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The TRUTH About Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth's Ending ft
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- čas přidán 17. 08. 2024
- I sat down with SchrodingersBabySeal to discuss Final Fantasy VII Rebirth's controversial ending, bring clarity to the ambiguities and talk the game's deepest mysteries.
(0:00) Intro
(4:21) The Best & Worst of Rebirth
(26:05) The Multiverse of Final Fantasy VII
(56:52) The Utilization of Zack Fair
(1:12:26) The Consequences of Cloud Remembering Zack Early
(1:17:10) Cloud's Relationships & The Power of Friendship
(1:33:52) Is Glenn's Cloud's Dad?
(1:54:01) What Excites and Concerns Us about FF7R Part 3
(2:11:22) Playable Aerith in Part 3
(2:13:40) Cloud's Delusions
(2:17:34) Aerith's Memory Loss
(2:28:35) Is Rebirth's Ending Too Difficult To Understand?
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#finalfantasyviirebirth #finalfantasyvii #ff7
I think the real true good ending that we're building towards is an ending where Zack and Roche somehow survive and live to join Strife Delivery Service so they can ride around on Motorcycles with Cloud.
Boy band ending
@@PhoonBucgeneMY Bad Boy Delivery Service? 😆
Damn it truly sounds good Lmao
@@PhoonBucgeneMY prelude to FF XV
Wtf that is the peakest peak of peak. Dont even care if its fanservice
I think combining Aerith’s death with the life stream plot twist is absolutely genius because as baby seal said; people tend to remember the most iconic “twist” in FF7 to be Aerith’s death, however, the devs (and a good section of the fandom) believe the “real” twist of FF7 to be the life stream twist. Having Cloud realize that Aerith is really dead during the life stream twist would be absolutely incredible. It combines the two most iconic scenes in the game.
God of War Ragnarok told no lies about how fate and destiny works with its iconic scene where Kratos, Mimir & Freya have an audience with The Sisters of Fate. Aerith was only “fated” to die because Aerith was an idiot who got gassed up after their trip to the Temple of the Ancients into thinking that she was some kind main character who had all the answers and could save the world on her own. She foolishly thought that she could defeat Sephiroth on her own. And I’m talking about the OG Aerith in FF7 1997 and Rebirth. Aerith was never trying to sacrifice herself and she didn’t want to die or expect that she was gonna die. And I hate how they now try to act like Aerith planned her own death.
@@endershepard7117 yeah that’s a valid take to have but what does it have to do with my comment 💀. If Aerith’s water scene gets adapted with the Lifestream sequence, it would have literally nothing to do with her characterization. She’s already dead at that point. My main focus with my comment was Cloud’s characterization, so what was the point of your reply 💀
@@KingdomKeyJT well tbh I stopped reading your comment as soon as I got to the part where you wrote “Aerith’s death.” For the second time, lol.
So I think you’re on to something here. However, I’d like to pitch a different scenario.
Aerith’s death will be presented in the whirlwind maze “illusions” scene. The truth about the Nibelheim flashback will also be there, but aerith’s death has not yet been accepted by Cloud, hence his projections of having saved her and seeing her in the party. We will feel the full force of Aerith’s death on Cloud’s psyche, reinforcing the fact that cloud cannot trust his memories.
What a treat it would be to hear Sephiroth say “What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.”
Combining? More like fence sitting. They wanted to show the fan-service like Cloud blocking that fateful blow 27 long years in the making while not having the guts to commit to a brand new story. Imagine the hype players would get if they showed Aerith unambiguously alive. Wouldn't that draw more excitement for Part 3 rather than this tepid noncommittal mystery?
The true ending is the friends we made along the way
love the part seal talks about the despair mechanic. broden and roche fell to despair which accelerates degradation. would explain why zach wouldnt fall to degradation either since the man never feels despair lol
Such a puppy.
I did not know that Seruf was Rufus. The whole Seruf plotline was entirely unintelligible to me until just now. Now it starts to make sense.
They're just setting up that stuff for part 3 since wutai will have a much bigger role now
The "ruf" part of his name gave it away to me.
It's almost the same name spelt in reverse.
i got it when he said "maybe he'd have showed if you spent more on that cheap set" or something like that
I don't get it. If Sarruf and Rufus are the same person and Glenn knows it, why talk about him as if he were a separate person?? And how would Rufus be both a Viceroy of Wutai and President Shinra's son, when they are opposing parties? I don't get it. It really doesn't make any sense!!
Here is my 2 cents. From the evidence given to us in the last two chapters, here's what I can discern:
1. Aerith is DEAD........BUT only in the 'rebirth' timeline. I think either the Aerith of the 'rebirth' timeline, faded/died at the end of her and Cloud's battle with Sephiorth leaving her AU self OR possibly jumped into her AU self similar to how Cloud did so in the earlier chapter. It's why her AU self fell asleep and then 'woke up' after the battle. Because whatever the F happened here, was something Sephiorth wasn't expected to happen with Aerith. It's the first time he's been seemingly surprised during this whole saga.
2. While I initially believed she was appearing to Cloud as a 'force ghost' after reviewing everything that happened I do not believe that is the case. I think there is a split in the timeline resulting in some version of her living but it is now separate from the 'rebirth' timeline and due to reasons (possibly Cloud being behind the whisper wall, holding the hollow materia, or the fact he traveled dimensions before) Cloud can now perceive things others can't. There is no guarantee she may rejoin Cloud/the party later as the foreshadowing does implicate she and Cloud will still be 'separated' if not by death then by dimensions/worlds by the end of everything.
3. Cloud is not 'delusional' in the general sense BUT I think that due to his situation he may feel he IS delusional. If Aerith is existing on another timeline, it's implied heavily that Cloud doesn't seem to recognize it and/or doesn't seem to grasp he's seeing things others can't. The developers stated in interviews that for Cloud's big twist coming up, it would be less of 'unreliable narrator' and more 'unreliable world'. Which makes me think that Cloud will not be 'crazy' but the world will be crazy with the multiverse shenanigans going on which will cause all sorts of problems for him.
Exactly my thoughts. Came to pretty much the same conclusions after thinking about the ending for a bit.
I think that the tear in the sky symbolizes the borders of the different worlds kinda opening up and them starting to merch. And Cloud seems to be the only one that can see this process happening in real time, with him being the only one that sees the tear and Aerith.
I also wondered why that is and came pretty much to the same possible answers. Mainly that he has kind of "hopped worlds" before and that he has a special connection to Aerith and Sephiroth that possibly allow him to see those things.
So I also don't think that he sees Aerith because he's "mentally unstable" or "delusional". I mean he is, but I don't think that that's the explanation for these scenes.
Overall I'm still on the fence when it comes to my feelings about the ending and the overall story. For me it heavily depends on the 3rd part and how they wrap it all up, so I basically hold out on the final judgement until we've seen the whole story unfold.
the fact that squareenix had to correct aerith's english dialogue to match with what she's seeing at the end of remake suggests that what she's seeing there is what cloud is seeing at the end of rebirth
I am leaning more towards your first reasoning. Aerith in the timeline she survives in was because of the “confluence of worlds and emotions” as Sephiroth explained. Confluence if you don't know the meaning means to join or merge.
Sephiroth says "And so it begins a confluence of worlds and emotions, Loss, Chief among them" = Loss, the most important emotion. When Cloud stopped Sephiroth he created a new timeline where he saved her in one and not the other. This can also explain why they didn not actually show her get stabbed, why Cloud has both the empty holy materia and the black materia at the same time. As well as the Sky from the "doomed" timeline. Living in both worlds that have merged for cloud explains why he can only see things they can't. This will add so much more layer to the story and the possibilities can be endless for something like this. And notice why they did not show the berial scene, because in OG it was cloud that let her go into the flow of the life stream, why would he need to do that if he doesn't think she is dead? Just like how one second when they were all sitting together one second Aerith wasn't there, the next that static glitch happened and she was there, that to me signals when we see that glitch he is jumping between the worlds in that instant where she is both alive and dead.
@@JavelinReactss Yeah, I would agree with that. That is also how I explained the absence of the berial scene to myself. Even though I was a bit disappointed it wasn't in there, as it is such an iconic scene, it just wouldn't make sense, seeing as Cloud thinks that she's still alive.
@@MarKaVSL The argument people use is that she is in the Lifestream there for just because she is in the lifestream she is dead. No, it's far more complex than that. The lifestream encompasses a multitude of worlds, as they are bound to it, as stated by Sephiroth. There is no reason why she can't be alive in the merged world where she is also dead. It makes sense that our party can't see her except cloud, because they have not experience the multitude of worlds that Sephiroth, Aerith and Cloud has, but more importantly I think its also because they were not there with Cloud when he created that world. It makes sense why they cant see Aerith
at this point people are just here for the ride
100%... i've given up caring about what they do with the story.
Sure am, but am still gonna complain as well.
@@vincentgraymoreBoohoo
Nah the game tells us exactly whats gonna happen
This is the biggest shame.
I agree with babyseal on the fact that Sephiroth pushed Cloud in the temple.
But I believe Sephiroth also allowed Cloud to “save Aerith” to make him go even crazier when the northern crater moment will come.
No doubt the Aerith Cloud’s seeing is the real her trying to help him but I still think it’s all Sephiroth plan to mess with him.
I think Sephiroth just makes him believe he saved her, the reveal of what actually happened will come later and lead Cloud to a total breakdown. But before that happens, Sephiroth needs him to bring the black materia to the northern crater.
I feel that Sephiroth appearing as Glenn doesn't fit his style. But Jenova appearing as Glenn would totally fit. Despite Jenova pretty much not having a character at this point.
Jenova is appearing as Sephiroth and Glenn through the robed people.
@@slyktech1860
Yes but it is Sephiroth in the drivers seat so to speak, and appearing as someone else isn't exactly his style
I agree. I was really hoping for much more Jenova story-especially at the temple. I’m hoping we get more of her and even some of Minerva in the next story.
Jenova is the mastermind behind it all, Sephiroth has an illusion of control. My theory that is
i have no idea what they'll do with aerith part 3 but she will probably have a lot more screentime than she had originally that's for sure. that said, i think it's interesting how they've been setting up a "reunion" not only between worlds since the remake part 1 but more specifically a reunion between cloud and aerith, there's a lot of little hints sprinkled throughout both games that are easy to miss which leads me to believe in an alternate world/timeline aerith being alive and reuniting with the crew (or just cloud) at some point in part 3. i personally think an alternate timeline aerith being alive seems like a valid theory otherwise all of this foreshadowing about her reuniting with cloud after being separated from him and the crew seems kind of pointless.
the devs themselves asked us to pay attention to the loveless play and the song "no promises to keep" and how they're all kind of interconnected and relevant to the story... the loveless play basically ends with the princess and the knight being separated as the knight departs but the knight tells her that she doesn't need to promise she'll wait as he knows he will find her there; similar things are said in aerith's song that she wrote "no promises to keep" where she basically talks about wanting to meet cloud again after being separated from him and knowing that he will "find her" and hoping that they could meet again, maybe "in their street" (loveless street where they first met) or "at their place" (the church that they referred to as their spot in the dream date) ... rebirth ends with cloud and the party being separated from aerith and despite the english localization having cloud and aerith make a promise to each other in the end, in the japanese version they don't make any promises to each other, they just tell each other their plans before being separated and they answer with "sure/certainly" instead of "promise" which makes a lot more sense with "no promises await at journey's end" and also the theme song "no promises to keep".
there's a lot more foreshadowing than that but those elements alone to me kind of makes me think that there's a possibility of an alternate aerith being alive somewhere due to cloud blocking sephiroth's sword and at some point in part 3 she will reunite with the whole party or at least with cloud... if she were just dead in all worlds it wouldn't make much sense for them to foreshadow and hint at a reunion between them in my opinion, especially since the hints have been there since remake part 1 and they've been kind of consistent with it... sleepezi has made a lot of the same connections on his most recent video that he dropped before rebirth released and it's pretty interesting how many things he got right before he even played the game! i think there's a lot of hidden symbolism/foreshadow that it's easy to miss.
she could still end up dead by the end of part 3 for sure but i think she'll have a bigger role to play in part 3 than she had originally. thanks for the discussion though! you guys made some interesting points even if i don't necessarily agree with all of your interpretations of the scenes.
well said
I really hope you're right. Although one could have kinda expected it, Aerith dying again, after all this hope they sew with the party defeating fate and also in the interviews, kinda destroyed me. I mean really, I wasn't expecting to hit me that hard. They designed her so well in the Remake and Rebirth, she filled the dialogues with so much life, that I kinda cannot imagine the party without her in part 3. Idk how to explain without sounding ridiculous but not thinking at part 3 kinda makes me feel more depressed than happy. I think I would be ok with it if she really died at the end of 3, I understand that her death is iconic and important for the story, but I'd really love to have her alive and playable at least in some portions of the game.
@@tonymaccaroni1683This is so true. I just honestly can't imagine playing like a 100 hour game without her because everyone in the OG gets so... somber??? Afterwards. Like imagine playing 100 hours of that but much worse because all the characters personalities were made so much more endearing here and we see her connection with everyone in the party.
I don't think the foreshadowing that she's alive would be pointless if she ends up not reuniting with them. The whole point is to misdirect the player so that we think she has a path to survival but faint will intervene and she will die regardless
The hero Alphreid from loveless is much more likely to refer to Zack, any cloud aerith reunion would make zero sense
Cloud in rebirth only remembers Zack as a friend, nothing more, which means he still is oblivious to what happened in Nibelheim.
I'm less convinced now that it's timelines or different realities, more that it's Lifestream weirdness and Sephiroth is harnessing it to completely break Cloud.
They are really leaning into Cloud's perception of things actually. It makes having Aerith's death scene be confusing rather than sad make a bit more sense thematically. We are experiencing that moment solely as Cloud, not as a separate observer like in the OG, they want the player to feel what Cloud feels.
Interesting spin on it and very ballsy if that's true, I can see why the team were nervous. Potential for some really good payoff.
Agreed 100%. I think it's setting up HUGE emotional payoff when Cloud ultimately accepts the people he's lost during the future lifestream sequence.
This is where my head is at as well. I also think people are generally getting caught up on the “multiverse” thing when it’s really just an extension of what the lifestream is- an amalgamation of all life, and all choices that can be made, all existing as one.
Sephiroth always wanted to become a god, and this extended bit of world building makes him even more of a threat as by the end when he becomes safer sephiroth, he will literally be a capital G God that has control over all possibilities of all life on the planet. This is essentially what he was doing by absorbing the lifestream in og, but here we’re actually told what it means.
As for cloud, dude is so completely broken he can’t tell his reality from the reality of his other selves. When he finally is put back together and realizes aerith is actually NOT alive in mideel it’s going to be something else. That goes for Zack too since he is dead in cloud primes timeline.
I really, really like how they are expanding all of this the more I think about it. It’s ultimately the same story but the additions just really add that extra something that expands the world building.
The wait for part 3 is going to be the worst. I can’t wait.
I don't think so JUST based on the fact that the Aerith we are seeing him interact with at the end seems to have too much....agency? If she faded away the second Cloud turned his back, I would believe it, but she seems apprehensive, she stays on the ground watching the plane leave, and then says goodbye. However she is there, it seems to imply that it IS Aerith and not just a sephiroth induced manipulation. I also don't think that she's 'dead' and sephiroth is leading cloud to believe she is alive because if it IS Aerith he's talking too, I don't think she would 'play along' if it was ultimately going to hurt Cloud.
Agree. If Cloud DID save Aerith and the timeline split then it doesn't make sense for him to be holding Aerith in his arms. He's just rewriting his memory, which is what he's been doing since the beginning of FF7.
Its obviously different timelines? Sephiroth said it himself, whenever someone makes a choice it can create a separate branch. And to drive the point home, we saw Zack diverging timelines on choosing Biggs or Cloud, exactly right after. The point is all these timelines are still connected by the lifestream, and Sephiroth said that it is his goal to absorb and reunite every single world and take control. But you are correct that Square Enix is focusing on Cloud's breakdown.
I think it's a multiverse more or less essentially purely on a technicality. I think "multiple worlds" within the lifestream are the, as Aerith tries to dumb it down for us, "dreams" or hopes, desires, grief, and despair, made manifest. I think those are "worlds" in a sense, but more in service of character exploration than of an actual multiverse plot. Sephiroth's "reunion" of worlds is functionally the same as his plan in the OG. Use meteor to shatter the world, then have the despair (poisoned lifestream dreams/world/etc.) all converge in one point for his use, the same way he absorbed the whispers present at the end of Remake.
Weird as it sounds it almost seems a multiverse in the sense of Tales of Xilla 2. There deviations from the timlines created branching worlds but they ultimately had to be 'destroyed'/erased because otherwise they would basically 'kill' the main timeline. Sephiorth himself says these worlds are 'fated to end' and it doesn't JUST seem like they are dying because HE is ending them. Maybe he means 'end' as all things are destined to end' but it seems the tear in the sky is indicative of a world ending and it doesn't seem like it's all HIS doing, more like a natural life progression of these off branch worlds?
something like heaven in supernatural?
@@ORaikoOI’ve never seen Supernatural but I’ve been describing it to people more like Inception meets the afterlife.
Yeah, NSP is way too deep into the idea of different physical worlds classic multiverse style, while the game makes really clear they are "off", with characters not remembering things, the way townpersons in the date talk... it all has a feeling of purgatory, limbo, real but not real, and all linked to Aerith.
@@ElhoimCrow And having Zack and Biggs, characters that are meant to be dead, as the driving force during those segments really strengths that purgatory feel.
Judging by Trophy data. Out of 100% players who started the game up, 89% of players beat Chapter 1 and 10.6% of players saw the ending as of yesterday
I still haven't played the ending cause there's too many side quests and I GOTTA do them all, so I'm behind. But I have seen it.
I was in the 2.1% of beating chapter 14 like a week ago lol
17.3% as of now. Lol people are really taking their time with this one. I just beat it last night after 120hrs.
I didn’t like the ending at first but the more I think about it I think it’s pretty dope! Part 3 will show what really happened not what Cloud thought he saw!
This is me. But only if they don't drop the ball with the lifestream reconstruction of Clouds mind.
Cant wait to hear what sleepezi will say
Fr wish more people researched as thoroughly as him
watching his playthrough along with Max's. watching a loresman's perpective on teh game is sooooo dope
@@sonickles_frrrr I love how he analyses mid playthrough😂🙏🏾
his theory videos are some of the best imo because he actually takes every little detail into account and i feel like a lot of ff7 theorists end up only looking at the overall story and don't take into account the huge amount of symbolism and foreshadowing sprinkled throughout both of these games (and there's a lot of it).
for example his latest video from 3 weeks ago titled "two whispers" that he released before the game even dropped was right on the money about so many things. he is also one of the few people i saw making a lot of connections between the loveless play and cloud and aerith. the devs themselves asked us to pay attention to how the loveless play and the rebirth theme song "no promises to keep" are interconnected and relevant to the story but most people end up missing these little details.
manes bag is crazy deep fr 😂
I wrote a whole dissertation here:
47:05 It's actually subbed in French, Aerith says: "Everything will be alright" to Tifa - the part we can't hear.
47:26 Aerith in Japanese just says: "This Materia saves the world" - there is no specific reference to it being about saving Cloud. It doesn't disprove the theory though.
I think SENA dropped the ball HARD this time around with the translations in a lot of places, too much to type out here, the most egregious being "promise." -> *NPTK plays*.
Just my take but I believe Aerith's "arigatou" is the same contextually as the infamous Tidus/Yuna thank-you/love confession, Aerith's obligation as a Cetra giving her "Thank-you" in R2.14 so much weight that it's essentially a love confession in Japanese - which Cloud notably reacts to with a shocked face.
First time I'm going to disagree with Babyseal but it's still early days for us all in the wait for R3 so I might come around to his theory. Personally, even if Aerith is dead again, I don't see any outcome that would make sense to me besides a C/A "Return" (title of third game - it's gotta be) with all the cinematography + lore + musical references, it just all points to a C/A ending, it's like the game is screaming it. There's also Kitase saying that he would like a happy ending for the characters after 30 years of working on them and that can't just be discounted either. We know Cloud never stops searching for Aerith in every cameo since 1997 and if Square are trying to use the uncertainty around Aerith being alive/dead to try to emotionally hit us the same as 27 years ago then I really don't think there is any way to make it hit remotely as hard.
I agree though that the specific Lifestream-green effects around Aerith fading away (like when an NPC dies) after the C/A vs S battle does line up with Babyseal's theory, but, the pink-gold/prismatic effect is also present around Cloud and Aerith during this scene and this seems to appear only something has been changed. It was Lifestream-green on the Buster Sword but then at the point of impact with the Masamune is was pink-gold/prismatic, and again pink-gold/prismatic around Aerith and Cloud on the water altar when he tells *alive* Aerith to wakeup - the party aren't shown inside this boundary either. I have no idea what to make of this.
The portals Cloud passes through also show varying coloration. One type is Lifestream-green (and only appears once) and the other, pink-gold/prismatic and appears a couple of times. At the start of Ch.14 of Rebirth Cloud and Aerith have the dream-date then Cloud is pushed out with the White Materia through the flower bed in the church into a white world where Sephiroth taunts him. Afterward dismissing Sephiroth, Cloud falls through a pink-gold/prismatic portal and arrives in the forest where Aerith explains how she must go to cast Holy, then Cloud succumbs to the White Whispers holding him down and falls through a Lifestream-green portal and wakes up with the rest of the party, sans Aerith. The two portals are vastly different in color/presentation it's clearly two different things happening here. Maybe C/A have to pass through a green portal to get to this dream but we aren't shown that part, it's just the fall and then a scene transition. Interestingly, Cloud's attack Infinity's End (his highest damaging non-limit attack) has been changed (from red plasma) to match the pink-gold/prismatic effect, complete with a mini-rainbow, so it seems to indicate it's a move that is strong enough to change-fate.
Fundamentally, there are two possibilities:
1. Square will try to use convoluted storytelling to make us feel like in 1997, by making the audience experience Aerith's death as if we were Cloud experiencing a hallucination.
2. Square knows they can't make us re-experience the loss of Aerith regardless of any tricks and so won't.
Wouldn't it be smarter to rely on the audience knowing Cloud is losing his marbles (and therefore trusting the party's version of events over their own/Cloud's) because it's a 27 year old plot-twist and then have it actually be a revealed upon Cloud regaining his memories and original persona, that Aerith actually was saved in some form. This would keep the audience doubting Cloud and their own recollection for 70% of the game and you'd still get the doubt and isolation but it would make a happy ending possible whilst keeping the majority events the same, as has been the trend in the Remake Trilogy.
My crack theory/fanfic happy ending theory: I think the endgame plot will match the Loveless play with "prisoner" Cloud returning to Aerith. Perhaps killing Sephiroth for good requires Cloud to lose all memories of him and therefore also of Aerith. Sephiroth knowing this has planned for it and therefore his appearance on Loveless St. is him linking Cloud/Aerith meeting to him, solidifying his place in Cloud's memories so Cloud will have to forget Aerith to win. It would be possible to still remember Tifa and the party because they all met Cloud initially without Sephiroth present, but he'll always remember seeing Sephiroth when he thinks of Aerith. After forgetting Aerith, sometime in the future in an epilogue, Cloud walks down Loveless St. and gets offered a yellow flower, the two being reunited. Aerith is now free to live as a normal girl, without her obligations as a Cetra, as she always wanted to be.
These are good notes… 1 quick note is the gold prismatic rainbow effect heavily correlates with Aerith and the white whispers… particularly when she shows up during the fight with Sephiroth and Cloud… that is NOT attached to the “birth” of a new timeline or a deviation. I think the fandom has collectively correlated it that way but it isn’t matching my spreadsheets lol.
Everything else is great commentary and I’m excited to dive more into this stuff
@@schrodingersbabyseal That's a good point, I'm definitely jumping the gun on things. I can't wait for Sleepezi to get through the game, he hasn't made it to the Gongaga region yet and I can't wait to see his reaction to the reactor. I'm also looking forward to the eventual Seal Team 6 with the usual suspects (NSP, Sleepezi, etc.) once everyone has beaten the game.
@@ugh5281 It's my crack theory so it's probably total nonsense anyway but it's fun to take a wild guess. We can only really know post-lifestream sequence (because Cloud will confirm his choice of partner A/T, maybe it will be player choice) but I think there could be a couple of giveaways before that. The theme song (if it's a M/F duet for C/A) and the Leslie sub-plot. If we reunite Leslie and Merle then I'm thinking we'll also save Aerith somehow.
Putting this much effort into C/A specific moments and media (even outside of the Remake project; they kept Cloud chasing her for 27 years) just to go back to AC in the end, seems like one hell of an expensive red herring. Of course it's possible I'm reading too much into C/A but we'll know more when the Ultimania comes out on April 12th.
"Perhaps killing Sephiroth for good requires Cloud to lose all memories of him". Yes, thats what Lifestream Black intimates, and is source of Sepiroth telling cloud he will never be a memory in Advent Children and (most likely) the point of Sephiroth's interaction with Cloud in Chapter 2 of Remake; making Cloud hate him and telling him to hold on to that hatred serving that purpose (with the Advent Children music playing right after). I do not think at that Sephiroth will be dead at the end of Rebirth, simply for business reasons. You can make a good case that the Remake project is just another installment in the battle that started in FF7, but I doubt they are going to unambgiously end that battle in part 3.
This is an absolutely amazing comment and theory. You should make a video on this!
Good point about there not being infinite versions of the characters and to that point, I'd disagree with the Aerith is a spirit or vision...
-Aerith orchestrates Cloud giving her the white materia, so she could summon holy.
-Cloud is the only one to break through the whispers to save Aerith, no one else was there.
-Aerith steps through a portal to help Cloud fight Sephiroth,she doesn't just materialize, and Sephiroth even acknowledges her.
-Cloud is the only one who can see the tear in the sky and Aerith, this implies to me that he can see two worlds.
...Similar to the OG, Aerith will work in summoiung Holy, however now she's doing it from her pocket reality not from the life stream.
-Aerith also never got her ultimate weapon, the Princrss Guard, so she's gonna have a role in the next game.
This also let's the dev's mess with us again when Aerith and her world are eventually destroyed at the end of the game...
...unless the they us multiple endings.
Yeah there's holes in his explanations. I feel like Prince's theory is still more accurate
I agree with you. Also note, the " don't look up the sky" of Aerith was a very intention thing she said to Cloud, afterwards she says "blattering my mouth again, do I ever learn" in a very sarcastic way. I think people clinge too much on the OG of cloud being a nutcase.
@@lukewilson624i feel like prince theory is easier to understand and a easier way of storytelling tbh but I appreciate baby seal view it’s different and who knows maybe it’s correct or parts of it is.
Aerith is 100% real in the final battle of Rebirth, and will return permanently at some point in part 3. I think some are seriously overthinking this.
@@cizzymacShe's "real" in the life stream or an alt reality with Zack similar to their Advent Children appearance.
Bruh!!! Arith did the Final Fantasy 10 sending !!!!😮. At the temple
Pretty much confirmation that Final Fantasy 10 is a direct prequel to 7.
@Runeify
Plus the soldier Cloud murders turns into a fiend right after, these two things and just the fact that monsters are being called fiends now pretty much confirms FF7 is definitely connected to FFX.
@@travisparks9289 While it's actually already been confirmed that X is a prequel to VII by Kitase, they were indeed doing lots of callbacks to that reveal. When the Cetra holograms in the Temple were explaining their past, they called the people that were attacking them "invaders from the stars", which is basically a reference to Kitase's reveal that the far future Spirans went on a galactic conquest and that Gaia was one of the worlds affected. The descendants of those Spirans are the denizens of FFVII.
There are callbacks to other Final Fantasy games throughout Rebirth. Doesn't confirm a particular link to it.
I noticed that immediately. That was 100% a throwback to X and if we get an FF10 remake I will be completely ecstatic. 10 is my second favorite in the series to 7
Truly fascinating conversation and I’ve still got lots to listen to. Well done to both of you
I was very upset at the ending of rebirth but baby seal and NSP gave me a new perspective. Use me as a like button to support these 2 goats 🐐
I believe that Aerith is still alive in an alternate timeline.
When Cloud block Sephiroth blade, there is a rainbow burst of color. That rainbow burst of color only happens in the game during the Zack segments of the games when he makes choices that creates new worlds, or new timelines. And yes, I believe that these are new worlds being created, Sephiroth was clear during the battle between him and zack/cloud. Sephiroth said: Just as world unite, so to can they part. I believe that when Cloud blocked Sephiroth blade a separate timeline where Aerith lives was created, but that timeline is doomed to die if it is not merged with the main one, which is why Cloud sees a crack in the sky. It is not his timeline that is in danger, but the timeline where Aerith lives that is in danger of being destroyed if it is not merged with the main one. Let's not forget that Zack can also see that crack in the sky, as well as Elmyra and all the other who lives in these doomed world. Maybe it is not just the timeline where Aerith lives that is doomed, but the og timeline where our Cloud is, and the reason why he can see the crack in the sky first is because, just like he and Aerith where able to see the whisper first he is more sensible to these things than the others. I suspect in part 3 the others will slowly become aware of the crack in the sky as well as their world is rapidly approaching it's destruction.
To be fair, I believe that it is more a mixt of everything than anything else:
1: I believe that Cloud did save Aerith, and when he did a new timeline was created. The white whisper than corrected this by switching back to the original timeline where Aerith died. If you look closely, when the other arrives to see Cloud cradling Aerith body to him, the scene is from their pov, but more specifically from tifa pov. In other words, it was not from Cloud delusional pov but from hers, and you can see the blood glitching back and forth from her pov until it settles on her being dead. That is why I believe that the Aerith that put her hand on Clouds face and that wake up when Cloud ask her to is the Aerith that lives in an alternate timeline. Realise also that the white whisper are there when Cloud ask her to wake up, the whisper are NOT a product of Cloud delusions since the other can see them as well. Which mean that the multiverse is 100 percent real.
2: I firmly believe that the Aerith by the lake side (with the creepy music) might very well be just Cloud going bonkers or Jenova/Sephiroth screwing with him. It can also be him just being in complete denial of her death.
3: The final cutscene is either her alternate timeline self or simply her ghost from the lifestream. One thing is for sure, it is not just Cloud being nuts cause Red 13 senses her.
In other words, I believe that what we see happening in the ending is a mixture of all these 3 things: Cloud seeing an alternate Aerith, Cloud going nuts/Jenova/Sephiroth screwing with him and Aerith from the lifestream reaching out to him. Cloud's grips on reality and his sanity is more slippery than ever. You can bet you're ass that Sephiroth is going to bank on that to drive him more insane than he ever went in the og. But just like Sephiroth lie about Cloud not really being Cloud and him being just a clone of Sephiroth was proven false, Sephiroth lie about him not saving Aerith in part 3 in order to break Cloud even worse than he did in og will also being proven false and it will most likely turn out that yes he did save a version of her living in another timeline.
Let's not forget also that Kitase said in an interview that he wanted to give the character a happy ending. The multiverse concept could be the way they intend to do it. There is also the fact that many fans would be angry if they did not give the player the choice to save Aerith and give her the happy ending that they want. Many people went into Remake thinking that they would get to live that childhood dream of saving a beloved character from death. If the multiverse concept ends up being just a cheap bait and switch tactics that leads nowhere and everything was going on in Cloud's mind, I don't think this is ever going to be forgiven by the fans who had hoped to save her. They would feel lied to and they wouldn't be wrong to feel that way.
The whole marketing of Rebirth was about changing fate and defying destiny. If the multiverse concept ends up going nowhere, a good chunk of SE fans will feel lied to and that is not good for business. Some fans are already talking about not buying the third game if they can't change Aerith fate in it. Had this trilogy of games been a 1:1 Remake from the get go, this would not have been a problem. But now? You don't give this much false hope to you're fan base and don't deliver...ever. This is the worst thing you can do as a business. So for the sake of profit or just to keep their fanbase satisfied I think they won't have the choice BUT to give us the option to save Aerith. Especially with Zack during the final battle screaming to Cloud: SAVE HER!.
The rainbow effect appears when Aerith shows up in the fight against sephiroth as well... which is distinctly independent of anything Zack has done... Aerith's rainbow effect seems to very clearly denote her activity with the white whispers which are confirmed to be manifested lifestream...
@@schrodingersbabyseal Yes I know, you are right about that. But even taking that into consideration, that does not change the fact that the rainbow colored effect is heavily tied to multiverse shenanigan. It only appear during Zack segments of the games or when Aerith (or any version of her really) crosses the boundaries between worlds. Remember what Sephiroth said to Cloud? That the planet encompasses a multitude of worlds? He didn't meant the planet as much as he meant the lifestream. In other words, all worlds or timelines (even the one where the Cloud we play as is), are either contained inside or linked in some manner in or by the lifestream. And when these worlds dies, they return to it, kind of like when a human die and his ego or individuality is dissolve back into the current of the lifestream. These world also end up dissolving back into it (the lifetream) and they lose their individuality so to speak. That's why Sephiroth said that there is no need to mourn them, because they still exist in some form or another. But I do agree with you that the Aerith that fights Sephiroth in the final battle is most likely the og Aerith.
@@schrodingersbabyseal I believe that everytime an alternate version of Aerith dies, her memories are sent back and absorbed by the og Aerith. Also remember, in the final battle, og Aerith thanked Cloud for what he did back there. So he most likely did blocked Sephiroth blade. The thing is that timeline is doomed if it is not merged with the main one, this is why Cloud is seeing the crack in the sky.
@@EldenRing2023 I do explain this in the discussion eventually. If you listen to people’s description in the slums of what that crack means… it indicates the world is marked for death… this is also consistent with the Materials Ultimania plus which indicates that the yellow galaxy at the edge of creation is “the universe of death”… so my interpretation is that Cloud can see before the others that his “world” is marked for death. Either because Aerith has made him aware of it OR because he now has possession of the instrument by which these worlds are being consumed… the black materia
@@schrodingersbabyseal One last thing, Aerith and Zack are not the only one that can do the rainbow colored effect, Sephiroth can as well. During the final battle, when Sephiroth separate Zack and Cloud, the slash that he makes leaves a rainbow colored after effect, kind of like a wall. It is during the scene where he says: Just as world unite, so to can they part.
I think they fumbled the execution (no pun intended) of Aerith’s death scene. They could have gotten the same convoluted plot across without cheapening the moment I think.
i think the ending was very convoluted and the constant back and forth made things super confusing so i think it deserves its criticisms however at the same time i'd argue that making her death super sad and emotional would cheapen her "death" even more in this case because here after her "death" she appears to fight sephiroth with cloud and cloud can still see her and communicate with her so you don't really feel her loss like in the OG, even if it's aerith from the lifestream she's not really gone, she's still talking and being cheerful so i really don't think they wanted you to feel her "loss" otherwise they would've approached the scene completely differently. that said, i'm not saying the ending was well-done by any means, i also don't really like how they did a lot of things in the ending but i don't think they intended to make her death scene emotional in the first place because you're not supposed to really mourn her at least yet.
plus to me it seems very likely that she will have a bigger role to play in part 3 than she had in the OG, whether it's from the lifestream or her alive in an alternate world (or both) so it wouldn't make sense for them to make her death seem final and then also have her "alive" and playable in part 3 although if we're being completely honest the main reason why they made her death scene super confusing and ambiguous is so that players can be confused and theory craft for the next years lol. in my personal opinion i think her death scene here is not final and if she does end up actually dying permanently anyway it will be towards the end of the final game. this is just my opinion though, i could be wrong.
@@ugh5281the way I see it; the writers always interpret the big twist for the game as the lifestream sequences with cloud rather than aeriths death (which I agree with, this may be unpopular because I only played ff7 OG in the last few years but her death was a product of its time. It was just one of the first games of its kind to do such a thing hence why it’s so popular)
So with the creators comments in mind, I believe they decided to sacrifice this scene for a much more satisfying payoff when that scene happens. They’re going to combine cloud piecing himself together which him also accepting that Aerith is also dead (and probably show the iconic scene in full rather than it being confusing and fragmented)
Like baby seal said, I think the criticisms for the ending are completely valid for those that just wanted answers and a clear ending rather than what they went for, I completely get that. But I think the pay off is going to be massive in the next game personally
They didn't cheapen it, the full effect is coming in part 3
I believe there's a misunderstanding that a player who is unfamiliar with FF7 might be more or less confused about certain elements of the endings of these games. I don't think Zack was put in the Remake's ending with the intention of being recognized by fans (that is, OBVIOUSLY it's also meant as a plot twist for those who know the character), but rather to create mystery about his identity, foreshadowing his importance. In Rebirth, the unaware player discovers that Zack was Aerith's first love and a comrade of Cloud's, who however has no memory of him during his Flashback. In Part III, the unaware player will discover the truth, well-seeded throughout the game.
We are too used to thinking like players who deeply know the lore and story of the game, so much so that we cannot see things the way they really are: will the unaware player be confused seeing Zack? Certainly! And it's intentional by design, he discovers a bit more in Part 2, and discovers the whole truth in Part 3.
My only real “dislike” of the story is that it DOES seem to diminish the impact of Aerith’s death. Whether it would’ve been possible to make it truly impactful, given how many of us know it’s coming is another question. However, because it appears to clearly have something to do with the new multiverse narrative threads, I’m eager to see where they take it from here. Overall, this is a fantastic game and a genuinely impressive achievement, taking into account the size of the whole remake project.
I still think there's going to be some sort of " rule" that says that even in different universes the fate of people is the same. This is why we see Zack face The shinra army no matter what choice he makes. It's all going to culminate with Zack and Aerith being dead in the end, however they will be reunited in the live stream so it will be a bittersweet ending
My prediction for the series after analyzing the ending to Remake is that we're going to get a complete definitive defeat of Sephiroth/Jenova. Two of the key plot points in AC were the battles with Kadaj and co. which we dealt with at the end of Remake with the Whispers fight, and Cloud's geostigma/depression/guilt caused by his inability to save Aerith, which Aerith made a specific point to address in Rebirth. Now we also have this new interpretation of the Reunion not just being of Jenova's cells but "worlds" as well. So I feel like it's setting up a huge climactic battle at the end where once Sephiroth is defeated he'll be gone for good..... at least until Square Enix feels the need to play the FF7 card to boost sales and they retcon stuff or re-remake the game lol.
To me the cloud zack friendship came through plenty via pure chemistry and implication. What bothered me a lot more was how dramatic aeriths death was when the game never takes the time to set up cloud and aeriths importance to each other
The most confusing scene to me was when Marlene tells Zack that aerith can’t wake up in their world because it would mean that she’s been killed by sephiroth and then it shows the flashback to when she met aerith at the bar when the plate was falling in remake. If it’s just a different timeline why does aerith have to die in one timeline to wake up in the other, kind of like Biggs did. Also how did the Marlene of that world know information from the Marlene in the other world? Also they met before we beat the arbiter of fate in remake, so aerith would’ve had to been able to see the future of that world way beforehand as well as the future of all timelines to be able to give her this information.
Gilgamesh was an amazing addition. They even played the Battle on the Bridge theme. Which is FFV. He even calls on the Warriors of Light, which is the team in FFV (and FF1). That's a clear indication that there is a multiverse.
While I do think it's pretty clear they're doing multiverse stuff, just having Gilgamesh in the game does not point towards that at all itself. Gilgamesh is in several FF games and references previous games each time since he himself hops dimensions after falling into the Void in FF5. Him appearing in a Final Fantasy does not automatically mean that game has its own multiverse. He does technically show that there is a multiverse between the different games, but its treated as a joke and is never actually plot relevant.
@@johnbarrett6835
The problem is that we don't know what the rules are of the FF multiverse. You use the word "dimension", but even in "multiverse lore", that can mean several things: It's either the "space" between actual multiverses that link them all, or planes of existence that exist in every multiverse but are unique in themselves.
@@tbrandy1405 I may not have worded my comment properly. You were using Gilgameshes inclusion and reference to another Final Fantasy as evidence of the Final Fantasy 7 Remake Trilogy introducing a multiverse of the FF7 world as part of its story. This is not evidence of anything. For example, Gilgamesh appears in Final Fantasy 12 with plenty of references to previous games. That does not mean that FF12 has some plot relevant multiverse. Yes, Gilgamesh is a joke character that goes between different Final Fantasy "universes", but that has absolutely nothing to do with the story direction of the FF7 Remake project. He's appeared in many Final Fantasy games and is not evidence of anything. To be clear, I do agree that it looks like they're making some kind of multiverse story for the Remake, but saying Gilgamesh is at all evidence of that is just plain false.
@@johnbarrett6835 Again, what are the rules? There is an implication that Gilgamesh existing means that the barriers between multiverses are weakening. Sephiroth himself is interested in the protorelics, and even accidentally summons Gilgamesh in Nibelheim.
How then do we label the FF series? Is each FF in their own multiverses? Are the multiple lifestream worlds we see just "dimensions" within the the FF7 universe? You cannot simply say an item is false because you need to lay down the rules. Which was what I was asking you to do.
Gilgamesh is an easter egg.
This is the best conversation I have heard of the game
Was nice listening to your guys' takes on it, thanks! The bit about everyone thinking part three will be called Reunion made me laugh so much. There's a few things about the ending cinematography that I still think are purposefully made to go either way like Babyseal mentioned. They've wrote it in a way where they can walk it back, but we'll get confirmation when it's out and only then of course.
I'm calling it here, next part is called Reclaim. There's multiple instances of ambient NPC conversation using claim and reclaim as specific language (one notably in the Kalm bar), the preorder bonus was also the Reclaimant Choker, it works on several layers thematically and still retains the two syllable naming convention. It's plain as day y'all, they always make this stuff clear when you do the digging which is so much fun!
Great discussion guys! I think the greatest misstep for me with Dyne's death is that almost immediately after it the gang has a meme fight with Palmer. Such a silly boss fight so close to his death really cheapened the impact for me. They should have let the death scene settle more.
I think the 1-2 chapter expansion of Cloud and Zack’s friendship that NSP is hoping for should take place during a final revisit of the Nibelheim flashback. I wanna play through the entire thing again, but as Zack, leading up to the final sequence where we switch to Cloud and he kills Sephiroth to defend Tifa and Zack and avenge the village. Along the way they could give us more dialogue that Cloud either didn’t remember or simply repressed, that shows Zack and Cloud were in fact boys
Just catching up to this conversation after rolling credits a few days ago. What a wonderful convo, and I absolutely agree about the power of friendship discussion. One specific thing that really got me was Cloud being there for Barrett when he was going through it. This game was so wonderful, and caught me off guard so many times in so many moments that were so powerful and emotional. I really enjoyed a ton in this game.
Hi, i am from asia . Let me translate correctly what aerith said in the ending because the english one is not really accurate.i watch the ending english scene. I didnt play the whole game in english but i believe there are more weirld translation throughout the whole game.
Cloud: Are you gonna be safe going back alone?
Aerith: what if i say no?
Cloud smiles
Aerith: This is Cetra's territory. (In english she said second home)
Cloud: I see (in english he said i guess)
Cloud: but what if something happens?
Aerith: then i will send up smoke.
Cloud: got it. I wont miss it. (In english he said i will keep an eye out) the meaning is smiliar but the original japanese feels more like cloud is more determined to find and save aerith whenever aerith tells cloud she is in danger.
Aerith: i will keep praying at my territory(cetra) to stop the meteor ,so cloud you have to do your best. (In japanese she said dakara cloudo gambateh, but the english aerith said "then i will the rest to you cloud" the meaning is different ,she didnt say leave the rest to cloud, she mean more like work together with cloud, while she is praying to stop the meteor, cloud has to beat sephiroth. Feels more like after she stopped the meteor ,she will be with cloud again to beat sephiroth.
Cloud: i will quickly find sephiroth, and beat him. (In english he only said i will beat sephiroth.)similiar meaning, but the japanese one feels like cloud is really desperate to find and beat sephiroth asap.
Aerith: you promise
Cloud I promise
Its very clear in japanese cloud is talking to lifestream aerith since she said "cetra territory" and they make it very clear cloud did experience aerith death before during her death scene at the altar. Its not a fake illusion. I think the english translation also has the same problem during her death scene.
Do want to point out though that Maiden coined the term The Whispers of Fate, and ends in the words “age of Rebirth”.
Even if not written by Nojima, Maiden was published officially in the Ultimania Omega for the OG. If we’re arguing it isn’t canon due to inconsistency, than Traces of Two Pasts is not canon either, since it retconned the placement of Tifa’s scar.
There’s so many Maiden references in Rebirth and Remake, it’s already canonized. Idk why there’s always been a debate on it. Cloud’s novella in the new Ultimania for Rebirth was just accepted as Canon, so too should Maiden.
@36:30 hmm struggling to follow your logic or point. So the Cloud and Aerith date scene is more about where Cloud is at. Well, where is Cloud at? What do you mean by this? You've presented an interpretation of what you think that scene is structurally about, but none of the substance. What about the fact that Aerith passes Cloud the white materia if it's just about "where Cloud is at"?
For example, my take of that scene: Cloud and Aerith fall into the lifestream and Prime Aerith (the 'one' Aerith that exists 'inter-world') shifts both of them to an idyllic 'world' where they can spend some last pleasant few moments together before her end as a corporeal being across all worlds. She also uses this opportunity to pass her memories/white materia to Cloud to pass to herself in the Prime 'world'
I hope they follow through with the defy fate and destiny theme remake setup and actually have Aerith and even Zack alive in the end. It would be so much more of a twist than just Cloud having a come to terms moment over something everyone already expected to likely happen anyway.
I rearranged my house listening to this. Can't say I understand ff7 rebirth any better, but my house looks nice
babyseal def said it best when he said the lore mechanics of stuff like multiverse are secondary to theming compared to western media etc, i found the ending super powerful and im one to roll my eyes at inclusion of multiverse stuff in general. its not supposed to be taken as direct and literal as like how avengers endgame deals with it. his breakdown of the ending is awesome, babyseal is killing it
From my recollection, the golden rainbow effect is more associated with new Worlds being created because of fate being changed than with Aerith and the white whispers, but that does not mean they are mutually exclusive. The golden rainbow effect is the equivalent of and addition to the Stamps from Remake, a deliberate visual cue for players to follow in order to figure things out, one that I do not believe actually exists in universe, except perhaps to key entities like Sephiroth and Cloud (after Sephiroth give him his "blessing" in order for Cloud to see the true nature of reality without clouded eyes). I would not be surprised if the golden rainbow effect is a double reference to the Wizard of Oz (Follow the Yellow Brick Road, coupled with the lyrics of Over the Rainbow).
My idea is that the Aerith that shows up to combat Sephiroth with Cloud is Lifestream Aerith while the one present in the ending cutsence is the Aerith saved by Cloud when he deflected Masamune. Sephiroth's blessing allows Cloud to see into/being in multiple Worlds simultaneously, which means he is seeing the rift in the sky of the World the Saved Aerith is in; that World is now doomed because its Aerith has not completed the two part checklist for a world to be saved (activation of Holy and being in the lifestream to invoke it at the correct time to assist Holy in deflecting Meteor). To the rest of the party, there is no rift in the sky, since in their World Aerith HAS completed the two part checklist to save the world. To Barret and Tifa, especially, Cloud has gone completely off the deep end, talking to an Aerith that is not there to them. This also plays into expectations people have who have knowledge of Cloud story as it should proceed from here. But all FF7 fans know why Cloud is seeing Sephiroth, but the rest of the party in Rebirth thinks its because of cellular degradation. The devs want you to believe the ending cutsence Aerith is a product of Clouds mental issues, but it most likely is not, a bit of clever misdirection by the devs. One question is just why Nanaki sensed Aerith touching him in the ending cutscene, it could be connected to the experiments conducted on him give him some ability, or it could be an inante sensitivity to the lifestream. The answer to that question would inform a conclusion concerning the nature of the ending cutscene Aerith.
The title of part 3 will be Redemption.
*Gackt enters the chat*
I believe both Sephiroth and Aerith entering the life stream have granted them the ability to enter different time-lines and alter the events that happen within them by using the whispers. Aerith knew that Cloud would fall through the church roof which is why she planted the flowerbed in that exact spot. Aerith knew that she had to die in order to enter the life stream which is why there was a quick glimpse of what would have happened if Cloud protected her. Her dying prevented Sephiroth from giving Cloud that "push" so she could bless him and protect him from Sephiroth's manipulation. Just a theory.
I watched Max play the end live. I feel like emotions and the interaction with the chat threw him overboard ad he became like religious zelot for his own sudden interpetation. I truly hope devs dont change their vision to suit his theory.
I watched him on easy allies like 5 days ago where they talk about theories after the game is over, i cant wait to watch his live reaction to the ending. Ive seen so many OG hardcore fans tear this game to shreds over it idk what to think personally
BabySeal has some great takes. Thanks for having him on!
When you talk about the synchronized Cloud and Zack buster sword sequence, I think you both miss out on an important implication. Clouds mind is still busted and he still has part of Zack’s personality inside his head. Moreover, later when cloud and Aerith fight alongside - you see cloud assume Zack’s battle stance of all things. Therefore I believe that the scene of them syncing wasn’t done purely for fan service but to rather show how Cloud still projects Zack’s personality onto himself.
keep these discussions coming! These discussions came in clutch during the pandemic for me
I felt very confused by the ending, which of course didn’t make for being very emotionally impactful. However, I didn’t hate it: and damn do I LOVE this game so much.
If it turns out not to be a multiverse and all of that has been a misdirection to the player I think it will be pretty unsatisfying because the misdirection would not be that clever in that case. Having sephiroth literally tell us that defying fate creates parallel worlds and then have it not be true would be even more unsatisfying than a multiverse is in the first place
Totally agree with Babyseal and you about the Dyne/Seto moments falling flat but for different reasons. It feels like their emotional impacts were lessened because we never got to sit with what happened. Dyne, in particular, still showed his depression and psychosis, but with protecting Barret from Shinra at the end with his last stand, his humanity still showed up and tells Barret that he’s going to have to carry the guilt for the rest of his life but we don’t have reflection on that. They don’t talk about it. Shinra shows up and we’re put in a chase sequence and ultimately it’s never brought up again. For Seto, all of that was just a letdown in that it didn’t land whatsoever for me. Bugenhagen was a total dick and his way to get Red to not stay was to say he failed. I understand the intent behind it but it came off as a very selfish thing for Bugenhagen to do and say, so it felt like HIS moment instead of Red’s. Then again, we are immediately pulled out of it by getting the exposition dump from Gi Nattak (which was fabulous), but the timing was a major misstep. I think placing that after we finish the chapter or as a capstone outside of the cavern.
SENA literally did not translate Aeriths words where Tifa walks of room and sees Aerith and the players are left wondering what she says. In JP and other translations she speaks and says “Everything will be alright.” SENA did a terrible job of translating.
I think there's a significant counterpoint for the argument of new people being too lost without knowing e.g. Zack.
Assuming Part 3 will shed the "full light" on the backstory just as the original did, new players will get a similar "payoff" as people playing the OG for the first time.
For new players, Zack has been this seemingly important figure which appears everywhere but they have no real background on.
The "revelation" will put him in into context, after he's already been established as a character. I think it's a good handling of him, overall.
Great watch. Thank you both.
Oh and gimmie that endgame fan service :)
I'm glad to see the "alternate/parallel/multiverse" interpretation/sentiment start to turn. It's objectively the incorrect way to look at the story from Chapter 10 forward. The FFX reference was fitting and the more accurate representation of the Sector 5 sequences.
How do you interpret it? Do you interpret it as a thought state? As in, I sit here typing, but in my mind I wish I was at the beach in Hawaii? So that Hawaii state of mind would be another world? Is that how you are interpreting it?
@@ThrowbackGaming1 I think you'll never see the truth through such clouded eyes (slings Aeriths blood into yo face)
People see this changed timeline as best used toward letting Aerith live, but I see it as the best way to make her death surprising, which would've been unthinkable for a remake.
Ive watched a few players go through the ending who arent ff7 veterans and i think they still were able to enjoy the ending and feel the impact of it. I think the ending is amazing because they were able to create an ending and experience that could be enjoyed by both.
Marlene also needs to be addressed. The Marlene that saw Aerith's fate was in the main timeline, not in Zack's timeline, yet Zack still found out through Marlene.
Loved the game.. But I think the world map designs were very hard to navigate through. I'm not sure if that was intentional but I spent a lot of time just trying to figure out how to get to point A and B. I think if there was a mechanic to make elevations easier to access and some sort of jump and glide mechanic the maps would have felt a lot more immersive instead of a really big maze.
After marinating on the ending I have come to the conclusion that the reason why Cloud was crying and holding Aerith in the timeline she survives in was because of the “confluence of worlds and emotions” as Sephiroth explained. Confluence for those who don't know the meaning means to join or merge.
Sephiroth says "And so it begins a confluence of worlds and emotions, Loss, Chief among them" = Loss, the most important emotion. When Cloud stopped Sephiroth he created a new timeline where he saved her in one and not the other. This can also explain why he has the empty holy materia and the black materia at the same time. As well as the Sky of the "doomed" timeline. This will add so much more layer to the story and the possibilities can be endless for something like this.
The Aerith he saved, I believe Cloud is seeing both of those timelines, and Aerith that lived might even be trapped in between those worlds which is why the party can’t see her. But she is going to keep casting holy and stopping the meteor.
Also, they didn’t show her burial scene. Why? What happened to her? Did she just simply disappear because she’s trapped between those worlds?
This is not confirmed in anyways but the conclusion that makes the most sense to me
I think the blank materia will be the black materia. That it retains the power of all materia, to pass on what it holds upon command. Being empty is the important part, materia is memory and Sephiroth WANTS the party and world to feel despair... My thought is that the "Black materia" is a catalyst that will turn that blank materia into a vessel for the emotions it encounters..
Whats more, I think Zack will either find a way back to the "main focus" timeline, perhaps with his Aerith (that the spirit of our Aerith could "pilot" so to speak) at least for one battle... OR Cloud will have to come to terms with who he REALLY was, by denying it until Zack has to intervene, slap some sense into him, and die in the process at the hand of Cloud.
I really want Zack in the lifestream sequence next game 😔 maybe they could even show some memories of them bonding we havent seen before
Here’s my summation of Remake/Rebirth: it’s intriguing, but has no lasting power. It’s only interesting *now.* The original has had such a lasting impact because themes and moments were simple and didn’t overstay their welcome. The new trilogy can often times feel like a slog and when you do get to the “new” narrative stuff, it’s only interesting at the moment. Once the question gets answered, the mystique is gone. You’re left at that moment asking yourself “was this necessary?” It may be hype for some at this moment, but will it be a decade from now? Will the trilogy’s attempts be recognized as the definitive-edition, or will it be the “better” of the compilation material?
Great video, keep the rebirth stuff coming its amazing. Even these longer ones are great
Loved this discussion guys, thank you for sharing your thoughts :) Always the best!
I think my biggest issue with the ending is that this game has some real middle child problems. It’s got the massive job of setting up for a big finale and getting all the pieces in place that it forsakes a satisfying end to the character arcs of the game. The only character who felt truly complete to me was Aerith, which was the lowest bar they had to cross, given this games ending. For everyone else, it feels like I have to wait another few years for any conclusion
The debate on is it a dream or an actual different world is irrelevant IMO. In this world dreams can be REALITY. How else do you explain Aerith giving Cloud materia in a different dream/world and then him having it in a new world and giving it back to Aerith? Is this a Mirror of Erised thing?
You're missing and/or forgetting what lifestream/materia is. And missed/forgot the arc of what happened to the holy materia between remake and rebirth.
I finished rebirth 2 weeks ago, been patiently waiting for these discussions!!
5:47 don’t worry man, nobody hates floatiness more than the KH fandom 💀
The idea of Aerith being there through spirit to keep Cloud from fully losing it to Sephiroth actually makes a lot of sense. I still think in the last game we’re gonna see him come to terms that the water burial did happen since it wasn’t shown here and Tifa and Aerith at that point would be in parallel in terms of two women in his life hiding the truth from him to save him
My take with Rebirth was quite the opposite: the excessive mini-games ("the variety") made me quit several times, including full weekends. It took me 20 days to get the ending of the MSQ, while 14 or 16 I did it in like 5 days and I just couldn't put the controller down. That said, when Rebirth remembers to be FF instead of Mario Party, it truly shines as one of the best.
I really don't understand how anyone could enjoy 20 hours of Costa del Sol time wasting vs the giant final dungeon, which is arguably the real trademark of the franchise.
It sucks the story doesn't begin until chapter 8, maybe 9?
As expected, all important story exposition (the core of the trilogy, a multi timeline tale, called worlds in 7R) happened in the final act (just like in Remake or KH), which sucks.
In summary, everyone has their own "bar" as to what FF should be. For me, it has to be the story at the front followed by combat and finally everything else, otherwise, what would be special about it?
Rebirth is 60% Everything else.
35% combat.
5% story.
PS: I'd be very surprised if more than 30% of players reach the ending of the game. We'll see. I hope I'm wrong. (For reference, Remake is sitting at 32% and 16 is at 49%).
The part I hate about the end segment is that we didn't get the forgotten capital dungeon. It was full of so much mystery and wonder and it just got skipped.
Held back for the next game when Bugenhagen goes there?
Yeah Bone village and Forgotten Capital both pushed aside just so they could streamline players into a 2 to 3 hour boss fight 🙄
@@kingslayer2999 Or moved to keep the urgency in the narrative of getting to Aerith in time?
25:00 so the devs turned the story into a multiverse story for the exact reasons people hate multiverse stories?
I hope that the fight against the Weapons appears around 50% of the way, and Aerith rejoins the party for the fight. I dunno, I just want her back 😭 (She's also so essential to my hard mode run 😢 Synergy-Comet for the lulz).
Synergy+Cometeor is the TRUTH! Arcane ward takes it to the next level😂
@@iamjoehill except you can't use synergy with cometeor, only comet, noob lol
I’ve been waiting for this!!
If the events in the ReTrilogy remain largely the same as the OG game, then what was the point in defying fate?
@agetoki
I think folks just don’t want to accept big changes may be coming in the next game, which is really unrealistic considering we have the war with Wutai and Shinra with Wutai being tricked into being on Sephiroth’s side because of their hatred towards Shinra. The next game will have big narrative changes one way or the other simply because of things like this building up into bigger differences.
@@travisparks9289 I mean Hamaguchi, Nojima, Nomura and Kitase all said they aren’t changing the story in any drastic way.
Thanks for uploading this amazing discussion on CZcams NSP! ❤ I shall watch this too later once I am done with the game! Can't wait to check it out! 🙌🏽🤩🤩✨️
omg I love schrodingersbabyseal. Finally hearing someone talk so succinctly in the exact way I see the game is a breath of fresh air!
I don't understand how people could possibly still see literal timelines and Sephiroth coming back in time from the future but I also see lot of people online who don't see how it could possibly be lifestream stuff. I guess that's a testament to how much SE wanted this to be interpreted in multiple different ways.
That said, I REALLY hope SE doesn't put it to a "vote" and go with whatever theory catches on the most like he suggested. They should really just tell the story they want to tell... though I'm also pretty sure that with them being so far into development of part 3 already, the main scenario has probably been locked in for a long time.
Some things I agree with and some I don't, but nevertheless, I think the conversation was a very interesting one.
*Glenn*
I do disagree about Glenn shouldn't be Cloud's dad. I hope he is Cloud's dad, I think they have the potential to really give Cloud an interesting background of family members and that includes his mother. They have the chance to explain Glenn in his failings and his whirlwind romance with Claudia then all the sudden shirking his duties as a father to run off chasing a dream. We need more definite background on Cloud's mom just as much as his dad. Cloud is the main character of the game and I think it's fair to explore him in that kind of great detail.
We have the chance to explore another broken aspect of Cloud, growing up without a father. We see Glenn's paternal instinct come out with Sephiroth and many think it is the guilt of him abandoning Claudia and his son. We don't know what exactly Claudia has told Cloud growing up in detail other than just a line or two. This is about Cloud already missing a piece of himself by not having his father around, not necessarily that Claudia couldn't raise him, but just not having the opportunity to know and love his dad. This could at to Cloud's final breakdown to learn the truth leaving the thoughts of what could have been. What if.... many things could have happened such as Glenn may have in Cloud's mind been able to protect his mother. We never really saw Cloud get a chance to mourn his mother's passing. With being confronted with his father.... all of that comes back like a Tsunami. Anger, blame, anguish, and sorrow. This would make Tifa's role even more important as she now has no parents left living either. If Glenn is alive somehow... what role would Tifa play in mediating this kind of interaction of Cloud learning the truth?
*Aerith and Zack*
I really hope that Zack can save the Terrier timeline world... perhaps in the end when worlds must part Zack, Aerith, Cloud, and company get a chance to reconcile before Zack and Aerith return to the Terrier Verse to live out their lives. I do agree that they really pulled back on Zack. What we got did not match the hype they put out on Zack. It made it seem like we would get this Laguna style back and forth with Cloud and company and then with Zack and his party even if it would have only been two or three separate chapters. I feel they really missed out on that. Killing off Biggs was a wasted opportunity. They could have had Zack's party including with potentially Kunsel and Luxiere. In some ways I feel like they were trying to dial back Aerith and Zack's relationship on purpose.
*The Compilation*
This was my biggest gripe, while they threw Cissnei in Gongaga and included Kyrie and Leslie, they gave almost no reference to other compilation characters, even in Crisis Core Reunion which they redid for this purpose. We got nothing about Angeal or Genesis, or anything about Rufus talking about Lazard or if he even knew that was his brother. They mention Kunsel in Remake and that was it.
Evan is seems to be MIA... Dirge of Cerebus had Nero and Weiss with Deepground in Intermission and almost nothing became of it. Before Crisis only got some slight nods with the Avalanche expansion and other than that... absolutely nothing unless you notice that Broden looks like Verdot slightly or the Commander in Junon in Red looks like she could be Elena's older sister Emma aka Gun from Before Crisis.
Katana from Before Crisis was from Gongaga and not even one reference. Elfe of course got nothing. It was very underwhelming and disappointing in that regard. I really hope we get more about Before Crisis and the rest of the compilation characters in part 3 including the Multi-player DoC with the other 3 Tsviets Pummel, Argento, and Usher.
*Opinion*
While the game is beyond fantastic in many ways there is still a lot they could do. I had originally envisioned this game being 4 parts as there is a lot to tell and the story beats NSP mentioned are only the ones that they are hitting in the OG and what they have developed in the trilogy thus far leaving many other story threads Such as the Turks/Verdot and his daughter Elfe, Zirconaid, Genesis, Angeal, all the characters from DoC ... if they address all of that too in part 3, I see it being bigger than rebirth. Potentially a main story of 70+ hours. I do hope they change their minds about DLC and give us some.
Building on what babyseal highlighted, it seems that the developers intentionally crafted the storyline with ambiguity, leaving room for multiple interpretations.
This strategic vagueness appears to be a deliberate move, giving the creators the flexibility to gauge fan reactions before deciding on a definitive path for the third installment.
Consequently, it’s plausible that even the developers themselves are yet undecided about which direction the finale will take.
This may be an unpopular opinion but remakes ending was far superior to rebirth, and to go even further rebirths ending actually hurts remakes ending and the next game is in VERY real danger of being a complete mess.
The other guy, (not babyseal) needs to collaborate with sleepezi. Sleepezi is the absolute BEST!!
Love the conversation. Definitely gave me more insight into how Seal sees the end of the game.
I actually found myself very interested in the ending discussion on how SE is listening and trying to appeal and appease the fans (at least here in the West) when it comes to this series and many sequels over time. It makes a lot more sense to me now why they make the choices they make that doesn’t necessarily help the story, but shows the “cool team up” and such that many have essentially wished for and things like that. I can’t say I personally agree with it though. I don’t think the series (or any series, really) should depend on what the fans want but what the stories and characters call for. After completing Rebirth I honestly thought (and still think) they’ll use the multiverse as a way to also appease all fans. I think it’ll be similar to AC’s ending (Aerith and Zack walking into a white light/lifestream) while Cloud and the others celebrate saving the world and agree to meet them someday, but then it goes to show multiple different things from other possible timelines where it shows different happy endings as well. The discussion here honestly made me feel moreso like that’s what’s going to happen. Whether it should or not, I’m not really sure about but also can’t say I’m very excited for it either.
I agree with Seal that Cloud and Zack’s friendship also needs much more depth to it. In the OG, we were essentially left to fill in the blanks with our own headcanons. Then CC happened and one of my issues with that story was that it didn’t do a good job, imo, of developing that. Even here in Rebirth, them fighting together at the EoC and bantering back and forth doesn’t feel earned, whether you played CCR or not imo. Was it cool in the moment, I’m sure for some it was, but knowing what the compilation has shown and told me, it was meh to me.
Great discussion! Can’t wait to listen to more!
I mostly agree with your take, but “listening to the fans” is an almost meaningless take now. For example I’ve seen multiple times people saying they should have “listened to the fans and did a 1:1 remake” which implies that anyone who wanted anything else is not a fan. Ofcourse that notion is the total opposite of what you’re saying is listening to or appeasing the fans. What it comes down too really is that everyone has their own idea on what they want from the story/remake. Some people won’t be satisfied unless it’s turn based with no voice acting.
@@daesong1378 I get that and agree. No matter what they did, they were never going to make everyone happy. To me, that’s why they shouldn’t really try but that’s also a fan opinion as you pointed out, and would be (especially at this stage) trying to appease fans like me.
Still really loved many aspects of the game, and I’ll definitely be picking up Part 3. Just found this part of the conversation super interesting, especially from how it’s kind of been hinted about in other videos I’ve watched and listened to between Remake and Rebirth and wanted to share my thoughts now that it’s been more openly discussed.
@@patriotsfan122480 oh yeah, I also enjoyed the game, even though I’m still feeling unsure about where they’re going with the story, but also I’m sure that the effect that they wanted.
I think the choice they made with remake was a compromise, it allowed them to make changes and improvements, while also still maintaining the integrity of the original game. It’s a respectable compromise imo. People often act as if they could do better or the answer is “obvious” but really can you imagine being the person in charge and people hating or being disappointed in you no matter which choice you made? It makes it no surprise that SE refused to touch FF7 for so many years prior. Can you imagine the pressure? But I always see so many complaints from “fans” as if they expect the game to be specifically catered to them.
The worst one is probably that they should have did 1:1. And implying that it would make everyone happy. It wouldn’t. There’s no guarantee of it at all. Not only that, if they had done 1:1. We wouldn’t even be talking about FF7 right now, it’d be just another 3 year old game. The fact that anyone is even talking about about FF7R right now is because they did not to the 1:1.
The second worst complaint is then making it episodic. And calling it a cash grab. Companies have to make money. They disparage a game when it doesn’t sell, and then also accuse it of being a “cash grab” is making money good or bad? Fact of the matter is, the story is still “alive” because it’s in the works, if it was 1 and done; that would also not be the case.
I’m looking forward to part 3, and I’ll probably honestly be a little bit sad that story is coming to a close, but that is also necessary.
@@daesong1378 see that’s the thing. I don’t feel like they should have to “compromise” for anything. If they want to make changes, cool. If they want to keep it 1:1 that’s cool too. As long as they’re going all in to tell the story they want to tell, I’m sure that meaning will be conveyed well vs a compromise that you can clearly see they don’t want to go all in on, which can possibly lead even more into a less impactful story. And I don’t think if they had gone the 1:1 direction we’d no longer be talking about the game, personally, I think a new generation of fans would have found and loved Final Fantasy VII as they have come to do so with the Remake trilogy. Would they be getting three games out of it, no. But it would still be, and still is to this day, an amazing and beloved story that many would either fall in love with for the first time, or fall in love with all over again. By going with this route at all vs a 1:1/slightly expanded Remake, you’re going to be forever comparing the story told in this game to the original, so you should not be willing to compromise. I say that to mean, if they’re going to choose to change things up, go all in on it so long as they’re sure they can do so in a way that they feel can make the story on par or better then what came before. Don’t make a change, then pull back to follow the original storyline and not really have the characters properly react and deal with the change brought in. And maybe they will in Part 3, idk, but with what’s left to be told and the other strings they’ve left out there to tie up, it’s leaving a lot to chance that it can be sewn up in a way that ultimately keeps the story on par/better then the OG it is remaking.
I totally get what you’re saying about them not wanting to touch it and make a Remake of it for a long time. I also don’t disparage them from doing this for money. Like you said, it’s a business. Everyone’s in the business of making money. That’s just life. Doesn’t make doing things for a quick cash grab any less true, though I personally don’t think it applies to the trilogy so much as it does compilation things surrounding it (CCR, Ever Crisis, First Soldier, etc), but I also understand where those people who do think that are coming from.
You have to remember, the Final Fantasy brand built itself up to be about a battle system that was familiar yet unique to each of its entires, telling a single, concise story with deep, relatable and fun characters, and themes that many could find themselves relating to, with mini games and small moments that many remember to this day. There has not been a single FF entry in quite some time that many longtime fans feel have properly hit on all of those elements. Even the latest entires of the Remake have had their issues that, among fans, still feel somewhat universal. I remember when 16 came out and Resonant Arc had Seal, NSP and ProfNoctis on for a round table about their issues with the game, and I believe it was Seal who said “I think what most people want from Final Fantasy is for it to be good” or something like that. It’s a very broad and objective thing, but also in my opinion, very accurate. One of the reasons so many people wanted a remake of Final Fantasy VII is because almost everything about it was not just good, but great! Especially when compared to many of the issues the masses have had with more recent entries, some of which may not have been in the devs hands. Oh, and sequels that would then go on to take away from the original stories themselves. 10 took away the world map for what began as the “hallway/linear” maps it would become more known for as they went more full scale with its characters and world but ultimately still told a tight and compelling story, 12 had lots of development issues and the story we played was likely not what was originally intended by Matsuno, that pushed back 13 which was built for the latest system and needed to be learned on how they would build for it and led to its own decisions and issues, and then 14 had a bad launch, which they were ultimately able to turn around, but 15 also had a horrible launch that yeah, while it sold well, didn’t keep its high player base because of its bad first impression, and 16 which tried to also compromise its RPG status for a more action-style combat system that ultimately doesn’t seem to have appealed highly with the audience it was trying to go for, while leaving the long time fans more on the disappointed side. They all compromised in some way, and fell short of meeting the expectations that the fanbase it had built itself on held it to, while also failing to meet a larger/younger fanbase it also wanted to appeal to, resulting in a brand that isn’t as strong now. And those are just the mainline titles. It’s obviously not what they set out to do, but it is what happened, that in part now has the longer time fans feeling like “the quality and thought behind the game and its stories don’t matter anymore. It’s just a cash grab.” It’s not entirely true, but if someone feels that way I can’t say that feeling is invalid.
That being said, if they hadn’t gone this route, we likely would have never gotten this action-turn based battle system that was created for it. Or the world map they set up for Rebirth. Those are things that may not have been properly developed if it wasn’t for this series, and those are things that have been almost universally loved by everyone who has touched these two games and likely will be for the 3rd entry, and I personally hope Square uses these for many future FF entires to come, just tailored more towards whatever stories and themes those games wish to tell.
@@patriotsfan122480 meh, appeal doesn’t mean anything, a good work doesn’t necessarily appeal to everyone, and a shitty work doesn’t necessarily fail. If we look at pop music, it’s pop music for a reason, it’s typically neither deep or full of nuance or effort, but it sells because it’s easily digestible by the masses. Therefore it’s a mistake to judge if a game is good or if it’s the creators compromised or not based on fan appeals. Typically a stronger fan base is more niche, meaning of course that if a work appeals to more people the passion of its fans is proportionally shallow.
This reveals a lot of problems. It also means that reaching a new audience cannot also be used as a measure of work. It also means that a more generic appeal would more likely reach a newer audience, a wider appeal.
Of course all this ignores the fact that the creators vision itself could be one way or another. Which we can’t know. It’s a mistake to say that the creator compromised without even knowing their intention. For example if their vision is a real time action based combat system, but they make a turned based one, they’ve obviously compromised.
In this case my original use of the word compromise is referring to how they left the original story as canon while making a new story. As well as them choosing to follow the overall narrative of the main story while not being bound to it. That’s a compromise between two obvious choices.
As far as brand strength, it depends on what a person views as being integral to the brand. If Ferrari started building cheap economy vehicles it would damage their brand because it’s anthetical to it. I don’t believe that turn based battle is integral to final fantasy as a brand, it was there before final fantasy and some games still use it. Prior to final fantasy 7 all the games used 2D sprites, which have their charm. But had they stuck to that, FF7 would never have had the impact that it did. It was the use of 3D graphics and cinematic cutscenes that made it stand out at the time. Everything else had already been around, levels story telling etc.
Not to mention if there’s any lose threads with deepground, it’s gonna be a little crazy
My biggest gripe was how they handled Dyne. It could be argued the emotional impact of Aeriths scene was a bit weak too.
I think aerith with link up with zack somehow and be playable in part 3
she tells cloud shes getting back with zack and then his mind shatters and he gives the black materia to daddy sephi.
Something interesting about the Gi tribe was them talking about how they made the black materia.
They took materia from the Cetra and twisted it with their negative emotions - their pain, their suffering, their eternal torment, and spite for the planet for rejecting them in it’s embrace.
“Purest of Materia no more, with pain and suffering made Black”
It makes me wonder about Sephiroths speech about a confluence of worlds and emotions, and Clouds possession of the Black Materia at the end of the game. Like, have the negative emotions of all of these dying worlds been somehow imbued or merged into what was once the “purest of materia”? Did Sephiroth just create another black materia for some reason?
Kind of a shot in the dark, but I feel like this stuff isn’t just some throwaway extra lore, like it’s gotta be there for a reason.
If Sephiroth is able to come back to life after being killed by cloud and dumped into the life stream....why can't Aerith?
She actually can. But it would be something like the trio from AC. It would be her pulling the strings of a puppet of something like that. Its in the old novels.
@@slayer1156 Right, the only way Sephiroth is able to appear is because people have his cells injected into their body right? Aerith doesn't have that
@@ThrowbackGaming1 Not his cells, they have Jenovas cells which is what Sephiroth and Cloud have, but I get your point
@@ThrowbackGaming1 Cloud also has Jenova cells altering his mind. Does it mean, that he is immortal?
Wait wait wait... Cloud doesn't know Aerith DIED!!??!?! OH man that could be HUGE!!!!
actually one thing that could rule out most of the timeline confusions about aerith living/dying is that what if the price of completing the prayer to call on Holy is actually the life of the Cetran who is giving the prayer ? In the OG this might have been masked by the fact that she was actually skewered by Sephiroth but in Rebirth, even when saved she still die and we still get the same materia dropping scene and music.
If thats the case then in every scenarios as far as Sephiroth is aiming for he was already late on killing Aerith, further enhancing the idea of yes you can change fate by deflecting the killing blow but she needs ( or wants ) to die either way so it doesnt matter.
They really ought to make another DLC before Part 3 if only to take off some of that load - the best thing maybe being to touch on that cut CC content
Going to bookmark this but looking forward to listening in the future 🙂
I still think there are multiple timelines and those timelines are connected through the rift in the sky which is why Aerith can be there, they also said that Loveless would play an important part in the story and there are many references to the main story maybe even spoiling the ending.
The rift only appeared after the merging of worlds which is Sephiroth goal which he couldn’t fulfill because Cloud didn’t despair, there is not only one person with one soul too since Marlene, Kyrie and Elmyra are alive and well in Zack’s world.
Zack reaching out to Cloud having the terrier to me meant that’s the “canon” choice while helping Biggs was the alternative future, I don’t think such a big mistake would be left (maybe the one in Junon was but on Zack timeline I doubt it).
I’m 100% with Night sky prince here as the only way to explain this is with a multiverse, there is no way this is just the Lifestream at work specially after Sephiroth explaining how “timelines” work.
Yoo I felt the same exact way about the “embrace your dreams” thing that they did, funny thing is my nephew who came into ff7 through crisis core absolutely loved the reference but me who has been with this game since 97’ was like WTF cloud has NEVER in the entire ff7 compilation done the “embrace your dreams thing” it didn’t ruin anything for me but just made it VERY AWARE this just fan service lol
The nonsensical rambling that goes on around the 35 minute mark is wild to listen to. "the pug represents Biggs, not Zack's choice to save Biggs. The Shih Tzu represents that version of Cloud in that moment." Like, what?
The most common interpretation of the interlude segment so far is that Zack's choices create new "worlds" represented by the different breeds of dog. Specifically this was in NSP's last video theorizing on the ending. I am arguing that since the "interlude" world is fleeting one, comprised of characters with specific connections to Aerith... it's not a "real" world in the same sense as the "beagle world". The mechanic by which that world operates is the lifestream, which is the memories of the living beings that occupy it, that isnt a made up mechanic of the lifestream... it's consistent with every compilation description... all of the ultimania... and Nomura's very verbose musings in the Advent Children documentary. Each stamp breed seems to thematically connect to a single primary character.... Pug=Biggs...Shih Tzu=Cloud...Naked Jack Russel=Johnny and of course Terrier=Zack. I don't think this is particularly far-fetched within the confines of what we've been shown.
The more I hear his thoughts, the less I like his theories.
@schrodingersbabyseal
Personally I think we need to look back to Remake and asks ourselves what narrative function did Stamp have throughout the first game, he was used as a plot device to tell the player they were going in the right direction since Avalanche had appropriated his image to give directions to there Allies, thus at the end of Remake when we see a different Stamp our minds should logically conclude we are seeing a different timeline since Stamp is universal for every character. The same holds true in this game the different Stamps represent different worlds, not the characters like your theory is trying to relate, otherwise Cloud wouldn’t be seeing a different Stamp in the dream sequence he’d be seeing the one he is used to, the beagle Stamp, and Zack would always be surrounded by the terrier Stamp. I know this team can be inconsistent on lore in the past but they were very obviously showing the Stamps off in both games meaning they are guideposts for us the player so we can keep track of what timeline the characters are in by looking for which Stamp appears, it’s very telling we don’t see the dog at all for any of the scenes after the battle with Sephiroth despite Stamp being one of the last things we saw in Remake, it’s so the player is lost about which timeline Cloud and the group are actually on now. At least that’s my theory I could be barking up the wrong tree here!
Love hearing you both
The worst thing about this game are the VR battles. They are stupid hard. They make no sense being that hard. They make the VR battles in FF7 Remake look like a cakewalk. I genuinely wish they would make them easier.
The presence of Zack undermines Cloud’s story.
I feel like there was a fair bit of rushing. Like for example at every turn cloud does something shady, no one is like yo why are we still trusting him. I guess theres just not much in the others questioning him its always "yeah sure cloud we trust ya" And its kinda weird.
Pretty sure they do talk about cloud mental state in some parts when they're split up.
They do at points, but its just so casually glanced over idk@@kei7540
The issue isnt that it that they dont notice, its more so no one is like "yo this guys a bit of a flight risk yeah?" Like they just so casually accept trusting him after seeing all the stuff hes done. Feels like they could have developed that part a little bit more perhaps , those small parts sort of feel rushed over , maybe its just me idk.@@kei7540
Barret literally sucker punches Cloud in the Gongaga Reactor lmao
I believe the Cloud that walks through the portal to save Aerith from her fate, is a different Cloud we were playing as previously. I believe this Cloud is from the timeline in which Aerith lives, which is why he is at peace and is seen smiling.
Here’s another potential mindscrew with this. What if Aerith is just dead, full stop, and Cloud’s visions of her are produced by Jenova? The Remake has made certain to mention Jenova’s ability to impersonate others in several occasions and we have proof of it being done through visions of Glenn Lodbrok to Rufus.
In the temple I believe they show that she is capable of screwing with peoples perception of reality