AWDRY VS. DALBY: The Conflict Between Author and Artist
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- čas přidán 4. 02. 2022
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Images and footage courtesy of:
The Unlucky Tug
Nicholas Jones
TTTE Wikia
SmurfyDan
Sodor Island Fansite
Music:
music.midwestcollective.us/al...
Thomas and Friends is copyright of Mattel.
This video is for general audience. - Zábava
When you think about it, you could also say, that Dalby's work kinda inspired the model makers of the TV series, coz they do look Dalby-ish in appearance
As a semi professional illustrator myself, I can sympathize with Dalby a little. The Rev Awdry sounds like the sort of client from my worst nightmares. However, as most clients tend not to know exactly what they want and getting them to tell you what you're exactly supposed tid raw can be like pulling teeth, Awdry (contradictorily) seems to be a dream, he knows what he wants and describes it in exacting detail.
I think the real issue is that Dalby didn't come from a background in children's books/came from a time when art for children was looked down upon and children were seen as dumb and accepting of anything they were given because they "didn't know better".
But Awdry knew, much like Rhol Dahl, both artists knew children understood things and talking (or drawing) down to them didn't work. Children were smart and observant.
In the end it wasn't Dalby's lack of skill, but his lack of respect for his audience that made things difficult.
And yes, as someone who spends a great deal of time drawing steam engines as accurately as I can, I understand how labor intensive such work is. However Dalby's behavior and attitude was unprofessional, Awdry wasn't much better though at least Awdry did give it the old collect try, as it were- with attempting to do the drawing himself. So at least he was aware he was a detail oriented rivet counter.
I guess the short version of all this is, as essentially a commercial artist myself I understand Dalby's frustration with Awdry, but as a rail enthusiast who's currently working on illustrations for a children's book I am more likely to side with Awdry because in hindsight, Awdry clearly knew what he was doing.
I feel like this a common problem when two tempremental 'alphas' collaborate, ones that are quite certain they know best and have no patience or filter around those who interfere with it. The common factor with Awdry's arguments with Dalby (and some other collaborators like the show's creators) was that the latter thought they knew better than Awdry, and Awdry was EXTREMELY blunt about what he thought about that, leaving both sides angered and insulted and being difficult with each other until ultimately ties are severed.
I do see a BIT of Dalby's POV since his work is arguably the most appealing to younger kids (to the point it shaped a lot of the TV series' aethetics) and ultimately Awdry was asking him to research a ton of industrial details in limited time pre-internet for what was likely a basic paying job. It was simple enough to Awdry, but Awdry was a railway enthusiast so OF COURSE this was all just simple knowledge to him. Granted it's not like Awdry didn't TRY to compromise or even outright offered to do the job himself so no wonder he resented being stuck with an illustrator who hadn't and WOULDN'T put in the effort, and it was only worsened by their tendencies to not so much state their opinion of each other as snarl or snide it in a demeaning way. They were in a way quite alike and that was part the problem.
Really you look at Awdry's storytelling and you can kinda tell this was Awdry's disposition, that authority that knew better shouldn't suffer fools. Duck vs Diesel, Toby vs Mavis, Duke's arc, multiple stories with the Controllers. Authority always won and the arrogant rookies who thought they didn't need teaching always got punished. The old guys were too blunt? They HAD to be. He was from his own POV, just being honest about uneducated collabotors who were being 'big headed' with his work, and besides, he TRIED to be reasonable and what did he get from THEM in return?
"Fuss-pot! Fuss-pot! Fuddy-duddy! Fuddy-duddy....."
That’s an interesting observation
Do you guys think that Awdry was too harsh on Dalby
@@JosephRailwayStudios2000 Not at all.
It's part and parcel working with a client.
@@TheGreyTurtleEntertainment Well some people think it is
6:26-6:41 HOLY SHIT. The absolute uncanny foreshadowing of what would occur forty years later.
I love how the Reverend used Dalby as a punching bag after he quit the series.
I must admit, whilst I love Dalby’s illustrations and am grateful that his made the series a success, I must admit, I have to entirely agree with Awdry. Dalby never showed enthusiasm or faith in his work, and didn’t care he was drawing things incorrectly. Not the right attitude to have at all.
Your right, it's like a little mistake at first but then you realize it's Almost in every book, sometimes a character has too many wheels or the character just wasn't drawn in the right area of sodor at all!, but let's be respectful to dalby, as a person, everyone gets respect as long as they don't hurt anyone in their lives, and I know that may go off topic the railway series a bit right now but that's my point really.. That's all
I can empathise with Dalby a bit under the case that this was pre-internet days and he had limited time and resources to make these drawing. He didn't exactly have an eager attitude about the whole thing, but Awdry himself just going "well go to a railway and draw the engines there' was REALLY oversimplifying. I don't think he at all empathised with the fact that not EVERYONE was a railway enthusiast like he was. Granted he did have a right to be upset about being stuck with an illustrator who wasn't one (especially since he DID offer to just illustrate the books himself, so was hardly a hypocrite on the matter) but I think that was a dispute to take out on the publishers who arranged it. I really think both sides had this "MY way is better and that guy is just being stupid" outlook that didn't help.
Ngl, I still find it interesting that, despite Awdry constantly conflicting with Dalby, the later's depiction of Engines 1 through 7 (as well as Duck), Terence, Bertie, Trevor, as well as Sir Handel's face were the ones chosen as the design style for the TV series Props.
I mean its probably because its the easiest to model
When I think of TV James, all I see is that shit eating big cheeked grin that only Dalby gave him. XD
Although Dalby does have a negative reputation for Awdry, his work really grabs lots of people, and it’s kinda one of the reasons I made some Dalby-styled engine models in Roblox, with Henry Mk2 being my latest one. Amazing video I will say. :)
I understand way Awdry wanted Dalby to get the engines driving wheels to look right for example. to me it sounds like Dalby didn't completely understand Awdry's love of railway engines
What if both Henry’s were brothers LOL
Its rather interesting that dalby didn't seem to care at all about the idea of setting consistency.
6:12 Dalby's mind:this series not gonna last long
the reality:sike! that's the wrong number
Everyone else: OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
has to be the most petty rivalry in history
8:26 In fairness; Pannier tank engines tend to look VERY similar. Heck, it wasn't until recently that i found out there were multiple iterations of Pannier type tank engines.
Let's be honest Dalby wasn't a perfect person but he wasn't a bad person either to put it to words I'll use a line from awdry himself: '... a please enough fellow... ' and let's give him respect, not for painting the railway series but as a person, everyone who didn't hurt anyone in their lives needs respect, and it's very sad that he died
While I love Gunvor and Peter Edwards illustrations, the Dalby ones are the first to come to mind for me
6:17 Very ironic statement by Dalby and considering eventually how popular the books series would become and later when the TV series started his illustration would be quite influencial to the series style!
Ayways great documentary seeing the Rev W Awrdy doing his own illustration was surprising it look good IMHO. I've always though the Rev can be a difficult person to work with especially when realism is major part of the illustration. But after watching this I now have a clear understanding of how both interact and can sympatized with both although later on it did boil over and eventually Dalby just moved on in the end.
Yeah, I know Awdry had a habit of being rather critical and sometimes rather insulting and short tempered with others handling his work and I thought that was the same deal with Dalby, but it seems like Dalby was just as curt and dismissive towards Awdry as vice versa, even straight up calling his series a no hoper. Heck maybe it was dealing with Dalby that made Awdry more over defensive in his later years.
Shame Dalby passed away only a year or so before Thomas and Friends began, and he could have seen exactly what key an influence his work was.
Adding to his irony the way he said the series would fade away is how his series about fittlewick harbour ended
I'd say C. Reginald Dalby is another example of separating the artist from the art. His artwork may be good, but when you're an artist, you have to try and put effort when you're working for a client. I should know.
Isn't that the truth.
Despite Awdry's reputation for being difficult, I would give my front teeth to have a client who could give me these kind of tiny editorial details. it's a rare happenstance that a client knows what they want and will then tell you exactly what that is without having to pull teeth!
tbh I wish that his illustrations weren't what Britt and David based the TVS models off of
@@aceproductions43 I see your point.
If that wasn't the case, they could have used more accurate models.
But at the same time, I can also see why they used Dalby's illustrations. They made the designs look simpler.
Dalbys art style was very good. His perspective and consistency was something of another story however.
To be honest, Dalby's backgrounds and scenery are fantastic. It's the best part of his work. (Also nice Awdry impression XD, great video!)
Dalby created the Glacier Mints logo? That's cool!
I guess it was just a case of 2 egos clashing. I understand both sides to it and it's a shame they couldn't work out their differences
I have to say that it really feels like Awdry's frustrations with the likes of Dalby and other collaborators like the book publishers sometimes seeped into his work. Awdry's stories tended to be rather consistently pro-authoritarian, or at least for authority that actually knew what it was talking about (and he certainly knew what he was talking about with his own railway world more than anyone else). Mavis vs Toby, Duck vs Diesel, the big engines' strike, ALL the Controllers, they all had the same outcome, the insolent protege gets punished and proven wrong because they thought they knew better than the authority and even dared to think they were being 'mean' to them just because they wouldn't suffer their stupidity with a smile.
Heck the large majority of horrible things happening in these stories are from characters thinking they're experts about a world they're not experienced with. There's a noticable evolution in rebuttal as well. In the early books like Thomas the Tank Engine it's more sympathetic, "Oh he's just excited, we all make mistakes", but as time marches on in the books, Sodor has no sympathy at all for insolent rookies. The experienced ones who made this railway have a temper or hubris too? They EARNED it. Why should they have patience for fools?
Only the TV series tended to go for 'you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar' type lessons and sometimes take the authoritarians down a peg, and Awdry infamously got his ties cut with the TV producers too for calling them too 'big headed' with his work. (Granted as observed by interviews and even his books, he was rather dry witted, and even worked in a railway himself. I get the feeling to some degree Awdry was just an old fashioned guy used to rough talking work environments and some remarks others found insulting and harsh were just banter to him, he made several jabs at Dalby in the books themselves but they never seemed intentionally 'hateful', just playfully mocking a difficult person).
Music Used:
[0:28] HOME - Twisted Light
[3:36] HOME - Still Life
[6:41] HOME - Atlas
[9:27] HOME - Resonance
I grew up in peace and quietude every time I listened to these stories and looking at Dalby's illustrations, his beautiful, realistically drawn illustrations made me think of them as the best illustrations in children's literature because of how similar they are to photographs. It made me think that these engines existed as...again, how Dalby drew and painted them❤
Even if Dalby wasn't a perfect artist for the job, my opinion is that if it wasn't for his colourful and realisically drawn illustrations, then Thomas wouldn't have been loved by all of us 🚂🚋
And because I want to be a children's illustrator as much as a writer, C. Reginald Dalby was one of the artists who's work has inspired me and sparkled my imagination🖌✍📚
although dalby's illustration wasn't my favorite, but his ilustration wasn't too bad.
My fav is Peter Edward though
Fascinating insight and almost like the tension in Pink Floyd or, as there were two people here, between Simon and Garfunkel when Artie and producer knew Bridge Over Troubled Water needed that final verse and Paul left the fraught discussion seemingly resolute that it did not but, only to return with one the following day. Sail on silver girl, sail on by… as the bass guitar picks out angelic notes before this final verse and the piano swells and rolls like moving waves on the deepest ocean. It’s impossible to imagine the song or the books without these now. How such divisions in thought were never meant to divide us but, rather bring us closer, toward a better conclusion, to unite us. There has to be love to hold such tumultuous seas ❤
1:04 oooooooh new stuff on awdry sketches on James
"Your ugly fizz is enough to frighten anyone. You're like-"
Anyway so I like the other guy's since he made very good pictures that look like the concept of the model series.
Awdry was like: "Colors, imagination yes yes, nice stuff but have you heard of *R E A L I S M* ?
3:14 The sketches make James look like a GSWR 403 Class for some reason.
03:28
Henry is gonna hit that post
Crazy how one of the worst artists set the look for the models in the official series, and the same looks would be for the merchandise and the CGI series.
It looks like a actual cartoon artist
01:05
Like you could do better than Dalby, Awdry
What do you mean by that?
@@reecenewman8308 His faces for James made him look like he had a seizure
@@dalekinthewater4708 Ironic you mentioned that
@@reecenewman8308 What do you mean by that?
@@dalekinthewater4708 Because James' behaviour took a (bit of a) nosedive when Sir Topham Hatt gave him an infamous quote about his paintwork
Michael Rosen likes the railways series
What else have I not known
Also Dalby was clearly wrong lmao
I honestly wasn’t surprised to find that Michael Rosen likes it. Almost makes sense.
Green catipilar with red strips just chilling between the conflict 😅
Can you do the history on the Sodor island Foreign fan page because I love this style of videos
“Ugly indeed? I’m-“
“A green caterpillar with red stripes!” Continued Thomas firmly. “You crawl like one too.”
Stories about a tug boat to rival the railway series. Lmfao. Cardona must be a fan of Dalby.
It’s rather understandable for Awdry and Dalby to act in these circumstances. From there perspectives, you can kinda understand the emotion built up between. Awdry was really passionate about his work on Thomas and wanted to make it look like a real place in the eyes of children. Dalby was an artist who was passionate but seemed more so on scenery with trees, mountains, buildings, etc. From what I could find, Awdry didn’t really have a say in Dalby being the new illustrator at the time. Now, while I see and understand and see Awdry’s frustration from the inconsistencies to the off proportions, and the children writing in to him about the work that art that didn’t do, you can see that the strain is only getting worse. I do feel that Dalby should’ve taken Awdry’s help as Awdry seemed patient enough to help him at least but from Dalby’s perspective in which Awdry is making a fuss over an imaginary island, it seems that that wasn’t doing it for Dalby.
Now I don’t know if Awdry and Dalby ever made up (I think I heard CZcamsr The Unlucky Tug say they did at some point) but I hope that they ended things on better terms then when they abruptly stopped all together. Dalby may have had trouble with the illustrations but they really helped boost Thomas, and I hope he knew that.
R.I.P Reverend Wilbert Awdry, Reginald Dalby, others who knew them, those who worked on Thomas, and Thomas himself
Is Matt Cooper doing the voice-over in this video?
I wonder what Dalby thought of these insults.
Sometimes I feel that Wilbert was a bit too hard on Dalby.
Can't really blame either of them. Both of them were stubborn old men.
9:27 what's the names of this music this is I want to vib to
Don’t know why considering hiring if he believed he was going to do a shit job anyway…
What music 6:42?
At 3:30 its neat to see James as a 10 wheeler. What sort of British 4-6-0 you think he could be?
If I remember correctly, the B12s hade the same wheel configuration. Take Alfred the B12 for example
I bowel movemented
Dalby's Art Colors Are Brilliant, But I Don't Like How He Drew Duck.
would it have been possible back then for the artist to have drawn the pictures of the real life engines if he'd asked BR?
It was the days of steam - you could go down to Leceister Station, buy a platform ticket, and just watch the trains go by for hours, taking photos and making reference sketches. You see this in action in the Peter/Gunvor Edwards RWS pictures, drawn so close to real-life reference (often as a result of the Edwardses making trips to visit the prototype railways) that there are parts of Sodor that are a 1-to-1 match to parts of the Cambrian Coast Line, Ravenglass, Snowdon Mountain, etc.
it seems that i’m one of the only people in this comment section with this opinion but i am sorry i genuinely *HATE* dalby’s art for the early railway series. *literally.* it’s just so ugly to me! it’s too cartoony, too inconsistent, too overly saturated, and *way* too childish for me. and the way he drew faces was hideous! look i know it’s a book series for young kids but c’mon i think kids deserve than what he did. that’s my take anyway! *PLEASE DO NOT CRUCIFY ME.*
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Granted the faces are an odd critique to me since it felt like his facial designs were the ones that most inspired the TV face masks (with the exception of Payne for Thomas and Kenney for the Troublesome Trucks). NO other artist gave James that iconic huge cheeked grin for example.
6:10-6:17 boy was he wrong. also 8:02 why would you want to compare yourself to one of the most despicable beings of recent history Dalby?
Awdry: Are you really prepared to jeopardize your career over this?
Dalby: CAREER? You call this a career? Being constantly berated by my boss over the drawings of silly trains?
Awdry: SILLY TRA-? SILLY TRAI-!!
In my opinion Dalby is the worst artist out of the entire books cause the emotions are awful
Dalby sounds like he was lazy. I’m wondering if he’s related to the current CEO of Mattel