VALDOR: Birth of the Imperium by Chris Wraight | Warhammer 40k Lore
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- We're out of sequence, but who cares when the book is this good? Valdor: Birth of the Imperium gives us a look into the end of the Unification Wars, and asks the big questions about exactly how much free will anyone in the Imperium of Warhammer 40k really has...
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The Warhammer tea could be called Uni-tea, and it could be really expensive, and when people ask why, you could say "the emperor says we should have unity at any price."
Ararat is where Noah's Ark ended up. Mount Sinai is where the stone tablets came from.
if you buy into those particular fairytales.....
I do like that fantasy places from mythology end up in modern fantasy stories, though.
I swear the atheists are more obnoxious than the holyrollers.
@@TrippyTheShroomit's gotten that way hasn't it
Yep, the place where the ark, which saved humanity ended up, is the same place where the thunder warriors end up abandoned. A very nice metaphor I thought.
"There's always people bickering about the location of the Imperial Palace"
Mira: Well if you want a beacon of hope it should be high
Ian: Right, we'll flatten the Himalayas and put a city on it, madness.
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be 😂
You got to be realistic - Logan nine... wait wrong grim dark 😂
I actually saw two people arguing about the location of the palace and the golden throne.
One said it was in England where warhammer world currently stands...
The other said the Himalayas (which is where the lore says it is)
@@StigPrice The England thing comes from ~2nd Edition stuff that suggested that 1) the throne itself was directly above Nottingham and 2) the dungeon was rooted in the deep remains of what used to be Birmingham (because 1st and 2nd Ed lore writers loved to give Birmingham a kicking every now and then). I think even then it was meant to be tongue in cheek
@@josephgarvin3998 yeah there's a planet called Birmingham in the lore...it's not a great place to live lol..
there's a bit in Master of Mankind where some reinforcements are being taken into the basement of the palace so they can go fight in the webway. as they descend, they pass what is identified as Kathmandu. that's a pretty solid marker for the palace's location.
Chris Wraight is one of my favorite authors for 40k. He tends to have a melancholy style that for me really defines the setting. I highly recommend his Vaults of Terra trilogy, which focuses on Inquisitors investigating a mysterious threat on the Throneworld.
True! He really gets the tragic paradise lost vibe so well. Like, at every turn, the 40k verse is defined by decisions made with good or at least human intentions that ultimately end up ruining what they strove to create. It's like ancient Greek or Shakespearean tragedy. It's why this verse has such a profound impact, on me, at least.
Wrath of Iron is also a solid recommend by him. And if you want to get into AoS, Gates of Azyr is an older book (literally the first) and it has a bit of weirdness to it, but it's a really good read despite that.
Chris Wraight's an al-Wraight lad.
@@dekai7992 Yeah? What would you call the War of the Beast then? Kinda seems like the setting isn’t always this tragedy and deserves to be seen as ridiculous sometimes.
@@ImrahilToChaos The Imperial victory in the War of the Beast serves as the turning point, the peak from which the Imperium falls, drunken on its perceived invincibility.
100%. Sea of souls is the only decent Dawn of Fire book because of him
One thing about the thunder warriors that’s never mentioned is that they are a really on the nose historical reference. The ill disciplined, brawling, street fighting gang that were useful in a despots rise to power. Who then have their leaders killed by a more professional successor force (who would be better suited to fighting along side a standing army and outside the context of a struggle for power). That’s the story of the Thunderwarriors in 30k, as well as the Stormtroopers of 1930’s Germany, who when they fulfilled their usefulness were supplanted by the SS during the night of the long knives. There is even a lightning reference in both the of there names.
Never occured to me, but you're right! Dang, and I'm German.
The analogy falls apart a bit when you consider that in the night of the long knives, the SA were all military veterans who got assasinated in the cover of the night by inexperienced civilians wanting to play war.
@@glandhound i think youre confusing night of the broken glas (in 1938 civilians attacking jewish populations) and night of the long knives (in 1934 Hitler rounding up and killing the SA)
@@glandhoundremember that the whole generation had experienced war and that most of the SS involved were vets like their SA counterparts.
The underlying conflict was that Röhm envisioned a people's army, led by himself, based on his thugs, while Hitler needed the Army and their professional officers to go to war.
Same goal, different roads, and like all despots, solved with murder.
Also, the analogy fails because the SS was part of the SA at the time, organisationally, not a separate entity. Police was also involved in the purge, as were army units.
But yeah, Warhammer rhymes a bit with real world events
@@StickWithTrigger No, the SS are the inexperienced civilians wanting to play war.
that tea break phenominal, arguably the best thing I've seen on youtube.
If you do start tea reviews, I cannot say enough good things about Lee Rosie’s tea, independent and based in Nottingham, sadly their cafe is no more, but their online selection is *fantastic*
Bastard Scale Update! Petronella viva is not here!
Lucius: 27
Fabius: "blown up the scale"/contested by Ian
Erebus: 12
The Lion: 9
Bequa: 9
Fulgrim: 8.5
Wsoric the Demon: 8
Brynngar Sturmdreng: 7
Julius EC: 6
Zadkiel: 5.5
Marius EC: 5.5
Solomon EC: 3
Unification Wars Emperor: 3
Everyone else in Descent of Angels: 3
Valdor: 1
Iacton Cruze: 1
Thanks for remembering to specify the numbers! Love you guys!❤
Custodes are artisanal free range Space Marines.
the emperor bought them at whole foods
It's a completely different process
It's like comparing free range eggs with factory farmed milk
Thunder Warriors were Wish Space marines, if you don't mind the mixing of metaphors
@@adrianchalice they were a "get you by" bitz box conversion. the emperor had his *real* plan but he needed something robust and semi-diposable NOW.
Who on earth could hate Mira? Impossible!
They would have to be tainted by Khorne himself. No other explanation makes any sense....
I think its really interesting that the emperor says "I will become something LESS than human" its like he knows how powerful he will become but despairs at how it will separate him from his humanity and to me shows how empathetic he is toward humanity and understands what it would mean to lose it
It leans in to the criticisms the other Perpetuals made of him, too. He was warned that what we was doing would end in disaster, and it did. His lack of humanity is what led to Monarchia, the abduction of Angron, the council of Nicae, and ultimately the Heresy.
Might be a way to manipulate Valdor and sounding humble
"The Primarchs were sucked-off into the Warp". Is this the story arc, where we see Ian becoming a worshipper of 'She Who Thirsts"? 🤔😁
And this event will forever be known in lore as "The Great Sucking"
They always say "she who thirsts" but never what she thirsts for 🤔🤔🤔
The audiobook of this is fabulous. Those cut away interview bits are done as tape recorded sessions. It's fantastic.
There's something about Chris Wraight's style I don't quite gel with normally, but I absolutely adore this story. The nascent Dark Angels powering up their armour in the ambush is one of the iconic moments in the entire franchise for me (up there with the first encounter with the Thunder Warriors revving their chainaxes back in The Last Church), and I identify with the protagonist of this story - the law is only just insofar as it produces justice, and if the system produces injustice, it cannot be justified. Her discovery by the end of the story that despite her best efforts justice was just a façade is heartbreaking and insurmountable. Having her ideology broken and having to remove herself from the world is in some ways a worse fate than the people getting shot by boltguns.
"Knowing that this toy franchise stands on the shoulders of people who care enough to give it this context" is the perfect way to sum up why I love Black Library. Thank you for the words, Mira! And I totally agree, it was a great book :D
just found this playlist and its bloody brilliant not only to have ian shooting out info and background but also mira's pov as someone new to the world makes me feel less overwhelmed and daft for not knowing whos a whatsit mecanicist etc
Ian, that insight that the Emperor only lets the Primarchs call him "Father" because that lets him re-gain some of the control he lost when they were "sucked off" is really interesting. It's going to sit in my brain for a bit while I run through the implications.
I don’t know if it was for the sake of Mira, but I’m pretty sure the Emperor refers to the Custodes as his sons and says something like “the Primarchs call me father but I don’t know why because the custodes are my sons”
Loved the book.
Really a major work for the Thunder Warriors. There was Master of Mankind, The Outcast Dead, Dreams of Unity and even The Last Church, but this book shed the most light on what they were and how they were organized.
I also thought it was fun that Ushotan's legion was named as the fourth legion, the Iron Lords, which is shown in the middle of the siege of Maulland Sen, and he essentially turns traitor out of bitterness. It's basically Perturabo and the Iron Warriors, right down to the legion number and their specialization.
Love this book. The audio production on audible is phenomenal
Steven Pacey is amazing - would recommend the first law series by Joe Abercrombie that he narrates. Probably the best narration on audible.
One of the best audio productions for sure!
You've just made me buy it.
@@LokkenUKI'll second that
It’s a good episode when I drove an extra 10 minutes around my neighbourhood to make sure I got the bastard scale completed :)
How does the Emperor see the Primarchs is a very interesting question. In the Dark Imperium trilogy, Guilleman remembers when he was before the Golden Throne and The Emperor referred to him as no more than a tool. He starts thinking back and admits that he can never remember the man he considers his Father ever referring to him or the other Primarchs as his sons.
I read The Master of Mankind just before Valdor and thought it was interesting the completely different way the Emperor explained it to Arkhan Land, kinda saying they were weapons, nothing more, only allowing them to call him "Father" because what else would would they call the being that created them and gave them life?
Really depends on which Primarch, he definitely calls Hours 'son' at different points.
In the end and the death books, (one of them, I forget) there's a line (by malcador, I believe), where he speculates that after all of the great crusade and the heresy, big E started to actually consider the primachs his sons
Ian i have one recommendation for you:
Please dont rush through these books so fast! No need to hurry!
Please, i think we all love the details and thoughts about everything even the tangents!
For me it always feels like you rush through and drag Mira with you.
I think Mira would really enioy the short story "Dreams of Unity" which is really the best story on the Thunder Warriors and their being tragic characters.
Mount Ararat is where the ark landed after the flood.It's in Armenia.. Interestingly this mountain was apparently a holy site in the local religion long before Christianity existed(Armenia was one of the first countries to convert an mass to Christianity during the Roman period)
The mountain where Noses brought the tablet a containing the ten commandments was called Mount Sinai/Mount Horeb and is located in the Sinai Peninsula between Egypt and southern Israel . There is a Catholic convent of Nuns located their since the medieval period.
It is possible that in 40( setting the Emperor may have been the inspiration for Moses and/or the histrovial figure of Hammurabi the two famous ancient law givers
I was shocked by how good I found Valdor to be. I bought it because i wanted to learn more about the Custodes, and there are relatively few Custodes specific books (funnily, Chris Wraight wrote one of the others), but it's actually really cool.
I love how things are even less 40k than in Horus Heresy. Earth still has lots of non-Imperial stuff remaining, the High Lords still have liberal ideals, and the imperial project feels fresh and new.
I honestly rate Wraight as one of the best Black Library writers now. His stuff is a step beyond basic action stuff (which can be good too).
27:10 fun fact: when everything goes to sh*t in "Legion" and the influence of Chaos suddenly grows, theres the smell of wyrmwood on the air as well.
One of the great Warhammer books, glad Mira liked it !
Such a great book for early imperium lore, I don’t think any imperium-focussed book is set earlier chronologically
"I've seen sea lasers on C-Span" ahahah
No one outside the US should have to watch C-Span.
One of my favorite books from BL. We get to see the Thunder Warriors, even if only for a brief moment. I'm actually scratch building a force of Thunder warriors with a friend. We are going to use the BetaGarmon Blackshield rules for them if they ever end up a on a gaming table. Love the book clubs, keep them up :)
Loved this book. So much background lore that I'd wanted to know for decades.
Wooooo Parable of the Sower reference. That’s awesome cause I thoroughly enjoyed that book. Would love if Mira talked a little bit more about it.
There is a Thunder Warrior model in the "armour through the ages" kit as they were essentially wearing Mk.1 power armour. It has no rules.
35:50 I actually had the same thought as Mira when I first read the book last year. Was pretty sure it just signified the 1st Legion.
The tea is a great addition to the format :)
I am SO GLAD that I just read Penitent the other week or that would have been a heck of a spoiler
One of my favourite Warhammer books.
Not like other books because it's not all violence all the time. I think the first shot fired is like 10 chapters in.
absolutely one of my favourites from the horus heresy series. such a great story. chris wraight writes stories that should just be straight adapted into the upcoming amazon film/tv series. birth of the imperium could be like the first film before they start doing horus heresy stuff. his other recent book sea of souls is like the perfect introduction to the warp and a bunch of other basic 40k concepts, a bit of a event horizon style story, which is also really easy to imagine as a feature film.
Can't wait for when you guys get to the Last church, that one is one of my favourites. In my opinion should be the first adaptations for the Warhammer shows/movie
My first 40k book. I love it very much. It setups what Imperium will become really well.
Man I wish GW comes around to make a game set during the unification wars and make the Emperor the exterior threat to the other factions
I give you the most British thing to ever happen on a British YT channel about a British tabletop game. 24:50
Really looking forwards to what Mira thinks of The Last Church. If you both like this pre-30k stuff, you'll like that one, I think.
Finished this story yesterday. I have…feelings
Mount Ararat is in modern-day Turkey and is where Noah's Ark came to rest after the flood (Genesis 8:4). The Hebrews received the two stone tablets with the 10 commandments on Mount Sinai (Exodus 19), also called Mount Horeb (Deuteronomy 4:15)
Mount Ararat is where Noah's Arc ends up after the flood. 👍
Ian and Mira make great guides to the Grim Darkness. They strike the correct light tone for this subject.
18 Varieties of Warhammer Tea? Some of the Chaos Ones are going to be a bit challenging.
25:10 it’s Warhammer 4-tea-k 😜
Would love to see Mira and Ian’s take on more Warhammer the old world fiction. Maybe graham mcneils lords of the lance?
Came for the book review, stayed for the tea review.
As mentioned by others - if you want a whole story of The Emperor in a one one with one other character - read The Last Church.
It’s in the next Heresy book :) Mechanicum is already read
We need the Tanna tea from Cain!
Lovely as always, you two!
The more of these I read, the more I think the real magic trick of the Heresy is assembling such a killer's row of inspired, motivated authors. I'm very curious to see what Wraight gets up to now that the Heresy and (seemingly) his other two series are finished because it seems like BL has correctly pegged him as one of their premier authors.
On the topic of "is it fair to consider the Emperor the father of the Primarchs?", I don't think there's a perfect answer and I'm suspicious of the answer He himself gave. I suspect the best answer is going to come from Horus's Primarchs novel because of just how much he values the time he had with the Emperor as the only primarch.
You do know that sooner or later you'll both have to make a review of the Night Lords Trilogy, right ?
Mira announced that when she reaches 10,000 subs she will read it!
The scoring on Bastard Scale is like the scoring on QI.
Mira's Y30K bug joke! :) :)
Great review video, loved the Valdor novel, and Chris Wraight is one of the best HH authors. Also extra bonus points for Review n Tea :)
I just love watching these when, having read (listened to) the book, the memories come flooding back. The excitement about Valdor being in the 40K verse is also infectious at the beginning - wish it never got spoiled for me *sad face*
When Ian said 'Brilliant' after pouring the tea, that was the most British thing ever.
Great presentation guys.
Love this book club chatty-channel. 1000/100 👍
Loving the Tea moment, very civil : )
Cracking review of Valdor, one of my favourite books (more character and less bolter porn).
The Last Church - Would love to see a book club review of this short story.
Second The Last Church suggestion! It’s also pre-unification so can be read without spoilers. It’s also a proper short story.
I'll say what I always say: Love both your channels, love your team-ups, love the action plot summaries. "In a world where Ian and Mira review WH40k books!"
Regarding the bit around 11:00 - hearing you say how the Emperor gave up his own humanity to save the Imperium reminds me so much of the fourth Dune book! You know, the one literally called "God-Emperor of Dune"? There you have a similar plot device where a benevolent dictator goes so far in his benevolence that he makes his subjects hate him with the goal that if they ever become strong enough to kill him - this almost omniscient and omnipotent being - they automatically became strong enough to endure the future he saw in his visions, thereby actually fulfilling the dictator's goal of making humanity strong.
It's a pity that all that FTL is impossible without special navigator mutants...
brian cranston emperor is something i never knew i wanted but now that i know its all i want
😂 you're right, he'd be amazing
Stephen Hawking would have been awesome too.
@@glandhound 😂😂😂
Big Es pre Golden Throne throne, is probably right on top of where the peak of Everest was/is. As thats the level of hubris E has.
For a little more thunder warrior lore , the outcast dead is great.
I think Mont Ararat is the place where the Ark lands
Y30K bug! Brilliant. Actually laughed out loud.
And Ian completely leaving Mira hanging 😂
I would say Alpharius’s primarch novel is kind of Valdor’s sequel and mostly set on this era
This is still my favorite 40k book!
So could we say a) The Thunder Warriors Are Poundlands/superdrug, b) Space marines Are Sainsburys/Tescos and c) Custodes are M and S Foods/Waitrose? Just trying to get an idea.....
this was excellent... I really enjoyed this episode...
Enjoyed this book a lot.
Have you considered doing Watchers of the Throne? The first book particular is excellent!
ah oh ah oh no I haven't read this one but can't stop watching ....ahhhh ! :) love bookclub !
More bookclub! It's gonna be a good day :) especially since Valdor is such an interesting book!
I LOVE how much Mira loves learning about the Emperor because I feel the same way
I am the farthest thing from a W30K and W40K lore expert. I have read all of the now concluded Horus Heresy and associated books/novels/novellas and that saga was what I started with and have been digging through in random order the 40K books. 100% accurate or not, this is how I think of the main Terran classes presented in the books:
Emperor = President, Prime Minister, Top Dog of all
Malcador [with Erda for a time] = Chief Of Staff
Valdor [and his successors] = Head of the Secret Service
Adeptes Custodes = Secret Service, Emperor's Security
Thunder Warriors = Terra-bound, imperfect soldiers, fodder on the ground for uniting a fractured Terra, Space Marines beta versions
Primarchs = The Emperor's Military Generals
Space Marines = Galactic Soldiers serving under the 20 [18] Primarchs
Primaris Space Marines = improved, v2 Space Marines
High Lords of Terra = Congress, Parliament after the Emperor's emtombment on the Golden Throne
Amazing book. Chris Wraight is one of the Greats!
Love this book. I think Chris Wraight slowly overtaking Abnett as my favourite 40k author.
I mean...really Astartes comes from the mythical goddess Astarte, a goddess of fertility and sexual love. And considering how much of the space marines whole thing is about their genetic makeup and their creation through gene seed its not exactly a subtle metaphor.
Yeah, I got huge Arkhan Land vibes from Amar Astarte being the basis of Adeptus Astartes name.
"For Unity!"
Please read ascension day. Its excellent.
Please put more tea in Book Club
Best duo in 40k
Sanguinininius is a hero to a whole chapter of courageous East Finchley Boy Scouts, the Bluebottles.
Mt. Ararat was where Noah's Ark lands after the Flood recedes. Mt. Sinai is where Moses gets the first tablets of the Ten Commandments
‘Allegedly’ 😂
Can we say for definite that the Emperor of Man was NOT born in Basingstoke?
Given how excited Mira gets for the Emperor, would you guys consider doing The Last Church?
they are just about to get to the first anthology of the horus heresy anyway, tales of heresy. book 10. which includes the last church.
This book sounds like Hot Fuzz if Jim Broadbent won.
MalcadOR, ValdOR, EmperOR - Maybe "Emperor" is actually his name, not a title, and it's all just a big misunderstanding. Or maybe he's a Time Lord like the DoctOR
Just started listening. Here for best girl Uwoma Kandawire 40k' only good cop!
The objectively most moral human character, given that she isn't implicitly or explicitly supporting a bunch of space nazis and is basically introduced with "soldiers should not be in control, a state is not meant to be merely the backend of the military".
Mount Ararat is, traditionally, where Noah's Ark finally landed. There is (obviously) no archaeological evidence to support the tradition.
I think they chose the place to be the end of the Thunder Warriors because of the symbolism of it as a place where humanity is reborn (first via Noah and his family, second the end of the Thunder Warriors and beginning of the Astartes/Great Crusade).
I think Mira should read The Last Church - that should quench her Emporor thirst!
She has now…
Loving this one. Its a great little book and im glad youve read it
A good analogue for Age of Strife pre Unifications wars Earth, would be Fist of the North Star Earth. The other big difference between the Custodies and Space Marines. Is that Custodies are not made from any template and are enhanced (from the best available on Terra) baseline human stock on Earth. They are what the EoM considered the apex of human race and why nothing extra like special artificial organs like in the Space Marines. Some argue that the Custodies are in fact Golden Men remade by the EoM hence why they where Gold colored armor and are only enhanced baseline human form. Hence why female Custodies don't break the lore since their creation has nothing to do with Y chromosome, still doesn't explain why no Pysker Custodies though.
I would love in Unification War series (if we ever get it, GW's writers want to do it by the powers that be has said no so far) where get a reason the EoM killed the Thunder Warriors in way he did. Because based on everything we know about how unstable the hot housed Thunder Warrior genome was, any that survived the Unification War were gonna die, badly, as their bodies rapidly failed. Image a scene with the 2nd Primarch and the EoM, not the gene-son of EoM, but the Thunder Warriors 2nd Primarch. Where the 2nd see's his Thunder Warriors becoming more and more unstable mentally and genetically. Asking the EoM if the Thunder Warriors who don't die in battle, are not going to have good ending. With the EoM telling him no, they will die badly. Then later the 2nd asking with his dying breath after receiving mortal wounds in middle of Unification Wars, begging the EoM to give the Thunder Warriors a good death. The EoM promises to make it painless when time comes, for the 2nd to begging him no. That don't put them down like animals, that let them die like men and the warriors that they are. Showing how human still the EoM was in those days and that he fulfilled his promise to the 2nd.
Want a cup of AstarTEA
Do you have an RSS feed for the podcast version? I can' get it on my podcatcher... :(
My favorite female character in Warhammer 40,000 is Nasturi, Her relationship before Corax was a beautiful one, like a mix between a friend, a admirer, and almost the mother.
I know you guys are into 30k but you've got to give Peter Fehervari a shot. They are books unique for Black Library in that they are genuine cosmic horror. The books perfectly capture the dread being in a universe full of malign entities and alien threats. You will never think about Chaos the same way again. I would probably recommend Fire Caste fist, in that it follows an imperial guard regiment and having read Ghosts you'll feel at home following their lives and deployment.
I started that one with the awful Confederate Guard where every unit is has it's own terrible nickname and special equipment and I got a few pages in and couldn't go back.
@@ArbitorIan It was a confusing read with all the nicknames and oddball equipment, but I enjoyed the story about a battlefront that was a dumping ground for Imperial Guard units that were political problems on their home worlds and an experiment by a Tau faction that's gone rogue.
I have tried reading Reverie, several times in fact. I think i'm just not smart enough because I every time I took a break, I would have to go back several chapters to get back on track on what was actually happening.
Great review
Amazing episode. :)
How was there no reference to Tanna when you were mentioning Tea?