MSFS 2020 - Graphic Settings - Is Hyperthreading really the Bottleneck Problem? NO, it isn´t!
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- čas přidán 10. 02. 2023
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Great testing and eye opening. Conclusions that can be made from your testing: 1 - data thoroughput between CPU, GPU, RAM is causing bottlnecks and FPS drops and stuttering. 2 - LOD sliders adjust the DISTANCE at which objects and terrain are rendered. They have NOTHING to do with quality. 3 - Scenery that has only 1 render level can result in FPS drop and stuttering as compared to scenery with mlutiples levels that render at different distances (may be a great selling point for vendors to publish how many render levels their scnery has).
Very nice Conclusion mate, thx. ATM i try to figure out what all the graphic settings really change depending on CPU, RAM and GPU. But it will take a bit to finish that work ;) BTW i am happy that you understand what i tried to explain with my broken, low fps and stuttering english ;)
@@autonormalverbraucher Haha your english is great! No worries. I noticed your older vids you used DX12 but this vid you used DX11. Did you find DX11 better FPS performance for you?
@@jsemmelify Thx, DX11 uses the CPU a little bit better than DX12 but I am still testing around.
@@autonormalverbraucher Interesting, I'm seeing the opposite. Using DX12 moves more load to GPU, freeing resources on the CPU.
Excellent stuff. U broke it down so well from start to finish that I understood everything. You earned yourself a sub!
Thank you for explaining how some of the settings work. Very well done!!! Gave me a little insight as to how they work.
Really informative, thank you for your time and excellent explanation. Your English is much better than my German and I lived in Gutersloh for 2 years! Well done…
Thanks, I appreciate the work you've put to test and figure out what the settings are doing :)
Amazing video, fantastic information! Well done on the work 👍
Thank you so much for this video, you have no idea how helpful this has been, wish now I had seen this last week before I spent a fortune on a new PC build, still using the same RTX 4070. Well, the new PC should hopefully run perfect with the information you have given all of us. Thank you once again, now a subscriber.
Hi there! I'm very happy and appreciate you making this video. I have looked at SO MANY VIDEOS trying to find the best settings for MSFS. I'm still trying. I understand exactly what you're saying (you did not stutter and English was great). The graphics are strange within the game. Total opposite of what I'm used to in other games. Lower graphics = better performance. But, that's not necessarily the case with MSFS.
Now I guess I have to find some type of software that'll turn on ALL my cores (AMD Ryzen 7 2700). I know it's not the newest latest but, using it effectively I bet would really help.
Again, thank you for this! NEW SUBSCRIBER!
Great video, now I understand the graphic settings better and how important it is for performance to have a high quality motherboard and high speed RAM. This is consistent with my experience. THANKS!
Lots of great info and ideas in this video... Thanks for sharing. Don't worry about your English, you are going great mate.
The more i test and tweak, the more all of this makes complete sense! And well explained, as well considering your non native english!
Brilliant! You just saved me days of work! I jumped on the paradox early, why if the CPU and/or GPU are bottle necked, why does the utilization stay relatively low? After this video, it is obvious, either the CPU is not using all of it’s cores effectively or there is a bus speed limitation between the components. You have figured out it is the latter. To run MSFS at its peak, we need faster memory (DDR) and faster buses (PCI 5.0). Those who upgrade to Gen 5 CPUs and 4090 series GPUs think that is fixing the problem, when in reality, they also upgrade to a new MOBO and their bus speeds which is the real bottleneck. Brilliant, just brilliant! Well done sir! Now what do we do about? Do gen 4 MOBOs exist with higher bus speeds? Can we reconfigure our systems to take our M.2 drives off the PCI bus and use older SATA drives instead? Quite a tuning challenge we have in our future.
Very nice work. There is so many misunderstanding and misinformation out there. My GPU is running only at 50% and I searched for CPU bottleneck reasons Now its a little bit clearer and finally I know what those sliders do. Thanks for your work.
Wonderful investigating!
Here are a few things that seem to work for me. Don’t use the games AI traffic injector, use FSLTL. And make sure AI traffic/real live traffic in game options is turned off
For FSLTL settings
- set ground traffic to 75-100km- this helps a lot with minimizing stuttering on final approach in busy airports since the ground traffic loads in much earlier and not all at once at short final.
- Set airborne traffic to 50km - this helps recover cpu resources since ground traffic is now loading in at a further distance.
This has really help with stuttering on final approach
Very good investigation! thank you for the effort and sharing!
thank you for making this video it was very helpful in understanding the graphics settings.
Nothing to add. Many thx for these points of view. Pertinent !
Yes, it was difficult to follow, but understandable enough to understand where the problem actually is! Thank you ! Very well done!
Thank you for your insights!
Fantastic information here! I have been using MSFS on an older quad core computer (eBay purchase - very cheap) that was once dedicated for server applications I think (xenon CPUs, ECC DDR3 memory). Only upgrade was a used RTX 3060Ti 8GB (also cheap on eBay). All this into an old Samsung Monitor (60Hz),
You might think this system would be useless with MSFS but with screen resolution at 3840x2160 I could achieve stutter free joy rides taking off at Chicago and then very low altitude flights buzzing airport terminals making quick turns with Cessna.
This with a respectable mixture of ultra, high, low settings and reasonable terrain and object LODs.
Because it was a 60 hz monitor I could use Nvidia RTX DLSS super resolution set to DLAA and with MSFS V-SYNC set to 50% refresh rate (30 FPS). Since simulator would normally be around 38 FPS I believe that freeing up those extra frames allowed MSFS time to resolve any stutter making bottlenecks that would have occurred when configuring settings for highest FPS possible.
The LOD sliders really are the key to getting smooth flights.
I was messing w/ settings last night on a long haul flight from O'Hare to Tokyo. I typically decrease graphics and traffic settings when I step away for chores/sleeping so I'm not stressing my system for too long. I noticed that w/ settings low my highest user is RAM (70-80%). But w/ settings on ultra GPU is at 100%. My CPU stays
Bro!!! Mind blown!! I’m going to try this for VR! That’s where I get destroyed in fps… thank you for this vid! Man I’m upset it took me this long to find it!!! Lol
Very very good work. Thank you!
Well Done & Interesting! Thank you sir!
Thread synchronization of the physical and logical cores must be considered and that generally comes down to how well software is written to take advantage of simultaneous multi-threading.
Don't apologise for you r deficiencies in language. Your English is a helluva lot better than my German...!
Thank you, thats nice to hear.
Thank you, your English is OK, its better than my Deutsch :)
So, is Microsoft Flight Simulator developers so sadistic that they leave it to the player to figure out why the simulator hates every computer out there?
I seem so ;)
Great job thanks
very nice stream friend ! thank you
Wow!!! Just Wow!! 👏👏👏
Thanks for this!
I like the video mate thankyou
I will do my own testing with hyperthreading i believe im currently have it on. If you are frustrated by msfs you should try vr... a whole new level of game menu adjustments. 3rd party performance software. Stress testing. Crazy stutters..Frustration and finally accpetance that it will never look as good as you want with industry leading hardware and that it is ok to have lower settings as long as you can fly in a crazy immersive world and enjoy flying rather than tweaking the settings 43566 times per flight
very nice job helpful
Well done sir... Thx
Superb
My 2 cents...
1) HyperThreading (or SMT) will always negatively affect gaming as having HT on will reduce size of L2 cache per core by 50%
2) HT thread is only 30% of a true core so this instantly introduces a bottleneck if software is written to peg certain cores instead of being written to be truly multithreaded
3) There is serious evidence of the OS (Windows 10 and 11) having inferior development leading to inefficiencies which reduce performance and cause unstable performance eg in gaming.
Using a software development CPU profiler can shed light.
MSI Afterburner is also super useful, gives you full CPU info if you display usage for each core.
Regarding MSFS, it is possible using debug mode to see the Main Thread getting overly hammered often and stutter is worse when first core (core 0) is also used by MSFS. This can be partially mitigated by firing up MSFS, then going into Task Manager and unticking first core (core 0) on the MSFS exe.
The reason this helps so much is due to the OS needing CPU to not only run MSFS, but also the OS needs easy access to CPU for other tasks while MSFS is running... such as streaming landscape data off internet and AI off MS Azure servers.
If you free up core 0 this allows the OS to hit core 0 instead of competing on cores MSFS is running the sim on.
Stutters are lessoned, 0.1% lows are also improved, when entering new areas there is also less hitching.
Finally, people often dont realise that a lot of stutter on approach or takeoff is down to the settings pages and the traffic page, gotta lower some of the traffic settings... not just the graphics settings.
Asobo never should have been given the keys to MSFS, they have no clue about making decent engines that are performant and efficient - have a look at The Crew performance for evidence of the same issues as in MSFS.
Happy flying all
Fantastic video!. You told that If I unflag CPU0, 1,2,3 is better for Flight Simulator but what's happen? In your test for all the video you used CPU 0,1,2,3 Affinity activated. Thanks.
Erstmals, vielen dank. So what can we do about the objects showing highest LOD level only when you are standing next to them? I am convinced too that this is partly to blame for the big stutter on final approach. You showed how the objects can be cached but as a VR user, I am desperate to see only highest level LOD on objects in a mile radius. I don't think that would crash the sim, I think it's been 'optimised' for console users, which is great for them but PC users need an option to show highest LOD in x radius.
Everything on low or ultra, traffic etc. - no matter what I do. My CPU max 10% and GPU max. 20-30%.
The only thing that makes the biggest difference is the "terrain level detail" slider that I had on 350 lol (I have to keep it below 150 or I get significant drops..100 is ok too, since you barely fly 5-10k high with clear weather). Or if I go nuts with too much aircraft traffic on airports like Los Angeles International. Other than that no other setting has any noticeable impact.
AMD 5-3600 , 48Gb Ram, RTX 3060TI @ 2k (1440p) resolution.
vielen danke!
i9-1200K, 3080 TI - 1080p - 32GB RAM @ 3300Mhz = stuttering & poor VR performance. Finally I understand the trade off in visual clarity at a distance vs performance using the Terrain & Object level of detail - Thank You
FS v1 > 2020 user :-(
Ich liebe diesen Deutschen Akzent
All of your explanation makes perfect sense.
This has been an issue in FSX for maybe 10 years. It seems like MS just employ poor engineers...
I wonder if you have looked at X-plane and whether it is any better...?
I think the problem is not really the engineering of the FS, its more a problem of the injected mods after release of the game. If you play it vanilla without any Addons, including none of the Asobo Addons, its absolutly playable with Ultra Settings.
I dont suppose you would know if going from a pci gen 3 to gen 4 would help utilise more of the cpu’s performance in this instance.
GREAT jOB! and thx finally i got stable simulation...no more stuttering
Ich hatte einen i7 8700K mit 32GB DDR4 RAM und einem Mainbord das nur PCi 3.0 hatte und habe mit vor kurzem ein Ryzen 7 7800X3D gekauft mit 32GB DDR5 Ram 6000MHZ und habe eine 3080Ti die ich schon beim I78700K hatte aber leider habe ich da kaum Performance Gewinne mit dem neuen Rechner. Ich Spiel auf 4K mit Ultra Settings und beim Flughafen Frankfurt habe ich jetzt vielleicht gerade mal 5-6fps mehr. Auch New York läuft nicht besser als vorher.
Was ich auch gerade gemerkt habe ist, dass es auch stark auf die Datenrate ankommt wie gut das Spiel läuft. Ich bin eben mal durch New York geflogen und hatte da nur 22-26 fps und immer mal wieder Ruckler. Ich habe dann neu gestartet und dann kam die Meldung das meine Datenrate zu gering sei und die Bing Weltdkrafikdaten nicht eingeschaltet werden. Ich habe dann meine Internetleitung getestet, die war aber ok. Ich denke es hängt an den Servern von Microsoft. Ich merke es auch immer wieder wenn ich im Ingame Store was kaufe. Da schwankt die Datenrate von 2-100 Mbits. Ich habe es dann kurz danach nochmal getestet und jetzt bin ich bei ca 33 fps wenn ich durch New York fliege und die Hänger sind auch fast weg.
Thanks, very informative, gives me a better insight. I've tried so many settings, many didn't seem to make a difference, I could not understand where the problem was. I'm running a 4090, 64 gb ram, a ryzen 9 5750x. On a single monitor I get good performance, prefer using 3 monitors which gives so much better situational awareness, but I only get low 20's to mid 30's. I've been using DX12, I will try 11 again. On the MSFS built in performance screen my GPU is coasting and my CPU is in the red, when I use a program to monitor the CPU it shows many cores underutilized. My biggest problem is reading the taxiway signs without stopping the plane to read them or when flying into a big airport with live traffic on. Now we need a video on what other settings we can dial up and which settings we need to dial back.
I am already testing it, but today i needed a little bit of playtime after the work for this video ;)
Similar setup ./ 4090 Gigabyte Aorus Master --- 5950X 16 CORE --- MB ROG CROSSHAIR FORMULA VIII --- 64 GB RAM 3600 MHz ---1 T Me2 drive ,plus many storage . Changed traffic , ground to 10% like he suggested in another Video and I doubled if not tripled my FPS at major airports but it will drop down to the 30/ 40's now and then but stuttering is at a very low minimum which is nice . Everything is at Ultra on 55" Sony Bravia 4K at 4096X2160 set to Gaming mode and using an extremely Expensive HDMI Cable ,,yikes on the cable and everything else for that matter . Have a buyer for my kidney ..AUSTERE HDMI 8K cable 8.2ft long
I have DDR5 with 6400MT/s low latency and still stutternig and low fps on final... i can t find solution
You have this table on the right the whole time and we don't see the settings you make.
You should get better performance with directx 12 though you are constrained by vram. Good luck😉
Cool video. If I use fsltl, do I still see my friends flying with me in a group?
Yes, if you turn on the Online Traffic
How do you get the CPU data etc, so nice in a table on the screen?. I'm using MSI Afterburner 4.6.4, but I can't get the FPS counter on the screen. Any ideas?
Its inside the Riva Tuner you installed together with the MSI Afterburner. Just search on YT for FPS Riva Tuner. There are many Videos about it.
Too bad this was recorded in a wide format. I can't see anything. Do you still use Process Lasso ? Still worth it? Thx.
Excellent info! So basically should we turn up TLOD and OLOD to around 200 and set pre-cashe to Ultra, and thats it?
(i9-12900, 3080, 32g)
Thx!
You must figure out which are the best Settings for you. I don't touch the Pre Cache cause i want a fluid view if i use my Tobii. So pre cache on Ultra is standard for me.
@@autonormalverbraucher Thx! So far so good! Those settings increase my clarity, and so far very smooth with NO stutters or blackouts. But that was flying San Juan (addon) to St Martin (addon). True test for me will be around NYC and Toronto, which I’ll try today…
So based on what you said at 12:00 what do you think about DirectStorage technology?
I have not enough knowledge to have a opinion about this technology, sry.
@@autonormalverbraucher have you heard of it?.
@@perpetualomega Yes, its accelerate the transfer rate between your components by factor 10. But its a brand new technology for the pc. It´s the actual technology for Consoles. You need a NVME SSD. Thats all i know about it.
How about Microsoft and Asobo fix this issue, you know instead of World Updates? Im sick and tired of fiddling with the sim, day in day out.
I don't know what causes stuttering in MSFS because I don't have stuttering problems. My CPU is a 5900X.
Cache
Extremely dissapointed in ASOBO and how this sim is getting worse and worse. More than 2 years later, and things keep breaking over and over, and the LOD and night lighting has been tuned down by ASOBO. Ever since SU5 it's a trash game and no longer a sim. Thanks for your time with this video..
And what about the clouds and weather. Wtf Fluffy shit. When I bought the game it's was crisp!
@@jafyfaen - even though I raise my concerns with respect on the forums. They are deleting my comments and censuring me.
@@gadDenmark yeah I know buddie your not alone. When I bought the game. I flew into such thunder storms the engines was failing low temperatures. I felt the force feedback and thickness off the clouds. The edges was smooth of the clouds and it all looked so different from each other sitth different textures and forms. Now it's just a highly pixelated fluffy mess. Most of the time at least. I had some cool weather tho too so it's still there but very toned down. But the graphics of the old weather is gone. Yeah 👍
Maybe this is what MS meant when they announced FS2024 and said, “We can’t take2020 any further.” I mean heck ya, why build it right the first time when you sell people crap the first time and charge them again to build it right a second or third time. That’s shy Gates is one of the richest people in the world.
I'm sorry, but your explanation of Hyper-Threading is flawed. A physical CPU core has multiple execution units for different calculations, like integer and floating point operations. Depending on the type of software you're running, in most cases, only certain execution units are used. A web server for example needs primarily integer operations to run, so the floating point units have nothing to do. Instead of wasting those resoucres, some clever engineers got an idea: add some more execution units of all types, a little more cache and some decoders, to form a so called logical CPU core. It's way cheaper than more physical cores and allows to maximize the usage of a physical core to almost 100% from about 70%. Depending on the software, a logical core has about 30 to 40% of the performance of a physical core. This allows to process more threads in parallel. A logical core could process data for it's physical core, but that's software-related and is mostly not the case. Logical cores are just slower cores.
And that's were the problems lie. An operating system needs to know the difference between the core types to schedule the threads accordingly. If you need high performance and the OS schedules the necessary threads onto a logical core, it will be much slower than it has to be. On Linux or macOS this almost never a problem. The Windows scheduler on the other hand ... well ... how to this say politely? It's a convoluted pile of sh ... eh, garbage. That's why Hyper-Threading was a big problem for gaming. Microsoft fixed this multiple times in different Windows versions with a mostly okayish result. In 99.9% Hyper-Threading should not be a problem anymore, but in rare cases it still can be an issue.
There are many more problems within the scheduler, especially if you're using AMD CPUs before Ryzen 5000 or with multiple chiplets (CCDs). The Windows scheduler has a certain tendency to shift threads unnecessarily around between cores and this can cause performance issues. Before Ryzen 5000 a chiplet contained 8 physical cores in a 2x4 configuration. Each 4-core-segmet (CCX) has it's own caches. If the scheduler shifts a thread from on CCX to the other, all cache contents of this thread have to be copied over. This can happen multiple times per second and will almost triple the latency with each shift. That's big loss in performance, especially in games. Many games depend on one thread, the so-called main thread. Games need to coordinate many things in parallel, but it is very difficult to split this into multiple threads. Today most games can't use more than four to six cores in their favor and even then many are still dependent on a main thread. Simulators like MSFS are an extreme case and it's even harder to split the main thread into multiple threads. Eagle Dynamics had to rewrite big parts of the their engine to get rid of the main thread dependency in DCS.
Thankfully AMD redesigned the CCDs with Ryzen 5000 (Zen 3 architecture). There's now only one CCX per CCD with eight cores and shared caches, so the copying of the contents is no longer necessary if the scheduler does it's thing. Only if you have a CPU with multiple CCDs (5900X, 5950X, 7900X(3D), 7950X(3D), Threadripper etc.) it's still an issue (on Windows, Linux does this way more elegant).
Think you're safe with Intel? Nope. :D Intel introduced a so-called big.LITTLE architecture with Alder Lake (12000 series). You may have heard of big.LITTLE since it's used in smartphone CPUs for years to save energy. With big.LITTLE there are different types of physical CPU cores: effieciency cores (E-Cores) and performance cores (P-Cores). P-Cores are like the cores you're used to, including Hyper-Threading. E-Cores have another internal architecture to be as energy-efficient as possible, but slower and they have no Hyper-Threading. E-Cores should be used for less performance relevant background tasks, so the P-Cores can do the heavy-lifting if necessary.
The current flagship, the 13900K, has 8 P-Cores and 16 E-Cores. 24 Threads from physical cores and 8 from Hyper-Threading = 32 threads. Of course this messes around with the Windows scheduler. Intel integrated a hardware-based scheduler to mitigate those problems and mostly works fine, but our good friend from Microsoft can still cause trouble. IMO Microsoft has to completely rewrite this thing to get those problems under control.
I hope this explanation helps a little to understand what Hyper-Threading is and things that can cause performance issues in games on modern CPU architectures. Or the TL;DR version: Microsoft is the biggest problem. ;)
Thank you for the good explanation! I was going to say something in this direction, especially that the current video doesn't explain why HT is a problem or not, but just stating it is not.
Damnn you're the only useful comment here I understand fully the whole HT now thank you sir
Great comment, more should read.
Hi thanks so much, I can do steady 30fps after many settings on ultra now. One thing is my screen in cockpit numbers are blurring when climbing/decending. Iv tried upping screen refresh but doesn’t work. Any ideas, think it could be to do with dlss. I have that on quality too. Thanks
Hi, yes i have an answer for that. Just set your DLSS on DLLA or on Quality. Than your instruments will be crisp.
@@autonormalverbraucher I have it set on quality and still blues when numbers moving, but I have not tried DLLA. Thanks
I’m using dx 11 should I use 12? I’m on 1080p
Dlls makes my stuff blurry no matter what.
Is imitation really the sincerest form of flattery? If so Starbugs, you should be very flattered. Mark over at the SimHanger channel basically mimicked your findings.... right down to the baggage cart wheels!
czcams.com/video/clG_8HpTlGM/video.html
Great job none the less though. This information is extremely useful for fine tuning performance.
P.S. you're English is very good. I hope you keep your English channel going.
I will. Just bought me a new car, thats why i found no time to make new content. But i will ;) Thx for your informations. Nice to see that SimHangar used my video and do it with transparancy.
So we are doomed with this sim ? You have a I-9. 3080ti. 32 Gb of ram