Never managed to clear AQ in vanilla, cleared it with my guild last week when 80% of the guild had never even been inside it before, the trash near cthun was more challenging than most of the bosses lol
When I started Classic C'Thun was my goal because even though I reached him in vanilla I never got to kill him. The first reset we got stuck on emps for around 2 hours and ran out of time after killing Ouro. Second reset we did 3 botched pulls on C'Thun and on the fourth try where we got everyone into the room alive we killed him easily. Viscidus proved to be the real end boss.
Just did first attempt tonight (gates opened yesterday). Our first planned run is Wednesday but we decided to go in for funsies and test the waters after our normal sunday raid. Had to pug a few people but not bad. Wiped on Skeram twice, then went on and one-shot the next 3 bosses. We didn't think we'd do that much tonight so nobody brought their NR gear and we called it quits then.
@Artuurs Z. You are subbed to anime, pewdiepie & a whole bunch of video game channels. You are trash in all aspects and your parents completely failed at raising you, tho I'm sure you were only raised by an alcoholic single mother. You project your anger onto ppl over the internet because you're insecure & hate your life.
don't worry, you only have data from the servers that have opened the gates. Just wait till our server gets the gates open, we'll wipe on the trash before the first boss.
classic is easy, if you expect any guild that has ever played bfa or legion content they will steamroll AQ40 and even naxx in undergear because lets be honest, Classic was never hard, people were complete shit at the game back then, now when we know about the 3 mechanics per raid aside from boss autoattacks you know its gonne be even easier
Atte Gröhn you talk big but link those Warcraft logs. even a guild name would suffice, if it’s easy you for sure have a cthun kill then? (Ignition, Whittaker, Rogue)
@@andrewmoluf4299 Or bringing twenty dps warriors who scale ridiculously with those buffs.... My guild wasn't top tier by any means in Vanilla....server 1st to 3rd depending on boss....beat Cthun reset after nerfi, rammed head against wall for a month....beat a couple wings in Naxx before "fuck this, TBC is about to make this all moot" set in.... But to be honest, nothing in Classic has had that joy of first kill on Domo, Rag, Vael, Chromag, Nef, Emps, Cthun, Visc and any non-spider Naxx boss. That struggle -> triumph WAS the game. Now my guild has beaten every boss in game and there's many folks I barely even know outside of generics like "Fury War with Chromatic Boots" or "He's still waiting on Garr Bindings" We simply haven't raised that much time-wise. Before AQ, we did like 3 hours every Tuesday as opposed to working at least double that on just the progression target every week...
Classic content was only ever a challenge because everyone was either afk, DC'd from dial-up, getting 5 fps, or a pug being taught through chat bubbles
Hell MC farming always took an assload of time because 5-15 people would be on follow for half the instance. It was impossible to get into their heads that if they concentrate for an hour we could be done but no they had to afk and pay partial attention for 2-4 hours depending on how many people brought alts.
Yep. People are already pugging AQ and there is a 100% chance that hundreds of guilds will down Naxx day 1 on release. Classic isn't as difficult as many people thought it was through a combination of rose-tinted-glasses and ramped up private servers.
@@Altobrun Granted Blizz did release everything on the 1.12 patch so the bosses are at their weakest and the gear is at its strongest outside of Thunderfury but yeah classic is not balanced around full raids of BiS geared, flasked, world buffed raiders.
Twins isn't Mechanically the same as what we're used to. After teleport the meele tank has to take an arcane blast to "root" the caster boss... Otherwise he'll just run to warlock and meele them.
@Adam Pattinson yeah, still early days to tell the exact mechanics. We had some issues and since inputting this strat we haven't had an issue... Only have the 2 kills to test though, but as I said, no issues with caster boss running around to meele people so far. Found it from watching APES vod's and studying the tank positions.
"Over 35% of guilds still had not completed a full clear halfway through the first reset, not quite the faceroll some may have thought." That's...a laughably low bar for "see it's not a faceroll!"
I’ve been raiding AQ40 on famous pserver (we all know the name) and AQ was really challenging, when we killed Cthun for first time the voice chad blowed up and that rly feeled like some sort of achievement. I think there can be 2 things why classic aq40 is easy: 1) pservers made it harder than it really was or 2) classic version is super nerfed
None of this stuff is going to be too hard if you've played WoW in the last few expansions. These raids were tuned with the expectation that people were not only not stacking world buffs, they would also be bringing "meme specs" cause those folks were in the guild and you liked them. They were not made to be min maxed as hard as the Classic community is doing. Things probably won't be remotely difficult for a modern player until maybe sunwell.
no actualy not just about min maxing... classic is NERFED as fuck compared to vanilla. We're playing at TBC nerfed prepatch atm just diffrent phrases. At vanilla u can even wipe at Gnomageran if u pull extra. all this happening Because majority of player base is 30+ years old and they have family jobs etc. they playing this game like a playstation game. Raiding at evening thats all. Im bit dissapionted yes. but in the end blizz had to do that for money. Vanilla difficulty means less active player im sure. Level boosting gold trading... bliz just all allow that. because they just know people dont have time.
@@burakkar1068 no. that is just your personal assumptions that your trying to pass as truth. Players are better now than they were 10 years ago. That is a proven fact. Information is more freely open and accessible, that is a proven fact. Gamers in general have adopted or understand meta and min/maxing a lot more than 10 years ago. That is another fact. So I have no idea where you get this NERFED classic from. Yes 1.13 is pre TBC, but none of the major changes have been made that reflects TBC changes. Only balance and bug fixes.
What makes it easy is mostly consumables and world buffs. They are so over tuned. And yo know... the fights already being figured out. People were studying what to do before the patch was even live.
I wonder just how """"common""" world buffs and consumable usage was back in Vanilla. I imagine a very good reason why the game was harder back then was because almost noone abused world buffs or consumables to the same degree players do today.
@@Tekshipie The only time I remember stacking world buffs was in BWL for Vael because we could be fairly certain of getting to him before 3/4ths of the raid has died and that was with a raid leader who really like playing the Min/Max game figuring things out with all the other spergs on Elitist Jerks. Any other progress fights it was just oh well most people will die before we hit that boss so it doesn't matter and for farm content it was grab 1 if someone says they have it. Part of this is probably because as Horde the trip for the ZG buff would take you a decent amount of time in a major PVP zone because people weren't as good at using the tricks to get around like camping some alts to summon.
The two biggest limiting factors for us back in vanilla was the roster boss and just understanding the fights. You would lose a core member to burn out, real life or some in game drama and have to replace him with some poached guy from a guild that couldn't even kill Ragnaros. After getting through the "farm" status bosses, you would smash against your progression wall for a few hours without making any real progress because you didn't have the luxury of watching a world class raid group clear the content with google spreadsheets and youtube guides to tell everyone what exactly they were supposed to be doing. It's not a fair comparison to look at people who were experiencing this content with fresh eyes against people who have 15 years of experience to lean on.
@@desyncer plus those 15 years of experience have made us used to more complex and punishing mechanics, where you have to perform your (usually way more complex) rotation on top of watching out for 4-5 things all going on at the same time. Compared to any modern wow boss classic ones are pretty much in the "tank and spank with some quirk" category.
We did our first AQ40 today, we absolutely blasted every boss before twin emperors, our guild members were joking how easy the raid was.. then came the anubisath defenders before twin emperors and we had our 5 first wipes or so, Twin emperors were the first real challenge and we managed to kill them on 6th try. Ouro also took us around 6 pulls. It feels like we are doing over half more dps it was back when I raided AQ in Vanilla. the player damage is so insane you can just ignore mechanics on the first bosses. Naxxramas is going to fall very fast also, I don't think Pathwerk dps check will be any challenge.
Same here, after the princess we wiped a lot on the trashs, the gates opened yesterday on benediction, so we did for fun, no consumables or world buffs, no dkp, just to see how it was and we got to the princess, we will need a more coordinate team, in 1 month or so we gonna nailed aq for sure
I think in Naxxramas this issue will be even more explicit. We didn't yet have very many important time based boss mechanic which can be completely avoided by simply out-dps-ing it. Ragnaros's submerge is a good example but other than that I can't recall any. However in Naxx many bosses have such mechanics. Anub'rekan's Insect Swarm, Noth's teleport to his balcony, Heigan's full raid dance, and Gluth's Decimate I believe. I'm not sure in all of these but I remember that in Naxx this thing is relevant and you can simply outdps some boss mechanics which are supposed to be the most determinating part of that particular fight.
Yep those defenders are like mini bosses, underestimate them and you get taken down real fast. Also skipping mechanics with full buffs is mad. We didnt get an add on our 2nd fankriss kill, had 2 enrage volley on huhuran i think. DPS is off the charts
@@WillEmmo honestly we lost world buffs due to random deaths pretty early and still wiped only once on twins and 3 times on viscidus. World buffs are not the issue, better players and better pcs and internet are the real deal.
Raiding was sooo much different back in the old days. Hardly any information available on the bosses. You just needed to figure them out by wiping ... a lot. World buffs were useless at the start of a new raid as you didn't had them long enough in general. While the game was more social back then, a bunch of people started theorycrafting and others developed certain addons that are still developed further today. Back then, there were no raid-frames, no boss mods, no utility-meter and no weak-auras and stuff available. They are just the result of some dedicated folks who put in the effort over time and gifted their work to the community. I still remember the first raids I did, there was just the party frame but there was no option to show the whole raid, let alone show any debuffs. We had to spread healers, dispellers and other key classes across the raids and therefore missed out on group synergies and what not. Weeks later, the first addons appeared like CT_Raid and stuff which made it possible to see all of the 40 players at once or decursive which allowed you to dispel any of the 40 members with a simple click instead of clicking through all 40 members to see who has a debuff. I.e. we had to assign druids and mages to their own groups just to click every member time and time again to check whether they had a curse on them which needed to get dispelled. Today, you already see all the debuffs in the build-in raid-frames or hammer a single button and call it done. So, were people really that bad back then? I don't think so. The lack of proper tooling made our lives way harder. Our melee DDs were talking off-raid about their rotation and abilities and about the numbers they see. The lack of information given to the player was also drastically limited and therefore their knowledge about their class or specs. There was no damage-meters or the like available and they just figured out what is more beneficial to them or to their class in general based on interpreting the numbers they see and on using stop watches and mob HPs to determine which abilities make more sense and which doesn't. On top of that, over time Blizzard patched the game a couple of times reducing mob health in older dungeons and adapting number on certain encounters. Also the change of certain class-tries, i.e. now all druids have innervate; it used to be the 31 resto talent; or mages now having an instant arcane explosion which neeeded 5 skill-points AFAIK before to get instant, lead to class balancing changes that overall lead to more raid-dps. In general I'd say that current encounters suffer like 15-30% health and/or damage compared to back then, which also plays into the feeling that classic content is way to easy. Also, don't forget that today much more gear is available on different toons compared to the old days. Ragnaros was killed within the first week, BWL cleared within 40 minutes after the gates opened also C'Thun and the rest of AQ40 fell multiple times on the first day. This, as a consequence, leads to much more gear available to the raids and therefore even more DPS/HPS/TPS compared to 15 years ago, let alone that the so-called meta, which also existed back then, is quite different now.
Our guild leader went mental and told everyone to get 4 flasks, 20 GSPP and GNPP etc. all kinds of consumables or you are at the bottom of the loot priority. Second reset we only used 4 GNPP and only tanks flasked. Lol.
My GM was demanding we start farming in March to have a flask for every AQ and every Naxx. I quit, I can do better things with my time-the game isn’t hard
Don't forget that people are also running 1.12 class builds for all raids vs 1.x builds from when each patch originally came out. Some classes were vastly different in earlier patches, mostly for the worst. Hopefully this will teach people in the future that its okay to run meme specs in classic servers. Everyone knows enough about the game that if you have a handful of people playing not so optimal specs, you'll still beat it. If anything you'll actually have a challenge, which is a hell a lot more fun. Bring in the Boomkins and Prot Pallys!
They're in denial that the game was a lot easier back then because everyone was a bad player and the internet wasn't as vast as it is today. Granted, people have been doing classic wow on private servers for years formulating the best way to do things, but honestly there isn't a single mechanic in classic wow that compares to top-end in retail. Anyone who believes otherwise at this point is just delusional. It's hilarious to me how many people on my classic server jack off to parses, when the rotations are 1-2 buttons and the highest parses are literally just stacking as many buffs as possible. I'm not denying there isn't some skill to some mechanics of classic, and it's hard to argue otherwise if you've seen venruki or ziqo duel each other. However, overall, classic is a bumbling mess of a game and I have never been more thankful to be playing a modern version of the game. There's definitely some shit on retail I dislike, but the good outweighs the bad by a large margin after playing classic.
@@jeffreyishmael5687 you clearly never played any other client than 1.12, back in 2004-2005 people had shit talents, gear and overall the classes werent nearly as polished as in 1.12. people dont realize we didnt have nearly as much of that fancy preraid gear that you have nowdays. just look up how brutal patch 1.1 actually was and u will understand. but yeah still internet and skill were big reasons but dont forget even back then we had good guilds who actually knew what they were doing, this idea that every1 back then was brain dead is so dumb and blows my mind how many ppl believe it, dont get me wrong there was alot of bad players then but not all of them
I think you guys are forgetting modern reliance on addons. I'd like to see how this data would look like without raiding addons which were not in use in Classic + TBC I played in Classic and TBC, and raided MC + BWL but never progressed further. In TBC I reached 4 bosses into Black Temple. It weren't so much skill as today people have the entire strategy laid out for them, back then you learned by trial and error 🤷
@@JaeyXVI for the same reason vanilla was hard you have brain dead konkeys not equipping their legendary and getting MC'd right as the fight starts other then that lfr nzoth is a joke as is all of bfa raiding
AQ 40 just open this weekend. And It was insane. On my first toon (mage) the road block was the trash that leads to twins and the twins themselves. The second toon ( paladin) well it was a mess we did not have enough melee meat shields with NR and Huhuran was a pain. Communication and understanding of the twin trash is important.
1. People are min-maxing like crazy. 2. The fights are well known 3. Everyone has better hardware and better internet 4. No slackers. Everyone are extremely engaged.
The only difficulty I've found in classic has just been preparation and not being lazy. Onyxia is the perfect case and point after getting attuned the hard part is over, takes longer to get to ony for my guild then it does to actually kill her.
Yes a lot of difficulty is in Lvling, preparing consumables, buffs, and getting attunement. I PUG with casuals and it is a fun rewarding challenge, im sick of people taking the best gamers in classic and saying "hurr durr that looks easy" you can do that with literally any game, especially a 40 man co-op RPG that's 15 years old.
did our 2nd full AQ40 clear last night, all 9 bosses 1 shot and no issues with trash. not bad for our 2nd week doing it. the true boss of this instance is definitely viscidus, the amount of consumes and coordination to down this cleanly is a nice change.
Stacking world buffs and full consumes is literally like slapping T2.75 gear onto whatever gear you have - I do not know why anyone is surprised that none of this content is challenging when they spend a few hours following research that others put into the game over years of time. Classic has this weird culture of players that are afraid to lose. It's a huge meme. Gold farmers have a field day with it though, an army of dad gamers trying to model themselves around Top 50 world guilds. Consuming their brains out, over preparing based on clickbait CZcams titles and Twitch streamers who hype it up for views - all in the name of ignoring mechanics completely in a raid so they can push their 3 buttons with impunity. You should look into the RMT culture of Classic and how microtransactions in video games over the years have changed player attitudes around things like buying gold to achieve their goals in video games. If you think those guys who login to the game 4 - 5 hours a week to gear up in raids can really keep up with the gold requirements for that kind of play, you crazy.
I'd argue it's like like a tier above and then some. As a warrior, having head buff means I basically have endless rage. Give me heart, songflowr, and dmt, now I not only have endless rage but I do 30%+ more damage than normal. It's honestly ridiculous.
Tbh the top guilds are dad gamers age wise too, just dont have the responsibilities that come with it. But yeah when you see people sitting in a boost from levels 20-60 then turn around and say token would ruin the game, does bring up some ? for me
I find the time to farm my own gold. But I also created a second account to level a mage on specifically for that purpose. AS to the world buffs - My guild is exceptionally well organized and we generally have a summon train to each different world buff. The biggest hurdle we found was definitely Visc, but after we realized that potions of poison resistance were a thing - it was just a matter of everyone spending an hour or so in the wetlands cave farming venom sacs. AQ is not overly difficult if you come prepared.
@@WillEmmo yah was more speaking towards the idea that unless you're actually a top competitive guild there's no reason to consume and world buff as heavily as people do, especially if the argument is that you want the Vanilla experience where this stuff was considered extremely difficult. WoW Token in Classic would solve so many issues economy wise, since as you put it, the majority of Classic players are adults with an income.
Maybe it was indeed mathematically impossible. Maybe the numbers indeed didn't add up. How can u know? Blizzard said that it was indeed mathematically impossible. And that was the old good blizzard.. they lied or what? Anyway with today's standards people will find a way to clear pretty much anything u throw at them. Gamers weren't that good back then, they weren't rich with x100000 consumables and world buffs and at least half the raid had a garbage PC with plenty of DCS.
akhs denlew it was „mathematically impossible“ if you take the realistic raidsetup and dps values from classic back in the days, yes. That doesn’t mean however that a completely minmaxed raidsetup with today’s players would do the same dps from back then. Someone did the math again and it would still be very hard, but it would be possible to kill pre nerf Cthun
The game has always been easy in the grand scheme. What made classichatd, and early BC tiers as well, was just general disorganization. You had people that had zero business doing stuff dragging down groups. Everyone knows what to do and there is no learning curve.
you are playing classic not vanilla so....classic is fully nerfed version of vanilla with itemization in it = every stat on item has been changed to make it stronger...so i guess you never experiencded genuine vanilla ...thats ok..most didnt but comment a lot how it was easy..lol...cute talk but far from facts...as far as we can see..and proved by numerous videos..player skill is much worst now then during vanilla...pvp is so bad that 99 % have NO idea what their classes can do or should do..check videos of old players showing how bad skill average has gone down in 15 years...facts bro facts..only facts pls
@@jankopandza1072 yes definetely i tried to tell them but they cant understand. They think before 15 years EVERYONE MUST BE IDIOT AND NOOB. No just no man. even the hardcores at that days exist and i heard from 1st persons mount" vanilla was hard as fuck " . Its not real aq40 patch or it was not mc40 patch before in classic. GUILDS WERE DISBANDING AT RAGNAROS. can u believe that ? some of lfr fights even harder then ragnaros classic. How a guild can unsuccess at ragranos dude ? in vanilla they were killing it with 2 submerge. Todays classic ragnaros killed without fire resist and without some level 60's. In vanilla it was imposible. last week i killed princes huhu with zero nature resistance gear ( only greater nature resistance potion ) . and zero world buffs. In vanilla u just die if u dont have nature resist gear. And people still saying we are smarter, better tech, youtube videos, bis lists. **__** . people just copy what they read at internet. there' no real life experience. u know what is going on happen at naxx dude? all fucking guilds gonna clear at WEEK 1. and they start to say yeah 15 years old game. They will even say this LEGENDARY VANILLA NAXX
@@jankopandza1072 Nah its not nerfed. You and your guild and other guilds just sucked balls back then. Or you never played vanilla either and are going by what it "Felt" like on a private server without the proper item values/boss stats. You find LBRS hard? My guild disbanded on a LBRS run...guess that means it was insanley hard content right? Nope it means my guild was dogshit.
Guild just cleared AQ40 last night, it was a lot of fun compared to previous raids. We wiped on Twin Emps 3 times, Ouro 1, C'Thun 1, and Viscidus 2. Some trash definitely felt harder than the actual boss. Yeah it was probably much easier than what it was back in the day but when all the knowledge is out there, that's to be expected.
Vanilla raiding was always going to be a joke. Retail has made people too good compared to vanilla. Why on earth do people suggest that AQ40 or Naxx is going to be any different? A heroic raid guild leader would have no problem organizing a fight like the twin emps. It's so simple compared to modern wow's mechanics.
Retail hasnt made people good lol. Its the fact that the content has been played by the majority for 10+ years on pservers. Naxx is the one thatll be hard as only 1% of the wow pop even made it into naxx and most pservs have bugged classes or content so those who did naxx in those servers will have a diif experience
I don't get why retail players feel the need to circle jerk in the comments of videos about classic. Obviously the raids are easier. The hard part is the much bigger time commitment. You have to grind your ass off if you want to stay on top of consumes and reputation rewards. And gearing is a lot harder than in retail where you just do a few mythic+'s
My top 500 french guildon retail became the top 5 french guild on classic. From wiping on mother heroic to rolling on the raids on vanilla. Retail is so time consuming that people wanted to go to vanilla to stop the non stop farming what are you on about?
Classic uses the 1.12 patch - ie All content is presented in the post-nerf state. Alas no pre-nerf C'thun. Nor @Joshua will there be any pre-nerf Naxx, it will also be full cleared day 1.
Most challenging part for classic is RLing and study tactics - 40 ppl are alot harder to manage than 25 ppl, itemization is also slower, required more consumables, etc.
Like everything in Classic the difficulty will come from the prep, not from the actual raid. If you have your world buffs and consumes you will probably roll Naxx
Naxx was imo easier than AQ in Vanilla. We never killed Ouro or Viscidus but we pretty much zerged everything up to 4HM. Now imagine what will happen with better knowledge, addons, gear, connections and pcs... Nevertheless it will still be the best raid in Classic, just don't get your hopes up on the difficulty part.
Yeah, I can agree that the prep is more valuable than actual skill to defeat the bosses, but I'm pretty sure Naxx can't be zerged, it will at least give some people a reason to play rotations properly and dodge shit.
@@Linoo12 Naxx will be very easily zerged thanks to the huge amount of damage players do right now compared to 2006. A perfect example is Fankriss in Classic. In vanilla this boss had actual mechanics, but in classic my average guild managed to kill him around the time when first snakes spawn. For comparison's sake I looked up few fankriss kill videos from vanilla and they get first snakes around 70-80%. This is the guild example Naxx is tuned for.
@@esaesaeesaesa whats kind of weird to me is how the dps is this much higher, considering the rotations havent changed anything since original vanilla, as a mage you still spam fireball/frostbolt for 5 minutes straight for example, so im baffled as to why the reported dps numbers are so much higher now than they were in vanilla
Having played actual end of vanilla content I can say this;blizzard really borked some of the scaling on bosses and abilities. From what I have seen there are folks pulling mid BC damage output in far inferior gear.
Před 4 lety
Heroic Strike bug is causing warriors to deal insane damage that wasnt possible in old vanilla, some casters have bugged talents that allow them to heal or dps way more than they should have (Spiritual Guidance talent for priests is the most infamous one in Classic right now)
Private servers were tuned differently than classic. It's like they had accounted for people having worldbuffs etc mobs had way more hp and did more damage - it became apparent to me in BWL already.. I was a protwarrior with shield and i got 1-shot, no crit 10k dmg by Fangkriss adds. The big beetle trash in AQ40 did massive damage like 5-6k enrage hits. Ouro was super hard hit like a truck, had so much hp, 1-2 died on every burrow. Ossirian in AQ20 had like 15% chance crushing blow you with shield on for like 6-7k.
I keep seeing all these people who say they expected these classic raids to be hard. They were back in vanilla because they were brand new, fresh, never-seen-before content. Nobody had a clue what to expect. Now, people enter them 15 years later, many have already done them back in the day or have seen one of the hundreds of videos showing how to beat, low-man or cheese these raids.
Classic was hard 15 years ago because we had no real info going around for all players to see. It’s harder to AOTC now then it is to clear a classic Raid, which most players can do just cuz of CZcams
you compare classic pve to LFR, both are equally easy, you could never compare mythic retail raids to classic raiding, mythic retail is just from another realm in the compartment of complexity, difficulty and really everything else, mythic ra-den alone has more mechanics than all of classic combined
"35% of guilds not having completed BWL by the end of the second reset" is a criteria for "not quite as faceroll as it wa made out to be? We're talking about 65% of the guilds taking less than 2 reset to fully clear the dungeon.
We did a full clear in two sessions, one 4 hour up to Ouro, and then Ouro&Cthun bringing us to server 9th, horse 3rd (RIP Mirage Raceway). We could have been faster but don't really give a shit about rankings as a guild. We went fully prepared with 150nr available on everyone and 315 NR on all melee for soaking. It felt a bit more challenging than BWL despite the prep. It did however already break a couple guilds on my server. We've been preparing for KT since day one of raiding and I expect us to have the least issues compared to our contemporaries, but that doesn't mean it's going to be easy. 7P: Proper preparation and planning prevents piss poor performance.
The biggest problem back in the day was burnout. Not bosses. Not gearing nor farming buffs. Burnout. One of my guilds straight up quit on AQ40 because we were losing people constantly. It was too long. Too few people showed up. Everyone came out for MC, BWL, ZG, AQ20 because you could get gear for that. Plus, the itemization for many classes was just not good. Druids finally have your "you can do ANYTHING" set. Oh wait, you can do anything terribly. Yay? The other guild ran through but got stuck on Twins because of burnout. We still had people who wanted to get Bindings. Or that last piece of T2. Or their weapon from BWL. Or some of the off gear from ZG and AQ20 that was better itemized than other stuff. Lastly, who knew what you were going to get in the raid. Not people, but mechanics, bosses, or random internet issues. Hey, you were doing GREAT! Then your best Shammy DCs and no heals or totems for you. Someone didn't update their addons, so oops, they pulled aggro. Even the very good guild that cleared everything except AQ40, just didn't find it rewarding. We killed C'Thun? Yeah, F this place. Let's go pvp until Naxx. Rofltstomp Alliance is just fun, especially when we roll deep in AV. Yes, if you take all the knowledge away, put the internet back to 2006, have people who have NO IDEA about how mechanics work, addons being just not even close to current addons, people still not knowing what a good spec actually was because the math was still kind of unknown for some parts (hunters have NEGATIVE crit? WTF?!) then yes, AQ40 was hard. The worst part was, if you knew how the game worked and how it ran, then no, it just wasn't work the headache. Especially the trash. GOOD GOD THE TRASH! Pacing mechanics this nutter butters. A guild found a hack to bypass the trash. Most of us raiders actually cheered them on, because F that noise! Was it hard compared to modern wow, or even when I quit raiding WHATLICK WoW? Nah. For the time, yes. Get rid of the trash and keep a stable raider roster, not that hard. Plus, more mechanically difficult raids were more fun IMO. Of course, it led to the whole issue of "gimmick bosses" which drove me insane. I prefer absolute chaos bosses. Of course, a nice easy Patchwerk was a nice breather. Just GOOOoooooOOOO!
The biggest difference to BWL is the time investment. 2 of 3 Raids I am doing didn't manage to down the bosses due to only having a single raid day and a non full progress attitude. This problem will become even bigger with naxx. For a casual Raid 4 hours of weekly raid time in progress makes it pretty hard.
I got made fun of in here for saying it wasn't gonna be a guild crushing difficult raid. Class is comical in so many areas. Truly glad I stopped raid logging months back and unsubbed. Craziest thing is people slaved away just to unlock this joke of a raid. Its depressing.
have loved my time with classic, first time ever playing wow before legion (i was a guild wars kid back in the day) and im eagerly awaiting BC now but honestly raiding bored me to death lol I did MC and Zul Garub and honestly felt like it took 10x longer than it did because of how dull of an experience it was, i love the dynamic of 5 player dungeons in classic , levelling and dungeons and doing some battlegrounds was what kept me having fun but classic raiding just wasn't for me
In my guild we blasted through MC and BWL on opening day without any issues, think we wiped once on Firemaw in BWL, thats about it. We have 45ish minutes clear on BWL and we're not even sweating it. Most of our raiders parse between 80 and 99. We do not consider ourselves hardcore by any means. Worldbuffs and consumables are completely optional in our guild, although most people bring them. We entered AQ on Sunday on first opening week (Gehennas EU). We got stomped so bad by trash and bosses inside AQ. For once we actually had a challenge ahead of us. On first night we skipped Huhuran after 3 wipes (most melee lacked appropriate NR gear). Only to wipe 5 times on the trash between Huhuran and Twins. We wiped 4 times on Twins before we called it a night, since we had been raiding for 4 hours already. Next week on Wednesday we went in and cleared up until after Twins. Second time was easier of course since we now had some experience with the trash and bosses. Yesterday on Sunday we spent all day on C'tun and finally got him down after 3.5 hours of progression. We tried Ouro and wiped a couple times sub 10%. We still have Ouro and Viscidus left to kill. AQ might be "easy" but believe me for your "slightly above average guild" AQ is still challenging and isn't exactly a walk in the park.
he's not a hater, he's being truthful, his rose tinted glasses wore to nothing and now he sees how ridicilously easy semi afk shit simulator classic truly is
My guild is struggling with AQ due to the fact, we never had more than 34 people + some of them leaving mid raid due to work. We managed to kill everything up to Huhuran incl. (Viscidus excl.) and then got a humiliated by Anubisath Sentinels. It frustrates me to see other guilds facerolling through AQ as if it was lvl 30 dungeon, everyone saying it's easy etc. And I believe it is easy though, but the lack of people makes it really difficult for us. Many would advise me to change guild, but this guild is mostly the reason why I'm still playing - great and funny people + I've also built a decent reputation here and my opinion matters. If anyone can test it in a raid setup with 8 people short, lack of melee soakers on Huhuran and actually manage to kill C'thun, please drop a comment here and I'll use my whip on other guildies to push those slackers
With phase 5 release our guild has been an exclusively non-world buff guild. This is probably the best decision we've ever made, we killed twin emperor's tonight and it felt amazing. Everyone plays the game more as we don't have to save world buffs in advance anymore and the content is less faceroll, it took us many attempts to get twins down
So when I made this I thought more servers had the gates open than it turns out did. I found a gate tracker the other day - ironforge.pro/aqtracker/ Anyways, let me know how AQ40 went for you all, just did my 2nd clear, was solid - tanked emps, and was a 1 shot ofc. WillE
ur delusional my dude there is no diff between classic raids they are all share one thing press one button to kill the boss,the fact that people are bringing top guilds as way to defend the raid diff is just a joke cuz almost 90% of the guilds did it with the first week
Interesting video WillE; couple things. Since several of the bosses are optional, don't you think the lack of logs for those bosses could be explained by people skipping them rather than being unable to beat them? I don't know how wow logs classic work exactly, e.g. the number of times a guild wipes on each boss isn't clear unless you look at their parse/log history. A second thing; I think the 8/9 disparity (i.e. are only 3-4 guilds pushing C'Thun?) you mentioned might be an issue with the wow log classics. You can go to the second page of the 9/9 clears and see there are many guilds that actually only have 8/9 or 7/9 clears logged but they are counted as 9/9 because, presumably, they beat C'Thun. imgur.com/aJRNjFH
@@brianadam6718 That does make more sense, it was a bit confusing for me to read into how the info was actually being conveyed from logs. I didnt consider skips tbh, though I think thats gonna be quite a small portion of guilds aiming for server first kills perhaps.
0 NR Huhuran is trivial for any decent guild. Viscidus is also not actually hard at all, it just requires your raid to have frost weapons and poison resistance pots. Once people figure out there's hyperfarms for large venom sacs Viscidus will become a normal kill for everyone that puts in a bit of effort.
why do people say it was easier than expected? thought it was common knowledge that private servers tuned the numbers up to make it more difficult, not sure what pserver it was that people flamed for being too easy when in fact it was probably the closest to classic. basing health armor etc. on the original values was dumb because all spells, talents and gear are based on the 1.12 client. but it is what it is, sad that we didnt get to see prenerf cthun.
waiting the 5 days to open, but i agree with many ppl saying we should had the pre fix C´thun , maybe that will be a challenge, bc now everybody knows the mechanics , ppl had played in private servers, so is waaaay easier than figuring out what to do
The "classic is actually difficult" crowd keeps moving the goalposts back the longer things go on. Now, if people enjoy content, that is fine. No disrespect to what people want. The problem is that many of the "pro classic" people vehemently hate retail and don't show that same level of respect to people who enjoy retail. Retail players were said to be "baby mode" "ez mode" "carebear," among other garbage. It was said to have "no skill required." Yet classic is demonstrably low skill. They just make excuses for it instead of owning it. That is the problem. They looked down on retail players while doing content that is dramatically easier.
Classic elitists were always losers on live servers. No real experience as serious raiders. Classic offered them a new niche to derive authority through
Only thing that made classic hard was what we had available. Ball mouse, Tube tv monitors, specs that couldn’t run an iPhone, and 250ms that made you run still every hour.
I raided mythic on Retail and it's a much better raiding experience than Classic. Raids are harder, rotations are more complex, and mechanics are more plentiful. But the thing that is MUCH better in Retail is that post-wipe recovery takes absolutely no time. You wipe, you just spawn back at the start of the boss area, and it takes like 2 mins to setup again and engage. You can have 10 wipes on a progress boss and not feel that frustrated because you're just constantly playing the game. In Classic, even one wipe can sour the mood A LOT because it's like taking an involuntary 10 mins break.
No ones pretending its hard, we just dont pretend spending 30 hours a week min maxing and using guides as our own accomplishments and then call it easy as we have someone tell us exactly what spec to play with exactly what gear and exactly who to invite and exactly how to do the hokey pokey while in the raid. You guys folllow 10 guides on every aspect of the game follow the setupd made by and figured out by other people, and then call it easy. Its not easy, someone just told you exactly what to do step by step
Every raid in Classic is going to be easy when the raid is fully world buffed. I find the Classic meta around world buffs to be very frustrating and I look forward to Classic TBC. Its actually insane that raids get fully world buffed and then claim the game is to easy, its like they expect Blizzard to tune the fights around everyone having world buffs. Imagine if a raid wipe meant that everyone in the raid would need to go re-farm world buffs.
The problem is more that the buffs are too strong than that the content is too weak. I will point out though that even without world buffs many groups are having few or no issues with the content.
you can't blame it on world buffs when even without the content is faceroll. "Imagine if a raid wipe meant that everyone in the raid would need to go re-farm world buffs." Do you know any actual classic guild that goes and take world buffs again if they wipe? Because the usual reaction is "oh well, guess we'll take half an hour longer to clear now".
@@lottoo5693 not to the extent of fury/prot tanks, because I can't see a fury/prot warrior tanking hard hitting bosses in TBC, but even if they release patches progressively I agree it'll be a joke.
@@joshuaroe1402 you say that yet, retail has arenas where skill cap is shown, has top 100 mythic raiding which shows skill cap, and has mythic plus which shows skill cap. I hate retail, but one thing it does not lack is end game skill cap.
35% Naxx clear is REALLY high week one. That raid is SIGNIFICANTLY longer in duration that will naturally bring the % cleared much lower. I think it'll be 15-20% since even the most prepared raids with 2 nights/ week not clearing.
"How bout dat difficulty?" is people outting themselves as not having raided back then. The only thing considered tough in AQ40 back then was the trash after Emps and then C'thun before it was nerfed, because that did happen. Guild breaker back then is fine, you just join a different guild. Today if your Mythic guild is broken, good luck finding another one as easily.
I raided back then, I knew it was going to be easy and I don't care, doesn't need to be hard to be fun, people that actually raided back then and don't have brain damage all knew it was going to be easy these days.
The only difficult part of classic is having the determination to run the same boring raids every week, farm mats and get every world buff over and over.
@@22Epic I stopped playing since the game was shit. easy AF, without content, and blizzard butchered it with every patch. (Removing builds and interactions, vanilla spirit much?) When I played I never used them, I like to have to look at my screen while playing.
First time in my entire life going into AQ, prepped and stayed up for 27 hours to make sure everything was set, only to blow past everything besides Anubisath giants which had some strategies to it (which can be figured out in 2 minutes with 2 groups of people) wiped on twin emperors after everyone was tired from gate opening, came back today, killed emps, got cthun to 40% first try. Dps kept dying and we didn’t have any buffs. The point is, I spent a crazy long time thinking something was going to be damn near impossible do to hearing all the stories and boom lmao it was easier for me than BwL and this is my first year ever playing classic.
Oh ye the constant bitching about worldbuffs, the worldbuffs timer addon that constantly gets spammed in the guild chat. I wish they would remove it. You dont need it for anything and it might make the content a tiny bit more challenging.
@@SuacoRV Why should they remove the world buffs ? You know you can go raid without them if you don't want them ? I love when people are complaining about world buffs and still use them :D It's like the ICC buff in WoTLK, people where complaining when the buff was optionnal. You want even more challenges ? Try cleaning the raids in full blue gear. The game is what you want it to be. Still you are going raiding with full buffs and consumable, maybe what's you're looking for is an easy game ?
We got to the Twin Epms in week one (skipping Viscidus), but couldn´t try them as its holiday season and several core raid members are on vacation, therefore only had 1 Warlock in the raid. ^.^ Didn´t expect to go this far on the first AQ40 raid anyway so not exactly unhappy about the performance.
the nature of humans ruined WoW. Greed ruined it. even in a fucking game everything is about money now, basically all i see is cunts sellling boosts, tanks renting themselves out. People transferring with some shitty books just to make some virtual coins. People forgot how to have fun.
@Mercb3ast the only time classic was hard was before tbc when everyone was new and super shit at the game, internet stability was unherd of and pcs ran like shit, i can tell you even if vanilla was just released instead of 2005, like for modern pcs, i can quarantee you some guild would have nuked all of its content within a month a few times over if it all was unlocked all the way to naxx from the get-go
It was harder back then when it was current content, thats why bosses lived for so long, everyone is used to much more mechanically hard fights now and hardware side theres no lag, no fps drop, no mom needing to use the phone so you dc on dial up, etc
So many people were advocating for classic cause private servers. Say what you want if they may or mayn't be harder speaking about lights hope/nost that claimed it didn't scale its content. But lightshope felt right. the issue is no one knows exactly the health/damage of bosses back then but blizzard claims it has a reference client which has failed multiple time with in game mechanics being absent or bugged or abilities not working right. Take a stroll down old content videos and you can see bosses health being much different from bosses in classic. My theory is they tuned it down for so many people.
This is the nerfed version of AQ and Vanilla through and through, nobody wants to admit it though. Vanilla was rock fking hard not to mention it was all new content back then, so EVERYONE had to learn when it was released, no years of testing and private servers.
@@cattysplat yes i tried to tell them but its imposible. Everybody thinkin " yes after 16 years old mechanics and technology its is but in the and its same" Just no dude :D there's no complicated mechanic in vanilla that u can master it after 16 years later. It was hard because all mobs was harder to kill.
there is some difficulty in Classic WoW ? with all the released nerfs and itemization = all stats on itmes are changed so stats during vanilla and Classis are WAY different..im really feed up with players writing hard core or similar in classic...there is no hard core in classic or progress..every pug in game can finish any raid because of all the nerfs and itemization so...difficulty and Classic ? hardly..
Having to spend a lot of time on something creates the illusion of difficulty. Classic is a grinding simulator where you know EXACTLY what you're doing and getting from it before even beginning. For gods sake the best Mage rotation is LITERALLY 1 spell cast non-stop. You don't need the rest. Just frostbolt. Classic is not hard.
People have had almost 15 years now to practice and create strategies. Even if a lot of that time was on private servers with altered stats, mechanics, whatever. I would almost be more surprised if both AQ and Naxx AREN'T cleared day 1.
its funny how people say classic is harder when it takes 2 weeks for 2k guilds to clear a tier compared to an entire patch for 2k guilds to clear a tier
An 8th grade maths test is way easier when you're in 10th grade. Some friends and I have 10+ years vanilla experience (private servers + retail) and could probably do ct blindfolded. I could name you every BiS piece up to any boss/content with the exact stats and viable substitutes (for my 3-4 most played classes anyway). Do you think a raid full of people like us does have any issues with aq40? I can guarantee you (because it happened a lot lol) that new folks aren't gonna blast through this kind of content.
As long as you have a couple of warrior putting a shield on and click the taunt button... only the champion can be taunt... the other are immune to taunt....
@@holla1992 how is he a baby when even LFR is harder than anything in classic lol, you classic andies are just delusional as fuck. If you enjoy the game thats cool but dont act like its even remotely difficult
@@JaeyXVI Retail is for babies who enjoy collecting mounts, transmogs, candy crush dailies and obliterating mobs in the world with no real danger whilst being referred to as 'CHAMPION' every 10 seconds.
Seriously, I dont get it, its like studying all wekk for a test you know the answers too, still copying someone elses test answers and then bragging about how smart you are
@@mdamon06 I remember raiding Karazhan (first ever raid I did) Blood elf paladin, i spent weeks hardcoring the game to get the keys to unlock heroic dungeons, i got some gear and I was absolutely awful at the game, i showed up to raid and not one of us had a clue how to do the boss encounters, we got rolled by every boss, and when we finally got a kill we were absolutely estatic. We used to try figure out how to do the bosses without guides, and classic with all this knowledge people have is just not how warcraft was meant to be played.
What I don't understand is why blizzard didn't detect the wand and eye beam bugs in aq40 during their own testing. The eye beam bug was instantly noticeable by everyone who pulled C'Thun.
Also one thing that has stood the test of time: boss damage. Twin Emperors hit so damn hard we had to flask our tanks and warlocks who have the absolutely best gear available on them. Many of these encounters would be very difficult if player damage was not so high to trivialize whole encounter mechanics. Bosses and monsters die way too fast to be any challenge.
I Think the results might be scewed for AQ40. The servers that have the Gates open at day 1 are those generally populated by tryhard guilds. Those servers that havent opened the Gates yet probably wont have it as easy clearing it all
for the guild im in Our Legacy we were only really time limited first week and twin emp is definitly harder than cthun 3rd attempt on cthun and 9 wipes before our first twin emp kill, we are lacking NR gear on our raid for visidious as we are not an engineer heavy guild i dont really think its harder than BWL its more of a learning curve on the mechanics second we we 2 attempted twin emp while down a warlock also ouro was an interesting fight for a caster heavy guild as those threat wipes didnt hit the casters all that often so we had to rotate our casters in for sand blast to manage threat
feelsbadman our guild wasnt part of the statistic of clearing BWL first week :( it was a nightmare getting 40 people online in time and through the queues and THEN we had a huge mass raid disband across the whole server! during Chromagus THE WHOLE server threw everyone out of their raid groups and we couldnt reform, so we all got mass tp'd to kargath!! but AQ was a whole lot easier than expected, I kinda like it just a big long winded (also last person to get the mount)
Visc we 1 shot cuz of sappers xD. It's definitely harder than BWL, but as I expected a decent guild wouldn't have trouble clearing it 1st week. I am expecting Naxx however to be a little bit different, there are a few bosses in there that will be actual challenge....
NO raid in classic is "Hard". The biggest reason it was considered hard back in the day was the lack of available and easy to access information. Today u can get exactly to the 1 hitpoin of accurate information on a given encounter for whatever raids u are doing. And not only that, back in vanilla the computers and the servers of blizzard could barely handle the game not to mention the extremely powerful addons that exists today. Any person with somewhat of a brain realizes that classic wont be even remotely as hard as even the easiest raid in retail. The real challenge comes from managing bad players and the extremely tedious pre-grind chores , that's about it.
Another thing to consider that may make the data less accurate is the fact that AQ40 is really bloody long. The trash is super time consuming and most of the guilds out there wont be doing elaborate trash skips. This is most likely the biggest gatekeeper, especially for guilds that raid one night a week or so.
Never managed to clear AQ in vanilla, cleared it with my guild last week when 80% of the guild had never even been inside it before, the trash near cthun was more challenging than most of the bosses lol
When I started Classic C'Thun was my goal because even though I reached him in vanilla I never got to kill him. The first reset we got stuck on emps for around 2 hours and ran out of time after killing Ouro. Second reset we did 3 botched pulls on C'Thun and on the fourth try where we got everyone into the room alive we killed him easily.
Viscidus proved to be the real end boss.
Just did first attempt tonight (gates opened yesterday). Our first planned run is Wednesday but we decided to go in for funsies and test the waters after our normal sunday raid. Had to pug a few people but not bad. Wiped on Skeram twice, then went on and one-shot the next 3 bosses. We didn't think we'd do that much tonight so nobody brought their NR gear and we called it quits then.
Yeah that trash is pretty nasty if you just stack em and see what happens lol
Yeah its sad isnt it. You think you do but you dont
@Artuurs Z. You are subbed to anime, pewdiepie & a whole bunch of video game channels. You are trash in all aspects and your parents completely failed at raising you, tho I'm sure you were only raised by an alcoholic single mother. You project your anger onto ppl over the internet because you're insecure & hate your life.
don't worry, you only have data from the servers that have opened the gates. Just wait till our server gets the gates open, we'll wipe on the trash before the first boss.
classic is easy, if you expect any guild that has ever played bfa or legion content they will steamroll AQ40 and even naxx in undergear because lets be honest, Classic was never hard, people were complete shit at the game back then, now when we know about the 3 mechanics per raid aside from boss autoattacks you know its gonne be even easier
Atte Gröhn you talk big but link those Warcraft logs. even a guild name would suffice, if it’s easy you for sure have a cthun kill then?
(Ignition, Whittaker, Rogue)
Commenting to see what happens.
trash is harder than the bosses tbh
👀
The thing that sums up Vanilla vs Classic experience:
".....full world bluffs and we just used our forty sapper charges...."
surprised more people haven't mentioned the sappers.....every dps is also a demolitions expert these days too lol
@@andrewmoluf4299 Or bringing twenty dps warriors who scale ridiculously with those buffs....
My guild wasn't top tier by any means in Vanilla....server 1st to 3rd depending on boss....beat Cthun reset after nerfi, rammed head against wall for a month....beat a couple wings in Naxx before "fuck this, TBC is about to make this all moot" set in....
But to be honest, nothing in Classic has had that joy of first kill on Domo, Rag, Vael, Chromag, Nef, Emps, Cthun, Visc and any non-spider Naxx boss.
That struggle -> triumph WAS the game. Now my guild has beaten every boss in game and there's many folks I barely even know outside of generics like "Fury War with Chromatic Boots" or "He's still waiting on Garr Bindings" We simply haven't raised that much time-wise. Before AQ, we did like 3 hours every Tuesday as opposed to working at least double that on just the progression target every week...
Classic content was only ever a challenge because everyone was either afk, DC'd from dial-up, getting 5 fps, or a pug being taught through chat bubbles
exactly... we had a maintank who got DC everytime a ferry drove past his house
Lmao yup
Hell MC farming always took an assload of time because 5-15 people would be on follow for half the instance. It was impossible to get into their heads that if they concentrate for an hour we could be done but no they had to afk and pay partial attention for 2-4 hours depending on how many people brought alts.
Yep. People are already pugging AQ and there is a 100% chance that hundreds of guilds will down Naxx day 1 on release. Classic isn't as difficult as many people thought it was through a combination of rose-tinted-glasses and ramped up private servers.
@@Altobrun Granted Blizz did release everything on the 1.12 patch so the bosses are at their weakest and the gear is at its strongest outside of Thunderfury but yeah classic is not balanced around full raids of BiS geared, flasked, world buffed raiders.
out of all the guilds that killed Skeram, "only" 63% killed twin emperors in opening days.
How is that only?
Many had bugged IDs aswell where the caster twin went melee on the casters and never stopped melee.
Twins isn't Mechanically the same as what we're used to. After teleport the meele tank has to take an arcane blast to "root" the caster boss... Otherwise he'll just run to warlock and meele them.
Yeah I guess thats quite a few huh lol, maybe only should have applied just for Vicidus
@Adam Pattinson yeah, still early days to tell the exact mechanics. We had some issues and since inputting this strat we haven't had an issue... Only have the 2 kills to test though, but as I said, no issues with caster boss running around to meele people so far. Found it from watching APES vod's and studying the tank positions.
"Over 35% of guilds still had not completed a full clear halfway through the first reset, not quite the faceroll some may have thought."
That's...a laughably low bar for "see it's not a faceroll!"
I’ve been raiding AQ40 on famous pserver (we all know the name) and AQ was really challenging, when we killed Cthun for first time the voice chad blowed up and that rly feeled like some sort of achievement. I think there can be 2 things why classic aq40 is easy: 1) pservers made it harder than it really was or 2) classic version is super nerfed
None of this stuff is going to be too hard if you've played WoW in the last few expansions. These raids were tuned with the expectation that people were not only not stacking world buffs, they would also be bringing "meme specs" cause those folks were in the guild and you liked them. They were not made to be min maxed as hard as the Classic community is doing. Things probably won't be remotely difficult for a modern player until maybe sunwell.
no actualy not just about min maxing... classic is NERFED as fuck compared to vanilla. We're playing at TBC nerfed prepatch atm just diffrent phrases. At vanilla u can even wipe at Gnomageran if u pull extra. all this happening Because majority of player base is 30+ years old and they have family jobs etc. they playing this game like a playstation game. Raiding at evening thats all. Im bit dissapionted yes. but in the end blizz had to do that for money. Vanilla difficulty means less active player im sure. Level boosting gold trading... bliz just all allow that. because they just know people dont have time.
@@burakkar1068 No. Even if they would gave us AQ in the AQ Patch we would steamroll through it.
@@burakkar1068 I really hate people like you.
@@burakkar1068 no. that is just your personal assumptions that your trying to pass as truth. Players are better now than they were 10 years ago. That is a proven fact. Information is more freely open and accessible, that is a proven fact. Gamers in general have adopted or understand meta and min/maxing a lot more than 10 years ago. That is another fact. So I have no idea where you get this NERFED classic from. Yes 1.13 is pre TBC, but none of the major changes have been made that reflects TBC changes. Only balance and bug fixes.
@@burakkar1068 not true, p-server just did it wrong
I feel like we´re at a point where its just self repeating how "15 years, minmaxing and world buffs" obviously made things simple.
What makes it easy is mostly consumables and world buffs. They are so over tuned.
And yo know... the fights already being figured out. People were studying what to do before the patch was even live.
I wonder just how """"common""" world buffs and consumable usage was back in Vanilla. I imagine a very good reason why the game was harder back then was because almost noone abused world buffs or consumables to the same degree players do today.
@@Tekshipie The only time I remember stacking world buffs was in BWL for Vael because we could be fairly certain of getting to him before 3/4ths of the raid has died and that was with a raid leader who really like playing the Min/Max game figuring things out with all the other spergs on Elitist Jerks. Any other progress fights it was just oh well most people will die before we hit that boss so it doesn't matter and for farm content it was grab 1 if someone says they have it.
Part of this is probably because as Horde the trip for the ZG buff would take you a decent amount of time in a major PVP zone because people weren't as good at using the tricks to get around like camping some alts to summon.
The two biggest limiting factors for us back in vanilla was the roster boss and just understanding the fights. You would lose a core member to burn out, real life or some in game drama and have to replace him with some poached guy from a guild that couldn't even kill Ragnaros. After getting through the "farm" status bosses, you would smash against your progression wall for a few hours without making any real progress because you didn't have the luxury of watching a world class raid group clear the content with google spreadsheets and youtube guides to tell everyone what exactly they were supposed to be doing. It's not a fair comparison to look at people who were experiencing this content with fresh eyes against people who have 15 years of experience to lean on.
@@desyncer plus those 15 years of experience have made us used to more complex and punishing mechanics, where you have to perform your (usually way more complex) rotation on top of watching out for 4-5 things all going on at the same time.
Compared to any modern wow boss classic ones are pretty much in the "tank and spank with some quirk" category.
Proper gearing is also a huge factor!
We did our first AQ40 today, we absolutely blasted every boss before twin emperors, our guild members were joking how easy the raid was.. then came the anubisath defenders before twin emperors and we had our 5 first wipes or so, Twin emperors were the first real challenge and we managed to kill them on 6th try. Ouro also took us around 6 pulls. It feels like we are doing over half more dps it was back when I raided AQ in Vanilla. the player damage is so insane you can just ignore mechanics on the first bosses. Naxxramas is going to fall very fast also, I don't think Pathwerk dps check will be any challenge.
Same here, after the princess we wiped a lot on the trashs, the gates opened yesterday on benediction, so we did for fun, no consumables or world buffs, no dkp, just to see how it was and we got to the princess, we will need a more coordinate team, in 1 month or so we gonna nailed aq for sure
I think in Naxxramas this issue will be even more explicit. We didn't yet have very many important time based boss mechanic which can be completely avoided by simply out-dps-ing it. Ragnaros's submerge is a good example but other than that I can't recall any. However in Naxx many bosses have such mechanics. Anub'rekan's Insect Swarm, Noth's teleport to his balcony, Heigan's full raid dance, and Gluth's Decimate I believe. I'm not sure in all of these but I remember that in Naxx this thing is relevant and you can simply outdps some boss mechanics which are supposed to be the most determinating part of that particular fight.
Yep those defenders are like mini bosses, underestimate them and you get taken down real fast.
Also skipping mechanics with full buffs is mad. We didnt get an add on our 2nd fankriss kill, had 2 enrage volley on huhuran i think. DPS is off the charts
@@WillEmmo honestly we lost world buffs due to random deaths pretty early and still wiped only once on twins and 3 times on viscidus. World buffs are not the issue, better players and better pcs and internet are the real deal.
Raiding was sooo much different back in the old days. Hardly any information available on the bosses. You just needed to figure them out by wiping ... a lot. World buffs were useless at the start of a new raid as you didn't had them long enough in general. While the game was more social back then, a bunch of people started theorycrafting and others developed certain addons that are still developed further today. Back then, there were no raid-frames, no boss mods, no utility-meter and no weak-auras and stuff available. They are just the result of some dedicated folks who put in the effort over time and gifted their work to the community. I still remember the first raids I did, there was just the party frame but there was no option to show the whole raid, let alone show any debuffs. We had to spread healers, dispellers and other key classes across the raids and therefore missed out on group synergies and what not. Weeks later, the first addons appeared like CT_Raid and stuff which made it possible to see all of the 40 players at once or decursive which allowed you to dispel any of the 40 members with a simple click instead of clicking through all 40 members to see who has a debuff. I.e. we had to assign druids and mages to their own groups just to click every member time and time again to check whether they had a curse on them which needed to get dispelled. Today, you already see all the debuffs in the build-in raid-frames or hammer a single button and call it done.
So, were people really that bad back then? I don't think so. The lack of proper tooling made our lives way harder. Our melee DDs were talking off-raid about their rotation and abilities and about the numbers they see. The lack of information given to the player was also drastically limited and therefore their knowledge about their class or specs. There was no damage-meters or the like available and they just figured out what is more beneficial to them or to their class in general based on interpreting the numbers they see and on using stop watches and mob HPs to determine which abilities make more sense and which doesn't.
On top of that, over time Blizzard patched the game a couple of times reducing mob health in older dungeons and adapting number on certain encounters. Also the change of certain class-tries, i.e. now all druids have innervate; it used to be the 31 resto talent; or mages now having an instant arcane explosion which neeeded 5 skill-points AFAIK before to get instant, lead to class balancing changes that overall lead to more raid-dps. In general I'd say that current encounters suffer like 15-30% health and/or damage compared to back then, which also plays into the feeling that classic content is way to easy.
Also, don't forget that today much more gear is available on different toons compared to the old days. Ragnaros was killed within the first week, BWL cleared within 40 minutes after the gates opened also C'Thun and the rest of AQ40 fell multiple times on the first day. This, as a consequence, leads to much more gear available to the raids and therefore even more DPS/HPS/TPS compared to 15 years ago, let alone that the so-called meta, which also existed back then, is quite different now.
Our guild leader went mental and told everyone to get 4 flasks, 20 GSPP and GNPP etc. all kinds of consumables or you are at the bottom of the loot priority.
Second reset we only used 4 GNPP and only tanks flasked. Lol.
Sounds like you need a new guild
My GM was demanding we start farming in March to have a flask for every AQ and every Naxx. I quit, I can do better things with my time-the game isn’t hard
@@PFworth True!
lol
@@PFworth hilarious lol
the gate isnt open yet on my server and i was a bit nervous but seeing this video made me confident we will just steamroll it like bwl
First 4 bosses where easy for my guild then we hit the NR Wall Thunderfury server Guild Big Booty Whordehouse.
Fairbanks pepehands
Insert [Classic wow is much more complex than retail] comment here. Yea man for sure, that 1 button mage rotation is truly complex.
If you have the NR and you're steamrolling BWL you should have very few issues
@@mybuttsmellslikebutterbut207 its a 15y old game what did you expect?
Don't forget that people are also running 1.12 class builds for all raids vs 1.x builds from when each patch originally came out. Some classes were vastly different in earlier patches, mostly for the worst.
Hopefully this will teach people in the future that its okay to run meme specs in classic servers. Everyone knows enough about the game that if you have a handful of people playing not so optimal specs, you'll still beat it. If anything you'll actually have a challenge, which is a hell a lot more fun.
Bring in the Boomkins and Prot Pallys!
Anybody who thought classic content was gonna be hard was lying to themselves.
They're in denial that the game was a lot easier back then because everyone was a bad player and the internet wasn't as vast as it is today. Granted, people have been doing classic wow on private servers for years formulating the best way to do things, but honestly there isn't a single mechanic in classic wow that compares to top-end in retail. Anyone who believes otherwise at this point is just delusional.
It's hilarious to me how many people on my classic server jack off to parses, when the rotations are 1-2 buttons and the highest parses are literally just stacking as many buffs as possible. I'm not denying there isn't some skill to some mechanics of classic, and it's hard to argue otherwise if you've seen venruki or ziqo duel each other. However, overall, classic is a bumbling mess of a game and I have never been more thankful to be playing a modern version of the game. There's definitely some shit on retail I dislike, but the good outweighs the bad by a large margin after playing classic.
@@jeffreyishmael5687 incredibly based
@@jeffreyishmael5687 yeah you cant take parses seriously in classic that's just dumb
@@jeffreyishmael5687 you clearly never played any other client than 1.12, back in 2004-2005 people had shit talents, gear and overall the classes werent nearly as polished as in 1.12. people dont realize we didnt have nearly as much of that fancy preraid gear that you have nowdays. just look up how brutal patch 1.1 actually was and u will understand. but yeah still internet and skill were big reasons but dont forget even back then we had good guilds who actually knew what they were doing, this idea that every1 back then was brain dead is so dumb and blows my mind how many ppl believe it, dont get me wrong there was alot of bad players then but not all of them
I think you guys are forgetting modern reliance on addons. I'd like to see how this data would look like without raiding addons which were not in use in Classic + TBC
I played in Classic and TBC, and raided MC + BWL but never progressed further. In TBC I reached 4 bosses into Black Temple. It weren't so much skill as today people have the entire strategy laid out for them, back then you learned by trial and error 🤷
Kinda makes you realize how much people were fucking around in raid nights back in vanilla
Almost like people were having fun with a video game or something.... Hmm...
" ITS TOO EASY!!! "
meanwhile they are fully world buffed.....
Part of classic. Oh yeah raids easier then lfr.
@Brian they definitely are easier than LFR, LFR N'zoth is harder than anything in classic
@@JaeyXVI for the same reason vanilla was hard you have brain dead konkeys not equipping their legendary and getting MC'd right as the fight starts other then that lfr nzoth is a joke as is all of bfa raiding
@@alantufano5659 i agree that lfr is easy but all of bfa raiding? Thats just false, mythic is very hard
@@JaeyXVI I agree mythic is hard but the other 3 are a cake walk
AQ 40 just open this weekend. And It was insane. On my first toon (mage) the road block was the trash that leads to twins and the twins themselves. The second toon ( paladin) well it was a mess we did not have enough melee meat shields with NR and Huhuran was a pain. Communication and understanding of the twin trash is important.
Sartura has probably more kills than Skeram because people forgot start logging and turned logs on after the first boss was down.
1. People are min-maxing like crazy.
2. The fights are well known
3. Everyone has better hardware and better internet
4. No slackers. Everyone are extremely engaged.
The only difficulty I've found in classic has just been preparation and not being lazy. Onyxia is the perfect case and point after getting attuned the hard part is over, takes longer to get to ony for my guild then it does to actually kill her.
Yes a lot of difficulty is in Lvling, preparing consumables, buffs, and getting attunement. I PUG with casuals and it is a fun rewarding challenge, im sick of people taking the best gamers in classic and saying "hurr durr that looks easy" you can do that with literally any game, especially a 40 man co-op RPG that's 15 years old.
I really like how you take a raw data approach. Great video Willie.
becus people forget to start logging, this happens to me all the time xD
Confirmation bias. Yeah, we are awesome gamers! It's not at all because the pros figured the min/max and everything else out for you. :)
did our 2nd full AQ40 clear last night, all 9 bosses 1 shot and no issues with trash. not bad for our 2nd week doing it. the true boss of this instance is definitely viscidus, the amount of consumes and coordination to down this cleanly is a nice change.
Stacking world buffs and full consumes is literally like slapping T2.75 gear onto whatever gear you have - I do not know why anyone is surprised that none of this content is challenging when they spend a few hours following research that others put into the game over years of time.
Classic has this weird culture of players that are afraid to lose. It's a huge meme. Gold farmers have a field day with it though, an army of dad gamers trying to model themselves around Top 50 world guilds. Consuming their brains out, over preparing based on clickbait CZcams titles and Twitch streamers who hype it up for views - all in the name of ignoring mechanics completely in a raid so they can push their 3 buttons with impunity.
You should look into the RMT culture of Classic and how microtransactions in video games over the years have changed player attitudes around things like buying gold to achieve their goals in video games. If you think those guys who login to the game 4 - 5 hours a week to gear up in raids can really keep up with the gold requirements for that kind of play, you crazy.
I'd argue it's like like a tier above and then some. As a warrior, having head buff means I basically have endless rage. Give me heart, songflowr, and dmt, now I not only have endless rage but I do 30%+ more damage than normal. It's honestly ridiculous.
Tbh the top guilds are dad gamers age wise too, just dont have the responsibilities that come with it.
But yeah when you see people sitting in a boost from levels 20-60 then turn around and say token would ruin the game, does bring up some ? for me
I find the time to farm my own gold. But I also created a second account to level a mage on specifically for that purpose. AS to the world buffs - My guild is exceptionally well organized and we generally have a summon train to each different world buff. The biggest hurdle we found was definitely Visc, but after we realized that potions of poison resistance were a thing - it was just a matter of everyone spending an hour or so in the wetlands cave farming venom sacs. AQ is not overly difficult if you come prepared.
@@WillEmmo yah was more speaking towards the idea that unless you're actually a top competitive guild there's no reason to consume and world buff as heavily as people do, especially if the argument is that you want the Vanilla experience where this stuff was considered extremely difficult.
WoW Token in Classic would solve so many issues economy wise, since as you put it, the majority of Classic players are adults with an income.
Dat dps tho Wille!! 2:27
C’thun was easy but one boss has been wiping us relentlessly. And that boss is vicidus...
I know many non-hardcore raiding guilds are not as active anymore. May only raid once a week or less. I think that also plays into the progression.
Honestly, I think they should’ve had pre-nerf c’thun, and proven once and for all that it was/wasn’t mathematically impossible.
I would bet 10000000g it would still be possible there are allready guild who one phased Cthun.
Maybe it was indeed mathematically impossible.
Maybe the numbers indeed didn't add up.
How can u know?
Blizzard said that it was indeed mathematically impossible.
And that was the old good blizzard.. they lied or what?
Anyway with today's standards people will find a way to clear pretty much anything u throw at them.
Gamers weren't that good back then, they weren't rich with x100000 consumables and world buffs and at least half the raid had a garbage PC with plenty of DCS.
akhs denlew it was „mathematically impossible“ if you take the realistic raidsetup and dps values from classic back in the days, yes.
That doesn’t mean however that a completely minmaxed raidsetup with today’s players would do the same dps from back then. Someone did the math again and it would still be very hard, but it would be possible to kill pre nerf Cthun
Full world buffs, zapper charges, 20+ Fury warr's and a good blend of mages, locks and rogues.
The game has always been easy in the grand scheme. What made classichatd, and early BC tiers as well, was just general disorganization. You had people that had zero business doing stuff dragging down groups. Everyone knows what to do and there is no learning curve.
Very true you had guys with Horrible specs wrong type of gear trying to raid
k1llzOn381 I literally did UBRS with a melee mage. I gotta dig that screen shot up.
you are playing classic not vanilla so....classic is fully nerfed version of vanilla with itemization in it = every stat on item has been changed to make it stronger...so i guess you never experiencded genuine vanilla ...thats ok..most didnt but comment a lot how it was easy..lol...cute talk but far from facts...as far as we can see..and proved by numerous videos..player skill is much worst now then during vanilla...pvp is so bad that 99 % have NO idea what their classes can do or should do..check videos of old players showing how bad skill average has gone down in 15 years...facts bro facts..only facts pls
@@jankopandza1072 yes definetely i tried to tell them but they cant understand. They think before 15 years EVERYONE MUST BE IDIOT AND NOOB. No just no man. even the hardcores at that days exist and i heard from 1st persons mount" vanilla was hard as fuck " . Its not real aq40 patch or it was not mc40 patch before in classic. GUILDS WERE DISBANDING AT RAGNAROS. can u believe that ? some of lfr fights even harder then ragnaros classic. How a guild can unsuccess at ragranos dude ? in vanilla they were killing it with 2 submerge. Todays classic ragnaros killed without fire resist and without some level 60's. In vanilla it was imposible.
last week i killed princes huhu with zero nature resistance gear ( only greater nature resistance potion ) . and zero world buffs. In vanilla u just die if u dont have nature resist gear. And people still saying we are smarter, better tech, youtube videos, bis lists. **__** . people just copy what they read at internet. there' no real life experience.
u know what is going on happen at naxx dude? all fucking guilds gonna clear at WEEK 1. and they start to say yeah 15 years old game. They will even say this LEGENDARY VANILLA NAXX
@@jankopandza1072 Nah its not nerfed. You and your guild and other guilds just sucked balls back then. Or you never played vanilla either and are going by what it "Felt" like on a private server without the proper item values/boss stats. You find LBRS hard? My guild disbanded on a LBRS run...guess that means it was insanley hard content right? Nope it means my guild was dogshit.
Guild just cleared AQ40 last night, it was a lot of fun compared to previous raids. We wiped on Twin Emps 3 times, Ouro 1, C'Thun 1, and Viscidus 2. Some trash definitely felt harder than the actual boss. Yeah it was probably much easier than what it was back in the day but when all the knowledge is out there, that's to be expected.
Vanilla raiding was always going to be a joke. Retail has made people too good compared to vanilla. Why on earth do people suggest that AQ40 or Naxx is going to be any different? A heroic raid guild leader would have no problem organizing a fight like the twin emps. It's so simple compared to modern wow's mechanics.
Retail hasnt made people good lol. Its the fact that the content has been played by the majority for 10+ years on pservers. Naxx is the one thatll be hard as only 1% of the wow pop even made it into naxx and most pservs have bugged classes or content so those who did naxx in those servers will have a diif experience
I don't get why retail players feel the need to circle jerk in the comments of videos about classic. Obviously the raids are easier. The hard part is the much bigger time commitment. You have to grind your ass off if you want to stay on top of consumes and reputation rewards. And gearing is a lot harder than in retail where you just do a few mythic+'s
My top 500 french guildon retail became the top 5 french guild on classic.
From wiping on mother heroic to rolling on the raids on vanilla. Retail is so time consuming that people wanted to go to vanilla to stop the non stop farming what are you on about?
Classic uses the 1.12 patch - ie All content is presented in the post-nerf state. Alas no pre-nerf C'thun. Nor @Joshua will there be any pre-nerf Naxx, it will also be full cleared day 1.
@@leviathan1788 can guarantee you it wont be full cleared day 1, it wont even be entered day 1, itll also be released tuned pre nerfed
Most challenging part for classic is RLing and study tactics - 40 ppl are alot harder to manage than 25 ppl, itemization is also slower, required more consumables, etc.
I hope that maybe Naxx will be somewhat difficult.
Like everything in Classic the difficulty will come from the prep, not from the actual raid. If you have your world buffs and consumes you will probably roll Naxx
Naxx was imo easier than AQ in Vanilla. We never killed Ouro or Viscidus but we pretty much zerged everything up to 4HM. Now imagine what will happen with better knowledge, addons, gear, connections and pcs...
Nevertheless it will still be the best raid in Classic, just don't get your hopes up on the difficulty part.
Yeah, I can agree that the prep is more valuable than actual skill to defeat the bosses, but I'm pretty sure Naxx can't be zerged, it will at least give some people a reason to play rotations properly and dodge shit.
@@Linoo12 Naxx will be very easily zerged thanks to the huge amount of damage players do right now compared to 2006. A perfect example is Fankriss in Classic. In vanilla this boss had actual mechanics, but in classic my average guild managed to kill him around the time when first snakes spawn. For comparison's sake I looked up few fankriss kill videos from vanilla and they get first snakes around 70-80%. This is the guild example Naxx is tuned for.
@@esaesaeesaesa whats kind of weird to me is how the dps is this much higher, considering the rotations havent changed anything since original vanilla, as a mage you still spam fireball/frostbolt for 5 minutes straight for example, so im baffled as to why the reported dps numbers are so much higher now than they were in vanilla
I love your videos. Keep it up!
Having played actual end of vanilla content I can say this;blizzard really borked some of the scaling on bosses and abilities. From what I have seen there are folks pulling mid BC damage output in far inferior gear.
Heroic Strike bug is causing warriors to deal insane damage that wasnt possible in old vanilla, some casters have bugged talents that allow them to heal or dps way more than they should have (Spiritual Guidance talent for priests is the most infamous one in Classic right now)
@ oh so they half assed testing like BFA and D3, color me shocked.
no, people just don't have 50000ms latency or 2fps anymore, so they can spam their one damage button faster now
@ Where is the proof that Heroic Strike bug didn't work like that in Vanilla?
Turns out stacking world buffs, consumables, dps warriors and fury tanks means everybody does more damage.
remeber back in the days 2005-2006 something, it tooks month before it was cleared,
Private servers were tuned differently than classic. It's like they had accounted for people having worldbuffs etc mobs had way more hp and did more damage - it became apparent to me in BWL already.. I was a protwarrior with shield and i got 1-shot, no crit 10k dmg by Fangkriss adds. The big beetle trash in AQ40 did massive damage like 5-6k enrage hits. Ouro was super hard hit like a truck, had so much hp, 1-2 died on every burrow. Ossirian in AQ20 had like 15% chance crushing blow you with shield on for like 6-7k.
I keep seeing all these people who say they expected these classic raids to be hard. They were back in vanilla because they were brand new, fresh, never-seen-before content. Nobody had a clue what to expect. Now, people enter them 15 years later, many have already done them back in the day or have seen one of the hundreds of videos showing how to beat, low-man or cheese these raids.
Classic was hard 15 years ago because we had no real info going around for all players to see. It’s harder to AOTC now then it is to clear a classic Raid, which most players can do just cuz of CZcams
Not only that, players now go in with all the buffs and consumable the game has to offer. It almost double the dps. The hard part is the grind.
Raid finder is harder than classic 😂
Funny how all the people who yelled classic is harder then retail before it was released all say this now.
Roy Hoveling agreed! I think it was just because we were all bad back then and had toaster and were poor lol
@@ThaKnopMe vanilla was harder than retail but classic isn't
So how does that compare to retail when a new raid comes out? I guess we need to compare AQ40 with mythic raiding? Or HC?
you compare classic pve to LFR, both are equally easy, you could never compare mythic retail raids to classic raiding, mythic retail is just from another realm in the compartment of complexity, difficulty and really everything else, mythic ra-den alone has more mechanics than all of classic combined
@@coomercommander2554 alright thanks! I actually have no idea, was just curious
@@immersionHEHE glad to help
"35% of guilds not having completed BWL by the end of the second reset" is a criteria for "not quite as faceroll as it wa made out to be?
We're talking about 65% of the guilds taking less than 2 reset to fully clear the dungeon.
We did a full clear in two sessions, one 4 hour up to Ouro, and then Ouro&Cthun bringing us to server 9th, horse 3rd (RIP Mirage Raceway). We could have been faster but don't really give a shit about rankings as a guild.
We went fully prepared with 150nr available on everyone and 315 NR on all melee for soaking. It felt a bit more challenging than BWL despite the prep. It did however already break a couple guilds on my server.
We've been preparing for KT since day one of raiding and I expect us to have the least issues compared to our contemporaries, but that doesn't mean it's going to be easy.
7P: Proper preparation and planning prevents piss poor performance.
The biggest problem back in the day was burnout. Not bosses. Not gearing nor farming buffs. Burnout. One of my guilds straight up quit on AQ40 because we were losing people constantly. It was too long. Too few people showed up. Everyone came out for MC, BWL, ZG, AQ20 because you could get gear for that. Plus, the itemization for many classes was just not good. Druids finally have your "you can do ANYTHING" set. Oh wait, you can do anything terribly. Yay?
The other guild ran through but got stuck on Twins because of burnout. We still had people who wanted to get Bindings. Or that last piece of T2. Or their weapon from BWL. Or some of the off gear from ZG and AQ20 that was better itemized than other stuff.
Lastly, who knew what you were going to get in the raid. Not people, but mechanics, bosses, or random internet issues. Hey, you were doing GREAT! Then your best Shammy DCs and no heals or totems for you. Someone didn't update their addons, so oops, they pulled aggro. Even the very good guild that cleared everything except AQ40, just didn't find it rewarding. We killed C'Thun? Yeah, F this place. Let's go pvp until Naxx. Rofltstomp Alliance is just fun, especially when we roll deep in AV.
Yes, if you take all the knowledge away, put the internet back to 2006, have people who have NO IDEA about how mechanics work, addons being just not even close to current addons, people still not knowing what a good spec actually was because the math was still kind of unknown for some parts (hunters have NEGATIVE crit? WTF?!) then yes, AQ40 was hard.
The worst part was, if you knew how the game worked and how it ran, then no, it just wasn't work the headache. Especially the trash. GOOD GOD THE TRASH! Pacing mechanics this nutter butters. A guild found a hack to bypass the trash. Most of us raiders actually cheered them on, because F that noise!
Was it hard compared to modern wow, or even when I quit raiding WHATLICK WoW? Nah. For the time, yes. Get rid of the trash and keep a stable raider roster, not that hard. Plus, more mechanically difficult raids were more fun IMO. Of course, it led to the whole issue of "gimmick bosses" which drove me insane. I prefer absolute chaos bosses. Of course, a nice easy Patchwerk was a nice breather. Just GOOOoooooOOOO!
The biggest difference to BWL is the time investment. 2 of 3 Raids I am doing didn't manage to down the bosses due to only having a single raid day and a non full progress attitude. This problem will become even bigger with naxx. For a casual Raid 4 hours of weekly raid time in progress makes it pretty hard.
classic hard
I got made fun of in here for saying it wasn't gonna be a guild crushing difficult raid. Class is comical in so many areas. Truly glad I stopped raid logging months back and unsubbed. Craziest thing is people slaved away just to unlock this joke of a raid. Its depressing.
yuh ur a bundle of joy
@@max-un7rt he does have a very valid point. Classic is a fucking joke. Glad I quit too, so I'm not disappointed.
have loved my time with classic, first time ever playing wow before legion (i was a guild wars kid back in the day) and im eagerly awaiting BC now but honestly raiding bored me to death lol I did MC and Zul Garub and honestly felt like it took 10x longer than it did because of how dull of an experience it was, i love the dynamic of 5 player dungeons in classic , levelling and dungeons and doing some battlegrounds was what kept me having fun but classic raiding just wasn't for me
gates still closed on my realm
lmfao, everything was complete day 1 on my server. Sulfuras
In my guild we blasted through MC and BWL on opening day without any issues, think we wiped once on Firemaw in BWL, thats about it. We have 45ish minutes clear on BWL and we're not even sweating it.
Most of our raiders parse between 80 and 99. We do not consider ourselves hardcore by any means. Worldbuffs and consumables are completely optional in our guild, although most people bring them.
We entered AQ on Sunday on first opening week (Gehennas EU). We got stomped so bad by trash and bosses inside AQ. For once we actually had a challenge ahead of us. On first night we skipped Huhuran after 3 wipes (most melee lacked appropriate NR gear). Only to wipe 5 times on the trash between Huhuran and Twins. We wiped 4 times on Twins before we called it a night, since we had been raiding for 4 hours already.
Next week on Wednesday we went in and cleared up until after Twins. Second time was easier of course since we now had some experience with the trash and bosses. Yesterday on Sunday we spent all day on C'tun and finally got him down after 3.5 hours of progression. We tried Ouro and wiped a couple times sub 10%. We still have Ouro and Viscidus left to kill.
AQ might be "easy" but believe me for your "slightly above average guild" AQ is still challenging and isn't exactly a walk in the park.
"Zee" G?
*Spits Earl Grey in surprise / disgust and peers over the top of his fine china at WillE*.
Sir, this is the living end.
D:
UK player here.
never once heard anyone call it "Zed Gee"
You must keep the company of ruffians, then.
Yeah, Aussie here, zed g just sounds weird to me.
Zed is the Letter , Zee is the sound, as a Canadian with British parents this is my life
It's been interesting to see Wille go from fan boy to hater this past year.
he's not a hater, he's being truthful, his rose tinted glasses wore to nothing and now he sees how ridicilously easy semi afk shit simulator classic truly is
most people who said classic is hard are popular streamer/youtuber hacks that aren't even playing the game anymore, go figure.
It's been a fun challenge!
My guild is struggling with AQ due to the fact, we never had more than 34 people + some of them leaving mid raid due to work. We managed to kill everything up to Huhuran incl. (Viscidus excl.) and then got a humiliated by Anubisath Sentinels. It frustrates me to see other guilds facerolling through AQ as if it was lvl 30 dungeon, everyone saying it's easy etc. And I believe it is easy though, but the lack of people makes it really difficult for us. Many would advise me to change guild, but this guild is mostly the reason why I'm still playing - great and funny people + I've also built a decent reputation here and my opinion matters. If anyone can test it in a raid setup with 8 people short, lack of melee soakers on Huhuran and actually manage to kill C'thun, please drop a comment here and I'll use my whip on other guildies to push those slackers
With phase 5 release our guild has been an exclusively non-world buff guild. This is probably the best decision we've ever made, we killed twin emperor's tonight and it felt amazing. Everyone plays the game more as we don't have to save world buffs in advance anymore and the content is less faceroll, it took us many attempts to get twins down
So when I made this I thought more servers had the gates open than it turns out did. I found a gate tracker the other day - ironforge.pro/aqtracker/
Anyways, let me know how AQ40 went for you all, just did my 2nd clear, was solid - tanked emps, and was a 1 shot ofc.
WillE
ur delusional my dude there is no diff between classic raids they are all share one thing press one button to kill the boss,the fact that people are bringing top guilds as way to defend the raid diff is just a joke cuz almost 90% of the guilds did it with the first week
@@goo6e_q854 Literally no1 asked. Attention Seeker.
Interesting video WillE; couple things. Since several of the bosses are optional, don't you think the lack of logs for those bosses could be explained by people skipping them rather than being unable to beat them? I don't know how wow logs classic work exactly, e.g. the number of times a guild wipes on each boss isn't clear unless you look at their parse/log history.
A second thing; I think the 8/9 disparity (i.e. are only 3-4 guilds pushing C'Thun?) you mentioned might be an issue with the wow log classics. You can go to the second page of the 9/9 clears and see there are many guilds that actually only have 8/9 or 7/9 clears logged but they are counted as 9/9 because, presumably, they beat C'Thun. imgur.com/aJRNjFH
@Jacob Kimble Hmmm. Fair enough, idk how it updates, thought id link incase anyones interested
@@brianadam6718 That does make more sense, it was a bit confusing for me to read into how the info was actually being conveyed from logs. I didnt consider skips tbh, though I think thats gonna be quite a small portion of guilds aiming for server first kills perhaps.
0 NR Huhuran is trivial for any decent guild.
Viscidus is also not actually hard at all, it just requires your raid to have frost weapons and poison resistance pots. Once people figure out there's hyperfarms for large venom sacs Viscidus will become a normal kill for everyone that puts in a bit of effort.
why do people say it was easier than expected? thought it was common knowledge that private servers tuned the numbers up to make it more difficult, not sure what pserver it was that people flamed for being too easy when in fact it was probably the closest to classic. basing health armor etc. on the original values was dumb because all spells, talents and gear are based on the 1.12 client. but it is what it is, sad that we didnt get to see prenerf cthun.
waiting the 5 days to open, but i agree with many ppl saying we should had the pre fix C´thun , maybe that will be a challenge, bc now everybody knows the mechanics , ppl had played in private servers, so is waaaay easier than figuring out what to do
The "classic is actually difficult" crowd keeps moving the goalposts back the longer things go on. Now, if people enjoy content, that is fine. No disrespect to what people want. The problem is that many of the "pro classic" people vehemently hate retail and don't show that same level of respect to people who enjoy retail. Retail players were said to be "baby mode" "ez mode" "carebear," among other garbage. It was said to have "no skill required." Yet classic is demonstrably low skill. They just make excuses for it instead of owning it. That is the problem.
They looked down on retail players while doing content that is dramatically easier.
Classic elitists were always losers on live servers. No real experience as serious raiders. Classic offered them a new niche to derive authority through
Only thing that made classic hard was what we had available. Ball mouse, Tube tv monitors, specs that couldn’t run an iPhone, and 250ms that made you run still every hour.
Raiding on live is way more challenging and exciting. however I have a blast raiding in classic, they are very different
I raided mythic on Retail and it's a much better raiding experience than Classic. Raids are harder, rotations are more complex, and mechanics are more plentiful.
But the thing that is MUCH better in Retail is that post-wipe recovery takes absolutely no time. You wipe, you just spawn back at the start of the boss area, and it takes like 2 mins to setup again and engage.
You can have 10 wipes on a progress boss and not feel that frustrated because you're just constantly playing the game. In Classic, even one wipe can sour the mood A LOT because it's like taking an involuntary 10 mins break.
No ones pretending its hard, we just dont pretend spending 30 hours a week min maxing and using guides as our own accomplishments and then call it easy as we have someone tell us exactly what spec to play with exactly what gear and exactly who to invite and exactly how to do the hokey pokey while in the raid. You guys folllow 10 guides on every aspect of the game follow the setupd made by and figured out by other people, and then call it easy. Its not easy, someone just told you exactly what to do step by step
Can't wait for the same video on Naxx! :P
Every raid in Classic is going to be easy when the raid is fully world buffed. I find the Classic meta around world buffs to be very frustrating and I look forward to Classic TBC. Its actually insane that raids get fully world buffed and then claim the game is to easy, its like they expect Blizzard to tune the fights around everyone having world buffs. Imagine if a raid wipe meant that everyone in the raid would need to go re-farm world buffs.
The problem is more that the buffs are too strong than that the content is too weak. I will point out though that even without world buffs many groups are having few or no issues with the content.
you can't blame it on world buffs when even without the content is faceroll.
"Imagine if a raid wipe meant that everyone in the raid would need to go re-farm world buffs." Do you know any actual classic guild that goes and take world buffs again if they wipe? Because the usual reaction is "oh well, guess we'll take half an hour longer to clear now".
TBC is going to be a joke too
@@lottoo5693 not to the extent of fury/prot tanks, because I can't see a fury/prot warrior tanking hard hitting bosses in TBC, but even if they release patches progressively I agree it'll be a joke.
the twins seems to be the stopping block for most good guilds atm
To summarize, Classic Wow is tedious, not difficult.
u said it
That is Retail too, except for mythic raiding.If you are trying to play a difficult game then you need to find a totally different game.
@@joshuaroe1402 you say that yet, retail has arenas where skill cap is shown, has top 100 mythic raiding which shows skill cap, and has mythic plus which shows skill cap. I hate retail, but one thing it does not lack is end game skill cap.
@Todd Lerfahndler *relative
35% Naxx clear is REALLY high week one. That raid is SIGNIFICANTLY longer in duration that will naturally bring the % cleared much lower. I think it'll be 15-20% since even the most prepared raids with 2 nights/ week not clearing.
"How bout dat difficulty?" is people outting themselves as not having raided back then. The only thing considered tough in AQ40 back then was the trash after Emps and then C'thun before it was nerfed, because that did happen. Guild breaker back then is fine, you just join a different guild. Today if your Mythic guild is broken, good luck finding another one as easily.
You'd think the entire wow playerbase did naxx40 when it was current by the way people speak of vanilla raids lol.
I raided back then, I knew it was going to be easy and I don't care, doesn't need to be hard to be fun, people that actually raided back then and don't have brain damage all knew it was going to be easy these days.
The only difficult part of classic is having the determination to run the same boring raids every week, farm mats and get every world buff over and over.
The next time that they release classic they should scrap world buffs
Agreed
Or reduce raid size to 10 and 20 if for some reason retards really want Wbuffs
Or you can simple, let's say ... don't use them if you don't want to ?
I love people complaining about world buffs but using them :D
@@hentaimage95 Or change guild.
@@22Epic I stopped playing since the game was shit.
easy AF, without content, and blizzard butchered it with every patch. (Removing builds and interactions, vanilla spirit much?)
When I played I never used them, I like to have to look at my screen while playing.
my guild cleared last tuesday felt awesome!
Yes classic isn't hard it's tedious I thought everyone found this out like a week after launch.
Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. It makes people mash their face against a grindstone happily.
First time in my entire life going into AQ, prepped and stayed up for 27 hours to make sure everything was set, only to blow past everything besides Anubisath giants which had some strategies to it (which can be figured out in 2 minutes with 2 groups of people) wiped on twin emperors after everyone was tired from gate opening, came back today, killed emps, got cthun to 40% first try. Dps kept dying and we didn’t have any buffs. The point is, I spent a crazy long time thinking something was going to be damn near impossible do to hearing all the stories and boom lmao it was easier for me than BwL and this is my first year ever playing classic.
Consumables honestly ruin this game along with world buffs...
BOYCOTT WORLD BUFFS
Oh ye the constant bitching about worldbuffs, the worldbuffs timer addon that constantly gets spammed in the guild chat. I wish they would remove it. You dont need it for anything and it might make the content a tiny bit more challenging.
Roy Visser they always trying to gimp classic. Meanwhile assholes can’t kill mythic nzoth. Funny no?
@@SuacoRV Why should they remove the world buffs ? You know you can go raid without them if you don't want them ?
I love when people are complaining about world buffs and still use them :D
It's like the ICC buff in WoTLK, people where complaining when the buff was optionnal.
You want even more challenges ? Try cleaning the raids in full blue gear. The game is what you want it to be. Still you are going raiding with full buffs and consumable, maybe what's you're looking for is an easy game ?
classic ruins wow's reputation as an competitive progression game by having its raids without any mechanics or challenge
@@22Epic I dont use worldbuffs. I really cba to spend so much time getting them just to clear a raid 10min faster.
We got to the Twin Epms in week one (skipping Viscidus), but couldn´t try them as its holiday season and several core raid members are on vacation, therefore only had 1 Warlock in the raid. ^.^
Didn´t expect to go this far on the first AQ40 raid anyway so not exactly unhappy about the performance.
The internet ruined WoW
Ho man the irony is great.
@@felixdumbravescu2725 In agreement or opposition?
@@Buttsmoker Agreement, i just find it super funny since ya know WoW was and still is an MMO.
the nature of humans ruined WoW.
Greed ruined it.
even in a fucking game everything is about money now, basically all i see is cunts sellling boosts, tanks renting themselves out.
People transferring with some shitty books just to make some virtual coins.
People forgot how to have fun.
Internet / datamining / ptr / people making guides for everything ruined the mmo genre. All of em.
F to all the "i played classic, it was so much harder" boomers
@Mercb3ast the only time classic was hard was before tbc when everyone was new and super shit at the game, internet stability was unherd of and pcs ran like shit, i can tell you even if vanilla was just released instead of 2005, like for modern pcs, i can quarantee you some guild would have nuked all of its content within a month a few times over if it all was unlocked all the way to naxx from the get-go
Play on a Windows 2000 over 50 megabit and come back
@@Troopertroll just dont be poor back in the early 2000's
It was harder back then when it was current content, thats why bosses lived for so long, everyone is used to much more mechanically hard fights now and hardware side theres no lag, no fps drop, no mom needing to use the phone so you dc on dial up, etc
@@nyktal no they were just shit
So many people were advocating for classic cause private servers. Say what you want if they may or mayn't be harder speaking about lights hope/nost that claimed it didn't scale its content. But lightshope felt right. the issue is no one knows exactly the health/damage of bosses back then but blizzard claims it has a reference client which has failed multiple time with in game mechanics being absent or bugged or abilities not working right. Take a stroll down old content videos and you can see bosses health being much different from bosses in classic. My theory is they tuned it down for so many people.
czcams.com/video/K-A9l8bL_Fw/video.html here is a link to old skeram that had over a million health
This is the nerfed version of AQ and Vanilla through and through, nobody wants to admit it though. Vanilla was rock fking hard not to mention it was all new content back then, so EVERYONE had to learn when it was released, no years of testing and private servers.
@@cattysplat yes i tried to tell them but its imposible. Everybody thinkin " yes after 16 years old mechanics and technology its is but in the and its same" Just no dude :D there's no complicated mechanic in vanilla that u can master it after 16 years later. It was hard because all mobs was harder to kill.
@@cattysplat LMAO people like you are clowns. You're lying to yourself and you know it, or maybe youre just completely delusional hahahaha
there is some difficulty in Classic WoW ? with all the released nerfs and itemization = all stats on itmes are changed so stats during vanilla and Classis are WAY different..im really feed up with players writing hard core or similar in classic...there is no hard core in classic or progress..every pug in game can finish any raid because of all the nerfs and itemization so...difficulty and Classic ? hardly..
Having to spend a lot of time on something creates the illusion of difficulty.
Classic is a grinding simulator where you know EXACTLY what you're doing and getting from it before even beginning. For gods sake the best Mage rotation is LITERALLY 1 spell cast non-stop. You don't need the rest. Just frostbolt.
Classic is not hard.
Twin emps was our only road block but we were going in with 35 and took them down in 13 trys
imagine thinking classic was ever going to be hard lol
People have had almost 15 years now to practice and create strategies. Even if a lot of that time was on private servers with altered stats, mechanics, whatever. I would almost be more surprised if both AQ and Naxx AREN'T cleared day 1.
its funny how people say classic is harder when it takes 2 weeks for 2k guilds to clear a tier compared to an entire patch for 2k guilds to clear a tier
An 8th grade maths test is way easier when you're in 10th grade. Some friends and I have 10+ years vanilla experience (private servers + retail) and could probably do ct blindfolded. I could name you every BiS piece up to any boss/content with the exact stats and viable substitutes (for my 3-4 most played classes anyway). Do you think a raid full of people like us does have any issues with aq40? I can guarantee you (because it happened a lot lol) that new folks aren't gonna blast through this kind of content.
This is why we parse. Parsing is the real endgame Lol
So much of retail "prog" is gear progression, so it's not a fair comparison.
Vanilla was harder. Classic is not. There’s a difference.
@@WhoFlungDung what's the point of parsing when its fully rng, you can pretty much do your best parse by spamming one button wishing for crits
As long as you have a couple of warrior putting a shield on and click the taunt button... only the champion can be taunt... the other are immune to taunt....
Classics difficulty is gimped because of 1.12 balancing and people abusing game mechanics, hardly surprising
Ouro was the real true boss of AQ40... Back in the day, RET got first NA kill on C'thun and then went on to get world first Ouro kill.
classic is a joke and tedious not diffucult, if you say otherwhise your delusional
true af never seen a classic raid took people more than 1week
Makes it even more funny how it’s still better than retail or anything blizzard has published for almost the last decade
BFA BABY LOL
@@holla1992 how is he a baby when even LFR is harder than anything in classic lol, you classic andies are just delusional as fuck. If you enjoy the game thats cool but dont act like its even remotely difficult
@@JaeyXVI Retail is for babies who enjoy collecting mounts, transmogs, candy crush dailies and obliterating mobs in the world with no real danger whilst being referred to as 'CHAMPION' every 10 seconds.
Gates opened at 12am last night, first AQ40 for us tonight. We think we'll full clear tonight.
Sorry nerds, noone is impressed that you have a guide and BiS gear, and know how to minmax everything you do.
Seriously, I dont get it, its like studying all wekk for a test you know the answers too, still copying someone elses test answers and then bragging about how smart you are
@@mdamon06 I remember raiding Karazhan (first ever raid I did) Blood elf paladin, i spent weeks hardcoring the game to get the keys to unlock heroic dungeons, i got some gear and I was absolutely awful at the game, i showed up to raid and not one of us had a clue how to do the boss encounters, we got rolled by every boss, and when we finally got a kill we were absolutely estatic. We used to try figure out how to do the bosses without guides, and classic with all this knowledge people have is just not how warcraft was meant to be played.
What I don't understand is why blizzard didn't detect the wand and eye beam bugs in aq40 during their own testing. The eye beam bug was instantly noticeable by everyone who pulled C'Thun.
Great video dude.
Also one thing that has stood the test of time: boss damage. Twin Emperors hit so damn hard we had to flask our tanks and warlocks who have the absolutely best gear available on them. Many of these encounters would be very difficult if player damage was not so high to trivialize whole encounter mechanics. Bosses and monsters die way too fast to be any challenge.
I Think the results might be scewed for AQ40. The servers that have the Gates open at day 1 are those generally populated by tryhard guilds. Those servers that havent opened the Gates yet probably wont have it as easy clearing it all
for the guild im in Our Legacy we were only really time limited first week and twin emp is definitly harder than cthun 3rd attempt on cthun and 9 wipes before our first twin emp kill, we are lacking NR gear on our raid for visidious as we are not an engineer heavy guild i dont really think its harder than BWL its more of a learning curve on the mechanics second we we 2 attempted twin emp while down a warlock also ouro was an interesting fight for a caster heavy guild as those threat wipes didnt hit the casters all that often so we had to rotate our casters in for sand blast to manage threat
feelsbadman our guild wasnt part of the statistic of clearing BWL first week :( it was a nightmare getting 40 people online in time and through the queues and THEN we had a huge mass raid disband across the whole server! during Chromagus THE WHOLE server threw everyone out of their raid groups and we couldnt reform, so we all got mass tp'd to kargath!! but AQ was a whole lot easier than expected, I kinda like it just a big long winded (also last person to get the mount)
So ... what level would you have to be to solo any of those raids? And what class?
There are probably more logged kills for some later bosses because part way into the run, they realized they forgot to start logging.
Visc we 1 shot cuz of sappers xD. It's definitely harder than BWL, but as I expected a decent guild wouldn't have trouble clearing it 1st week. I am expecting Naxx however to be a little bit different, there are a few bosses in there that will be actual challenge....
NO raid in classic is "Hard".
The biggest reason it was considered hard back in the day was the lack of available and easy to access information.
Today u can get exactly to the 1 hitpoin of accurate information on a given encounter for whatever raids u are doing.
And not only that, back in vanilla the computers and the servers of blizzard could barely handle the game not to mention the extremely powerful addons that exists today.
Any person with somewhat of a brain realizes that classic wont be even remotely as hard as even the easiest raid in retail.
The real challenge comes from managing bad players and the extremely tedious pre-grind chores , that's about it.
Another thing to consider that may make the data less accurate is the fact that AQ40 is really bloody long. The trash is super time consuming and most of the guilds out there wont be doing elaborate trash skips. This is most likely the biggest gatekeeper, especially for guilds that raid one night a week or so.