I think it would be interesting if he reviewed the Agon Console 8 (or one of the other Agon products) straight up, gave his honest opinion, said what he liked and disliked about it, and just left it at that. It would demonstrate an element of class that seems to be absent from the Agon creator's petulant sniping about other products, particularly Mr Murray's, that Mr Kastrup deems as some kind of threat. Then again, it would be another demand on Mr Murray's time that wouldn't really be justified, especially as he has so much else of greater importance to be getting on with.
This is a very interesting system. I wish the Mega65 Team all the success in the world, and hope the X16 also succeeds and thrives in the coming year. (We need _more_ retro computers, not less.)
Though I would like to see it a bit cheaper (as a consumer. Just from David's documentation, i get an idea of what effort is going into developing such machines)
I remember staying up for hours typing in Rocket Command on my VIC-20 from the included manual. Only to lose it when I shut off the system as I didn't have a datasette or disk drive at the time. Totally worth it....
It's great to see how thrilled you are to be looking at the MEGA65. I agree, by the way- It's likely that a rising tide will lift all boats here: a broader market creating cross support and perhaps a wider audience. Great video!👍
Planar graphics was one of the nails in the Amiga's coffin. It was a solution to a problem (RAM prices) that became less of an issue as time went by. Granted, the idiocies of Commodore's management played a much larger role.
Agonizingly, there's an interview from April '85 where Tramiel talks about how he has a "crystal ball" that allows him to see the future, and his main prediction is that RAM prices will continue to drop rapidly: czcams.com/video/AMD2nF7meDI/video.html
Planar graphics had some advantages, especially with the technology available at the time the Amiga 1000 and 500 were released. But CBM made "big box" Amigas that could utilise PC style graphics cards. The problem was that the most popular machines weren't the ones with Zorro or ISA slots, so most Amiga software wasn't capable of using such cards. But hindsight is a wonderful thing... lots of really big companies got things wrong back then.
Yes, that's quite true, and why one of the key early design decisions we made with the MEGA65 was to create chunky video modes, because the bit-planes on an 8-bit computer was such a vexed concept. Apart from BASIC, which we have yet to rework the graphics commands from the original C65 ROM's implementation, I'm not aware of essentially any software that anyone has created for the MEGA65 that uses the planar modes. Instead, software that wants to get the multiple play field effect that planar graphics were good for, uses the Raster Rewrite Buffer (RRB) that we added to the MEGA65. That basically holds the most recent raster line in a buffer, and lets you draw multiple layers of text/graphics over it. That's how the FIRST SHOT game looks so nice, it is using multiple 16 and 256 colour graphics layers.
Funnily enough, It was actually part of the EGA standard as well. Sadly, it It needn't have killed the Amiga, retargetable graphics had evolved on the platform as a way to support the use of third party graphics boards.
Yeah. IIRC, the Mega65 has an XC7A200T, which is a pretty decent FPGA. Technically, one could probably also do something a bit higher end than an 8-bit retro-computer on the thing. In my own project, I was using the slightly smaller XC7A100T and doing a 64-bit CPU and running ports of various DOS era games on it, like Doom/Quake/Heretic/Hexen/etc. Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine someone doing similar on a Mega65 (well, apart from it seems like it has less RAM than a lot of the other FPGA boards, where 128 or 256 MB is fairly typical).
@@TheSulrossIts most compatible software mode is the MiSTer C64 core. It therefore makes sense to instead buy the MiSTer, for which the core was designed ... you'll also get a lot more RAM as a bonus
@@txtworld I have a Mister, an Ultimate64 and a Mega65. needless to say that when it comes to C64, the only machine i use now is the Mega65 since the C64 core which has been ported from the Mister also provides great improvements : I can plug any Retro cartridge such as EasyFlash, EasyFlash 3, Kungfu Flash, any physical cartridge whether it's old or recent, I can plug any SD2IEC drives to the Mega65 ... The experience with the high end keyboard is unbeatable.
Great to compare the systems, but comparing the MEGA65 price at EUR666 to the X16 at USD350 is not really an apples-to-apples comparison. The MEGA65 comes with a case, and mechanical keyboard. If we add the WASD mechanical keyboard and the Lazer3D case to the X16, and 3 lots of shipping as you can’t buy them together, then the X16 is actually more expensive than the MEGA65 (well at least where I live). Not to mention, the MEGA65 also includes a floppy drive! But, anyway, I’ll probably end up owning both. LOL
David, I am quite impressed. I admit I was one of the folks who may have had a few fears of the channel not giving the Mega 65 a fair shake but you were very thorough, open and unbiased in this video. I really liked what you said at the beginning about the riding tide raising all boats. Thanks for a great video! I should have never had my doubts!
The mega 65 sounds like the modern retro computer David was dreaming of. I love the sound of the 12 channel SID. Would love to see more content about it.
Fantastic content/channel mate! Me and my brother had 64 from Xmas 84, and we absolutely loved it. Me and some mates still used it heavily right up to, and for several years after, we'd left school in summer of 1990. Ot fired my imagination in a way nothing else did, and it's one of 2 major reasons for my lifelong love of electronic music. Subbed.
A long-time subscriber here, who have slowly been drifting away from this channel. I miss these kinds of videos. It's been too much focus on X16 or the XXth rewrite of PETSCII Robots of late. I came to love this channel because of its in-depth passion about retro computers and I feel the focus have been shifting to other things lately. Hope to see more of these videos in the future. Great stuff.
I cannot agree more. However, the issue is that there is a very limited supply of retro computers that will interest his viewer base. The Atari 8-bit line or TI-99/4 are not as popular as the C64. ZX Spectrum and Amstrad CPC are nearly unheard of in the US. He has gone through the Commodores, even the PC clones. What's left are Amiga 600/1200, which are minor improvements over the 500, the C64GS, which no one cares about, and... nothing. The US moved on to PC quickly and there have been 1000 retro PC games channel out there. I guess he can make a 'rare/obscure computer channel', but he is no good electronic engineer, and making videos about what he doesn't know exposes that. Last time he tried to do something like that with the IBM PS/2 he came under significant fire.
@@andyhu9542 But does it have to be computers being reviewed? I enjoy it just as much when it is peripherals, devices, electronics and other releated stuff.
@@DanElgaard9 Yes! That's a great idea! Most people just bought the computer and maybe the datassette/disk drive to load games. Things like printers are usually 'the thing that was always on magazines but never owned.' It is a good source of content.
This project is so cool to follow. Best of luck for the future to the MEGA65 team and thanks for covering this. I just love how the Commodore 65 blends in between C64 and A500 with the added bonus of the MEGA65 that it's all FPGA based.
This is the first full video I've watched on the Mega65 - what an age to be alive in! There are so many great recreations of old systems, and entirely new systems inspired by them out at the moment. I had the opportunity and budget to support one a couple of years ago, and I narrowed it down to either the Spectrum Next or the Mega65. I ended up getting a Next - it all boiled down to cost at the end of the day for me. But that was the only deciding factor. Anyway, thanks for a great and honest review.
When a new 8 bit guy video pops up in my feed, the feeling i get cant be matched. It’s the only channel that i watch every video from start to finish. Thank you for the years of magical content!
1/2 the reason I love this channel is cool retro tech from all walks. Just like a music artist likes other music on can also appreciate other things but still take pride in their own stuff. Great content as always
A longer video please! We know that it is a competitor, and we love what your team has created in the Commander X16, but we didn't see enough of this new C65 remix.
Great video David. I’d love to see you cover the ZX Spectrum Next. It’s a wonderful computer in a similar vein to those mentioned here. It also has an incredible version of basic with excellent new graphics abilities.
I am so sorry there will be less videos not because of you but because of what you explained last video, I really liked your videos over all other youtubers in this area
If I'm gonna get one of the higher-cost new retro-style computers, it's going to be this one. There's so much cool stuff about it. Makes the price tag worth it IMO.
Keep up the great work david. I look forward to your videos. Also came across a stash of old z80 comouters and ibscure sutff a few months ago you may be interested in taking a gander at
I really enjoyed this overview, thank you. I know you are cutting back on the number of videos but if they are this good I will keep watching and enjoying your visits to yesteryear.
Thank you, David! What you forgot mentioning is the VIC-4 video controller, which is based around VIC-III chip that can be found in the original Commodore 65.
Someone could write an Atari 800 FPGA core for it. It's open source so it might happen someday. In fact, an FPGA Atari 800 core already exists for MiSTer so it might not be too much trouble to port it over.
I have an original Atari 800 I bought when in high school. It's just sitting in my closet. Been thinking of trying to sell it somewhere or give it to a computer museum. Used to play the crap out of MULE.
I think this is an excellent, comprehensive review - and you acknowledge the potential conflict of interest re the X16, but also don't see them as "competitors" but as fellow enthusiast devices who can learn from and support each other. One of the many reasons I enjoy this channel, it's a very supportive positive place!
Would love to see the old Commodore bindings, as much of a pain as they were to actually use. Regular spiral's are common enough and fairly inexpensive. We do a lot of very small batch runs of them in my shop for training manuals and the like.
It's great that this kind of computing/design is still happening. Also really cool that two creators of competing products can meet up and check out each others gear.
The MEGA65 looks like a nice complete computer, just plug it in and start using it 👍 It also seems like the old original 8 bit machines, C64, ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC and Atari 8bit have gained a lot in popularity over the last few years. Personally I find it a lot of fun to write code for the original machines.
I keep wondering if one can break even on game sales for old systems; like, ignoring your time to write code, can you sell at a price, enough copies, to pay for printing disks/pcbs/carts, boxes? I keep being tempted to write a few crazy games for various machines, but being able to break even would be a nice plus. (I wobnder which retro machines have the largest audience? Presumably C64 and NES or SNES, but you never know..)
@@skeezixcodejedi For something like C64 games there are companies who'll take care of the whole boxing, making disks, cassettes, cartridges, marketing and shipping, e.g. Protovision, but I can imagine they require the game to be original and high quality. Alternatively you can sell digital copies on itchio.
Competition in any space is generally good for consumers. This means that the X16 version 2 boards need to really knock it out of the park to challenge the Foenix and MEGA65. Price vs features, I guess? Either way, I'm excited for the future of this niche.
Not to mention several other modern 8 bit machines that already exist, some of which sell at a much lower price point than any of the ones you mentioned.
The features are already set in stone. The next goal should be to make it as cheap as humanly possible, so as many people as possible can afford it. Computers for the masses, not the classes.
This is so cool, I don't know even know where to begin.... I'd love to se more of this machine, as well as of the Commander. And I also fell in love with the awesome Oregon Trail t-shirt 💕
At this point in history I think it's no longer applicable to call this a "Commodore 65 repro" or to call something else a "C64 repro" or an "Amiga 500 repro," etc. These days since it's all just FPGA cores, it's more "What flavor do you want your FPGA machine in?" and you can get a shell of whatever you want the look and feel to be like and swap out some OS stuff to boot straight into your flavor of choice.
The Mega 65 is isn't really a reproduction of anything. The C65 was only ever released in prototype form, and in extremely small numbers. Not all the prototypes were complete, and therefore not compatible with each other. The Mega 65 has added capabilities that the C65 didn't. It's essentially an expensive fantasy computer, created in an FPGA, that can run a handful of software titles written for a machine that never made it in to production.
@@pelgervampireduck It's not emulation. It's a circuit recreation. That's why FPGAs cost so much. It is ironic however, that you're basically paying for more limitations. The Spectrum Next being incapable of loading the archival format for the platform without Pi assistance, for example. But they're authentic limitations. I mean, you CAN run a Spectrum core on the C65, but you don't really get the feel of either system without the associated hardware.
@@pelgervampireduck Wrong. FPGAs aren't emulation. When you write a bitstream for an FPGA, you aren't "programming" a CPU in a conventional sense. You're actually operating at a much lower level, actually manipulating the individual logic gates within the FPGA, linking them together in various ways that essentially exactly duplicates the functionality of something. Think of it as something similar in concept to a giant box of tinker toys. You slap them together according to a set of instructions (the bitstream) and you end up with a real working thing -- a bridge, or a robot arm, or a crane, or whatever -- that for all intents and purposes exactly duplicates the look and function of the original object. This is why FPGAs are so popular in the retro gaming community, because with the FPGA "toolbox" you can reproduce the behavior of whatever hardware (a Nintendo or a Genesis or whatever) with an extremely high level of accuracy, and without the performance penalty and inflexibility of traditional emulation.
@@pelgervampireduck What you're missing when running emulators on a PC is the feel of the system. These old systems used unique keyboard layouts and mechanisms, media and peripherals. THEC64 gave you the C64 keyboard, so certain keyboard based games played the way they should, for example "Star Trek by Ian Gray" which used the function keys and the keyboard arrow keys. Playing the game on Vice on my Apple keyboard just doesn't feel the same and isn't as enjoyable for me. The Mega65 gives you the C65 keyboard layout, if not the real key mechanism, ports and even a floppy drive so you can get it to work largely like a C65 would have.
It looks like the Mega65 includes a FPGA beast, and along its custom keyboard and case can explain its big cost. But, anyway, the FPGA is the way to go with this kind of retro systems because you can still get a working system when the critical hardware is no longer around (The day WDC closes business the X16 would have a big problem, but synthesizable 6502 cores will always be around). I myself did a board design with these systems in mind, but a much cheaper one using a Lattice FPGA and a Cypress SRAM. With that board I was able to recreate these computers: - A ZX Spectrum 48K - An Amstrad CPC 464 - An Apple II and IIe (search for apple ][ fpga replica) - A Defender arcade. And also other computers with with custom CPUs of my own design (8-bit, 16-bit, and even a 32-bit RISC-V) All using the same FPGA board, a VGA monitor, a PS2 keyboard, an SD card, and a game controller.
Please don't take this question as a complaint but is the max resolution for this video 720p? I think David often posts at at least 1080p, IIRC. I ask because I have seen instances where other CZcamsrs have posted vides up to 4K resolution and for some reason, that's not an option for me. Am I being throttled or is this just a lower resolution video?
The last few videos have been posted at 720p without explanation, perhaps he's hoping we won't notice? I suspect that higher resolutions are provided to patreon members but I have absolutely no basis for that belief. Also, for a while CZcams has been trying to steer some "unprofitable" viewers to lower resolutions which could be manually overridden by the viewer, this could have skewed David's analytics indicating that the majority of viewers watch in 720p, which could have lead him to drop producing his content at 1080p. It's all guesswork, though, until he addresses the issue.
@@ffsireallydontcare Well, that's odd. I am... cough... probably one of those people that don't generate revenue for them. But not all CZcamsrs have low resolution videos. I know of another guy (a fisherman in the UK) who I actually spoke with directly. He uploads in 4k, but often his videos for me are never higher than 1080p. Odd. For some reason, some channels seem to be throttled, but I have no clue if that's happening here.
@@RichardHartness I've noticed that sometimes the higher resolutions take a while to become available in certain regions. CZcams uses regional cache servers and try to direct your connection to the closest one, and if a video is popular it is likely to have all the higher resolutions locally available. Sometimes though, like for me as I'm on the end of a wet piece of string at the other side of the planet, higher resolutions take a while to populate and only become available when CZcams detects that I *really* want to watch the whole video.. Unfortunately this hasn't been happening for David's videos, so I suspect that he's actually posting at 720p.
Thanks for another interesting, info-packed episode. Nice to see the main studio room back in use again. I was wondering if something had happened to it!
BASIC is easy to use vs assembly. But modern Python or JavaScript etc are easier. A lot of the problem BASIC solved was how to enter a program in the first place - microcomputers didn’t have the memory to run a text editor. Line editing was the way, which is very cumbersome to modern minds. Also, most versions of BASIC lacked library support for graphics and sound, meaning if you wanted to do any of that you’d be writing machine code expressed as incomprehensible sequences of PEEK and POKE commands. It’s a relic of its time.
I think Python would be the best choice if you just want to learn general programming, it’s about as easy as BASIC. I originally learned BASIC decades ago and I think of Python as BASIC evolved for more modern computer capabilities.
To me the best modern retro computer is a raspberry Pi running RiscOS natively on its Acorn Risc Machines processor. It doesn't run all Archimedes games but the original Archimedes did not run many games either. RiscOS contains BBC basic with its built in Assembler and its manual which is dated 2017 is available online. The version of RiscOS for the Pi that contains the most useful utility programs is RiscOS direct.
Hey David, can we have more than 720p Video? Like, the camera makes a decent, really good image, but a bit low res on a large 4k monitor. Which is a bummer. Is the camera not capable of 1080p? I think your older vids were 1080... they kinda looked better in my memory, but maybe that's the fault, my memory.
I just ordered an Aquarius+, it looks like it has a lot of potential! I'm looking forward to your review! There are a LOT of fantastic things going on in the retro-computer world right now, including some things for the TI 99/4a in the pipeline hopefully for the not-too-distant future. By the way 8BG you ought to do a JAMMA arcade harness compatible version of the Commander X16, it sounds like it might be a good platform for people whom want to make their own coin-op arcade games and I know you're thinking of making some yourself.
Great to see another awesome 8-Bit Guy video about retro 8-bit systems. Also great to see you mention Foenix as well. I suspect the truely devoted 8-bit enthusiasts will eventually end up with all three systems! Especially from the point of developing and testing software that can be ported across all three systems.
So, now, Dave, you need to make a video about how we can write program for the 3 platforms ;) Will there be common libs ? tools ? Damn, that's becoming pretty interesting :)
they are bringing attention to the potential here - write software that can target three different machines. Those feeling the entrepreneur tickle do the rest
I have written an assembler that runs natively on the Mega 65. Of course it will not output code for all three machines, but only for the Mega 65. It's called "Mega Assembler" and can output 6502, 4510 and 45GS02 binaries. It's available in the file area of the Mega 65 site.
I really love these videos. I have an interest in old tech. More 90's tech than 80's but these intrigue me. I jsut wish I had the confidence to be as technical.
Glad to hear that they got a license from Cloanto to use the Commodore ROM code... Which brings up a question that would interest me.... Does VTech still own the Laser 128 ROM code or did they sell it off? Getting Apple to license their ROM code is likely a nonstarter, but I think a modern legal recreation of the Laser 128 might interest at least a couple of people.
@@Steril707 that’s fair, but there are a lot of Apple II fans that would probably throw their money at it. I just see VTech being more willing to License the Laser ROMs than Apple would.
I've been a long-time fan of your content, and I appreciate the effort you put into sharing your knowledge and passion for all things retro tech. However, I couldn't help but notice a shift in your last few videos that prompted me to comment. Lately, it seems like there's been a noticeable increase in indifference in your videos. While I understand that everyone has their off days, I wanted to express how it has impacted my experience as a viewer. Your content has always been a source of inspiration and joy for me, but the recent tone has made it a bit challenging to enjoy. I believe your authenticity is one of the reasons so many people connect with your videos. Still, I wanted to share my perspective as a viewer who has found the last few videos somewhat depressing to watch. Perhaps it's just a temporary phase, and I trust that you'll find the balance that resonates with your audience. Looking forward to more of your engaging content in the future. Keep up the great work, and I hope brighter days are ahead for both you and your videos.
Nah I think his next 10 videos should be about the graphical updates to the video games his made then he should make a video complaint about low view count.
@@Amberlynn_Reid Enjoy the videos or dont.....personally I love 8-bit guy with what ever he does because his so informative and has some really cool projects that he does, if you dont like that then just dont watch he doesnt owe you anything. The guy is obviously struggling with things right now so he poured his heart out.....please do not kick someone when they are down.
I'm not sure David would entertain that idea. 😂 I think Bernardo has touched a nerve by producing a computer that isn't too far away from what David called his "ideal" computer specifications, at a price that David initially hinted he wanted his own computer to sell for. But the X16 missed all the the targets David mentioned in his "ideal computer" video by a country mile. Bernardo even said he would design a 6502 version of the Agon 2 for about the same price as the Z80 version. I imagine that's when David started spitting blood and began sticking pins in effigies of Bernardo. 😉
Bernardo burnt bridges in the retro community by the way he went about writing his original article that slammed the X-16, the X-16 design team, and David Murray - Bernardo put his as*hole mode on full blast when he wrote that piece, then followed up by doubling down. These days Bernardo has been keeping a lower profile and not going out of his way to attack others in the retro community, but no one has forgotten what he did to the overall retro community - a lot of his groupies started going around and hate mongering. Bernardo started all of that. Totally unnecessary and the worst thing that have ever witnessed go on in the retro computing universe. Is a shame because Bernardo is super smart dude and an excellent board designer, given his professional career background. Is just sad to such gifted people be such complete as*holes.
Here’s my vote for a two hour episode on the MEGA65.
I will definitely watch it😊😊
That's not going to happen ... unless the MEGA65 team sends Dave a free review unit - that's his to keep
I vote for 2 hour episode on X16
David made 3 hours worth of videos in 2023; he claimed YT takes 25% of his time.
A 2-hour video would take him months to make.
Why not?, was very short and interesting system, an full experience for a great computer
You are a good man. You gave a fair and honest and even gracious assessment of a competing product. Thank you.
I think it would be interesting if he reviewed the Agon Console 8 (or one of the other Agon products) straight up, gave his honest opinion, said what he liked and disliked about it, and just left it at that. It would demonstrate an element of class that seems to be absent from the Agon creator's petulant sniping about other products, particularly Mr Murray's, that Mr Kastrup deems as some kind of threat. Then again, it would be another demand on Mr Murray's time that wouldn't really be justified, especially as he has so much else of greater importance to be getting on with.
@@paul_boddie🤣
This is a very interesting system. I wish the Mega65 Team all the success in the world, and hope the X16 also succeeds and thrives in the coming year. (We need _more_ retro computers, not less.)
Neither of those is a real retro computer.
@@Okurka. they are
@@thenameless3271 you just don't know what you are talking about :)
@@xlr8r171 Retro style means imitating the style from the recent past, not retro.
Though I would like to see it a bit cheaper (as a consumer. Just from David's documentation, i get an idea of what effort is going into developing such machines)
I remember staying up for hours typing in Rocket Command on my VIC-20 from the included manual. Only to lose it when I shut off the system as I didn't have a datasette or disk drive at the time. Totally worth it....
It's great to see how thrilled you are to be looking at the MEGA65. I agree, by the way- It's likely that a rising tide will lift all boats here: a broader market creating cross support and perhaps a wider audience. Great video!👍
and healthy markets need some product choices
@@TheSulross Exactly!
no way it isn’t happening
Planar graphics was one of the nails in the Amiga's coffin. It was a solution to a problem (RAM prices) that became less of an issue as time went by. Granted, the idiocies of Commodore's management played a much larger role.
Agonizingly, there's an interview from April '85 where Tramiel talks about how he has a "crystal ball" that allows him to see the future, and his main prediction is that RAM prices will continue to drop rapidly: czcams.com/video/AMD2nF7meDI/video.html
Planar graphics had some advantages, especially with the technology available at the time the Amiga 1000 and 500 were released. But CBM made "big box" Amigas that could utilise PC style graphics cards. The problem was that the most popular machines weren't the ones with Zorro or ISA slots, so most Amiga software wasn't capable of using such cards. But hindsight is a wonderful thing... lots of really big companies got things wrong back then.
Yes, that's quite true, and why one of the key early design decisions we made with the MEGA65 was to create chunky video modes, because the bit-planes on an 8-bit computer was such a vexed concept. Apart from BASIC, which we have yet to rework the graphics commands from the original C65 ROM's implementation, I'm not aware of essentially any software that anyone has created for the MEGA65 that uses the planar modes. Instead, software that wants to get the multiple play field effect that planar graphics were good for, uses the Raster Rewrite Buffer (RRB) that we added to the MEGA65. That basically holds the most recent raster line in a buffer, and lets you draw multiple layers of text/graphics over it. That's how the FIRST SHOT game looks so nice, it is using multiple 16 and 256 colour graphics layers.
Funnily enough, It was actually part of the EGA standard as well.
Sadly, it It needn't have killed the Amiga, retargetable graphics had evolved on the platform as a way to support the use of third party graphics boards.
@@BlueberryWright Tramiel had left Commodore by the time the Amiga came about.
This channel never gets old.
I love the fpga inside letting you try different retro CPUs and even your own designs
it's a more classy take on MiSTer approach - and people will spend similar amounts on decking a MiSTer out, so why not go with a slicker end product
Yeah. IIRC, the Mega65 has an XC7A200T, which is a pretty decent FPGA.
Technically, one could probably also do something a bit higher end than an 8-bit retro-computer on the thing.
In my own project, I was using the slightly smaller XC7A100T and doing a 64-bit CPU and running ports of various DOS era games on it, like Doom/Quake/Heretic/Hexen/etc.
Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine someone doing similar on a Mega65 (well, apart from it seems like it has less RAM than a lot of the other FPGA boards, where 128 or 256 MB is fairly typical).
@@TheSulrossIts most compatible software mode is the MiSTer C64 core. It therefore makes sense to instead buy the MiSTer, for which the core was designed ... you'll also get a lot more RAM as a bonus
@@txtworld I have a Mister, an Ultimate64 and a Mega65. needless to say that when it comes to C64, the only machine i use now is the Mega65 since the C64 core which has been ported from the Mister also provides great improvements : I can plug any Retro cartridge such as EasyFlash, EasyFlash 3, Kungfu Flash, any physical cartridge whether it's old or recent, I can plug any SD2IEC drives to the Mega65 ... The experience with the high end keyboard is unbeatable.
I wonder if the Mega65 could have an X16 fpga core 🤯
Mega64 has got some real competition.
I actually had to read the title twice wondering if Rocco would appear next to Dave. blew my mind for a while
Dr. Poque’s about to fly to Seattle to attempt a heist of this I’m sure.
What's the Mega64?
Thank you Dan for bringing the C65. Impressive piece of kit. And thanks Dave for the great video. Happy New year
This is awesome for so many friggin reasons. Thank you for your efforts, David. It’s so cool to see y’all networking and making some content together!
Great to compare the systems, but comparing the MEGA65 price at EUR666 to the X16 at USD350 is not really an apples-to-apples comparison. The MEGA65 comes with a case, and mechanical keyboard. If we add the WASD mechanical keyboard and the Lazer3D case to the X16, and 3 lots of shipping as you can’t buy them together, then the X16 is actually more expensive than the MEGA65 (well at least where I live). Not to mention, the MEGA65 also includes a floppy drive! But, anyway, I’ll probably end up owning both. LOL
David, I am quite impressed. I admit I was one of the folks who may have had a few fears of the channel not giving the Mega 65 a fair shake but you were very thorough, open and unbiased in this video. I really liked what you said at the beginning about the riding tide raising all boats. Thanks for a great video! I should have never had my doubts!
Ahh nice. I met Dan and saw the C65 at the Commodore Expo in Seattle this summer.
The mega 65 sounds like the modern retro computer David was dreaming of. I love the sound of the 12 channel SID. Would love to see more content about it.
Fantastic content/channel mate! Me and my brother had 64 from Xmas 84, and we absolutely loved it. Me and some mates still used it heavily right up to, and for several years after, we'd left school in summer of 1990. Ot fired my imagination in a way nothing else did, and it's one of 2 major reasons for my lifelong love of electronic music.
Subbed.
A long-time subscriber here, who have slowly been drifting away from this channel. I miss these kinds of videos. It's been too much focus on X16 or the XXth rewrite of PETSCII Robots of late. I came to love this channel because of its in-depth passion about retro computers and I feel the focus have been shifting to other things lately. Hope to see more of these videos in the future. Great stuff.
Agree.
I cannot agree more. However, the issue is that there is a very limited supply of retro computers that will interest his viewer base. The Atari 8-bit line or TI-99/4 are not as popular as the C64. ZX Spectrum and Amstrad CPC are nearly unheard of in the US. He has gone through the Commodores, even the PC clones. What's left are Amiga 600/1200, which are minor improvements over the 500, the C64GS, which no one cares about, and... nothing. The US moved on to PC quickly and there have been 1000 retro PC games channel out there. I guess he can make a 'rare/obscure computer channel', but he is no good electronic engineer, and making videos about what he doesn't know exposes that. Last time he tried to do something like that with the IBM PS/2 he came under significant fire.
@@andyhu9542 But does it have to be computers being reviewed?
I enjoy it just as much when it is peripherals, devices, electronics and other releated stuff.
@@DanElgaard9 Yes! That's a great idea! Most people just bought the computer and maybe the datassette/disk drive to load games. Things like printers are usually 'the thing that was always on magazines but never owned.' It is a good source of content.
This project is so cool to follow. Best of luck for the future to the MEGA65 team and thanks for covering this.
I just love how the Commodore 65 blends in between C64 and A500 with the added bonus of the MEGA65 that it's all FPGA based.
This is the first full video I've watched on the Mega65 - what an age to be alive in! There are so many great recreations of old systems, and entirely new systems inspired by them out at the moment. I had the opportunity and budget to support one a couple of years ago, and I narrowed it down to either the Spectrum Next or the Mega65. I ended up getting a Next - it all boiled down to cost at the end of the day for me. But that was the only deciding factor. Anyway, thanks for a great and honest review.
Thanks for the video! And thanks to Dan for bringing the M65 out for us to see.
When a new 8 bit guy video pops up in my feed, the feeling i get cant be matched. It’s the only channel that i watch every video from start to finish. Thank you for the years of magical content!
What a shallow comment
@@heindijs what a shallow comment
@@brusspup what a deep comment
@heindijs your mother never wanted to adopt you, paperwork mishap.
@@brusspup it's all just a bunch of circlejerking.
1/2 the reason I love this channel is cool retro tech from all walks. Just like a music artist likes other music on can also appreciate other things but still take pride in their own stuff. Great content as always
A longer video please! We know that it is a competitor, and we love what your team has created in the Commander X16, but we didn't see enough of this new C65 remix.
Oooh! I spotted "Wizrd of Wor" on one of the cartridges. For some reason I loved that back in the 80s.
Same!
Great video David.
I’d love to see you cover the ZX Spectrum Next. It’s a wonderful computer in a similar vein to those mentioned here. It also has an incredible version of basic with excellent new graphics abilities.
This is a great episode!! Thank you~
I am so sorry there will be less videos not because of you but because of what you explained last video, I really liked your videos over all other youtubers in this area
If I'm gonna get one of the higher-cost new retro-style computers, it's going to be this one. There's so much cool stuff about it. Makes the price tag worth it IMO.
Keep up the great work david. I look forward to your videos. Also came across a stash of old z80 comouters and ibscure sutff a few months ago you may be interested in taking a gander at
Great episode, thank you! 👍
I really enjoyed this overview, thank you. I know you are cutting back on the number of videos but if they are this good I will keep watching and enjoying your visits to yesteryear.
Thank you, David! What you forgot mentioning is the VIC-4 video controller, which is based around VIC-III chip that can be found in the original Commodore 65.
Pretty cool machine. Would've loved to have it as a kid.
I would love to see a recreation of an Atari 800.
There's a project from Poland called "RM 800XL" that's trying to create one. The product isn't available yet though.
@@HLubenow Thanks I will look for it. I hope it comes out soon. I had a Commodore and an Atari 800 in my Ham Shack in the mid 1980s
Someone could write an Atari 800 FPGA core for it. It's open source so it might happen someday. In fact, an FPGA Atari 800 core already exists for MiSTer so it might not be too much trouble to port it over.
I have an original Atari 800 I bought when in high school. It's just sitting in my closet. Been thinking of trying to sell it somewhere or give it to a computer museum. Used to play the crap out of MULE.
I'd love to see a port of Ultima IV and Ultima V with music for the system.
Thank you David for another, great video! Hoping to see more o'em this year ☺️
i do LOVE to see them!!! thank you David
Great video as a starter, please more about the MEGA65!
Is it just me or is the audio more "distant" in the talking heads?
Definitely. The audio at 0:35 onward is pretty naff.
agreed
Yeah, the HVAC was running while Dan was there, and I tried to filter that out some.
Personally I didn't notice anything.
@@ErrorMessageNotFound Eesh! Probably wanna get your ears tested! 😁
I think this is an excellent, comprehensive review - and you acknowledge the potential conflict of interest re the X16, but also don't see them as "competitors" but as fellow enthusiast devices who can learn from and support each other. One of the many reasons I enjoy this channel, it's a very supportive positive place!
Great stuff! Wishing you a great 2024!
As a longtime technical writer I swooned when I saw the spiral-bound user guide.
Would love to see the old Commodore bindings, as much of a pain as they were to actually use. Regular spiral's are common enough and fairly inexpensive. We do a lot of very small batch runs of them in my shop for training manuals and the like.
why are your uploads 720p now? it's so odd :(
I would like to see a longer video as well. I hate to think they guy flew all the way to Texas for a 14-minute video.
Great video! Love the comparison
This is great but... it's only at 720p. Why???
The Mega65 looks amazing!!!
Absolutely brilliant video , David , if was the 2 hour version , no doubt i would have watched it from start to end in a single sitting...
Good to hear from you on these dark cold days. The train was stunning, thanks for that.
Got my X16 today. Can't wait to hook it up, just need to get some of that hard-to-find "time" stuff.
My kind of 8-bit guy content ❤
Great episode! Very entertaining
It's great that this kind of computing/design is still happening. Also really cool that two creators of competing products can meet up and check out each others gear.
The MEGA65 looks like a nice complete computer, just plug it in and start using it 👍 It also seems like the old original 8 bit machines, C64, ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC and Atari 8bit have gained a lot in popularity over the last few years. Personally I find it a lot of fun to write code for the original machines.
I keep wondering if one can break even on game sales for old systems; like, ignoring your time to write code, can you sell at a price, enough copies, to pay for printing disks/pcbs/carts, boxes? I keep being tempted to write a few crazy games for various machines, but being able to break even would be a nice plus. (I wobnder which retro machines have the largest audience? Presumably C64 and NES or SNES, but you never know..)
@@skeezixcodejedi For something like C64 games there are companies who'll take care of the whole boxing, making disks, cassettes, cartridges, marketing and shipping, e.g. Protovision, but I can imagine they require the game to be original and high quality. Alternatively you can sell digital copies on itchio.
@@TheStuffMadeGood jumping off points, thanks!
Thanks to Dan. I know he was in the neighborhood (took a plane and a car to get in the neighborhood).
The first thing that came to mind when you introduced your guest was “Is that Leo Laporte?” 😊
Wonderful vid, David!!! Keep going 😛
Competition in any space is generally good for consumers. This means that the X16 version 2 boards need to really knock it out of the park to challenge the Foenix and MEGA65. Price vs features, I guess? Either way, I'm excited for the future of this niche.
Not to mention several other modern 8 bit machines that already exist, some of which sell at a much lower price point than any of the ones you mentioned.
The features are already set in stone. The next goal should be to make it as cheap as humanly possible, so as many people as possible can afford it.
Computers for the masses, not the classes.
X16 v2 is a freaking console game version.
First Shot looks REALLLLLLLY good.
Thanks, hoping to finish it soon 😅
This is so cool, I don't know even know where to begin.... I'd love to se more of this machine, as well as of the Commander. And I also fell in love with the awesome Oregon Trail t-shirt 💕
good video David. .the commander 16 and the mega 65 are both cool and interesting machines..
New videos from here are always appreciated. Constant gold.
What I wouldn't give for a spiral bound programmer's reference for the systems I work on now.
If the reference exists in a printable form, any good print shop can bind one in a coil spiral for you. I know I'd be happy to do it.
An excellent and reasonably through review as usual.
Back to the good stuff, thanks 8-bit-guy
Nothing I will buy, but I can understand the enthusiasts who will do so as I from time to time bring out my trusted HP-41CX for some programming 👍
At this point in history I think it's no longer applicable to call this a "Commodore 65 repro" or to call something else a "C64 repro" or an "Amiga 500 repro," etc. These days since it's all just FPGA cores, it's more "What flavor do you want your FPGA machine in?" and you can get a shell of whatever you want the look and feel to be like and swap out some OS stuff to boot straight into your flavor of choice.
The Mega 65 is isn't really a reproduction of anything. The C65 was only ever released in prototype form, and in extremely small numbers. Not all the prototypes were complete, and therefore not compatible with each other. The Mega 65 has added capabilities that the C65 didn't. It's essentially an expensive fantasy computer, created in an FPGA, that can run a handful of software titles written for a machine that never made it in to production.
it's basically emulation, I don't see the point, just run emulators on a PC.
@@pelgervampireduck It's not emulation. It's a circuit recreation. That's why FPGAs cost so much.
It is ironic however, that you're basically paying for more limitations. The Spectrum Next being incapable of loading the archival format for the platform without Pi assistance, for example. But they're authentic limitations. I mean, you CAN run a Spectrum core on the C65, but you don't really get the feel of either system without the associated hardware.
@@pelgervampireduck Wrong. FPGAs aren't emulation. When you write a bitstream for an FPGA, you aren't "programming" a CPU in a conventional sense. You're actually operating at a much lower level, actually manipulating the individual logic gates within the FPGA, linking them together in various ways that essentially exactly duplicates the functionality of something. Think of it as something similar in concept to a giant box of tinker toys. You slap them together according to a set of instructions (the bitstream) and you end up with a real working thing -- a bridge, or a robot arm, or a crane, or whatever -- that for all intents and purposes exactly duplicates the look and function of the original object. This is why FPGAs are so popular in the retro gaming community, because with the FPGA "toolbox" you can reproduce the behavior of whatever hardware (a Nintendo or a Genesis or whatever) with an extremely high level of accuracy, and without the performance penalty and inflexibility of traditional emulation.
@@pelgervampireduck What you're missing when running emulators on a PC is the feel of the system. These old systems used unique keyboard layouts and mechanisms, media and peripherals.
THEC64 gave you the C64 keyboard, so certain keyboard based games played the way they should, for example "Star Trek by Ian Gray" which used the function keys and the keyboard arrow keys. Playing the game on Vice on my Apple keyboard just doesn't feel the same and isn't as enjoyable for me.
The Mega65 gives you the C65 keyboard layout, if not the real key mechanism, ports and even a floppy drive so you can get it to work largely like a C65 would have.
It looks like the Mega65 includes a FPGA beast, and along its custom keyboard and case can explain its big cost.
But, anyway, the FPGA is the way to go with this kind of retro systems because you can still get a working system when the critical hardware is no longer around (The day WDC closes business the X16 would have a big problem, but synthesizable 6502 cores will always be around).
I myself did a board design with these systems in mind, but a much cheaper one using a Lattice FPGA and a Cypress SRAM. With that board I was able to recreate these computers:
- A ZX Spectrum 48K
- An Amstrad CPC 464
- An Apple II and IIe (search for apple ][ fpga replica)
- A Defender arcade.
And also other computers with with custom CPUs of my own design (8-bit, 16-bit, and even a 32-bit RISC-V) All using the same FPGA board, a VGA monitor, a PS2 keyboard, an SD card, and a game controller.
You are a solid combo. Great video :D
Please don't take this question as a complaint but is the max resolution for this video 720p? I think David often posts at at least 1080p, IIRC. I ask because I have seen instances where other CZcamsrs have posted vides up to 4K resolution and for some reason, that's not an option for me. Am I being throttled or is this just a lower resolution video?
The last few videos have been posted at 720p without explanation, perhaps he's hoping we won't notice? I suspect that higher resolutions are provided to patreon members but I have absolutely no basis for that belief. Also, for a while CZcams has been trying to steer some "unprofitable" viewers to lower resolutions which could be manually overridden by the viewer, this could have skewed David's analytics indicating that the majority of viewers watch in 720p, which could have lead him to drop producing his content at 1080p. It's all guesswork, though, until he addresses the issue.
@@ffsireallydontcare Well, that's odd. I am... cough... probably one of those people that don't generate revenue for them. But not all CZcamsrs have low resolution videos. I know of another guy (a fisherman in the UK) who I actually spoke with directly. He uploads in 4k, but often his videos for me are never higher than 1080p. Odd. For some reason, some channels seem to be throttled, but I have no clue if that's happening here.
@@RichardHartness I've noticed that sometimes the higher resolutions take a while to become available in certain regions. CZcams uses regional cache servers and try to direct your connection to the closest one, and if a video is popular it is likely to have all the higher resolutions locally available. Sometimes though, like for me as I'm on the end of a wet piece of string at the other side of the planet, higher resolutions take a while to populate and only become available when CZcams detects that I *really* want to watch the whole video.. Unfortunately this hasn't been happening for David's videos, so I suspect that he's actually posting at 720p.
Thanks for another interesting, info-packed episode. Nice to see the main studio room back in use again. I was wondering if something had happened to it!
A shout out for this gorgeous user manual ❤️
Nice video - please show us more of the Mega65!!
The mega 65 looks cool :)
I would love to see a series on programing in basic, for young people like me who hear it is easy to use and like to mess with stuff.
BASIC is easy to use vs assembly. But modern Python or JavaScript etc are easier. A lot of the problem BASIC solved was how to enter a program in the first place - microcomputers didn’t have the memory to run a text editor. Line editing was the way, which is very cumbersome to modern minds. Also, most versions of BASIC lacked library support for graphics and sound, meaning if you wanted to do any of that you’d be writing machine code expressed as incomprehensible sequences of PEEK and POKE commands. It’s a relic of its time.
I think Python would be the best choice if you just want to learn general programming, it’s about as easy as BASIC. I originally learned BASIC decades ago and I think of Python as BASIC evolved for more modern computer capabilities.
To me the best modern retro computer is a raspberry Pi running RiscOS natively on its Acorn Risc Machines processor. It doesn't run all Archimedes games but the original Archimedes did not run many games either. RiscOS contains BBC basic with its built in Assembler and its manual which is dated 2017 is available online. The version of RiscOS for the Pi that contains the most useful utility programs is RiscOS direct.
This looks very interesting david. Thanks for taking the time for the video, and not giving into the youtube algorithm!
Hey David, can we have more than 720p Video?
Like, the camera makes a decent, really good image, but a bit low res on a large 4k monitor.
Which is a bummer.
Is the camera not capable of 1080p? I think your older vids were 1080... they kinda looked better in my memory, but maybe that's the fault, my memory.
ive been waiting for my mega65 to ship for about 2 years now
Thank you for your patience! We're on track for fulfilling all preorders before the middle of this year. Actual dates TBD, announcements coming soon.
These videos are just too good
I just ordered an Aquarius+, it looks like it has a lot of potential! I'm looking forward to your review! There are a LOT of fantastic things going on in the retro-computer world right now, including some things for the TI 99/4a in the pipeline hopefully for the not-too-distant future.
By the way 8BG you ought to do a JAMMA arcade harness compatible version of the Commander X16, it sounds like it might be a good platform for people whom want to make their own coin-op arcade games and I know you're thinking of making some yourself.
Great to see another awesome 8-Bit Guy video about retro 8-bit systems. Also great to see you mention Foenix as well. I suspect the truely devoted 8-bit enthusiasts will eventually end up with all three systems! Especially from the point of developing and testing software that can be ported across all three systems.
So, now, Dave, you need to make a video about how we can write program for the 3 platforms ;) Will there be common libs ? tools ?
Damn, that's becoming pretty interesting :)
A development platform with built in functions based on the computer conpiling for, would be nice.
they are bringing attention to the potential here - write software that can target three different machines. Those feeling the entrepreneur tickle do the rest
I have written an assembler that runs natively on the Mega 65. Of course it will not output code for all three machines, but only for the Mega 65. It's called "Mega Assembler" and can output 6502, 4510 and 45GS02 binaries. It's available in the file area of the Mega 65 site.
Wow that spiral bound manual made me smile.
I really love these videos. I have an interest in old tech. More 90's tech than 80's but these intrigue me. I jsut wish I had the confidence to be as technical.
I'd watch the 2 hour video on this!
Now that's what I like to see, creators lifting each other up!
It's great that you don't see each other as competitors and want to support each other. Nice to see a MEGA65 video here - happy to see more!
Great video! I vote for a video talking about some interesting features on the Commander X16, such as: If you Can hook up a SNES mouse to it.
I love the attitude of lifting all boats with CommanderX16, Mega 65 and Foenix, very classy.
Mega64 the comedy group?
What is the outro music?
I love your videos even though I’m not into retro systems. I have no space! So I enjoy following you.
Cool, here's our first 2024 video from your new schedule, nice!
Glad to hear that they got a license from Cloanto to use the Commodore ROM code... Which brings up a question that would interest me.... Does VTech still own the Laser 128 ROM code or did they sell it off? Getting Apple to license their ROM code is likely a nonstarter, but I think a modern legal recreation of the Laser 128 might interest at least a couple of people.
Don't know. Isn't that extremely niche? I had a Laser VZ200 as a kid, and am not really interested in it, tbh.
@@Steril707 that’s fair, but there are a lot of Apple II fans that would probably throw their money at it. I just see VTech being more willing to License the Laser ROMs than Apple would.
Might be a good system to get started with FPGA development.
Or get an FPGA development kit for $500 less.
Thanks Dan.
I've been a long-time fan of your content, and I appreciate the effort you put into sharing your knowledge and passion for all things retro tech. However, I couldn't help but notice a shift in your last few videos that prompted me to comment.
Lately, it seems like there's been a noticeable increase in indifference in your videos. While I understand that everyone has their off days, I wanted to express how it has impacted my experience as a viewer. Your content has always been a source of inspiration and joy for me, but the recent tone has made it a bit challenging to enjoy. I believe your authenticity is one of the reasons so many people connect with your videos. Still, I wanted to share my perspective as a viewer who has found the last few videos somewhat depressing to watch. Perhaps it's just a temporary phase, and I trust that you'll find the balance that resonates with your audience.
Looking forward to more of your engaging content in the future. Keep up the great work, and I hope brighter days are ahead for both you and your videos.
Would be nice more content on mega65.
Nah I think his next 10 videos should be about the graphical updates to the video games his made then he should make a video complaint about low view count.
@@Amberlynn_Reid Enjoy the videos or dont.....personally I love 8-bit guy with what ever he does because his so informative and has some really cool projects that he does, if you dont like that then just dont watch he doesnt owe you anything. The guy is obviously struggling with things right now so he poured his heart out.....please do not kick someone when they are down.
@@Amberlynn_Reid I'd say that they're far more interesting to watch than whatever you do in your life. Just a fair opinion, really.
@@Amberlynn_ReidElijah is ignored here
I agree. Love all these new machines. Any chance of an Agon light review?
I'm not sure David would entertain that idea. 😂 I think Bernardo has touched a nerve by producing a computer that isn't too far away from what David called his "ideal" computer specifications, at a price that David initially hinted he wanted his own computer to sell for. But the X16 missed all the the targets David mentioned in his "ideal computer" video by a country mile. Bernardo even said he would design a 6502 version of the Agon 2 for about the same price as the Z80 version. I imagine that's when David started spitting blood and began sticking pins in effigies of Bernardo. 😉
Bernardo burnt bridges in the retro community by the way he went about writing his original article that slammed the X-16, the X-16 design team, and David Murray - Bernardo put his as*hole mode on full blast when he wrote that piece, then followed up by doubling down. These days Bernardo has been keeping a lower profile and not going out of his way to attack others in the retro community, but no one has forgotten what he did to the overall retro community - a lot of his groupies started going around and hate mongering. Bernardo started all of that. Totally unnecessary and the worst thing that have ever witnessed go on in the retro computing universe. Is a shame because Bernardo is super smart dude and an excellent board designer, given his professional career background. Is just sad to such gifted people be such complete as*holes.
@@TheSulross Go ride your BMX.
Great video - thanks very much for sharing
great video as always. Thank you.!!!