Though your primitive brain cortices are incapable of comprehending the complexity of the entities of whom you speak, I, a phaeron of the Necrontyr, do not have an argument against this logical assertion.
The only person in the 'lore' space who is actually properly thinking about what it all means, not just summarising codex lore for people who don't read
I wish I had read the books before seeing all these poorly made videos with massive spoilers. I introduced a friend to the book series and told him not to google anything, he's reading the Horus heresy series and it is blowing his little mind.
@@jiblyjably Seconded.. only started properly reading the Horus Heresy AFTER I'd seen many videos detailing many spoilers in an offhand way. But then again, I've spoiled things for myself simply by looking them up on a wiki. 'Caliban, huh... Completely destroyed, you say? I guess I haven't gotten to that yet..."
@@Awoken_Remmuzyeah, especially when his own comment elsewhere didn't even engage with the content of the video, was just being a reactionary dipshit about off topic nonsense
I love videos that take an academic approach to deconstructing fantastical settings. Too many other Warhammer channels get bogged down with minutiae and end up missing the forest for the trees, but you manage to keep your argument comprehensive but still focused and entertaining. Great job, as always!
@Chaselazuli If you're familiar with 40K lore and Big E in particular you'd have noted the sarcastic humour in OP's post immediately. The Emperor consistently claimed to not be a God, while basically going about doing everything possible to convince people of the opposite.
Well it’s an unscientific concept without any reasonable method of falsification. For this reason no one who understands the scientific method ever actually tries to prove or disprove the existence of god. It’s a perfectly pointless exercise.
@@guyfawkes8873 sigh There would be one of these people around. There may not be empirical evidence that'll 100% put it beyond any doubt either way but science isn't the only form of knowledge and I don't see why anything would HAVE TO get to 100% certainty, 51% will do. It's not true either to say anyone who udnerstands the scientific method doesn't bother. Plenty of people who do try to prove and disprove God.
@@guyfawkes8873 Isn't the whole point of the warp and belief manifesting into actual things show you that the 40k universe doesn't operate under just a scientific method. Time doesn't work but does, gravity doesn't work but does, It is and isn't. I mean, people literally have souls in this universe. In the 40k universe projecting your sacred cow of scientific method makes no sense.
I'd count the emperor as a self-Lisan al Gaib. The Emperor is not a God who chose to appear to everyone as a 10ft Gold clad super human who performs miracles
His height isn’t fixed. It changes in size a multitude of times. Essentially, he is as tall as he wants to be. That being said, he is listed as being 14ft.
It's really telling that sometimes we crave consistency to lore and concepts within a made-up world when, at the same time, we can barely agree on those same items irl.
@@alejandrorp5160 Bro, you're not funny. Please. the cringe is too much. Also, you left your fedora on the ground while parading around like a total fool.
One of the reasons people can engage with fictional lore as deeply (and pedantically) as they do is because we want a *known* world. A known world is safe, a known world is able to be operated efficiently, a known world fits better with how lazy our brains are, etc. The real world is, to a variable extent for each individual, eventually unknowable. There are some things you *must just accept as it*, but in fiction... truth is attainable. Not in Warhammer, though. That's the point :)
No, Agtatha Christie is, in fact, all of the Chaos gods who, in fact, don't actually exist because their real purpose is to distract the readers so that they won't realize who the killer is before the book ends. The standards for innovation in the detective fiction genre have just become ridiculous enough that it was a necessary ploy; a locked room and an unreliable narrator just don't cut it anymore, so what's an author to do?
@@Malky24 "oighkaohsagdgh[afqhof[h[hah[ahahahaha" Ms Blaaarple replied "Indeed I do find Mr Smythe a bit suspicious myself, now where is Smithers with the tea"
An interesting thing that happens when horus meets russ for the first time horus asks russ what he thinks about some of the people on fenris calling russ a god and about the emperor's statements that there are no gods. Russ doesn't say what he believes explicitly but hides it inside his answer which IIRC is something along the lines of "when a golden giant comes from the sky to tell you there are no gods it is not hard to understand the way of things." Which I take to mean that Russ doesn't care about what the term god means, doesn't care what the people of fenris take it to mean, and isn't worried about how that aligns with what the emperor says the term means. If the people of fenris see the space wolves as the dead battling in heaven against the foes of the allfather how is that meaningfully different than the truth except in the words that are being used? And it is very funny to me that he basically does what logar does, which is to see a golden man come from the sky and decide that's the god he's been worshiping this whole time, but instead of making a huge deal out of it and getting caught up in a search for truth the way logar does he just kinda shrugs about it and goes back to business as usual.
I'm at a theology conference right now. Really tired after a day of talks, I come back to my airbnb for a nap. Oh, my favourite 40k youtuber has made a new vid. What? No! It's theology 😱😭
The idea that belief is what "powers" gods is actually pretty old, John Keats poem Hyperion is about the concept and he wrote that in the 1600s. Couldn't agree more that Pratchett and Gaiman brought it to a fine art though.
This is your best video, imo. Well put and informed. I love your stuff because you display a genuine understanding of the themes of 40k and don't get bogged down with hashing out "absolute truths" in something that, by design, is muddy and unclear.
I think the Leagues had the best shot at being serious atheists- the 9th edition codex points out that they don’t have a name for the Great Rift, to cut down on superstition. They instead have a name for each of the observed warp storms. And yet, even they have created a religion with rituals and taboos. They’d balk at the idea if you pointed it out to them, but the fervor that they protect their Ancestors exposes the truth of their situation. The Votann are not Gods, but for all purposes they are treated as such.
@@AriSolMorningstarwhich has a purpose with how the warp works though. If you firmly (and collectively) believe some actions will keep the warp at bay, they it will to some degree, because Chaos works on the basis of belief.
@@AriSolMorningstarBecause they are soldiers? Tools even. Do not conflate a strict adherence to an idea, like they do to duty and such, with religion. (Albeit i suppose there is a point to be made there)
Dude... this is such a good video. I adore the amount of research and writing effort that was put in to this just deserves all the applause in the world.
I learned the burning catholic History / catholic school stuff so it is funny when I hear in university “write a paper using mainstream Christianity”… and my brain obv thinking cool , Catholics are number one in the world baaaaby But apparently we are somewhat cuckoo. Baptised before I could talk? check.
The indescribable cloud of negative emotions that just rewarded a murderer by turning him into a gibbering squid-beast? Not sure I can get behind that. Sigmar, who honoured his father, who stood on the field when the orcs came swarming, who raised the human people into a lasting civilisation, with his glorious beard and very shiny hammer? Now that’s a deity figure I can get behind! I personally really like the contrast between the settings. Fantasy/AoS has more personal gods, who want to and do get involved in things. It fits the smaller scale and focus on heroic tales (with a heavy dose of Grimdark of course). The Eldritch horrors that are the 40K gods suit the vaster, more unknowable and much darker universe.
Gav Thorpe spoke at length about this in reference to the Eldar Gods. I imagine Ian already knows all this but i mention it in case its of interest to anyone else 🙂
You could make an argument (I don't know enough about the topic to say how well) that the Emperor is the setting's Martin Luther. The Lutheran church is, in broad strokes, the refutation of Catholicism he envisaged, but... it's still become the global powerhouse he was criticising at the time.
I'd say he had it coming. Being forced to be a living corpse for 10,000 years seems like a small punishment for a galaxy-wide genocide and conquest campaign.
"If complete and utter chaos was lightning, then he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards!"
Sorta, yeah. I suspect however that quantum physics will tend to still feel like “magic” to an extent just because of how severely it breaks intuition, and it still feels like that even when you know how it works! I will be very curious to see how this works out over the course of my life. Maybe I’m wrong and people stop feeling this way! I’d like either outcome, tbh
As a pagan student of theology, I think the real world question of "What is a god?" is a fascinating question, and there are a few answers you didn't get into. For example, the concept of the whole of the universe as a god or The God is a common answer. Others say that concepts, Ideals, are gods(the Neoplatonic perspective). There is also the animist perspective were almost everything has a god. All of these could be relevant with how the Warp work. The Warp has some similarity to Poemander, Nous, or the Animus Mundi. Daemons is a Greek concept that shows up often in Neoplatonism. The way machine spirits and some types of daemons operate is similar to animist spirits. There is a lot of different answers to choose from!
Neoplatonism doesn't necessarily posit that the forms are "gods" the way the pagan gods were perceived. The pagan gods were very much part of the taxonomy of nature; resplendent and powerful, but still ontologically dependent upon something else for their existence. We see their equivalent in things like the angels and demons or spirits of various monotheistic religions. That being said, even among pagan religions, there was some understanding of "classic theology," which was further developed by Christians and Muslims (and our East the Hindus and Buddhists drew a lot of similar conclusions). There's "the gods," or whatever you want to call powerful spirits, and then there is "God," or "the Form of the Good," or "Brahman," which is the ontologically necessary Source of Being from which existence itself is derived. Modern theologians like to call this panentheism, but it boils down to "the Source of existence, of being, of mind, etc, is continually upholding, surrounding, and indwelling the universe, though it is *not* the universe itself." Obviously the writers of the Black Library haven't wasted their time or money on a philosophy degree, BUT that's a non-trivial response to debate about "gods." You could affirm that Khorne is a god, but only in the sense that he's super powerful, not that he is in any way self sufficient or necessary (he's very clearly not). "God" in this context just means "a particularly powerful being," not necessarily something that even implies any religious obligation. Sure, Khorne's a god, and the President is a politician, and that guy over there is a bodybuilder, and that lady is a scientist, etc, etc. It's just a category, without any real philosophical significance. Lorgar is still a moron for assuming that something being a god automatically means you need to worship or listen to what it has to say.
lol, pretty sure he covered that in “Humans have invented thousands of religions” my friend. No need to rehash transcendentalism in a video like this concerning a setting with myriad beliefs of its own.
great video as always, I sincerely hope that some of the sort of people who might make the comments you shared in the beginning of the video take the time to watch and grapple with this content. if you only get the edges of these nuances/subtleties into one person's mind you've done a kindness to the universe.
To be fair to AdMec, machine spirits DO actually appear to be a legitimate thing in setting, though oddly the biggest support for this is in Necron related material. Imotekh comments on and interacts with them in the 5E Codex, Twice-Dead King has a bunch of stuff that seems to support it, and and Titanicus seems to have a fair bit, too.
It also seems they could be a collection of different things all conflated together; minor warp entities created from belief, expert systems, special pleading applied to AIs, anthropomorphization and pathetic fallacy applied to mundane machines.
There is the hinted at possibility that machine spirits are actually just AI that the mechanicus don't realise are AI, which is so brilliantly ironic considering their stance on ai!
@@mojotheaverage The Rogue Trader video game also touches on this, as your character interacts with what seems to be a machine spirit. I won't spoil how that develops, but it's a pretty fun twist. And even before that happens, your Inquisition-psyker companion is worried about the possibility that it might be an AI due to the extent of its abilities.
Don't forget that real-world machines do have personalities based on accumulated component flaws and wear patterns which become more pronounced over time, especially when you start leaning into them by favouring them for particular applications. This occurs at all levels of complexity (audio production geeks chase the specific flaws of particular recording consoles ALL THE TIME), but becomes more pronounced as complexity increases (listen to anyone who's served in a Navy discuss serving on multiple vessels). AdMech deal with some *extremely complex* and *heavily worn* machines, after all...
I've heard a lot of people think it's just AI, but that is ignoring that Canon comic with the dead black Templar crying out that his "Lord" had abandoned him talking about all the epic battles he'd been a part of and then a group of people come by and cart off the black Templar as the camera zooms in onto his bolt pistol now screaming intensely "Lord, where are you going? Lord come back please" The twist being it was the machine Spirit of his bolt pistol that was giving the monologue
Yes! More Arbitor Ian does 40K theology please. Loved the approach you take here. By the definition of the monotheistic religions and western philosophy, none of the 40k entities are "God", lacking the combination of omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence. But are they closer to what the pre-monotheistic world thought of as "gods"....maybe? Fickle, powerful beings with an interest in mortal affairs, but also massive flaws. Such a rich line of thought to explore in the mad universe of Warhammer!
Heresy!! But seriously, great vid. No disrespect to anyone who taks lore a wee bit too seriously but I love the way you manage to act as a steam valve for the Warhammer lore community Ian. Keep up the good work for the greater good.
Been following your channel for ages and I have to say this is the most impressive deep dive yet. Really covered the subject to a level I hadn't even thought of. Excellent work
I agree with ian here. the chaos gods are often depicted as characters in alot of media, but thats honestly just because its a satire of a satire. And thats coming from the guy that voiced nurgle for TTS
I love these videos, you really are leagues above other 40k creators in understanding the inherent meta commentary of the setting but still faithfully interpreting and breaking it down
I'd argue that the genetic and psychic manipulation of the Genestealer cults initiated by an otherworldly monster also falls under Eldritch Horror. At the very least it has the same tropes as the cults of Eldritch Horrors in Lovecraft.
the Genestealer Cults strike me as VERY similar to the Esoteric Order of Dagon in HPL's "The Shadow over Innsmouth", to the point I would be surprised if that HPL story was NOT an influence
Broadly speaking many Warhammer gods seem to be gods in the same way as gods in traditional Buddhism (deva). They exist, they are powerful, they know more than we do, and they exist in realms separate from our own, but they didn't create the universe, and they are mortal. Their lives may be measured in billions of years, but they can die. Also, like Warhammer as a setting, philosophical Buddhism is broadly skeptical that these gods are worthy of exclusive or focused worship, although some may be respected as individuals for their knowledge. I doubt that was a specific influence on many GW writers, although it was definitely an influence on some of Warhammer's own influences, like Glorantha.
That is an excellent observation! Might be relevant that there has been a significant influence of Buddhist and Hindu Tantra on modern British occultism - both Aleister Crowley and Kenneth Grant had a working knowledge of the topic. Likewise the controversial Tibetan Buddhist leader Chögyam Trungpa lived in the UK during the 1960's, and many of his ideas seem very similar to those Peter Carroll developed in the 1970's/1980's.
There are gods in the warhammer verse, and 40k is missing the most important god of them all, Boingob the Godbeast of Squigs! GW should add Boingob to 40k to give Squigs more interesting lore again and debut Plastic Squigoths and an overpowered squig character who will be the 40k avatar to Boingob. May all suns be devoured in the name of Boingob!
Lol, Prince Philip, the god of moderate racism and shooting endangered birds Edit: at least no-one worships Prince Andrew, that is how Slaanesh starts . . .
Amazing as always, Ian! I could listen to you talk through this forever. For me, the key reference in 40k's cosmology is Plato and his Realm of Ideals, tipped by the deployment of "Allegory of The Cave" by Magnus at the Council of Nikea as well as some (perhaps coincidental) similarities between Lorgar at the burning of Monarchia and "Apology", where Socrates is on trial for corrupting the youth against the state religion. There's obviously some connective tissue between platonic ideals and warp entities like Khorne being a quasi-sentient cloud of anger, but I think there's a lot of meat in the smaller details of how the warp and materium are described as functioning. For Plato, *perception* of reality is a very high priority relative to other definitions of godhood and he notably calls out acts of creation as belonging to a parallel sort of entity, The Demi-urge. Plato didn't demand the same things from his gods as the religions that followed him did. There are important gaps in our knowledge of the big four, but when you consider how the Warp and Plato's Ideals are both described as existing outside of time or physicality, I think it makes a sense to view the Emperor as an ascendant demi-urge that never got to fully assemble his plan and The Dark King being an attempt to disrupt him by siphoning him into another category of being. We know that things can be born in the warp and then have always existed; that may well apply to creators as much as it does to the primordial annihilator. That incredible "It's just a room" soliloquy that Malcador delivers when they plug him into the throne does a lot to sell the idea that perception is the rawest form of power that exists in 40k and I would not be at all surprised if there was a vicious "essential qualities of a chair" joke lurking behind that being the emperor's final resting place.
With this video Ian ascends to the state of Kwisatz Haderach - a being capable of bridging the divide between the deep-lore onslaught of Luetin09 and the nimble, contemporary meta-commentary of Snipe'n'Wib.
Nastase talks about the power of faith as a force that has real effects in the universe, just as the waaargh power of the orks does, (red ones go faster). "You brought us here to ask if the Emperor is a god, for that is where the conversation is going, but the questions you should be asking yourself are, 'Am I a god'? and 'If I am a god, am I free'?"
This is great video. Very educational and has helped understand many of the factions more and the lens they see the universe through. Keep up the good work.
Commentary so good it made me remember why I first fell in love with the setting (it was the Catholic satire that came to at a time when i was a young disillusioned confirmation candidate). I had forgotten that. Powerfully good stuff, Ian.
Another top-notch video from the Arbitor - though again, I think the discussion would have benefited from the location of 40K within the Gothic tradition, which invariably plays with the notion of a dislocation from the numinous. To my mind that context is crucial to explaining the appeal of the setting.
The Emperor is not a god, he's just a very naughty boy... Edit: Oh, I would also argue that the Gene Stealer Cults are also Eldritch in nature. Similar to Unitology in Dead Space.
The amount of blank energy this video- ehrm, digital visual cognitoweapon produces is so much, that makes me believe this is the true way the Emperor wanted to fight warp "gods".
I’d say that the worship of the emperor also falls under the cargo cult category due to it carrying forward the emperor’s beliefs/teachings to (somewhat) protect themselves from other beings, either warp based or not.
I, for one, am absolutely thrilled for when GW decides to release the "Endorneth Bearkin" as a new Xenos range in 11th edition, along with their god, "the Golden One," as a centerpiece model.
Thanks Ian - only 10 mins and loving this one (as Anglican minister who’s been playing 40K for around three decades). Doing some academic writing currently on how 40K uses terms and concepts from Christian theology and Church history so this one was right on topic.
Literally the best video you have done, and that’s saying quite a lot! Super impressed. And, it started as I left my house and finished playing exactly as I pulled up at work. Surely only a god could have aligned that coincidence….
This might be the best video about Warhammer 40k ever. Gives earnest reasons to why people like this universe and why it’s worth talking about because it says A LOT about the real world. Pitch black satire will always go over some peoples heads and that’s always going to be a part of the point
I think the ones with the best case in the classical definition is the eldar. While not creators in the eldar myths, they are the progenitors of the eldar
Another aspect of deities that both American Gods and Warhammer seem to follow is that aside from belief, gods also need a blood sacrifice. In American Gods, because they lack most of their potential power, they end up mostly resorting to trickery to get the 'sacrifices' they need, and this makes me think of how chaos (initially) mostly interacts with the materium through cult activity.
Also lifted from Dune and copied 1:1 into the Sisters of Battle is the concept of the Missionaria Protectiva. It is the deliberate seeding of legends, mythy and superstitions into local religions. You covered that with the "Lisan Al-Gaib part".
You’re the best at this, Ian! These 2 videos, especially this one, made me think about Erikson’s Malazan series, very much a “belief creates gods” system like the Gaiman and Pratchett examples ( prob big influences on Erikson and Esslemont?)
I don’t understand why this channel doesn’t have a million subs, this is some of the smartest commentary on wh40k on this platform and by far the most intellectually curious and engaging
If Gork isn't real, then explain Mork.
Touche
One is brutal but cunning and the other is cunning but brutal. And vice-versa. Or not.
Check mate, atheists!
Though your primitive brain cortices are incapable of comprehending the complexity of the entities of whom you speak, I, a phaeron of the Necrontyr, do not have an argument against this logical assertion.
Chek Mate Umies
"Ray, when someone asks if you're a God, youvsay YES!"
Aim for the flat top!
Can you please help me place the reference
@@TimJohniLL Ghostbusters!
@@TimJohniLL Ghostbusters, first movie.
You are either left handed or hit space bar with your left hand.
The only person in the 'lore' space who is actually properly thinking about what it all means, not just summarising codex lore for people who don't read
And doing it in less than 120 minutes to boot.
I will say Snipe and Wib count too
I wish I had read the books before seeing all these poorly made videos with massive spoilers. I introduced a friend to the book series and told him not to google anything, he's reading the Horus heresy series and it is blowing his little mind.
@@jiblyjably Seconded.. only started properly reading the Horus Heresy AFTER I'd seen many videos detailing many spoilers in an offhand way. But then again, I've spoiled things for myself simply by looking them up on a wiki. 'Caliban, huh... Completely destroyed, you say? I guess I haven't gotten to that yet..."
Very true.
I'm predicting this comment section will be a reasoned even and a calm place to discuss things
@SordidusFellatio consider the kinds of people that put him in that tier I have a feeling Ian isn't going to be crying himself to sleep over it X3
@@Awoken_Remmuzyeah, especially when his own comment elsewhere didn't even engage with the content of the video, was just being a reactionary dipshit about off topic nonsense
@@Awoken_Remmuz The sordid bl0wj0b is shadowblocked, I guess this is about the reddit/4Chan list of wokists?
hehe,
started watching with 0 comments, came to over 90 when done.
I won't be scrolling down past this one, may it ever be on top.
@@Awoken_Remmuz but Warhammer nerds are his core audience?
I love videos that take an academic approach to deconstructing fantastical settings. Too many other Warhammer channels get bogged down with minutiae and end up missing the forest for the trees, but you manage to keep your argument comprehensive but still focused and entertaining. Great job, as always!
What did Agatha Christie know? Clearly you never read ‘The Mystery of aaarrrgh my eyes, my eyes, they scream!’
Emperor: THERE IS NO GOD, THAT'S WHY I STEPPED IN!
He specifically stepped in to end the concept of gods and religion.
@Chaselazuli whoosh?
@@WozWozEre no?
There was nothing in the op that implied it was a joke or sarcastic?
Only the true Messiah denies his divinity!
What?! Well, what sort of chance does that give me?! All right, I am the Messiah!
He is! He is the Messiah!
@Chaselazuli If you're familiar with 40K lore and Big E in particular you'd have noted the sarcastic humour in OP's post immediately.
The Emperor consistently claimed to not be a God, while basically going about doing everything possible to convince people of the opposite.
If you can't answer the question, "Is there a God", in a video about toy-soldiers; where can you?!
Well it’s an unscientific concept without any reasonable method of falsification. For this reason no one who understands the scientific method ever actually tries to prove or disprove the existence of god. It’s a perfectly pointless exercise.
@@guyfawkes8873 sigh There would be one of these people around. There may not be empirical evidence that'll 100% put it beyond any doubt either way but science isn't the only form of knowledge and I don't see why anything would HAVE TO get to 100% certainty, 51% will do.
It's not true either to say anyone who udnerstands the scientific method doesn't bother. Plenty of people who do try to prove and disprove God.
@@guyfawkes8873 Isn't the whole point of the warp and belief manifesting into actual things show you that the 40k universe doesn't operate under just a scientific method. Time doesn't work but does, gravity doesn't work but does, It is and isn't. I mean, people literally have souls in this universe. In the 40k universe projecting your sacred cow of scientific method makes no sense.
@@guyfawkes8873 the fact that it's logically incoherent is sufficient to disprove it
@@EuropeanQoheleth sure, like math and logic, but none of these valid forms of knowledge can validate such an inherently irrational concept
I'd count the emperor as a self-Lisan al Gaib. The Emperor is not a God who chose to appear to everyone as a 10ft Gold clad super human who performs miracles
His height isn’t fixed. It changes in size a multitude of times. Essentially, he is as tall as he wants to be. That being said, he is listed as being 14ft.
I always wonder, did anyone take video of the guy? You'd think he would just look one height in pictures.
@@inthefade maybe doesn't show up in pictures like a vampire?
@@ethanworks9917and thats how you know he's imperialist hes described in feet
It's really telling that sometimes we crave consistency to lore and concepts within a made-up world when, at the same time, we can barely agree on those same items irl.
This is the most pedestrian philosophy 101 observation i've ever read...
@@DD-zh4by Mercy upon this humble worm! Please, enlighten us, oh great one! Praise be thine wisdom!
@@alejandrorp5160 Bro, you're not funny. Please. the cringe is too much.
Also, you left your fedora on the ground while parading around like a total fool.
@@DD-zh4bynot wrong though is it .
One of the reasons people can engage with fictional lore as deeply (and pedantically) as they do is because we want a *known* world. A known world is safe, a known world is able to be operated efficiently, a known world fits better with how lazy our brains are, etc.
The real world is, to a variable extent for each individual, eventually unknowable. There are some things you *must just accept as it*, but in fiction... truth is attainable.
Not in Warhammer, though. That's the point :)
Dude you have the best theme song on youtube and your warhammer content is fucken sick, thanks for all the good shit my brother
Agatha Christe is Slannesh confirmed.
*A Chaos spawn stumbles into the room.
"GLARBLEGAOPGUHJUHHHHH"
"Ahh Miss Blaaarple! Would you like tea?"
No, Agtatha Christie is, in fact, all of the Chaos gods who, in fact, don't actually exist because their real purpose is to distract the readers so that they won't realize who the killer is before the book ends. The standards for innovation in the detective fiction genre have just become ridiculous enough that it was a necessary ploy; a locked room and an unreliable narrator just don't cut it anymore, so what's an author to do?
@@Malky24 "oighkaohsagdgh[afqhof[h[hah[ahahahaha" Ms Blaaarple replied
"Indeed I do find Mr Smythe a bit suspicious myself, now where is Smithers with the tea"
An interesting thing that happens when horus meets russ for the first time horus asks russ what he thinks about some of the people on fenris calling russ a god and about the emperor's statements that there are no gods. Russ doesn't say what he believes explicitly but hides it inside his answer which IIRC is something along the lines of "when a golden giant comes from the sky to tell you there are no gods it is not hard to understand the way of things." Which I take to mean that Russ doesn't care about what the term god means, doesn't care what the people of fenris take it to mean, and isn't worried about how that aligns with what the emperor says the term means. If the people of fenris see the space wolves as the dead battling in heaven against the foes of the allfather how is that meaningfully different than the truth except in the words that are being used?
And it is very funny to me that he basically does what logar does, which is to see a golden man come from the sky and decide that's the god he's been worshiping this whole time, but instead of making a huge deal out of it and getting caught up in a search for truth the way logar does he just kinda shrugs about it and goes back to business as usual.
“Oh wow, it’s really the messiah! Anyway….”
🤣
My head cannon now includes Agatha Christie's mysterious 1926 disappearance being her time-travelling to the 41st Millennium.
I'm at a theology conference right now. Really tired after a day of talks, I come back to my airbnb for a nap. Oh, my favourite 40k youtuber has made a new vid. What? No! It's theology 😱😭
The Emperor is basically a fancy Dave Lister and humanity is his cat people.
Wait... is Guilliman wearing a golden donut? I THOUGHT IT WAS A WREATH! ;)
A red dwarf reference!
"Terrible Netflix series" Do you realise how badly, that statement done not narrow it down, Ian?
Oh you and I both know what he is talking about, the list of bad Netflix Sci-fi is surprising small compared to the whole list of bad originals.
The idea that belief is what "powers" gods is actually pretty old, John Keats poem Hyperion is about the concept and he wrote that in the 1600s.
Couldn't agree more that Pratchett and Gaiman brought it to a fine art though.
This is your best video, imo. Well put and informed. I love your stuff because you display a genuine understanding of the themes of 40k and don't get bogged down with hashing out "absolute truths" in something that, by design, is muddy and unclear.
Ice heard it asserted that the very idea of Slann was just based on a pun- Chariots of the Frogs.
Love that to even set this up you have to do a cartography of all of 40K's influences
I love how consequently Ian uses the term "Space Frogs".
I think the Leagues had the best shot at being serious atheists- the 9th edition codex points out that they don’t have a name for the Great Rift, to cut down on superstition. They instead have a name for each of the observed warp storms.
And yet, even they have created a religion with rituals and taboos. They’d balk at the idea if you pointed it out to them, but the fervor that they protect their Ancestors exposes the truth of their situation. The Votann are not Gods, but for all purposes they are treated as such.
Like how most marines say they believe in the imperial truth and aren't worshipping gods yet are some of the most ritualistic and dogmatic people
@@AriSolMorningstarwhich has a purpose with how the warp works though. If you firmly (and collectively) believe some actions will keep the warp at bay, they it will to some degree, because Chaos works on the basis of belief.
@@AriSolMorningstarBecause they are soldiers? Tools even.
Do not conflate a strict adherence to an idea, like they do to duty and such, with religion. (Albeit i suppose there is a point to be made there)
I mean the tau are actual atheists
@@murphy7801 they hold ethereals in a quasi-divine status, and the greater good might as well be a religion even though it doesnt have a god proper
Dude... this is such a good video. I adore the amount of research and writing effort that was put in to this just deserves all the applause in the world.
Gods in warhammer 40k: 😵💫
Gods in fantasy: a guy with a beard and a hammer
I learned the burning catholic History / catholic school stuff so it is funny when I hear in university “write a paper using mainstream Christianity”… and my brain obv thinking cool , Catholics are number one in the world baaaaby
But apparently we are somewhat cuckoo. Baptised before I could talk? check.
Finally, the Warhammer 40k is real (although in another universe)
A very LARGE man with a beard and a hammer.
@@ProfessorOtakuD2 It's more like Invader Zim's Tallest, really...
The indescribable cloud of negative emotions that just rewarded a murderer by turning him into a gibbering squid-beast? Not sure I can get behind that.
Sigmar, who honoured his father, who stood on the field when the orcs came swarming, who raised the human people into a lasting civilisation, with his glorious beard and very shiny hammer? Now that’s a deity figure I can get behind!
I personally really like the contrast between the settings. Fantasy/AoS has more personal gods, who want to and do get involved in things. It fits the smaller scale and focus on heroic tales (with a heavy dose of Grimdark of course). The Eldritch horrors that are the 40K gods suit the vaster, more unknowable and much darker universe.
Gav Thorpe spoke at length about this in reference to the Eldar Gods. I imagine Ian already knows all this but i mention it in case its of interest to anyone else 🙂
Just to clarify for anyone who wants to watch the interview its here on CZcams, uploaded by the channel 'Craftworld Eldar'
Poor God Emperor. The tragic irony of his whole situation is so extreme.
You could make an argument (I don't know enough about the topic to say how well) that the Emperor is the setting's Martin Luther. The Lutheran church is, in broad strokes, the refutation of Catholicism he envisaged, but... it's still become the global powerhouse he was criticising at the time.
@@alastaircollins1145 I don't think so because Luther wasn't refuting God's existance just the Catholic Church's dogma.
I'd say he had it coming. Being forced to be a living corpse for 10,000 years seems like a small punishment for a galaxy-wide genocide and conquest campaign.
@@VanDiemensLander The Emperor's not denying the existence of the chaos powers, either, just trying to safeguard humanity from them
@@alastaircollins1145 That's what people say, mm-mm
And the fakers gonna fake, fake, fake, fake, fake
Technically you're right, but do you really wanna be the one to tell them that?
The Ordo Hereticus has been alerted. The Templin institute wil fall.
"If complete and utter chaos was lightning, then he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards!"
@@ArbitorIan Based.
Based, but not earthed.
Shocking, but not unwarranted
any sufficiently sexy being from the outer darkness is indistinguishable from a god, i don't make the rules
I introduced Clarke's Inverse Law one time and it ruined magic for a couple of people, "Any sufficiently studied magic becomes a new science."
That's basically the premise of Larry Correia's Grimnoir Chronicles series
Sorta, yeah. I suspect however that quantum physics will tend to still feel like “magic” to an extent just because of how severely it breaks intuition, and it still feels like that even when you know how it works!
I will be very curious to see how this works out over the course of my life. Maybe I’m wrong and people stop feeling this way! I’d like either outcome, tbh
Alchemists & Magitech Engineers (& Hard Magic Worldbuilders) : “What, you thought this doctorate was just for show? 🧐 “
I’m reminded of this one franchise (whose name escapes me) who had a “Ministry of Arcane Sciences” on their War Council.
What is god?
Baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me, no more... ;)
That's... so very Christian.
As a pagan student of theology, I think the real world question of "What is a god?" is a fascinating question, and there are a few answers you didn't get into.
For example, the concept of the whole of the universe as a god or The God is a common answer. Others say that concepts, Ideals, are gods(the Neoplatonic perspective). There is also the animist perspective were almost everything has a god. All of these could be relevant with how the Warp work. The Warp has some similarity to Poemander, Nous, or the Animus Mundi. Daemons is a Greek concept that shows up often in Neoplatonism. The way machine spirits and some types of daemons operate is similar to animist spirits. There is a lot of different answers to choose from!
Neoplatonism doesn't necessarily posit that the forms are "gods" the way the pagan gods were perceived. The pagan gods were very much part of the taxonomy of nature; resplendent and powerful, but still ontologically dependent upon something else for their existence. We see their equivalent in things like the angels and demons or spirits of various monotheistic religions.
That being said, even among pagan religions, there was some understanding of "classic theology," which was further developed by Christians and Muslims (and our East the Hindus and Buddhists drew a lot of similar conclusions). There's "the gods," or whatever you want to call powerful spirits, and then there is "God," or "the Form of the Good," or "Brahman," which is the ontologically necessary Source of Being from which existence itself is derived. Modern theologians like to call this panentheism, but it boils down to "the Source of existence, of being, of mind, etc, is continually upholding, surrounding, and indwelling the universe, though it is *not* the universe itself."
Obviously the writers of the Black Library haven't wasted their time or money on a philosophy degree, BUT that's a non-trivial response to debate about "gods." You could affirm that Khorne is a god, but only in the sense that he's super powerful, not that he is in any way self sufficient or necessary (he's very clearly not). "God" in this context just means "a particularly powerful being," not necessarily something that even implies any religious obligation. Sure, Khorne's a god, and the President is a politician, and that guy over there is a bodybuilder, and that lady is a scientist, etc, etc. It's just a category, without any real philosophical significance. Lorgar is still a moron for assuming that something being a god automatically means you need to worship or listen to what it has to say.
lol, pretty sure he covered that in “Humans have invented thousands of religions” my friend. No need to rehash transcendentalism in a video like this concerning a setting with myriad beliefs of its own.
@@BeggarsNight yeah but it's fun
Golden showers. The true determining factor of any true, self respecting, god
Ah, bloody brilliant Ian. You KNOW this thumbnail will get a lot of interaction!
great video as always, I sincerely hope that some of the sort of people who might make the comments you shared in the beginning of the video take the time to watch and grapple with this content. if you only get the edges of these nuances/subtleties into one person's mind you've done a kindness to the universe.
To be fair to AdMec, machine spirits DO actually appear to be a legitimate thing in setting, though oddly the biggest support for this is in Necron related material. Imotekh comments on and interacts with them in the 5E Codex, Twice-Dead King has a bunch of stuff that seems to support it, and and Titanicus seems to have a fair bit, too.
It also seems they could be a collection of different things all conflated together; minor warp entities created from belief, expert systems, special pleading applied to AIs, anthropomorphization and pathetic fallacy applied to mundane machines.
There is the hinted at possibility that machine spirits are actually just AI that the mechanicus don't realise are AI, which is so brilliantly ironic considering their stance on ai!
@@mojotheaverage The Rogue Trader video game also touches on this, as your character interacts with what seems to be a machine spirit. I won't spoil how that develops, but it's a pretty fun twist. And even before that happens, your Inquisition-psyker companion is worried about the possibility that it might be an AI due to the extent of its abilities.
Don't forget that real-world machines do have personalities based on accumulated component flaws and wear patterns which become more pronounced over time, especially when you start leaning into them by favouring them for particular applications. This occurs at all levels of complexity (audio production geeks chase the specific flaws of particular recording consoles ALL THE TIME), but becomes more pronounced as complexity increases (listen to anyone who's served in a Navy discuss serving on multiple vessels).
AdMech deal with some *extremely complex* and *heavily worn* machines, after all...
I've heard a lot of people think it's just AI, but that is ignoring that Canon comic with the dead black Templar crying out that his "Lord" had abandoned him talking about all the epic battles he'd been a part of and then a group of people come by and cart off the black Templar as the camera zooms in onto his bolt pistol now screaming intensely "Lord, where are you going? Lord come back please" The twist being it was the machine Spirit of his bolt pistol that was giving the monologue
Oh lord, Erebus is going to HATE this one.
Meanwhile, Fabius Bile
Yes! More Arbitor Ian does 40K theology please.
Loved the approach you take here. By the definition of the monotheistic religions and western philosophy, none of the 40k entities are "God", lacking the combination of omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence. But are they closer to what the pre-monotheistic world thought of as "gods"....maybe? Fickle, powerful beings with an interest in mortal affairs, but also massive flaws. Such a rich line of thought to explore in the mad universe of Warhammer!
Heresy!!
But seriously, great vid. No disrespect to anyone who taks lore a wee bit too seriously but I love the way you manage to act as a steam valve for the Warhammer lore community Ian.
Keep up the good work for the greater good.
Been following your channel for ages and I have to say this is the most impressive deep dive yet. Really covered the subject to a level I hadn't even thought of. Excellent work
I agree with ian here. the chaos gods are often depicted as characters in alot of media, but thats honestly just because its a satire of a satire. And thats coming from the guy that voiced nurgle for TTS
That's so sick!!
I never expected Pratchett in Warhammer video
I remember reading that at some point Pratchett was very close to getting a job writing for Games Workshop back in the early days of WHFB
Fabius Bile:
I love these videos, you really are leagues above other 40k creators in understanding the inherent meta commentary of the setting but still faithfully interpreting and breaking it down
I'd argue that the genetic and psychic manipulation of the Genestealer cults initiated by an otherworldly monster also falls under Eldritch Horror. At the very least it has the same tropes as the cults of Eldritch Horrors in Lovecraft.
the Genestealer Cults strike me as VERY similar to the Esoteric Order of Dagon in HPL's "The Shadow over Innsmouth", to the point I would be surprised if that HPL story was NOT an influence
Can’t believe you didn’t touch on the Fabius Bile trilogy, this question is the fundamental theme of the whole series.
No gods in 40k, but a sh*t load of masters.
Broadly speaking many Warhammer gods seem to be gods in the same way as gods in traditional Buddhism (deva). They exist, they are powerful, they know more than we do, and they exist in realms separate from our own, but they didn't create the universe, and they are mortal. Their lives may be measured in billions of years, but they can die. Also, like Warhammer as a setting, philosophical Buddhism is broadly skeptical that these gods are worthy of exclusive or focused worship, although some may be respected as individuals for their knowledge.
I doubt that was a specific influence on many GW writers, although it was definitely an influence on some of Warhammer's own influences, like Glorantha.
That is an excellent observation! Might be relevant that there has been a significant influence of Buddhist and Hindu Tantra on modern British occultism - both Aleister Crowley and Kenneth Grant had a working knowledge of the topic. Likewise the controversial Tibetan Buddhist leader Chögyam Trungpa lived in the UK during the 1960's, and many of his ideas seem very similar to those Peter Carroll developed in the 1970's/1980's.
This was superb. A God tier lore video.
Bravo
There are gods in the warhammer verse, and 40k is missing the most important god of them all, Boingob the Godbeast of Squigs! GW should add Boingob to 40k to give Squigs more interesting lore again and debut Plastic Squigoths and an overpowered squig character who will be the 40k avatar to Boingob. May all suns be devoured in the name of Boingob!
If everything that is/was worshiped as a god, is a god, then Prince Philip was a god. True story.
Edit: typo
Who worshipped Prince Phillip as a God? But if they did, then sure why not? What a God is is essentially an entirely subjective term.
There's a cargo cult that worship Prince Phillip. They still exist
Lol, Prince Philip, the god of moderate racism and shooting endangered birds
Edit: at least no-one worships Prince Andrew, that is how Slaanesh starts . . .
I mean, given the functional power he wielded, even without being King... who's to say he didn't qualify?
Amazing as always, Ian! I could listen to you talk through this forever.
For me, the key reference in 40k's cosmology is Plato and his Realm of Ideals, tipped by the deployment of "Allegory of The Cave" by Magnus at the Council of Nikea as well as some (perhaps coincidental) similarities between Lorgar at the burning of Monarchia and "Apology", where Socrates is on trial for corrupting the youth against the state religion.
There's obviously some connective tissue between platonic ideals and warp entities like Khorne being a quasi-sentient cloud of anger, but I think there's a lot of meat in the smaller details of how the warp and materium are described as functioning.
For Plato, *perception* of reality is a very high priority relative to other definitions of godhood and he notably calls out acts of creation as belonging to a parallel sort of entity, The Demi-urge. Plato didn't demand the same things from his gods as the religions that followed him did. There are important gaps in our knowledge of the big four, but when you consider how the Warp and Plato's Ideals are both described as existing outside of time or physicality, I think it makes a sense to view the Emperor as an ascendant demi-urge that never got to fully assemble his plan and The Dark King being an attempt to disrupt him by siphoning him into another category of being. We know that things can be born in the warp and then have always existed; that may well apply to creators as much as it does to the primordial annihilator.
That incredible "It's just a room" soliloquy that Malcador delivers when they plug him into the throne does a lot to sell the idea that perception is the rawest form of power that exists in 40k and I would not be at all surprised if there was a vicious "essential qualities of a chair" joke lurking behind that being the emperor's final resting place.
Big topic to tackle within the lore 👍🏻
Nah, how hard could it be? Very simple. 🤦
With this video Ian ascends to the state of Kwisatz Haderach - a being capable of bridging the divide between the deep-lore onslaught of Luetin09 and the nimble, contemporary meta-commentary of Snipe'n'Wib.
Well, you know what they say: Heresay, there-a-say...everybody gets a say!
Nastase talks about the power of faith as a force that has real effects in the universe, just as the waaargh power of the orks does, (red ones go faster).
"You brought us here to ask if the Emperor is a god, for that is where the conversation is going, but the questions you should be asking yourself are, 'Am I a god'? and 'If I am a god, am I free'?"
This video was PHENOMENAL you never miss Ian. I will never stop recommending this channel to new converts of the 41st millenium!
I am really enjoying these one off concept explorations. Thanks for another fun video.
This is great video. Very educational and has helped understand many of the factions more and the lens they see the universe through. Keep up the good work.
Ian these vids are well written, researched, thought provoking, easily accessible and enjoyable to listen to. You have a real talent for this!
This is a very high quality and thoughtful Warhammer video. Your meta commentary has been on fire recently, keep it coming please!🔥
Blood for the Blood [REDACTED]!
Commentary so good it made me remember why I first fell in love with the setting (it was the Catholic satire that came to at a time when i was a young disillusioned confirmation candidate).
I had forgotten that.
Powerfully good stuff, Ian.
Is anyone else now hoping for a Discworld bookclub with Ian and Mira?
The symbol for the Old Ones is my favourite thing in this video
What a well structured, well researched and overall intelligent video. Thanks for that Ian!
Another top-notch video from the Arbitor - though again, I think the discussion would have benefited from the location of 40K within the Gothic tradition, which invariably plays with the notion of a dislocation from the numinous. To my mind that context is crucial to explaining the appeal of the setting.
The Emperor is not a god, he's just a very naughty boy...
Edit:
Oh, I would also argue that the Gene Stealer Cults are also Eldritch in nature. Similar to Unitology in Dead Space.
I've never played 40k or read any novels but I'm hooked your videos. This one is spectacular.
Emperor: Abolish superstition
Everyone: the Emperor protects!
The amount of blank energy this video- ehrm, digital visual cognitoweapon produces is so much, that makes me believe this is the true way the Emperor wanted to fight warp "gods".
I’d say that the worship of the emperor also falls under the cargo cult category due to it carrying forward the emperor’s beliefs/teachings to (somewhat) protect themselves from other beings, either warp based or not.
I, for one, am absolutely thrilled for when GW decides to release the "Endorneth Bearkin" as a new Xenos range in 11th edition, along with their god, "the Golden One," as a centerpiece model.
Amazing Video, great work of lore and research. I really enjoyed it!
Thanks Ian - only 10 mins and loving this one (as Anglican minister who’s been playing 40K for around three decades). Doing some academic writing currently on how 40K uses terms and concepts from Christian theology and Church history so this one was right on topic.
Thanks for sharing this video with us. Very comprehensive on the subject matter. A lot to consider. I thoroughly enjoyed it 😊😊
I never considered the mechanicus basically have the Trinity.
I think that parallel was intentional from the start, but ppl tend to forget that the Motive Force exists. 🥲
Literally the best video you have done, and that’s saying quite a lot! Super impressed. And, it started as I left my house and finished playing exactly as I pulled up at work. Surely only a god could have aligned that coincidence….
Ah, you’ve taken the Fabius pill
Fabeious Bile figured out the truth, so had the Emperor. Pretty sure most of the Primarchs have as well.
Gods aren’t real, but that never stopped us from worshipping the things claiming to be them
Or prevented us from worshipping the respective gods opposition. Hail Satan!
Ancient Rylenor became the God of Righteous Vengeance.
Great video as always, cheers!
This might be the best video about Warhammer 40k ever. Gives earnest reasons to why people like this universe and why it’s worth talking about because it says A LOT about the real world. Pitch black satire will always go over some peoples heads and that’s always going to be a part of the point
What a brilliant, nuanced take on a tricky topic. Nicely done!
Really enjoying this series and the deeper dives into the lore from outside of the setting.
Shout out for Buddy Christ making an appearance.
Arbiters?... Is Ian a god?
Tau'va could also fall under cargo cult.
"Let's call them theories for now" almost killed me. 🤣 That delivery deserves an award.
“What did Agatha Christie know?” t-shirt when?
So Fabius Bile was right all along?
Now if only he realizes he is Slaanesh’s puppet.
*Fabulous Bile
@@mojotheaverageFabulous Bill
Emp is NOT a God!!! he's just a VERY naughty psyker !!!!!!!
24:00 Actually in Lizardmen and Pyramids were everywhere, it just that Chaos wrecked most of the stuff.
Oh yees, my heresy sensors are tingling.
Heresensors - currently unused 40k word
I think the ones with the best case in the classical definition is the eldar. While not creators in the eldar myths, they are the progenitors of the eldar
This might be your best video yet. You don't see this sort of analysis.
Another aspect of deities that both American Gods and Warhammer seem to follow is that aside from belief, gods also need a blood sacrifice.
In American Gods, because they lack most of their potential power, they end up mostly resorting to trickery to get the 'sacrifices' they need, and this makes me think of how chaos (initially) mostly interacts with the materium through cult activity.
Also lifted from Dune and copied 1:1 into the Sisters of Battle is the concept of the Missionaria Protectiva. It is the deliberate seeding of legends, mythy and superstitions into local religions. You covered that with the "Lisan Al-Gaib part".
You’re the best at this, Ian! These 2 videos, especially this one, made me think about Erikson’s Malazan series, very much a “belief creates gods” system like the Gaiman and Pratchett examples ( prob big influences on Erikson and Esslemont?)
I don’t understand why this channel doesn’t have a million subs, this is some of the smartest commentary on wh40k on this platform and by far the most intellectually curious and engaging