Whether I play 4 or 5, I usually end up the lowest networth on my team. Many times, I even buy most of the wards and sods compared to the pos 5. I don't complain, though, as long as I do my job and I help on winning. But I think I really need to learn how to generate gold and exp without stealing from my cores. Thanks for this amazing guide!
Stacking will give you 50% of the gold, dewarding obs gives alot of gold, and in general just play supports that can farm like prophet, jakiro, SB, theres alot of farm on the map, usually just tp too the open wave / dead lane and shove it as far as you can
Just always be aware that having lower priority to the farm doesn't mean that farming isn't a priority to you. This does mean you often have to farm in more dangerous areas, but you should be farming if there's nothing urgent going on.
@@thordoo3047 the thing is many times, while playing as pos 4, I'm the one who buys most the wards, dusts, and sods, and also all the utility items. i had this recent game where our pos 5 willow went tranquil and straight to midas then Aghs in an active, snowballing game (our offlane NS and mid SF were actively moving in the map as soon as we destroyed their lane's t1 tower) vs my hoodwink who went arcane boots, vessel, and force staff i think or at least i was planning on getting that. This willow even sometimes doesn't go on ganks, prioritizing farming together with our carry Faceless Void. I had many games like this, pos 5 shaker who goes Aghs after blink when he can go force staff instead, pos 5 NP who buys shadow blade and maelstrom rather than solar crest, pos 5 Silencer or Jakiro going Aghs after their boots when we clearly need a force staff, etc. This makes me think, am i being too sacrificial in my games? Because if i don't buy this force staff, glimmer, or solar crest asap i feel I'm not doing my part properly.
my advice for my fellow position 4 players is to abuse the twin gates. either use it to farm waves or the small camps near it or to respond to a potential gank from the enemy or gank the other lane itself. i am having high success rates using this method. i highly recommend trying it on SB,Pugna,tusk or even Grimstroke. and a little tip. you can (and should) stack those camps near the twin gates either for your core or you. but that's typically the position 5''s duty to do that. the nearest to the gate can be stacked at 0:55 and the other is 0:57 i think.
Yep, u dont even waste a tp or spend too much time away from lane, and sometimes if u left the lane in a good spot (near your tower), u can return to lane while pulling off a flank if you can win 2v2 with your 3
the part about helping one player to spill their success into beating a hero/area you can't influence was so well put and very important decision making.
Got tired of League and started playing a few days ago. I got the hang of the other 4 roles but the soft support role was still not very clear in my mind, but your video helped me understand better this role which got me the most interest out of the 5 roles
Honestly don't understand why tokens are required to play 4 and 5. I'd say most people wanna play core and only play supp when they need to. Dedicated supp players should not be forced into an off role.
ZaQ, while you refer to your Creep Equilibrium video at around 10:30, you piqued my curiosity: How does your mind typically process a creep wave? Are you objective to the point of "two melee creeps, one at half, one at full health, and a ranged at 75%" or do you think of them as "many creeps" and "few creeps" or as a time-sink, such as "I could last hit all those in 18 seconds" or as a single entity "an enemy blob of about 1800 health and 30dps" or by their gold value "120 gold is walking at me"? Just wondering. I guess the Support answer is they're little walking wards. Everyone has their own method of compressing too-much-data, and I'd be interested in hearing some of your mental tricks.
Ah pos4... my 2nd role...or well, considering making it my main because 3 is honestly a painful experience in no small part due to the sheer amount of griefing done by pos4s compared to all other roles, which stems from the freedom the role offers - so much that ppl think they can do anything, including sit & do nothing while leeching exp while u get murdered 1 v 2. On top of randomly shitty picks that bring little to nothing leading to the 4 & 3 hating each others guts and muting each other by min 5, there's a surprisingly amount of lack of hero limits knowledge I've noticed in this position from than usual in the sense that I'll often see ppl take trades with the enemy 5 that they can't win (and they're the ones forcing 'em too), while fighting either in horrible spots where the 3 cant help, or is forced to make a decision he dont want in giving up a wave early vs trying to help, or position themselves between the enemy 5 & carry that has a gap closer. Then they die and the 3 is left 1 v 2 and then he dies or gets zoned, etc/welcome to hell. Whenever I play it, it honestly doesn't seem THAT hard. Play like a more aggressive 5, more focused on making the enemy 1's hell rather than focusing on their 5 (unless he just giving freebies ofc) , with roams when required/can leave 3 alone/ can do nothing in lane, but if the carry can be punished in a 2v2 repeatedily, and draw pressure from the enemy 4 or mid , I don't get why more 4s just don't do that and instead try to pull off these "big brain" (1 iq) roams that have a small CHANCE of succeeding, and even if they do, all they accomplished is relieve pressure on the enemy 1 or trade a kill cause your 3 got 2 v 1'd. In that sense, I hope more ppl watch this vid and SPECIFICALLY FOCUS ON WHEN TO LEAVE LANE & WHEN NOT TO, (from min 23 + , Roaming Setup) particularly the part where you established lane equilibrium just enough that you buy yourself the roam time. And that's how I look at it honestly ... roaming time is something I try to buy for myself steming from what I did in lane/how I left it, etc, unless my 3's not doing anything either ofc, then yea, we go our own way :D
Pos 4 is the funnest position in the game, but it's also the one that gets you yelled at by the most people. Pos 5 wants you easing their support roles, pos 3 wants you to win them their lane, pos 2 wants you ganking, pos 1 gets mad whenever you push out a wave of farm even if it's dangerous with all the enemies missing. STILL the funnest, haha.
My requests as a 3 are little for my 4s: - don't be that one pudge/mirana dude that sits semi-afk waiting for the "perfect" hook/arrow, while I get murdered constantly 2 v 1. - pick something that's actually useful, cause just cause it's the most "free" role, doesn't mean monkey king is gonna be a good 4... Now, I'm not sure that's much to ask, cause at least 1/3 times, it seems like a steep request...
@@MgMast3r it really depends, if my pos3 is sth like DK or Tide, and seeing lane position, I feel ez to rotate.. but since most 4 have to pick early, let’s say I pick Mirana and then my pos3 is sth like slardar or viper.. then even tho I picked a ez roaming, I can’t leave them alone.. so it’s obs. ward, lane position, unblocked camp, also enemy’s kill potential on them.. But rotating to mid(safe even) when offlane is lvl4 can be very good, for offlane to get level 6 faster
@@xMoomin We're already getting into more advanced moves there, I'm content with non-griefing 4s that don't do what I just mentioned : D Like, I get the 1/10 miranas that remember they actually have autos, and fast ones to boot esp with jump, and starfal can add to some dmg, so they do more than just be an arrow bot, but 9/10 times it's just that. as for leaving lane, vid said it all from 23+ , "Roaming Setup" ~ the roam from that PoV is kinda like "earned" in the sense that u leave the lane in a good spot to give yourself the window to roam while sacrificing little, cause what good is one roam if it leads to losing you the whole lane? Ofc if your 3's an ape and takes a 1 v 2 despite u leaving 'em in a great spot, that's on him.
Dude, been watching your stuffs. Your slides along with the screenshots, they’re the best! 6x6 rule for ppt slides were also applied. Highly educated youtube educating a lot of people on the “toxic” dota community.
Hey, thank you for this. Pos 4 is a lot of fun early game when you realize the ammount of stuff that you can do. I'd ask if its in your plans anything specific for how to play melee heros in weak lanes after dragging creeps After I do that I'm usually not sure what to do (do I stay soaking xp for lvl 2?, go stack? Go ward? Kill attempt under tower?) I mainly play tiny4 but cant seem to make it quite work
Depends on your hero, but tending towards your strong heroes would prob be best. Pos 5’s are generally better at taking lanes or babysitting, but it may be necessary for Pos 4 to as well.
Help strong heros as a rule of thumb, the weak hero will appreciate the space you create so that he can recover. Staying with a weak hero should be a priority only if your presence changes his farm for better and theres no other play to be made on the map (usually there is at least one)
I would also think of it, that by shutting down the enemy safe lane your taking pressure off your safe lane and mid as well if you have priority in the lane you then have the ability to roam safely (I.e. not putting your 4 in danger) so I would generally reccomend a 4 that can really apply pressure, I've played a few games of CW recently and it's nasty. Just some food for thought
Yesterday I played wd as pos4 lost lane me 0 5 opponent jugg is 5 0 latter I joined team fight, gone for blink dagger & aganms sep then we owned the game finally got mvp😅😅
Whether I play 4 or 5, I usually end up the lowest networth on my team. Many times, I even buy most of the wards and sods compared to the pos 5. I don't complain, though, as long as I do my job and I help on winning. But I think I really need to learn how to generate gold and exp without stealing from my cores. Thanks for this amazing guide!
Stacking will give you 50% of the gold, dewarding obs gives alot of gold, and in general just play supports that can farm like prophet, jakiro, SB, theres alot of farm on the map, usually just tp too the open wave / dead lane and shove it as far as you can
Just always be aware that having lower priority to the farm doesn't mean that farming isn't a priority to you. This does mean you often have to farm in more dangerous areas, but you should be farming if there's nothing urgent going on.
P5's shouldn't be ahead of you in net worth... You are missing some serious $ somewhere consistently.
@@thordoo3047 the thing is many times, while playing as pos 4, I'm the one who buys most the wards, dusts, and sods, and also all the utility items. i had this recent game where our pos 5 willow went tranquil and straight to midas then Aghs in an active, snowballing game (our offlane NS and mid SF were actively moving in the map as soon as we destroyed their lane's t1 tower) vs my hoodwink who went arcane boots, vessel, and force staff i think or at least i was planning on getting that. This willow even sometimes doesn't go on ganks, prioritizing farming together with our carry Faceless Void. I had many games like this, pos 5 shaker who goes Aghs after blink when he can go force staff instead, pos 5 NP who buys shadow blade and maelstrom rather than solar crest, pos 5 Silencer or Jakiro going Aghs after their boots when we clearly need a force staff, etc. This makes me think, am i being too sacrificial in my games? Because if i don't buy this force staff, glimmer, or solar crest asap i feel I'm not doing my part properly.
Buy midas
Haven't played for 10 years. This is incredibly useful
What I get from your videos as a returning player is invaluable to me.
Thank you for your help and hard work in getting these videos out.
my advice for my fellow position 4 players is to abuse the twin gates. either use it to farm waves or the small camps near it or to respond to a potential gank from the enemy or gank the other lane itself. i am having high success rates using this method. i highly recommend trying it on SB,Pugna,tusk or even Grimstroke. and a little tip. you can (and should) stack those camps near the twin gates either for your core or you. but that's typically the position 5''s duty to do that. the nearest to the gate can be stacked at 0:55 and the other is 0:57 i think.
Yep, u dont even waste a tp or spend too much time away from lane, and sometimes if u left the lane in a good spot (near your tower), u can return to lane while pulling off a flank if you can win 2v2 with your 3
the part about helping one player to spill their success into beating a hero/area you can't influence was so well put and very important decision making.
Got tired of League and started playing a few days ago. I got the hang of the other 4 roles but the soft support role was still not very clear in my mind, but your video helped me understand better this role which got me the most interest out of the 5 roles
Great guide! Would love to see a video about spotting different landing mistakes in lower MMRs and how to best punish them.
Great updated content for Pos 4! Ran out of queue tokens for 5 only so been queueing both 4/5. this guide has been invaluable!
Honestly don't understand why tokens are required to play 4 and 5. I'd say most people wanna play core and only play supp when they need to. Dedicated supp players should not be forced into an off role.
Just rewatched the pos 5 video and this popped up! Awesome timing man
ZaQ, while you refer to your Creep Equilibrium video at around 10:30, you piqued my curiosity: How does your mind typically process a creep wave? Are you objective to the point of "two melee creeps, one at half, one at full health, and a ranged at 75%" or do you think of them as "many creeps" and "few creeps" or as a time-sink, such as "I could last hit all those in 18 seconds" or as a single entity "an enemy blob of about 1800 health and 30dps" or by their gold value "120 gold is walking at me"? Just wondering. I guess the Support answer is they're little walking wards. Everyone has their own method of compressing too-much-data, and I'd be interested in hearing some of your mental tricks.
this channel is like a masterclass
These guides are so refreshing. Great details, awesome advice, and not some carry tuber who is just making stuff up.
Your content is Grade A. Thank you!
Nice video! little note:
When you stack, you will get ep/gold anyway, not needed to stand in range
You get more xp staying near
@@kingslimekira "You" maybe yes, but not the whole team.. the team loses ep if you stand close to the stacks you made.
Ah pos4... my 2nd role...or well, considering making it my main because 3 is honestly a painful experience in no small part due to the sheer amount of griefing done by pos4s compared to all other roles, which stems from the freedom the role offers - so much that ppl think they can do anything, including sit & do nothing while leeching exp while u get murdered 1 v 2. On top of randomly shitty picks that bring little to nothing leading to the 4 & 3 hating each others guts and muting each other by min 5, there's a surprisingly amount of lack of hero limits knowledge I've noticed in this position from than usual in the sense that I'll often see ppl take trades with the enemy 5 that they can't win (and they're the ones forcing 'em too), while fighting either in horrible spots where the 3 cant help, or is forced to make a decision he dont want in giving up a wave early vs trying to help, or position themselves between the enemy 5 & carry that has a gap closer. Then they die and the 3 is left 1 v 2 and then he dies or gets zoned, etc/welcome to hell.
Whenever I play it, it honestly doesn't seem THAT hard. Play like a more aggressive 5, more focused on making the enemy 1's hell rather than focusing on their 5 (unless he just giving freebies ofc) , with roams when required/can leave 3 alone/ can do nothing in lane, but if the carry can be punished in a 2v2 repeatedily, and draw pressure from the enemy 4 or mid , I don't get why more 4s just don't do that and instead try to pull off these "big brain" (1 iq) roams that have a small CHANCE of succeeding, and even if they do, all they accomplished is relieve pressure on the enemy 1 or trade a kill cause your 3 got 2 v 1'd. In that sense, I hope more ppl watch this vid and SPECIFICALLY FOCUS ON WHEN TO LEAVE LANE & WHEN NOT TO, (from min 23 + , Roaming Setup) particularly the part where you established lane equilibrium just enough that you buy yourself the roam time. And that's how I look at it honestly ... roaming time is something I try to buy for myself steming from what I did in lane/how I left it, etc, unless my 3's not doing anything either ofc, then yea, we go our own way :D
Pos 4 is the funnest position in the game, but it's also the one that gets you yelled at by the most people. Pos 5 wants you easing their support roles, pos 3 wants you to win them their lane, pos 2 wants you ganking, pos 1 gets mad whenever you push out a wave of farm even if it's dangerous with all the enemies missing.
STILL the funnest, haha.
yahh pos4, imo requires the most critical decision making, 5 is baby sit clear cut, so is 1... 4,2,3 in that order is more decision making..
although recently 5 is changing imo, with twin gates, and power rune fights requiring pos5 TPs sometimes
My requests as a 3 are little for my 4s:
- don't be that one pudge/mirana dude that sits semi-afk waiting for the "perfect" hook/arrow, while I get murdered constantly 2 v 1.
- pick something that's actually useful, cause just cause it's the most "free" role, doesn't mean monkey king is gonna be a good 4...
Now, I'm not sure that's much to ask, cause at least 1/3 times, it seems like a steep request...
@@MgMast3r it really depends, if my pos3 is sth like DK or Tide, and seeing lane position, I feel ez to rotate.. but since most 4 have to pick early, let’s say I pick Mirana and then my pos3 is sth like slardar or viper.. then even tho I picked a ez roaming, I can’t leave them alone.. so it’s obs. ward, lane position, unblocked camp, also enemy’s kill potential on them..
But rotating to mid(safe even) when offlane is lvl4 can be very good, for offlane to get level 6 faster
@@xMoomin We're already getting into more advanced moves there, I'm content with non-griefing 4s that don't do what I just mentioned : D
Like, I get the 1/10 miranas that remember they actually have autos, and fast ones to boot esp with jump, and starfal can add to some dmg, so they do more than just be an arrow bot, but 9/10 times it's just that.
as for leaving lane, vid said it all from 23+ , "Roaming Setup" ~ the roam from that PoV is kinda like "earned" in the sense that u leave the lane in a good spot to give yourself the window to roam while sacrificing little, cause what good is one roam if it leads to losing you the whole lane? Ofc if your 3's an ape and takes a 1 v 2 despite u leaving 'em in a great spot, that's on him.
my good sir. do you have extensive videos on how to properly use items? like bloodstone for example, for dummies like me
Yep dummy here. Want learn to use items properly. Sometimes find myself not building certain items because cant correctly use them
Dude, been watching your stuffs. Your slides along with the screenshots, they’re the best! 6x6 rule for ppt slides were also applied. Highly educated youtube educating a lot of people on the “toxic” dota community.
This is a great presentation. Thank you for sharing!
Amazing guide, you have rare quality of guides
useful guide. thanks so much because i'm a support in 10 years
😘
Thanks zquack.
Weaver support is legit.
Love and blessings!
Hey Zach, thanks for the awesome video. I hope you have fun in China!
Recently found your channel through the slacks collab. Loving it thanks
I do creep dragging in guardian BEFORE I know this was a thing. I didnt even know there was a name for it :V
hhhh doing it since warcraft dota hhh
@@xMoomin nah, i've been doing it for an year :P
Hey, thank you for this. Pos 4 is a lot of fun early game when you realize the ammount of stuff that you can do. I'd ask if its in your plans anything specific for how to play melee heros in weak lanes after dragging creeps After I do that I'm usually not sure what to do (do I stay soaking xp for lvl 2?, go stack? Go ward? Kill attempt under tower?) I mainly play tiny4 but cant seem to make it quite work
Is it better for a pos4 to focus on reinforcing the strong part of your team or aiding the weak part of your team?
Depends on your hero, but tending towards your strong heroes would prob be best. Pos 5’s are generally better at taking lanes or babysitting, but it may be necessary for Pos 4 to as well.
Depends on the hero, and your draft.
Help strong heros as a rule of thumb, the weak hero will appreciate the space you create so that he can recover. Staying with a weak hero should be a priority only if your presence changes his farm for better and theres no other play to be made on the map (usually there is at least one)
I would also think of it, that by shutting down the enemy safe lane your taking pressure off your safe lane and mid as well if you have priority in the lane you then have the ability to roam safely (I.e. not putting your 4 in danger) so I would generally reccomend a 4 that can really apply pressure, I've played a few games of CW recently and it's nasty. Just some food for thought
Position 4. The position with the most freedom!
goated videos
Thanks
Can you do a guide for every role? And a jg stacking / pulling guide? And an item guide?
760 Upton Via
Nice haircut, bud!
First!!
Great video as always Zach.
nice!
Anderson Edward Perez Helen Smith Jason
Creepilibrium
This whole video reminds me of the logic of Communism. "The theory seems legit and great while the execution is disastrous"
Great video Sir
Yesterday I played wd as pos4 lost lane me 0 5 opponent jugg is 5 0 latter I joined team fight, gone for blink dagger & aganms sep then we owned the game finally got mvp😅😅
Play dark Willow and then go carry because your carry sucks