The darkside of the ENTJ
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- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
- #entj #intp #16personalities
ENTJs, dark? Surely this cannot be? Yes you're hearing me right, the warm and cuddly ENTJs can in fact be dark...
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ENTJs need Darth Vader theme music when they are in dark mode.
Amen! ~ Nathan
It was my ringtone for a while lol coworkers got a kick out of it. #ENTJ
@@amya.6814 lol 😆
Anakin was an entj
I like Madara Uchiha music even more
ENTJ when angry:
*plays World War II documentary*
My parents call me Hitler when I'm angry ... It actually makes me even angrier than before because IT'S NOT FUNNY AT AAALL. (oh, here we go again.)
@@lucieoliviera314 yeah, as an ENTJ myself, when I talk about my goals people say I'm scary (keep in mind my goals aren't anything bad) and say I'm weird, with the way I talk about my opinions and debate, I often dont go with the norm of today's society because I see it as self destructive, and when I explain why to my classmates all they do is call me weird and come up with excuses for their self destructive behavior or an even more pathetic response "well I'm already self destructive so what's the point of changing", so yeah, I hate it when we get labelled as something we're not by rather more emotional people
@@firstnamelastname3173 I totally understand ... For example, I have a very specific life goal from childhood: I will work in a publishing house and write books. It tends to impress people when I say that from my childhood I already knew what I wanted to do with my life. But on the other hand, as soon as I say that I would put all the chances on my side to get there, (In fact, as soon as I show my ambition) people consider that I only think of myself ... I find this way of thinking so hypocritical...If you have a goal in life, you have to fight for it. I am not saying that you must fall into dishonesty. I don't see why that would be selfish. This is just the game.
Delicious Eastern Front lectures...
@@schwerpunkt7687 Uh no... I wouldn't go that far.
As an ENTJ, it's not my fault if you guys are irrational.
Exactly!!! I'm an ENTJ too
EXACTLYY!!
Get some self-confidence already.
ENTJs UNITE!
Hahahahaha truu
I agree, just why can't you get better
Mmm hello, I saw ENTJ in the title so I'm here.
Hope you enjoyed the video or found it useful in some ~ Nathan
@@lovewho, I did, it was an informative video, keep up the good work!
~ Tammy-Lynne
take me to your house
But are you here at 2x speed?
same bro
I know an ENTJ that is all of this. He’s been called the steamroller, and says openly that he will exploit weakness without restraint, that he is always looking for an angle to get ahead (and is successful). Despite the obvious cut throat behavior and critical-bordering-on-abusive manner, he can win over just about anyone. That combo of relentless drive, charisma, and vision can be damaging when it undermines the well-being of others (and the self, when he pushes his own limits just as hard).
Fascinating! Sounds mildly scary to meet a dark ENTJ in real life ~ Nathan
Love Who 😂 absolutely. I sometimes fall into that and I know much the people will fear me.
Ride there victory train. Just give in
ENTJs are the only personality type who are upfront and honest about what they want.
@@lovewho dont be scared we wont kill even you already dead in my brain 😂
I am an ENTJ woman. After dealing with demanding work that requires my brain, I like to run several miles and lift to avoid burn out. It all balances itself out.
Good nutrition and exercise is very important.
"the dominator"
laughs in bottom
(oh god this is such a bad joKE)
as an ENTJ bottom I can tell you that I hate incompetence in bed just as much as in real life lol
@@giulia6253 You would haaaaaaate me.
@@giulia6253 love that, retweet.
Don't mind me, I'm just an INFP who wants to understand how ENTJs work for one of my stories 🙃
Ooooh what is your story about!
BRO I'M ALSO AN INFP HERE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW ENTJ WORKS FOR ONE OF MY STORIES
@@nailachoudhury3795 Thank you for asking! Well..it's kind of strange but I'll try explain it anyway ( sorry for the bad grammar, I don't speak English😅).
It is setted in a steampunk universe, where some genetically modified humans have took over the world and the normal humans, divided in clans and tribes that are at war with each others, need to hide from them.
The main character is a human girl, Alma, she is dreamy, shy, clumsy and not exactly fit for fighting, that's why everyone sees her as the black sheep( so much INFP) and she has a twin sister who fell in love with a guy from a rival clan. When the other humans find out about about them Alma pretends to be her sister and gets exiled instead of her.
Wandering into the woods she meets a monster girl (that's how they call the genetically modified humans) who is very sweet and friendly and takes her to her house where Alma meets the girl's siblings.
One of them is Alex (the ENTJ), that is like the leader of monsters and, of course, he doesn't like her and acts like a cold hearted tyrann, this makes Alma thinks that he is just a jerk. One day, in the library, she hears someone playing the violin behind the bookcases and lives him a message. The day after she finds a letter from the mysterious violinist ( he is Alex)and so the day after and the day after again, they start writing letters to each other without knowing who they are writing to, they also became friends. When they find out their identities they argue for a bit but they understand that maybe they had judged each oter in a wrong way, because of prejudice. During the story they learn a lot from each other and in the end, fall in love.
(Please don't copy my ideas if you don't want to break my heart😊)
@@grec.3577 That sounds like a very interesting story. As an ENTJ myself (and a creative writer as well), the only thing I would caution is to not make Alex seem too stereotypical, even for Alma's initial encounter with him. Add in some subtleties. Make sure you understand his character and his motives. For this, you'll need to better understand ENTJs, which I see that you are trying to do. :) Even when you better understand ENTJs, you'll need to ask yourself questions about Alex. Why is he the leader of the monsters? What motivated him to achieve that position? ENTJs don't go for leadership positions simply to have power and/or influence. There's always, always, always a reason behind it. Maybe it has to do with revenge? Maybe someone close to him was killed or assaulted by a regular human and that has haunted him and angered him ever since? Or maybe it has to do with something else. Whatever you decide, make sure you know his backstory and his motives. With that, I'm sure you'll be able to make him a relatable, believable character. :)
Also, one thing that might be helpful to you that has been helpful to me in trying to write an ISFP character (who's my polar opposite) in my stories is to consider all the deeply repressed aspects of your personality. The four letters of your personality are your preferences, not the only aspects of yourself that you use. So for me, when writing my ISFP character, I try to consider all of the things that I am deeply and very privately insecure about, things that relate to my personality non-preferences (Introversion, Sensing, Feeling, and Prospecting). Then I consider whether a particular insecurity of mine would be something my ISFP character would struggle with, but on a more conscious, surface-level sort of way, rather than subsurface for me. And in the case of my stories, my ISFP character has a fraternal twin brother who's an ENTJ, so their interactions highlight the polar-opposite aspects of their personalities quite nicely, especially since both characters get Point-of-View chapters. My ISFP character, especially when he's around his brother, is very insecure about how "useless" and emotionally "soft" he feels he comes across (regardless of the fact that he's far from being useless), but at the same time he's afraid of how he'll be received if he takes a more direct and assertive approach to people and life in general, especially when he sees his brother getting into trouble for doing exactly that. His ENTJ brother, on the other hand, is secretly afraid of ever coming across as "useless" or emotionally "soft" (for reasons that are slowly revealed throughout the story), and so he overcompensates and comes across like he always has his life perfectly put together (when in reality, that may or may not be true at any given point in time).
@@sabrinaclift1180 thank you soo much for your advices, I' m glad you find my story interesting!🥰
And of course Alex has a good motivation for what he is doing, I just didn't write it before because I thought the comment would have been too long and boring. You're right, he lost his parents in a human attack when he was younger and after that he had to take care not just of his little sisters and brother, but also of an entire kingdom ( his family was already powerful and he was taught to be a leader since he was a child).
He may seem cold but inside he really cares for his loved ones and friends and this is showed little by little in the story, when he interacts with them sometimes he may also be overprotective and result controlling, but that's just because he doesn't want to lose them.
Also, being used to have so much on his shoulders, he doesn't want to appear insecure or weak showing his feelings and I think it's cute how he tries to open up to Alma when he gets to know her.
My brother is an ENTJ and I being an INFP we grew up polar opposites. With age, our shared intuition has lead to some of the deepest conversation possible, and I am so proud to have him as my brother. As I develop a business based on strong ideals, I think he could be the best business partner as his strengths lie in every place mine are weak.
Why do I always find INFPs in ENTJ videos? Is this pairing so common?
@@elvillivle I think because ENTJs are kind of baffling to us? lol
I am an ENTJ and my brother had the disgrace to have me as his bigger sister, he is an INFP
oh, my I like him but some things he does just trigger me
And he gets triggered by me
When we were little, we played a lot, but I was really dictatorial and violent
I am also diagnosed as a high-functional psychopath
@@mushroomfog2509 Lol similar experience here but more mild. Luckily we're both intuitive and can usually see when we're being annoying AF to the other. I try to not be so... you know, around him lmao. Sometimes I don't think he sees his dictatorship and being a bad thing to me lmao
that's interesting! my brother is an INFJ and I'm an ENTJ female. we're almost opposites in everything, my strengths are his weaknesses and vice versa. I think the shared "N" connects us to another level and we learn a lot from each other
1:20 pfft nah man my room can get messy too
*Looks at closet that's organized by alphabetized colors*
Eveything the house is organized, but my room is my domain, that's the ONLY place I don't clean up in
Someone finally worded it. I’m an ENTJ-A female and I’ve always been so confused on why no one else thinks like me, it gets hella frustrating. I usually get pissed whenever someone uses their feelings to make decisions, and when someone just doesn’t do what they are expected to do. I fr need to master the art of patience a LOT more.
I think I realised something
People do not see the way we may see. But they do have a view point of their own. But they wont do what required for their future. Like they may think, I am going to decide to have best clothes etc or I feel this way or whatever. They choose on their values. They make choices looking at what in front of their eyes or in front of them. Not seeing outside themselves or how others will be affected. Like they go bankrupt or lose their place or dont save for rainy day.
So they may get in debt or do things against principles. Most time just have to wait until they hit end and are willing to learn. Cant fix that kind of thinking without them wanting change themselves.
I think in a way. Choice is important.
Maybe plan on them being slaves.
Not sure that a good summary.
I totally related to the feeling of high FI users being scary or uncomfortable to ENTJ. My daughter in an INFP and she totally frustrates me with her FI and only doing what "resonates" with her. She says my questions to her sound like interrogation and judgmental, when they are meant to be helpful. As a female ENTJ, I am not materialistic or overly pleasure indulgent, but I am somewhat compulsive t organizing, be it my finances, my computer, they way I stack the dishes in the sink, how my kitchen is set up for efficiency etc. I am not a neat freak, but I do hate disorganisation and inefficiency. And I dont sleep well. "Can I not turn my brain off, maybe?" LOL
Relate to this!
I like this comment, I am an ENTJ, I organize not because I like it but because it is more efficient.
@@Azulakayes Ditto, I had too much organizing, but if I dont do it, I cant get done what I want.
If it is that important to you do it all on your own rather than expecting others to do it
I'm living with my unhealthy INFP grandma and you can imagine how terrible it is.
Finally an intelligent and nuanced study of ENTJs. Thank you. I am a female ENTJ and while I don't much like the person you describe I think it's pretty accurate. I build teams, organise and lead people, and that strong dominant trait is one I've been working hard to adjust and soften (at least try to care) as I've become more mature: it's no use leading people over the top when you turn around to find no-one there because you've steamrollered them. Romantic attachments for us female ENTJs is a whole other kettle of stinky fish! Who would want to date Margaret Thatcher?
I (ENTJ) lived with an ENTJ woman for 7 years.. I like Margret Thatcher 😅 but it did not work out too well.. and we kinda scared everybody around us.
I've read a few comments from men happily married to ENTJ women!
I am also an ENTJ woman.
It fills me with hope. I read about the spouse wanting to be supportive of the ENTJs goals. I am very work focussed and love it, but I also want a family with the core of my being. I know I want to make it my mission to have a happy house where there is order, but also I want people to feel free and respected. I believe it's possible, with work and the right partner, WHY NOT? 💖🤓
I mean, who wouldn't want to be married to that....
Amazing, focussed mother, certainly loyal wife, who also has passions and hobbies and a great income?
You tell me the problem 😉
*Yes, I have the capacity to be blunt, emotionally dysregulated. I've been told I have laser beams, "which is a gift but, please keep them away from me" lol. So I know I have to work on softening and as I love people this is something I want to do. Therapy helps, as does all this content and conversation.
You don't like how ENTJ is described, but it's pretty accurate? So you don't like yourself?
ENTJs might be achievement-driven and apt to narcissism but they are not very possessive. They do not like to own things nearly as much as Si users. To them things and people are Se tools that only help them fulfill their vision. They like to explore tools moreso than the INTJ for which the vision is primary. Neither of them are possessive though, they don't cling to things.
true dat
I approve of this comment; How we utilize tools is what makes us who we are and periodic purging is a necessity because of our efficiency needs.
I disagree, was married to an ENTJ, and he told me I was his possession. He collected people, and he had no loyalty to me his wife.
@@more444store6 Sounds like ENTJ had little to do with his psychpathy...
@@more444store6 He didn't sound too healthy, seemingly. I see where he was coming from, maybe, as I used to have a crap ton of friends and I'd often want them to fully understand what I was saying, frequently. I've calmed down quite a bit, though, within the last ten years. I'm an ENTJ.
Executive summary: Ruthless, Pragmatic and Un-emotional + Charisma! SPOT ON!. ENTJ woman here! Thank you for the video :).
For some reason, dark ENTJ females are even more scary ~ Nathan
@@lovewho 🤔 Is that so? I wonder why? 😉 !!!!. For sure you know us well Nathan 😉.
@@lissa.5156 Well... I just imagine them being very seductive and dangerous, kind of an irresistible combo tbh ~ Nathan
@@lovewho Hahaha😉 Yes, have heard about that!😂 Hahaha! Let's say that we know what we want. The end justifies the means (we do not mean harm to others even when we read books like "The art of war"). Seductive in a classy way, we know our value and we take care of our physical appearance a lot - we know what we possess and we know how to use it. Ambitious and in a high Global job position; in a male dominant environment... which means you need to prove your value even harder. We do neglect ourselves a lot! e.g. at times I do not even notice I have not eaten the whole day. As a boss and family member, I am like a lioness defending and supporting my team/my family.... however, I do not demand anything that I do not demand to myself. We see emotions as our weakness therefore we repress them and we do not like sharing them with others (make us feel vulnerable...but does not mean that we don't have strong caring feelings). Personally, I do not tolerate people that blame others or play the victims and I do tend to be very harsh in this case.
As an ENTJ, I can say that I respect all personality types and I am fascinated by several of them... specially introverts (ISTPs and INTPs)😉 Regards from Germany.
Liss A. I’m here an ENTJ guy 😃
On ENTJ admitting they use people: why is it wrong? Do people simply prefer be useless, or just never admit they provide value for one another?
Stating a use for ENTJ is like establishing a boundary and a purpose, and ENTJs want to be used themselves too. If I say that 'you are a friend to come to for peace, rest and emotional recharge', then being dramatic is a guaranteed way to break the friendship due to a 'breach of contract'. We see everything as 'fit for purpose' or 'unfit for purpose', and, unfortunately, that extends beyond tools onto people, even if the intended use is strictly non-materialistic. If ENTJs is silent about your utility, it means you are simply not close enough.
This is spot on! I was unfortunately informed that this way of seeing/thinking about people is super narcissistic as we can easily replace people when they do not serve their purpose anymore, without any consideration for the other side.
This is the problem with language. Whether using someone is a problem or not pretty much entirely depends on how you define the word. You could argue we always use others when we interact with them, or you could argue the word "use" should only be applied to people when talking about exploitation or manipulation.
I would find it an insult to be of no use to people idk why but it just doesn’t sit well w me
Yes I totally agree! I am not proud of it, but it is who I am.... I have personally categorized the people in my (wide) circle based on what they could provide to me as a friend/acquaintance/connection...I also only try to cultivate relationships with people that I think could benefit me (skills, knowledge, resources) in some way. There are so many things that we could be doing right now, why waste time on people you know could bring you down.
I feel this comment so much.
Firstly, thank you. I know you made this one just for me. :D
Also, you're pretty spot on. I think ENTJs can do anything they want-- but, we lose interest in things once we get them or deem it to no longer be a challenge. Hopefully, one day, ENTJs realize that they're mostly cogs in a rat race and lean more toward humanitarian or inner-peace seeking initiatives.
I can also tell by the comments that people are jealous of ENTJs.
The logic is simple: Join us or die. We'll get you anything you want-- on our agenda and timeline. :D Hey, it'll be fun!
Well said!! ~ Nathan
like it
Awesome comment dude. The Join us or DIE 😂 . Is pretty spot on.
Why did that "Join us or die" really describe how I feel inside? 😂
There is an alternative; if they can prove their idea to be more efficient with logical reasoning we might join if it makes sense.
My enlightenment which reflects my ENTJ tendencies;
We live to hunt, pursue, and win. The prize is not what motivates us, our pleasure is the chase in of itself.
That hoodie is highly efficient. It can be used as a sweater and a rug
Lmaaao
My bff is an ENTJ and I really do love her but sometimes it gets a little... Yeah I'm an INFP so...
Gosh im an ENTJ too and my bff is an INFP and she's just .....
@@holojim692 😂
INFP here. You ENTJs are so darn scary!
how did that happen????😂
@@holojim692 lol same!
I love ENTJs, my best friend and my hubby are both ENTJs. I think they are the only other type I have this natural connection with (I’m INTJ). Although all the other NTs are really great, too. I just think we make a good team. The ENTJs give me the final push when I am overanalyzing and motivate me to actually start my plans. On the other side I help them to slow down to think before making important decisions - sometimes they are a bit impulsive.
INTJ/ENTJ is a great duo indeed! ~ Nathan
Love Who... Hey, thanks for your comment! Keep up the great work with your channel! Your videos are insightful and interesting to watch 😃
It's not a coincidence, that DIO, very likely an ENTJ, used a steamroller to flatten Jotaro. Very symbolic of course.
As an ENTJ my favourite saying is "Facts don't care about your feelings". Muwhaha!
Facts don't care about ENTJ's ego either lol
@@joon769 as an ENTJ, agree with this
as an INFJ with an ENTJ boyfriend, i can say this is so accurate. despite his near psychic ability to read my mind, he cannot read my feelings, and of course, i'm mostly made of feelings. if they are negative feelings about him, holy crap, do things get dark. he is also horrible at managing stress and uses alcohol to cope- so, you can imagine the destructive loop that can turn into. me trying to use reason, ie, drinking makes it worse, does not work in these times. he's irrational, and cannot accept that his feelings have gotten hold of him. it's exhausting, honestly. but other than that, he can be super sweet! such a total contradiction.
Aaah, I relate very hard as an INFP in a similar situation with an ENTJ bf also. They seem almost allergic to feelings lol so when they of course inevitably come up, either on my or his part or anyone else's for that matter, he most often really can't handle or even understand em, and can have no tact in expressing that or finding a way to cope. And he can be so dispassionate and brutally honest to the point of rudeness that it's draining sometimes.
However just as you said he also has a very sweet, caring & mushy side.... very funny and odd reconciling those 2 sides in 1 person😂 And what can I say, I still love him & we make it work and have lots of fun and great conversations when it's not a feelings-fest 🤷🏻♀️😊
I agree. ENTJs think they are so emotionally in control, but I have never met a personality type that is such a slave to their emotions. (I am an ENFP male who has dated more than one ENTJ female).
As an entj, i can read people's minds and emotions quite easily because I study people
@@nyx1781 Can relate, but on the other hand, I have no idea what my emotions are, unless I sit down and think about what could it be that I am feeling.
@@dawnriddler I believe that people who pay attention to other’s emotions (me, idk if it is you) on a daily basis will develop complex emotions like ‘oh I like it but I don’t but at the same time I’m excited to do it but I’m tired’. It makes sense for you to just think about your emotions because I do too.
ENTJs always joke about becoming a benevolent dictator haha
As an ENTJ, I often feel like I am too "good" for anyone but also too "bad" do deserve anyone.
Also, people feelings are confused me because It can't be measured with logic. I am trying so hard to understand people and myself, but sometimes people misunderstood me for being cold/heartless. In fact, I am put a lot of effort to think how people the way they are. Idk, I just wanna say please be patient on me. I don't meant to be mean, perhaps my mind just works differently with yours.
Ahhh, the default setting. ENTJs are very interesting for sure.
Unrelated, but I've been wanting to say:
Your videos are excellent; I love how you get to the point immediately and connect your thoughts.
I have serious reservations and criticisms about the power people lend to typology, but I appreciate that you don't astrologify it with a wishywashy approach, nor act prescriptively (i.e it really bothers me that there's so often very little distinction between preference and ability in the community).
This is precisely the kind of... compliment I love to hear. I'm always worried I'll wake up one day and be like, wait, why am I being so serious about this typology type stuff!? ~ Nathan
I second that sentiment, but lack the eloquence to articulate quite how perfect these videos are for me. Succinct, perfectly crafted diction, and excellent anecdotal INTP observations. ♥️
I’m an ENTJ, when I was younger, I deviled in the “dark side” by bulldozing anyone who was in my way. Caused more problems than it helped. Now I’m more balanced.
I see happiness of other people and the need for cooperation as a quantitative necessity. I know that does not sound much better, but fake it till you make it.
I can very much relate to this.
I took a course in leadership "resonant leadership through emotional intelligence" and it helped me so much to use /"fake" "Fe"
Actually it resonates with my values to be humane ... But i admit, when i tag someone as "chaos" I've no sympathy to bulldoze him away for the "greater good"
As an ENTJ I know I desperately need to work on fixing my sleep schedule and going to bed early, but I can't deal with that right now because there's bigger fish to fry.
ISTP here and learning about ENTJ makes me want to pair up with one to take over the world. They just can't tell me what to do... 😂
i have been waiting for you to release another ENTJ video! i like how you describe ENTJs, and i think most of them really spot on. I am ENTJ myself, so thank you for this!
Hey , a quick question, do you feel offended if someone didn't take your advice ? As an ENTP it make me kinda anxious when someone asks my advice, do you feel that advices forwarded to others are a big part of you ?
Apologies for neglecting ENTJs, often I end up start new series before finishing older ones! ~ Nathan
@@user-sf9yo5jq3f Hi there, from my experience it is really depends on the situation. But i could say, more mature ENTJs will give the freedom to people whether they want to take his/her advice or not.
But, younger ENTJs will definitely resent the people who asl their advise then not taking it. We are not offended, i believe. Just upset. Cause we believe that our advise sometimes is more effective and efficient. Seeing them/people taking long way instead of our 'simplfied' way really makes us annoyed.
I think this is quite represents how ENTJs feel about this overall
Interesting, i often give them my experience and examine the situation with them ,no definte advice at all ,thank you.
my older ENTJ brother is one of the most charismatic people I know. he's also the most loyal and supportive person I know but he does it his way 😆 and he is not comfortable with direct emotional expression. he shows how he cares in every decision he makes though ☺️ and his choices reveal how insightful and even sensitive his perception is. I'm usually the only one who clearly sees that through the Te.
I'm an INFJ with an ENFJ father, and this is the most accurate description I've seen someone else give. I really appreciate your insight into MBTI types,. Would you consider creating a series which offers insight into how 2 personality types interact with each other? Like one half being how they work well, one half being how they work against, and the ending the video with how they can improve and grow from one another? Something along those guidelines, would help out so many people. Thanks as always.
Is this a synopsis of me in my 20s? It took me thousands of dollars and years of therapy to manage my default. Being an Enneagram 3w4 made the narcissist tendencies even more prominent. I never understood it was hurting others and if I did, I saw it as a necessary sacrifice. Sadly, the payoff wasn’t worth the cost in the long term. I had to really develop a deep understanding and appreciation of emotional intelligence. - ENTJ 3w4
there is no such a thing called emotional intelligence. the "feeling" types made it up.......
Me, currently dating an ENTJ: *laughs* I'm in danger.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on when an INTJ and ENTJ collide
speaking from real life experience, we don't collide, actually we understand each other very well because we think alike, its just that the competition can get ugly sometimes, as long as both people are not corrupted they will enjoy challenging each other.
@@abadi173 same experience
When INTJ and ENTJ collide, then you get a bloodbath and there are no survivors, or collateral damage on both sides. There are no winners in war.
I think in a friendship it would be just seen as fun to have someone to spar with in life.
But when you get to romantic (speaking from experience as an INTJ Woman) the competitiveness of the ENTJ is too annoying for an INTJ to tolerate long term.
I was actually just looking at the differences of the 2 types intjsecrets.com/blog/intj-vs-entj/ because people think just because we have the same function stack that we are alike.
When you look closely we have some general similarities but the nuts and bolts of how we operate in the world are pretty different. That *need* an ENTJ has to be seen/heard and lauded for their accomplishments isn’t at all what a real INTJ would need or want (in fact it’s the opposite).
Also, ENTJs need to think they’re right *even when they’re sooooo wrong* I find the same with ENTPs so maybe it’s the Extroversion (the need to impose their ideas onto others) that an INTJ can’t stand. We like to be correct and there is a difference between being correct v right.
I find that the ENTJ gets jealous of the INTJ on some level (again it’s the competitiveness) and they find that what INTJs do naturally they have to work at to do which I think gets on their nerves.
Plus ENTJs have a level of insecurity about themselves that INTJs don’t have. Constantly having to sooth their egos would be a chore to an INTJ.
Epic battle, yet the police are not involved. Disturbing and creepy.
I'm an ENTJ and you've just explained a phenomenon I've never understood about other people. Thank you.
ENTJs are capable of loving selflessly. Obvisouly theres the dark sided ones (they wont give you a cookie even if you join them 😉) who only view people as tools... but theres ENTJs that see people as sacred (regardless of use).
Thank you! Pretty much what I expected. What I noticed with them is the lack of flexibility and at times completely clueless about their own flaws and how they are similar to those of others. Good thing that I am around 😁
Such mixed feelings on these guys. Admiration and frustration combined. I’m always confused when I hear that their golden match tends to be the INTP, I can’t imagine them liking each other that easily. Maybe because INTP is so laid back that ENTJ just steamrolls over them? -- ENTP
ENTJs despise INTP modes of operation yet they can't help but feel drawn to us because of our thinking and ideas. ENTJs talk to people looking for gold nuggets of information but when they come across an INTP it's like a goldmine with an endless supply. How can they turn that down? They can't. So they recruit us into being an advisor/researcher of sorts because they know that we go deeper and more thorough than anyone else.
purexed interesting! and what do you guys (INTPs) get out of it?
@@seventhsheaven INTP here. I'd like to add that ENTJs certainly do not steamroll us. From my experience at least, ENTJs are likely to highly respect a person that will challenge them when necessary, especially when there's proper reason to do so. I think we're likely to challenge at the appropriate times and we can always back up what we say with solid reasoning.
Most of the time though, we are of course laid back and allow the ENTJ to do whatever as long as it doesn't bother us. This is actually one of the things I like about them though. We can pass off decision-making to them when we're too lazy to do so, and can trust that they'll make really good choices on average lol. Also they seem oddly perceptive to me, and are more than interesting enough to be around.
Personally I really like ENTJs. I think you just have to get beyond the stage of proving to them that you're an equal, and then teaching them how to treat you like one. Otherwise they will indeed steamroll over you
INTP for ENTJ is a solid rock to rest one while we fly around crazy. We also come to them for advice and emotional release/ support because our level of Fi would match their Fe. Also, INTPs brains are inexhaustible and yes, encountering them is the same is coming across a goldmine. And last but not least, INTPs and INFPs are one of the few types with whom your entire date may consist of sleeping and not talking, or talking about something terribly deep yet detached from reality. That restores us
@@seventhsheaven We get guidance and general life coaching as well as just friendship. INTPs have so much information that we want to share and ENTJ is one of the few who actually listens and sees value in what we have to say. It's mutually refreshing for both types.
We are also both misfits in society. We both see the game for what it is. In order to cope, ENTJs choose to dominate and amass power and resources in order to bend society to their will. INTPs cope by ignoring society and doing the bare minimum in order to conserve energy for their own intellectual pursuits. ENTJs are not pleased by our decision to not play the game. They seek to improve us and get us in a better socio-economic standing. To them, we are an engima. "How can this brilliant guy be making less than 30k/year living in his parents basement? He's smarter than me yet he doesn't seem to care. What's going on?" They see potential in us that they can't let go to waste.
In a way, INTPs are the ultimate challenge for ENTJs. It is easier for ENTJs to make $1 million than it is to get an INTP to actually want to make $1 million.
I think a good/light eNTJ has a well developed introverted feeling(Fi).
People often tell me that they can tell when I'm actually angry because my emotions fully turn off, I say things fully how I see them and often tell people I don't talk to them because I feel like they're unless, and that's why no one else likes them either.
Catches people who don't know me well very off guard.
As a entj i cant appolagize for my harshness . I dont tolerate bullshit, irrationality and mediocore shit
There was a time with group thesis . In a group of seven two members and i do all the work the rest i let them play group as if they will get contribution cause their meaningless contribution is the cooking as the data and results are important (were in the culinary and culinary marketing department) in the end the Four who didnt comply with the thesis data and they are the same people who threw the leadership to me and i did give them something .. i took them out and they complaign the two members got the grades they deserve and i dont mind giving the professer the reason the four members got cut off and called me unfair along with the presentation defence the three of us only got the grades and the slackers got to do their own work Alone with minus ....to be honest that felt Satisfying They got what they deserved.... Got undermined alot till i show what i can do and do best i have no pitty for thoes who are lazy and uncooperative
ENTJs hate my wierd ways in doing things ( cleaning ,driving,fashion styles) , they always try to make me do " the right way " , at least they can keep up with my wierd arguments so they are better than ESTJs at least.
(ENTP)
Haha! ENTJ = slightly better than ESTJ, that's such an ENTP description ~ Nathan
Oh yes, clashes happen. When an ENTJ (or even an INFJ) tries to persuade someone with introverted feeling that said person's emotions and values are getting the best of them and is something they need to work on overcoming, yes, resentment does follow. This is definitely the case with INTJs who hold their values like a Samurai code of honor. They don't bend their principles or ethics on a whim or at leisure because that would be breaking them.
Warning to ENTJ and INTJs - the first impressions are always fun: oh, thank god there's finally someone I can talk to without sugarcoating things. Yes, a great friendship and team can come from this. But if it's a work-place, think of the Bolshevik revolution. Stalin (ENTJ) and how it ended for his comrades.
ENTJs have goals. IXTJs have systems. Together, they can achieve a lot and be of service to the world.
However,
If the ENTJ/INTJ isn't driven by the gluttonous ego/narcissism, need to achieve, then something great can come from this. Be wary of the red flags, though.
Great comment ~ Nathan
I am an I NFJ dating an ENTJ… I’m sure you can imagine that the debates we get in regarding humanity, well-being, and philosophy get intense! 😂
Try an intj. More compatible with an infj
I fail to see how’s that dark, and yes I am an ENTJ
Very interesting and very accurate for the ENTJs I know!
That's what I like to hear ~ Nathan
You sound pretty accurate. I would say that I have a higher functioning ENTJ version though it means I am acting with more awareness of those traits. The lower functioning ENTJs tend to run by their higher ego to the fault.
Spotlight on benevolance up in here. Good video as usual.
A group of us took the personality test, and one person was an ENTJ, I am INTJ. We became good friends for 15~20 years. "Irresistible force" met "immobile person", for a really good challenge. Dark and light sides to the ENTJ, it more or less fit. Really sad that both of us seemed to ask for something that just wasn't in the other.
Oh come now, it's not that ENTJs don't value other people's beliefs - it's just that you were hired to do a job and if you can't: you're gone. Why would I employ, or suffer under, someone who doesn't do their job? If my toaster doesn't toast - it's toast, because why would I keep a broken toaster? If you're hired to do a job, do it, or I'll find someone who can. If you _believe_ you should be paid for not doing any work: then I *believe* you should find somewhere else to work.
I’m not a workaholic unless I am obsessed with something. Well, currently I am obsessed with bodybuilding!
I love your fuzzy sweater it’s so adorable. I also love your content and you are so precious lol.
I find it funny to think that an ENTJ could be afraid of a little INFP like me. I think they'd perceive me as a little kid; Just doing things because I feel like doing them. They might even think I have some kind of social disorder because I refuse to just be in the here and now.
I find your comment cute - ENTJ
I think it’s better to have ENTJ’s as FRIENDS not as enemies XDD
last week i ended a 17 years friendship with an ENTJ, he become way too materialistic and envious of anyone he think is better then him including myself, putting down any achievements or new ideas others come up with or achieve, viewing them as inferior, i missed the moral person i used to know when we were kids, its sad how society can turn good people toxic in a short period of time, the damn human hierarchy took another piece of my heart..... i wish he resisted that hierarchy abit..
To me, the quintessential ENTJ is the mob boss, Tony Soprano, from the HBO TV series, 'The Sopranos.'
Just repeat what you just said.
What you said it sound so much like ESTJ ... maybe u didnt realized ur friend is ESTJ
All of this is so true! Thank you for the advice
-entj
One INFP's perspective: the main problem I see with Te is that, because it's focused on the creation of systems and organization of things, it sometimes will fail to consider, and to flat-out reject perfectly true, factual information because the system they've built has no place for that fact in it, or because the fact/truth was obtained in a manner not conforming to the system. That to me is a good way of distinguishing between mature XXTJs and immature ones. Mature XXTJs will modify their systems more and more over time as more and more new facts are revealed to them, so there's a home for every fact, immature ones will refuse to do this and pay a high cost. In the same way we say "facts don't care about your feelings", facts don't care about your systems either, something that XXTJs occasionally need to be reminded of.
Very insightful. Although unhealthy, immature ones will go nuts at your comment lol
@@joon769 fortunately, no one cares what immature ENTJs think. 😼
Knowing that ENTJs fear me brings me peace. Now to watch some Aggretsuko ✨🧚🏻♀️
As an ENFP male that was in a relationship with an ENTJ female , her weakly developed introverted feeling was always at the root of of our issues. It didn't help that I was more of the provider role and my NE drove her Te/Ni insane with my constant pursuit of possibilities, but it was definitely my strong Fi vs her weak Fi that was the ultimate undoing. She never wanted to discuss feelings, especially mine, and I could never move on unless I felt like I was being heard and my feelings were validated which basically lead to us going in circles with her withdrawing and me demanding that I am heard. From my experience and my own personal observations with myself is that ENFPs hate being dominated or bullied more than anything. We ENFPs can also be quite the bullies when we feel we are being dominated. It is a myth that ENFPs are happy-go-lucky, if we feel we are being mistreated we will use our Ne-Fi as a weapon and we know exactly what cuts the deepest. I think ENTJs aren't used to being around an equal when it comes to dominant personalities, and when it comes to relationships, I think ENFPs naturally fill that dominant role over the ENTJ, which for them is unsettling. I really do still feel that ENFP + ENTJ is a great match if the ENTJ can develop and embrace Fi, and the ENFP can realize that the ENTJs language of love is vastly different from theirs. I constantly would become unraveled because when she would be in Te-Ni goal mode, I was so out of sight out of mind and I felt unwanted and discarded. It always felt like I had to beg for even a morsel of attention from her, which from any other personality type would be a major red flag, but for ENTJs, you almost become an extension of them so finishing tasks and goals is showing the ultimate form of love and care. It took me forever to accept that and give the ENTJ space to let the Te-Ni pursuits run their course so they can then feel satisfied enough so they can relax and show love. And I agree with the other comments here. ENTJs are very mushy if you can break down all of their walls. The emotional connection I have with ENTJs is unmatched, maybe because it takes so much damn work to get there and alas I think ENFPs are addicted with breaking down walls and solving the emotional puzzles.
I’m an ENTJ female, currently with an ENFP male. This was the crux of a lot of our problems in the beginning stages - we got over that stage with a lot of work. Fast forward, and for some reason I now find myself spiralling emotionally ie, I have all these feelings and can’t seem to find an opportunity to air them out and be taken seriously. It seems as though every time I try, my ENFP just feels like he has to take on more responsibility for me (which is not my intention, I just want to discuss things together). If you don’t mind me asking, how long were you two together? Would you mind if I got in touch with you to pick your brain a little?
my ENTJ father married an ISFJ and had ENTP and INFP daughters - it's never boring
Thank you man I really enjoy your videos 🤍🤍
Thank you! ~ Nathan
Your bit of Fi resonated with me, thanks. -ENTJ
Irrationality is the root of evil. Sentiment isn't a reason by itself. Disregarding it entirely might be an over correction, but valuing it over things being functional, or making sense, is just madness.
This explains why I want to conquer the world. Thanks
Make some videos where you explain the different cognitive functions and how they manifest. So that there is a video for Introverted Feeling, for example. I think a lot of people really want to understand these but don't know where to look.
Perfectly describes a friend of mine. Not always easy to deal with him (as an INFJ). :)
Whenever i take a test, I always get a result of ENTJ and INTJ. So I am here to check if which is applicable to me.
We finally typed my middle sister and she’s an Entj! It all makes sense now lol
ENTJ is really the dark side of INTJs.
And this is why I craved for you so much.
Some comments have made comparisons between intjs and entjs, and their compatibility. Emotionally, as lovers or friends, I believe they would not be most suitable, but as partners, business wise, they may be the most dynamic and unapologetically accomplished pair. An intj will not be able to function underneath the entj and vice versa, but instead they would be compatible as independent leaders who work collaboratively.
Since both function logically, an entj may be enamored by the uniqueness of the introverted thinker, who's unorthodox conclusions follow a logical process. It is highly likely that in a setting where both are equals, the entj will be forced to relinquish their control, once they understand that the only way to receive the ultimate results from the intj is to allow them to explore their talents to the fullest degree. The entj must accept that their influence will not add, but rather diminish an intj's talent to express themselves. This benefits the entj, who, despite their need for authority, will care more about accomplishing their goals successfully. This is also beneficial if the entj and intj have different skill sets and responsibilities.
People don't like me.....still they follow me because everyone know I am always right. (This is what I think about myself)
Can relate to the crashing, I can be relentless and over do it while neglecting my health such as missing meals, lacking sleep and then I crash and burn lol I then pick up the pieces focus on my health until I dive into the next project... repeat >_
"Warm and cuddly"......only to my mother.
As an ENTJ, I can attest to the depth of this brsakdown. Great work mate
The dark side of the ENTJ?! I dare say you're probably going to have to make a video called 'The Light Side of the ENTJ'. There must be some fluffy-kittenness down in there somewhere.
Thank you for this video. Needed it.
I'm an INFP who knows an ENTJ. The dynamics... are...
OK, for once I'm at a loss for words.
There's this persistent feeling of doom on my part, but a sense of foreboding existential crisis is not exactly foreign to a fr INFP. It just feels like I could get cut from the deal (friendship) at anytime. But, I've been transparent about it, so somehow it hasn't happened yet, and of course the ENTJ says it won't (tho not so sure I believe him, don't know why... ).
We both love the charisma... ENTJs do it in a more... how do you explain this?... way. It's like sparks flying off it charisma. INFP's charisma tends to be cute, manifests from a place of being genuine, transcendent, "in the world, but not of it"... except for the trashy ones, and I'm not even sure they're really INFPs. But, ENTJ charisma is not so much transcendent, but definitely not of this world!
Idk why I'm saying all this except to say, there's some commonality (maybe the Fi and Te specifically) where we obviously see the other as dubious, suspect, completely our undoing... but we get each other in this little elitist way and it carries on. Plus, we live for progression, but go about it in totally different ways.
Also, I think I get him more than he gets me which is funny.
It's a fascinating duo. If both parties can get along with each other and compensate for each others weaknesses then it can be an amazing team ~ Nathan
@@lovewho, I'm guessing you don't believe in astrology. But, I've found the profiles (also planting by the signs of the moon) to be useful. I'll just add this: he's a Libra, and I'm an Aries. This makes us polar opposites and the dynamic accentuates the mental sideways glances and stalemates. And yes, as you said with this combination of types, in terms of astrology, the same holds true: if we can get along and compensate for each other's weaknesses, yes, the results could be amazing, indeed. Opposites in astrology complement each other (if they're opposite genders), but they can also get pretty fussy with one another, too. Nothing's perfect (when it comes to earthly relationships), I guess.
I saw this particular cartoon snippet in an MBTI vine compilation once. They had Tom labeled as an ENTJ, and the girl, an INFP. It's accurate.
czcams.com/video/x8HADuSjypo/video.html
They can be narcissistic, they are so charming, I am attracted to one immediately, but they have si trickster, so they have no loyalty and they will have sex with your best friend(s), or who ever they want. They are the best cheaters in the world. They go to a lot of "meetings." They enjoy that they are controlling us.
As a former ENFP, ENFJ and now current ENTJ, ID say this video best described me when I first switched personality types. I was moody, irrationally self-tethered to achievement and order. Praise God that was a phase that wore off as I became more comfortable with my type and began to understand it, often through content like this. Now I’d say I hardly relate to any of the “dark” aspects of this personality type because I’ve determined at least in part what it means to be a healthy type and how to use my energy and need to organize to help others solve their problems and confront other types who attempt to take advantage of another’s kindly nature to get what they want. Thank you for these videos, you’re part of the reason I can now confidently consider myself on the healthy side of being an ENTJ.
You are clever, by far! I think you could rule the world. xoxo a fan from Ohio
I'll put you in a position of power when I get there ~ Nathan
@@lovewho Bwahaha! I love it.
Great Entj leaders (not at a moral standpoint) Mao Zedong (China), Napoleon Bonaparte (France), Franklin Delano Roosevelt (America), and Siad Barre (Somalia). With the exception of FDR, these leaders ambitions and narcissism lead them to their demise.
I love you for doing this. It has helped me understand things I've struggled with for years. Literally. Close resemblance to an INFJ here: being considerate towards a certain ENTJ is no longer going to block my way to happiness. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
The problem is... this guy -> Fi 🤣
I'm curious about how Fi inferior vs Fi PoLR looks with an ESTP/ENTJ! ~ Nathan
@@lovewho it looks to me like I ESTPs morals and principles are pretty much non-existent for as long as the 'math' works out and others like their decision. They jump from field to field never knowing what they like now or God for I'd if they'd like it 10 years down the line (and never settling down one thing either). For ENTJs, their values and feelings are nonexistent until you trip over them and then they are one giant mess accusing others of being mean and cruel to them
@M Rod I wrote a long comment on the most effective way to hurt an ENTJ and then erased it for the sake of other ENTJs. In short, we do have a very fragile inner world of feelings that we are incapable of protecting adequately or even realising where our own soft spots are. Just do not try to 'build us up' the ESTP way or accommodate to us the INFJ way (sorry I'm better not give specifics).
@M Rod thanks for your reply :)
ENTJ & INTP's mastery of, attitude and sensitivity to feelings is at the exact same level, but with introversion - extraversion reversed. Same egg shells and sensitivity, but pointing inwards, and same unawareness/push back outwards. And while you rely on your own logical evaluation of how everyone feels and what other people value, I rely on external logical/factual evaluation of how I feel and value myself. In the hands of someone with Ti/Fe as their middle functions ENTJs are, therefore, rather naked. I hope it helps and that's a clear enough statement to build upon without blurting out too much... have a good day M Rod :)
@M Rod You and Margot are right about ENTJs and you are right about INTPs. ENTJs do shield themselves from their feelings but are surprisingly soft on the inside. As an INTP most of the time I don't have a clue what I'm feeling: I only see and care about other people's feelings. And my lack of attunement with my body doesn't help matters as it's not shouting out how I'm reacting physically. It's almost as if my inner feelings about what I need aren't valid anyway.
Once, my finger almost got cut off when I was working, so I worked the rest of my shift and then went to the hospital. Taking care of our bodies... lol... what the hell does that look like??
Brilliant! Totally describes my ENTJ friend yet........she has a big Fi ideal that get's hammered on everyone with that Te! How to drive an ENTJ homicidal? Make them partner with an intuitive dominant.......an Ne dominant.
Haha love it! ~ Nathan
lucy lucy 😂
I kinda felt that you painted me as a person who doesn’t have any values (?????) but I get it somehow since I can be ruthless, even cold sometimes, but I do like taking other people’s feelings into account
Another great video
Thank you! ~ Nathan
Love the way you described ENTJs fear of Introverted Feeling!
Our dark side comes out when everything gets out of control or when we are at the mercy of our feelings. Because feelings is the world we simply don't understand.
And what good does irrational emotional world bring anyway? Nothing.... Ultimately feelers have to be rational too to make better decisions in life. We Thinkers are just already there without wasting any time
Period
I had an ENTJ boyfriend over 15+yrs ago and I can say from experience because we still occasionally speak to each other that ENTJs need to superimpose themselves onto the world is obnoxious to an INTJ over time.
ENTJs have a competitiveness and a latent jealousy about themselves when they encounter a type as resourceful if not more so than themselves. They like to associate themselves with people they believe are on *THEIR* level from a superficial point of view which an INTJ abhors.
I think ENTJs secretly admire the INTJs ability to not give a f*ck and truly mean it when it comes to expectations. We only care about OUR expectations of ourselves (which are really high and have their own set of problems when they go off the rails) but we aren’t beholden to what the world thinks we ought to be.
INTJs over time can reach our Fi better and become more aware of ourselves and in touch with how we feel and use those principles to guide us to our goals of impacting the world around us.
For ENTJ it’s like they try to do this but just always seem to fall just shy of reaching their Fi so they seem stuck in this space of seeing achievements as emotional harmony for themselves but they of course are never satisfied because they’re using the outside world to try and calm their inner self so they’re never satisfied and thus can be hard to take for those around them.
Now, I realized it was ultimately best we didn’t end up together. He’s a good person on the whole but that ENTJness would have driven me up a wall in the long run.
Interesting! ~ Nathan
@Mark Rodriguez soft intj...
As an ENTJ, didn't read too long. Be more efficient to express your jealousy and complaints.
i had to learn empathy and expressions of it bahaha (rather than wit, which comes naturally to me)
wow. you just blew my mind in articulating this ...it is so true, I am ENTJ and most of my loved ones are introverted thinkers and it is SCARY bc in my mind it seems to slow down or prevent change seemingly. I never could articulate it like this though. thanks
So accurate 😂 i have a colleague Entj, and she is a very blunt steamroller. She can be charming and charismatic though. Super organized, workaholic, independent. And her husband is an Intj, so after like 30 years of marriage, that seems to be the perfect match. I personally (infj) do not feel too comfortable around Entjs, feels like swimming in a shark tank.
I'm an ENTJ, and feel very connected to INTJs.
Great insight! I do have to differ on a point though. They’re goal ORIENTED but not goal “orientated”. 😉
British vs American grammar.
Grammar war officially declared ~ Nathan
Well done. I am anxiously awaiting an ESTP Dark Side video. I an INFJ, who perhaps has a stronger than average Ni-TI mechanism. I am studying how to make workplace coalitions successful in the face of ENTJ and ESTP leaders who have both gone dark. This video gave me ideas on how to bring the ENTJ back from the abyss. I am out of ideas with the ESTP. Would you help me? What ideas do you have?. When will you upload an ESTP Dark side video?
Get the ENTJ in solitude and tell them the weakness/end of their logic. Hut you have to have another way out!
You might just get a promotion.lol
@@gaelntore4758 Agreed. I will do so, as soon as my exit strategy is complete - just in case he turns on me instead of promoting me.
I'll make sure to upload that one eventually! ~ Nathan
Love Who Thank you. I will wait patiently.
as an ENTJ in their default state who was in overdrive in their Te/Se for the last 2 years...
- I'm facing the terrifying truth of ..."if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you", which is totally about encountering your long neglected Fi;
- not unhealthy domination over crowds, but rather an escape into isolation as much as practical. I am so moved by others yet exhausted from Te/Se that the only salvation from complete mental breakdown is attempting (unsuccessfully) to avoid any personal interaction. Otherwise it feels like risking to shatter your already empty glass of 'humanness' and physical resources;
- being on the verge of 'vomiting out' all of the unprocessed Se I've accumulated over the years yet being unable to stop stacking up even more knowledge, more novel experience, more events, more more more, which is like administering cocaine into someone in a state of overdose from meth.
- being mentally and physically aged to what feels like an extra decade on top.
On that wonderful upbeat note, I have to say I'm glad to be crashing from that overdrive because finally I can see how crazy and delusional I am. The fact I'm unable to stop that Te/Se engine as yet is another matter, but it is work in progress
goosebumps. Very insightful :)
I am an ENTJ and i will say , i feel sad and fearful i do have meltdowns but i shut them into one room in my brain lock it up so that the goal i have set can be achieved and time is not wasted
My frnds often tell me that its ok to cry or feel tired but that is what scares me cuz that may make me weak
Also i do understand others feelings but to get something u want you , gotta keep it aside you cannot use it as an excuse
ENTJs would make a great master/slave BDSM relation dominant. i kinda like that? am i weird? i am an INTP
It depends on that how you looks ;)
You aren’t weird. I believe me to be an ENTJ after research and I have been placed in a domina role frequently. It’s just natural. I enjoy it, but these leadership roles find me. I’m perhaps an INTJ since I’m a somewhat reluctant leader (it finds me or I seem to feel the need to take over because of organizational incompetence). Need more information though. I think that ENTJ is typically a firm but fair ruler / dominant. I think they would be ideal in that situation. Unless unhealthy.
Its nice to learn your weaknesses and improve on them to enhance efficiency. Less soft spots better chances of winning.
First person I think of when it comes to ENTJ is radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh.
Interesting! I’ll have to look into him more ~ Nathan