I'm glad I found your channel a few weeks ago as this is the best tier list video I've seen. You're fair, realistic and rational in your judgement and completely put any bias you have aside. Thank's to the algorithm for suggesting one of videos, because all of your content is solid. I think your channel is criminally underrated and I'd love to see that change, and I think the best way to do so would be collaborations with Sensei Seth (who you mentioned) as well as the other channels in that corner of martial arts CZcams, ie Icy Mike, Metrolina Martial Arts, Wonderboy, etc. I'd love to see what would come of you guys interacting.
Glad you found the channel as well. I’d love to collaborate with those guys. They seem very open to training with other people so I’ll reach out to each one of them
And this is why... in my opinion... for street self defense, a deep and heavily practiced understanding of boxing with a wee bit of wrestling knowledge on how to avoid being taken down or slammed and how to quickly get back up on your feet, is best.
I’d say both the boxing and the wrestling need to be heavily practiced. You can’t easily defend against takedowns with just a wee bit of wrestling knowledge . You should be competent in both.
This is actually a very objective analysis of different grappling systems. I highly appreciate it. I personally hear all the time that "BJJ is the be all end all of all martial arts "
I’ve legitimately have never heard any bjj practitioner say bjj is the only thing you need, I really just think it’s other martial artists such as yourself use a straw man fallacy. Every bjj practitioner I’ve ever met and talked to either also either does wrestling or boxing/kickboxing/Muay thai
@@conorfiggs234 i would love to agree but i disagree. Lots of bjj guys are purists and imo the system has definitely gone the route of over complexity / sport over self defense which is fine as long as people accept it. The major value of bjj comes at blue belt but after that a lot of it is hyper specific to beating other bjj players and your time would be better spent in takedowns and situational training and dealing with strikes of pure self defense is the goal.
Brilliant. This is probably the best of these martial arts tier videos that I’ve seen so far. I basically agree with all of it. My only strong disagreement is about Judo, which I would put at least A Tier, if not S. I think it’s one of the best martial arts for self defence, on par with boxing. High level judoka do very well in real fights.
@@inside_fighting I don’t think the grips issue is a huge problem for self-defence. For one, it’s not that easy to stop a skilled judoka from getting a strong grip and launching you, and judo techniques can also be applied from other positions, like the clinch or an arm around the waist. Most people trying to punch or kick a skilled judoka are also going to be very vulnerable to having their feet swept as they come forward.
I would not put it s tier. however a tier can be argued as its quite a well rounded grappling style more so than Greco-Roman and freestyle because of the ground game also every country does judo abit different. Mongolian style is more underhook over hook focused than the Japanese style which is very sleeve and lapel judo is great but it can't be s tier because combat sambo is obviously better suited for self defence
@@user-yi9ck9lf2n I say S Tier because Judo has proven itself in real world combat. You can find many videos of people defending themselves with Judo techniques. It was also used extensively by both police and military.
@@MrCBTman but many of the others have proven there style in real world combat the thing that stop it being s tier is this. All grappling styles are very similar they have most of the same moves but work a little different depending on rules sambo and judo are almost identical but the things that make sambo better is 1 the rules in sambo if I throw someone with osoto gari then I get rolled through that's 4 points to me and 4 points to him but he's winning because he scored after and he now has dominant position in judo if the same thing happens I just win regardless of where we end up after the throw and number 2 sport sambo has more options you can grab the legs for example which in some ways is a bad thing as then you have a more bent posture which Is not how people fight but over all I think its better to have more attacks and have more defenses to more things and 3 there's combat sambo that's automatic s tier as its all aspects of hand to hand combat. If we are talking just sport sambo and sport judo I'd still rate sambo slightly higher a+ tier because of the reasons I said but judo is a tier in my opinion its great but sambo is better so it can't be s tier
One big problem I noticed in BJJ, which is Pull Guard or Butt Scooting. It's so normalized and habitual in MMA & Grappling competition especially in ADCC and IBJJF to a point that I'm not surprised if a competitive BJJ grappler is killed in street fight because of the subconscious attempt on Pull Guard.
Shuai Chiao teacher here. You are absolutely right, we have striking in our system as well as clinch work, wrestling and a few ground submissions, not just throws. Great video by the way!
Bart Vale was a karate guy who never really learned how to wrestle properly. Frank, Ken and Bass were all waaaay better wrestlers, both standing and on the ground.
This is a really good well thought out video, can't believe it took this long for CZcams algorithm to find and suggest it for me. I always felt the BJJ classes I was doing was missing the throwing parts no matter how much instructor said it was best for self defense.
I go through a new phase with Aikido probably every few weeks at this point. I spent probably a couple thousand hours training it in Japan in a pretty rigorous environment. I definitely agree it’s a supplemental system and, even more than that, I think it’s a system better started after you have some experience in something else. And that isn’t because it’s secretly super advanced or whatever else. Mostly it’s because Aikido spends a lot of time developing more subtle corners of your primary game. I’m a Judo person, for example, and the interpretation for Aikido that I’ve landed on is that it’s mostly grip fighting, just highly stylized. But I would never have recognized that without prior experience and been forever frustrated as to why my stuff wasn’t working. Grip fighting is hardly the only thing, though. It’s also big on drilling into you very precise, smooth movements. The wrist locks, of course. In my opinion, the best break falls in martial arts-which has little to do with street fighting directly, but it makes training safely and longer much more of a possibility. It’s a pity the art is in such a weird place. On one hand you have Aikido guys that get very “woo woo” with it and on the other you get guys who really aren’t even experienced enough in their own art making value statements from afar. There really is a lot there, I just also think it’s hard to sell more casual martial artists on a “supplemental system.” From a pure consumer standpoint, the layman typically has a hard time understanding why they should drop a few extra hours a week into a martial art that doesn’t directly correlate to them winning sparring sessions immediately. Basically, I see Aikido is a polish for the rougher edges of other systems. By itself kinda meh outside of some health benefits, but together over time with really anything in the S, A, and B tiers and I think it’s worthwhile. EDIT: Worth noting as well that Chin Na often comes attached to a lot of other Chinese martial arts (Shuai Jiao included). To me, Aikido is to Judo and Karate what Chin Na is to Chinese martial arts. There is no evidence to support that that relationship influenced its founding, but I think it fills the same niche, just in the Japanese ecosystem of martial arts.
Great post and i agree with all of it. I feel the exact same way about it and if aikido was tacked on to other styles like kyokushin or judo it would be amazing.
The principles behind Aikido are solid; breaking the opponent’s balance, disrupt the base. It is using different motions than JJJ, relying on larger circles, with more emphasis on wrist controls. It isn’t based on some mystical “ magic” power, it still obeys the laws of physics and motion. I myself am not an aikidoka, but I have read extensively on it, and I do see how it has evolved over time. Ueshiba’s early version was heavily influenced by Takeda’s Daito Ryu instruction, and included more of a focus on atemi, and if stories of his fighting prowess as a young man are to be believed, it was a highly effective combat system. It’s not that Aikido is not effective, it’s that the focus has changed. It’s no longer the solution to the problem that it once was. The task for the tool has changed. Those who hate on it can be compared to people who try to pound nails with a screwdriver then complain that screwdrivers don’t work. It doesn’t work for the task they want done, so it must be useless. But there is no such thing as a useless tool, and that belief I have is the reading my tool box and my workshop are overflowing with tools, many I many never need, but you never know if or when you will. All martial systems are solutions to problems. But you must properly define the problem. Problems change over time and with them the solutions. Consider this, if you look at the police defensive tactics systems and the military combative systems from the 50s into the 70s, you will find that many of them included Aikido as one of their influences. Judo and/or Jujutsu, wrestling, boxing and some form of Karate, Okinawan, Japanese or Korean. So, apparently it was considered to be useful.
@@inside_fightingHapkido, or, better yet, gongkwon yusul. Gongkwon yusul is pretty much my dream art; kyokushin style striking but with beautiful Korean kicks, judo throws, some ne waza with basic striking, and that aikido polish. The best of the traditional martial arts and MMA worlds. Like a hard-core taekkyeon. Speaking of gongkwon yusul, where would you say it ranks? I say above the pure grappling arts, with the potential to match sambo, but maybe a tier below because it doesn't seem like they compete much or do a lot of hard sparring (other than kyokushin style body punches and leg kicks).
Sometimes a style suits a person and even technique can apply,training within styles will teach one to apply their particular method and realize if it can adjust to pressure and adverse situations in terms of self defense. It’s great how diverse and the visibility of systems are on CZcams channels and other media outlets. Martial arts is far more available and mainstream than those of us growing up in the 60s and 70s. We continue to learn and adapt and any system that allows that perspective has worthwhile attributes.Practice practice practice.. thanks for your channel being so broad minded in viewing the arts.Peace…
I appreciate this honesty. Probably the most flak you'll get is from the one on C (not saying it for those who haven't seen it yet). It's also good to know that you tried to stay on the self-defense aspect and seeing your "pain" on some of the arts that you have history of makes this tier list heartfelt.
Thanks very much. Rather be honest with myself. I can love a style and still see it’s faults… especially after dedicating my life to it. I still do love it very much but the popularity has maybe hurt it a bit and i hate the cult mentality it sometimes has.
@@inside_fighting Will you be making a striking tier list? It would definitely ruffle a lot more feathers than this one, lol! I can already see the rage of Muay Thai, Boxing, and TKD.
I went and tried a Japanese Jiu Jitsu class last night. I think I agree with your assessment. The stuff they taught was absolutely vicious compared to techniques in Judo or Wrestling, but the flip side of that was that it couldn't be done with any aliveness. I could see this stuff being a great add on to really mess people up if you are already a solid grappler from a style that regularly pressure tests.
Really appreciate that. Catch and aikido is a unique and great mix. Catch is one of the few systems outside aikido that has such advanced wrist locking so i can see lots of crossover but with a completely opposite mentality which would be great
Found this Channel recently and yes you might get some slack on the BJJ placing but I agree with you. I´m 67 and a long time Judo practitioner and for the last 5 years been doing BJJ and in my youth did lots of full contact Karate (bare knuckle) and my sparring was a mix of Judo and Karate and it was great for street self defense . Have to mention my school does Gracie Jujitsu and do both sport and self defense. Happy New Year to you and keep it up.
As a Purple in BJJ and 2nd Dan oin Judo I agree with this video. im also glad my BJJ is just a refined version of my Judo ground work. I rarely work from guard and my BJJ game is all about Throw > top control > submission but agree with this ranking on both sports. Although id place Sambo with Judo. although he talks about combat sambo and sambo he still talks about Sambos strike awareness which is really only liked to combat sambo. think he should have seperated Sambo and combat sambo and looked at each in isolation. id then put Sambo with Judo and Combat Sambo with MMA
I’m really, really enjoying this channel! This tier video on grappling systems was very informative and helps me focus on which direction I might take in the future. There are several systems listed here that San Francisco offers, though not as many at the top of your ranking as I’d like. Still, more than most places probably. (Now, where does this 58 y/o latecomer get started, lol?) Just out of curiosity, where does Systema fit in the world of martial art/self defense systems? Have you done a video on it? Thanks for the great work and the amazing channel you’ve created!
I considered that… i would have to give old school GJJ A tier based on all the old Gracie videos alone where they went out and dojo stormed 👀 those videos got me in to bjj 😅
my personal preference among these very good martial arts based on (or more) grappling is Pankration- for his variety of techniques likewise strikes, holds, kicks, throws, etc.
Nice 💯 agree. I personally did a few years of amateur boxing & kickboxing, 3 years in high school in the wrestling team & some mma as an adult would personally love to learn some sambo & combat wrestling at some point. Thanks.
Why did t you just make 2 tabs Sport Sambo and Combat Sambo? I like your assessment on judo. I feel the same on all your points. You are right most judoka don’t cross train with say wrestlers to pick up hand fighting . However, for those that do it’s less of a learning curve for judoka to pick up wrestling or wrestlers to pick up judo than one thinks. Lots a similarities. I know I’d love to spend some time training with Greco guys. That looks like a crazy awesome system to learn! Also it makes me sad that BJJ is becoming like Olympic judo. In that it is obsessed with sports specific training and goals. I really respected and miss the old style Gracie jiujitsu that was oriented towards dealing with self defense altercations. I like BJJ a lot, but if I were to pick 1 style to stick with in the long haul, the self defense oriented old Gracie style is the one I’d choose. That’s what got people interested in BJJ in the first place! No disrespect to competitors though. If competition is your thing it’s the most popular and numerous anyway. Great episode!
Yeah, I'd been training Judo 7 or 8 years before going to train Wrestling formally, and it didn't take much time to get used to the lack of the gi. Ippon Seoi nage and Uchi Mata translated particularly well. Plus Wrestling is just a good thing to do period.
I agree with most of your categorizations, especially your ratings of sambo and catch. A system that may be considered a form of Japanese jujutsu, is Danzan Ryu. Actually it can be classified as a Hawaiian system. It was developed as a “ street practical” version of jujutsu. It was once very aggressive, with an emphasis on quickly and decisively ending a confrontation, stressing joint breaks over submissions, and was spar heavy. I’m basing this assessment of it on my experience with it in the late 1980s, and I do realize that the training emphasis on martial systems can change ad time goes by. It includes striking and low level kicking, being that it’s founder, Henry Okazashi had trained in Shorin Ryu and boxing. It’s grappling was based not only on Japanese jujutsu, but on wrestling (I believe it was Greco-Roman) and Kapu Kuialua. It also includes stick and blade techniques from eskrima. Okazashi was so admired as a self-defense instructor, that his school was not forced to close during WW2 , like those of other Japanese instructors, and he was selected to provide US Army personnel,including Alamo Scouts, hand-to- hand combat training. When it comes to judo, where would you put pre-1960s Kodenkan judo or WW 2 era combat judo? How would you rate Hapkido? Something to mention, one of those responsible for the creation of shoot fighting was catch wrestling great, Karl Gotch. Overall, well done sir. I look forward to your upcoming videos.
I think pre ww2 judo was A tier and very effective. Far more awareness of self defense and less hyper dynamic exciting “Olympic” sport based approach to the system. Also a lot more ground awareness. I have limited experience with hapkido but have some such a range of quality. The hyper traditional schools that have no sparring are a good supplemental style in a similar way to jjj imo. Karl Gotch always deserves a shout out :) i agree.
I've studied Danzan-ryu, and you're right; it's next level. But I do need to correct one thing, the founder's name is Okazaki, not Okazashi. Henry Seishiro Okazaki. He also trained with the founders of Kajukenbo.
At first I was just going to fast forward to the end. But then I saw the list at the end and said "oh snap this man got some hot takes" so I had to listen.
Sound logic here! This all makes perfect sense. Though I'd be curious to get your thoughts on Tenshin Aikido, Steven Seagals variant of it. He brought out a lot of its Aikijutsu roots and added Jujitsu, karate, and even hand deflections based on sword parrying techniques. I find his version has some really interesting methods of entry into those jointlocks. If it were trained with MMA added to it, a person might develop excellent skills against multiple attackers, as it has many methods of attack a person's extremities and takes them down instantly with pain. I'm thinking fingerlock to the ground and quick knee to the face type stuff. I pulled it off a few times in street fights.
@@inside_fighting I did! I really enjoyed that 👍👍 Those techniques looked excruciating and his insights were quite intelligent. Another channel I enjoy watching is Lenny Sly's Rogue Warriors. He was trained by Seagal's top students and works at making it practical for self defense. Definitely worth a look.
I had a friend who grappled that visited Mongolia for half a year and came back, it turned him into a different kind of beast and made him really tough to take down. Maybe it would have been different if he didnt already train, but it seems cool!
If I may challenge the premises, by adding that 95% of self defense is not being in a physicall fight in a non controlled environment at all. That said, if the situation occurs, then your list is absolutely correct. Wouldn't class Chin na as a martial arts, but as the way arm bars (and stuff...) are taught in wushu 🙂 Totally agree on JJJ : pisses me off because could be a great sparring place for experienced judo and karate guys ...
Funny my son inlaw was asking me what I thought for self defense. And I gave him almost the same Ideas you are saying. Other than Sambo as finding a place to train it is almost impossible.
As a BJJ guy I get why it may be lower rank. A lot of schools don’t have great takedowns and sweeps. Personally my gym is very good with working on the takedowns and overall game which is why I really like it but in general there are a decent number of Mcdojos
Broadly agree. I train in a traditional jj, but unlike some of the other clubs, we actually also train and compete under judo rules, and also do a decent amount of bjj rules. Also our instructor has a lot of full contact karate experience, and grew up in NY in the 1970s... so he has seen some stuff. So we spend about 1/3 judo, 1/3 self defense traditional jj (but using critically examined and modified techniques - "This is a drunk uncle technique" or "Now, nobody's going to grab your wrist like this and just stand there..."). 1/3 ground fighting. We don't emphasize striking. The traditional jj striking is embarrassing (terrible, and such small portions), but a lot of the guys have backgrounds in striking anyway (karate, boxing, kickboxing or other stuff) We've noticed the guys who just do the traditional can do a beautiful demo that they are completely unable to reproduce under pressure, their posture, strength and conditioning just aren't great. For some of the traditional practioners it is a lifestyle hobby, like aikido, which is fine, except some of them view themselves as modern day samurai, which gets a bit embarrassing for everyone (we tend to view ourselves as combat sport practitioners with a liberal dash of applications)
I think its soo important to start on the feet every class. Also you need to put on gloves from time to time. I think bjj really depends on the person doing it.
@@inside_fighting I have a mixed bag of training like you. But my most used fighting systems in the street were Goju and HS Wrestling. In my view an MMA attitude toward self-defense makes perfect sense.
Hello brother, I would like to know what you think of Luta Livre since it is a combination of Judo and Catch wrestling that were very high in the tier where would you put it?
Do you consider luta libre a separate grappling art? And you should do a tier list of some striking arts, especially the ones that add a bit of grappling like sanda.
I was tempted to add in Luta livre but my feelings would be very similar to shoot/mma on it. Those systems fall in to a similar family for me. I’ll definitely do a tier list on striking
Really liked this overview. Learned new things. Very informative. Excuse my ignorance, what is the difference between Shoot wrestling and Shooto? They sound similar. My understanding is that Shooto is a Japanese MMA organisation. Similar to Pancrase or Pride back in the day perhaps. Whereas Shoot wrestling is a Japanese (catch inspired) wrestling style, not MMA. Anything I missed? Cheers!
Shoot fighting , shoot wrestling, are all offshoots of each other. Shoot fighting typically mma based training. Shoot wrestling was more the catch aspects… shooto is/was an mma organization based or inspired by the above..
Interesting video but I would have to move Aikido up to a solid C. Maybe a C+. Depending on the school. * I trained seriously for about 18 months in the UK doing traditional Aikido and yes, that style would definitely be E tier as it was mostly slow motion drills and I doubt I could have made any of it work in a real self defence situation. However, when I lived in Japan (Kansai region) I dropped into an Aikido class at an average local sports centre where they taught more of a sports style and had a really casual McDojo atmosphere going on. Almost disrespectfully casual. (Kids playing around on the edge of the mat, lots of laughter and ignoring of the teacher etc. The opposite of what you'd expect in Japan) And yet, what they did do was constant full commitment sparring. Flat out, full tempo. It was like Judo on steroids. And yep, when I joined in, I had my ass kicked so badly I never went back :-)
I've seen grappling for self defense being underestimated for decades .But I feel it's getting overestimated these days ( this is just my opinion ) . Obviously grappling (or throwing ) is a great skill to have for self defense . When I look back , my Judo training saved my ass the few times I got in a real fight. It's also great for controlling aggressive people if you work with potentially aggressive patients /clients for example. The problem with BJJ and other ground grappling styles ( for self defense ) is that one needs to be really good at it . Because there are no weight classes or 'one versus one ' rule. If two guys attack you (you'll be probably toast anyway) but you can potentially hold them off with punches & kicks. Grappling one guy leaves the other guy free to attack you. A bigger guy that can punch is also pretty difficult to get under ' grappling control' That 'combat /shoot wrestling looks practical .It's the first time I've seen that.
there's plenty of footage of people with decent boxing taking down multiple opponents quickly, I have yet to see one person effectively grapple multiple opponents.
I don’t disagree at all. It’s one component of fighting that can be very useful but the most important part of training it is the ability to stay standing or get back to your feet. If you are a boxer and get taken down and can’t get back up… that’s a problem. Most of the b-S tier listed will solve that
@@inside_fighting No i also don't disagree with you.Just giving a counter argument. Obviously training as much as possible different styles is the best there is. MMA changed the way people train., and kids these days are far more 'all round fighters' then I used to be. But in a real fight there's no referee saying ' start the kumite / fight' So what often happens in some bar or club, (or wherever)is some A-hole suddenly punching or elbows someone in the head. and so KO or near KO someone before they even have the chance to use their skills. It often takes a humbling beating to prepare one for real life fighting . This is and always will be the sad reality of violence.
@@yamiyomizuki That's it. Also, one must be pretty confident & well trained to take a fight with some unknown guy to the ground. Especially a bigger dude.
@@spiritualanarchist8162 i agree fully. My biggest problem with sport systems is they don’t prepare you for the surprise and intense aggression of a street fight
Great video. I have no specific gripes with the rankings. Also i havent trained most of these so i wouldnt even know 😂 But i love how simply you brokedown the 3 parts of self defense. I try to train this way when sparring.
I like how much knowledge you have about these styles before speaking on it (a lot of these tier lists dont even know anything about the style..) but i wonder.. self defence for who? The champions for these sports, or the average joe? I do judo, it suits me for not being that aggressive. Catch would be cool but its too aggressive for me to want to train. I want to go to work the next day.. etc etc
Honestly it's impressive how much bjj fell in the public opinion : 5-6 years ago pepole talked about it as if it was the ultimate single mode of fighting in wich you could break apart anyone due to how much they drilled and practiced techniques ... Now it almost sounds like takwendo in that it's an overly specialized fighting style that doesn't prepare pepole for fighting ... I think it's how martial arts work : The more they become popular the more they get gamified and so they need to essentially become games ...
Quite good analysis, and as a lifelong martial artist and having trained in most of these styles, I completely agree. My only quibble is that you didn't really address the biggest litmus test of a grappling-based self defense system: training on how to defend against punches. Punches are super common in self defense situations, and if your art doesn't address it AT ALL (Judo, BJJ, wrestling, etc), it should automatically be at C or lower tier. If it has fake or ineffective responses (Aikido, JJJ), F tier, since it will actually make you a worse fighter in the situation. And if it incorporates punch defenses directly (SAMBO, MMA, Shoot fighting, etc.), S tier. If it is easily incorporated with just an extra couple of lessons (Catch, etc), then A tier.
I want to train Catch but can't find the gym in Ireland. What do you think about taking NoGi BJJ instead? Would it be fair to say NoGi BJJ = NoPin Catch??
There are some Folkstyle Wrestling arts that I'd like your take on such as: Chidaoba (GEO), Ssireum (KOR) & Schwingen (SUI). There are some countries in Africa that are trying to rebuild their Folkstyle by bringing in Ssireum instructors. Also, there are Olympians from Chidaoba, with 🏅 medals in Freestyle, Judo, & Greco. How does Schwingen compare to Glima?
I believe for self-defense, as far as grappling and take downs and such, if your able to throw someone to the ground when they attack you then you have a second or two to run away to a safe area. Anything more is fighting and not self defense. My own opinion. And really anything that your able to flee even if you appear to be a coward or giving them your last dollar and getting away with your life is self defense. But as far as grappling and wrestling goes, if they have to get up you can run in that short time...
Bjj is very much worth it. It’s a great martial art that will open your mind to body mechanics in a way many others won’t. For bjj to be better I’d add wrestling of some kind and also make sure that i train against strikes. Boxing and bjj together is a great combination but just be aware to develop yourself to be aware of strikes in training.
In my experience (35 years Pak Mei, Long Ying, Hung Gar, CLF) your supposition that “Chin na” is not a system unto itself is correct. It’s a component of various Chinese martial arts, a category that is used to describe the grasping, choking, pressure point, and joint locking/breaking attacks. When we learn it or use it, it is not independent of the other parts of the art.
What makes you say that? I’ve always encountered it as a subset of techniques, that are part of a complete art. Punching, kicking, wrestling, and kham na (qin na), being the 4 components in question. Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming has written about the subject and refers to it in this sense.
Your channel is in my top 3 of martial arts CZcams channels, and you are extremely knowledgeable about fighting and martial arts. Didn’t even know you’re involved with Hollywood shit, but I’m sure it’s gay and I would hate it.❤ Great video, agree with your reasoning. Wish I could train with you.
So I'm looking for a system to use the elbows and knees and I like hubud lubud for anti knife 🔪 drills ans wing chun elbows you said you trained pma and silat what you thinking just quickest system to neutralise the Threat?
If you want effective knife training a good Filipino martial arts school will be up your alley and you will also get the empty hand aspects as well if it’s a style that has panantukan
How would you organize the rules of a grappling tournament were any grappling style no matter wich, had a trully good chance of wining? because ADCC rules leave out many aspects of it such as the Gi, the pinning points reward from wrestling the reward points of clean throws like in judo ippon or the sumo push out of the plattform. And all these are ways of winning a match in those styels and resamble a way of winning a fight, but in adcc you only win seaking for subbmisions.
@@inside_fighting Haha, my bad. I shouldn't comment with little sleep. I watched your video a couple of months ago. Thanks again for all the great content.
You're fair and that's a. Welcome development. Btw, where are the African based systems like LAAMB and the traditional, folk, West African wrestling styles. Be nice to hear your thoughts on that😊
I think Judo gets an A over Freestyle and Greco-Roman due to the locks and chokes...also time limits in newaza force aggressive attacks on the ground. Which is a good habit for self defense. My experience is most Judo clubs train randori 50/50 split...however training technique wise its 70/30 in favour of tachiwaza.
How would you rank modern no-gi JJ? At this point, many no-gi gyms are actively fusing various forms of wrestling and BJJ, with some even adapting judo/sambo techniques into the mix. It's basically just hybrid submission grappling.
@@inside_fighting That's fair! Thanks! As a side note, I thought you gave Dumog a good review. I only wish it were trained to a higher standard more often!
Best way to develop a no gi Judo system? Go train freestyle wrestling once a week. You'll quickly learn how to adapt your throws to no gi, and you'll also learn how to wrestle. Both great things.
You my friend are high if you think Greco-Roman is safer in a street fight then freestyle so many moves in Greco-Roman involve grabbing an opponent and picking him up and tossing him while turning that could result in your opponent falling on top of you.
I like your video and your rationale for the ranking, but… I think all discussion of self defense should start with the situations where one needs to defend themselves to set the context. I think the needs for self defense will differ based on gender and location
American folk style wrestling, very cheap and consistently uses only proven technique under pressure. Trains you in how to escape, control an opponent and how to finish one. With some 🧠 power you can use pinning techniques as submissions.
As a Judoka, I'll add a couple of other issues with the martial art- or more specifically where the sport has gone in recent years. . One is that they took out leg grabs- which means many Judoka now aren't exposed to double leg takedowns unless they cross train in other styles. That being said, I feel upper body takedowns are better for street fighting e.g. Osoto Gari. The other is that because of the rules of the sport, Judoka can "turtle" to avoid fighting on the ground and wait until you're stood up by the referee after a couple of seconds. Very bad strategy for self defence!
Agree. I also feel that judo guys will risk limb injury in competition instead of break falling to not land on their back and lose which is a bad training habit.
aikido is the only one on that list, that deals with sitiational awreness and the possibility of multiple attackers, and is, besides jjj and combat sambo the only system on that list that adresses weapons
A word for Greco - Roman and Pankration: Greco Roman was devoloped for use during battles, where both you and the enemy would wear some kind of armor, be it leather or bronze, while taking into account there would be hundrends of other people fighting with long spears and swords around you. As such it puts emphasis on quickly throwing someone to the ground, so hopefully one of yours would stab him, while you escaped to get a weapon. Delivering a "killing blow" wasn't a necessity. Pankration was also developed for that reason, to be used in battles, but with a significant difference: it was used for 1 to 1 duells, which often took place before the armies clashed, between champions and / or generals of opposing sides. As such it does have actual killing blows (in ancient Pankration a very popular hit is the kick in the groin :) ). Another thing that looks a bit strange at first is favoring hits with open palms (slaps) over just punching. That's because an officer / general would wear a bronze helmet, so a punch wouldn't achieve that much, other than breaking your own knuckles. (soldiers of the time didn't wear metal gloves). However by slapping, you had your fingers in an "open" position and so the aim wasn't so much to "hit" with the slap, but to grap the helmet with your fingers by inserting the fingers from the inside of the chin (many helmets were of the open type), so you gained an advantage and / or after connecting the slap to try and insert the finger in the eye holes to gauge the oppenents eyes out.... :) The characteristic boots of Pankration exist to this day, as those who took part in the duels, being officers / champions / generals of the armies, were very rich individuals and could easily afford that protective gear. Most soldiers would be happy with some linnen / leather armor perhaps with some bronze plate in the center, fewer would have a bronze helmet, but leg armor covering up to the knee (greaves) were so expensive and thus rare, only a select few could afford. In movies and modern depictions of hoplites / roman soldiers you may see them wearing 2 greaves (1 in each leg), but that wasn't the case. To these soldiers (veterans / 1st line shock troops) that equipment were provided by the state and they would in battle wear only 1 greave, in the left leg (the defensive leg), which they would put im front, along with the shield. However, as said above, those individuals who took part in the duells before a battle, were of such status and financial ability, that they could afford both greaves.
@@inside_fightinghe’s unfortunately bought into the name propaganda. Greco Roman is actually a French Wrestling style of the 1800’s that was renamed for the Olympics. It was created with the idea that upper body control does help to control weapons which is a plus
@@badart3204 It's true that the modern Greco Ronan was named as such for the 1st Olympics of the modern era (or perhaps a bit before that). Obviously we couldn't have it as it was 2,000+ years ago, could we? However both the Greeks and the Romans included wrestling in the training of their soldiers, with the Greeks having wrestling as part of the Olympics. There are also numerous written records of it being used, most famously in "Cyrous Anabasis" , when the 10,000 hoplites Cyrous had hired to overthrow his brother went to meet the rest of the Persian army, but also when the exhiled Spartan King went to the court of the Persian King ( i believe he was Brasidas? may be wrong about the name) and when Alcibiades, the Athenian general seeked refuge in the Thracian tribes. However, as the Roman empire shaped much of modern Europe, much of it's military and civil traditions survived itself (the early German Empire was named : "the Holy Roman Empire", it is highly likely that the unarmed fighting techniques which the Roman army used and which after several centuries had obviously been accepted as the standard in the countries that made up the former empire, continued to exist, even with changes. Thus it's natural that the wrestling style and techniques most prominent in France, but also in several other countries of Europe, former parts of the Roman Empire, had it's roots and countless elements derived from the Greek and Roman wrestling styles. Unless we want to accept that the French simply invented the whole thing from the start, at around 1700 to 1800 and then renamed it, while throwing at the garbage bin all the previous knowledge of 2000+ years :) I am not saying it suervived unchanged though - nothing could (or should) after more than 20 centuries. Of course in the ancient descriptions from the Olympics, the Greeks never mention: "Greco or Greco Roman wrestling" , as for them it was just "wrestling".
I'm glad I found your channel a few weeks ago as this is the best tier list video I've seen. You're fair, realistic and rational in your judgement and completely put any bias you have aside. Thank's to the algorithm for suggesting one of videos, because all of your content is solid. I think your channel is criminally underrated and I'd love to see that change, and I think the best way to do so would be collaborations with Sensei Seth (who you mentioned) as well as the other channels in that corner of martial arts CZcams, ie Icy Mike, Metrolina Martial Arts, Wonderboy, etc. I'd love to see what would come of you guys interacting.
Glad you found the channel as well. I’d love to collaborate with those guys. They seem very open to training with other people so I’ll reach out to each one of them
And this is why... in my opinion... for street self defense, a deep and heavily practiced understanding of boxing with a wee bit of wrestling knowledge on how to avoid being taken down or slammed and how to quickly get back up on your feet, is best.
Pretty sure muay thai is more completed. People often think MT people don't know how to use punches. So yh I think MT is even more completed.
I’d say both the boxing and the wrestling need to be heavily practiced. You can’t easily defend against takedowns with just a wee bit of wrestling knowledge . You should be competent in both.
Used to do sumo sometimes in open mat and it drastically improved my ring awareness. It's super fun too.
This is actually a very objective analysis of different grappling systems.
I highly appreciate it.
I personally hear all the time that "BJJ is the be all end all of all martial arts "
Much appreciated! As someone who has trained bjj 24 years but also spent a lot of time exploring other systems i think people have blinders on
I’ve legitimately have never heard any bjj practitioner say bjj is the only thing you need, I really just think it’s other martial artists such as yourself use a straw man fallacy. Every bjj practitioner I’ve ever met and talked to either also either does wrestling or boxing/kickboxing/Muay thai
@@conorfiggs234 i would love to agree but i disagree. Lots of bjj guys are purists and imo the system has definitely gone the route of over complexity / sport over self defense which is fine as long as people accept it.
The major value of bjj comes at blue belt but after that a lot of it is hyper specific to beating other bjj players and your time would be better spent in takedowns and situational training and dealing with strikes of pure self defense is the goal.
@@conorfiggs234 I like how you accused him of using a strawman fallacy while you used anecdotal evidence. Lol
Brilliant. This is probably the best of these martial arts tier videos that I’ve seen so far. I basically agree with all of it. My only strong disagreement is about Judo, which I would put at least A Tier, if not S. I think it’s one of the best martial arts for self defence, on par with boxing. High level judoka do very well in real fights.
I was very tempted to… I think the only thing that stopped me was the grip dependence which is arguably not a bad thing depending where you live.
@@inside_fighting I don’t think the grips issue is a huge problem for self-defence. For one, it’s not that easy to stop a skilled judoka from getting a strong grip and launching you, and judo techniques can also be applied from other positions, like the clinch or an arm around the waist. Most people trying to punch or kick a skilled judoka are also going to be very vulnerable to having their feet swept as they come forward.
I would not put it s tier. however a tier can be argued as its quite a well rounded grappling style more so than Greco-Roman and freestyle because of the ground game also every country does judo abit different. Mongolian style is more underhook over hook focused than the Japanese style which is very sleeve and lapel judo is great but it can't be s tier because combat sambo is obviously better suited for self defence
@@user-yi9ck9lf2n I say S Tier because Judo has proven itself in real world combat. You can find many videos of people defending themselves with Judo techniques. It was also used extensively by both police and military.
@@MrCBTman but many of the others have proven there style in real world combat the thing that stop it being s tier is this. All grappling styles are very similar they have most of the same moves but work a little different depending on rules sambo and judo are almost identical but the things that make sambo better is 1 the rules in sambo if I throw someone with osoto gari then I get rolled through that's 4 points to me and 4 points to him but he's winning because he scored after and he now has dominant position in judo if the same thing happens I just win regardless of where we end up after the throw and number 2 sport sambo has more options you can grab the legs for example which in some ways is a bad thing as then you have a more bent posture which Is not how people fight but over all I think its better to have more attacks and have more defenses to more things and 3 there's combat sambo that's automatic s tier as its all aspects of hand to hand combat. If we are talking just sport sambo and sport judo I'd still rate sambo slightly higher a+ tier because of the reasons I said but judo is a tier in my opinion its great but sambo is better so it can't be s tier
One big problem I noticed in BJJ, which is Pull Guard or Butt Scooting. It's so normalized and habitual in MMA & Grappling competition especially in ADCC and IBJJF to a point that I'm not surprised if a competitive BJJ grappler is killed in street fight because of the subconscious attempt on Pull Guard.
Shuai Chiao teacher here. You are absolutely right, we have striking in our system as well as clinch work, wrestling and a few ground submissions, not just throws. Great video by the way!
Thanks! If you train in the US I wonder if you know my buddy Matt Gelfand :O
@@inside_fightingI know him. He's a badass fighter.
Bart Vale was a good Shootfighter. Bas was labeled a Shootfighter back then. And both Shamrocks.
Frank was one of my favorites back in the day.
Bart Vale was a karate guy who never really learned how to wrestle properly. Frank, Ken and Bass were all waaaay better wrestlers, both standing and on the ground.
This is a really good well thought out video, can't believe it took this long for CZcams algorithm to find and suggest it for me. I always felt the BJJ classes I was doing was missing the throwing parts no matter how much instructor said it was best for self defense.
Greco is the best transitional system to striking, especially boxing. The takedowns and clinches are very low risk, as opposed to freestyle or judo.
I go through a new phase with Aikido probably every few weeks at this point. I spent probably a couple thousand hours training it in Japan in a pretty rigorous environment.
I definitely agree it’s a supplemental system and, even more than that, I think it’s a system better started after you have some experience in something else. And that isn’t because it’s secretly super advanced or whatever else.
Mostly it’s because Aikido spends a lot of time developing more subtle corners of your primary game. I’m a Judo person, for example, and the interpretation for Aikido that I’ve landed on is that it’s mostly grip fighting, just highly stylized. But I would never have recognized that without prior experience and been forever frustrated as to why my stuff wasn’t working.
Grip fighting is hardly the only thing, though. It’s also big on drilling into you very precise, smooth movements. The wrist locks, of course. In my opinion, the best break falls in martial arts-which has little to do with street fighting directly, but it makes training safely and longer much more of a possibility.
It’s a pity the art is in such a weird place. On one hand you have Aikido guys that get very “woo woo” with it and on the other you get guys who really aren’t even experienced enough in their own art making value statements from afar. There really is a lot there, I just also think it’s hard to sell more casual martial artists on a “supplemental system.” From a pure consumer standpoint, the layman typically has a hard time understanding why they should drop a few extra hours a week into a martial art that doesn’t directly correlate to them winning sparring sessions immediately.
Basically, I see Aikido is a polish for the rougher edges of other systems. By itself kinda meh outside of some health benefits, but together over time with really anything in the S, A, and B tiers and I think it’s worthwhile.
EDIT: Worth noting as well that Chin Na often comes attached to a lot of other Chinese martial arts (Shuai Jiao included). To me, Aikido is to Judo and Karate what Chin Na is to Chinese martial arts. There is no evidence to support that that relationship influenced its founding, but I think it fills the same niche, just in the Japanese ecosystem of martial arts.
Great post and i agree with all of it. I feel the exact same way about it and if aikido was tacked on to other styles like kyokushin or judo it would be amazing.
Imagine if you spent all that time boxing instead. You would be a dangerous person.
The principles behind Aikido are solid; breaking the opponent’s balance, disrupt the base. It is using different motions than JJJ, relying on larger circles, with more emphasis on wrist controls. It isn’t based on some mystical “ magic” power, it still obeys the laws of physics and motion.
I myself am not an aikidoka, but I have read extensively on it, and I do see how it has evolved over time. Ueshiba’s early version was heavily influenced by Takeda’s Daito Ryu instruction, and included more of a focus on atemi, and if stories of his fighting prowess as a young man are to be believed, it was a highly effective combat system.
It’s not that Aikido is not effective, it’s that the focus has changed. It’s no longer the solution to the problem that it once was. The task for the tool has changed. Those who hate on it can be compared to people who try to pound nails with a screwdriver then complain that screwdrivers don’t work. It doesn’t work for the task they want done, so it must be useless. But there is no such thing as a useless tool, and that belief I have is the reading my tool box and my workshop are overflowing with tools, many I many never need, but you never know if or when you will.
All martial systems are solutions to problems. But you must properly define the problem. Problems change over time and with them the solutions.
Consider this, if you look at the police defensive tactics systems and the military combative systems from the 50s into the 70s, you will find that many of them included Aikido as one of their influences. Judo and/or Jujutsu, wrestling, boxing and some form of Karate, Okinawan, Japanese or Korean. So, apparently it was considered to be useful.
When western first started learning Okinawan and Japanese martial arts they would likely would have a chance to study karate, judo and aikido
@@inside_fightingHapkido, or, better yet, gongkwon yusul. Gongkwon yusul is pretty much my dream art; kyokushin style striking but with beautiful Korean kicks, judo throws, some ne waza with basic striking, and that aikido polish. The best of the traditional martial arts and MMA worlds. Like a hard-core taekkyeon.
Speaking of gongkwon yusul, where would you say it ranks? I say above the pure grappling arts, with the potential to match sambo, but maybe a tier below because it doesn't seem like they compete much or do a lot of hard sparring (other than kyokushin style body punches and leg kicks).
Sometimes a style suits a person and even technique can apply,training within styles will teach one to apply their particular method and realize if it can adjust to pressure and adverse situations in terms of self defense. It’s great how diverse and the visibility of systems are on CZcams channels and other media outlets. Martial arts is far more available and mainstream than those of us growing up in the 60s and 70s. We continue to learn and adapt and any system that allows that perspective has worthwhile attributes.Practice practice practice.. thanks for your channel being so broad minded in viewing the arts.Peace…
I appreciate this honesty. Probably the most flak you'll get is from the one on C (not saying it for those who haven't seen it yet). It's also good to know that you tried to stay on the self-defense aspect and seeing your "pain" on some of the arts that you have history of makes this tier list heartfelt.
Thanks very much. Rather be honest with myself. I can love a style and still see it’s faults… especially after dedicating my life to it. I still do love it very much but the popularity has maybe hurt it a bit and i hate the cult mentality it sometimes has.
@@inside_fighting Will you be making a striking tier list? It would definitely ruffle a lot more feathers than this one, lol! I can already see the rage of Muay Thai, Boxing, and TKD.
@@Loyal2law i would make one yes :) i plan to soon
BEST TAKEDOWNS FOR SELF DEFENSE AGAINST BIGGER OPPONENTS ... Please make this video !
I think you have a fantastic channel. As a lifetime student of martial arts I have learned a lot-truly.
Great list Dude! Thanks.
Loved this video!!!! I agree with you scoring and analysis
Yay! Thank you!
I went and tried a Japanese Jiu Jitsu class last night. I think I agree with your assessment. The stuff they taught was absolutely vicious compared to techniques in Judo or Wrestling, but the flip side of that was that it couldn't be done with any aliveness.
I could see this stuff being a great add on to really mess people up if you are already a solid grappler from a style that regularly pressure tests.
I was ready to be one of those “actually” people, but this was great. Speaking from a catch background I will say aikido really is a great supplement.
Really appreciate that. Catch and aikido is a unique and great mix. Catch is one of the few systems outside aikido that has such advanced wrist locking so i can see lots of crossover but with a completely opposite mentality which would be great
Found this Channel recently and yes you might get some slack on the BJJ placing but I agree with you. I´m 67 and a long time Judo practitioner and for the last 5 years been doing BJJ and in my youth did lots of full contact Karate (bare knuckle) and my sparring was a mix of Judo and Karate and it was great for street self defense . Have to mention my school does Gracie Jujitsu and do both sport and self defense. Happy New Year to you and keep it up.
Great video. Best ratings system I have seen on this topic. Happy to see Judo getting the love it deserves!
As a Purple in BJJ and 2nd Dan oin Judo I agree with this video. im also glad my BJJ is just a refined version of my Judo ground work. I rarely work from guard and my BJJ game is all about Throw > top control > submission but agree with this ranking on both sports. Although id place Sambo with Judo. although he talks about combat sambo and sambo he still talks about Sambos strike awareness which is really only liked to combat sambo. think he should have seperated Sambo and combat sambo and looked at each in isolation. id then put Sambo with Judo and Combat Sambo with MMA
Good video ... do striking martial arts for self defense tier list next :)
I’m really, really enjoying this channel! This tier video on grappling systems was very informative and helps me focus on which direction I might take in the future. There are several systems listed here that San Francisco offers, though not as many at the top of your ranking as I’d like. Still, more than most places probably. (Now, where does this 58 y/o latecomer get started, lol?) Just out of curiosity, where does Systema fit in the world of martial art/self defense systems? Have you done a video on it? Thanks for the great work and the amazing channel you’ve created!
Would have been interesting if you had oldschoold Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in the list as well, to differentiate it from modern day BJJ
I considered that… i would have to give old school GJJ A tier based on all the old Gracie videos alone where they went out and dojo stormed 👀 those videos got me in to bjj 😅
What was the name of the first japanese jiujitsu school that you visited?
my personal preference among these very good martial arts based on (or more) grappling is Pankration- for his variety of techniques likewise strikes, holds, kicks, throws, etc.
Nice 💯 agree. I personally did a few years of amateur boxing & kickboxing, 3 years in high school in the wrestling team & some mma as an adult would personally love to learn some sambo & combat wrestling at some point. Thanks.
Why did t you just make 2 tabs Sport Sambo and Combat Sambo?
I like your assessment on judo. I feel the same on all your points. You are right most judoka don’t cross train with say wrestlers to pick up hand fighting . However, for those that do it’s less of a learning curve for judoka to pick up wrestling or wrestlers to pick up judo than one thinks. Lots a similarities. I know I’d love to spend some time training with Greco guys. That looks like a crazy awesome system to learn!
Also it makes me sad that BJJ is becoming like Olympic judo. In that it is obsessed with sports specific training and goals.
I really respected and miss the old style Gracie jiujitsu that was oriented towards dealing with self defense altercations.
I like BJJ a lot, but if I were to pick 1 style to stick with in the long haul, the self defense oriented old Gracie style is the one I’d choose. That’s what got people interested in BJJ in the first place!
No disrespect to competitors though. If competition is your thing it’s the most popular and numerous anyway.
Great episode!
Yeah, I'd been training Judo 7 or 8 years before going to train Wrestling formally, and it didn't take much time to get used to the lack of the gi. Ippon Seoi nage and Uchi Mata translated particularly well. Plus Wrestling is just a good thing to do period.
I agree with most of your categorizations, especially your ratings of sambo and catch.
A system that may be considered a form of Japanese jujutsu, is Danzan Ryu. Actually it can be classified as a Hawaiian system. It was developed as a “ street practical” version of jujutsu.
It was once very aggressive, with an emphasis on quickly and decisively ending a confrontation, stressing joint breaks over submissions, and was spar heavy. I’m basing this assessment of it on my experience with it in the late 1980s, and I do realize that the training emphasis on martial systems can change ad time goes by. It includes striking and low level kicking, being that it’s founder, Henry Okazashi had trained in Shorin Ryu and boxing. It’s grappling was based not only on Japanese jujutsu, but on wrestling (I believe it was Greco-Roman) and Kapu Kuialua. It also includes stick and blade techniques from eskrima. Okazashi was so admired as a self-defense instructor, that his school was not forced to close during WW2 , like those of other Japanese instructors, and he was selected to provide US Army personnel,including Alamo Scouts, hand-to- hand combat training.
When it comes to judo, where would you put pre-1960s Kodenkan judo or WW 2 era combat judo?
How would you rate Hapkido?
Something to mention, one of those responsible for the creation of shoot fighting was catch wrestling great, Karl Gotch.
Overall, well done sir.
I look forward to your upcoming videos.
I think pre ww2 judo was A tier and very effective. Far more awareness of self defense and less hyper dynamic exciting “Olympic” sport based approach to the system. Also a lot more ground awareness.
I have limited experience with hapkido but have some such a range of quality. The hyper traditional schools that have no sparring are a good supplemental style in a similar way to jjj imo. Karl Gotch always deserves a shout out :) i agree.
I've studied Danzan-ryu, and you're right; it's next level. But I do need to correct one thing, the founder's name is Okazaki, not Okazashi. Henry Seishiro Okazaki. He also trained with the founders of Kajukenbo.
@@inside_fightingI was wondering why you didn't include hapkido.
At first I was just going to fast forward to the end. But then I saw the list at the end and said "oh snap this man got some hot takes" so I had to listen.
Sound logic here! This all makes perfect sense. Though I'd be curious to get your thoughts on Tenshin Aikido, Steven Seagals variant of it. He brought out a lot of its Aikijutsu roots and added Jujitsu, karate, and even hand deflections based on sword parrying techniques. I find his version has some really interesting methods of entry into those jointlocks. If it were trained with MMA added to it, a person might develop excellent skills against multiple attackers, as it has many methods of attack a person's extremities and takes them down instantly with pain. I'm thinking fingerlock to the ground and quick knee to the face type stuff. I pulled it off a few times in street fights.
I think he has a far more realistic approach to aikido than others I’ve seen. Did you see him on Jesse enkamps channel?
@@inside_fighting I did! I really enjoyed that 👍👍 Those techniques looked excruciating and his insights were quite intelligent. Another channel I enjoy watching is Lenny Sly's Rogue Warriors. He was trained by Seagal's top students and works at making it practical for self defense. Definitely worth a look.
I had a friend who grappled that visited Mongolia for half a year and came back, it turned him into a different kind of beast and made him really tough to take down. Maybe it would have been different if he didnt already train, but it seems cool!
If I may challenge the premises, by adding that 95% of self defense is not being in a physicall fight in a non controlled environment at all. That said, if the situation occurs, then your list is absolutely correct.
Wouldn't class Chin na as a martial arts, but as the way arm bars (and stuff...) are taught in wushu 🙂
Totally agree on JJJ : pisses me off because could be a great sparring place for experienced judo and karate guys ...
qin na refers to joint locking of any kind and while it's an aspect of pretty much every Chinese martial art, it's also a style unto itself.
Funny my son inlaw was asking me what I thought for self defense. And I gave him almost the same Ideas you are saying. Other than Sambo as finding a place to train it is almost impossible.
Systema is amazing for situational awareness and the sucker punch. They never spar but I love it!! Just spar in another art.
As a BJJ guy I get why it may be lower rank. A lot of schools don’t have great takedowns and sweeps. Personally my gym is very good with working on the takedowns and overall game which is why I really like it but in general there are a decent number of Mcdojos
"Greco roman is less likely to hurt the person doing the takedown"
The Suplex:hold my beer
As a lifelong (25+ years) mixed martial artist (Kyokushin, Greco, ITF TKD, and Shootfighting) I agree with this list. Osu!
On Mongolian Wrestling: “most people wear pants”
If you’re getting attacked by people not wearing pants, you’ve already fucked up 🤣
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Broadly agree. I train in a traditional jj, but unlike some of the other clubs, we actually also train and compete under judo rules, and also do a decent amount of bjj rules. Also our instructor has a lot of full contact karate experience, and grew up in NY in the 1970s... so he has seen some stuff.
So we spend about 1/3 judo, 1/3 self defense traditional jj (but using critically examined and modified techniques - "This is a drunk uncle technique" or "Now, nobody's going to grab your wrist like this and just stand there..."). 1/3 ground fighting. We don't emphasize striking. The traditional jj striking is embarrassing (terrible, and such small portions), but a lot of the guys have backgrounds in striking anyway (karate, boxing, kickboxing or other stuff)
We've noticed the guys who just do the traditional can do a beautiful demo that they are completely unable to reproduce under pressure, their posture, strength and conditioning just aren't great.
For some of the traditional practioners it is a lifestyle hobby, like aikido, which is fine, except some of them view themselves as modern day samurai, which gets a bit embarrassing for everyone (we tend to view ourselves as combat sport practitioners with a liberal dash of applications)
I think its soo important to start on the feet every class. Also you need to put on gloves from time to time. I think bjj really depends on the person doing it.
I am primarily a Goju Karate guy. But I found HS Wrestling is a good backup system for the self-defense/street.
I did some Aikido and a modified Sumo. They are helpful but I feel my HS Wrestling is more effective in the street.
“Wrestling is a good backup”, no; wrestling is the best base
@@mizukarate i like Goju. Strong system of karate. Wrestling is an amazing grappling foundation imo one of the best
@@conorfiggs234 Wrestling not my base system but would be awesome if it was.
@@inside_fighting I have a mixed bag of training like you. But my most used fighting systems in the street were Goju and HS Wrestling. In my view an MMA attitude toward self-defense makes perfect sense.
Gojuriyu Karate and Shotokhan Karate also has good takedowns, throws and submitting mixed with striking.
Hello brother, I would like to know what you think of Luta Livre since it is a combination of Judo and Catch wrestling that were very high in the tier where would you put it?
very brave to tell the truth about BJJ, its nice to hear the honesty and i totally agree with you on it.
Love a good tier list video 👏 👏 👏
Would you do one for striking?
Yes i will sooner or later :)
Do you consider luta libre a separate grappling art? And you should do a tier list of some striking arts, especially the ones that add a bit of grappling like sanda.
I was tempted to add in Luta livre but my feelings would be very similar to shoot/mma on it. Those systems fall in to a similar family for me.
I’ll definitely do a tier list on striking
Really liked this overview. Learned new things. Very informative.
Excuse my ignorance, what is the difference between Shoot wrestling and Shooto? They sound similar.
My understanding is that Shooto is a Japanese MMA organisation. Similar to Pancrase or Pride back in the day perhaps. Whereas Shoot wrestling is a Japanese (catch inspired) wrestling style, not MMA. Anything I missed? Cheers!
Shoot fighting , shoot wrestling, are all offshoots of each other. Shoot fighting typically mma based training. Shoot wrestling was more the catch aspects… shooto is/was an mma organization based or inspired by the above..
@@inside_fighting Got it. Cool. Thanks!
weird to see someone whos views i share for 90%, greets from europe
Interesting video but I would have to move Aikido up to a solid C. Maybe a C+. Depending on the school. * I trained seriously for about 18 months in the UK doing traditional Aikido and yes, that style would definitely be E tier as it was mostly slow motion drills and I doubt I could have made any of it work in a real self defence situation. However, when I lived in Japan (Kansai region) I dropped into an Aikido class at an average local sports centre where they taught more of a sports style and had a really casual McDojo atmosphere going on. Almost disrespectfully casual. (Kids playing around on the edge of the mat, lots of laughter and ignoring of the teacher etc. The opposite of what you'd expect in Japan) And yet, what they did do was constant full commitment sparring. Flat out, full tempo. It was like Judo on steroids. And yep, when I joined in, I had my ass kicked so badly I never went back :-)
I've seen grappling for self defense being underestimated for decades .But I feel it's getting overestimated these days ( this is just my opinion ) . Obviously grappling (or throwing ) is a great skill to have for self defense . When I look back , my Judo training saved my ass the few times I got in a real fight. It's also great for controlling aggressive people if you work with potentially aggressive patients /clients for example.
The problem with BJJ and other ground grappling styles ( for self defense ) is that one needs to be really good at it . Because there are no weight classes or 'one versus one ' rule. If two guys attack you (you'll be probably toast anyway) but you can potentially hold them off with punches & kicks. Grappling one guy leaves the other guy free to attack you. A bigger guy that can punch is also pretty difficult to get under ' grappling control'
That 'combat /shoot wrestling looks practical .It's the first time I've seen that.
there's plenty of footage of people with decent boxing taking down multiple opponents quickly, I have yet to see one person effectively grapple multiple opponents.
I don’t disagree at all. It’s one component of fighting that can be very useful but the most important part of training it is the ability to stay standing or get back to your feet.
If you are a boxer and get taken down and can’t get back up… that’s a problem. Most of the b-S tier listed will solve that
@@inside_fighting No i also don't disagree with you.Just giving a counter argument. Obviously training as much as possible different styles is the best there is. MMA changed the way people train., and kids these days are far more 'all round fighters' then I used to be.
But in a real fight there's no referee saying ' start the kumite / fight' So what often happens in some bar or club, (or wherever)is some A-hole suddenly punching or elbows someone in the head. and so KO or near KO someone before they even have the chance to use their skills. It often takes a humbling beating to prepare one for real life fighting . This is and always will be the sad reality of violence.
@@yamiyomizuki That's it. Also, one must be pretty confident & well trained to take a fight with some unknown guy to the ground. Especially a bigger dude.
@@spiritualanarchist8162 i agree fully. My biggest problem with sport systems is they don’t prepare you for the surprise and intense aggression of a street fight
Great video. I have no specific gripes with the rankings. Also i havent trained most of these so i wouldnt even know 😂
But i love how simply you brokedown the 3 parts of self defense. I try to train this way when sparring.
I like how much knowledge you have about these styles before speaking on it (a lot of these tier lists dont even know anything about the style..) but i wonder.. self defence for who? The champions for these sports, or the average joe? I do judo, it suits me for not being that aggressive. Catch would be cool but its too aggressive for me to want to train. I want to go to work the next day.. etc etc
Also,if you haven't made a tier list for striking you should.
I will
Honestly it's impressive how much bjj fell in the public opinion :
5-6 years ago pepole talked about it as if it was the ultimate single mode of fighting in wich you could break apart anyone due to how much they drilled and practiced techniques ...
Now it almost sounds like takwendo in that it's an overly specialized fighting style that doesn't prepare pepole for fighting ...
I think it's how martial arts work :
The more they become popular the more they get gamified and so they need to essentially become games ...
Quite good analysis, and as a lifelong martial artist and having trained in most of these styles, I completely agree. My only quibble is that you didn't really address the biggest litmus test of a grappling-based self defense system: training on how to defend against punches. Punches are super common in self defense situations, and if your art doesn't address it AT ALL (Judo, BJJ, wrestling, etc), it should automatically be at C or lower tier. If it has fake or ineffective responses (Aikido, JJJ), F tier, since it will actually make you a worse fighter in the situation. And if it incorporates punch defenses directly (SAMBO, MMA, Shoot fighting, etc.), S tier. If it is easily incorporated with just an extra couple of lessons (Catch, etc), then A tier.
This is an awesome list BTW, will you be doing one for striking arts as well?
Yes i will. I have some other videos i want to make first but i like making tier lists
@@inside_fightingawesome, enjoying your insights!
12:35 was the place called Ryozanpaku?
22:00 you know,i believe you would really enjoy Garouden then.
Ever stumbled upon Small Circle Jiu Jitsu?
Yes i like small circle jujutsu. It wasn’t called ryozanpaku but where is that so i can check it out.
I’m going to download garouden on my iPad. :)
First
I want to train Catch but can't find the gym in Ireland.
What do you think about taking NoGi BJJ instead?
Would it be fair to say NoGi BJJ = NoPin Catch??
I mostly agree with this, but it seems like BJJ should be a solid b- and Sumo should maybe be a bit lower.
Which 3 styles from S A B and C have the lowest injury rate during training and competition
There are some Folkstyle Wrestling arts that I'd like your take on such as:
Chidaoba (GEO), Ssireum (KOR) & Schwingen (SUI). There are some countries in Africa that are trying to rebuild their Folkstyle by bringing in Ssireum instructors. Also, there are Olympians from Chidaoba, with 🏅 medals in Freestyle, Judo, & Greco. How does Schwingen compare to Glima?
I believe for self-defense, as far as grappling and take downs and such, if your able to throw someone to the ground when they attack you then you have a second or two to run away to a safe area. Anything more is fighting and not self defense. My own opinion. And really anything that your able to flee even if you appear to be a coward or giving them your last dollar and getting away with your life is self defense. But as far as grappling and wrestling goes, if they have to get up you can run in that short time...
Would training in Erik Paulson's CSW count as both shoot fighting and MMA?
In your opinion is training in Brazilian jiu-jitsu worth it and how would you make Brazilian jiu-jitsu better should Japanese Jiu-Jitsu be added to it
Bjj is very much worth it. It’s a great martial art that will open your mind to body mechanics in a way many others won’t. For bjj to be better I’d add wrestling of some kind and also make sure that i train against strikes. Boxing and bjj together is a great combination but just be aware to develop yourself to be aware of strikes in training.
I do jjj and it’s pretty good like a lot especially if you do judo
I agree. JJJ for me is a unique style because it’s so dependent on the school. I find as supplemental system to judo it’s fantastic
@@inside_fightingyeah for mine it’s okianwna jiujitsu and it’s legit
Which one is submission grappling? Thx! Catch?
In my experience (35 years Pak Mei, Long Ying, Hung Gar, CLF) your supposition that “Chin na” is not a system unto itself is correct. It’s a component of various Chinese martial arts, a category that is used to describe the grasping, choking, pressure point, and joint locking/breaking attacks. When we learn it or use it, it is not independent of the other parts of the art.
qin na is an aspect of many Chinese martial arts but it is also a system unto itself.
What makes you say that? I’ve always encountered it as a subset of techniques, that are part of a complete art. Punching, kicking, wrestling, and kham na (qin na), being the 4 components in question. Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming has written about the subject and refers to it in this sense.
Your channel is in my top 3 of martial arts CZcams channels, and you are extremely knowledgeable about fighting and martial arts. Didn’t even know you’re involved with Hollywood shit, but I’m sure it’s gay and I would hate it.❤
Great video, agree with your reasoning. Wish I could train with you.
Thank you man 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 and my acting stuff is stupid 🤣
I don’t like to see bjj at C, but regardless of the position it’s only by accepting the criticism that it can evolve. And it’s already evolving.
So I'm looking for a system to use the elbows and knees and I like hubud lubud for anti knife 🔪 drills ans wing chun elbows you said you trained pma and silat what you thinking just quickest system to neutralise the Threat?
If you want effective knife training a good Filipino martial arts school will be up your alley and you will also get the empty hand aspects as well if it’s a style that has panantukan
How would you organize the rules of a grappling tournament were any grappling style no matter wich, had a trully good chance of wining? because ADCC rules leave out many aspects of it such as the Gi, the pinning points reward from wrestling the reward points of clean throws like in judo ippon or the sumo push out of the plattform. And all these are ways of winning a match in those styels and resamble a way of winning a fight, but in adcc you only win seaking for subbmisions.
Just started this video. I'm sure it will be good but disappointed that Glima didn't make the list. How about a video on it Ilan?
:) Already covered it individually here:
czcams.com/video/zAQUqkwyB6Q/video.html
@@inside_fighting Haha, my bad. I shouldn't comment with little sleep. I watched your video a couple of months ago. Thanks again for all the great content.
@@grapplewithreality thank you brother 🙏🏼
You're fair and that's a. Welcome development. Btw, where are the African based systems like LAAMB and the traditional, folk, West African wrestling styles. Be nice to hear your thoughts on that😊
Great input! I’ll add them to the list
you should also check Laamb Senegalese Wrestling
I think Judo gets an A over Freestyle and Greco-Roman due to the locks and chokes...also time limits in newaza force aggressive attacks on the ground. Which is a good habit for self defense.
My experience is most Judo clubs train randori 50/50 split...however training technique wise its 70/30 in favour of tachiwaza.
How would you rank modern no-gi JJ? At this point, many no-gi gyms are actively fusing various forms of wrestling and BJJ, with some even adapting judo/sambo techniques into the mix. It's basically just hybrid submission grappling.
Submission grappling a La Nicky rod style b team Craig Jones world is a-tier imo
But as good as Gordon Ryan is he still sits on his butt a lot 🤷🏽♂️
@@inside_fighting That's fair! Thanks! As a side note, I thought you gave Dumog a good review. I only wish it were trained to a higher standard more often!
No-gi BJJ at highest level will become Catch wrestling. Craig Jones and Nicky Rod are perfect examples of this.
@@kallepikku4991 Should we just call it catch then? Also, not to refute your point, but why did catch never get really popular if it's so good?
I am doing Judo, i'd like to add Sambo but there is no Sambo in my area. What arts should i add to my Judo to create something like Sambo on my own?
If you're doing judo you're doing 70% sambo because Sambo is JUDO + WRESTLING AND STRIKES .
Freestyle wrestling, so you learn the leg grabs that were removed from Judo a decade ago.
Best way to develop a no gi Judo system? Go train freestyle wrestling once a week. You'll quickly learn how to adapt your throws to no gi, and you'll also learn how to wrestle. Both great things.
You my friend are high if you think Greco-Roman is safer in a street fight then freestyle so many moves in Greco-Roman involve grabbing an opponent and picking him up and tossing him while turning that could result in your opponent falling on top of you.
Folkstyle is the goat base in MMA look at all the past champions in Bellator and UFC they are overwhelmingly college wrestler who wrestled Folkstyle.
What about collegiate wrestling?
What About Luta Livre?'
I like your video and your rationale for the ranking, but… I think all discussion of self defense should start with the situations where one needs to defend themselves to set the context. I think the needs for self defense will differ based on gender and location
Should've included kudo as well if included sambo
Kudo is S tier imo much like combat sambo and mma
@@inside_fightingheadbutts ooof
@@inside_fighting kudo is truly next level
Paul Vunak is kinna scurry...
Hahaha yes agreed
Definitely agree bjj over developed judo no gi and muy thai
What is the difference between Aikido & Hapkido?
Hapkido has a lot kore diversity of training and strikes etc… it takes elements from aikido but is it’s own system mixed with tkd and more
How about Senegalese wrestling?
I may just do a video on it :)
American folk style wrestling, very cheap and consistently uses only proven technique under pressure. Trains you in how to escape, control an opponent and how to finish one. With some 🧠 power you can use pinning techniques as submissions.
What about shuai jiao?
It’s in there you goof
As a Judoka, I'll add a couple of other issues with the martial art- or more specifically where the sport has gone in recent years. .
One is that they took out leg grabs- which means many Judoka now aren't exposed to double leg takedowns unless they cross train in other styles. That being said, I feel upper body takedowns are better for street fighting e.g. Osoto Gari.
The other is that because of the rules of the sport, Judoka can "turtle" to avoid fighting on the ground and wait until you're stood up by the referee after a couple of seconds. Very bad strategy for self defence!
Agree. I also feel that judo guys will risk limb injury in competition instead of break falling to not land on their back and lose which is a bad training habit.
But the turtle aspect is also a problem in Wrestling, so... About the leg grabs, I agree with u.
@@inside_fighting I’m too old for that, I’m breakfalling and taking the loss 😂
@@CabralNick yeah good point
@@NickKano11 me too 🤣🤣🤣 even breakfalling off these throws hurts me
When I roll with guys who only do bjj and never think of self defense. They leave their face wide open for kicks or punches all the time
Their are way more freestyle wrestlers that did better in mma then greco guys. But the best is Folkstyle they dominate all of mma.
aikido is the only one on that list, that deals with sitiational awreness and the possibility of multiple attackers, and is, besides jjj and combat sambo the only system on that list that adresses weapons
Catch Wrestling should be S tier.
Why no Hapkido
A word for Greco - Roman and Pankration:
Greco Roman was devoloped for use during battles, where both you and the enemy would wear some kind of armor, be it leather or bronze, while taking into account there would be hundrends of other people fighting with long spears and swords around you.
As such it puts emphasis on quickly throwing someone to the ground, so hopefully one of yours would stab him, while you escaped to get a weapon.
Delivering a "killing blow" wasn't a necessity.
Pankration was also developed for that reason, to be used in battles, but with a significant difference: it was used for 1 to 1 duells, which often took place before the armies clashed, between champions and / or generals of opposing sides.
As such it does have actual killing blows (in ancient Pankration a very popular hit is the kick in the groin :) ).
Another thing that looks a bit strange at first is favoring hits with open palms (slaps) over just punching. That's because an officer / general would wear a bronze helmet, so a punch wouldn't achieve that much, other than breaking your own knuckles. (soldiers of the time didn't wear metal gloves).
However by slapping, you had your fingers in an "open" position and so the aim wasn't so much to "hit" with the slap, but to grap the helmet with your fingers by inserting the fingers from the inside of the chin (many helmets were of the open type), so you gained an advantage and / or after connecting the slap to try and insert the finger in the eye holes to gauge the oppenents eyes out.... :)
The characteristic boots of Pankration exist to this day, as those who took part in the duels, being officers / champions / generals of the armies, were very rich individuals and could easily afford that protective gear. Most soldiers would be happy with some linnen / leather armor perhaps with some bronze plate in the center, fewer would have a bronze helmet, but leg armor covering up to the knee (greaves) were so expensive and thus rare, only a select few could afford.
In movies and modern depictions of hoplites / roman soldiers you may see them wearing 2 greaves (1 in each leg), but that wasn't the case. To these soldiers (veterans / 1st line shock troops) that equipment were provided by the state and they would in battle wear only 1 greave, in the left leg (the defensive leg), which they would put im front, along with the shield.
However, as said above, those individuals who took part in the duells before a battle, were of such status and financial ability, that they could afford both greaves.
Great comment and i didn’t know this. Super interesting. I’m a fan of open hand smacks anyway tbh
@@inside_fightinghe’s unfortunately bought into the name propaganda. Greco Roman is actually a French Wrestling style of the 1800’s that was renamed for the Olympics. It was created with the idea that upper body control does help to control weapons which is a plus
@@badart3204 It's true that the modern Greco Ronan was named as such for the 1st Olympics of the modern era (or perhaps a bit before that).
Obviously we couldn't have it as it was 2,000+ years ago, could we?
However both the Greeks and the Romans included wrestling in the training of their soldiers, with the Greeks having wrestling as part of the Olympics.
There are also numerous written records of it being used, most famously in "Cyrous Anabasis" , when the 10,000 hoplites Cyrous had hired to overthrow his brother went to meet the rest of the Persian army, but also when the exhiled Spartan King went to the court of the Persian King ( i believe he was Brasidas? may be wrong about the name) and when Alcibiades, the Athenian general seeked refuge in the Thracian tribes.
However, as the Roman empire shaped much of modern Europe, much of it's military and civil traditions survived itself (the early German Empire was named : "the Holy Roman Empire", it is highly likely that the unarmed fighting techniques which the Roman army used and which after several centuries had obviously been accepted as the standard in the countries that made up the former empire, continued to exist, even with changes.
Thus it's natural that the wrestling style and techniques most prominent in France, but also in several other countries of Europe, former parts of the Roman Empire, had it's roots and countless elements derived from the Greek and Roman wrestling styles. Unless we want to accept that the French simply invented the whole thing from the start, at around 1700 to 1800 and then renamed it, while throwing at the garbage bin all the previous knowledge of 2000+ years :)
I am not saying it suervived unchanged though - nothing could (or should) after more than 20 centuries.
Of course in the ancient descriptions from the Olympics, the Greeks never mention: "Greco or Greco Roman wrestling" , as for them it was just "wrestling".
8:03 "Bjj, Oh I'm getting into trouble for this!"
Hahaha, dude already knows the trolls will flood his comments section with nerdy hatemail. 😂
Their is a difference between BBJ and Traditional Ju-Jitsu!