“VERY Clever Woman” | Ex-Post Office Boss “Doesn’t Recall” Being Told About Fault
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- čas přidán 24. 04. 2024
- A former top Post Office executive has claimed she forgot about an email in 2010 saying that cash balances in subpostmasters’ branch accounts could be remotely accessed.
Angela van den Bogerd had earlier told the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry in central London on Thursday that she never “knowingly” did anything wrong in the scandal.
However, Ms van den Bogerd, played by Coronation Street actress Katherine Kelly in the ITV drama Mr Bates vs The Post Office, was asked if she had “airbrushed” from her mind the fact that Horizon developer Fujitsu had remote access to accounts.
Journalist Nick Wallis joins TalkTV’s James Max to discuss thus further.
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This woman comes across as a total liar. She's completely unwilling to accept any and all responsibility.
They will make her a dame
The joke is these people want paying as being in control of a business, yet are not willing to be held responsible when found out, she pushed destroying innocent people all because she did not want to admit the system she put in had major problems.
@@jilllawton8556 they're all singing of the same hymn sheet.
@@geoffnichols3831All the innocent victims, and that's what they are, should get the lawyers in.
And it is a "lady of the cloth", Vile creature and the only thing it's any good at is stealing oxygen.
Like all people of high position within the Post Office, she has a degree in Amnesia and Lying.
She never went to Uni which is unbelievable given the job she held. Promoted beyond her capabilities!!
She is not clever, just a liar.
Stupid, but guided by lawyers.
She is a well practiced liar.
@@paulcundy7329 most probably the same lawyers who represented the lie for the imprisonment of the sub post masters.
Whatever her level of intelligence, it is clear the Jason Beer is ten times more clever. He had her completely cornered several times yesterday, and he knows that every time he does so, Wyn Williams picks up on it and draws the obvious conclusion - a serial liar who failed to do the right thing when it mattered and then covered it up, with the collusion of other senior employees. I’m looking forward to her getting quizzed by the core participants later today - they will tear her a new one.
@@srp01983 the crown prosecution needs to get involved now, let's see how far she will go with her lies..
Nick Wallis continues to play an important part in exposing these awful people. Well done Nick!
Always worth listening to, and yes, a catalyst for exposing this appalling abuse of power. He also looks at wider picture, eg federation of SPM’s who enabled the abuse by POL. I am very grateful for Nick’s calm logic combined with passion for justice, not widely held values these days sadly
Can we let Nick Wallis grill her today
Agreed pol tried to silence him during this mess
CRIMINAL … arrest her and quiz her in jail, and get back her inflated bonuses
And her pensions
Yes, enough of these committee "enquiries." No ordinary person gets to drag things out in Parliament. Ordinary people are arrested, charged and tried in court. None of the P.O senior management past and present are above the law!!
@@fractionaldebtisfraud2187 old ladies have been jailed for not paying the bbc licence fee FFS!!!
@@OutRAjious Wooosh!
You can tell there's no truth coming from her mouth, absolutely disgusting.
She seems to lack a conscience. I hope they prove the conspiracy theory and gaol beckons....Have they no idea of what they have done to people, their lives and families. Shame on those bosses at the PO.
She must know that we all know she is lying and also she lying on oath !!!
She has to get charged with perjury, right?
Don't be daft more likely a highland paid job awaits het.happens all the time
I live in the USA. What's the story on this woman & the Post Office ??? I haven't heard any Reporting on this over here. 🤔
@Be... just google “post office scandal summary”.
@@BeverlyMurphy-ii2wp I live in NZ and the series is called Mr Bates vs the Post Office. Seek and ye shall find. Oh that is Paula Vennells one of the worst in this very true and extremely sad saga. Shes and Anglican Minister. Watch and it wall all make sense.
@@debibuxton1335 Had the Archbishop of Canterbury had his way, the Rev. Paula would have been made Bishop of London a few years ago. Clearly, Justin saw in her a character akin to his own?
She has to be held accountable
Her, her cronies and her henchmen
Throw her in jail and lose the key she is evil a complete lier.
Evil indeed but will not be given jail.cant believe folks still believe in the rightiousness of british justice
Please, please, please continue to report on this issue, especially for those poor sub-postmasters.
If she’s been proven to lie under oath, she should be charged.
It would be almost impossible for her not to have known what was happening. She should be jailed for aiding and abetting malicious prosecutions. What an utter disgrace.
Jail time.
Kevin that won't happen.even if it's proven shes a liar she won't get jailed.the criminal justice system protect these people.
None of these people were doing any work at all. They didn’t read emails, didn’t talk to anyone, they never called meetings- they were just passive participants, they didn’t understand what people told them or what they read, that wasn’t their job, this wasn’t their responsibility. So what the hell were these people doing all day at work? The inquiry needs to nail them down on what their job actually was.
As for this woman in particular, she is like a zombie. She wants her money, she wants lots of it and that is the only thing that’s important to her. All of these people are taking the barristers and solicitors at this inquiry for fools.
Of course - they outsourced all the actual 'work' to law firms/ consultants, delegated responsibility then sat back. Nothing to see here.
WHA ON EARTH WERE THEY BEING PAID FOR?
They are all guilty as hell.
She's dreadful. As they all have been so far in the inquiry, highlighting the toxic culture at the Post Office.
Very EVIL woman! Those in charge must be jailed.
The whole case disgusts me; I followed Nick's coverage from the beginning; shockingly, these postmasters are still fighting for justice. I can't forget that poor man who committed suicide, Martin Griffiths. Utterly shameful what happened to these people.
What p’sses me off is that there’s a trend of speaking about ‘justice’ ⚖️ meaning ‘compensation’ (from the Govt). When we mean PRISON and crippling personal fines for those involved. Meanwhile huge financial compensation from Fujitsu to the SPMs.
I fear Royal Mail will sue Fujitsu. If they do/regardless, they owe comp to the victims. My gripe is the tax payer footing the bill. 😡
Yes she has blood on her hands
They know it was all wrong but did nothing, Fake apologies, still no empathy or shame…..They all look guilty…..All covering their own backs….Prison.
Yes, yes, but are you sure they knew it was wrong.... Regards
There are about 12,000 sub-post offices in the UK, around 4,000 had serious discrepancies running to many thousands or tens of thousands of pounds. Yet all these instances happened to people who were not only upstanding members of their communities but had been screened carefully by the PO before being given PO contracts. We are supposed to swallow that senior management at the PO found it credible that a third of all its agents, to quote Paula V, gave way to “temptation” & had their hands in the till. Not a single non-executive PO director ever questioned how so many PO agents suddenly became massively dishonest, when their “thefts“ were easily discoverable by audits. In Angela‘s case, by 2010 or earlier, she didn’t need to ask that question, because she knew the answer.
Of course every executive knew that there was an inordinately high number of sub postmasters being prosecuted, just as they all knew that the Horizon system was faulty. They would have meetings where the minutes were not recorded and they all spoke frankly. The decision would have been taken
" protect the brand and protect the very expensive computer system or pur jobs aren't risk"
Once you head down the road of lying there is no turning back when the stakes are so high!!!
* our jobs are at risk
Exactly what I said when I first heard about this. A sudden surge in postmaster fraud and only Alan Bates twigged? I don’t think so. The actual fraud is by the Post Office. Paula Vennell would do well to take responsibility when her skinny butt hits that chair and dob in the others involved in the scam. She’d have Angela in the next cell for company at least!
When you implement a new IT system, despite rigorous alpha and beta testing, you expect soem unforeseen flaws to surface. But 12,000 from 4,000 i.e. almost 30% would you not expect that to raise some eyebrows?
You are 100% right. The very first time this fiasco hit the press, my very first thought was no way. No way that all these subpostmasters had suddenly become dishonest. Anyone with sense could see that this was impossible, and investigators must’ve been bone headed not to see that they weren’t lying.
Angela is a survivor - she runs with the hares and hunts with the hounds. She never really had knowledge, nor did she actually do anything. Like her Germanic cousins in WW2 she would have run a prison camp efficiently for her bosses and would have been blind to any injustice for the inmates.
Good analogy 👏
Brilliant response Piper. Wasnt there..didnt know..someone who just looked like me.
It seems that in Post Office culture, 'befehl ist befehl' was the rule. Or at least, Bogerd is trying to insist that it was. Apparently, when she left the P.O., her salary was in excess of £400,000 p.a.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 .....wonder if she had final salary pension ......beggars belief .....
Like Manuel in Fawlty Tower: "I know nothing" !
This woman was promoted continuously in PO until she was in such a senior position that she was used to brief MPs, yet, it seems she was never responsible for anything, in any of these multiple roles
She claims to have had a very important job. That of passing on instructions for her superiors, without, of course, reading any of them.
I wonder if her main line of defence, that of 'some big boys and girls did it, then ran away,' will succeed?
Makes you wonder what she did all day. File her nails with ear plugs in ? Someone must have recorded the Managers unofficial meetings? Seems not.
Yep
I’m afraid the ‘boss classes’ have a very low opinion of the working population and they don’t genuinely care about the lives and rights of the minions. I’ve seen this in many of the organisations I’ve worked for, including the civil service. Because the boss classes are predominantly from the same socio economic groups and are by nature very ambitious and uncompromising, they have no empathy for or understanding of those who aren’t like them.Their arrogance and ruthlessness is clearly demonstrated throughout this appalling scandal.
Thus has it always been! A perfect example of the " boss classes " ( as you put it) in action is the first world war.....sending boys as young as 16 and even younger if they lied about their age to fight in the trenches of France and continuing this wickedness for 4 long years!
Cancel her pension
Good call mate!
Denialism, new word used to describe liars!
Yes the managers need to feel this injustice in their pockets...the postmasters often went bankrupt, lost their homes etc.
@@estherlutz3358 If I may extend it to the serving of jail time just like the post sub masters.
@@michaelc821
Yes please. Jail.
Arrogant thinks shes untouchable
Do your job police
She was truly truly sorry she was caught .
As far as I've seen so far, none of these culpable people are willing to remember anything they did in their senior positions from day to day. There is absolutely no recognition of their own actions in pursuing mercilessly, innocent victims in their cover up. How do they seriously expect anyone to believe their recollections, that they never followed any information up with further inquiries or looked into their email trail of it. Totally unbelievable, but if not that, then sheer incompetence and mismanagement of the highest level. They should all be held culpable.
If these creatures are symptomatic of the qualities and abilities of the senior 'management' of a major organisation like the Post Office, I wonder about other major Britith organisations, and the qualities of their 'great & good?'
Nick Wallis called a spade a spade. He cuts through this scandal and knows very well that Angela is lying through her teeth.
That young man’s letter should have been in the lawyers hand today!
"Passive apologies"! You have hit the nail on the head. Not apologising for what they actively DID to these people, in their cold, callous, bullying, cruelty: but what simply "happened" as a consequence of forces beyond their control. Unfortunately, there are ANGELA VAN DEN BOGERD's scattered throughout Government organisations and institutions, throughout the UK I used to encounter them in Nursing. Usually of low intellect (but with an ability to scheme; and use 'Management Speak', especially acronyms!): these were people who had 'time-served' their way up through the ranks; so that they had the "Now it's MY turn!" attitude.
Also glaring examples in police service.
@@cynthiastrawson3316 Thanks Cynthia: having been a male feminist for much of my life (I fought - wrongly - for the ordination of women: not realising that the entire hierarchical CLERGY are the problem in the Church) I have now come to the conclusion that there is a research doctorate waiting to be written on the 'type' of woman who ends up in Management: whether that be in the Post Office or Church.
She is an utter lier. If WE can see this, surely the authorities can also see it. THESE POST OFFICE BOSSES SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!!
She must be jailed for justice and all her assets taken from her.
Yes, people went to prison, died, livelihood lost, scorned, assets lost, savings lost, family breakup...liars cannot get away. Prison for everyone involved.
They need to be put on trial.
The real Point is, that these sort of people, are very highly paid, to take responsibility for whatever goes wrong.
Sitting in Court and pleading they didn't know is not acceptable.
The case Jayakanthan Sivasubramaniam and his wife is a prime example of what was being discussed above , Jayakanthan Sivasubramaniam committed suicide over a £100k shortfall , the post office hounded his wife for the "missing money" .
In order to pay for the shortfalls, the woman took out several bank loans, re-mortgaged their £350,000 home, sold their properties abroad and traded in £14,000 worth of jewellery.
Yet now after she looked for compensation from the "Horizon shortfall scheme" she is being told that it was her husband that was the sub postmaster , and that she is entitled to nothing , which beggars the question if the business was her husbands why was she hounded to pay back the shortfall
Absolutely disgusting behavior by the colluding scum at the top of the Post Office. They knew full well that Horizon had problems as far back as 2010 but they did not have the integrity to own up to the fact. They brought misery to countless numbers of loyal honest sub postmasters and mistresses and untold hardship and shame on their families. It is incredible that no one involved, either in the Post Office, Fujitsu, or the consultants and lawyers involved could summon up the courage to blow the whistle on what was happening. And the Government ministers, as owners and shareholders should also shoulder a considerable part of the blame. I am lost for words with how disgusted I am with them all.
In that case, the wife will need to claim more even compensation and push to have them put in Jail.
She is not sorry at all!
'Sorry for what happened!'
These Post Office bosses are all guilty of destroying hundreds of lives!
There should be a criminal court case asap for these dreadful people!
Alan Bates, Nick Wallace and Lord Abuthnot are wonderful for pursuing this shocking scandal for years!
She’s only sorry she’s been rumbled : no sincerity in her apology at all !! Would also add that everyone knows what Van Bogerd looks like now so she will undoubtedly be a social pariah for the rest of her days !! I feel so vindictive ( as no doubt we all do ) towards this evil woman !
This is not defence of the brand. It is self preservation pure and simple. Lying is accepted and not challenged. These must serve jail time ASAP.
Just like what Boris Johnson used and the present government with the opposition parties. Sick evil society which is going backwards. Then they call it democracy, a big lie.
It goes a lot deeper, where is the money, who benefited from the scam?
Judge Peter Fraser criticised Van De Bogherd her testimony and said she "did not give me frank evidence, and sought to obfuscate matters, and mislead me".
Beer KC, lead counsel to the inquiry, challenged Ms van den Bogerd's opening statement, as he accused her of not saying sorry for her own role in the scandal…
The actions and motives were to save money and for personal gain in the way of significant benefits & bonus pay outs!!! Not to protect the brand.., it was to protect shareholders and save the business from going bankrupt!!
Perjury is a crime
These Post Office executives have deliberately and collectively acquired amnesia in order to avoid prosecution for wholesale lying and for instituting malicious prosecutions. Let's hope they fail and that this particular female spends as much time in jail as any of the totally innocent postmasters did.
this is what JAILS were built for …
How could the PO have so many un-inquisitive/incompetent/negligent/forgetfull managers?
‘A Den of Criminals’ sounds more convincing from what I’m hearing!
Exactly. It’s an interesting organisation that has such a low bar for senior and highly paid executives. How can I get a job there…I could do with the cash but don’t want any responsibility! And a bonus for doing a rubbish job would be great too!
The loss of memory is equal to the depth of guilt.
She had all the information needed to know prosecutions were being made using flawed information and incompetent investigations/audits as early as early 2011. She made no attempt to initiate a full review of all historical prosecutions, review company accounts. In addition, she has not accepted the courts findings of her part in the scandal. Jail time is the only way she will realise here responsibility.
Coyne report caught them out in 2003 (day 59) and they covered that up. The PO chiefs knew it was defective before they signed up in 1999.
We are now just getting to the 'Meat & Potatoes' of this inquiry (getting juicy)
The Reverend Paula is about a month away. I expect that she is eagerly awaiting her opportunity to set the record straight.
Or researching and rehearsing the things she needs to "forget" or "not be aware of".@@dovetonsturdee7033
@@dovetonsturdee7033 : of course' i bet she cannot wait to put the mere mortals to rights !
"Known, or ought to have Known"
She was only interested in one thing her BONUS. Disgusting arrest her
Please keep exposing these lying crooks so normal people get some sort of justice it’s a disgrace what’s happened
She lives in a grand house and I bet her bank balance is healthy … courtesy of the prosecuted sub postmasters.
Everyone at the top of the Post Office are guilty to a greater or lessr degree of scapegoating the local Post Office staff to cover up the faults in the Post Office computer system.
They nust see the inside of a jail
Fujitsu told the Post office all about the fault in the system and disregard the findings and blaming the post office managers
Fujitsu and the subsidiary company owned by Rishi Sunak wife's father must be held accountable also. That's why Sunak is pushing Rewanda, Isreal, Russia, Ukraine, Britain arms, etc. To keep the ghosts of his father in law company part of it all. Research it....
Yes whether she knew or not is irrelevant she’s responsible for terrible events and so IS GUILTY
Claw back all payments to her. That she should never have received. This is part of her contact. What a mess and disgusting behaviour
She as to go and visit the inside of a jail house.
I watched this for a good part of the day she came across as a liar just trying to save her own skin, i hope she goes to trial and be made accountable for what she has done
When I watch the Post Office Horizon Inquiry I see hubris of the highest order and insincerity in spades. I haven't yet seen Angela's testimony yet. I don't however expect anything different.
It gets worse everyday I have watched. 'Robust' system goes back before 1999. Horizon was defective even in testing stage from the start.
Corporate structures seems to actively enable people with personality defects to rise to the top
Shes been well coached by her legal team to give nothing away….she needs to be prosecuted as she’s hiding an awful lot…..
If you stood them all in a room and questioned them they would be at arms length at all times due to them pointing at each other!
Liar Liar Pants on Fire. Oh Angela that would be you. What is Priest Paula going to say. Oh well I guess you can forgive yourself ??!!
They need to get back any money/pension the executives made while working for the PO. They all knew what was going on.
She should be in jail . Utterly disgusting .
Why is there is not more emphasis on the where the missing money went when questioning PO staff. It appears as though the SPMs had to prove they did not steal it rather than the burden of proof falling to the PO who were making the claim. If Horizon was correct in highlighting missing money why was none of it recovered.
After umpteen years of this case, it's amazing that there are people who still can't grasp the simple idea that (1) THERE WERE ERRORS IN THE TILL SYSTEM, and (2 ) NO MONEY WENT MISSING. Go back to sleep.
@@Philcopson That was the point of my comment there was no missing money but the horizon system was indicating there was. So the burden of proof on the PO was to trace that supposedly missing money. If they had pursued that more vigorously they would have found out the error was with the Horizon system as the SPMs were indicating.
@@eljay5746 I haven't seen every moment of the coverage of course, but the enquiry doesn't appear to ask the most basic of questions of PO "investigators" like Stephen Bradshaw: "How many cases did you investigate?" "About 700." "In how many cases did you find that the SPMs were living beyond their means?" "None" "Had large sums of money in cash they couldn't account for?" None. "Had money in bank accounts that couldn't be accounted for?" "None" "How were the SPMs removing money?" "I don't know." "Was it your job to find out?" "Yes" "Why would any SPM take money when they know that they are personally responsible for any shortfall?" "I don't know." "Are franchisees being prosecuted for theft in such large numbers in any other branch of retail such as fast-food outlets, pubs, or petrol station?" "No." "Then why do you think that SPMs who have to pass rigorous background checks are more likely to be dishonest than the manager of a McDonalds or a BP filling station?" etc etc. The whole idea that hundreds of people would start taking money when they know for an absolute certainty that they would be found out and lose their livelihoods, is so absurd that only a member of our amoral, light-fingered, back-scratching, bonus-bunny professional classes such Vennels or Bogerd would be stupid enough to believe it. Essentially - they judged others by their own standards.
@@Frank-cd2ij It was that bad the SPM lawyers I believe were advising their clients to take the lesser charge of falsifying accounts. Hopefully they will all be held to account.
@@Philcopson we are not all from the UK. I have just stumbled across this saga and I live in NZ. be kind on those of us who don't have all the details yet.
Someone needs to be held accountable now!
The police must get involved now..
Have you ever heard the expression "hung, drawn and quartered"?
She's displaying willful ignorance and trying to deflect her responsibilities onto others.
It was obvious she knew everything.but she is clever and deceiving as most are in those senior positions. She is an evil person.
No clever enough, stupid, thought I was going to buried forever. Jail time coming.
Shameful behavior keep up the good work in exposing this injustice
If she didn't know, or didn't read the e-mails, or hadn't heard the message, or wan't on message, just what was she doing? Sowing?
Just lock her up
When arrested she will crack..
Jason beer KC When he asked her. Just what job did you do???
Those found guilty should go to jail, lose their home/s and have all their money seized and given to the sub postmasters. We are far too lax in this country. In the U. S. They would already be in jail.
Thank goodness for journalists like Nick Ross. He’s been a champion of the victims of this outrage for years now.
Hope the police are at the enquiry recording all this lying.
How on earth were these people allowed to be in such senior positions ? I thought there were under oath when they are testifying , constant lying and ignoring the facts. I only hope these people are brought to a criminal court as they earned such high salarys. Disgusting .
Do we really expect any of the senior POL people to admit collectively or individually to perverting the course of justice or to self-incriminate. The trouble with the Inquiry is that it is probably making a successful police investigation leading to convictions less likely by delaying things further. They have all employed solicitors or counsel before appearing and have been carefully coached what to say, and what not to say. Dont expect anyone to accept responsibility. They are sorry the truth came out..
thank you Nick
You can tell when she is lying….HER LIPS MOVE….
Some of these people are still employed by the Post Office on huge wages and bonuses.
What for ?
I suspect that as with other "Inquiries" it will cost us the taxpayers millions and in the end some will get a smack on the wrist and nothing else. Compensation should have been paid a long time ago, the hole thing is a "pass the buck" like all the other Inquiries.
Saying "I'm sorry for what happened to you" is an expression of sympathy, not apology.
If you're in charge, you are accountable. That's why you get more money, for your expertise.
She severely failed herself in her indifference to horrific suffering.
Selective memory when questioned. She needs to be in a criminal court 😡
She was ripped to pieces with her silly, I can't remember, I can't recall, my dog ate the email and then the computer crashed.
Clever as in dishonest, sneaky, lacking in integrity or any accountability, lacking in moral fibre......the list goes on.
Amazed how many “Ministers in Charge” also didn’t know anything. SIR Ed Davey springs instantly to mind.
These employees working for POL seem to stonewall the questions with their lack of knowledge and memory . I hope the legal team is able to get this sorted.
Prison for the rest of her life
Really, ?
@@greatunwashed1856 Without question. Corruption needs no mercy
So, the same sentence as a serial killer ?
@@greatunwashed1856 Many crimes warrant life sentences. Stop being so childish with such a ridiculous comparison.
@@inmate1614 , Are you a propronent of capital punishment?
These people who were in charge, are criminal's. The people who have suffered, have lost their livelyhoods, homes, lost their lives, families, you name it they have lost it. Pay them NOW for money these people were accused of stealing and was made to pay back from their savings, and loans from family's ❤ it's scandalous, then they all need a bloody good compensation, of thousands and thousands. The biggest gift will see this lot of liers behind bars for ever.
A cover up! I know nothing! These senior staff should be prosecuted for what they have done!
Agree, Enron scale.
Some of these people want putting in prison when this enquiry finishes
Selective memory in every way…..
Aren’t lies in court contempt? Why are these people still on the streets?
It demonstrates that cowards are the head of these companies.
Tell me, Miss Van der Bogerd, these documents show that you received many e-mails informing you that Fujitsu could access sub-postmaster's accounts, didn't you ?
I don't recall seeing any of them. Not one. By the way, where am I, and who am I again?
Amnesia is very contagious.
The length of time this was all going on, what 20 odd years, they all knew and didn't even investigate any problems or the number of people who they said were stealing, nobody realised they couldn't all be stealing, for god's sake are they all stupid, either that or they should be jailed end of. I am so angry, how do they sleep at night.
These two women are especially in a most liable position of all created out from their own actions.
They will likely make excellent jail mates having lots of time together reflect upon their crimes.
Even then however I doubt in their arrogance still able totally understanding the massive damage they made.
Not until freedom and eventually returning to find their $$ assets been robbed away.
Forever left now as two destitute broken old ladies.
I listened to her evidence extensively. She was caught out lying on a few occassions. She deserves jail time for what happened in my opinion.
One crucial question that the inquiry team appeared not to of asked any of the POL staff is how many discrepancies were actually found at any of the SBM branches pre-Horizon and found to be actually fraudulent as opposed to post-Horizon, I would very interested in the figures for comparison!