How NOT to FIRE HARDEN a Primitive Bow!
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2024
- Following up on the previous video where we how to build a primitive whitewood survival bow from a live tree in under 24 hours, this video will take it one step further and fire harden the bow to improve performance and resistance to moisture problems. I've been building selfbows for a long time but this is the first time I've ever tried to fire harden a bow. I made plenty of mistakes trying to figure it out and left all that in the video so anyone that wants to incorporate this into their bow building might learn from them. Despite the mess ups, this little primitive elm flat bow turned out nice. It has no string follow at all and actually springs back to several inches of backset when unstrung. This is by far the best method I've ever seen for making a high performance bush bow in a survival situation. I'd feel very confident bow hunting big game with this bow. When it comes to survival skills, bushcraft, etc., this is definitely something you'll want to practice.
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I’m loving this. I just fire hardened a hickory sapling bow April and it’s looking good so far. Tillering it tomorrow! Also new to me is 2fletch 5” feathers left helical arrows that fly amazingly fast and accurate! I’m 71years young and still learning!!
The fire hardening process really does change the way those white wood bows perform. When I teamed up with Thad and Keith, I was intrigued but unsure of how well it would work. But after seeing and shooting Keith's bows, I'm convinced more than ever. It's a game changer for sure. Once our DVD got out and people started doing it, we've gotten a LOT of positive feedback. Those bows are FAST, and they're real killers when it comes to hunting weapons. I'm gonna take one on an epic hunting adventure soon, and I'll be filming the entire thing, so stay tuned!
Looking forward to it, Billy. I hate North GA Knap-in was canceled this year Do you plan to be there next year?
@@jk07ist Yeah I was bummed it got cancelled too. I sure hope they start it back up next year. If they put it on, I'll definitely be there. I talked to the guy who sets it up and he's looking to pass the torch to someone else. I know it's a lot of work to spearhead the whole thing. hopefully they can keep it going.
Where you been Billy. I always like your advice. Your previous videos left a permanent impression on me. Thanks. I still see your dad trying to help you get that arrow out of the tree. My dad's passing ,crushed me. Thanks mister.
Nice, please make you the sudbury eastern woodland powathan bow, and the plains indian short bow!❤
I hope to see more fire hardened white wood bows on your channel in the future! very high quality content, keep it up!
I remember watching Mick grewcock toast the belly of a seasoned elm stave. He did it with a heat gun. And it changed the performance and gave it a dark finish.
I LOVE that you keep the real-world problems in the video, like at @11:30
Great job Clay of venturing out into the mystery of this thing called fire hardening.
Found your channel yesterday, and I'm ADDICTED! Great content man
Welcome aboard!
Props to you for giving credit to Keith and Thad.
Good dudes!
@@clayhayeshunter do you think you could fire-hardened with a heat gun
@@chrisedwards9156 no a heat gun just won't do it
I love what you are doing. I think a video of you teaching your boys to build a bow where all three of you build a separate Bow together and then shoot and hunt together with would absolutely go viral.
It was great watching you struggle through this process. When I did this I had a thermometer to constantly check the heat to make sure it was under 300 degrees Fahrenheit. It was a lot harder to keep it at the right temperature than I anticipated. Definitely a skill to develop,
Yep, definitely a learning experience
gotta love it! a real game changer for those of us that love to build bows like this. a game changer in so many ways too. I thought that you made this video to make some of us feel better lol.
love the idea of fire hardening white woods for bows. I have access to a lot of hickory but don't really have any Osage around me. this gives me the ability to make a good bow out of wood I can collect myself. Definitely looking forward to the coming videos!
I got to say I am impressed by his builds. This and the fishing pole he made have made me subscribble.
Thanks
“Cow messing with the camera”, you crack me up Clay😅
So cool that you show your failure, most bowyer don't show them, wich make beginer think that they are incapable, that's what makes the master
Great videos Clay. I’m so happy you’re experimenting and succeeding with this!
Just a thought on keeping a more consistent temperature, have a secondary fire going to provide coals to top up the pit as those coals cool.
Can't wait to try this myself for my first bow
How'd it go?
I've been apprehensive of experimenting too much with wooden bows, because of the humidity around here. This video gives me hope!
Looking forward to more videos on fire hardening. Love from India.
Thanks
Fire hardening makes the bows almost impervious to moisture and they are unaffected by humidity. It locks them into high performing weapons permanently.
Hello Clay, I learned how to build Osage bows from your videos years ago. I have making these fire hardened hickory bows for several months now. I've had 2 failures (over cooked spots broke) but several successes. Very impressive technique for sure! Talking with Keith Shannon via email, he suggested I contour the bottom of the fire pit to match the contour of the reflexed form. This works great and you get a more even cook.
Great idea
Thanks for this series of videos Clay. I always learn a lot watching those. I just got to see the latest videos of those Keith and Thad dudes. They released a video 3 days ago where they make fire hardened bow from a living hickory tree in less than 12h. That's impressive and very inspiring. That's literally reinventing the wheel.
keep on trying and filming. learning right along with you. Great job.
Will do!
I watched this video last year and today again and now I am going to cut toon tree for bow build and fire drying and fire hardening .. i am beginner ..
Once who come to your channel thats become your life time subscriber as well Student .I wait all the time for your video since I subscribed you(Harshit India)
Super impressed and inspired! Started today on building a fire hardened bow, after watching this. I'm trying it on the most unlikely wood you could imagine- a piece of shrub oak I cut down myself. Fingers crossed!🤞
Have fun!
Hola te estoy biendo de Argentina soy Lalo muy buenos esos Arcos me gustan asi de madera buena y de esa forma bien indio de esa forma por eso te miro un abrazo te felicito
🙂 amazing.thaks for the lesson sir
When building guitars the wood should ideally be stored in a barn for 20 years to season it. Nowadays, however, they usually kiln dry it.
Great video Clay. Can't wait to see more.
Thanks much
Hey man...aren't you the dud that's killed every big game animal in the North American record books with flint points??
Yeah!! You are that guy! I know you!! You're famous!!
@@primitivepathways Hahaha
@@primitivepathways Hey man.... I know you!!! Aren't you the dud that killed the first Boone and Crockett dragon fly??? You're famous too!!
I've been heat treating bows for a few years now. There was a guy called primitive Tim who had a series on hickory bows in Florida
I made a fire hardened hickory bow and it is awesome
Cool
Thank you for posting this video. I’ve been on the fence about buying the fire hardening video. You made up my mind. I’ve gotten where I really like working with elm saplings and heat treating the belly. This seems like it would make a good thing better.
Absolutely!
Nice video and an interesting introduction to fire hardening. I like that you didn't edit out the accidental over charring. I also really like the curious cows! especially the calf peaking out from behind the door at about 19:20 or so. :D
Yep, I wanted to show some of the real problems you might face.
Keith, Thad and Billy really rediscovered something amazing here. Ive made several fire hardened bows. The performance and benefits are definitely worth struggling through the learning curve to reap the benefits of this process. Thanks for putting up some videoes on fire hardening Clay. Will be looking forward to them for sure! I did some experiments with honey suckle and had some violent bow explosions. I think every type of wood will respond differently...
Have you tried red oak? If so did it benefit from it?
I haven't tried red oak and probably wont. My experience with red oak is that it tends to be more dry and brittle. I personally wont try it but you never know. I have made a couple fire hardened black locust bows and had great success. I even sinew backed a BL short plains bow. So far it hasn't had any belly problems and shoots super fast. The fire hardening strengthens the belly so much that it compensates for the compression issues that BL usually has. Even with the sinew adding more tension! Its fun to experiment. This process is a definite game changer.
Yeah some woods can't handle it as much as others. Hickory and elm are what we have in Georgia and they seem to respond the best, though sweetgum, if made longer /wider is also an excellent choice for fire hardening. You have to adjust the intensity for each wood species and that take experimenting.
They didn't rediscover anything. Anyone that's ever built a bow has known this since they started. Well anyone who actually read in an attempt to learn.
@@Tradbow85 You're right in one respect...anyone who can read or watch their DVD certainly will learn about the fire hardened bows...from Keith, Thad and Billy!! But I strongly disagree with your belief that they didn't rediscover anything. Fire hardened bows aren't discussed in any of the Bowyer's Bibles, although that's considered the gospel by many bow makers. There is a chapter on heat treating bows, although that's not fire hardening. There's a big difference. Have you even watched their DVD? Do you even know what the hell you're talking about? Wait...I already know the answer..... NOPE!
I couldn't help but laugh and expected that long beep. Fine job.
😆
Those who live in the middle on the Upper Plains you have Willow, Cottonwood, Chinese Elm Non native, North Nmerican Ash, if lucky Poplar, and Boxwood or Manitoba Maple. You might even be able to use Linden, Hackberry, native Locust ect as well. Others like Ironwood I am not sure you can even make Bows out of due to how strong they are and unbending when new.
Now by the Natives of the Upper plains Some pines were used like the scrap tips of Lodgepole Pine for quick bows that they needed to get them through a period of up to a year till they could get better woods even Cottonwood that would lastshould an old bow break. Yes I am rather sure the Natives pre white people in the plains since they started living here 700-500 years ago had used a similar method to what Clay is doing but more primitive, though not same shape, a slightly different bow shape in that the whole bow was thinner but wider the other way from front to back of the bow.
I purchased the video you recommended. It was well done in terms of quality….however, folks should know it’s 80% discussion repeating the same points over and over with only about 20% instruction. The whole thing presents more like an advertisement than an instructional video. They probably could have made the video 8-10 min long rather than just over an hour and got the same info out. You stated you planned on making more vids on this process. I’m actually more interested in what you might put out on this and I look forward to that content. Thanks again for what you do! I can’t believe I JUST found your channel……. I’m now one of your new Patron Members!
Thanks for signing up. I'll probably do another quick cure fire hardened bow this winter. More to come.
Honestly, that's great! I went on and bought Keith Shannon's video about 2 weeks ago to see what the process was looking like and, seing another way of doing it or should I say, seeing you attempting this experience is very constructive. I just started building bows and eventually, I'll try this up. It certainly adds up to the total amount of time you have to put on a bow but it seems to be very worth it. I have a White Oak reflexed ont he go here. If it doesn't explode :p and if it takes some set after a while, I might give it a shot. Thanks for the awesome video as usual! Take care!
👍
Props to you for promoting the method..It has received a lot of undeserved negative feedback,mostly by those not educated on the process and having not even seen the video and Kieth's process and explanation..The way they were treated on a forum was completely out of line..Hope your Promotion of the process will help dispel that and create interest in others to give it a try and experience the benefits..
I’m not on the forums much so haven’t seen any of the negative stuff. But I can’t imagine why anyone would have anything negative to say!!
@@clayhayeshunter They say its the same thing as heat treating and that kieth stole the Idea from another Bowyer,who thinks he invented heat treating,and marketed it..
Because they acted like they really had something special when this method was never lost. It was nothing more than a money grab directed at new bowyers
@@Tradbow85 Wrong again....They even state,that it is an age old method,that has been rediscovered..Contrary to how some believe,it is not "Heat Treating" and that is discussed and explained by Kieth in the Video..Those who keep arguing that point,lead me to believe they have not watched the video or listened to the explanation and therefore,have no point of debate but only speculation regarding the subject..Define "New Bowyers"???..I can tell you,that i have probably been making bows longer than most on here or on the internet forums,,,in fact i was building bows,long before the invention of the internet and social media and i never heard of this method,until recently and neither had a host of other older long time bowyers,that i asked....I did argue the point of the "Heat treating" Method being a new thing and "Invented by a certain individual,who likes to claim it and pointed to an article that was written by a person using it long before forums were created and long before the TBB's were written,,but i was discredited and threatened to be banned from a certain internet forum,for mentioning it..
@@TightwadTodd I was shown the method over 12 yrs ago. I suppose its who you learn from and how deep you dig for knowledge.
Great video.. Elm is tough wood, makes a great bow. So do you think there is any difference, for the end result than if you would have used a heat gun?I
Thanks for all your videos Clay!! Fantastic job
I don’t think a heat gun can produce the kind of deep penetrating heat that the fire can.
elm is awsome. I had a stave that had a bug two ring underneath the back. I was on brace heigh when I realized it. I exposed the labyrinth and made a breaking test... out of this world
Have you ever tried birch? I know that Alaskan and Yukon natives used birch I always thought it would be tough to work when dry but really don’t know. I have made adze handles with birch that really are good.
I used a heat gun on my vine maple ELB I made a little bit ago and it really helped with the performance just like you showed. I wonder what the benefit of an actual fire over the heat gun is? Maybe the coals and charcoal provide a more even heat so you don't get the hot spots like you showed during your experience. Thanks for the great video!
Would it be a good idea to check the tiller on a tree again before taking the bow to full draw?
Clay, I have a tipi. I cut my own poles. One of the poles was a skinny hickory. After a few years I replaced my poles. I used that hickory to make a nice bow. The base was twisted and the tip was too skinny but in the mid section of that pole was a nice straight stave. 46 inches plains style bow draws 55 at 22. I had a lot of fires over the winter in that tipi. I dont know if it was just that heat or a combo of the heat and smoke but that bow is as good but lighter than any osage bows I have save for one .all about same size strength and style. I think the fact that they stored bows in shelters that had wood fires inside back in the old days tied up or wedged into the framework made the bows stronger.faster shooting ect. The fact that they were rubbed with grease or fat and there was smoke made for water repellant. It's a little more forgiving of a method than putting dried wood over a fire.but I think that is why your method works.its just a faster way of doing it, although a bit less forgiving if your not carefull.
Very cool
I read over data that came out of the wood siding industry regarding heat hardening. Actual, scientific testing shows that wood that was heat hardened loses 10 to 30% of its tensile strength along with losing compression strength. Heat hardened wood is not allowed to be used as structural members. The caveat is though, the whole issue of losing tensile strength isn't important if the bow is sinew backed and could make for a really impressive bow.
You may also what to look up roasted maple guitar necks.. I could be wrong, but I'd bet it's the same process.
you're awesome man thanks for the content
Thanks 🙏
cool bow so far, I was right with you thinking it was going to blow very surprising, great video
Awesome Clay, what is the smallest diameter tree do you think I could get away with?
Not sure. This one was about 3”.
This BBQ system ((hardening by fire), is very nice idea! Thanks!
Way cool 😎💯🏹👍
Superb video, thanks for sharing the journey
Mountain men during the winter would build a bed of coals to sleep on at night. They would regulate the heat by the amount of dirt layered on top.
Thank you for showing this video. This was very interesting.
Glad I didn’t wait on this video haha. I tried last week and I guess mine turned out it has held backset so far. I did have to re-tiller it
Do another one soon that was fun. COOL
Ever think of burying below the fire and tempering with sandy loam and moisture and other unseen essence like burying pitch and sap water/oil mix alongside to impregnate the staves
Nope, I’m just starting down this road!
I would think a making a hot box with some baffles would help the heat soak into the wood and allow for heat control without the direct radiant heat…haven’t watched another other attempts at this though. Fun watch.
Its great to see you learning from your mistakes 👍. Greta video. Will have to give it a go myself sometime
Would be curious what that bow would do if you sinew back it as well
actually i too tried this technique about a week ago . from the time i cut a 6 or 8 inch hickory tree , built the bow and fire hardened it was about a day . it turned out good except the draw weight is a lil light which was my fault not the hardening process.
Same here
I think to get a better distribution of heat over your coals You could just put a thin piece of metal like tin in between them and the bow. might help out some with the hot spots.
That's awesome
Mark St. Louis talks in depth about fire hardening in the Traditional Bowyer’s Bible volume 4 (2008)- I suspect that’s where Beckum and Shannon got the idea
Love the work you done but ryan Gilles had a video of making a primitive bow with stone tools and when he fire hardened the bow he made sure there was fire but he put the back of the bow facing the fire a little bit away so the ow gets some moister and the wood drys
So heat treating wouldn’t have any benefit to wood that is already at the optimal moisture level? Also wouldn’t the wood soak moisture back up after heat treating making the bow less efficient?
Fire hardening changes the properties of the wood. It’s not about moisture content. It makes the wood more resistant to compression. It also makes it more resistant to soaking up moisture. But you’d still need to seal the bow.
Could you dig a pit heat rocks in the fire cover the coals with soil .wrap your bow put on the soil .thencover with more soil .it would be a kinder heat and no scorching...just a thought...
Clay you know you have to sinew back one now and push it to the limit haha
#nexttime
This is totally like quenching and tempering in metal forging.
Heat treating changes the game so much
They built an enclosure around their bow, put it above the coals about 3 feet and monitored the temp at 150 F for 4 hours.
Thanks for that video Clay, I to have studied Keiths firehardening video. I have made a bow out of a fairly ordinary piece of maple, I plan to use that to experiment with the firehardening process. I have access to mainly white woods in New Zealand so this, hopefully will be a gamechanger.From that perspective I found your vid very helpful, Cheers from Mike, NZ..
Thanks Mike
Love the cows in the background they seemed into it
They’re curious 🧐
Hey Clay I had two bows break after heat treating. I done one over a fire like you show in this video and the other i used a heat gun. The wood was really dry and snapped with very little flex. I put a lot of hard work into both bows and I must admit im quite disappointed with the outcome. What am i doing wrong? I must be missing something
Hi Mark, it’s hard to say. Bows break for a lot of different reasons.
This was great video! Thanks.
now i got to try that
Probably the way early man made his first bows. Fire hardening has probably been around longer than bow making. Wouldnt doubt but what you could violate the growth rings and an elm bow would still hold together. Moisture would probably be its biggest problem.
Great video!! Did you ever pull the weight?
Excellent
If you used stain / sealer on it after you get it where you want it would it help with moisture affecting the bow strength?
In my opinion you had to put something like a tent on the top of it. To coffer the heat and it will be closer to the wood. Maybe less cole. And also the tent helps you with the rain. It works for me.
I do not have a good camara for make a good video for you. I will do my best.
performance test before and after would have been great
So I was gifted a longbow that has been stored with the string on for at least five years, maybe as long as ten, and I’m wondering if this would be a process that might be beneficial to bringing it back to life. I have no experience in bow making. Am I wasting time with this bow?
Well sir, it shows the process is fairly forgiving to mistakes and errors.
Elm is for sure
👍...I made 20-30 ears ago sinew backing bows in hikkory , elm , oak , yew , osage orange , bamboo and others wood , bow shape ( bending) I made allways in campfire in a wet wood , I use moose and horse leg sinew ....mayby I got little same thing than you in my bows? I like elm wood . I also made 120 didgeridoo and burrn them inside one hour and the sound is better than no burnings...also I burning my all kanteles that I made in dead willow wood....I must try for this old new way to elm , how it works in sinewbacking elm bows...( I live in Finland 🇫🇮)✨🧸✨
Hey Clay, reaaaally cool Video. Always amazing what can be made out of natural grown materials, even in such a short time.
I also have built a few bows during the last two years, an english yew warbow, a yew longbow with a lower draw weight and 3 horsebows in different lenghts. Next bow will be a longbow, made of ash. And now i need the advice of a skilled bowyer like you. Does the regular warbow d-shape work with an ash bowstave? Or is it better to make a flatbow?
I'm looking forward to your next videos, they are sure to be just as interesting as ever.
Greetings from Germany
Christian
In my experience, a flatbow design works better for white wood.
👍
Can you do this with a heat gun?
Very cool
Very impressive, your bow looks so nice !
I just finished my first hazel bow a few days ago, pretty happy how it turned out, but the bow stays bent when unstring, do you think it's worth trying to fire harden it ? The wood is like 2 weeks old, I don't want to ruin it.
I’d leave it if you’re happy with it.
You heard a something when u pulled draw does it vibrate a little? Cause' I m deaf myself rely on vibrations (feel), eyes, smell....and wanted to make a bow soon.
Can I do fire harding to bamboo self bow?
What if you heated the former then clamped the stave to it? Maybe several times?
Great video, times must be tough, if you need ill send you a pair of 👖's! Hahaha. What you think was the final weight of that guy!
Man those are just getting broke in! Final weight was maybe 45.
I got the online video. Its worth it for reference
Would a small thin wooden heat shield in the front of bow help with potential scorching or overheating ? Like a tin foil wrap for your brisket.
Maybe 🤔
I love his honesty, never use an open flame... bruh I'll show u how to do it proper, ur concept is sound... I'll show u the right way to a fire bow
How do I go about buying a bow like this and to be sent to South Africa? Please
Does the heat source have to be wood fire ? Is there any difference to the result compare to normal heat treatment using heat gun or torch ?
A heat gun doesn’t heat as thoroughly.
Did I see where you are going to be on the program Alone or have you already competed?
Yep, season airs June 3 on the History channel
Did u place well on Alone???