Everything You Know About Regulators is WRONG
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
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The two types of regulators exist for two different purposes. Both types have the same type (if not exactly the same model) of regulator on the cylinder, which drops the cylinder pressure to the intermediate pressure for either a needle valve or a second stage regulator that includes some known downstream restriction. If you care about actual flow, as for example we do when adjusting medical gases delivered to patients in the hospital, you use a flowmeter. If you care about delivering a specific low pressure, such as a supply to a torch, you use a regulator - often with two stages. The "flow rate" gauge on a two-stage regulator (two dials) presumes a certain differential pressure across the (hopefully) calibrated orifice. If your welder or torch has a flow restriction somewhere the flowmeter type will show you that it is not delivering the flow you had set. The two-stage regulator type will not. That's why when your torch is off the flowmeter type will show no flow but the dual gauge regulator will show whatever "flow" (pressure) you had set.
In short, neither type is necessarily giving us correct information on the flow rate. In the case of the flowmeter, we do not know how well (if at all) it was calibrated. In the case of the two-stage regulator, the gauge on it is a lie to begin with. Both can be calibrated, but the two stage regulator can never directly show gas flow.
Both types will struggle when they do not receive sufficient intermediate pressure. The two-stage regulator will likely start struggling to deliver what you expect at a lower cylinder pressure, but both will struggle. Anyone familiar with scuba diving who has ever breathed a tank all the way to empty will immediately understand this, because the most common scuba regulator is a two-stage. The difference is most first stage scuba regulators compensate for depth by varying the intermediate pressure, whereas welding regulators do not change the intermediate pressure based upon atmospheric pressure. As a scuba instructor, I have seen the insides of many different brands of regulators, and a few medical gas regulators. Welding regulators are a whole lot more simple, in part because they do not have to be designed in a failsafe manner.
I learned tig from one of the highest rated welders in the USA. He was an aircraft welder that went around to Lockheed, Raytheon, you name the company, teaching their guys how to weld. He said never look at the gage…instead, point the nozzle at your lips and set your flow so you could just barely feel the gas. That’s what I do, and it’s never let me down😊🦅
*Wait, you're not a smoker, are you?*
until tungsten is sticking out just a little far and you lick a HF start. Then you will never do it again. I also learned from a great airopace welder. Jody over at welding tips & tricks
I tig weld aluminum allllllll day for a local trike factory. We use the 330 cu ft. Tanks and yes as the day goes by you need to bump the flow up because the tank is getting empty and can't produce the same pressure. But it's not that serious it's pretty self explanatory
A flow meter is a flow meter not a pressure regulator. Theres more to flow regulation than pressure regulation. cheers.
I’ve been experimenting with this a bit lately and found some of the same issues with flow dropping as the cylinder empties. I’ve been really happy with the victor regulator that came with my HTP. I still use a dual flowmeter style on one machine to allow for a purge line, though.
The reason why the flow drops is because of the pressure differential across the orifice is dropping. Down to a certain tank pressure, the flow through the orifice is what is known as choked flow, that is the flow velocity is at the sonic velocity of the gas at the given conditions. Once the tank pressure drops below the critical pressure, the flow through the orifice is proportional to the pressure drop across the orifice. What two stage regulators do is drop the pressure in two stages (Duh!) so that the flowrate through the second orifice will always be at sonic, or critical, velocity. Even with the two stage regulators there will be a tank pressure at which periodic adjustment of the regulator setpoint will be needed. This tank pressure for a two stage regulator will be significantly lower than that for a single stage regulator. The ball type flowmeters are accurate at a specific gas pressure that is flowing through them. I have a flowmeter for my HVAC tools that is accurate at a 50 psig inlet pressure. As a result, when I go to purge refrigerant lines for brazing, I have to set the regulator at 50 psig and use the outlet valve of the flowmeter to adjust the flowrate. The accuracy of the flowmeter will be dependent on the gas pressure which governs the flowing density and flow velocity which will affect the accuracy of the flow meter. It is much too complicated of a subject to demonstrate here how a 10% change in gas pressure to a ball type flowmeter will affect the accuracy of the flow measurement. hth
PS: I look forward to watching your videos Tim and have learned a lot from you about the practical aspects of welding.
Id like to see what calibrated gauge he is talking about. As a fluid control specialist, i dont agree with everything he is saying. The proportional aspect of a 1 stage reg is correct. The flow reading on the ball flow meter is not correct. That ball and orifice is most correct measurement device. It is calibrated for gas density at any pressure. Flow and pressure are directly related, so measuring flow with a "guage" seems wrong. Flow needs to flowing to measure and pressure disregarded. Just like A vs V. Measuring V while focusing on setting Amps is secondary info.
The only correct way to measure flow is via a flowmeter, or a known volume (trash bag) in time, not a gauge. Good video tho and always good to discuss deeper dives into theory.
The gauge type meter is just reading the pressure behind an orifice. The numbers on the gauge are not PSI bur rather predicted flow values for the orifice. It doesn't seem accurate to me. I didn't follow "The flow reading on the ball flow meter is not correct. That ball and orifice is most correct measurement device." The statements seem to contradict.
@@jheissjr yeah i fat fingered that. The ball is the most correct gauge.
Neat to know about the gauge with the orifice downstream. I guess that makes it quite a bit more accurate than I thought, i always just assumed it was a pressure gauge.
I always use a flow tester/rotameter for gas nozzles and cups, to get an accurate reading, because the journey of the gas from the tank to the nozzle/cup is long and anything can be wrong somewhere, faulty tubes, etc.
This is the best advice I’ve seen regarding this video. I’ve seen people throw away spools of wire, change gas bottles, buy regulators etc all because their gas line was pinched or something. I recently had a ton of wormhole porosity suddenly on a dual shield project. Flow meter at tank was showing 30-35 was getting less than 12 at the gun.
Im not sure why th8s guy would be so willing to go on camera and tell you that everyone is reading a flowmeter the wrong way.
Since welding school, I've always been told, and have read that to correctly determine gas flow through a flowmeter, you must read from the top of the ball.
I only just read from a scientific article, (brand name was not mentioned) that gas flow is determined based on where the centre ofthe ball is located.
If you have a "bobbin" in your flowmeter as opposed to a ball, then gas flow is also determined from the top.
This is one of the easiest questions to look up. Almost all manufacturers (Victor) tell you to read the top of the ball.
Maybe this guy just got confused.
Got to give him credit for his confidence though.....
Love your videos. Will binge some today. As i haven't seen any for the past month and a half.
Keep up the great work and amazing content
I was told to read the center of the ball. 😂
My Victors say middle. But it doesn’t matter.
I've learnt at TAFE Collage to read off the centre of the ball. I have used a bobbin style once and it had a Red ring around the top 1/16" from the very top of the Bobbin, and the Sheet said to read to the Red line.
I'd argue that this type of flow meters accuracy is wide enough that you can read any point on the ball and that's enough
The point you read on the ball would be the maufactuers callibration point.
Don't you just love listening to someone who KNOWS WTF he's talking about? I could listen to him all day & checking out his channel too. Thankx Tay - great set..
$50. -$80. for a tank of gas, us here in Hawaii can only dream to pay that much for a cylinder of Argon Gas. My friend went to our local AirGas store he was quoted over $1000 for a 330 cubic foot bottle.
Great video as always! Thanks for keeping this video on point and informative. I love your normal style but when it’s a learning/ instruction straight to the point is the best . I like how he’s not bashing any person/company but he actually explains just the nature of the beast of each product . Keep rocking LAS👍
Lift Arc makes it real. Again, I always pick up something new every video.
This is all good info and was taught in every class I have been in for the last 40 years. Apprenticeships are needed in every trade job for a reason. Also this fine gentleman shout have mentioned PSIG. It is not PSI there is a difference and this is what he is referring to a few times in this video. Good video.
Nice clarification!
The most precise gas regulation is done for fine oxy-acteylene work but you can use dual stage regulators for shielding gas too. Single stage regulation is inherently less precise at lower cylinder pressures. Airco and successor Concoa dual stage outfits are popular with precision acetylene welders and some use them for TIG by swapping in a CGA-580 nipple and nut.
As for how to read flowmeters I never see CZcamsrs contact tech support for the manufacturers who design them. Further, anyone can set gas flow as they would set other settings simply by welding some similar scrap then tweaking for best results on ones OWN equipment.
You can and we did get the effect of a dual stage system when using manifolds (we built shielding gas manifolds for our welding school booths) by setting base pressure at the party pack or Dewar output regulator then fine tuning with a flowmeter downstream. Our booths used standard pneumatic chucks with two chucks (one for purge, one for torch) at each station. We swapped the flowmeter inlet nipples with 1/4" NPT brass nipples which gave us instant flowmeter swapout which made my life running the toolroom and repairing regulators much more convenient. (WARNING, the manifold ran at LOW pressure not full cylinder pressure so study and know, don't guess when plumbing high pressure industrial gases.)
You can set amps and gas flow without even seeing an indicator because we did when training pipe welders who may be hundreds of feet away from their power source doing boiler and refinery work. (They yell to their helper to "bump" settings up or down.) Good weld? Good settings.
Not usually one to comment on things like this, but I did want to add one note in regards of higher pressure and vortex sucking in ambient air. He is right for 99% of application, but there's one application that I've personally run into and experimented with, that this statement is actually true. It's not a common joint type for most welders, but in the repair area, as you try to weld an edge on a thinner part (and this seems to be applicable only on thin parts of about 1/8" or less, with it getting worse as the material gets thinner).
For ease of explanation, pretend that you have a piece of 1/16" aluminum sheet panel that's 12"x12" and you want to add some material right on the edge of to build up thickness of the panel. So with your panel laying horizontally flat in a parallel plane to your welding table, BUT it must also spaced up from the table, so you put a say 2" spacer under it. You then have you're tungsten in a vertical position over the edge of the panel to run a bead, as if you wanted that panel to have a weld bead all around but maintaining that 12"x12" over all dimension making just the outside border to be say 1/8" thick with the weld on there. As about 1/3 to 1/2 of your cup's shielding gas if passing through that 1/16" edge thickness, a vortex can be created by pressurized argon slicing that edge and drawing in the ambient air to your weld puddle. And as you increase the Argo pressure in that situation, you'll notice that your welds start to look worse instead of better as the vortex becomes stronger, so the remedy becomes to run as little gas pressure as possible to reduce the induced vortex that comes from under the panel.
As mentioned, this is a very rare occurrence, but none the less a legitimate one that I have personally run into. And sometimes it only takes one things like this to have everyone using the expression that more gas pressure can cause a vortex and ruin your weld. But other than that, great informational video!
If you do want to try this out, I have to stress that it really has to be a part suspended in mid air, not laying flat on the table. You wouldn't run into this issue with it on the table (nor backed with something), as that would also stop the vortex from being created. And I find it doesn't do it with thicker parts neither as the vortex created is far enough away from the weld puddle if your torch angle is perpendicular to the part. However, it can still happen if you have too much torch angle to the outside of the part and the statement would also be true then that more gas pressure would make a bigger vortex causing it to be worse.
🤣🤣🤣 Boy y'all gonna start some shiiiiiiiiit today 😂😂😂 Hell its only Easter Sunday so why not lololol
I have several 50 year old Airco 2 stage regulator/ flow meters that always have worked perfectly and still do.
I find the information pertaining to the gas retention in the line very interesting as I did the flow meter not "keeping up" as the tank empties out. As for reading the top or the bottom of the ball in the flow gauge, does it really matter since most will just use the reading as a reference and dial in the desired gas flow as needed.
Have to watch again, to take all that Information in
Mr Tig lives on....
I think that's who he had mentioned early in the video.
@@saulvalladares96 czcams.com/video/zcM-1-siaO0/video.html maybe one day we'll see Tay do the Wyatt Swaim dance
Lately I've been suspecting my gas of sabotaging my welds. And I will have to buy a Peruna reducer (the best brand in Poland for USD 120), PITER IT'S YOUR FAULT!!!!!!!! :D Thanks for the solid arguments! Greetings from Poland
Western Enterprises Accu-Trol ACU-200 regulator 100 bucks. I have them on every one of my welders field and shop. I will never use another regulator ever again.
Great knowledge on this little clip.. There's nothing like a wise man on the subject at hand.. nothing.
I had this exact problem with pulse MIG aluminum. Interesting. I assume the gas was crappy at the bottom of the tank😂😂😂
GD, Peter dropping truth bombs EVERYWHERE!!!!! Love this guy.
I figured out if the flow is to small I get bad welds, next I figured out if the flow is too high I get bad welds. It has to be just right. flow to high was kinda tough because I thought more has to be better.
It is not, I found out high flow is too turbulent and it pulls in oxygen and the weld gets porosity.
Some times it is a struggle getting it right. I really need to pick up a gas lens and some of those clear cups.
peter is a mountain of welding knowledge. you cant ask for a better teacher.
What is a calibrated gauge he talks about at 2:46?
Yes, Zilla has been in the Welding Industry for so long and he is very bright, that he tries all sorts of things and Documents the Realities that he Incurs. I cheat slightly by using a 2 stage regulator with just a Small Pressure gauge above the Diaphragm, then have a flow meter on the output, As my bottle gets down I increase the Regulator Pressure to keep getting a Decent flow to the Torch, I use Rubber Oxy hose to the Machine, It is small bore and doesn't expand (I hate those Clear lightly internally braided lines that they give you with at least a 5/16" bore) and when you put the Pressure on you can Feel them getting bigger in Diameter, when you hit the Trigger you get a big "Whoosh" of Gas and it uses your Gas up Faster.
I might be a fool but flow is one measurement but well the pressure really matter also.
I am in the UK and can not believe what is in this video. After fifty years in the industry, I have never seen a gas cylinder used without a regulator, it would not be allowed. Also, we use water-cooled torches.
Who was using a gas bottle without a regulator???
So who is this guy? Why is his word better than anyone else’s?
Not saying he’s wrong but what makes him credential vs anyone else on CZcams or some random old guy who says he knows about welding
his name is Peter Zila and he is like the spock person for HTP welding mech Weld USA he help designed the HTP Revolution 2500
Very informative, who is that guy and if he made some videos, does he have a youtube channel?
Blows my mind that this is “new information” for a lot of professional welders out there. It’s like know one practices or pays attention to details during different applications/jobs etc.
“Professional Welder” (to me) is not someone who can weld neat. There is a lot more to the trade than pretty colours and “stacking dimes” . Gawash I hate that term.
Interesting.
You're the type of person who lays their acetylene bottle on its side and turns the pressure up past 15psi, and doesn't use flashback arrestors either
You don't need flashback arrestors with shielding gas... (The subject of this video.)
oh when people wake up there's gonna be a LOT of eArguing going on, I can tell.
from an engineering standpoint, i'd like to find out more about this guy's credentials, testing tools, and testing methodology.
he's saying some interesting things, but i'm in the "trust but verify" camp on everything.
also, which Victor gauge is he referring to.
If he is just letting the gas shoot straight up out of the torch then his methodology is wrong. When you tig weld you point the cup at something, so I can totally see higher cfh hitting the work piece and swirling potentially causing air to get mixed in. But hey, say something with confidence and people believe it.
A lot of BS information here. I weld using a flow meter, I know when my welding is working and when it is not. If you keep an eye on your flow meter as you weld, you’ll quickly learn what you need it to read to weld at whatever setting, that’s the key, it’s not “you need exactly 10 CFM to weld stainless” no, you need what you need to weld stainless in your situation… If your welds start suddenly acting funny, and you aren’t checking your gas and everything else, then what the heck are you doing?
Wow! Excellent video
Thankyou.
He says at 4:39 that the flow type gauge shows a reading higher than the actual flow when the tank is 200 psi. In other words the flow gauge deviates higher and higher from the actual flow as the tank pressure drops. Why does this happen?
If you can't answer that in your head you don't need to know.
Thanks but no thanks I'll stick with my Victor flow gage.
The only time I have flow issues is when my bottle is too low to provide the flow.
I've never had to adjust or readjust it due to bottle pressure.
Don't buy a single stage cheap piece of junk.
so wth regulatotor do i need
Read through the comments you'll find the answer. Set the gauge then adjust to get best weld then adjust again as you start noticing it's not welding well
I dunno. Sounds like some physics are being argued against, here...
And here I just bought two harris flowmeters to replace on my tanks...
love it
You do not read the gas from the bottom of the ball. You read the gas flow from the centre of the ball.
It actually depends on the flow meter. It is not standardized for welding flow meters, which is annoying and lame. Sometimes it says on the flow meter how it should be read, sometimes you have to check the manual-so bad. I am not sure why he would make the claim he did in the video.
News to me@@quieroverduras
@@quieroverdurasPossibly because it's the safest assumption to ensure you have a minimum flow rate.
The instructions for my flow meters say middle. But really, it doesn’t matter as long as you’re consistent in how you read it. The difference is really small.
☠️ You're out of your mind if you try to use a flow meter with out a regular ! A flow meter is not ment to be used at high pressure ☠️ it is used after the regulator to get a accurate measuremen and fine tune the gas flow . I don't know what this guy is talking about ?
Thats cool but can you prove it actually makes a difference, how about bringing the calibrated gauge with you to show youre not just talking shit
I don't know where this guy came from? The ball on the flow tube is measured at the top of the ball not the bottom. The hose type and length also has an impact on the flow especially at the start , surge. Best way to know for sure is measure flow at the nozzle for either mig or tig. Who tig weld or even mig welds for two or three hours at a time? One word - DISINFORMATION
🙏🙏
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Can you mint on your cheek!
Sounds like snake oil.
I'm of the school of thought that you can't really over gas a weld as long as the gas isn't moving the puddle