strength will claim him. Gray will make it thru waivers but not Banks.
What are you talking about? Deonte Banks is the Giants Safety-1, on his 2d of 5 years rookie contract, Gray is entering year 2 of his rookie contract.
@@pcarlson214Ooops, I meant deonte MILLER the RB. Got my deonte's mixed up.
@@pcarlson214The Giants will only carry 4 RB. Singletary and Tracy are locks so they will only keep 2 of: Gray, Miller, Corbin, Brightwell, and Jackson. So 3 of them will be cut and 1 will be signed to practice squad.
Disagree with Justin that Schoen "caused this situation". Pretend he didn't extend Jones or just franchised him. Picking 25th last year.. If either of those things happened how is the QB situation any different today?
You don’t have a $46M cap hit & $2 of dead money next year and lose Xavier McKinney
@@TalkinGiants Justin implied it was due to the QB room not being set that Schoen was preaching patience. If you did it different you have McKineny but still no QB. Which was my point
@TalkinGiants you're assuming McKinney wanted to be here. Also entering your 3rd year on the job with no real plan in place at your most important position is a problem.
McKinney did want to be here.
Okay but preaching patience at QB when you just paid one rings hollow
First
Wow
I'm still not sure that Schoen is any good at his job, after preaching patience in his initial presser, saying that they wouldn't skip any steps and that it would be a process to get this team where it needs to be to compete, he immediately tried to rush the process after the Giants won a playoff game.
Still waiting on his drafts to pan out, he traded a 3rd rounder for Darren Waller to play like 7 games for the Giants, and gave Jones that contract.
Waller was a gamble, but had he stayed healthy, he would have been a legitimate offensive weapon.
Let Slayton go and sign FA DJ Chark to a 1yr deal now and extend later?
I believe we need a better option as a WR2, Hyatt as a WR3 will put the right kinda pressure on defenses. Man we need 2 dogs at WR like we now have at EDGE.
That opinion or be hopeful that UDFA Chris Autman-Bell who kinda reminds me of a lesser Jaxon Smith-Nijiba type can be a solid WR2 for us.
Fire Joe and hire Bill.
Sooooooooooo tired of qb conversion
Forget winning more games we need a quarterback not Dinky Danny!! lose more for Shedeur!!!
Fuck no, Shedeur is toxic as fuck
Forget a QB until you have an even average starting offensive line. Mahomes wouldn't have won with last year's offense.
@@pcarlson214 Please stop with that bu!!$h!+ narrative.
Idk if you guys still do SHADYRAYYYYS, but I just want to say, they suck! They're $3 pieces of plastic.
Tommy devito was horrible at cuse. I wouldn’t compare it to the giants; he literally transferred because he could not beat out the starts. He is over rated by giants fans now
Nobody thinks he is good stop it
Devito is 🚮
Syracuse has been terrible for decades, that's not all on Devito. He looked good when he transferred.
@@onlybrandondyer if he was good he wouldn’t have gone undrafted. He wasn’t even comparable to Brock purdy for example. Purdy was way better. Devito came in cocky at Syracuse and didn’t even when the starting job lmao.
Red hot take: 3rd string QBs aren't better than starters.
I also preach patience. If the Giants start over every 4 years at the GM position how do you expect to have results on the field. These are my 2 cents. Keep up the good work, love your channel. I have been fallowing you since your o-line evaluations! This is my first ever comment. hahah