There are Four Generations in the NBA Right Now | The Bill Simmons Podcast
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- čas přidán 27. 12. 2023
- The Ringer’s Bill Simmons discusses how we have four generations in the NBA right now for the first time.
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Jimmy is definitely part of the PG Kawhi Derozan Kyrie Dame etc group
Yah swap Jimmy and Derozam
No sarcasm this is quality analysis. We’re here for it Bill
It’s not “wrong” but it does feel like a take that usually gets thrown out in the off-season when there isn’t actually any basketball to talk about rather than a midseason thing where there’s, you know, games and players and things to discuss
CP3 and Lebron are separate from KD and Harden's generation, so I would say there are five generations
I just love to hear you talk. You are not just trying to grab the first screaming headline, but actually rational your thoughts in a meaningful way. Bill, I wish you all the best in 2024. Your listener from Slovenia.
Appreciate you Bill, thanks for all the well thought out entertainment and point of view.
This is an outstanding breakdown 😮
I appreciate your perspective, it reminds me your former columns. I really appreciated the one you did after game 6 in 2012 about the consequences of caring. I really hope that one day you will do a update of your magnificent book of basketball.
Best regards.
Bring back hand checking!
This is a testament to how far sports medicine has come and tech changing the world
I'd like to see stats that reflect the offensive outputs for the years they happened. So a number like 1.13 that can be multiplied by any stat to reflect how much offense was being played at that time. You would make the most average season equal 1.
Good content, have you thought about doing your NBA redraft 2011 to 2016, and I notice to you missed 2009 redraft, keep up the good work
He did 2009 on Zach Lowe’s podcast when the rest of the ReDraftables were happening.
C-Webb and Penny were coming off of rookie years as well in 93. Both looked awesome after rookie seasons and if injuries didnt happen so often they would have been much better(like many players such as Tmac but just stating they were better than younger people may realize.
I feel like the space and pace generation is already there because in contrast to the other generations they really know how to play defense (basically everyone in your list is a good or great defender)
I wish the video quality was as good as this take is.
On top of this, everything is amplified because of the era, so everyone’s numbers are just out-of-this-world
Maybe more talent but it’s not as entertaining a brand of basketball. I’m 36 and maybe I’m already get off my lawn guy but non stop 3’s with very little defense is not that fun to watch. IMO
I like this bill Simmons fella
I think what’s most evident is how the league has turned to a superstar league and what I mean is no team has a culture anymore except Miami every other team has been broken down and rebuilt so many times over or are collapsing like golden state teams used to have a culture the Knicks pistons bulls Celtics lakers spurs all had their own feel. Now it seems like teams culture is based on the star and since they move so much it seems like things change so quick it’s hard to get attached, as a mavs fan I realize how unbelievably lucky we were to go from dirk straight to luka but I see all these other fan bases that are probably so sick of the roller coaster and never getting better stars are better than ever but they’re also more limiter there’s 5 players who can change your team any year and like 2 compete teams it’s so slim now at the top
sorry to break it to you, but those teams that you argue had a culture all had one bc of their superstars (spurs with duncan, lakers with magic, pistons with isiah, knicks with ewing, etc.). those cultures all broke down when stars left. today you can see teams like memphis, sacramento, indiana, and minnesota all have cultures in large part from their best players, and if those players get hurt or leave, then those teams will lose that culture, just like the teams in the past. we've gotta stop romanticizing this stuff
as you noted though, miami is the exception, since their culture comes from pat riley and they keep their former players involved in the organization. btw, i'd also argue okc is different, they've been pretty consistent with what they value and are trying to put out
@@TheRulersBack18 I’d argue on that point because all those teams had multiple championship teams in different eras lakers had magic Kareem then shaq Kobe Celtics had bird than later kg and Paul pierce the spurs had Duncan and Robinson than later kawhi and even Detroit had the bad boys and than the 2004 team that ended the lakers dynasty so it’s clear to me all those teams had multiple periods where it was top tier it kept their culture alive once the legends retired the whole team started over and hasn’t been the same I’d say lebron championship w the lakers doesn’t even reflect on the franchise it reflects on how dominant he was it wasn’t like the lakers won it was lebron my point entirely
@@FreeOfAllFear the lakers' culture during magic/kareem (showtime) wasn't the same as the shaq and kobe years, the celtics literally had decades of lack of playoff success between bird and the big 3, as did the pistons, so maybe i'm not 100% getting your point here.
the culture of the knicks was the same basically from pat riley through jeff van gundy, but after ewing retired, etc., that culture wasn't the same (the eddy curry years, etc.). the spurs had kawhi for basically one year after duncan retired, so it's not like they had this stretch of play post-duncan where you could point to their culture.
there's a difference between culture (heat culture being the best example) and a team just getting a new star to build around. i thought you were talking about culture, but from what you're saying in response, idk why you wouldn't have the lakers or celtics on the list with miami
@@TheRulersBack18 maybe we’re just viewing it differently I understand you’re point thoe the superstars just happen to gravitate to the bigger markets so their culture is more popularity to me the cause doesn’t matter the effect thoe I feel is the league is superstar driven no longer team driven
This might be an unpopular take, but IMO while I do agree with Bill that the league’s talent pool is as deep or even more deep than it’s ever been, I also feel like the product overall is becoming as un-captivating to watch as It was in the early to mid 2000’s where over- emphasis on defense ruled the NBA. Now we’ve gone to the other end of the extreme where most teams philosophy is shooting as many three-pointers as possible and hoping that you make more than the other team. I feel like the style of play generally speaking has plateaued and the games by and large have become less interesting. I still watch and enjoy from time to time but it’s not the same.
The insistence of teams to bomb threes can be really frustrating to watch, especially when guys turn down open lanes to the rim to kick it out for a 3.
A league average of 36.5% from 3 is just too high for compelling basketball
@@andrewshandleNot to mention, the rule changes especially in recent years to literally increase scoring. Teams and players are putting up such numbers that any objective thinker would have to question it. I just don’t believe it’s ONLY because these guys are so talented. The decrease in difficulty has unavoidably inflated numbers and individual statistics.
@@Riles3152rule changes definitely have an impact, but really it's just everyone can shoot now or they don't play.
In LeBron's rookie year 18.7% of shots were 3s, this season it's 39.1%, as a result eFG% is _way_ up. 106 guys average 4+ threes a game now compared to just 32 in LeBron's rookie year.
There's just too much incentive to shoot 3s now.
I’d agree 100%, I hardly watch until the playoffs anymore. The playoffs have been entertaining so not going to complain
Today's game is like watching bad pickup ball with NBA athletes. It fucking sucks.
Absolutely the most talent I have ever seen. Been watching since 2002.
As a European I also love it that you need a European in your team to win a title Haha ❤
This is why bill is elite at bball journalism. Classic bill simmons big picture take that i havent heard from any other talking head.
Expansion is needed!
i said the exact same thing to someone this afternoon. We've never had so many old guys stay in the league and stay good this long.And these 1 and done guys keep getting better. Harden is old and a quitter yes but he led the league in assists. LBJ arguably still getting better. Remember when still an all star Paul George used to battle Lebron? And now we get to add Chet and Wembenyama!
This product sucks. Are you some NBA propagandist on the pay roll? No one wants to see Harden or Lebron at age 40, but ESPN and the league will keep pushing them.
@@iank3924rather watch the 03-04 Pistons win games 85-80 playing at a snails pace with 2 guys on the floor who can’t shoot and barely dribble huh?
Guys are skilled and talented, the product is enjoyable whenever the refs don’t take over.
@@iank3924 If the NBA had serious steroid testing all these old guys would be retiring all of a sudden.
@@Pksoze Absolutely
@@WSquaredSports I never said 03-04
90s
The thing the curmudgeons miss:
The 90s wasn't 'great defense'- it was shitty offense. It was watered down with 6 teams' worth of non-NBA talent, and that meant you had two guys on every team that couldn't score ten points if you left them alone in a gym all night but said they couldn't dunk.
Pace and scoring was very similar in the pre-expansion 80s, especially considering they were doing it without the 3-point shot for the most part. Defense is at a 'disadvantage' in a few very specific scenarios in terms of rules, but they're also allowed to play zone now, and most solid defenses will choke out any team without 4 good shooters on the court.
The real disadvantage defenses are facing is that they have to guard all five players, and they have to guard the whole court. If you dropped the 2023 Kings into 1995, they win a ring easily, because no one would be able to hold them under 130 points a game.
Directly to what Bill is saying, there are two things we're looking at: Overall talent, and talent density. We have the most overall talent ever- virtually every team has an all-star caliber player, and many have 2-3. The talent density, though... It's very similar to the mid-80s. You have several dynasty-caliber teams, with 3-4 guys that are likely HOF players, you have a number of teams that should be contenders, and some who have MVP-level stars w/o much backup.
We need to ***slightly*** decrease 3-point effectiveness. My first change would be to more strictly call landing-zone fouls- if the shooter comes forward, there should be no call. Second, when there are fouls on 3-point shots, the foul shots should come from three-point range. At the end of the day, though, it's on defenses to defend the three-point shot better. When the math changes, the play will change.
i agree with like 98% of your comment here. this would never happen bc there's too much money in the current seat allocations, but the league needs to change the width of the court and bring the 3pt line back, or bring the 3pt line back and get rid of the corner 3. like you note, back in the 90s, the only players who hit 3s were specialists, and even they didn't shoot many. nowadays every team knows the value of the 3pt shot, so they shoot more, and many more players can shoot the 3. if we placed paul george in the 90s, they'd think he was an alien, not to mention guys like steph or dame. a lot of this stuff can be leveled out by moving the 3pt line back. i also think they should move the charge circle back and call that more consistently, but that's a whole different discussion lol
There's also multiple generations of fans watching the NBA and the generational divide is pretty noticeable. Young fans love the faster paced three point shooting era that we're in and the older fans miss the toughness of the 80s, 90s and early 2000s.
But do young fans actually watch the games? I think mostly they just watch highlights
@@Taj_Rahineyup that's true but it also has to do with the amount of various forms of entertainment available to this generation. Social media ,
Corn , mobile games and etc.
They watch the game….just not on TV.
The John Lucas cocaine issue was unnecessary to add. The man has changed his life and helped so many NBA players in the last 30 years.
How is Bills video this bad, looks like a 480p slideshow
Every time, I'm just perplexed by the quality. I know the focus is on the audio quality, but this is a multi-million dollar media company and it still looks like they're using a potato.
Longevity has improved overtime with advances in sports medicine, though the higher pace of the game than in previous generations can lead to wear and tear.
But you tell me
Yes, that and 5 star hotels, rule changes, less contact, more time in between games. It's entertainment.
They keep saying this but it’s only really only Bron, Steph, Kd that’s old n balling still lol
This is an amazing time in basketball
I think we have to stop confusing how easy the offensive game is now with "talent" .. look at how many ppl over the last decade avg somewhere around 25 6 and 6 or higher .. the number will shock you
2000s is deeper. Kobe, Duncan, kg, dirk, bron, dwade, Allen, Pierce, stat, Nash, Paul, Ming, Carter, TMac, melo, Dwill, booz
🔥🙌
I would use the word 'iteration' rather than 'generation' in this context. But that's just me.
Bring back hand checking
I saw a Jordan fan on Twitter ranking the decades based on skill level in the NBA and they had the 2020s in the bottom 3 😂 The parity and amount of talent in the 2020s so far has been unreal
Jimmy butler was drafted in 2011
They literally outlawed take fouls lol and no one complains cuz we’re all just gluten for dopamine kicks via entertainment. Even real life sports has been oriented to algorithm-esq viewing. It’s more about entertainment than ever, across mlb, nba, nfl.
lbj isnt in the same gen as 2009 guys haha hes in the gen with 2001-2007 guys. only kd lbj al horford still left from that gen
Mike conley
NBA games nowadays look like NBA 2K on the easiest setting. I'm not sure that means better.
My favourite Finals was Rockets-Knicks, where every point was hard, and you had 48 minutes of drama every game.
Curry would be pinned down by Derek Harper's hand-checking; Olajuwon would run rings around Gobert, AD or Draymond; Mason or Thorpe would physically dominate KD and the like.
I think players like LeBron, Luka, Kawhi, Embiid, maybe Jokic, would be OK in that era, but they would need to work much harder than in the current NBA.
The Rockets would absolutely physically dominate that Warriors team but they would be so overwhelmed by the Ws spacing that they’d lose by 30
Curry would cook any generation 🤣 pinned down scoring 25+ on his head…not even a huge curry fan but he’s the greatest shooter to touch a basketball dawg get serious
why not go further and say your favorite finals was spurs-pistons LOL
part of the problem when you guys talk like this is you think that it's all the physicality when in actuality it's players being able to shoot that make it more difficult for defenses. someone like mason or thorpe would be essentially dared to shoot, or they could drive into the paint and try to score over 3 guys. someone like hakeem would be AMAZING in today's game just like he was amazing in his era, bc he was an amazing player, but if you think kevin durant wouldn't be a top-5 player in that era, you don't know what you're watching
You’re a nostalgia merchant
What I took from this is that Bill thinks Jalen Brunson has a cocaine problem
And Luka is as young as that last “Generation”
Did Bill mention the '86 Celtics or Bird?
tdil ant and luka are two years apart but two different generations
Mavericks Heat finals calling it now
All this talent and yet the product kind of sucks now. It's all 3 and no D.... Look at the end of these close games.... They just take turns taking step back 3s...and whoever makes them, wins
When has the oldest person in the league been an all-star starter?
The way votes are counted (and who gets to vote) has changed significantly over the years, where all-star selections mean less than they ever had before.
Nonetheless, Lebron is still performing unbelievably at this age. But, Kareem was still making allstar teams in his 40’s.
@@akaman85 Agreed. We'll see how much the silicon valley bros automate bot votes by running scripts to vote daily for Warriors players.
The nba is loaded with guys who can fill up the scoreboard, your hard pressed to find a team that doesn’t have someone on the starting 5 who can get you 20,30,even 40+. It’s a great time if your a fan of creative scorers
Ja & Haliburton are 23 Luka is 24 LOL Luka is insane
Shaedon Sharpe**
Populations are increasing and basketball is globalising, it's by far the deepest pool
Bruh luka nd Anthony edwards same generation wtf 😂
Franz Wagner 🏀🔥🙌
This season Luka is the best and most valuable player in NBA.
Ball hog..always will blame his teammates
Most valuable maybe on gambling sites he’s not winning shit though
@@X_KMD You don't know shit
@@brookaraya Cry lol
Plays one half of the game. Zero defense.
Bill can you improve your camera? I swear your blurry every time
Cmon Bill your video quality makes it look like your still stuck in the mid 2000s generation
Why do you keep ignoring a 30 and 10 guy in Trae? Why the hate Bill?
Jaylen Brown doesn’t belong in this conversation. He has a negative net rating for his career.
Mustache for Bill?
In not so many words, we're seeing the consequences of advancements in sports science crossed with increased population crossed with globalization.
My dad and his friend said MJ would average 70 points in this era.🙄
More like 40 lol TBH With the rules the way that they are to promote scoring and how not just maniacally competitive but fundamentally outstanding prime MJ’s skill set was, 40 a game is entirely possible for prime MJ in today’s game
Bill makes $$$ from Spotify, but his video cam is 240p.
You want him in better resolution?
He’s sitting in a chair talking about basketball. How much visual detail do you need?
@@AaronBrown-dh5skahahhahahaha😭 that’s a good point
You know you can adjust your video quality??
No mention of Zion in the new generation by you , I agree but still he has time to get there but needs to fix some things
And mavs have let Kidd, Nash, and Brunson all go…
Do bill and Portnoy have beef? How do they have no content as boston guys?
Portnoy is too political and Bill is smart enough to stay out of that nonsense
@@cptsketch13on me Bill be chilling on that shit Potney is a closet racist
@@cptsketch13 doesnt make sense...its ok someone will know backstory...gotta be story. Two biggest boston history
Bill made a sly comment to Dave years ago when he was on the come up and has held a grudge ever since. The politics recently is also a factor I’m sure
Actually only luka is making generational records
Now that the league is soft and open you can play for many years.
League has enough talent to have 10 more teams.
Put down the pipe
lol no
it would be unbearably bad basketball
and it’s already not that great right now, look at San Antonio and Detroit’s crappy rosters
The Ringer needs to get better camera setups for their guys. I know audio is most important for podcasts, but this video quality is atrocious
Bro doesnt mention Fox once 🥲
Pretty sure kobe was drafted in 97😂😂😂
Nope ‘96
Get a nice camera Bill, cmon now
What this actually says is that the NBA is worse than it's even been actually. In a tougher time period, young guys didn't figure it out (in terms of championship contenders Magic and Bill Russell are exceptions) until much later...even Jordan lost for almost a decade until he finally won in 91'. Before that the league was such a gauntlet he couldn't break through... no such challenges exist in today's league, it's easier than ever.
This should clear up that argument
How do you have millions in your bank account and your webcam is 480p ?????? Upgrade pleasseee
I have no idea how you come up with these "generations"... the rest of your points were excellent but just picking a couple excellent players from a random window of draft classes and calling them "the social media generation" isn't exactly analysis
Thats a big logical fallacy he started with
I’m only 25 this is nowhere near the most talented the league has been. Nowadays we just crown players before they do anything. Also it’s too many young players who are not ready on bottom teams that teams claim to be developing talent. It use to be a star on every team
....with a cocaine problem
Butler was drafted in the 2010s.. what’s Bill talking about
You got the generations all wrong. Lebron is in a gen by himself, he is in the Big west Gen. Kd, steph, russ, harden is the guys that dominated the 2015 era. Ad, dame pg kawhi are the young guys from the 2015 era. Giannis, joel, jokic are the 2020 guys. Luka, trae, shai zion, ja are the born and raised in the 2020s.
Calling dame and harden separate generations seems baseless
I'm honestly in a hurry to get past the LeBron KD generation... These folks didn't want to compete, rested and generally cheated themselves and the fans
Correction: Brunson was a UFA and didn’t agree to negotiate with the Mavs even though the Mavs reached out. The Mavs didn’t “let him go” he walked out and chose to play with Julius Randle instead of Luka Doncic. I love Brunson but he let us go we didn’t let him go
refused to an extend an extension of 60M/4y that he said he would have accepted. felt insulted, refused to negotiate after being slighted already. so did let him go in a sense
Cope harder
@@kir3167At the time Brunson wanted that extension they didn't want to give it to keep other options available. That is not the same thing as deciding you don't want the guy at all. I suppose he got his feelings hurt, but regardless it became clear he had made his decision to leave before the season even ended. It was definitely a mistake not to get him signed at that time in retrospect, but Brunson is the one who chose to leave more than the Mavs let him go. They also did him a massive favor financially not giving him that deal.
Having Anthony Edwards in this thumbnail instead of Shai is just poor editing😉
Why does bill use a filter and what almost looks like makeup? Very strange
What the heck is Bill calling LeBron and others part of "the Kobe generation" ?? Kobe Bryant was drafted in 1996, a full 7 years before LeBron James in 2003. Kobe won his last championship in 2010, two years before LeBron in 2012. They never competed against each other in the Finals... No other player remains in the NBA from LeBron's draft class, or the year after in 2004, and only Chris Paul remains from 2005, and only Kyle Lowry, and P J Tucker (Rudy Gay) from 2006. Only the 2008 and 2012 Olympic teams link LeBron and Kobe with newer generation players like ; KD, James Harden, Westbrook, Kevin Love, and Anthony Davis.
In the end LeBron is a "generation" unto himself - because he will end up playing longer than Kobe's 20 years.
Luka is way better than Tatum
Duh
“Generation” is a malleable word, I guess. Typically it means every thirty years. But whatever. LBJ is definitely older than Luka, but they’re similar players. (What will Luka look like at 39? Hell if I know.)
30 years? NBA hasn’t been around long enough for that. Are you going to say everyone from 1990-2020 are part of the same generation? No.
@@Hawkgoulet Ask Simmons. He used the word, which I think any intelligent person (or adult) will understand I qualified, child.
The NBA’s full of Millennials and Gen Z’s, Bill. Keep it simple.
How is someone born in 1999 a different GENERATION than someone born in 2001? this dude only talks crap
How is there 4 generations in the NBA. A generation is 5 years? I kinda like your content but this is the dumbest thing I've seen all day
NBA Season is 82 games long, gotta create content
players are better league is worse
And nobody is watching the NBA. Their ratings have been awful.
Some of Bill's best stuff comes when he's by himself. Almost like an extension of his Book of Basketball.🤌
LeBron, Durant, Steph, Giannis, Luka, Wemby ..... could be 6 generations. Also ... 93 is so overrated in Simmons mind. 2006-2016 were LOADED with talent. Stop it . .. way more generational stars than in 93. Dirk, Wade, Bron, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Nash .. I'm leaving about 10 guys out and then Harden, Durant, Curry, and etc come right after that. 93 isn't that good in comparison. You guys are boomers.
The brand of basketball for the past decade is nowhere near as captivating, compelling, intense or memorable as that so-called overrated era you’re speaking of. If you find both teams shooting a combine 100+3’s “entertaining” and better basketball then the blueprint that was laid generations before, then, to each his own. But the more I watch today’s game, the more I appreciate yesterday’s game.
Once lebron leaves the nba is in trouble. No one cares about these young guys pick up game stats.
Kobe is systematically overrated
the nba is unwatchable, it looks like a pickup game, u cant tell if any of these guys are actually good.
I've been watching the NBA since 97-98. And you're right. It doesn't even feel like a big deal when someone scores 30+ anymore.
NBA is 🗑️ these days. I don’t share Bills enthusiasm but always like how he contextualizes NBA history.
this is the worst season ive ever seen. youre on something if youre watching this bs product.
Damn hater from shot making and from a talent standpoint it's way better than the 70s 80s 90s if you wanna talk about the rules I understand but talent wise it is off the charts
@quentinjonesjr7130
If he is wrong why is no one watching basketball?
I'm old. People used to watch and love the NBA. Nobody cares and they are screwed on their next tv deal to Apple or Amazon.
@@iank3924so millions and millions around the world watch the NBA but you think no one is watching 😂
@@quentinjonesjr7130 speaking of the product as a whole. talent doesn't mean anything if the fundamentals of the game have been tarnished. have you seen the xmas ratings? absolutely pathetic. the highest was the BOSvsLAK game at 5.5 million IN THE US! GOD DAM! when you have a league where you cant even body or hand check, YES the stats will be inflated. THE REFS are corrupt/pathetic/SOFT/disgrace to the game and add to the players stats getting points at the line and ejecting SUPERSTARS out of the game. As i said you're on something if what you watch this bs product.
The league has gotten boring. I’d argue the “most talent” argument is invalid because the shotmaking is very hyperbolic. No defense is played in today’s league to keep a player from making a shot. People forget that real scoring talent is shown at all three levels: Threes, mid range, and post ups/attacking the basket. Think Jordan, KD, Melo, McGrady, Bird, etc. These guys got buckets versus much harder defense than today’s game. The best scorers today have inflated stats by chucking threes and foul baiting. It’s a snooze fest nowadays.
you're just racist and don't like how yt guys play
The defense-heavy games in the mid-2000's with scores like 72-80 were a boring grind to watch. It may be truer to the sport but less entertaining.