Where Do Nikola Jokic and Jimmy Butler Rank Right Now on Bill Simmons’s All-Time Pyramid?
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- čas přidán 4. 06. 2023
- After Game 2 of the NBA Finals, Bill Simmons and Ryen Russillo discuss the big-picture implications of this postseason for Nikola Jokic and Jimmy Butler, two improbable superstars who have forged remarkable careers in the NBA.
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It's kinda crazy how the best players on both teams were the 30th and 41st pick in the draft. I don't think that's ever happened before, where the two best players in a championship series were practically 2nd round picks.
It's because of these one and done phenomena. More players with upside get drafted earlier now and development is more important after they are drafted. Very few prospects come out now that can play immediately.
@@davidmontgomery1442 That isn't true. Back then it was a smaller amount of players doing one and done. And then the floodgates opened.
9 undrafted heat players, a deeper dive into Butler, he was homeless, wasn't highly recruited out of high school... There are more bad players in the first round more than ever cause of one and done, I believe the new rule is back to you can be drafted at 18.
The 2 best players in this series are Jokic and Murray. 2 good rounds from Butler really fooled yall😂
@@daddyfuse50 Reading comprehension is not your strongest suit I see. I said the best players on each team, not the two best players in general.
when you score 41 on 28 shots, grab 11 boards and 4 assists in a finals against a great defense, and people say "you didn't play well", you're officially GOAT status
nobody said he didn't play well
@@jideajibola5074 9:25
@@uberneanderthal Lol they were talking about Jimmy not Jokic.
@@RV1AND you're right, he said 'Jimmy' 30 seconds earlier and I guess I missed it. wasn't much of a segue
What do you think GOAT means?
And Jokic’s game will be more durable. It’s not based on athleticism obviously. It’s his intellect and soft touch in a 7 foot/280 lbs package. If he still has the desire he should be dominant into his mid-30s.
Butler has no athleticism either.
@@aron.gortman that's def not true
Jokic has better hand eye than Butler, better body control, better footwork, better reflexes, and so on. So if it's not true that Butler is not very athletic, then why is it still true for Jokic? Is it because of that ghetto trash view of basketball where athleticism only counts if you're jumping around?
@@Musso88 Butler is black and unathletic. Jokic is the man.
it always warms my heart when dirk gets mentioned
The idea that Jokic is not athletic is absurd. He’s not graceful, but his first step is lightning and his spin moves evoke Olajuwon. And his ability to pass without actually catching the ball first is something I’ve never seen done consistently on any level..
I would say he is graceful, just unorthodox
"Athletic" in NBA parlance is so narrow that it usually just means ability to play above the rim. Not unimportant, but ask Joker's peers to execute the balance, strength, and coordination needed for his moves and see how athletic they look.
And he runs and runs. He has very good stamina and sometimes you see him hit 3rd gear like when AD chased him from rim to rim after a rebound and he never gained a foot on Jok. Find the audio of Ayton last year arriving on bench trying to talk while gasping for air like a fish on land, how much Jokic runs a lot. 😂
💯
Jimmy reminds me a lot of Reggie Miller stats won’t say he was an all time great but ask the fans of teams they played in the playoffs and they’ll tell you he’s like that.
He's definitely the Reggie Miller of his era - although his resume is a bit more impressive with more All Star / All NBA teams as well as All Defensive teams
Solid comparison but Butler is the better all around player. He's also led his teams to two finals. Reggie only got to one and had a far more talented team.
Def great comparison. Bt if he wins this finals he will get Kawhi recognition
@@Shortballa11 Better comparison
I really like that comp I never heard it and yet it feels pretty spot on, great job
Jimmy Butler has averaged 20-5-5 with all-league level defense for almost a decade straight and has been the best player on 2 finals teams. He's without a doubt in the Top 100 and maybe even in the Top 75.
I’d give him top 70 rn and if he gets this championship, top 40
Bro basically every all star wing has done this 💀💀
@@zbt62 Who?
guys who are very good at everything tend to be underrated, because they don't have that one stat that pops out. Pippen, Havlicek, Moncrief, Cunningham. That's the group I'd put Jimmy in. top 75 for sure.
Would you rather have Dame or Jimmy? Cuz Jimmy produces in the playoffs at the highest level, so I would say Jimmy. But Dame drops tons of numbers and is more gaudy statistically
Going back the last 50 years, the only players to be the clear cut best player on at least 2 teams that made the finals are steph curry, durant, Lebron, kawhi, dirk, Kobe, Duncan, shaq, Jason Kidd, Karl Malone, mj, Hakeem Olajuwon, Isiah Thomas, magic, bird, Kareem, Moses Malone, dr J, and jimmy butler. That puts him in incredibly elite company and in my opinion, puts him in the top 75 ahead of guys like Reggie miller and Dominique
That’s real
winning isnt everything...def matters.. but its not everything. i'd argue spolstra is at least as big reason for the two finals appearances as jimmy and this yrs run is def kinda of fluky. they ran into a bucks team w injured giannis, and celtics team that over years loves to shoot themselves in the foot.
its crazy too bc tatum gets a lot of shit for being inconsistent but jimmy has always been as if not more inconsistent than tatum. during their first finals run tyler herro lead them in scoring by a wide margin through the first two series.
jimmy is not greater all time the reggie miller thats crazy. dwight howard and t-mac had better careers and they didnt make the top 75. no way jimmy is top 75
@@taylor7264 Spoelstra carries the Heat. Not Butler. Individually he is worse than Paul George or Tatum even. Like im 2004 Pistons - he is Chancey Billups. The best player on the team but doesn't carry the team. Goat Spoelstra makes players look better than they are. His system is like PEDs. Many of those Heat players that start wouldn't even make other rosters. Its all Spoelstra elevating them.
Exactly! I have him around 50 if they don't win the title. If the Heat win then I have a hard time keeping him out of the top 40.
Offensively jokic right now as good as anyone in nba history
Yeah for sure. Time will tell but I do think taking a little dip offensively from jokic and pairing that All NBA defense is why guys like lebron, MJ, Duncan are really hard to pass all time. I do think Jokic is my center for all time starting 5. Him dishing to 4 of the best players ever would be insane
With the current rules, yes. I would be curious to see how his game would be without a 3 point line. Also I'd like to see how Wilt would play with a 3 point line. Spacing is so important for big men
Jokic is the best offensive center ever & I wonder if anyone could have a strong arguement against that
Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Moses Malone, Arvydas Sabonis...all ahead of Jokic.
Jokic needs more time.
Nice meet riding
Its hard to overestimate Jokic. The only reason Miami has a chance this series is the rest of his team lacks playoff experience. If this team can stay together for five years they'll get at least 2 championships. Im a Heat fan so I hope we win bit Jokic is a monster.
Man please.....Don't blame it on a lack of playoff experience. This core of Jokic, Murray, and Porter have been together for 5-6 years. I'm not buying that. The Heat have beat the 2 Overall Title Favorites on their way to the Championship. They have a chance in this series because they are one of the better TEAMS in the NBA. Plain and simple...
You definitely aren’t a Heat fan. Gtfoh
@@bigthurl5613 Nuggets don't have finals experience tho.. it's their first time on this stage!
@bigthurl5613 porter and Murray have been hurt the last couple years. 3years ago when all were healthy they made the west finals, while in their early 20's.
@@gg456stormy and they got smacked. They’re a much mentally stronger team now but Porter Jr is reverting back to how he played against the Lakers in 2020. Looking forward to game 3 to see how Denver responds after having their egos checked
Having Horry in the top 100 is insane
That’s accurate. If Jokic wins a title he is Kg, Dirk, Gianni’s territory no doubt.
You're making the assumption that Giannis is even in the same stratosphere as Garnett or Nowitzki... without Jrue or Middleton he's consistently been DOGSHIT in the playoffs. Garnett got to the WCF with NOBODIES, then changed everything for Boston, also changed the game for bigs offensively and was a nightmare on defense when you were still allowed to play defense, in man as well as a switch AND as a help defender. Nowitzki routinely won over 60 games though he came up short in the playoffs save for 2011.
Giannis has NO offensive bag, is allowed to travelcarryoffensivefoul on every play, and plays as a roaming offball defender rather than a straight up man defender... he's the shiny new toy that is very good but he's not on the same level
@@ou8428 bro KG is hella overrated..he needed to go create a superteam only to win one championship! It's a joke .
@@ou8428 Bruh you talking as if Jrue and Middleton are Hofamers. meanwhile Lebron has top 75 teammates, Kd went to an all time great, Steph plays with the second best shooter ever, garnett played with 2 HOFamers in their prime and you got it out for Giannis??!!! Even Dirk played with a HOF in Jkidd. Giannis got 2 MVPs, 1 finals MVP with a 50 point close out game. All defense almost every season. DPOY. Honestly this aint even a discusion. Jokic is joining Giannis, not the other way around
@@elmehdinafia1237 Exactly. It's KG's fault that Minnesota tampered with Joe Smith.
@@ou8428 In what world are Sam Cassell and Spree nobodies? Giannis has literally never played without Jrue or Middleton in the playoffs, he's always had at least one of them by his side. If Garnett could take nobodies to the WCF, then he shouldn't have missed the playoffs the year after.
Jimmy Butler has one of the greatest Playoff stat elevations in NBA history. The regular season doesn't tell the full story.
On that note, compare Kawhi's regular season stats to Playoffs and witness the GOAT playoff monster.
Kawhi is a savage no doubt. But his body is broken. He’s in that catagory of what if even though he has two championships and to f mvps . If he was 100% healthy throughout his career I give him 1 or 2 more titles with the spurs. If he stayed in Toronto that team could’ve gone back to back
@@rangerscoach Kawhi is an all time great player. When healthy at his apex he wasn't any worse than Kobe Bryant at his apex. Butler isn't even close. Spoelstra just makes him look better than he is. Butler was in 4 teams in 4 yrs for a reason. Many of these Heat players actually woild struggle to make other rosters. Thats how great spoelstra is. Thats how much he elevates players
Wanna know who's #1 and #2 all time in playoff ppg improving versus the regular season? Jamal Murray & Nikola Jokic.
@SuperThumpasaurus well a small sample size will do that. They definitely do be balling though
@@erikpuka2627 Spo is a phenomenal coach but lets not sit here and pretend he would be here in this position if he didn't have Jimmy. Spo won a lot of games after Lebron left but the Heat never made it past the 2nd round until the bubble, and that was JImmy's 1st year in Miami. Since Jimmy's been there, the Heat have been in the ECF or the Finals every year minus 2021 when they got an ass whooping by MIlwaukee. Spo is the reason the Heat are good, but Jimmy is the reason they win games, and there's a difference.
Jimmy is without question top 100. He massively elevates in the playoffs and that has to count for a lot. I think he’s arguably top 75, very close at this stage.
Jimmy would give work to half the people in the top 75. People need to put respect on that man’s 2 way versatility.
@@tjayk9127 I very much agree, but if we are talking about a career list, he does get dinged for being significantly weaker in the regular season. If it was playoff Jimmy in isolation he could be top 50
He's better than Ewing and Caramelo.
@@axelkristoff Carmelo has no business being in the top 75 or even close tbh. Ewing is clearly above Butler for now.
@@AlexBrown-xp7mt We agree on Carmelo. How is Ewing better than Butler?
Jokic did not take that long to get to his first finals. He's just unlucky to have Murray injured for 2 years. Look at what is happening when he has a healthy Murray.
I think the time to debate legacys is after these guys retire. So many things are still happening and much is yet to be written.
If Jokic wins 3 rings he will be in top 10. He needs two more. And he can get it. 28 isnt old. He has many years ahead. His style and the fact he has been taking care of his body means he can play another 7 likely.
This!
When Giannis won his title, the bucks were old and a lot of the team was on the decline. For the nuggets, the oldest player apart of their core was 29, and their top 4 players are 27 and under.
Facts. 3 rings would vault him above Olajuwon Shaq and Kobe. He'd be top 8.
I think you guys are the best duo out there. Thank you
Depends if you're ranking on peak greatness relative to the era or career accomplishments.
If you're doing a peak/prime greatness relative to era I break it down by eras/decades
20s Jokic. Giannis
10s Lebron . Steph
00s Duncan. Shaq/Kobe
90s MJ . Hakeem
80s. Bird/Magic
70s Kareem. (Dr. J ABA included)
60s Russell/Wilt
These will probably be the top 15 players of alltime in 5 years when Jokic and Giannis add a little more to the career accomplishments inevitably unless an unforseen decline occurs.
Moses, Durant ,Big O, West, K. Malone, Barkley, Dirk, KG, Robinson, Wade, Barry, Baylor, Kawhi, Isiah, Walton are part of the 16-30 tier I'm confident Jokic will pass.
Jimmy relative to era I'd rank same tier as Pierce, Dominique, King, Carmelo, English, Dantley, Mullin, Hill, Worthy, George for small forwards because they never had runs in the playoffs like Jimmy. So he is in the 51-75 range alltime.
Btw I don't believe in exact numbers for ranking players from different eras, I think it can turn into a big disrespect game arguing specifics like Jordan is one but LeBron is 2 or vice versa, the circumstances are completely different.
Very solid analysis my guy
Anything that Durant can do to salvage a spot in the top 15?
I agree with most of this but Durant is top 15 right now. He'll drop out if he never achieves more playoff success and Giannis/Jokic continue to rise, but he's displayed enough dominance as a scorer over his career to claim a top 15 spot.
@@nolanscriptureI agree with that.
10s Lebron. Steph/Durant
80s Magic/Bird Moses
Would be 2 Jokic and Giannis placeholders instead of starting a best of the 2020s list of a decade that isn't over yet.
What I also do is because the game changes so much and it's hard to compare different eras , rank only within 30 year blocks.
For example
60s players stay in a group with 50s and 70s players
70s players stay within a group of 60s and 80s players.
80s players stay ranked within a group of 70s and 90s players
@@randybell101190 I think eventually he's bumped out when the decade ends but right now to be undeniable I think he needs another ring or 2-3 more amazing healthy seasons.
It's funny how Rusillo wait for Bill to stop talking, and then when it's time for him to talk, Bill will start's talking again.😂
Great segment!!
He’s achieved more than Dame & Dame was Top 75
quit spitting facts bro you're scaring the hoes
There should be a different category for guys who step it up in the playoffs. Jimmy is as good at that as anyone I’ve ever seen.
I actually don’t see this being a regular thing. I can’t imagine they’re gonna have another playoff run where they don’t run into a Single good 3 point shooting team
He has the consistency of delivery that Duncan had with a better passing and range on his shot.
Yes, I agree, Jokic is a much better passer and has further range than 15 time NBA All-defensive team Tim Duncan.
With a title win, Jokic becomes top 25, Butler becomes top 50.
Idk about Butler, cause rn he's like the 3rd/4th best guy on the team 2 games into the finals (Gabe, Bam, Love?), so he should already be top 50 if you think a ring puts him top 50.
No logic at all to that.
@@ckq Not really, even if Butler doesn’t win as the best player this series, do you believe he isn’t the best player for their season/playoff run period? It’s like saying Parker was the best player for the 07’Spurs just because he was the best in the finals
@@Veggamattic How so
@@hardwoodthought1213 Because the entire idea that team success is relevant in player comparison has no logic. The idea that if Ray Allen or Kyrie had missed those shots, that Lebron would somehow be rated lower as an individual player is stupid. The idea that all-stars should be selected based on team success is even more stupid, just like saying what the OP said...totally irrational.
Fanduel gotta add a prop bet on what room Ruesillo does the podcast in😂
Jimmie Butler has among forwards been in the top 4 in win shares 6 separate times. This would mean he arguably should have been selected as 1st team 4x and 2nd team 2x and likely an additional 3rd team. Just because sportswriters and broadcasters get these votes wrong doesn't mean Butler should be penalized. If Miami goes on to win this series, how is he not Top 50 all time? I can't think of a more impressive run if he takes this talent to a title. It would be more impressive than Dirk in 2011, Wade in 2007, or Hakeem in 1994 & 1995. On top of that he he have another Finals appearance and went 7 games in the eastern confrence Finals another year. There aren't more than 25 players with better resumes than that. He already ranks 35th in career playoff win shares, 30th in career playoff VORP, and 24th in career playoff box plus minus.
Start with the fact that he ain't a forward. Finish with your logic having the intellectual fortitude of a feces sandwich.
Joker is one of the hardest players in history to rank. If you're just talking about a center who can get you two points on anyone when it's supremely important, you couldn't rank him above the five centers above him. If you're talking about a defensive stopper who can get you the key rebound or blocked shot he's in the same position.
But if you're talking about the best overall basketball player and guy who is most likely to lead your team to a victory, he's already right there with Wilt. You can't even compare him to Shaq or Hakeem or even Kareem because it's just not fair to them. Yes, he has to do it for another 5 years to legitimately hold that spot, but assuming there's no injury or just lack of Interest on his parts and he at least stays this good, you're looking at the best center ever depending on what criteria you use.
Amazing to me that after the 2017 season there was room for debate about who you would rather have at SF, Jimmy Butler or Gordon Heyward.
Giannis was injured in both trips for the Heat finals runs
Butler is 33, Jokic is 28. Miami is a flawed team, the Nuggets are a complete team. When it’s all over, Butler top 60, Jokic top 15.
“If Jimmy Butler was a Celtic, he would be top 25” - What’s actually Bill Simmons would have pressed here.
Bullshit bulter wishes
You need to list your 70-80 so we know what to compare Jimmy to.
Jimmy is just better than TMac, playoffs show that
It was originally dudes like Webber, English, Parish, Sabonis, Hill. That was 13 years ago tho
I agree
Read the book.
If Jimmy has another 2 nice playoffs runs why can't he be top 75 ? Dude is good ! What I like the most about him is that he's far from just being a scorer. He can hustle,pass,play defense,rebound,set picks etc. He's down to do anything.
Because he's an 18ppg scorer who we wouldn't even be mentioning if the playoff format weren't changed. Top 75 is legendary. Jimmy's good, but historically irrelevant.
Tmac was my favorite but Jimmy has passed him with the HUGE disparity in playoff success.
Whaaaat?
Jokic is the best passer in NBA History
I speak only irrefutable truths
@Minecraft Steve show me a pass stockton has done better than that aaron gordon lob yesterday and i am not a jokic fan. I would agree with you if you added nash but stockton and cp3 are great playmakers not passers
If you're just looking for flash Bird was a better passer.
@Minecraft Steve Jokic shoots 60% from the field and is 6’11 the gravity he has on the court combined with his vision, his touch, his accuracy, his timing all combined together is what separates Jokic from any other passer in NBA history, please just consider the fact that no other big men in nba history has come close to running an offense the way Jokic does
You children are prisoners of the moment. Just have to laugh at you😂😂😂
Jokic is the best player in the world and I don't know that it's even debatable. He should have just won his 3rd straight mvp, he could end up a champion and finals mvp, a triple double machine and can hit the big shots from range
The only thing he doesn't have going for him is he is not american
BY advanced stats Jokic could be in Shaq/Jordan level, at least on offense. Three straight years and counting of leading the league in PER, WS/48, BPM.
On D, people say he's bad. It's totally untrue. He's just not athletic in a league where athleticism is held as the gold standard (people think about LeBron's chase-down blocks when he'll get blown by in the same game.) But Jokic is *always* in the right position. Jokic on D is like a public health program: when he's working you don't notice him doing an excellent job.
Everybody gets blown by...Every shot blocker have been dunked on, PG's with the best handle have been stripped and etc. Point is, there's no secret he sucks on the defensive end.....Lebron has made how many all defensive teams?
To be fair, you’re not wrong about Jokic, but his lack of defensive versatility is and should be a ding because it is an *exploitable* weakness. No, he’s not bad, but it does give other teams a chance against him in a similar way that Giannis or Joel are criticized for their lack of offensive wiggle in the 4th/at the end of games in the playoffs.
Jokic is in my view the third or fourth best offensive player ever and already not too far behind those above him
@@stephenwu1524 After watching this series, as a Heat fan, my goodness you're right. If not the best ever. Zero weaknesses on offense. He's like Shaq, but better. It was ridiculous to watch, it felt like Thanos coming to take the Avengers' lunch money again. Props to the Nuggets, they deserve it.
Jokic 2023 Playoffs EASILY 1 of GOAT!
#1 in ALL Playoffs in
POINTS
ASSISTS
REBOUNDS
(1st player EVER to have most POINTS ASSISTS REBOUNDS in single playoff! Wilt Russell Kareem Moses Bird Hakeem Shaq Duncan LeBron 5x the only others to lead in 2 of 3!)
WIN SHARES
PER
BPM
WS/48
Last 3 years in what easily could of been 3 straight MVPs he AVERAGED
26, 12, 9, 2stocks on insane 59/37/83, best analytics by far, best on/off by far!
He’s undoubtedly Top5-25 somewhere in terms of what he’s done from 20-28 years old from an individual accomplishment stand point, statistically, playoff riser, analytically, all around game.
It’s a TEAM game boys that’s why Jokic only had 1 WCF before 28 years old. He was still an awesome 26, 12, 6, 2stocks 52/40/82 in nearly 50 playoff games. Murray been hurt last 2 playoffs as was MPJ last year. They had no bench. Even this series they still could lose if KCP MPJ continue to shoot 20% from 3 instead of their normal 40% (they’re 5-26 so far from 3 or they’re up 3-0 if they are their normal 10-26 to 12-26 selfs!). MJ first 6 Playoffs was 24-29 in playoff games and never made a finals also. Was 0-5 vs Celtics Pistons even though he was mostly elite in playoffs. TEAMS win titles not individual players!
Jokić I would say is the top 75 player. Butler hasn’t won MVP or championship yet so he still got a ways to go.
Nikola Jokić is the GOAT!
Just watch and wait! ✌️🏆
how do you guys still have webcams from 2006?
I shut it down when he said horry was better lol
There were reports that Caleb Martin was sick as hell for the last 2 games so that may have effected his game as well
*AFFECTED, not effected
Jokic is Top 15 assuming he finished with 1 or 2 Champinships
I don’t know if I’d put Butler over mcgrady but definitely top 100 already
Jokic is the most skilled center ever imo
Offensively yes but overall it's still the dream but gotta say he improved ALOT defensively not great but enough to be a plus
respect hakeem
Hakeem he was able to win a title without another superstar as his Robin like Jokic has with Jamal Murray
@@noordeenaltammimi6416 he's led the league in DBPM two years in a row. top 10 in defensive win shares 4 of the last 5 years. and consistently has the best defensive rating on his team.
he's not just a plus on defense, he's a plus, plus, plus.
@@JoeMama-tl4tr he had Horry, Otis, Kenny and Cassell. I'd trade those four for Denver's four any day.
Butler is a worse player than Paul George or Jason Tatum. Spoelstra and his system carries the Heat. Elevates players. Can take Montrezl Harrell to the All star game(Adebayol. Many of these Heat starters would not make other rosters. Remember what happened to Nunn, Cole, Chalmets, Dragic when they left Spoelstras system ?
Dragic was good on the sun's for a few years I think him washing out recently is mainly due to age
I think you have to have Jimmy Butler somewhere 60-75 all time based on how many players on the official Top 75 team never even made a finals or were the 2nd and 3rd options on a championship team. Jokic has to be somewhere in the 13-20 range already because as far as greats with 1 FMVP go, Jokic has a much better resume in terms of accomplishments than guys like Dirk, KD, Giannis, etc.
Jokic will undoubtedly be top 10 all time at LEAST. He is entirely unique and makes everyone infinitely better. Nobody has ever been able to do what he can do.
jokic needs to have at least 7-10 more seasons like this last one (24-27pts 10reb and 8-10asts) to even be in the discussion for top10-15. id argue tatum (who was 30 10 and 5 this year) has a better chance of making top10 than jokic
for their careers jokic is 20 11 7 if you round up and tatum is 23 7 3. differece is tatum is 3 years younger and hasnt hit is prime yet. career counting stats will most likely lean in tatums favor when their careers are finished. hes a two way guy unlike jokic. and hes had team success playoffs n reg season since the minute his career started. hes the only player in the league i think has a chance to pass lebron in all time playoff scoring jokic is #95 right now tatum is #52 again in less time
@@taylor7264 I was basing it off probably at least 5 more seasons like this. I see what you're saying but having intangibles like complete selflessness, maybe the best playmaking in league history as well as many others puts him leagues ahead of tatum who is far more one dimensional
@@pantrywarriors9577 first of all saying somebody is likely a top 10 all time guy is extremely presumptuous. KD is a career 27 7 7 50%fg w 2 rings and isnt considered top 10
tatum might be more one dimensional than jokic rn but 30 10 n 5 w great defense is not 1 dimensional.
I'd argue that scoring and defense have the most impact on winning of all skillsets and tatum is a WAY better defender and prob a better scorer. def is if you're talking counting stats and scoring versatility - how does defense and winning factor in for you?
how many rings you think jokic has at the end of the 5 years? we're not comparing peaks. remember top10 is a career resume achievement. like i said assuming either will be top 10 is a lil crazy but if i had to bet im picking tatum bc he had a better first 6 years than jokic and has more opportunity ahead of him time-wise than joikc
Tatum being better than Jokic is insane
@@Clipsposter3763 worst take I've heard in a long time
Jokic, lebron and nash are the only guys i never said wth was that possession offensively
Lebron has definitely had some questionable offensive moments. But most of the Greats have.
@@gabrielalele8603 yeah those 2 3s in game 3 of the WCFs this year were wild lol
Man if DRose would have stayed healthy and Chicago kept Butler they def would have won a few
I think so too 😢
Joker top 20 of all time EASY!
They will both be in the top 50 one day, but let's get that first ring.
Bro Jokic is already top 50
If nuggets win he will be around top 25
its spolstra w jimmy. hes def a smart crafty strong guy but spolstra gets the most credit for heat success over past 4 years
TMac is so underrated fuck injuries man
Dude never won a playoff series. The most overrated player ever
@@hardwoodthought1213 facts
@@hardwoodthought1213 lol look at those Orlando teams around him.
@@turneryoung905 Blew a 3-1 lead in 03. He could have G-Leaguers around him, failing to close out a 3-1 is awful.
Fine, ignore Orlando. What about Houston? You know Houston actually won playoff series when McGrady was injured, right? Never when he was healthy tho
@@hardwoodthought1213 draft him to the Celtics positioning that Jayson Tatum did and he wins just as much as Tatum.
Jokic could very well be top 5 center of all time when he retires. For butler if he goes ringless, you could put him in the ringless great conversation because his playoff resume to me has to hold up even if regular season he’s mid. If the Heat win this title, you have to put him top 50 somewhere
Would definitely need to compile stats and accomplishments but I could see it. In my opinion, nuggets or bucks will be the dynasty of the 2020s. There’s going to be a massive talent vacuum when Lebron and the old guard retire in 3 years, and wemby and the new guard aren’t ready yet. After this next year, I think 2025-2028 is going to be a weak micro ‘era’ where either the bucks or nuggets could trade off titles or establish a dynasty.
Could be? He’s already a top 6 center of all time. Who achieved more? I can only think of Kareem, Russel, Wilt, Shaq, and the dream. When Jokic retires he could be top 2 or 3.
Butler is easily top 75 and ahead of guys like Dame, Melo or Tmac imo. I even put him over Harden as the playoffs are what really matters. I nearly lost my mind when Bill said Miami didn't have a superstar during this pod. Guess Tatum isn't one either. Can we please stop saying the Heat dont have talent. Bam and Jimmy have achieved more than Tatum and Brown since 2020, they are actually tough as hell and their skill sets arent redundant. If my life depended on it to win me one important game, give me the Heat combo
Easily?
I don't understand why Jimmy Butler can't be top 75. So many analysts index way too much on regular season statistics when it is unanimously known that the post-season is an entirely different beast. The man has consistently shown that he plays winning basketball in Chicago, Minnesota, Philly and now Miami. Jimmy Butler easily trumps McGrady, Carmelo, Carter, Westbrook, Harden, and I would even put him over guys like Pierce and Reggie Miller. It's okay though; Buckets thrives on being the underdog.
Joker is not top 25 alltime stop it
He would be. Who do you have between 18/25?
@@hardwoodthought1213 Bron Kareem mj Duncan curry magic Hakeem shaq kd kobe bird kawaii gianias pippin those the only dudes I would put ahead of him if he wins
Pippen?,you must be fucking his ex to have pippen ahead of jokic
Butler has played with Drose, KAT, Wade, Simmons, Embiid, Adebayo, Herro and as of now hasn’t won a ring yet (although that can change) at the end of all his regular seasons no one ever said to themselves he is a top 5 player in the league. Yes he “elevates” in the playoffs but he hasn’t really played awesome in the past 7 games. Also he hasn’t out dueled anyone who is ranked above him. He didn’t out duel Jayson Tatum towards the end of last round, he didn’t outduel Giannis, in the finals he didn’t outduel Lebron. He doesn’t catch any flak when they underachieve but he gets all this credit when they win. Even in game 2. What was that last 3 point attempt about? That could’ve cost them the game.
I agree...I like Butler, but if he were one of the best 100 of all time, he would do better in the regular season. Yes, playoff Jimmy is great...but to be an all-time great you can't just play at that level for a 4 week stretch.
@@markprice5651 exactly even if I pick a top 100 player at random like T-mac he averaged 29.8 ppg in the playoffs between his stints in Orlando and Houston during his prime. Compared to 25.4 ppg during the regular season with both teams. That’s a consistency that Jimmy isn’t matching. Or even a guy like Paul Pierce or Vince Carter who were drafted in the lottery and were expected to be difference makers and dealt with the hood and the bad. Jokic was getting flack for winning an MVP and not winning a finals. It’s like because no one expects Jimmy to win the mvp, or to even be consistently elite, any time he plays well it’s gravy, and any time he doesn’t it goes unnoticed all while being a max contract player.
The minor way that Jokic is overrated is that interior defense is not the same as it was in the past so the guys from that era he is compared to had a tougher environment. So his inside scoring might not be the same but that is nit picking. He is amazing.
Well stated, but it cuts both ways too. How often did Mark Eaton or Patrick Ewing have to come out to the arc on defense?
Has anyone seen the Rest of Ryan russillos Body Like..ever? 😅
🃏🐐
Let me get this right, Jimmy Butler, who has been the best player on two teams that made it to the Finals is behind Tracy McGrady, who never got out of the first round once in 16 years? I don't want to hear Bill saying winning matters ever again. SMFH
Jimmy Butler is the best 2 way player in the NBA right now his elite defense and electric offense is next level stuff, amazing to watch him play 🔒🔥
The best?
Top 25 for Jokic is dead accurate imo
Bro recorded this on a flip phone
Jimmy is easily top 40 now
Butler is better then everyone he named and to say McGrady is an insult
Finally Robert Horry not in the top 100. It was a travesty at the time. There should be a Hall of Role Players where guys like him and Derek Fisher should be. Get some credit, but not too much.
Did Simmons really the best possible competition (@8:30)?? You serious!??
Look Jimmys highs are very high but hisnloes are pretty low. The only reason why we dont give him flack is because hes not a top 75 guy. His defense also savrs him from criticism
Putting Jokic in the top 25 is fair - for now..
I’m tired of players being put on a all time list just with 1 championship but jokics numbers are just insane lol
It’s not just one championship, it’s also 2 MVPS
Whoever loses this finals will be labeled either boring or not a top tier star.
Jimmy Butler ends up Clyde Drexler tier? Top 40 player?
Jokic never forces anything.
Joker had “mediocre” game 2-only 4 assists (and, yeah, 41 points and 10 boards).
It's insane, isn't it? That is considered a poor game by his standards
@@chaiinspace2 Yes, tho he’d (correctly) say the only stat that matters is the win.
Horry should come back next season and get whatever team he joins a Championship
Jimmy is closer to top 50 than top 100
Yeah post up your top 75 if Jimmy hasn't cracked it yet--- taking two at best solid teams to the finals and especially this path to the finals and his playoff performance put him above a lot of reg season stat monsters that likely fill up that list.
I don’t see how Jimmy isn’t top 75, not many guys were capable of being the #1 guy on a finals team. He’s done it twice. If you really look at it, he’s better than guys like A.I who had cultural impact but didn’t contribute to winning as much as Jimmy. To have T-Mac over him, when looking at resume is ridiculous to me as well
Plus these guys stating Jokic being 28 and taking this long... lol with that Denver situation and what year are we living in guys? This isn't the 80s-90s where athletes in inferior sports science and etc were burnt out at 33, you got Lebron putting up 41 pts at 38 and Jokic has 5-6 years left of dominant play at minimum these MF think he isn't getting a ring or two with crazy final stat line?
Butler is 33 and playing amazing by the comparison and YES Butler is over T-Mac and other reg season stat guys that didn't produce when it mattered. Butler has taken decent/solid teams to finals 2x and is in position to maybe even get the W and if he does that's a wrap on beneath AI or other reg season stat monsters.
Vincent, all day.
2:27 He should.
Are we just at a point where every great player of the future will just be easily slotting in the Top 25 of all time?
Obviously not, you have to slide people back every time. Jokic is 100% worth sliding people back. Would you argue Barkley is better than him? How about Karl Malone? Or Pippen? All those guys are in the top 25 range and I think it’s fair to say Jokic is better than them
Sounds like it. Let this play out before anointing all these guys.
@@gators9570 None of those are superior individual players to Jokic def
People really getting carried away by jokic potentially winning 1 ring. Hakeem, shaq, kareem, wilt all on another level
Jokic is nearly as good as those guys scoring in the post, but is also a great 3 point shooter and a HOF level point guard.
He's as good a rebounder, not far behind them in post defense, but not even close to any of them as a paint protector.
He's hard to gauge because his combination of skills and weaknesses are totally unique.
OK. But Hakeem, Shaq, Kareem, and Wilt are all arguably top 15 all time. No one said he is the best player ever, but the 5th or 6th best Center is still top 25.
they’re not all necessarily a different “level”
say what you want about what Jokic lacks, he also brings a dimension that those guys don’t have
Jimmy Butler with this run of this playoffs is top 75. If Reggie Miller is top 75 certainly Himmy Buckets is!
Two finals appearance
All playoff numbers across the board go up
Big time clutch plays, big playoff games
Enough said… easily take him over James Harden top 75 right now
Gabe Vincent, Duncan Robinson, Max Struss and Caleb Martin are all legit NBA players.
Just because they were undrafted but didn’t stay at a undraftee players skill wise… just like a new doctor or lawyer you are expected to get better and do you are not the same individual as you develop and hone your craft. Analyst need to stop saying undrafted they are legit very good NBA players!
Putting reg season stat monsters who had iffy playoff performances over a guy who takes a team 2x to the finals with an at best solid supporting cast-- especially knocking out the top seeds as #8 seed.
Butler is better than harden and ad and he made top 75
Ryen agreeing with Bill, no waaaaaaay! lol
Jimmy Bulter lead the team to the finals twice. including as an 8 seed. How is he not top 25 at all time? He's better than CP0, john stockton and Jason Kidd.
Jason Kidd won a ring, buddy.
@@dimitrijetucovic1307 winning a ring as a 5th option don’t count.
@@blackdragon7038 Yes it does. He was a vital part of that team and Kidd did just as much to carry two Nets teams to the finals in 02 and 03.
@@blackdragon7038 Plus he was a top 5 player in his prime, Butler has never been that.
Unpopular opinion: I'll take The butler over Joker
Definition of prisoner of the moment. Jimmy Butler ain’t top 100
But the Bucks have been the only one to deliver with a chip. Heat and a celtics have not
Jimmy has arguably has had the best 2020s decade run so far
Jokic is a legitimate top 25 player of all time. No questions about it guys
How come they never mention that the heat had one of the shortest off-season in NBA history after the bubble ? They were tired and got bounced in the first but beside that they been to the ECF every year and made the finals twice lol.
Bounced by the eventual Champs too. They just needed rest. And they proved that the last 2 years
I love Jokic but top 25 all time without even having won a title -yet- LOL Bill, I love you man but that's a trash, currently hype type of call. Similar to how you keep saying Durant is too 15 all time.. just smh
Only 15 guys have won 2 or more MVPs, and all of them are in the top 25.
What an astute comparison by BS. Jokic is a compilation of other white guys 🤣
jok top 25 butler top 100