WHO'S THE BEST MODERN HORIZON'S 3 COMMANDER IN cEDH - NADU vs PLHAGE vs IMSKIR vs THE NECROBLOOM
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
- This week we're finding out which commander from Modern horizons 3 is best in cEDH
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I built Nadu the day it was spoiled. 100% cEDH. Rivals Kinnan for best simic commander ever.
Hi Kibler!
For sure, the best two simic commanders, I'm not sure if Nadu's better than Kinnan at the moment. we will have to wait for more tournaments
@@garryparks9866 I feel that the fact Kinnan is so "Kinnan" focused compared to Nadu, who gives value to every single creature and can give you the cards you need and played it the turn you get it because the lands enter untapped is pretty busted. And he has synergy with Landfall, and the best colors for ramp, the best access to protection, and he is a 3/4, so you can't just Bolt him to death.
I don't think it rivals Kinnan. I've never seen Kinnan be able to do what Nadu has. Kinnan is a thing of the past.
It a good thing it don’t have the extra color
This does feel a little “Hydrogen Bomb vs 3 Coughing Babies.”
This made me Fuckin snort laugh 😂
Bahahah
I think Necrobloom can be legit, but the other two... nah.
Imskir is basically a 2 mana draw spell in the command zone, which you can clone repeatedly. Necrobloom needs a lot of iteration before the correct shell is assembled I think, and Phlage is just happy to be there.
Best comment
"And Cam is playing Nadu - the commander WotC forgot to test" I snorted
“This is worse than Krark and Sakashima” 😂
Nadu, I feel is 100% a kill on sight, the value potential per turn is insane.
I disagree, the "Equip:0" cards are the kill on sight. Those are what generate the value, without those Nafu gets stuck spinning its wheels
@@mrgarneau4895as well as the token generators, but generally I would agree that the equipment is the easiest way to pop off
@@billsmafia0566 very true, killing the token generators can also leave Nadu with nothing to do.
@@mrgarneau4895 I agree with that as well. The problem being artifact removal isn't nearly as common as creature removal in cEDH.
Nadu has to be kill on sight surely? The value it still generates even without the artifacts is insane.
Can we all agree that Cams always gets the busted freaking storm decks to play please?
His narration of what he's doing is so hilarious.
I think there's a little problem, the one ring gives protection from everything, and endurance is a targeted ETB, so after playing the ring, Cam shouldn't be able to use endurance to recycle his graveyard over and over.
Good catch.
Nice find, another option would be to use eternal witness to loop his noxious revival though and make the same loop that way. Endurance is not needed for nadu to get the dub here.
@@hellproof2379 thanks
@@hv7920or using displacer to reset nadu all over again right. Its functionally infinite from that point with his board state.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing lol
lol nadu out here making Stella look like a precon😂
“Well I had to discard scute swarm” :(
someone with my same first and last name became a $50 patron and scared me for a sec
The line was scooping on turn one for the next game
(Elden ring theme plays during Nadu solitaire)
Dylan and Cam are correct that the thing that's frustrating about Nadu even in CEDH is that it's not, technically, a deterministic loop, because you could always theoretically miss 30 lands in a row, so you have to go through every single trigger, which is a pain in the keister for everybody involved, and infinite mana doesn't solve this problem the way it does for Kinnan.
Realistically, this isn't likely to happen once you have a single Scute Swarm or Nantuko, especially if you can blink the bird, which means that it's almost always over, but isn't actually over, so you just have to have someone go through every trigger.
The way I've been shortcutting it is to first see if anybody thinks they'll have responses for the next round of Naduery, then if nobody does reveal 2 cards for every potential Nadu trigger at once, because even though it's technically less correct in terms of winning than going through every trigger, it's a fairly minor difference for the Nadu player. The problem of course, is that I might wanna take action against the Nadu player based on what they reveal.
I don't think Nadu is too strong, this is CEDH and he requires one of only 3 cards ever printed (Greaves, Shuko, and Umbral Mantle) to actually hit his loop. But it MIGHT start to get too annoying for even CEDH.
Even as a combo player and think doing broken, cool stuff is awesome, and it's cEDH... it's annoying and boring. It even seems annoying for the Nadu player.
I'm with you..I think it rather play Godo again before suffering thru this in a tournament setting
I also think that Nadu has a lot of brewer advantage right now, and that while the deck will be competitive, I don’t see it being a top 10, or maybe even top 20 commander in a few months. All lists that are this commander reliant struggle to top large tournaments
The way to shortcut are copy effects. Cam did for example reveal a Flesh Duplicate. So with about 15 creatures he could reveal 30 cards.
@@firefighter0ger809cloning Nadu doesn’t solve the nondeterministic issue the deck has.
It’s like krarkashima. Sure, you may have 5 krarks and a thumb, but there’s always the chance you flip 10 tails in a row.
You can’t shortcut something if there’s only a 99.9% chance. The .1% chance to flop still exists.
The first time I saw Nadu was in a meme with a pic of the card and it said "I may have Simic value engine a little too hard"
Can't target yourself with Endurance while you have Protection from everything (One Ring cast).
With the loop presented, he could have just used noxious revival in place of endurance. You're right but it didn't functionally change the win
22:48 Molten duplication is *almost* always a better card than twinflame, however vs dauntless dismantler all your dualcasters enter tapped because they're artifacts. Which also makes it worse if someone is able to flash in a dockside with borne upon a wind.
Surprised the nadu list wasnt just running thassa's oracle since it empties the library
No point in running it if you can win without it
Oracle is useless. It's a dead card.
Love getting to see brews with the new cards. Necrobloom feels like the deck the cEDH player brings as their casual deck.
Also, Nadu is terrifying. It may be the best UG commander now.
I love the erwin reference. Its literally the hardest speech in all of anime.
Flock "be honest are we riding to our deaths"
Erwin "thats correct"
Flock "then its doesnt matter if we follow them, we could disobey your orders and it would make a difference"
Everything that you thought had meaning: every hope, dream, or moment of happiness. None of it matters as you lie bleeding out on the battlefield. None of it changes what a speeding rock does to a body, we all die. But does that mean our lives are meaningless? Does that mean that there was no point in our being born? Would you say that of our slain comrades? What about their lives? Were they meaningless
They were not! Their memory serves as an example to us all! The courageous fallen! The anguished fallen! Their lives have meaning because we the living refuse to forget them! And as we ride to certain death, we trust our successors to do the same for us! Because my soldiers do not buckle or yield when faced with the cruelty of this world! My soldiers push forward! My soldiers scream out! My soldiers RAAAAAGE!
Gotta remember there was no other blue at the table. So Nadu would in theory be able to be kept in check a little more
i would argue all Nadu needs is a way to continually target it's stuff and it just wins. For now, i'm not sure how many cards enable the strat but right now i can only think of the two free equip equipment. i know there are others including the many blue creatures and things that can be tapped to untap target thing.
@@MageSkeleton what are you talking about? That has nothing to do with what I said
Altar of the brood kind of sounds like a good include for Nadu imo.
I think it is just unnecessary. It is just a dead card until you start storming off, at which point there are plenty of other ways to win.
You can't ever cast it unless you go infinite and win that turn (because milling your opponents will help them with any graveyard strats and fuel Breach and Meme Bet) and as far as wincons go this is just really, really bad.
The dead doesn't really need any dead cards whatsoever to win the game, especially not Altar of the Brood.
@InmAncalagon Yeah, filling someone's graveyard for them to go "borne upon the wind, win on top of you, GG." Is a very real thing
played against nadu once already in a casual game, turn 1 sol ring into greaves, turn 2 nadu. a couple turns down the road they wiff 11 nadu triggers in a row (no lands) and then lose the game the following turn. thats what it takes for this deck to lose in a casual game
Sol ring, greaves is an insane start for any deck though
@@joshholmes1372 i am very aware of that, but i think this commander is one of if not the best abusers of any early lead
@joshholmes1372
The fact that it still required them to wiff 11 triggers in a row to still lose is extremely concerning.
There's a decent chance this card will get banned for a similar reason as to why Golos and friends were banned. Excessively long turns, repetitive play patterns, and less diversity in deckbuilding.
Love how Cam always call elvish spirit guide for simian spirit guide with no exceptions😂
Not countering a turn 1 sol ring against the deck that has a bunch of colorless things is wild. I know Cam said he regretted it but damn.
You have to also consider the lack of interaction, Cam playing Nadu being the only blue deck and the boros deck potentially leaning on it's commander too much as it's form of "control" let it down. The necrobloom though i feel has no excuse.
Cam, the thing you could have done to improve your lines to optimize Nadu was to have Bestowed Sprongheart Nantuko onto the animated Mishra’s Factory so that you had the option to pay {1}{G} on the landfall trigger to make a new token of a “non-animated” Mishra’s Factory that would trigger the landfall be able to animate for more Nadu triggers.
@playtowin
Cam i would suggest to put "venerated rotpriest" in the deck. This way you don't have to win by combat DMG. You just build your huge board, reset Nadu with displacer kitten and then you start targeting all of your creature with those 1 mana spells (don't remember the name) and give poison counter
Why? Why play a useless card just to have an alternate in wincon?
He won without it though? Putting a bad card in your deck just to win the game isn’t good. Rotpriest would be dead in any opening hand and as any draw in the earlygame. The only slightly good part about it is that its a cheap creature to trigger Nadu on, but thats pretty unnecessary when you could just play a manadork instead
Agreed, I'm running Rotpriest in my Nadu list. Sea King's Blessing and Sylvan Paradise are the 1 mana instant speed target spells you were talking about. What's nice is if someone has One Ring protection, you can cast them on their upkeep with Rotpriest out and get the kill then with poison. Also these other replies are crazy... Why is Thassa's Oracle an alternate win con in any deck??? because it wins games. Rotpriest does the same thing. I like the tech.
@@EvanBenz you do realise not many tier 1 nonblack decks run oracle right? Because there are ways to win without it? Dargo thrasios for instance doesnt run oracle despite being able to easily draw through its whole deck (like nadu) because it has a litany of other ways to win. CEDH is about minimising dead cards so that every hand you have is as optimal as possible, and both rotpriest AND oracle both make hands suboptimal. Why win with either of those when you can deck your opponent or win through combat damage without them?
Also theres a difference between wincon and alternate wincon. Rotpriest is not an ‘alternate wincon’ it is an OUTLET for your main combo to win. That is exactly why it is unnecessary. If you’re already drawing your entire deck, you don’t need rotpriest as an outlet. There are other ways to win (both of which Cal showcased, either a big finale - which he couldn’t as he made a mistake by attacking but he did mention - or by decking the opponent) you don’t need rotpriest.
Thassas oracle is an ALTERNATE wincon only in black decks that run consultation for an easy 2 card win. Otherwise its just an outlet to win the game, but barely ANY optimised nonblack decklists run oracle just in the 99 as an outlet to win. Cause they can win in other ways.
@@TonyScimeca If the thought process is "why play a[n otherwise] useless card" , then you wouldn't run half the stuff you do run in Nadu. Also, regarding Cam's win (a point brought up by another commenter), he did a pretty big misplay here with targeting himself with Endurance after he played TOR the same turn, so I'm not sure whether I'd take this win at face value. I've seen Rotpriest in a Nadu deck in action, it's pretty good. Not the only way you can win with him, sure, but a fairly reliable post-combat win con. I will say I like the Coliseum loop too though.
I was waiting for a new video 🙏🏻
I've been waiting for this episode, let's go
That little moment where Dylan mentions Tyler's lonesome single land cracked me up lol
Yeah, non-deterministic combos like Nadu suck that they actually have to be played out, BUT it does become deterministic as soon as you have enough triggers on the board to equal your deck size, or at the very least at that point you can just pick up your deck and show your line for winning like you can with many deterministic combos.
Surprised to see Tyler not on the Nadu. He's the Simic king with his Kinnan.
Great vid.
Love the double features
I really, really like how you set up the music to get Pepe when he says can’t win yet, can’t I?
Cam should never have been able to target himself with Endurance in the First game. He gave himself protection from everything when he cast The One Ring.
00:28 - "The Commander WOTC forgot to test" caught me off guard xD
Hey guys, love the show. One question: do you have any place you would recommend getting proxies from?
loving these two games video
As someone who fell in love with Nadu since spoiled I ate good this week with Cam winning that first game and watching Commander Vs. earlier this week where Corey just popped off turn four. Was looking at your list to see anything you were doing as opposed to what I have been brainstorming and any thoughts on including Bristly Bill in your 99? Been using that in Brawl and my rough draft and it honestly does work with how consistent lands come into play.
Hats off to whomever had to edit this 🫡
I'm pretty sure there's an easier line that gets unlocked as soon as you have Spellseeker and Cradle, assuming you have like 12 mana but cradle makes it a lot easier. Spellseeker can go get snap, which can target your spellseeker, giving a Nadu trigger and untapping cradle and another land that taps for blue. Assuming cradle makes enough, and you have 10 mana right now, you can then recast the spellseeker to go get finale. Finale for 5 to get eternal witness to get back your snap, and then recast your snap on eternal witness, triggering nadu again. Recast eternal witness, putting snap back in hand. So long as your cradle is making 5 or more mana, this gets you infinite green and infinite nadu triggers. With this you put your whole deck in your hand, make infinite mana, and can cobble together whatever win still works.
Endurance is a clean line so long as you don't have One Ring protection. Kitten also should work tho assuming you have a non-phimage copy creature somewhere in deck. Cast snap targeting the real e wit and using the kitten trigger to flicker the copy, returning noxious revival to hand. Casting the e wit gets back the snap and noxious lets you put the cephalid back on top for nadu to put back onto the battlefield for more milling.
Simic sure does make win lines unnecessarily complicated, huh?
I notice in the first game, Cam wins through a cephalid loop, but necrobloom plays Ulamog? So he'd have to wait out the turn for that deck specifically
Kitten + One Ring + Hullbreaker + 0 cost mana rocks can just draw your whole library. Then you can Savor the Moment if you’ve already gone to combat and Finale next turn. This one is deterministic.
YEAH NEW VID. btw what do you guys use to proxy cards??
Nice seeing Nadu in action!
If for whatever reason you don't have access to Finale of Devastation, there is a unique (if convoluted) way to win through combat with Nadu. It's the following: Draw your deck, like you just did, cast Kitten + EWit + Lotus Petal + Jeweled Lotus for infinite colored mana. Cast Lightning greaves, cast Unctus, giving artifact creatures +1/+1. Cast Phyrexian Metamorph without copying anything, keeping it alive due to Unctus. Bestow Nantuko on the metamorph, play a land and copy the Phyrexian, entering the battlefield as a copy of Greaves. Repeat a few times to have as many hasty creatures as you can, and swing for the win. With what? With Bristly Bill, who makes your creatures infinitely big AND synergizes with the commander :D
edit: fixed the infinite mana line to adapt to your deck
He already forgot about the Field of the Dead
You could also add aluren in the deck, make it when you draw ur low cmc creatures u can then cast them all, but if you add aether adept or man-o-war it becomes a two cards combo with your commander because you can have it etb target itself and trigger nadu you do this and draw your library then play thassa and win
Aluren is symmetrical so opens you up to responses
@@franslair2199 yeah but this is assuming you dont have protection in your hand, you can counter whatever creature they put out to stop you which i cant think of any because nadu doesnt draw the card so doesn’t trigger bow master and the only other creature i can think of is spellskite. Also cam is playing dosan which would stop people from interacting on your turn, and if you get silenced you can still win during the next person’s upkeep. I personally think nadu is the best aluren commander.
Love the name for the Nadu deck 😂
7:37 spellseeker grabs crop rotation here and gets field of the dead. You are then getting 2 creatures per iteration and are much closer to deterministic. You also have the mass target spell and can target your whole board and resolve 20+ triggers without moving equipment.
Conversely, you could grab worldly tutor; get dosan and your opponents are locked out minus channel cards.
I really hope to one day have a necrobloom deck it looks so fun
Also, importantly for the cephalid coliseum loop, you can’t evoke endurance cause you’ll run out of green cards to pitch to it, but you can just pongify in response to the shuffle trigger and it still works
You guys are so fun! Envious of your playgroup 😂
Nadu seems eggy 😢
Nice games! ❤❤❤
3:42 Nate gets a treasure here from Lotho
I just top foured a commander 2k tourney on Saturday with Nadu. Absolutely cEDH, but you do need to mulligan for hands that can get him in play early and has ways to get the triggers started.
Amazing games! They really didn’t test Nadu did they? I thought it was a strong casual deck at first, then I thought it would be almost strictly Cedh. That first game was too crazy lol
I don’t even want to play Nadu. At that point I would be scared of myself.
Is Cloudstone Curio too slow for the Nadu deck? You can play Elves, or something else small, and use it to reset the Nadu. It would function like a second Displacer Kitten, but may be less open to removal.
You could use coins as tokens, one side for targeted once other for targeted twice. Make the na/deuce
Even something like coin on text = 1 trigger, coin on art = 2 triggers could work
oh does the nantuko work without being on a creature. When i was playing with it in my prerelase deck. I thought it didn't.
Yea looking up the rulings on gatherer it seems i had it a bit wrong.
Nadu is so insanely broken.
Nadu is insane! It took me about thirty seconds to figure out that each creature gets two triggers and then I thought this is nuts!
I think the right way to win with his deck is provably Thassa's Oracle, though. Just an honest Thoracle with 11 devotion to blue lol
Nate Tokens looked dope!!! may i ask about them?
NADUUUUU LETS GO
IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS ONE
Chain of vapor is probably your most consistent way of getting threshold. You can just keep sacking your lands, then use cephalid colosseum, then flicker/ recast endurance over and over again
Another line for Nadu? Just play Thassa's Oracle and Hermit Druid I guess. As long as you have haste enabling I can totally see a shortcut, especially since it's way easier to tutor for creatures than for anything else in Simic.
I really wanna see a game of Nadu, Krarkashima, Gitrog, and one other "Non-Deterministic Commander" cEDH.
Cam could have equiped the dryad arbod and his other dorks with greaves to give them hast, tap them for mana, and cast a new dork.
The high synergie between nadu/ 0 equip cards and making tokens on land fall shows pretty good why he is so insane. Also with lands that are/can turn into creatures
Also instead of that convoluted loop you could have casted thassas.
Also unctus +seeker of skybreak// aphetto alfhemist can loop you through your deck
Unctus on seeker to make it blue.
Tap to untap itself and have a looting Trigger from Unctus to get though your deck and cast thassas
if imskir would be grixis or mardu instead of rakdos he would be so stick since flickering/copying would be so good!
to dylans saying "we don't know yet if nadu is like a value deck that wants to keep a good six or fuck it, turbo, i wanna win on turn 3"
i think that depends on how you build it. cams build from the showing of the video looks like a midrang-y plan.
if want to turbo i think a "Cheerios" build with a bunch of 0 mana creatures to equip to, to trigger Nadu, would be the way to go
would it be worth throwing in Thoracle in the Nadu deck? looks like you are able to get through your deck pretty easy.
Im thinking of building the new ashling as cedh
Is it worth considering putting in something like walking Atlas, a bounce land and retreat to coralhelm for Nadu?
18:16 Simian spirit guide again Cam?!?!?! 😂😂
Cedh tv made a video showcasing the deck and wincon with a hullbreaker line, followed by a walking ballista
Power level is fine. Annoying level is too much.
ngl no hate to any other cedh channels but it's refreshing to see a blue deck win through something other than thoracle
I love you guys and i try to watch every game yallpost on here but bye😂 im getting flashbacks from my fnm of watching a nadu go 15 minutes past the time limit and still barely win.
Birb go phew. Jesus definitely didnt think that was gonna happen. I was so wrong about nadu.
Oh wow!
An insane simic value commander!
Looks like they cracked simic!
Bristly Bill and Roaring Earth are also great additions to Nadu, I think
I’d like to know where I can find Dylan playmat. I really really like it!
Targeting the dryad arbor with some of the flickers alternating with Nadu would have increased your trigger count maybe getting out the win faster?
Cam, didn't get to meet you at Command fest, but you met my wife Brittney. I went top 4 with Ob, would love to link up one day. Yall are awesome!!!
7:24 Or, and hear me out, Ban nadu, winged wisdom?
11:22 This is going to sound super salty and bias'd against Nadu, but Cam basically won as soon as he resolved Nadu and retained control of Lightning Greaves.
really neat you went for Dualcastermage combo instead of doing the Peer into the Abyss that Hoarding Broodlord is known for.
Really think if you gonna loop to get deck in hand/field just run thorcle.
Don't think Nadu would be banned but could due to lower power pods.
Will say Endurance target you through a one ring protection was a opps since you pro everything.
Thoracle is dead outside of that, tho. The point of Cedh is to avoid as many dead cards as possible
Through my playtesting Rhystic didn't do anything in Nadu. Also, I saw 33 lands which I think is close to what it needs. Saw a couple of games with it at 29 and it whiffed when it needed the landfall triggers.
It's incredible that I read nadu so many times and was like "yeah, that's a weird design whatever". It wasn't until I saw this game that I realized they genuinely didn't test that card at all huh
question: Why isn't thoracle in nadu? Even without black, if nadu is getting rid of your whole library, make it easier on yourself to just win with thoracle
Most Nadu pilots consider it a dead card because it does nothing until you’ve drawn your whole deck, at which point you have a million ways of winning, with cards that are actually useful throughout the game, like Endurance loops, Finale etc
It would be way faster with Thoracle.
It is not a dead card when you can reset its trigger with the kitten.
@@adams333it’s not that much faster. Thoracle trigger isn’t even a scry.
@@BVBridesifyer it doesnt matter, play thoracle, equip it to see two more cards, keep going till you have the entire deck, reset thoracle trigger with the kitten trigger.
One of the three authors for the Fungal Infection deck, sucks it didn't get to show its legs this episode. Still an awesome episode though, Nadu is KoS.
I’m thinking Nadu is going to turn out to be too much of a glass cannon and once people learn how to deal with it, it will settle down to a tier 2 commander.
The worst part about nadu isn’t how strong he is, it’s how boring he is to play against.
If you use Cowardice and an ornithopter you can use nadu to go through your whole deck. It does make you play 2 bad cards but it does go infinite with Nadu
Imskir was the commander I was most curious about its viability in CEDH.
Safekeeper gives shroud to the creature it targets so unless you have borne upon a wind I don't think you can use it to sac lands for threshold to do the cephalid coliseum loop
He had so many creatures at that point that he could. He can use the safekeeper to sac lands to get threshold and continue the loop because he’s gonna get the lands back. Remember for each land he’s getting 2 creatures. He would easily bet positive
Starting to realize that savage summoning has real practical use in cedh again
Question for tyler, how do you feel about vexing bauble vs defense grid?
I think with displacer kitten you could of presented a loop of just drawing your deck and having all lands in play - then thorical for the win
Haha Cam even forgets some creatures on 7:20. Some things he puts on top are only targeted once.
On game 1 cam could have searched for a dryad Arbor and give it haste with Greaves to "draw" 4
Non infinite infinites reminds me of my brother's Sylvala WG cEDH deck
Gotta make sure you hit what you need
Been playing Nadu all weekend at CommandFest, and he's been a menace to society. I'm riding the Trash Bird bus into the ground!
There's a reason why my Arena nadu deck is called "geneva violation". And i think its accurately portrayed here.
Only have the arena deck because im still getting a decklist done for paper.