Can you handle 16 thumbkeys?
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
- Give your thumbs more to do and boost your productivity with the Dygma Defy 8-key thumb clusters. Here’s the story of how we designed a thumb cluster that adapts to the range of movements of your thumbs.
Get your Dygma Defy
dygma.com/products/dygma-defy
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00:00 Intro
01:25 Thumb history
03:23 The Effort Matrix
07:10 First approach
08:39 Prototypes 1&2
10:19 Prototypes 3&4
11:39 Prototype 6
13:34 Prototype 7
14:15 Prototypes 10 to 13
16:34 Final design
#mechanicalkeyboard #keyboard
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▶️ Dygma Defy Manufacturing update
• Dygma Defy manufacturi...
▶️ 28 prototypes later: the Dygma Defy 60º tenting story
• 28 prototypes later: t...
▶️ The new Dygma Defy
• The new Dygma Defy - T...
▶️ Benefits and features of the new Dygma Defy ergonomic keyboard
• Benefits and features ...
▶️ The origin story of the Dygma Defy
• The origin story of ou...
▶️ We have the name for our new keyboard!
• We have the name for o...
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I absolutely love the length they go to making things great for the end user. You can tell that this is a passion-driven project and it really shows. Hats off to the Dygma team!
Thanks a lot!
It's great when you see the results and when you tell the whole story. However, once you're in the process, printing keys and redoing the layout, it's not that cool 😂😂
@@DygmaLab sometimes the most fun part is in the trial and error!
“I have a great idea, we’ll make it *this way*” (model made that way, is tested)
“Haha, wow, that sucked, but we learned why, so it’s all good!”
The best part for the prototyping stage is having today’s cheaply available 3D printers: it may cost more time carefully drawing out the model than printing it, and as long as you’re not making fully working electronics, the mechanical prototyping is only a few bucks worth of printer filament for each one. Ok, so THAT failed, well, the materials we can’t reuse (keys and switches, easy to reuse) costs less than a coffee!
I just jumped into the ergo rabbit hole, and I have to say that I'm really impressed by the quality of your videos and the information they contain. You play fair with both the consumers and your competitors by comparing the pros and cons of each feature. I can't judge the quality of your products yet, but I'm looking forward to the release of the Defy.
Hey! Thank you for your comment Noxxys, we're very glad you liked the content 😉
Big respect for this type of marketing. I love how you show your whole thought process and the intention, instead of only showing a shiny product.
I've recently started looking into keyboard alternatives and I really like the idea of not moving my fingers more than 1 key away from their home positions. So it'll be 42 keys (3x6 + 3 keys on the thumb cluster) with 6 or 7 layers for me.
So, the Dygma keyboard would have too many keys for my taste.
Thank you for your comment ❤️
We want to make a smaller keyboard in the future but at the moment we want to explore the columnar layout with our community and the Defy.
A trackball attachment would be incredible.
WIP for Raise, unconfirmed for Defy, hopefully a pre-order add-on for Shortcut's successor.
We're still reviewing the options, but we're currently focusing on getting the Defy on time 😅
Adjusting the position has proven to be very complicated since it depends a lot on each user's case. We don't want to launch it unless it performs to our satandards, and that's going to delay things 😋
The option was on the table, but attaching it without taking some space from the thumb cluster was not viable. In the end, we went for the thumb keys bacuase they felt more useful to more users. Time will tell if we were right 🤣
I don't understand why so many ergo enthusiasts prefer a trackball over trackpad.
@@LeoStaley Trackpads have no accuracy whatsoever and take up more real-estate versus the hyper-acurate trackball.
This was GREAT, thank you guys! :) You went through so many iterations, I love the dedication to getting it as close to perfect as you can. The multiple thumb clusters is a big big reason I placed my order. I am currently using a Moonlander, but for me, two keys out of four for each thumb are not easily useable (there is no curve) and it's a shame. These digits are so strong, they could do a lot more work and spare my other fingers the agony!
I am going to use the clusters for the usual stuff: space, enter, ctrl, alt, backspace, tab, and layer switching :)
Thanks a lot for the kind words 😊
But I'm going to disapoint you, it's not that we have a lot of dedication, is simply that Luis is very picky .
However, the result is pretty nice, so we can't mess with him 😂😂
LOVE this content you've been releasing lately, thank you Dygma team! I really appreciate the deep look into the analysis & experimentation and all the prototypes, it's super fascinating! 🧠You could seriously publish a white paper on keyboard ergonomics with all this knowledge 🤓
Thanks a lot for the kind words!
We thought "hey, since bulding this has been hell, why not make the most of it in the form of content?" And seemingly the result is good 😅
Noticed the poster at 4:12 and my mind went:
”Hang on, has that been there all along?”
It's the ever changing poster 😂
So glad y'all have realized how important it is to shift work away from the pinky to the thumb.
We're anti-pinky usage, and the best way to prevent it is removing the keys available. Something similar happens with backspace and enter, unless you remove them, some people will still use them on a day-to day basis.
Super excited for thissssss!!! Cannot wait to get my hands on my Defy. Not totally sure that I'll want to use all the thumb keys for yet beyond space, shift, ctrl, and alt... BUT! For the inside column of keys... I'm excited to use one for backspace and one for enter, to access via my right index finger. I had that layout on my previous x-bow keyboard (before the Raise), and it's honestly the one thing I've missed. Anyway, thanks for the fantastic content, love these behind the process vids - much love!
Thanks a lot for the support!
No worries for not being able to reach all the keycaps, you can always set secondary commands on those you can't reach with comfort. You can use them to move around layers or to set some macros, don't worry, you'll figure it out 😉
We'd also like to share some piece of advice: set enter and backspace on the thumb. Since those are very often pressed, having them on the thumbs helps to keep the hands on the keyboard and prevent some unrequested hand movement, however, you do you, find what's more comfortable, but always consider pressing the most used keys with the thumb 😊
I am so excited for this keyboard. Can't wait for June to be here as soon as possible!!
Yeah! We're super excited to make it happen too 🚀
She is an amazing communicator.
She definitely is.
Recording videos is always fun!
Dom makes learning fun. Thank you
Glad you think so! We think so too 🤩
I love it, I'm going to order one for sure! Seems so well thought out.
Thanks a lot for the support 😊
@@DygmaLab Literally preordered one 2 hours ago 🙂
You should do a video sharing your analysis of the integrated mouse ideas, letting us know about the various challenges in choosing one of them. We'd love to see your analysis of the pros, cons, and other challenges associated with all of the options, including trackball, trackpad, and joystick, before you've actually settled on your final chosen design.
Personally one thing I like about a trackpad with physical buttons like on my laptop, is that I can easily and practically split control of the trackpad between my two hands. Left hand fingers remain resting on the mouse buttons while the right hand controls the cursor on the pad. I just really miss having a good scroll wheel.
Hi again Leo 😅
As we said in the previous comment, we're still on the concept phase, we're working on an add-on and on an independent device. We're still testing options and shapes. Once we find out where does it lead, we'll try to structure and present it. Take it for graned!
Hahaha you almost got me at 5:28 I was just about to close the video when Dominique said to stop wait lol. Did even think to look to the time scale, glad I didn't.
Hahahaha
Sometimes she's too good an actress for her own sake 😂
I think the tron is my favorite keyboard. all the grouping punctuation available is awesome, single quotes, double quotes, angle brackets (besides lt < & gt >) corner brackets
That's a great option, but what about trying something more ergonomic?
I tell you what, you clearly answered a question I've struggled to find any feedback on so far -- "why is there no key here" at 2:59 -- before I move to a first thumb-control board, I know that having the thumb rest in an optimal resting decision position to slide between two main driving keys is priority number one.
Great videos you are producing. I am watching all of them and will likely buy one of these keyboards due to them. Q: ai am amazed at how good the sound quality is without a mic on a boom in your face. What mic are you using? Thanks
Thank you! We really work hard to produce quality videos with fun content too 😊
We use the HyperX Quadcast 🔥
I am going to give this a try. As a writer/editor, I spend my life on a keyboard. The cost of the Dygma is only too much IF it doesn't work; sore, swollen, stiff, exhausted fingers and hands are far more costly. Thank you for the wonderful videos. I will provide a review after purchase.
Thank you!! We're sure you'll love. I write a lot and wouldn't go back to anything else 😅 But please share your experience when you try it!
I see Dominique, I see Seiko diver, I see Dygma, I press the like button.
You are a man of excellent taste in all areas; watches, keyboards and people. the whole package 😉
Would love to see a concave design/prototype from you guys.
Hopefully, will come in the future, but can't promise for sure 😅
The thing about concave models it that they end up being pretty huge, which is something we're still working around. Besides, they¡re not hot-swappable and have some other issues we'd like to figure out. Either way, thanks for the suppor!
We need more concave keyboards in the market!
Somebody coming up with a way to have swappable, or adjustable, switches in a concave fingerwell will be a big step.
Great work, I like you keyboard and good time to come put I'm just in buying new one. I would just have one question I'm using yubikey a lot, do you have in a plan to make a keyboard with extra USB port for smart keys? That would be great addition that I wouldn't always reach toward my comp to touch yubikey.
Thanks for the compliments!
We're not plannign to give it extra USB slots at the momment, sorry about that 🙏
L and R hall-effect analog sticks, one on both sides, would be awesome. KB+Mouse+Analog is the future!
We are working on ideas for modules that would allow to control a pointing device without leaving the keyboard, but they are in early stages yet 😅
@@DygmaLab My ideal split keyboard should have swappable attachments for thumbs, at least analog sticks, key clusters and trackball.
Do you have any information or anecdotes on people who were able to type faster when switching from a regular keyboard to the Dygma Defy?
Not yet, because users are about to receive the first big batch of models.
Honestly, it might help with the speed, but the main advantage is reducing gerird finger twists and turns to prevent issues, not actually improvinng speed.
A slider for the cluster is great. Maybe it can be exchanged for a part with a thumb stick like on a controller, and maybe a few buttons around it. Could be nice for gaming. I have the Azeron keypad, but I am not a fan of the "buttons" they use. They are way to sensitive for me and I can't really play with it comfortably without clicking things accidentally (and I've used it for months), I'm just not controlled enough when something stressful happens in games :P But something like this with a swappable part fro the thumb could be great.
We tried the thumb stick on the shortcut. It was fine to keep the thumb in place, but maybe not for gaming. And the slider seems like a good idea, but the inside of the keyboard was so packed that we could not fit the sliding mechanism inside 😂
@@DygmaLab I did comment before the video was done, and I had a brainfart, not remembering that the keyboard is already for sale 😋 I will try to get it for my streaming PC I think.
i would put a half-sized switch space on both left and right
then add up down left right on left thumb
then backspace, delete, enter, escape on right thumb
and this might just be my dumb thoughts but i was thinking to move F1-12 into a thumb block under the existing thumb curve as i find using Fn+f1-12 is.. quite uncomfortable, especially if they force me to use both hands to do fn+f1-7
if they existed under the thumb curve, using point+thumb / middle+point+thumb to do fn+f1-12 would be easier and more suited for macro too in my experience
the cons will be rather than a rectangle, the silhoutte will be closer to 2x half triangles with blunt edges
That makes sense! F1 and F12 require a lot of hand movement 👋👋
how does your configuration software compare against the Oryx software for Ergodox keyboards?
I would say the UX is better and you can send the changes instantly to the keyboard by just pressing Save. Our implementation of Tap Tap dance is not as polished as the one on Oryx, though.
You can download and try our software without the keyboard: dygma.com/pages/programmable-split-keyboard
And here's a summary of what the software can do czcams.com/video/Beyo5VJ1PKQ/video.html
do you provide a printable blueprint of the keys placement so we can test if that fits our hands before purchasing and avoiding unnecessary returns ?
Yes, we have that available in here: shorturl.at/optHZ 🥰
"Your thumb hits the wall", something that we all long distance typist are very familiar with. Mile 20, thumbs hit the wall 🏃♀️
Might sound like a joke, but we had several thumb injuries around the office during the testing phase 😂😂
Looks just like the Kyria's thumb cluster!
Looks similar because both are based on the "Thumb arc" design. However, the disposition and number of rows available. Don't get us wrong, it's a great model, but each model has its own approach.
will digma create countered keyboard ?? like ever as it seems countered is more comfortable and digma keyboards are awesome user experience....
We still have to finish the production of the Defy 😅
But that's definitely a possibility we have to look into.
I didn't get it: if I order with low profile switches, I'll have first (top) thumb row with "normal" profile switches anyway to make them accessible by thumbs?
You can't order it with low profile switches 😅
The PCBs for normal switches and low-profile switches are different 😊
Add a Thinkpad trackpoint or possibility to replace one thumb key with that and that’s firee
That's an interesting point, we might consider it for upcoming versions, but unfortunately, won't be feasible in the current Defy models, sorry, but thanks lot for the idea!
Why can’t I order presale on your site? Shows open but doesn’t work.
Why not, do you get an error or something? It should be open still and with the 10% pre-order discount.
Maybe try with a different browser or in incognito mode, it should work.
Gostaria que estivesse disponível aqui no Brasil, Come to Brazil 😉
Putz, ia ser uma boa mesmo! Tem como pedir e enviamos, só tomar cuidado e levar em conta possível taxação 😜
You know, the problem with this is, that we hit in this position thumbcluster not with bottom of our thumb where there are many nerves which allow us to feel the difference in the keys, but with the side of a thumb, where the bone is. That is why for me it is not so easy to say, at which key my thumb is resting. I just hope I'll manage to be at least as fast with my keyboard shortcuts for Intellij and switching layers, as just moving my hand on the traditional keyboard. For now it is still a challenge after 3 weeks.
As we always say, it takes your time to get used to it, but once you get it, you can't go out from it
i have trigger thumb. how does this keyboard help with that
Hello, and sorry to hear about the issues 🙏
Alongside the tenting ki, it might help to mantain a more relaxed wrist position, which can help. Still, we always advice to ask a medical professional with more information of your specific case and follow their instructions.
Hope you improve very, very soon!
Will this have via support? Or will your software work on linux as well?
Our software will work on Linux, yeah. But the keyboard does not support VIA.
@@DygmaLab thank you
I can't wait to touch just the tip
We are all waiting to touch, slam and repeat on the tip 😉
We're almost there, just some more patience and a few more development videos and you'll be able to!
@@DygmaLab You can touch it, you can slam it
Most of my right thumb cluster will be dedicated to arrow keys. I use them a lot.
Will you place them all on the same row or in two different ones?
@@DygmaLab Two different rows. It'll probably be the three keys on the bottom right and the second key from the right on the top, like standard arrow keys. I also realized while typing this that 4 out of 8 keys takes up half of the thumb cluster, not most of it.
The one concern for me is the arrow keys and I do not see how you addressed this. Also seems like the tab and enter keys are not so optimally placed
Hi there!
Well, you can still place the tab & enter in other positions, that's one of the reasons to have all those thumbkeys.
As for the arrow keys, you can try to make them space in the default layer, but we're still in favor of placing them in a different one and have them on ESDF or IJKL, that way you have to make less hand movement to reach for them, but, again, it's up to each user, that's the good thing with customizable keyboards 😊
💞
I have a keyboard with Alice layout on it and I can't utilize even 3 keys, simple because it's been taking me ages to get used to it... 😔
Totally understand, it takes some time for muscle memory to grow used to the new layout. Once you get there, you're going to have a much better experience! ❤️
It can take a while, but it will be worthy!
It looks interesting. But I could never commit to spending that much on a keyboard without trying one out first.
That's something we can all agree on 🙂
In a piece of content we made a while ago "Which keyboar should you buy? the ergonomic journey" We went through some more affordable models, check it out and see if one of those makes it for you 😉
@@DygmaLab it’s not that. It’s more that as it’s not something I can try in a store. I would want a window i can return it in. Or at least a 1:1 3D model I can print to see how the layout feels.
Do you sell in Lazada or Shopee?
Hi David.
Sorry, we don't. For the time being, we prefer to be in charge of the delivery times and quality control through the process.
If you have problems with the shipments and customs, feel free to reach out to contact@dygma.com or our Discord server, someone on the staff or the community will be able to help you with that 😊
13:45 surely those staircase thumb keys are just uncomfortable because they are way too near to the palm?
Yeah, it could be too. We are probably going to have to check that back in the future 😋
Please add a trackpoint!
We'll look into that for future iterations 😊
3:39 Why is B more effortless to reach than G, R, or O?
Oops! That was a mistake, it should be 3.7. Good eye!
@@DygmaLab Ah, good, I'm not completely insane. But 3.7 would make it the same as N. It still doesn't make sense. V and N should require about the same effort and B should be more. Is N supposed to be 2.7?
From what I'm seeing online, the N and B are switched in our video 😊
I have radial nerve damage. This keyboard looks like it may help with my typing issues. I am considering the investment.
Maybe tenting can help you with that! So you adopt a more natural posture
Make a thumb cluster add-on for any keyboard. I will buy.
That would be super cool but pretty difficult to make. How would we make it compatible with any keyboard... 🤔
@@DygmaLab I was searching for but could not find a USB thumb cluster that I could stick or place over my keyboard just under the space bar. Imagine a programmable thin keypad similar to the following of your shape and design "Perixx Peripad-202H Wired Slim Numeric Keypad, X Type Scissor Keys".
Omnipoint or lekker switch possible?
These are not compatible. They require different hardware.
The Defy is compatible with Cherry MX Style switches with 3 or 5 pins. 🥰
for a special keyboard just make somethink like the "Ideazon Fang". On ebay people pay hundrets of Dollars for more than 10 years old plastic crap. They just want this kind of layout for gaming in modern. There would be no competition for you. Your device here is just one of many split keyboards.
Thanks for the input.
The problem with the Ideazon is that it does not make great use of the thumbs, and we wanted to give them some more job while typing, they can handle it 🙂
Can the Defy handle 16 different layers?
Asking forbidden questions)
There are no forbidden questions 🙂
We're a Spanish company, not the Spanish Inquisition 🤣
We're currently working in space management within the Neuron. Can't promise at the moment, but we hope it can store more layers than the Raise.
Your jokes are funny 😄 Do you make them youself?
It's a combination of scripted and unscripted jokes 😊
14:48 ngl I don't think most people's thumbs curve the way yours do Luis
We took that in consideration, don't worry. From our research, most people will be able to reach most of the available thumbkeys too.😄
in sc2, I use a keyboard layout called " The core, advanced keyboard layout"
I use my thumb for alt, windows, command, control, shift, enter, and left arrow key , a total of 7 keys pressed by my thumb on a standard keyboard, very comfortably by simply rotating my keyboard at a slight angle.
I don't want to be a negative nancy, but what you guys have done here is a complete waste of time and energy for the price, in any single hand application.
That being said you have provided duel handed applications a lot more "thumb clustering" power, but over all I feel as this is more so an attempt to copy right a "thumb cluster" for marketing purposes despite the fact that people have been doing this for years in single hand use scenarios.
I hope I am wrong because I absolutely love your company, but this comes across as complete b.s product meant to claim/hold a patent/copyright.
I see your point, but you have to understand that there more applications than just gaming. And that the keyboard is fully programmable with up to 10 layers.
The thumbkeys allow to easily access not only the modifiers, but the layers. And you can have combinations of keys and modifiers on those layers, making them extra comfortable to reach without having to press multiple keys with you thumb, just one.
@@DygmaLab Thank you for responding, I agree there are a lot of points here, again my over all fear is someone entity taking control of the pre built market with respect to "thumb clusters" over all increasing the price for those who do not wish to build their own.
I am not against your layers, or your productivity optimization buy having less reach for multiple modifiers across the layers, I absolutely love it.
It is why I love your company, love the research you guys do, again my biggest fear is someone trying to control the market on "similar thumb clusters" when we all know everyone has hands that are very comparable!
Can one wasd game with this?
Sure! It will be a bit different in the beginning, but anyone can get used to it after a while 😉
where is typing test?
We perdormed some on th Q&A video and we'll publish some more in the upcoming videos 😉
No I can't; using keyboards like this gave me de quervain's tendonitis in my thumb XD
You don't have to use all the 16 keys, just the ones you find comfrotable. But if you feel like it's not for you, there are other options, hope you find the one that suits you!
16 times the keys
That's correct 😊
Why isn't Dygma bolstering more about their keyboards' low latency?
We are going to have low latency, but we don't have the exact number yet. We're going to release a video about that in the near future 😏
thumbs should be in vertical position
What do you mean? That the thumb keys should be aligned vertically? 🧐
@@DygmaLab yes, because thumb is opposable
That's a good idea, but we preferred to go this other way as the thumb can be super flexible and hand all these keys without a problem...
I may have a suicidal wish an that is having my first PCB board be a stripped down Defy
me an my future 3D printer are going to sweat blood
Good luck with that! Tell us about it when you have developed it more!
Soys españoles?
Sí, lo somos. Somos una empresa de Valencia 🇪🇸
@@DygmaLab pues felicitad a esta chica porque tiene un inglés fantástico, da gusto verla y escucharla. Me imagino que tal vez sea mejicana y por eso no se le nota acento ninguno. Un saludo
Dominique is actually from the Philippines 🥰
I am sick of flat jokes.
Oh 🥲