The Divide In The Baseball Sim Community
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- čas přidán 12. 02. 2024
- There's a massive divide in the baseball sim community. Let's talk about it.
Let's Replay videos differ from traditional Let's Play videos in that they focus on organized sports replays. Using games such as APBA, Strat-O-Matic, OOTP, Action PC Baseball, Replay, Diamond Mind Baseball, NPIII, and so on, we replayers play through old baseball seasons one game at a time, reliving the old storylines, learning about the old players, and engaging with counterfactual history in a very unique manner.
For more information about this project and about replays in general, please see my blog at baseballreplayjournal.substac...
I use on Endeavour OS with KDE Plasma. My specs:
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I use Arch, btw. - Hry
I grew up with SOM (and to a lesser extent APBA and PTP) but I never did single season replays. I always played draft leagues with my friends, and I loved that I could SEE the statistical accuracy of the game right there on the cards. That was the appeal for me. I have played OOTP at various points over the past dozen years, and always with the fictional worlds. I appreciate the GM mode with his fingers in the pie telling the manager who to play but without having to manage the individual games.
You're spot on with your thoughts on playing these games.
Great topic. It's been really interesting trying to bridge the divide by taking my experience with Baseball Mogul and bringing it to Season Ticket, and then taking the research from STB and bringing it back to Mogul. (e.g. Mogul had a problem with the runner on 3rd getting thrown out at home too often, and I was able to get this right after doing a TON of research for Season Ticket's runner advancement and "Infield In" rules.)
Baseball Mogul started as a multi-season GM sim, but it now has a 'Replay Mode' and I'm working on adding as-played lineups for every season. There are definitely different play styles, but there are lots of people that enjoy both.
The replayers comments are sad. I look at each of my replays as a chance to learn the history of the era. I love setting up a replay and researching the players that I am not familiar with.
I'm old school and play the pc version of a boardgame, SOM. Actually there are seversl ways to play the game, season by season historical as played, historical mixed projects, or even seasons based on their historical careers performance. Much prefer historical, accurate, and realistic representation of real life players. No desire to do the GM business side of baseball with too much fantasy and/or fiction mixed in too strongly. Some of us old timers still around grew up with just GOTW baseball on tv and our local major league games on radio. Since those days the market is flooded with ways to watch today's game or even review old sports broadcast on youtube. For example, in the old timer days we didn't have many resources to view or hear past seasons like today. So, we had to use more imagination to grasp the real versus it being displayed on the technology platter. So to a degree our imaginations had to suffice to fulfill our fantasy or fictional representation of baseball. The boardgame and dice was all that could provide the tools needed at that time.
I have played APBA off and on for 60 years. The format I like best is playing solo with my favorite team’s schedule . So I would be playing the 2024 season based upon the 2023 cards. I try to keep up with trades etc. What I did was take the actual schedule including off days and number them 1 - 5. Each opposing team I would rank their starting staff 1-5, so whatever numbered day the game was scheduled that would be the opposing starter. That way you don’t start out with the other team’s ace all the time.
I prefer board games, because they can much easier go with you when you must leave the house for a week and don't require a computer. We go to a lake cabin on weekends and holidays, and sometimes at night, the options are to read or play board games.
My thought on the great baseball divide is more about using as-played lineups or making your own managerial decisions with your own lineups.
Maybe that guy didn't know Pete Alexander because he only knew of him as Grover? I had somebody ask me about a basketball player he had never heard of--Lew Alcindor and why he didn't play in the NBA or ABA. He knew who Kareem was.
What I did with SOM was take a year's worth of cards, create leagues of 8 teams of 16 position players (2 at each position) and 9 pitchers by drafting from the whole set of cards. Each team had the no. 1 pick at one of the position player locations and the team that had the last pick at a particular position got the first pick for the back-up player. Then, I'd play a 56 game schedule with 8 games against each opponent. I wasn't interested in reproducing the outcome of a particular MLB season, but something that had relatable real players.
I'm in both camps depending on my mood. I played a lot of Strat as a kid and then moved to Baseball Mogul and OOTP for a little while and now I'm back on APBA/Strat. I never liked using Mogul or OOTP for a single season but had fun with some longer term projects on those. But whatever I'm playing, I always like to put some kind of spin on it.
One of my personal favorites was a fictional narrative that started in 1920 where after the Black Sox Scandal, the MLB goes to the modern free agency model to discourage something like that from ever happening again. I learned about the whole league that way because there were more players that I had to really keep track of then make decisions on.
When I do single season replays with board games, I hate historical lineups that have something like a fast .280 OBP leading off and a slower .340 OBP guy hitting 7th because in that's just an incorrect way to construct a lineup so I will make those tweaks and play better lineups.
The great thing about all these different games is that you can play however you want. It's all a fantasy world in the end.
Enjoyed your well-thought-out video. I think it nudged me back to favoring Strat Windows baseball over OOTP. Now retired, I became more intrigued with OOTP because it was more affordable, but way too deep for me to deal with all the complexities of running a franchise. I actually prefer the wonderful color stadium photos in Strat and the simplicity of recreating a season. I play these games to relax and OOTP is a bit too deep to relax, candidly. You've got to get the Strat settings just right or the AI can overuse pitchers. The OOTP AI seems a bit sharper and I like that it saves complete box scores, which Strat doesn't do. It would be nice if the Strat Windows version could play current seasons instead of the ones just completed, as OOTP does. I supposed Strat's new Baseball Max will accomplish that, but the beta version missed this opening day, something I imagine the Strat folks must be frustrated about. To me, Max also will have a limited market due to its rather lofty price. I guess I fall in the older user group you outlined in your video and I'm more comfortable there. Thanks for sharing the good context that should help computer users decide which game versions are best to be spending, and not wasting their time.
Interesting topic; & for me I tend to prefer season replays via managing or just observing. My board game of choice was Statis-Pro, way back when.
Now I prefer Baseball Mogul, which the 2023 (best to date, imho) version now offers 'one-off' games; which I had been asking for, for years. :)
OOTP is 3 games in one. GM, Season, and Perfect Team. I believe OOTP is often unfairly judged by the community, sort of like it's made by EA or the like. I hear replay members say things like "This team obviously under performed in real life" if playing anything other than OOTP. However, if it's OOTP they immediately blame the game engine for deviations.
I personally love both OOTP, APBA, and Replay are my go to baseball games.
I think you make a really good point - and I agree that the community generally seems to be more negative on OOTP than on other games.
OOTP is basically made by EA at this point.
There's a definite middle ground here. I enjoy playing through historical seasons with the real players producing realistic results but I don't want to have to use the exact same lineups the real teams used. To me is doesn't make sense to do an alternate simulation if you can't react to things that happen within the game world the way a real manager would. I also enjoy exploring alternate baseball realities like early integration and expansion or teams playing in different eras
.
I'm an oddity...I'm in that older age range that was talked about....but I loved playing Earl Weaver Baseball (EWB) (manager mode; on my C64 and Amiga)...OOTP is the closest to that for me. I've played Baseball Mogul but never really got into it...haven't played the others. I like the flexibility of EWB and OOTP and enjoy managing the game (sorry AI manager). But I've also played OOTP as just the GM...it's fun...but I don't feel as connected to "action"/game when I do that.
Older guy here. I've played both, but BM, OOTP, ST, etc had subpar AI when I last played them. I had multiple games where my manager let the pitcher bat and then immediately lifted him for a reliever to start the next half inning. That's enough to make me stop playing a game. That was years ago, so I really need to give those games another go. It's also an issue for me that the stats seem quite off compared to say Strat and there's no underlying (or at least wasn't) mechanics that the players can tap into. I understand how APBA works, but have no idea of the statistical integrity of the newer games.
I wonder how many have played a season in strat or apba ? Also doing stats. Yet I have heard how accurate they are. I play what if's. 8 World Series Champions playing in a 162 season. Only 1 will win in my league.
You brought up money ball. Those a's teams of moneyball won nothing. No Appearances in the world series.
You don't have to be an old man to play baseball mogul.I am living proof of it.
It isn't complicated and no one has hit.Seventy home runs and I have played multiple seasons.
Your review was excellent.
I appreciate both formats but I lean traditional engines as I can appreciate the history of the game & individual player skills from a manager perspective- it feels more connected seeing the game engine but I’ve enjoyed OTP in the past
I’m confused. C&D vs CPU have always had a divide. Apples to oranges. Because some C&D vendors put out CPU games this has become a “crossover”. But the experiences are completely different.
I just set random nationality to 100% for international stuff. Playing in the 1940s and its working well.
This actually sounds like a lot of fun.
@@baseballreplayjournal I'd like to take this moment to say I hate Joe DiMaggio. That man has stolen 4 world series from me. I'm playing the dodgers. I understand its not super historical to use international stuff this early but that's why OOTP is great.
I usually agree with most of your video posts, this one however has me confused. In my opinion , you make generalized assumptions about people that play OOTP and C&D game that I believe miss the boat. Because of that, I think your conclusions are off. Just my opinion, not criticism of your post. Keep up the good work.
Sorry I caught your channel just recently and realize I'm late to posting but thought it might be helpful:
I've played OOTP for numerous seasons under numerous versions of the game. IMHO you have many misconceptions about OOTP and it's perceived limitations. A lot of what you say that you can't do in OOTP you actually can do.
You said @1:32 (ish) you are the GM of the team. While that can be true, you can be the GM. You don't have to be. You can also be the manager. You can also be the owner. You can be all three at the same time. Or not. You can also be the commissioner. You can be the commissioner of the league, the owner of the team, the gm of the team and the manager of the team. All at the same time. Or not. To say that you have to be one, can only be one in any season replay scenario is incorrect.
You said @ 1:40 (ish) you have an owner that tells you what he wants you to do (paraphrasing)....or not. You don't have to use that function. You can be the owner or not. You can have a computer owner or not. Why someone would want an owner when one is playing a single season replay is not something I would do but hey, to each his own
You said @ 1:45(ish) you hire a manager. Again, you can hire a manager or you can be the manager. Player choice
You said @ 1:50 (ish) most of your game is playing spreadsheet ball. Not the complete picture. You can just play spreadsheet ball. However you can also manage the game itself. Now you can't swing the bat or call the pitch but all the other functions you can do. Now, in OOTP23 you can even watch every single game (I believe that every at bat is just one pitch, which kinda equals one roll of the die). You can also, if you want be very hands on in the minors or you can let the computer handle the minors.
You can have real life transactions that perfectly match history in OOTP (you can play the role of commissioner in OOTP. You can make the trades on the exact day they were made in history if you would like!)
When you talk about people not using real life line-ups in OOTP. You can, if you would like, play manager and you can duplicate every line-up for every game in OOTP for any season.
When you talk about creating a simulation world, in OOTP, it is online leagues that provide that for me and most others. It is online leagues where OOTP really shines. However, if your jam is solo play, from years gone past, playing one team, historically correct, with or without injuries, with or without rain outs, with or without FA, with or without player development, with or without a rookie draft, with or without foreign free agents, etc. yeah, OOTP can do that.
In OOTP you can use the financials or not. You can play a 2024 season with free agency or not. Same with a 1924 season or any other season. You can have team salary caps or not. TV revenue or not, etc.
IMHO, you may have just scratched the surface of what OOTP is and can be.
Yes OOTP players may say it should be possible to have anything happen...or not. You can play without injuries. You can play a single season and have every single player at every position miss every single game they did in real life. Or you can micro manage it down to every inning matching historical accuracy if that is your jam. You can copy exact pitching changes inning per inning game per game in OOTP as real life if you would like.
Your opinion of the OOTP mindset @ 5:00 (ish) is again only half correct. You can be a person that does not follow a historical single season in many different ways. However, you can also be the person that plays OOTP to historical accuracy. Or as good as a computer sim can do at this time in computer sim capabilities.
@ 7:00 (ish) again, not all OOTP players play the same way. I'm not sure how many people you have interviewed however I can tell you there are numerous OOTP players that will only play a certain type of game with certain rules. With so many different ways to play OOTP by having so much control over so much of every single aspect of the game, or not, to say that OOTP players all play like this, or most like that, is well not factual. You can go to the forums and see how many different ways there is to play the game and that is just by the people that post. Some guys will only play the dead ball era leagues. Some only during the 50's. Some without FA. Some with. Some can trade draft picks some guys will only play in a league that draft picks can't be traded. And when playing in a solo league, well you can make your own rules.
To summarize; maybe OOTP has more to offer than you think?
I'm aware that you can play OOTP differently. Look around my channel - you'll discover that I'm in the middle of an OOTP project right now that is a replay project, not a GM project.
My comments focus more on what the focus is generally in the OOTP community.
Thanks for the comment!
i think ootp has younger streamers than strat and apba, but if you follow the ootp message boards its a lot of the same names on there consistently the last 15-20 years and heavily make up the part of the community that has added the most modding to the game to bring it to life.
That's really interesting, actually.
I've noticed that OOTP seems to be heavily recommended on places like /r/baseball on Reddit. Not sure what the average age of those commentators is, though...
Appreciate the topic. I wonder if it’s more infrequent for people to play both like you are doing. We probably tend to what we like better. I personally play c&d, and enjoy managing game by game in a replay vice a fictional or gm world, so no interest in ootp. But glad there is stuff for all enjoyment styles.
I like playing both.
Anybody have a good app?They use to generate schedules and keep track of standings.I'm new
OOTP stats can be WAY off.. wish I could put the engine of say action or strat with these graphics
Yep. I think there will always be a "divide" if games with the graphics of OOTP can't generate realistic results. I simmed the 2004 season and the Red Sox (98-64 in real life) finished 3rd in the AL East (with 81 wins) and the Yankees (101-61 in real-life) finished last (69-93). David DeJesus won the MVP award.
The difference between OOTP and APBA is the same between the books "Lord of the Rings" and "The Life and Times of Charlemagne"
what is wrong with Action pc??
I think each game's followers tend to have a superiority complex, to the detriment of the entire hobby. Sports board game players are dinosaurs and dinosaurs never seem to realize they're about to die out. It would be far healthier for customers to be happy someone is playing ANY company's game, but they all seem to refuse to do so. Because of that, they'll all die off.
Yes, eventually we all die off generation after generation. Yes, in some cases players have a superiority complex about their game of choice. But it's their game of choice and another game may not interest them. The younger generation may prefer the baseball video or the OOTP/Action PC games versus the baseball boardgame converted for play on the PC. One thing on my way to dieing off 😂 my game of choice has provided more baseball pc game than I can possibly ever finish playing it all out. Plus, there are the game players versus some of these guys that play, but also collect games for their CZcams channels. I do enjoy the game reviews and like to compare those games to what I play. However; the one game is good enough for my taste and since I'm dieing off, no need to spend on other games which probably will never be played or played out.
Interesting, but whats wrongwith finding out who the Best teams are of each decade?? then have playoffs to see who IS the Best!!!!!!!!!!!!!??