Csquared yeah it’s super fun not being able to play specific specs and use abilities. I, like you, prefer playing with using less than half my abilities.
@@imoffendedthatyouareoffended Calm down m8, he was just stating he likes it. He never said it should stick around or that it's good for the game. You can like something, or the idea of something, and understand it's also bad for the game. I too like the idea of the raid needing to work together and pick which debuffs to use. Adds a new depth to raiding that the whole team needs to overcome. I also acknowledge that classes are being punished by it, making some entirely useless, so I believe it should go. I love the idea of the teamwork it can foster, but I agree it needs to go. But we don't know if he's for or against it, so there's no need to passive-aggressively insult him.
I wish blizz would matchmake premades into fighting other premades, and completely separate players doing BG's alone. That way you can either be top-tier competitive or do some casual pvp as a change of pace.
There is no such thing as "casual" PvP in this try hard min max meta. Even in pugs you have players popping every consumable under the sun, which gives these players a massive advantage which means you also have to farm these consumables AND spec engineering to be on level footing. Sadly Classic WoW PvP has very little to do with skill and more to do with how big your pockets are.
Vanilla/classic farming is a lot more unpleasant than BfA farming to stay competitive. For BfA you farm M+ which is fun, for vanilla/classic you farm boring shit like broken consumables and world buffs.
@@xCheezyTacosx you get echoes from M+, so that's simply just M+ farming. Doing WQs takes like 15min a day. Grinding essences? Do you even play the fucking game? You don't grind essences, they unlock simply by playing. You dont grind visions either, visions is on a weekly cap that takes an hour a week to reach. The 3 M+ essences upgrade from weekly chest, raid essences upgrade from weekly raid drops, rep essences upgrade from rep that you get from doing WQs anyway. PvP essences unlock by doing a few PvP matches per week. There is no grind there. Not to mention that you only need to unlock essences once so after that's done you can stop going for pvp if you don't enjoy it, you should be exalted with all factions by now with a 90+ neck so WQs really don't matter anymore. Really the only thing left to do for players at a high level is to do M+ and mythic nyalotha. Nyalotha shouldn't even be needed anymore either for a high ranked player since it's been out for so long that everyone should have the gear they need from it. You can choose between killing nzoth or doing weekly vision for your weekly back upgrade. Either of them shouldn't take much longer than an hour per week. The only "grind" there is to do at a high level is doing M+. Come back to me when the only grind in Classic at a high level is doing the high level content, oh wait that will never happen.
@@xCheezyTacosx Fair enough, but all that time added up is still nothing compared to vanilla. And as repetitive as today's dailies and weeklies are, they are still not as repetitive as what you had to do in vanilla. Don't get me wrong, I also look fondly back to those times but I acknowledge that most of it is nostalgia.
@@MiniDemonic Not sure what level you played BFA at but i'll tell you right now that for raids you'd only grind m+ for the first couple weeks of the opening, the Island grind prior to any raid opening has been whats truly cancerous. If you're talking about the retail "grind" now 8 months after Ny'alotha, then yea, I'd agree you don't have to do shit. Though I wouldn't call that the standard throughout bfa, and essences at this point is watered down and easy to acquire. I still remember farming 100k honor, pushing arena, doing m+, shitton of islands a day and every AP wq across the board while still doing dumb dailies in mechagon because of the 1 essence that was really good for the Gorgonzola and dont forget farming pearls so you can gamble your way to gear that gave you a decent advantage in the raid, but also grind pearls to level that gear up.. just to raid at a decently competetive level. Worth mentioning even from a m+ standpoint this season that the grind early in the season is not "just do m+", I decided to focus on m+ but still had to raid mythic nyalotha because they locked some of the best gear for m+ in the raid, and don't forget the pvp pieces with perfect stat balance that you want to go for either or the perfect azerite pieces, only catch is that you got to be 2400. A lot of the time where you wanna focus on either type of content, you're forced into every and if that's not the content you'd like to be doing then it is by definition, grindy.
I thought this was going to be a video about metas that players had broken/changed now in comparison to the metas back in vanilla. Which I think would be an interesting idea for a vid. :D Still really enjoyed this too! :D
such servers are coming as soon as soon as this vanilla garbage game ends. it's quite possibly getting announced on the blizzcon this year under the name: WoW Classic: The Burning Crusade. it will also come with more end game content, class balance, challenging PVE content, improved PVP system, profession revamp and many more features that improved the quality of the game. said wow, along with the wrath of the lich king version, were the flagship versions that hold over 80% of wow playerbase (even now). vanilla was never the main reason why classic became a thing - it was the next 2 expansions that made it happen
While min-maxing would likely always be an eventuality, the minm-max nature brought on by the modern progression of retail has made it inescapably bad, and it kinda sucks the joy out of the game sometimes
@@MiniDemonic true but it's been made worse and worse. From being mostly done by more serious players, now even pugs for easy content often requires you to be optimal spec pre-raid BiS etc. And in retail often requires you to almost outgear the raid or dungeon you're joining. It went from option to pretty much mandatory in many cases
Back in the day it made sense to minmax. Nowadays we're balanced past current content and know what to do. Minmaxing in classic only makes sense for speedruns and world firsts
I just quit classic 2 weeks before the AQ patch. I was so hyped when I heard classic will come out. And I have to say, the disappointment was real. The magic is gone, its all about min maxing, about efficieny and not fun. Boosting, everybody having 5 max lvl alts, world buffs and and and.... I wanted to quit before aq and naxx because I want to keep the old memories I have and keep the nostalgia up. The Illusion of reliving vanilla is finally gone and I understand that you can bring back the old game but not the old community.
It really is a shame that people brought so much of the retail parse matching mindset into vanilla. It's also a shame that there isn't active development to curb optimization and keep the game fun and interesting. Staying on one patch for the entire expansion was a mistake. I still enjoy classic significantly more than retail, and have met some amazing people whilst playing. I can just see so much wasted potential. I hope if they decide to release TBC classic, they learn from it and add class balancing into the each phase.
@@kareemben9246 I agree that a whole lot of people have min/maxed their ass off, and that can ruin the game. But there are still smaller groups that dont care about min/max and attempt to enjoy what Classic was suppose to be.
Zachary Brunelle more and more this channel becomes a classic bashing channel.... It’s okay to talk about problems but how about giving suggestions. Dunno.... I think I desub soon.
Hazza8864 that’s what I’m talking about... he hyped classic and now he is bashing only. BTW I didn’t say it’s near perfect. I see many problems too. But what is the sense of this video? Aaaand he hypes TBC too and in some years he will bash it too? Wait for it....
started playing again a couple days ago. Server i'm on is dead from level 1-59. Feels like only the end game is important and the glorious grind to get there is long forgotten.
its one thing that is very unlike vanilla wow. Vanilla wow had growing population and constant influx of newbies and new levelers, in classic wow its the other way around if anything, so other than phase 1 leveling feels somewhat lonely for the most part
It never was a glorious grind. People were just incredibly shit at it. Saying it was hard is like saying staying above water in a pool is hard. Yes, when you never learned to swim, you might struggle. But read 1 guide on swimming and you'll be fine. People just didn't do that and struggled
Re: Class Balance, considering how simple the rotations are in Classic for Raid DPS, I imagine with modern analytics/Big Data would easily solve the problem to determine what needs to be buffed, what needs to be tweaked to get balancing of classes closer that they could tweak the coefficients almost weekly to keep things a bit closer and balanced. Even in Retail where there are so many systems on systems on systems which makes this harder, they've managed to balance DPS numbers to a degree, and all Races are _very_ close now, so in Classic it's be much, much easier. In Retail it's other benefits like "Beastmaster Hunters are best at AOE" and "Rogues have Shroud" that dictates who gets invited to M+ for example.
They had no idea how to properly balance both PVE and PVP back then. But it adds to the charm in a way, you pick certain classes with a certain goal/purpose, each class has something to it that attracts people or that they can excel at.
A really good video. The WoTLK flasks being weaker kinda shocked me. I have been all in for Shadowlands. I feel Blizzard can still make great content and good game design choices. They aren't perfect but they aren't always hopeless.
TBC is the most balanced expansion blizzard has ever put out, each class and spec has a role, and you can build your raid around multiple different comps, rogues are the only exception to this, but if you do not have a warrior tank, improved expose armor is awesome, so even they have a raid comp you can slot them into. Classes should never be balanced around having them do similar damage, they should be balanced around what they bring to the raid.
@@Evirthewarrior not true. wrath was more balanced in both pve and pvp in terms of viability, whether it was utility, damage, healing, or ability to tank. Not only that, but faction balance in TBC was objectively so bad that Alliance players are going to reroll Horde just for this expansion for various racial benefits that are just objectively better. Horde still dominated Wrath PvE and were good at BGs, but Alliance had some rebalance brought to them with the Human Racial changes.
@@rochellebantien3598 No, Wrath was worse, in many ways, they started trying to make the damage dealing classes more equal and moved away from having each class have a niche that it filled. Niches are better than "balance". The tank classes should have kept their niches. Instead of trying to make them viable in all situations. Niches are balanced, trying to make each class "equal" to fill any role, made them very unequal, to the point where Paladins were objectively the best tanks due to their cooldowns and DKs 2nd, leaving druids and warriors way behind, even though they tried to make them equal.
@@Evirthewarrior while TBC is my favorite expansion for which i cannot wait to come out, i have to disagree with you in terms of balance - both class and faction. if blizzard was to release TBC just as they did when it originally came out, the game would break apart. that's the sad truth. some faction balancing has to be done BEFORE the server release. classes in TBC had an identity and purpose and you needed every single class in PVE. high end PVP on the other hand, was a much different story and TBC was in no way a competitive game in that aspect. WOTLK did a much, much better job at balancing the entire game, especially in PVP. there's no arguing about that and you can check how many WOTLK arena servers there are and check the state there (top50s). while doing that, check how many arena TBC servers there are and compare the data (also include top50s and you'll see certain classes holding all the top spots in arena - like a resto druid).
@@LikeVenom18 I think the issue people are having with what I am saying is that not all classes, should do the same damage, healing, tank the same things the same way. When people think balance, they think you should be able to slot any ranged DPS into that slot and it preforms similar, any healer into a healing slot and it will be able to heal easily in any situation, just different. You can put any tank in any situation and it should be able to to tank just fine, just in a slightly different way. Each class should have strengths and weaknesses, each class should have unique things they bring to the table. In Wrath they started to homogenize things a bit. TBC was balanced because if you needed AOE tanking, you brought a paladin, they did great at it, thus making you want to bring a paladin and have a balanced raid composition. If you wanted a strong melee group in your raid, you had a Warrior, a shaman, a druid, A ret paladin. Thus you wanted to bring a balanced group, that complemented the whole. I think the "bring the player not the class" mentality path that blizzard went down because people wanted "balance" meaning, my moonkin should do as much damage as that warlock, or my feral druid should do as much as a rogue. I see that as bad game design and leads to imbalance and people constantly forced to play the new flavor of the month class that got buffed this patch when their current "main" got nerfed.
The min-maxing is insane I was removed from my guild last week for going into BWL with my full Tier .5 on my warrior. Like bro I was still 11th overall DPS I just wanted to wear my gear for a while can't anyone have fun anymore?
If you were still 11th overall dps than that guild has bigger problems. On the other hand, you need to see what kind of guild you're joining and what their expectations are. You could get away with it in more laid back casual guilds that don't care about clear speeds and shit. If it's a guild that's serious about progressing fast then it's completely justified that they remove you for that.
I don't understand why, but some people take clearing the same raid with ease the 30th time in a row still very seriously. It really baffles me. My guild is constantly struggling to get a full raid and finding new raiders. And when we then find someone with a non-meta spec (like moonkin or ret Pala) who are looking for a guild to raid with, my guild doesn't even consider it for a single second. They rather run bwl with 30 people, because apparently "meme specs aren't good enough"
Judas Iscariot Private servers would buff these bosses. Oh yeah and AV had 100 changes to make it just like retails. It just seems like Blizzard is being so half ass purposefully to try to convert classic lovers to retail.
@@xdesertx i think most of them left Blizz a while ago, change of the old guard if you like And considering the current environment, with Activision breathing on their necks and the low salaries, no sane person would tolerate that for +15 years
@@rurounigato Pretty sure the devs have decent salaries though. Even with the "report" that came out recently, it really just showed that they underpaid support staff and such. Besides, changing jobs is just kind of the norm, so anyone who stays at Blizzard does it simply because they like the company. Going back and forth between different companies is a much more effective way of raising your salary.
I think that if Classic was being developped today, a lot of issues the game has wouldn't have been there in the first place. Take the debuff cap, that wouldn't have been a thing since it was put in purely for technical reasons. Class balance is mainly caused by things being developped in isolation to eachother. Like they explained for world buffs, they just had people do stuff on their own. I don't think that lack of oversight would be present in a modern team. If they knew they'd have content with 40 people and only 8 then 16 debuff slots as the main focus of the game, they wouldn't have given warlocks that many dots and debuffs. Same for warrior bleed, rogue poison dots. Lots of specs are "bad" due to lack of gear support or bad gear scaling. It's something they fixed immediately in TBC with gear tokens and spec-based tier sets. Also with logging sites being a thing and the optimisation culture of current gaming, the devs would tweak the numbers to buff the specs that need it and nerf others in a timely fashion. Back to world buffs and consumables for a bit. I think they would keep world buffs because they're kinda neat. Even in the current game you still find lots of small buffs out in the world when questing or gathering. How they'd keep them in check? Probably a mix of purging the bigger ones when you enter a raid and reducing the duration of the smaller ones like songflower. If it's a 15 min buff, it's still good when you're questing in the zone, but it's not usable to push parses and if players start to use locks to teleport people to refresh those, they'd just add it to the purge list. Consumables would just get the battle / guardian elixir treatment and maybe they'd implement the 1 pot per fight limit they put in in later expansions. They'd also let go of design philosophies that work on paper but not in reality. Like the hybrid tax (which isn't even implemented properly since warriors don't pay it) or classes performing much worse due to buffing the raid in one way or another. Thing is, output difference being compensated by the raid dps they provide through buffs is a great idea that actually works... In FFXIV. But in that game, raids are 8-man content and you have strict raid compositions with always 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps with one dps of each kind (melee, ranged, caster). When you have 40 raid slots with no other limitation, well, just look at classic raid comps. I'll add that this philosophy comes from old tabletop RPGs like D&D where parties are much smaller too. For PvP, I think they would have used a ranked mode like we see in virtually every single multiplayer game these days. From the get-go, we would have had casual mode BGs where you'd just earn rep for that BG and is intended to be played for fun, and ranked BGs with an MMR system for matchmaking and a further split between solo queues and premade queues. You'd gain rep in ranked and they might as well just rip the league system we see in so many games. Basically making it about how well you can play the game instead of how much of it you can play. Now, AoE farming might not be nerfed, they might just make it harder to perform by replacing some mobs by ranged ones or giving death-grip like abilities to some mobs. Imagine if every third ZF zombie was an archer and every fifth zombie was a caster with a slow? Suddenly it becomes much harder to pull off while barely affecting groups clearing the dungeon normally. Hell, it makes the dungeon more fun to run thanks to more mob diversity. Also, current day pathing might be far less abusable.
“ Like the hybrid tax (which isn't even implemented properly since warriors don't pay it)” Um. Warriors don’t pay it because they are not a hybrid class.
The confusion is from the fact that in the modern game each specialization is taken outright, so a "hybrid" is one that can perform more than one role by spec swapping. In classic, hybrid means you have both defensive and healing capabilities, so druid, shaman and paladin. Priests dont pay the tax because they lack the defensive abilities the others have(yes disc was an aborted tank spec just like enhancement but it was scaled back whereas enhance was just....weird.) Since all classes come with all base level skills other than those deep in talent trees, the danger was of having a class that would have extreme survivability along with good healing and good damage, so they scaled each one of those items back a notch which in the end made those classes much weaker comparatively at a single role. Its a tricky thing because with the way they were unaware of balance back then, had they not done so we would be playing a hybrid-only meta nowadays. So, no matter how many emoji's you spam at people(which makes you look like an asshole, not them btw) its not that they're "wrong" just that they have a decade of knowledge related to a different system interfering with their perception.
I’d like a video of what class changes should happen in wow classic 1.12! This will be my first and probably only request for wow classic content! Thank you! 🙂
Premades in BG are fine, the Honor Ranking system is what needs to go. Something small like removing the honor decay and reworking how much ranking point you can gain at once would remove so much toxicity from this part of the game.
Eh, as a person who did a fair amount of PvP back in Vanilla, the current BG scene is nothing like it once was. FAPs, LIPs, Sappers, Grenades, and other consumes were rarely if ever used. Hell even Noggenfogger to slow fall down was really rare. Premades are pretty awful to anyone looking to casually PvP at all. The power gap between premades that use consumes against other premades is also pretty pronounced. That said, I do agree that if they just removed decay alone PvP would be much more bearable. Ranking has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with time spent. It would be nice to know that your progress wasn't lost if you stopped for awhile.
I only just got around to listening to the latest episode of the Good Morning Azeroth podcast and they shared the opinion that "no changes" attitude needs to go, and balancing/hotfixing needs to be more active. They even went as far as to say instead of dumping patch 2.4 they should start with 2.1 so the content is actually challenging.
Great video WillE!!! I don't like PvE in WoW classic. I'm generally fairly independant (ie I don't like people, especially some online), hate buff and consumes req., and I prefer PvP. However, PvP in WoW classic is incredibly frustrating, with alliance unable to win an Alterac Valley and facing constant premades in AB and WsG. Blizzard made it impossible to do AV premades (which I consider the best time I've had in classic), so I would hope they could do the same for AB and WsG.
I think 1 thing u forgot which is worth mentioning is the multiboxing.. some restritctions, somehow to prevent 1 player from being able to wipe most content on his own
i love fishing with multiple accounts, since fishing in classic is super slow, is great to have multiple guys fishing at the same time, just need to be clicking from 1 screen to another from time to time while watching anime.
@WillE To some extend, yeah. But i dont like it when they are able to make a 2-5 man group and just solo most 5-10 man dung content etc, its an mmo that fosters for grouping up and interact with eachother instead of
i enjoy getting a handfull of worldbuffs even for zg because i've had absolute aweful weapon drop luck and im still rocking a 52 blue on my mh, it makes up the damage gap so long as i don't mess up my rotation
Agree 100%.. I wish there was a vanilla wow with nerfed consumables and removed world buffs.. that would be way closer to the original experience at least, that’s for sure.
I feel like consumables stacking isn't bad, notably with the flasks for exemple, but them being so strong is. It let's every player do whatever preparation they want for raids, each at their own level. It shouldn't be a significant buff though, not as much as it is right now, but still a bit of a power boost to reward investment in the game.
I'm pretty new to WoW and hardly understand anything you talk about since I also just play retail, but I really enjoy watching just because of you really look into sources, and of course your cool voice
Back in vanilla when this was introduced, 40man was the only way to play the game, Ion is part of the reason that we has 10n through 25M allowing for different levels of play
I would disagree on the thought on premades in PvP - the focus would instead need to be on the honor system not being absolute garbage, fighting your own faction more than the other.
@@WillEmmo Well, one of the things they could do would be to reduce honor decay to 10% per week while simultaneously getting rid of premades larger than a single group. I get that they wanted the top PvP tier to be really exclusive; but I think they need to dial that back and simply accept a larger percentage of people at max rank.
As a warrior trying to level its sucks already then a mage shows up. I just go why do I try. Mage comes aoe all the mobs. I finally kill my one guy. Try to group with mage and they decline because they don't want to lose their exp..... so a quest take 3 or 4 times as long because the mage keeps aoeing all the mobs and won't party with me for 5 mins cuz his exp.
Man that'd be crazy. Imagine if it brought back the demoms and stuff from Warcraft 3, that'd be awesome! I hope we get to see Illidan in WoW at some point
@@rudy1999 Specifically, we were addressing the horrible state of min/max madness and guilds REQUIRING such things before they'll allow you to set food into a raid with them. It's widespread. You can't just "make a choice not to do it." Being an MMO makes everyone and everything interconnected. There's no "play the game how you like" if you want to interact with others at all, because other players dictate the parameters and boundaries under which you can realistically do that. He's completely correct, too -- the encounters were balanced under the assumption that you weren't going to stack 100% of these buffs 100% of the time (I don't even understand what's so fun about trivializing the content), so it's utterly ridiculous for all these guilds to get pissy about requiring them. It's really tough to find a raiding guild that will be reasonable about it anymore. He's also correct in that it's not even NEEDED, so why the crap-elitest attitude about it?
That blue lettering of vanilla Dev on the thumb nail is Playing Tricks on my brain it looks like it's sunken into the picture but at the same time it also looks like it pops out at me
@@HbVki have you looked at rp servers? grobb has tons of guilds on both sides clearing content with very little care about meta even some race locked guilds are clearing out raids. sure they're not doing it fast but i guarantee you were having a good deal more fun with it.
@@SD78 Grob was a great server. And I was in a great guild. I'm sure it still is, but I quit the game a while back. We had ele shaman, enh shaman, a boomkin, a feral druid commonly raiding.
Those 5 metas are the reason I stopped playing two weeks after playing the game again. I wanted to play the game, not turn it into a chore. Also, I'm not going to pay $15 a month for a 16 year old game that isn't actively developed and is left with such glaring issues that it turns what used to be a fun thing to do into a min-max competition. Here are a few ideas on how to fix the broken metas in the game: 1 World Buffs - Make the timer continue whether you're logged in or logged out. It still gives you a nice boost, especially for leveling, but you're not going to be able to coordinate to have them all going at once. Alternatively, they could make it so the buffs don't stack. 2 Consumables - Increase the cooldown of using another consumable or make it so they do not stack 3 Mage AoE - Limit the number of targets AoE will hit (like what happened in TBC) or put monsters on a leash in the dungeons. 4 Premades - Limit the number of premade players in each BG, or create a separate queue 5 Class Balance - Assign a few developers to implement balance changes
All of this YES! When classic WoW starts the cycle again from Wrath, ALL of these changes should be implemented! Then we'd have an ACTUAL Vanilla Experience as it was then.
Class Balance is such an issue. People have been blaming "meme" spec players for their desire to play a class clearly designed to be played rather than blaming Blizzard for the lack of balance, this is clearly upside down.
Pretty sure the first thing that would get fixed is the AV map balance issues, there is no reason any dev would not be racing to fix a balance issue if the map was causing an 80% winrate, let alone the 95-99% winrate horde currently have in AV due to massive map advantages.
i personaly like games that have Potion´s and other buffs/prepirations you can make helps you get stronger. I always play the Alchemist skill tree in Witcher 3 and i love it . Witcher 3 is the best example of how it chould/should be in general .
I feel like it should have a middle ground. If you're undergeared, then the buffs and consumes should bring you up to par, but if you're overgeared then it's just speedrunning at that point.
Dont expect blizzard to change anything regarding classic. For them its just a cash cow requiring minimal resources keeping their subscription count up. If they were trying to "balance" classes, pvp, consumeables, world buffs, aoe farming etc they would upset 60%+ of their playerbase. Literally noone cares wheter ret paladins or moonkins are rocking the meters. Players expect to bypass 90% of the raid mechanics by using buffs/consumeables. Tons of people are willing to pay mages their gold to level another twink. Predictability is one of the reasons so many people hang on to the game. Classic started with "#nochanges" and should end right there.
You say “literally noone cares wheter ret paladins or moonkins are rocking the meters” yet here i am struggling to find a guild for the easiest content ever in game. The game isnt the problem, its the players that are really toxic all around for every aspect of the game.
Premades may be a problem in WSG and AB but not in AV any more. AV itself is the problem. In its current state it's a 99% Horde win ratio (not even exaggerating) where you can count the overall wins of Alliance raids across a whole region on 1 hand per day. This is both to glaring advantages for Horde (Horde NPCs being stronger, Terrain favoring Horde both in offence and defence) and due to how alliance players just mostly want to get exalted with Stormpike guard and then never come back, starting to do it as soon as they can enter (lvl 51), not having an epic mount etc while you face fully geared all-100% mount horde rankers who need to take any opportunity to squeeze out the last bit of honor out of every BG pop due to their huge waiting times (1h and more). Also Blizzard scrambling AV for players queuing at the same time is a huge difference to how it worked in vanilla.
Easy fix for World Buffs is simply make them not function in Raids. Also, debuff slot caps I think would have been the first to go. Rebalance the bosses for more or less unlimited debuff slots.
Blizzard have simply dumped a version of classic on us and left it with no development and nothing new. They have lazily given us a game that requires them to do vitually nothing to maintain and update.. I would have prefered classic with a whole new line of development instead of following the TBC path to eventually become retail again.
This is what I wanted. An alternative history/timeline thing. Say in TBC we team up with Illidan to beat Kiljaeden instead of killing Illidan. Then for Wrath, say Illidan succeeds in using the eye to kill the LK, then we have to deal with the scourge gone wild. Multiple paths to take, instead we get the most basic thing ever. Something weve already had and requiring the minimum effort on Activisions part. Oh well.
I don't think you realize how many people playing classic have never played vanilla before. I doubt blizz wants to avoid doing things people actually want with their shareholders breathing down their necks about their quarterly statements. People wanted vanilla wow, ZERO changes and so they cant split the demand to stir up a quarterly disaster...they also offered the idea of classic + later on. So hopefully both sides win in time.
While i do enjoy dressing down blizzard, it's a little unfair to say they were lazy and just dumped an unmodified classic on us. unmodified classic is what people wanted - there was a very vocal amount of the players saying no changes means no changes. in a lot of cases this even extended to hardware limitations like debuff slots (though not always) - i seem to remember blizzard wanting to change a few things to modernise the game but the crowd was not having it.
@@Hellothere-lk7xi Yes many people did ask for no changes. The reason they did is because they didnt trust Activision to actually make the correct ones. So instead they wanted something that at minimum "used" to be good. At the same time, even if they gave us Classic and didnt change it because we asked for it, that still doesnt mean that an unaltered Classic is the easiest thing for them to do. It required the least amount of work to make, least amount of maintenance, and since they arent going to change/improve anything until TBC Classic, its all easy money for them. They knew they needed more servers at launch, they knew layering wasnt an answer it was a bandaid. In fact, their solution was for layering to eventually not be needed because enough people would quit. Hows that for fucking lazy. Instead of actually solving the problem and spend money, we will wait until enough people quit playing Classic, and hopefully retain enough on Retail to turn a profit.
@@VeeDubBeetle You are saying why sell diet Mt Dew when people still are buying regular Mt Dew? Ummmmm that doesn't work lol. Why make a sequel when people still buy the original DVDs and mech? They could make more money, in case you didn't get the point.
That's a pretty bad take. Classic WoW was never pitched as an MMO that was going to be developed alongside retail. They clearly reiterated all the actual dev focus was still on retail. Classic was created as a tourist attraction and something to fill in gaps between retail patches. They aren't going to waste dev budget on classic when they can just release TBC classic and make just as much money.
Wille I have tons of friends who quit simply because they played classic just for PvP and the premades ruined it for them so they quit. Can u please bring up the topic of premades in battlegrounds more often? I’d like blizzard to see the video it needs to be brought to their attention by someone higher up like you. Ty
Blizzard is aware of the problem but don't care enough to do anything about it. It is not some conscious design decision, it's just how pvp was designed back then. My advice: if you like mmo pvp, look elsewhere
I could care less about the neckbeardiness of the world buff meta, but the pvp needs a change. Really wish they just made it different so badly. Also the last point you made in the video never occurred to me. Such a great point 👏
People tend to forget that not only game itself counts, but also the mindset of the players. Our view on video gaming was different than it is now. So overall, Vanilla then was something completely different than Vanilla now. It's like comparing having sex for the first time, and after twenty years of marriage.
Hey WillE! I know about 5 months ago you did a video on "is it too late to start classic?" Can you do a video on if its worth it to start playing classic wow at this point in August? Most people can't answer these questions specifically. The questions are: Is it too late to start leveling? Which servers are best for leveling? Can I level soon enough to experience end game content? Which servers are best for experiencing end game fore newer players? Can I still experience the beginning content of the end game? Will guilds still be interested in me? DPS, healers, tanks? Is it worth it at this point, or should I casually level a player for TBC classic release? Thanks!
Don’t really need a whole video for this. All the content is available and playable, if you check server pops you can easily find an active server for the faction you want. There are regular pugs for early raids and mc/ony/zg are very easy to do. Your character will likely transfer to tbc so even if you are a slow leveler you could have a character ready to go for tbc. I would say that with roughly 200-300 hours played you could have a raid ready level 60, depending on your class.
Having never played vanilla, and enjoying classic I think: Nerf world buffs and nerf xp with level 60's in group, consumes can be op ya but collecting crafting them etc it a legit part of game play. I know most people want vanilla wow and don't fuck with it however I think tho that changing the way world buffs work is still closer to original than buff stacking every raid and not being able to log into the game till raid time is ridiculous. Mabye they could put that in place right before naxxx. Another thing they should do is just ask the players!! Put a poll on login page asking what people want sometimes.
Flasks are outrageously OP, but also remember that black lotus were BoP and the flasks did not persist through death until the 1.7 patch. Those changes are what made them broken.
The most fun I've had in the game was learning how to do ZG 1 pull. I started early before any videos and such so had to learn it myself. Died hundreds of times, but got it. Had so much fun learning it though and theory crafting to figure it all out. And yea you can do the witches with crocs if you get the right roll, but not really tigers. Tigers take forever to kill.
@mdx It's more like that aoe farming is an extremely easy way of farming gold. That said, everyone can level as many mages as they want and for me, although not quite as efficient, you can solo instances with a warlock too.
I really hope that a modern dev team would nerf diamond flask scaling off +healing. Really frustrating that the meta right now demands warriors gather healing gear. Warriors are already great in classic, they don't need a broken trinket from their level 50 class quest.
I don't think blizz can ever or should ever do actual nerfs or buffs to classes or world buffs since they were part of the game. Remember the game has to be preserved its not an active "in development" game its suppose to be a kinda of time capsule. I would do a few changes that don't change the game fundamentally but would fix a bunch of problems. 1. get rid of spell batching and use the new system 2. remove melee leeway 3. use modern AI path finding for mobs.
Having played the game since December 28, 2004 I found that the game was a bit harder in vanilla, when classic came out I did play it. I made it to 60 on a frost mage and a warrior, did Molten Core and BWL both and thought both were easier to play compared to vanilla. Not only due to the buffs, but also due to the add-ons that we are now allowed to use, in vanilla getting caught with an add-on was an insta-ban for your entire account. So having add-ons in classic is also a big part of people having an easier time in classic than in vanilla, take away all the add-ons and start deleting peoples toons that get caught with them and see how people fare in the raids then. Also with the flasks, the drop rate of black lotus should be lowered quite a bit, as an herbalist/alchemist, it would take me close to 30 hours a week of grinding herbs in a week just to get enough herbs to make flasks for the guild to raid with in vanilla.
What? Insta-ban for using addons? You're going to need some actual citation for that claim because I'm pretty sure it's bullshit. There was literally an addons button in the game menu...
They've said before they didn't get rid of world buffs because they thought they were overpowered, they did it so guilds wouldn't feel forced to go back and farm old content.
Also I think the philosophy of raid consumes just changed when they realized that they were the more casual MMO which is what they set out to do in the first place. Personally I think that the amount of power you gain from putting in the extra effort actually adds to the game. Also the philosophy of class balance I think is completely backwards now. The direction they went was the every class was good at everything they could do. Whereas in classic classes were good at one thing and could usually be serviceable at another. When you pick a priest you should know that you're picking a healer. When you play a druid you should know that you're playing a healer. When you're playing a warrior you should know that you're going to be a tank. I think that instead of every class being good at everything making sure that every class is on par with the best for their niche would make the game more rewarding and fun.
Can't believe it has been almost a year. Wish in one sense that it was developed in a bit since there has been changes and mechanics like layering etc. Mages needs to be nerfed, world buffs nerfed and out-dated mechanics like those still in the game due to us having bad internet when vanilla was originally launched.
honestly this is why ive never been a fan of how loud the no changes crowd was (and still is to some degree). weve already had changes just because the game runs on a modern system now, and i dont think it would have made the game The Worst Thing Ever if the devs were allowed to tweak some things still i still love classic for what it is but man, some of these things, lol
@@alexander1055 i mean like, yeah, sure, but that wasnt the core of my comment. my gripes are with the crowd that is loudly and vehemently anti-change no matter what. tweaking things to be a little more balanced =/= outright changes. i dont see how thats any different than nerfing extreme farms or changing the spawn of lotus in felwood
i think the community forces blizzard to not act on any of these issues, could you imagine the backlash on the forums if suddenly they introduced an AoE cap?
I see your point. In my opinion, the biggest problem in this classic was layering. It destroyed the economy of the game. The second one is that they decided to roll out the nerfed version of the game, resulting in this easy content. They should have released harder dungeons/raids. It would also prolong the longevity of the game and they wouldn't have to release all the patches and raids so much faster. That being said, me as a 32yo old man now with a child of my own and wife wouldn't be able to follow up the countless hours of farming and countless hours of raiding(considering that MC would take many wipes and many hours to complete as I remember it from vanilla). I still do think that harder raid and harder game would be a greater more epic adventure and would minimize the problem with the world buffs and consumables, because you would definitely need them to kill the bosses. Also, killing bosses would again feel rewarding and epic loot would be a thing to be proud of. Now, everybody wield legendarys and its ridiculous. Kinda feels like retail tbh.
If they didn't use layering, you would've had to wait for literal hours to kill a quest mob because hundreds of players would be waiting for it to respawn.
while i agree with what you have said, i believe community very strongly cried out for no changes but now that they see the game is sooo utterly broken and unfair to what they remember it being they want it changed. So I mean like u got what u asked for in a sense unbalanced classes, people large scale multiboxing, botting, griefing , min-maxing everything. its what u asked and signed up for when everyone kept saying no changes to the game they loved in the past
No one asked for a broken game. People wanted #nochanges and instead got #badchanges. Would have been different if blizzard proposed some needed changes right off the bat, but they never intended to do anything.
there where only a couple of times back then that I managed to get into a raid with song flower, dragon slayer and DM buffs active along with potions, scrolls, food, Ext. But when I did, I'd top the charts in DPS *_and_* healing with my enhance shaman! Until the buffs dropped of course. But it was a lot of fun while they lasted, though managing aggro became a lot trickier.
@Phily T keep the game as it is with all the problems end of story, We all know that blizzard well just make way it worst if they try to do anything to classic. All the good devs that know how to make the game from 2004 to 2011 work are gone.
Just like the guy above me said, even with EVERY raid being piss easy, MOST (and i swear i mean mooooossst!) guilds REQUIRE u to do the most boring and annoying things to be min-maxed, one week u slack and now ur raid spot isnt stable.
imagine if Classic players experienced the Vanilla difficulty = without all these patches and imetization that never existed in Vanilla...i bet they would be amazed
I don't think any of these really are the problem (although top tier raidings guilds knew in vanilla that world buffs were insane): the problem is the min-max, optimisation culture that's been brought to Classic from private servers. Hell, on my server, which is RP-PvP, we fight our own faction more than the opposing because of world bosses, loot, buffs etc, just to get an edge (or something, I am not sure why some guilds grief others of the same faction). Had Vanilla been developed today, the only difference I think is that Blizzard would've probably been more active in class balance, as well as putting limits on buffs. Of course, had vanilla been developed today, it wouldn't have looked at all like this. Engineering would likely have been a class of its own (goblin/gnome alchemist/tinkerer), for one.
I wish there was better class balance. They could have atleast added alternate tier sets for the Paladins, Priests, Shammys and Druids. Not all of them just healers. Trying to gear up a Shadow Priest blows, you are rolling against Mages and Warlocks for the majority of the gear and sometimes the healers too (Lok'amir il Romathis for example) and they are considered more important so the poor SP is right at the back of the que. I've got no chance of ever getting Neltharion's Tear.
they added that... in the next expansion called "The Burning Crusade", which made all the classes relevant and you could actually play the spec you like and not the spec you had to. sounds unreal, doesn't it?
A lot of the issues of Vanilla were probably pushed off to be fixed with TBC once it was decided to make an expansion for the game. That probably happened quite early, possibly before players even got to AQ.
That and people who played back then is totally different. A lot of these problems were not so glaring back in original vanilla. They already had the expansion planned very early as well if you watch the old Wow exploration videos with some of the tbc zones were in the game just not finished.
Yeah, consumes and world buffs would have been nerfd. I remember it took halfway through TBC to balance that, but if blizzard made a Classic+, the consumes and crafting would be the first thing to change. Hunters would get a buff to their pve rotation, and warriors would get a nerf bat.
TBC addressed many of the class issues for sure but more importantly it addressed the guild issues and the 5 man content issues Vanilla is/was plagued with. TBC wasn't perfect but it fixed a great many of the problems vanilla WoW faces.
Barca needed it to finally clean house. They have been stacking up attackers that don't fit their attack instead of defenders they DESPERATELY need. Messi has two more years - tops... I hope they can build one more winner before he retires
I'm pretty sure that is what everybody would like, if Blizzard just brings out Vanilla with sayed changes like nerfed WB, better class balance and classic + content
Soooo... Maybe they should add a tool that makes finding a party easier? Or what about different raid difficulties, that be great! And maybe a system where you can actually grind for better gear and more power? Ohh, wait that's Retail. If you want a mmo where most of those issues are fixed, go play retail. Like Blizzard said, you think you want it...
@@ijustownyouall why would anyone be playing retail? no idea why you even mentioned that here knowing that TBC is coming out in 6-8 months or so, which fixed all of the issues he said in his comment. vanilla was never the reason why classic petition succeeded and why we actually have classic servers - it was all the communities from TBC and WOTLK that made it happen and you'll see how many die hard fans will remain on the vanilla servers once TBC launches. i suspect that over 90% of playerbase will move to TBC and won't think even for a second to go back to vanilla, even if they released fresh vanilla servers. the difference in game quality is just that huge... and WOTLK playerbase is by far the largest one in the private server community and far more people still play WOTLK (and TBC) than people playing classic and retail combined. not because the game is free that way, but because these games are just that much better.
I don't mind world buffs. No one forces anyone to do it. The content is very doable without and more annoying with someties when you lose them. And your doing MC for like 10months they are just helpful to get that shit done easier. Also there is NOTHING wrong with consumables. I like the fact this is an actualy RPG where potions actually have an effect. If you're spending 200g a pop for ur pots I'd say you EARNED a power spike.
" A buch of dude's making content that was cool " i miss this .. 😢
Now it's a bunch of drones making Activision paychecks
@@lolpaladindps to the Appeasement of the CCP
@@lolpaladindps "A bunch of dudes making content" wouldn't have a prayer of keeping up with our min/max mathcraft streamer culture. It had to change.
@@PsyrenXY ROFL oh yeah min/maxing those mobile game gains
@@lolpaladindps world buff meta didnt exist in Vanilla to this degree. Is Classic a mobile game then?
Removing the debuff limit would buff alot of non competitive classes
In an odd way I enjoy the debuff limit. I like that everyone has to work together to pick what's best for the raid
Csquared yeah it’s super fun not being able to play specific specs and use abilities. I, like you, prefer playing with using less than half my abilities.
@@csquared4538 no fire mages, warlock curses, druide moonfires etc... ofc it would also get out of hand if you spam just one class I assume
@@imoffendedthatyouareoffended Calm down m8, he was just stating he likes it. He never said it should stick around or that it's good for the game. You can like something, or the idea of something, and understand it's also bad for the game.
I too like the idea of the raid needing to work together and pick which debuffs to use. Adds a new depth to raiding that the whole team needs to overcome. I also acknowledge that classes are being punished by it, making some entirely useless, so I believe it should go. I love the idea of the teamwork it can foster, but I agree it needs to go.
But we don't know if he's for or against it, so there's no need to passive-aggressively insult him.
@@orangemc9358 You're the one overreacting lol
I wish blizz would matchmake premades into fighting other premades, and completely separate players doing BG's alone. That way you can either be top-tier competitive or do some casual pvp as a change of pace.
you mean the way premades are handled in retail now? xD
There is no such thing as "casual" PvP in this try hard min max meta. Even in pugs you have players popping every consumable under the sun, which gives these players a massive advantage which means you also have to farm these consumables AND spec engineering to be on level footing. Sadly Classic WoW PvP has very little to do with skill and more to do with how big your pockets are.
Not true. You could have a bis warrior with world buffs, and consumes, but a naked mage will still be able.to r1 frostbolt kite till they die.
@@VideoGamesRus100 Bruh, free action potion.
@@Dirkzy and then you get pollied and look like a fool
Nice touch including Kevin's thoughts there, great work.
"and forcing players players into a cycle of unpleasant farming in order to even have a chance", well look where we are now, in BfA, Mr. Ion.
Vanilla/classic farming is a lot more unpleasant than BfA farming to stay competitive. For BfA you farm M+ which is fun, for vanilla/classic you farm boring shit like broken consumables and world buffs.
@@MiniDemonic what about vision farming, world quest farming, echo farming, grinding essences to max rank?
@@xCheezyTacosx you get echoes from M+, so that's simply just M+ farming. Doing WQs takes like 15min a day. Grinding essences? Do you even play the fucking game? You don't grind essences, they unlock simply by playing. You dont grind visions either, visions is on a weekly cap that takes an hour a week to reach. The 3 M+ essences upgrade from weekly chest, raid essences upgrade from weekly raid drops, rep essences upgrade from rep that you get from doing WQs anyway. PvP essences unlock by doing a few PvP matches per week. There is no grind there.
Not to mention that you only need to unlock essences once so after that's done you can stop going for pvp if you don't enjoy it, you should be exalted with all factions by now with a 90+ neck so WQs really don't matter anymore. Really the only thing left to do for players at a high level is to do M+ and mythic nyalotha. Nyalotha shouldn't even be needed anymore either for a high ranked player since it's been out for so long that everyone should have the gear they need from it. You can choose between killing nzoth or doing weekly vision for your weekly back upgrade. Either of them shouldn't take much longer than an hour per week.
The only "grind" there is to do at a high level is doing M+. Come back to me when the only grind in Classic at a high level is doing the high level content, oh wait that will never happen.
@@xCheezyTacosx Fair enough, but all that time added up is still nothing compared to vanilla.
And as repetitive as today's dailies and weeklies are, they are still not as repetitive as what you had to do in vanilla.
Don't get me wrong, I also look fondly back to those times but I acknowledge that most of it is nostalgia.
@@MiniDemonic Not sure what level you played BFA at but i'll tell you right now that for raids you'd only grind m+ for the first couple weeks of the opening, the Island grind prior to any raid opening has been whats truly cancerous. If you're talking about the retail "grind" now 8 months after Ny'alotha, then yea, I'd agree you don't have to do shit. Though I wouldn't call that the standard throughout bfa, and essences at this point is watered down and easy to acquire. I still remember farming 100k honor, pushing arena, doing m+, shitton of islands a day and every AP wq across the board while still doing dumb dailies in mechagon because of the 1 essence that was really good for the Gorgonzola and dont forget farming pearls so you can gamble your way to gear that gave you a decent advantage in the raid, but also grind pearls to level that gear up.. just to raid at a decently competetive level. Worth mentioning even from a m+ standpoint this season that the grind early in the season is not "just do m+", I decided to focus on m+ but still had to raid mythic nyalotha because they locked some of the best gear for m+ in the raid, and don't forget the pvp pieces with perfect stat balance that you want to go for either or the perfect azerite pieces, only catch is that you got to be 2400. A lot of the time where you wanna focus on either type of content, you're forced into every and if that's not the content you'd like to be doing then it is by definition, grindy.
It turns out it wasn’t classic wow we enjoyed but the people we played with that no longer exist
You can bring back wow classic but you cant bring back its community. 💔
Nailed it
They all died :O
@@Danhasadog Yeah, some did...
Not true at all wtf, I'm having a blast
I thought this was going to be a video about metas that players had broken/changed now in comparison to the metas back in vanilla. Which I think would be an interesting idea for a vid. :D Still really enjoyed this too! :D
I don't even play classic and absolutely love your videos! Incredibly informational and love keeping up with where classic is at.
I'd like "Updated Classic" servers.
Where more classes/specs were viable and not left out.
Debuff slots on bosses gone and so too world buffs.
don't forgett Spell Batching
such servers are coming as soon as soon as this vanilla garbage game ends. it's quite possibly getting announced on the blizzcon this year under the name: WoW Classic: The Burning Crusade. it will also come with more end game content, class balance, challenging PVE content, improved PVP system, profession revamp and many more features that improved the quality of the game. said wow, along with the wrath of the lich king version, were the flagship versions that hold over 80% of wow playerbase (even now). vanilla was never the main reason why classic became a thing - it was the next 2 expansions that made it happen
@@LikeVenom18 People like TBC and WOTLK but Classic is definitely a thing for it's own sake
#NoChanges
Classic reforged
1) World Buffs
2) Pots and Consumable Buffs
3) Mage AoE farming
4) Premades
5) Class Balance
So, basically they’d make tbc (like the guy in the comment above this one said)
While min-maxing would likely always be an eventuality, the minm-max nature brought on by the modern progression of retail has made it inescapably bad, and it kinda sucks the joy out of the game sometimes
Don't join a min max guild
@@dmtppfish1312 I haven't. I don't exclusively interact with the guild. This is a gsme-wide issue
@@DeviousWizard Min-maxing isn't new in retail. It's been there since vanilla.
@@MiniDemonic true but it's been made worse and worse. From being mostly done by more serious players, now even pugs for easy content often requires you to be optimal spec pre-raid BiS etc. And in retail often requires you to almost outgear the raid or dungeon you're joining. It went from option to pretty much mandatory in many cases
Back in the day it made sense to minmax. Nowadays we're balanced past current content and know what to do. Minmaxing in classic only makes sense for speedruns and world firsts
Big fan of classic (as flawed as it is now) and your channel. Subscribed!
I just quit classic 2 weeks before the AQ patch. I was so hyped when I heard classic will come out. And I have to say, the disappointment was real. The magic is gone, its all about min maxing, about efficieny and not fun. Boosting, everybody having 5 max lvl alts, world buffs and and and....
I wanted to quit before aq and naxx because I want to keep the old memories I have and keep the nostalgia up.
The Illusion of reliving vanilla is finally gone and I understand that you can bring back the old game but not the old community.
It really is a shame that people brought so much of the retail parse matching mindset into vanilla. It's also a shame that there isn't active development to curb optimization and keep the game fun and interesting. Staying on one patch for the entire expansion was a mistake.
I still enjoy classic significantly more than retail, and have met some amazing people whilst playing. I can just see so much wasted potential. I hope if they decide to release TBC classic, they learn from it and add class balancing into the each phase.
@@ATDF1 I agree, that's the only hope I have currently. TBC.
@@kareemben9246 I agree that a whole lot of people have min/maxed their ass off, and that can ruin the game. But there are still smaller groups that dont care about min/max and attempt to enjoy what Classic was suppose to be.
Did you play on a high pop server? See alot less of that crap on "medium" sized servers.
I love it.
Best classic content creator
Agreed 1000%
Also the lil Wille gnome that pops up every video brings me more and more joy
Correct
Agreed
I feel like this video could just be called "5 problems with vanilla wow"
*Classic WoW
Zachary Brunelle more and more this channel becomes a classic bashing channel....
It’s okay to talk about problems but how about giving suggestions. Dunno.... I think I desub soon.
@@NeinnLive The suggestion is implied, fix those major problems.
@@NeinnLive if you think the game is anywhere near perfect, maybe you should find another content creator
Hazza8864 that’s what I’m talking about... he hyped classic and now he is bashing only. BTW I didn’t say it’s near perfect. I see many problems too. But what is the sense of this video?
Aaaand he hypes TBC too and in some years he will bash it too? Wait for it....
Yeah for sure man. Love the content. You always have thoughtful and provoking content that is well put together and edited. Keep up the good work!
I love how you hit every angle when you do your videos... Thanks for the great content and please keep it coming. Love this channel!
would be fun if they could fix some of the things on your list, classic+ doesn't need to be a new game, just some tweaks and stuff
@ComocosonoEWL Vanilla never existed in this state, with 1.12 balancing for an entire year. It was always evolving.
started playing again a couple days ago. Server i'm on is dead from level 1-59. Feels like only the end game is important and the glorious grind to get there is long forgotten.
That's sad to hear, I was just about to start again.
I never made it to endgame when classic launched, all my friends quit by the time I hit 53. Lol
@@Giliver Dude me too. This time i'm destined to get to 60 but man is it lonely
Most servers are dead from 1 to 50ish
You can get group in BRD at 50+, as ppl still farm there
its one thing that is very unlike vanilla wow. Vanilla wow had growing population and constant influx of newbies and new levelers, in classic wow its the other way around if anything, so other than phase 1 leveling feels somewhat lonely for the most part
It never was a glorious grind. People were just incredibly shit at it.
Saying it was hard is like saying staying above water in a pool is hard. Yes, when you never learned to swim, you might struggle. But read 1 guide on swimming and you'll be fine. People just didn't do that and struggled
Re: Class Balance, considering how simple the rotations are in Classic for Raid DPS, I imagine with modern analytics/Big Data would easily solve the problem to determine what needs to be buffed, what needs to be tweaked to get balancing of classes closer that they could tweak the coefficients almost weekly to keep things a bit closer and balanced.
Even in Retail where there are so many systems on systems on systems which makes this harder, they've managed to balance DPS numbers to a degree, and all Races are _very_ close now, so in Classic it's be much, much easier. In Retail it's other benefits like "Beastmaster Hunters are best at AOE" and "Rogues have Shroud" that dictates who gets invited to M+ for example.
They had no idea how to properly balance both PVE and PVP back then. But it adds to the charm in a way, you pick certain classes with a certain goal/purpose, each class has something to it that attracts people or that they can excel at.
A really good video. The WoTLK flasks being weaker kinda shocked me.
I have been all in for Shadowlands. I feel Blizzard can still make great content and good game design choices. They aren't perfect but they aren't always hopeless.
I agree w everythimg here, id love to see them attempt to balance TBC like a regular expansion
TBC is the most balanced expansion blizzard has ever put out, each class and spec has a role, and you can build your raid around multiple different comps, rogues are the only exception to this, but if you do not have a warrior tank, improved expose armor is awesome, so even they have a raid comp you can slot them into. Classes should never be balanced around having them do similar damage, they should be balanced around what they bring to the raid.
@@Evirthewarrior not true. wrath was more balanced in both pve and pvp in terms of viability, whether it was utility, damage, healing, or ability to tank. Not only that, but faction balance in TBC was objectively so bad that Alliance players are going to reroll Horde just for this expansion for various racial benefits that are just objectively better. Horde still dominated Wrath PvE and were good at BGs, but Alliance had some rebalance brought to them with the Human Racial changes.
@@rochellebantien3598 No, Wrath was worse, in many ways, they started trying to make the damage dealing classes more equal and moved away from having each class have a niche that it filled. Niches are better than "balance".
The tank classes should have kept their niches. Instead of trying to make them viable in all situations.
Niches are balanced, trying to make each class "equal" to fill any role, made them very unequal, to the point where Paladins were objectively the best tanks due to their cooldowns and DKs 2nd, leaving druids and warriors way behind, even though they tried to make them equal.
@@Evirthewarrior while TBC is my favorite expansion for which i cannot wait to come out, i have to disagree with you in terms of balance - both class and faction. if blizzard was to release TBC just as they did when it originally came out, the game would break apart. that's the sad truth. some faction balancing has to be done BEFORE the server release. classes in TBC had an identity and purpose and you needed every single class in PVE. high end PVP on the other hand, was a much different story and TBC was in no way a competitive game in that aspect. WOTLK did a much, much better job at balancing the entire game, especially in PVP. there's no arguing about that and you can check how many WOTLK arena servers there are and check the state there (top50s). while doing that, check how many arena TBC servers there are and compare the data (also include top50s and you'll see certain classes holding all the top spots in arena - like a resto druid).
@@LikeVenom18 I think the issue people are having with what I am saying is that not all classes, should do the same damage, healing, tank the same things the same way.
When people think balance, they think you should be able to slot any ranged DPS into that slot and it preforms similar, any healer into a healing slot and it will be able to heal easily in any situation, just different. You can put any tank in any situation and it should be able to to tank just fine, just in a slightly different way.
Each class should have strengths and weaknesses, each class should have unique things they bring to the table. In Wrath they started to homogenize things a bit.
TBC was balanced because if you needed AOE tanking, you brought a paladin, they did great at it, thus making you want to bring a paladin and have a balanced raid composition. If you wanted a strong melee group in your raid, you had a Warrior, a shaman, a druid, A ret paladin. Thus you wanted to bring a balanced group, that complemented the whole.
I think the "bring the player not the class" mentality path that blizzard went down because people wanted "balance" meaning, my moonkin should do as much damage as that warlock, or my feral druid should do as much as a rogue. I see that as bad game design and leads to imbalance and people constantly forced to play the new flavor of the month class that got buffed this patch when their current "main" got nerfed.
Good idea to keep portraying the changes u want to see! Thanks for the appearance
The min-maxing is insane I was removed from my guild last week for going into BWL with my full Tier .5 on my warrior. Like bro I was still 11th overall DPS I just wanted to wear my gear for a while can't anyone have fun anymore?
If you were still 11th overall dps than that guild has bigger problems.
On the other hand, you need to see what kind of guild you're joining and what their expectations are. You could get away with it in more laid back casual guilds that don't care about clear speeds and shit. If it's a guild that's serious about progressing fast then it's completely justified that they remove you for that.
I don't understand why, but some people take clearing the same raid with ease the 30th time in a row still very seriously. It really baffles me.
My guild is constantly struggling to get a full raid and finding new raiders. And when we then find someone with a non-meta spec (like moonkin or ret Pala) who are looking for a guild to raid with, my guild doesn't even consider it for a single second. They rather run bwl with 30 people, because apparently "meme specs aren't good enough"
They claimed to not be a serious raiding guild
@@swarles354 i would do the same, imagine giving itemes to ret pala when you have 37252826 warriors in raid
when TBC classic rolls out, all these insane children who demand 10 min raids will mostly move on.
If wow was actively developed it would be an entirely different beast where devs interacted with rather than spoke to the players.
Judas Iscariot Private servers would buff these bosses. Oh yeah and AV had 100 changes to make it just like retails. It just seems like Blizzard is being so half ass purposefully to try to convert classic lovers to retail.
If we had the old developers, the game would not be in the current state
Great video
Does any of the old developers still work for blizzard or did they fire them all?
@@xdesertx i think most of them left Blizz a while ago, change of the old guard if you like
And considering the current environment, with Activision breathing on their necks and the low salaries, no sane person would tolerate that for +15 years
@@rurounigato Pretty sure the devs have decent salaries though. Even with the "report" that came out recently, it really just showed that they underpaid support staff and such. Besides, changing jobs is just kind of the norm, so anyone who stays at Blizzard does it simply because they like the company. Going back and forth between different companies is a much more effective way of raising your salary.
The demand was no changes
@@K0bbii yeah, but ppl are playing so different right now compared yo 2005/2006 that the game needs ajustments
Hey man you're really grinding out some great videos nice work
Probably your best video yet, thank you for sharing your thoughts and making it.
I think that if Classic was being developped today, a lot of issues the game has wouldn't have been there in the first place.
Take the debuff cap, that wouldn't have been a thing since it was put in purely for technical reasons.
Class balance is mainly caused by things being developped in isolation to eachother. Like they explained for world buffs, they just had people do stuff on their own. I don't think that lack of oversight would be present in a modern team. If they knew they'd have content with 40 people and only 8 then 16 debuff slots as the main focus of the game, they wouldn't have given warlocks that many dots and debuffs. Same for warrior bleed, rogue poison dots.
Lots of specs are "bad" due to lack of gear support or bad gear scaling. It's something they fixed immediately in TBC with gear tokens and spec-based tier sets.
Also with logging sites being a thing and the optimisation culture of current gaming, the devs would tweak the numbers to buff the specs that need it and nerf others in a timely fashion.
Back to world buffs and consumables for a bit. I think they would keep world buffs because they're kinda neat. Even in the current game you still find lots of small buffs out in the world when questing or gathering. How they'd keep them in check? Probably a mix of purging the bigger ones when you enter a raid and reducing the duration of the smaller ones like songflower. If it's a 15 min buff, it's still good when you're questing in the zone, but it's not usable to push parses and if players start to use locks to teleport people to refresh those, they'd just add it to the purge list.
Consumables would just get the battle / guardian elixir treatment and maybe they'd implement the 1 pot per fight limit they put in in later expansions.
They'd also let go of design philosophies that work on paper but not in reality.
Like the hybrid tax (which isn't even implemented properly since warriors don't pay it) or classes performing much worse due to buffing the raid in one way or another.
Thing is, output difference being compensated by the raid dps they provide through buffs is a great idea that actually works... In FFXIV. But in that game, raids are 8-man content and you have strict raid compositions with always 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps with one dps of each kind (melee, ranged, caster). When you have 40 raid slots with no other limitation, well, just look at classic raid comps.
I'll add that this philosophy comes from old tabletop RPGs like D&D where parties are much smaller too.
For PvP, I think they would have used a ranked mode like we see in virtually every single multiplayer game these days. From the get-go, we would have had casual mode BGs where you'd just earn rep for that BG and is intended to be played for fun, and ranked BGs with an MMR system for matchmaking and a further split between solo queues and premade queues. You'd gain rep in ranked and they might as well just rip the league system we see in so many games. Basically making it about how well you can play the game instead of how much of it you can play.
Now, AoE farming might not be nerfed, they might just make it harder to perform by replacing some mobs by ranged ones or giving death-grip like abilities to some mobs. Imagine if every third ZF zombie was an archer and every fifth zombie was a caster with a slow? Suddenly it becomes much harder to pull off while barely affecting groups clearing the dungeon normally. Hell, it makes the dungeon more fun to run thanks to more mob diversity.
Also, current day pathing might be far less abusable.
“ Like the hybrid tax (which isn't even implemented properly since warriors don't pay it)”
Um. Warriors don’t pay it because they are not a hybrid class.
Warriors are a hybrid class tank/dps = hybrid
WARRIORS ARNT A HYBRID CLASS 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Fuck yeah look at hybrid mage with 3 different dps specs 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
The confusion is from the fact that in the modern game each specialization is taken outright, so a "hybrid" is one that can perform more than one role by spec swapping.
In classic, hybrid means you have both defensive and healing capabilities, so druid, shaman and paladin. Priests dont pay the tax because they lack the defensive abilities the others have(yes disc was an aborted tank spec just like enhancement but it was scaled back whereas enhance was just....weird.) Since all classes come with all base level skills other than those deep in talent trees, the danger was of having a class that would have extreme survivability along with good healing and good damage, so they scaled each one of those items back a notch which in the end made those classes much weaker comparatively at a single role. Its a tricky thing because with the way they were unaware of balance back then, had they not done so we would be playing a hybrid-only meta nowadays.
So, no matter how many emoji's you spam at people(which makes you look like an asshole, not them btw) its not that they're "wrong" just that they have a decade of knowledge related to a different system interfering with their perception.
I’d like a video of what class changes should happen in wow classic 1.12! This will be my first and probably only request for wow classic content! Thank you! 🙂
Premades in BG are fine, the Honor Ranking system is what needs to go. Something small like removing the honor decay and reworking how much ranking point you can gain at once would remove so much toxicity from this part of the game.
Eh, as a person who did a fair amount of PvP back in Vanilla, the current BG scene is nothing like it once was. FAPs, LIPs, Sappers, Grenades, and other consumes were rarely if ever used. Hell even Noggenfogger to slow fall down was really rare. Premades are pretty awful to anyone looking to casually PvP at all. The power gap between premades that use consumes against other premades is also pretty pronounced. That said, I do agree that if they just removed decay alone PvP would be much more bearable. Ranking has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with time spent. It would be nice to know that your progress wasn't lost if you stopped for awhile.
I only just got around to listening to the latest episode of the Good Morning Azeroth podcast and they shared the opinion that "no changes" attitude needs to go, and balancing/hotfixing needs to be more active. They even went as far as to say instead of dumping patch 2.4 they should start with 2.1 so the content is actually challenging.
Great video WillE!!! I don't like PvE in WoW classic. I'm generally fairly independant (ie I don't like people, especially some online), hate buff and consumes req., and I prefer PvP. However, PvP in WoW classic is incredibly frustrating, with alliance unable to win an Alterac Valley and facing constant premades in AB and WsG. Blizzard made it impossible to do AV premades (which I consider the best time I've had in classic), so I would hope they could do the same for AB and WsG.
I think 1 thing u forgot which is worth mentioning is the multiboxing.. some restritctions, somehow to prevent 1 player from being able to wipe most content on his own
i love fishing with multiple accounts, since fishing in classic is super slow, is great to have multiple guys fishing at the same time, just need to be clicking from 1 screen to another from time to time while watching anime.
By multiboxing i think more in the case of whatever exceeds a 5-man party ;)
I think the smaller scale stuff can be ok, when you see someone running about with like 20 characters though, thats crossing the line
@WillE To some extend, yeah. But i dont like it when they are able to make a 2-5 man group and just solo most 5-10 man dung content etc, its an mmo that fosters for grouping up and interact with eachother instead of
1 man just filing all the roles on his own and are able to complete and achieve content/rewards not originally availble for 1 person.
i enjoy getting a handfull of worldbuffs even for zg because i've had absolute aweful weapon drop luck and im still rocking a 52 blue on my mh, it makes up the damage gap so long as i don't mess up my rotation
Agree 100%.. I wish there was a vanilla wow with nerfed consumables and removed world buffs.. that would be way closer to the original experience at least, that’s for sure.
Totally agree. Classic without Wbuffs, nerfed consumes and slightly tweaked class balance would be perfect :)
I feel like consumables stacking isn't bad, notably with the flasks for exemple, but them being so strong is. It let's every player do whatever preparation they want for raids, each at their own level. It shouldn't be a significant buff though, not as much as it is right now, but still a bit of a power boost to reward investment in the game.
I'm pretty new to WoW and hardly understand anything you talk about since I also just play retail, but I really enjoy watching just because of you really look into sources, and of course your cool voice
Pretty funny hearing that from Ion, given all the fucking around groups need to do to be able to clear mythic raids on retail.
Mythic is supposed to be hard as nails and only for the most dedicated, and there is a hard cap on consumables in retail. How does it compare?
Back in vanilla when this was introduced, 40man was the only way to play the game, Ion is part of the reason that we has 10n through 25M allowing for different levels of play
I chain poped flask of wisdoms for the meme and i love how big its become
I would disagree on the thought on premades in PvP - the focus would instead need to be on the honor system not being absolute garbage, fighting your own faction more than the other.
You're right--this is the heart of the issue right here!
honor system is revamped in tbc, simple fix for premades would be more useful
@@Quitarstudent It no longer fulfill the same role as honor system did in vanilla. Arena does.
Yeah ive thought for a long time now the ranking system is garbo, but how do you phase it out mid expansion though? Thats the tricky bit
@@WillEmmo Well, one of the things they could do would be to reduce honor decay to 10% per week while simultaneously getting rid of premades larger than a single group.
I get that they wanted the top PvP tier to be really exclusive; but I think they need to dial that back and simply accept a larger percentage of people at max rank.
Premade vs premade is the most fun I've had playing wow tbh dude. Mage farming is great fun and a nice way to challenge yourself
Mage farming needs to go there aoe needs a 4 target limit aswell.
As a warrior trying to level its sucks already then a mage shows up. I just go why do I try. Mage comes aoe all the mobs. I finally kill my one guy. Try to group with mage and they decline because they don't want to lose their exp..... so a quest take 3 or 4 times as long because the mage keeps aoeing all the mobs and won't party with me for 5 mins cuz his exp.
I don't even play Classic but I love watching these videos.
Imagine a classic that is continued to be developed, raids after nax, new bg's, new abilities etc
Man that'd be crazy. Imagine if it brought back the demoms and stuff from Warcraft 3, that'd be awesome! I hope we get to see Illidan in WoW at some point
Wow, this really killed my drive to raid.
Why? Just raid without consumables except some mana/hp pots and food buff.
@@rudy1999 Specifically, we were addressing the horrible state of min/max madness and guilds REQUIRING such things before they'll allow you to set food into a raid with them. It's widespread. You can't just "make a choice not to do it." Being an MMO makes everyone and everything interconnected. There's no "play the game how you like" if you want to interact with others at all, because other players dictate the parameters and boundaries under which you can realistically do that.
He's completely correct, too -- the encounters were balanced under the assumption that you weren't going to stack 100% of these buffs 100% of the time (I don't even understand what's so fun about trivializing the content), so it's utterly ridiculous for all these guilds to get pissy about requiring them. It's really tough to find a raiding guild that will be reasonable about it anymore. He's also correct in that it's not even NEEDED, so why the crap-elitest attitude about it?
That blue lettering of vanilla Dev on the thumb nail is Playing Tricks on my brain it looks like it's sunken into the picture but at the same time it also looks like it pops out at me
Great video. Agree on all points.
I also don't understand that World buffs are mandatory when we kill C'thun without world buffs
AQ40 is even being pugged
Which server is this? Im so sick of mine
They're "mandatory", as in, made so by the min/maxxing raid leader
@@HbVki have you looked at rp servers? grobb has tons of guilds on both sides clearing content with very little care about meta even some race locked guilds are clearing out raids. sure they're not doing it fast but i guarantee you were having a good deal more fun with it.
Suuuuuuuuuure.
@@SD78 Grob was a great server. And I was in a great guild. I'm sure it still is, but I quit the game a while back.
We had ele shaman, enh shaman, a boomkin, a feral druid commonly raiding.
Those 5 metas are the reason I stopped playing two weeks after playing the game again. I wanted to play the game, not turn it into a chore. Also, I'm not going to pay $15 a month for a 16 year old game that isn't actively developed and is left with such glaring issues that it turns what used to be a fun thing to do into a min-max competition.
Here are a few ideas on how to fix the broken metas in the game:
1 World Buffs - Make the timer continue whether you're logged in or logged out. It still gives you a nice boost, especially for leveling, but you're not going to be able to coordinate to have them all going at once. Alternatively, they could make it so the buffs don't stack.
2 Consumables - Increase the cooldown of using another consumable or make it so they do not stack
3 Mage AoE - Limit the number of targets AoE will hit (like what happened in TBC) or put monsters on a leash in the dungeons.
4 Premades - Limit the number of premade players in each BG, or create a separate queue
5 Class Balance - Assign a few developers to implement balance changes
All of this YES! When classic WoW starts the cycle again from Wrath, ALL of these changes should be implemented! Then we'd have an ACTUAL Vanilla Experience as it was then.
Class Balance is such an issue. People have been blaming "meme" spec players for their desire to play a class clearly designed to be played rather than blaming Blizzard for the lack of balance, this is clearly upside down.
don't hate the player, hate the game xD
World buffs and consumables add more layers to the gameplay. I'd buff them by making them non-dispellable and persisting through pvp-related death.
Pretty sure the first thing that would get fixed is the AV map balance issues, there is no reason any dev would not be racing to fix a balance issue if the map was causing an 80% winrate, let alone the 95-99% winrate horde currently have in AV due to massive map advantages.
i personaly like games that have Potion´s and other buffs/prepirations you can make helps you get stronger. I always play the Alchemist skill tree in Witcher 3 and i love it . Witcher 3 is the best example of how it chould/should be in general .
I feel like it should have a middle ground. If you're undergeared, then the buffs and consumes should bring you up to par, but if you're overgeared then it's just speedrunning at that point.
NO CHANGES
ok maybe some changes
CHANGE EVERYTHING
Dont expect blizzard to change anything regarding classic. For them its just a cash cow requiring minimal resources keeping their subscription count up. If they were trying to "balance" classes, pvp, consumeables, world buffs, aoe farming etc they would upset 60%+ of their playerbase. Literally noone cares wheter ret paladins or moonkins are rocking the meters. Players expect to bypass 90% of the raid mechanics by using buffs/consumeables. Tons of people are willing to pay mages their gold to level another twink. Predictability is one of the reasons so many people hang on to the game. Classic started with "#nochanges" and should end right there.
You say “literally noone cares wheter ret paladins or moonkins are rocking the meters” yet here i am struggling to find a guild for the easiest content ever in game. The game isnt the problem, its the players that are really toxic all around for every aspect of the game.
Premades may be a problem in WSG and AB but not in AV any more. AV itself is the problem. In its current state it's a 99% Horde win ratio (not even exaggerating) where you can count the overall wins of Alliance raids across a whole region on 1 hand per day.
This is both to glaring advantages for Horde (Horde NPCs being stronger, Terrain favoring Horde both in offence and defence) and due to how alliance players just mostly want to get exalted with Stormpike guard and then never come back, starting to do it as soon as they can enter (lvl 51), not having an epic mount etc while you face fully geared all-100% mount horde rankers who need to take any opportunity to squeeze out the last bit of honor out of every BG pop due to their huge waiting times (1h and more).
Also Blizzard scrambling AV for players queuing at the same time is a huge difference to how it worked in vanilla.
Easy fix for World Buffs is simply make them not function in Raids. Also, debuff slot caps I think would have been the first to go. Rebalance the bosses for more or less unlimited debuff slots.
Blizzard have simply dumped a version of classic on us and left it with no development and nothing new. They have lazily given us a game that requires them to do vitually nothing to maintain and update.. I would have prefered classic with a whole new line of development instead of following the TBC path to eventually become retail again.
This is what I wanted. An alternative history/timeline thing. Say in TBC we team up with Illidan to beat Kiljaeden instead of killing Illidan. Then for Wrath, say Illidan succeeds in using the eye to kill the LK, then we have to deal with the scourge gone wild. Multiple paths to take, instead we get the most basic thing ever. Something weve already had and requiring the minimum effort on Activisions part. Oh well.
I don't think you realize how many people playing classic have never played vanilla before. I doubt blizz wants to avoid doing things people actually want with their shareholders breathing down their necks about their quarterly statements. People wanted vanilla wow, ZERO changes and so they cant split the demand to stir up a quarterly disaster...they also offered the idea of classic + later on. So hopefully both sides win in time.
dude dont blame blizzard on this its their player base who requested no changes
While i do enjoy dressing down blizzard, it's a little unfair to say they were lazy and just dumped an unmodified classic on us. unmodified classic is what people wanted - there was a very vocal amount of the players saying no changes means no changes. in a lot of cases this even extended to hardware limitations like debuff slots (though not always) - i seem to remember blizzard wanting to change a few things to modernise the game but the crowd was not having it.
@@Hellothere-lk7xi Yes many people did ask for no changes. The reason they did is because they didnt trust Activision to actually make the correct ones. So instead they wanted something that at minimum "used" to be good.
At the same time, even if they gave us Classic and didnt change it because we asked for it, that still doesnt mean that an unaltered Classic is the easiest thing for them to do. It required the least amount of work to make, least amount of maintenance, and since they arent going to change/improve anything until TBC Classic, its all easy money for them.
They knew they needed more servers at launch, they knew layering wasnt an answer it was a bandaid. In fact, their solution was for layering to eventually not be needed because enough people would quit. Hows that for fucking lazy. Instead of actually solving the problem and spend money, we will wait until enough people quit playing Classic, and hopefully retain enough on Retail to turn a profit.
my greatest wish for classic is that they go the osrs route and actively develop the mmo
You have more faith in the current dev team than most.
Why would they when retail is still the largest MMO in the business? OSRS only exists because Runescape3 was basically dead.
@@VeeDubBeetle You are saying why sell diet Mt Dew when people still are buying regular Mt Dew? Ummmmm that doesn't work lol. Why make a sequel when people still buy the original DVDs and mech? They could make more money, in case you didn't get the point.
That's a pretty bad take. Classic WoW was never pitched as an MMO that was going to be developed alongside retail. They clearly reiterated all the actual dev focus was still on retail. Classic was created as a tourist attraction and something to fill in gaps between retail patches. They aren't going to waste dev budget on classic when they can just release TBC classic and make just as much money.
Wille I have tons of friends who quit simply because they played classic just for PvP and the premades ruined it for them so they quit. Can u please bring up the topic of premades in battlegrounds more often? I’d like blizzard to see the video it needs to be brought to their attention by someone higher up like you. Ty
Blizzard encourages player interaction and playing with each other. They obv know about premades and the trials and tribulations of solo-queing.
Blizzard is aware of the problem but don't care enough to do anything about it. It is not some conscious design decision, it's just how pvp was designed back then. My advice: if you like mmo pvp, look elsewhere
I could care less about the neckbeardiness of the world buff meta, but the pvp needs a change. Really wish they just made it different so badly. Also the last point you made in the video never occurred to me. Such a great point 👏
People tend to forget that not only game itself counts, but also the mindset of the players. Our view on video gaming was different than it is now. So overall, Vanilla then was something completely different than Vanilla now. It's like comparing having sex for the first time, and after twenty years of marriage.
Hey WillE! I know about 5 months ago you did a video on "is it too late to start classic?" Can you do a video on if its worth it to start playing classic wow at this point in August? Most people can't answer these questions specifically. The questions are: Is it too late to start leveling? Which servers are best for leveling? Can I level soon enough to experience end game content? Which servers are best for experiencing end game fore newer players? Can I still experience the beginning content of the end game? Will guilds still be interested in me? DPS, healers, tanks? Is it worth it at this point, or should I casually level a player for TBC classic release? Thanks!
Don’t really need a whole video for this. All the content is available and playable, if you check server pops you can easily find an active server for the faction you want. There are regular pugs for early raids and mc/ony/zg are very easy to do. Your character will likely transfer to tbc so even if you are a slow leveler you could have a character ready to go for tbc. I would say that with roughly 200-300 hours played you could have a raid ready level 60, depending on your class.
@@Arcade13 200-300 hours played? What are you supposed to do with all that time?
cch oh I’m sorry I forgot brand new players level with maximum efficiency and set world records, you’re right he’ll be 60 in 3 days
Having never played vanilla, and enjoying classic I think:
Nerf world buffs and nerf xp with level 60's in group, consumes can be op ya but collecting crafting them etc it a legit part of game play. I know most people want vanilla wow and don't fuck with it however I think tho that changing the way world buffs work is still closer to original than buff stacking every raid and not being able to log into the game till raid time is ridiculous. Mabye they could put that in place right before naxxx. Another thing they should do is just ask the players!! Put a poll on login page asking what people want sometimes.
All other classes should've been brought down to the same level of effectiveness as Warriors in terms of multi-mob farming or instancefarming.
Flasks are outrageously OP, but also remember that black lotus were BoP and the flasks did not persist through death until the 1.7 patch. Those changes are what made them broken.
The most fun I've had in the game was learning how to do ZG 1 pull. I started early before any videos and such so had to learn it myself. Died hundreds of times, but got it. Had so much fun learning it though and theory crafting to figure it all out. And yea you can do the witches with crocs if you get the right roll, but not really tigers. Tigers take forever to kill.
Yes, world buffs really do help curtain people get over the line, and curtain guilds too
Others: Mages can solo entire instances, its not fair!
Mage: haha blizzard go brrrr
@mdx It's more like that aoe farming is an extremely easy way of farming gold. That said, everyone can level as many mages as they want and for me, although not quite as efficient, you can solo instances with a warlock too.
I really hope that a modern dev team would nerf diamond flask scaling off +healing. Really frustrating that the meta right now demands warriors gather healing gear. Warriors are already great in classic, they don't need a broken trinket from their level 50 class quest.
I don't think blizz can ever or should ever do actual nerfs or buffs to classes or world buffs since they were part of the game. Remember the game has to be preserved its not an active "in development" game its suppose to be a kinda of time capsule.
I would do a few changes that don't change the game fundamentally but would fix a bunch of problems.
1. get rid of spell batching and use the new system
2. remove melee leeway
3. use modern AI path finding for mobs.
Having played the game since December 28, 2004 I found that the game was a bit harder in vanilla, when classic came out I did play it. I made it to 60 on a frost mage and a warrior, did Molten Core and BWL both and thought both were easier to play compared to vanilla. Not only due to the buffs, but also due to the add-ons that we are now allowed to use, in vanilla getting caught with an add-on was an insta-ban for your entire account. So having add-ons in classic is also a big part of people having an easier time in classic than in vanilla, take away all the add-ons and start deleting peoples toons that get caught with them and see how people fare in the raids then. Also with the flasks, the drop rate of black lotus should be lowered quite a bit, as an herbalist/alchemist, it would take me close to 30 hours a week of grinding herbs in a week just to get enough herbs to make flasks for the guild to raid with in vanilla.
What? Insta-ban for using addons? You're going to need some actual citation for that claim because I'm pretty sure it's bullshit. There was literally an addons button in the game menu...
Just wanted to say I LOVE your content WillE! 😊❤
They've said before they didn't get rid of world buffs because they thought they were overpowered, they did it so guilds wouldn't feel forced to go back and farm old content.
Also I think the philosophy of raid consumes just changed when they realized that they were the more casual MMO which is what they set out to do in the first place. Personally I think that the amount of power you gain from putting in the extra effort actually adds to the game.
Also the philosophy of class balance I think is completely backwards now. The direction they went was the every class was good at everything they could do. Whereas in classic classes were good at one thing and could usually be serviceable at another. When you pick a priest you should know that you're picking a healer. When you play a druid you should know that you're playing a healer. When you're playing a warrior you should know that you're going to be a tank. I think that instead of every class being good at everything making sure that every class is on par with the best for their niche would make the game more rewarding and fun.
Can't believe it has been almost a year. Wish in one sense that it was developed in a bit since there has been changes and mechanics like layering etc. Mages needs to be nerfed, world buffs nerfed and out-dated mechanics like those still in the game due to us having bad internet when vanilla was originally launched.
honestly this is why ive never been a fan of how loud the no changes crowd was (and still is to some degree). weve already had changes just because the game runs on a modern system now, and i dont think it would have made the game The Worst Thing Ever if the devs were allowed to tweak some things still
i still love classic for what it is but man, some of these things, lol
It has to do with trusting Blizzard to make the _right_ Changes.
The Majority of the Playerbase does not, rightfully so if you ask me.
@@alexander1055 i mean like, yeah, sure, but that wasnt the core of my comment. my gripes are with the crowd that is loudly and vehemently anti-change no matter what. tweaking things to be a little more balanced =/= outright changes. i dont see how thats any different than nerfing extreme farms or changing the spawn of lotus in felwood
@@KiryuuYoshiya and I just explained why this Crowd is so vehemently against Change.
@@alexander1055 yeah and i really didnt ask because that wasnt the point of my comment lol
i think the community forces blizzard to not act on any of these issues, could you imagine the backlash on the forums if suddenly they introduced an AoE cap?
I see your point. In my opinion, the biggest problem in this classic was layering. It destroyed the economy of the game. The second one is that they decided to roll out the nerfed version of the game, resulting in this easy content. They should have released harder dungeons/raids. It would also prolong the longevity of the game and they wouldn't have to release all the patches and raids so much faster. That being said, me as a 32yo old man now with a child of my own and wife wouldn't be able to follow up the countless hours of farming and countless hours of raiding(considering that MC would take many wipes and many hours to complete as I remember it from vanilla). I still do think that harder raid and harder game would be a greater more epic adventure and would minimize the problem with the world buffs and consumables, because you would definitely need them to kill the bosses. Also, killing bosses would again feel rewarding and epic loot would be a thing to be proud of. Now, everybody wield legendarys and its ridiculous. Kinda feels like retail tbh.
If they didn't use layering, you would've had to wait for literal hours to kill a quest mob because hundreds of players would be waiting for it to respawn.
@@TripleR3D Then you would have to roll on a less populated server or wait. It really isn't an excuse and the result is devastating for the game.
while i agree with what you have said, i believe community very strongly cried out for no changes but now that they see the game is sooo utterly broken and unfair to what they remember it being they want it changed. So I mean like u got what u asked for in a sense unbalanced classes, people large scale multiboxing, botting, griefing , min-maxing everything. its what u asked and signed up for when everyone kept saying no changes to the game they loved in the past
No one asked for a broken game.
People wanted #nochanges and instead got #badchanges.
Would have been different if blizzard proposed some needed changes right off the bat, but they never intended to do anything.
there where only a couple of times back then that I managed to get into a raid with song flower, dragon slayer and DM buffs active along with potions, scrolls, food, Ext. But when I did, I'd top the charts in DPS *_and_* healing with my enhance shaman! Until the buffs dropped of course. But it was a lot of fun while they lasted, though managing aggro became a lot trickier.
Classic pve is a bit like having LFR as the only difficulty option.
and yet people DEMAND every buff and consumable possible to take part...
@Phily T that would fix the boosting meta and more people would do dungeons normally, but that would bring chaos from the nochanges people
@Phily T keep the game as it is with all the problems end of story, We all know that blizzard well just make way it worst if they try to do anything to classic. All the good devs that know how to make the game from 2004 to 2011 work are gone.
Just like the guy above me said, even with EVERY raid being piss easy, MOST (and i swear i mean mooooossst!) guilds REQUIRE u to do the most boring and annoying things to be min-maxed, one week u slack and now ur raid spot isnt stable.
@Phily T I played on private servers and they actually did thing to prevent exploits unlike blizzard. If anything its way worse on official servers.
imagine if Classic players experienced the Vanilla difficulty = without all these patches and imetization that never existed in Vanilla...i bet they would be amazed
Faster to fly to Sentinel Hill and ride to the island than it is to fly to Booty Bay.
Its like taking your sports car 45 seconds down the street to work, its just an ego thing
well.. then i guess he wasnt that far off with ''you think you want it, but you dont really..''
I don't think any of these really are the problem (although top tier raidings guilds knew in vanilla that world buffs were insane): the problem is the min-max, optimisation culture that's been brought to Classic from private servers. Hell, on my server, which is RP-PvP, we fight our own faction more than the opposing because of world bosses, loot, buffs etc, just to get an edge (or something, I am not sure why some guilds grief others of the same faction).
Had Vanilla been developed today, the only difference I think is that Blizzard would've probably been more active in class balance, as well as putting limits on buffs. Of course, had vanilla been developed today, it wouldn't have looked at all like this. Engineering would likely have been a class of its own (goblin/gnome alchemist/tinkerer), for one.
I wish there was better class balance. They could have atleast added alternate tier sets for the Paladins, Priests, Shammys and Druids. Not all of them just healers. Trying to gear up a Shadow Priest blows, you are rolling against Mages and Warlocks for the majority of the gear and sometimes the healers too (Lok'amir il Romathis for example) and they are considered more important so the poor SP is right at the back of the que. I've got no chance of ever getting Neltharion's Tear.
they added that... in the next expansion called "The Burning Crusade", which made all the classes relevant and you could actually play the spec you like and not the spec you had to. sounds unreal, doesn't it?
I was not a huge fan of your videos when you started out, but you have really grown on me, thanks for quality content!
Classic+ needs to be a thing. If only Blizzard actually listened to the community...
A lot of the issues of Vanilla were probably pushed off to be fixed with TBC once it was decided to make an expansion for the game. That probably happened quite early, possibly before players even got to AQ.
That and people who played back then is totally different. A lot of these problems were not so glaring back in original vanilla. They already had the expansion planned very early as well if you watch the old Wow exploration videos with some of the tbc zones were in the game just not finished.
Yeah, consumes and world buffs would have been nerfd. I remember it took halfway through TBC to balance that, but if blizzard made a Classic+, the consumes and crafting would be the first thing to change. Hunters would get a buff to their pve rotation, and warriors would get a nerf bat.
TBC addressed many of the class issues for sure but more importantly it addressed the guild issues and the 5 man content issues Vanilla is/was plagued with. TBC wasn't perfect but it fixed a great many of the problems vanilla WoW faces.
World buffs / DM buffs are only melee AP because of the balance for hunter PvP. Who knows how true this is.
Would 8-2 be a Barcelona fan right now
Barca needed it to finally clean house. They have been stacking up attackers that don't fit their attack instead of defenders they DESPERATELY need. Messi has two more years - tops... I hope they can build one more winner before he retires
I'm pretty sure that is what everybody would like, if Blizzard just brings out Vanilla with sayed changes like nerfed WB, better class balance and classic + content
Soooo... Maybe they should add a tool that makes finding a party easier? Or what about different raid difficulties, that be great! And maybe a system where you can actually grind for better gear and more power?
Ohh, wait that's Retail. If you want a mmo where most of those issues are fixed, go play retail. Like Blizzard said, you think you want it...
@@ijustownyouall why would anyone be playing retail? no idea why you even mentioned that here knowing that TBC is coming out in 6-8 months or so, which fixed all of the issues he said in his comment. vanilla was never the reason why classic petition succeeded and why we actually have classic servers - it was all the communities from TBC and WOTLK that made it happen and you'll see how many die hard fans will remain on the vanilla servers once TBC launches. i suspect that over 90% of playerbase will move to TBC and won't think even for a second to go back to vanilla, even if they released fresh vanilla servers. the difference in game quality is just that huge... and WOTLK playerbase is by far the largest one in the private server community and far more people still play WOTLK (and TBC) than people playing classic and retail combined. not because the game is free that way, but because these games are just that much better.
I don't mind world buffs. No one forces anyone to do it. The content is very doable without and more annoying with someties when you lose them. And your doing MC for like 10months they are just helpful to get that shit done easier.
Also there is NOTHING wrong with consumables. I like the fact this is an actualy RPG where potions actually have an effect. If you're spending 200g a pop for ur pots I'd say you EARNED a power spike.
Wouldn't a better balance of classes be static? Why would perpetual nerfs and buffs be better?