Why do Indycars Turn Right in a Straight Line?
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- čas přidán 10. 08. 2021
- It's something that us Euro people can't understand. Why is the car turning right but going straight? And to some, when it comes to driving oval cars in games, they can be percieved as being broken and the devs have put too little effort in. But there is a good reason for it.
So let's see why Indycars appear to be turning right in a straight line, and why they do this brain breaking setup work.
Enjoy! And remember to like and subscribe for more!
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Yep. I've become one of 'those' CZcamsrs with those thumbnails. But hey, they work... Annoyingly...
I'm also using rF2 because the Indycars are setup better with the asymmetric camber.
Hey Aidan, I don't suppose you were ever planning to do a video about the great Ferrari walk out??? I've always been curious about the details of Enzo's demands and relationships with his workers.
Just in case some people don't know, Indy Car is mostly road courses, and will use a setup more familiar to F1 fans. It's not like the car is all cock-eyed at Mid-Ohio.
I first experienced this with NASCAR in one of their games years ago (I think it was '09). The car would automatically push to the left. Great on turns, shit in a tight pack on a straight. And they have ANOTHER element to their cars: The tires are actually DIFFERENT SIZES. It's a relatively minor difference (10 mm from what I can see), but it also helps to push the car to the left with the ovals.
You know, I've run into so many people who look at me sideways when I explain why you need positive camber on an oval setup. Well done!!! :)
You must have run into some weird people 😂
Check out the full body offset on Jim Clark's Indy Lotus 38. The chassis is way to the left.
As a kid back in the 1860’s, I received for my May 28th birthday a plastic model kit of that Lotus and built it with the optional asymmetrical suspension after having watched theIndy 500 that same Memorial Day week race.
I was just at the Music City GP and talked to one of Chilton's mechanics in a hotel bar about this very thing. Apparently, there's a lot of misconceptions around it. He told me that the primary reason for the wheel to have a left bias/trim is to reduce driver fatigue, since its a lot easier to hold your arms in a (relatively) level position going through a 2G+ turn. Also interesting, they use a different steering ratio for ovals. The road course steering rack uses 7 teeth, whereas the oval setup has 6.
Even IndyCar road course setups are not entirely symmetrical all the time. If one of the tracks on the schedule features more right hand turns than lefts, teams will add more negative camber to the left side and vice versa. Quite interesting and even though you think it may compromise lap time it is actually quicker sometimes! Also teams won’t do it if it’s like 6 left and 7 right. It’s ones where its like 9 rights and 4 lefts.
I've done this in sims (only a slight difference), on most cars, for years and the difference in feeling is negligible, but gives a pretty substantial advantage for longer races.
Thanks to the gain of a tenth or two per lap, working the outside tyres less (especially helpful if the track surface is boiling), so less wear, easier braking + turn in for corners in the direction your car is biased towards etc. it almost feels like cheating when others don't do the same.
Really helpful for FWD cars too, as you can get away with a much stiffer/tighter setup without burning the outside front up as much.
I always assumed that IRL teams would do the same, and I'd still be surprised if this is restricted to oval racing (although less dramatic figures eslewhere obviously) or just INDY and NASCAR
My road car also does this! Although I think my car is just broken, it’s not strategic…
Those potholes will really screw up the setup. lmao!
My partner's people carrier was always trying to drive in to the oncoming lane.
Scared the shit out of me.
The Yugo comes with that as a baseline feature lmao
They should have one race on the indy car calendar that is a clockwise oval, just for the spectacle.
There used to be an 1.5 mile oval called Trenton speedway in New Jersey, they didn't race clockwise but Trenton had a right hand kink on the backstretch, similar to what the old Brooklands oval in England had but in a smaller circuit with less banking so not near the speed that Brooklands was. It was nicknamed the kidney bean since it shape resembled a kidney bean. The last IndyCar race was held there in 1979, and the site of the track is now a UPS shipping warehouse. I would love to see an oval with a right hand kink like that be built now.
Sprint cars run stagger meaning the left side tires have a smaller radius than the right side to aid in turning left. Think of it as rolling a beveled cup on its side (greatly exaggerated of course)
Speaking of ovals, I wish that IndyCar would run the Lausitzring again. That oval track is beyond cool.
I think it'll end up happening if IndyCar keeps becoming more popular in Europe. They could make more than one weekend out of it too by also running the road course.
I don’t think Lausitzring will host IndyCar because of Zanardi almost loosing his life there. If certain safety measures were taken maybe but teams don’t like going outside of the US too much. They used to three or four times. Once for Canada which is still North America and then São Paulo which is still reasonable for where the teams are based, Surfer’s Paradise in Australia and finally Motegi in Japan. They stopped going to Japan because of the earthquakes that destroyed the oval beyond repair and São Paulo fell through after three years.
As well, you may not know the difference because of IndyCar’s weird history but what races at Lausitzring no longer exists as that was the CART ChampCar Series. After teams split in the late 80s early 90s, can’t removed when sorry, two leagues where formed , CART and the Indy Racing League, the IRL. Why they split was based on their views of the philosophy of open wheel racing. Tony George, IRL Founder and former owner of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway thought anyone with enough talent should be able to race in the Indy 500 and series while Cart wanted talented drivers with money. IRL wanted to stay inside the states and CART wanted to be more like American F1. Their calendar consisted of way more road courses and the occasional European oval and that led to them going to Lausitzring and eventually never returning.
If you want to watch the history of American Open Wheel Racing, check out Empty Box’s video series on it or any video for that matter of fact. It’s a really interesting story with lots of big egos going head to head.
Won't happen. The oval turn 2 is in a poor state of repair and the track has no safer barrier installed
@@viniciusbraga9881 Yeah it’s one of the reasons that killed CART
@@artnew6739 All CART and ChampCar series records are still considered official IndyCar stats, that was one of the condition of the merger when the two series got back together. So I don't what you mean by "what races at Lausitzring no longer exist", I assume you meant the races that happened at Lausitzring no longer exist in the record books. but that is not true, those wins and points are considered officially to be IndyCar points, along with all the other points, races, wins, and titles that happened in the CART/ChampCar during the split. That is why Sebastion Bourdais is credited with 37 IndyCar wins and 4 championships even though he got 31 wins and 4 of those championships in CART/ChampCar. So officially for all the years of the split there were two IndyCar champions. Empty Box did one of the best video on the split I have seen, although I was watching at the time it all happened being that I am 41, I was a huge IndyCar fan at the time the split happened and I was team CART all the way, screw Tony George and what he did to IndyCar.
That seemed like a 2 minute explanation but then I remembered how easy-listening your videos are, thus flying-by so quite quickly.
On some F1 tracks, some teams do asymmetrically setup parameters other than tyre pressures alone. Not as extreme as Indycar, of course, but some suspension elements are asymmetric by fractions of a degree. Slightly different torsion bars for roll, asymmetric toe, asymmetric chamber.
At least that's what some teams used to do. Some technical journalists say that that is no longer the cause, but I refuse to believe it.
Over a race distance, asymmetrical setups will provide a relevant advantage on tyre management alone. On top of that, a few tracks with dominant corners will benefit from it by keeping a better aero attitude on such corners. Some teams don't bother to do it due to time constraints, but benefits do exist.
This is fascinating. I never knew that they ran such setups, but they make a lot of sense if you think about it.
I remember Adrian Newey talking about his time in Indy, and the car 'looked like the accident already happened' due to setup
Came for a question I wanted to know for ages, got a god level set up guide. Thanks
I’m an idiot so I play Project Cars 2 on controller with Indycar’s at Indianapolis. My aggressive driving style doesn’t help for going through corners because I’ll have a little slide every time, if I had a sim rig, it wouldn’t be that bad but because I’m on a gamepad, it means a basically have no room for error. I’ve had the same driving style for over 10 years now, I’ve definitely gotten used to it and it’s made me have so much respect for the 70’s F1 drivers like Ronnie Peterson
lol just realized you were running the Askew car. He deserves another shot tbh.
As someone asking the question under the grosjean video, thank you! I did ask about suspension setup but got no useful responses.
You should also talk about how solid rear axle cars (Nascar) adjust camber and toe.
Specifically rear camber and toe? I mean it can be done with some trick hubs and drive flanges but its outlawed by most series. "Rear steer" is a thing though - manipulating the suspension geometry so the whole axle steers. Especially dramatic in dirt cars but there's some application for it on asphalt as well.
Maybe a bit more technical but asymmetrical caster makes a big difference in oval cars as well. Since caster acts as a self centering force on the steering having different amounts on each side can cause the car to pull one way or another.
You know, I've always wondered why the wheels of Indycars look cock-eyed on the oval straights, and now I know. Didn't help me when I ran a digested Indy 500, spinning out of turn 4 with a handful of laps to go - but I was running an Indycar with a road course set up. On Forza 7.
With all the driving aids on, using an Xbox controller, and on chase cam.
Because I'm a wimp.
And a coward.
I need to take a closer look at Chris Haye's oval course cribsheet.
Thats fun. I like your explanations.
Congrats on 66.6K subs !
Great video, covers the differences well. I believe the main reason for keeping the hands straight is it's just easier than turning left for what would be most of the race.
With Grosjean, he specifically said he wont race on Super Speedways like Indy and Texas, so thats basically anything 1.5 miles and up. As far as I know that hasn't changed, Gateway (or whatever it's called now) is a standard Speedway at 1 mile and considerably slower which is why he's decided to race their (average speeds of about 170mph, compared to the 230+ average you get at Texas and Indy).
Anything less than a mile, like the 5/8ths Iowa is considered a short track for comparison.
It wasn't initially just the longer tracks. Before a bit ago, he didn't have Gateway on his schedule. That was only added like halfway through the year. Initially, even that was a bit much for him. His position is definitely changing, he's even gone so far as to say he's considering Indianapolis next year.
Even money Roman will be at Indy next year. The man is a racer and he can't neglect the challenge, now that he's comfortable with the cars and how the series operates.
@@brenanconroy4052 Nope, right from when he announced his deal to race for Dale Coyne he said no to Super Speedways but was curious about Gateway and would make a talk with Coyne and make a decision about it at a later date. Coyne himself said right at the start that if Grosjean wanted to race at Gateway he'd make a third car available for him.
The car pulling to right is also done for the driver's feel as you transition into corner. Trust me that tug to right really makes rotating car to left so much smoother. If you go back and watch Fernando Alonso's in-car at Indy notice his steering wheel has none of this, for 500 miles!
Love your channel, been watching for years. Not a fan of text while watching the videos. You don't repeat that information and it's really hard to read and listen at the same time. You put good information on the texts, and it really stresses me out lol
How exactly can those commenters not understand it is a setup thing to make the car turn left better. Good lord we're done for.
Schumacher wasn't a man. Plain and simple!
Look at Fernando Alonso he did great in Indy car.
awesome video
They’ll also run asymmetrical wings as well more down force on one side. It’s crazy how just turning left can be so complicated.
"Why do Indycars Turn Right in a Straight Line?" Cos we aint a bunch of Commies!!
Gobbles
I love oval racing :) indycar is brilliant so love you showing this
Unless it's Colton Herta and he turns right while he turns left.
Oooooof lol
Oi!
@@F-Man wot?
@@Hesitatedeye I know you!
@@F-Man sadly this is true
What's funny is they also seem to have the steering lean to to right if there are more right hand corners on a road circuit than left hand corners, and vice versa because of the no power steering thing. (Though I don't think they do that with the camber.)
A better question might be why F1 cars are symmetrical. After all on a clockwise track there will always be more right turns. 🤔
At one time, back when they only raced on one road course (Riverside) they used to use longer suspension arms on the right side of the cars and shorter ones on the left in an attempt to help with the left turn only tracks. Unfortunately in caused some nasty side effects that made that impractical so they abandoned that idea after a few years.
4:55
that is a fact. I don't remember the year or driver, but someone at Iowa one year had their setup where the the wheel was turned to far left in the turn and the force of the air pushed his paddle shifter and knocked him out of gear mid corner.
Keep in mind too Grosjean is running probably the most complicated IndyCar oval outside of IMS at Gateway.
My answer to euro snoots was always the same. If turning right is so much harder than left, why don’t the F1 drivers enter Daytona and dominate? What are they scared of?
Set the car up for the most traction in the high speed corner where the tires are most deformed and you get to carry more speed into, through, and out of the corner. That is where you win races.
I thought I knew why. I didn’t know why. I thought I knew how. I didn’t know how.
Is it optimal to set up a non oval car asymmetric for a lap is either of the clockwises? Sure you lose when you turn left, but if you mainly turn right? Or is this too high tier, i just put them shocks hard...
So basically the setup is to not steer the corners but steer the straights
Yeah, it was quite....staggering... how many folks were asking about that. Though some drivers set up their wheels so while it looks straight on the straights, it's still slightly to the right. Personal preference and all that.
When he said "appears to turn right", I thought it was about how Indy drivers exit corners on an oval. The wheel is locked so far left that it shoots the car towards the inside wall, forcing them to turn right towards the outer wall along the straight.
Thats actually for aerodynamics. The wake off the car interacts with the walls and creats drag so when they come off the corners they move towards the centre of the road to avoid this.
Is stagger still a thing in Indycar? I remember Adrian Newey explaining it in his book, but since Aidan didn't mention it here I thought maybe someone could update me on that topic.
I’ve got Newey’s book but not had time to read it.
@@AidanMillward The Indycar part starts on page 64 if you want to look that up specifically.
But if you're like me, you probably prefer reading it as a whole .
Back in the Newey days, Indycars had bias-ply tires and pressure could be used to alter the stagger. Today with radial tires, the pressure doesn't change the circumference the same. Anyway, Firestone molds the tires with a fixed stagger amount specific to the oval track being run.
The right tires camber and toe actually at a very different toe and camber then the left tires mainly because of oval are only left corners so the left side actually requires less setup the the right which will have a of the weight of the car because well weight distribution
Correct me if I gave a bad explanation
I thought it was related to centrifugal forces... Good to know
According to Marcus Ericson they don't just go left, they also go up.
Every time jimmy streams the Iracing indy500 there's a ton of people telling him the steering is broken in chat..
I used to be a big Nascar fan going back to the 80s. I pretty much lived inside the Long Beach GP track when it came to town so Nascar gave way to Indy. (Did a few laps in a 2 seater Indy car. The brakes. Like hitting a tree....) I am right there with some of you. Ovals... Are fairly boring. These days it's all road racing for me. F1, GT don't care I'll watch any class and oddly enough Semi Truck racing.
I have a rubbish f1 calender opener idea cota as the season opener because i live here not in Austin Texas or Texas but in America
Ericcson forgot about this and still won.
Well they only do that on ovals. Not on road courses.
next video: why cars turn right when u turn it right
Oh, if you Euros want to get baffled by oval weirdness, look up dirt Late Models and Modifieds. The cars are full-on skewed to one side.
Then look up Supermodifieds and the insanity that they saw in the 70s...
Another video you should do is why dirt track cars slide around corners. Just a thought.
How many of you commenters have actually been on a racetrack in actual competition at any level?
I always wanted to know this thanks
Never thought about looking up before no?
@@rajjy1976 I did but the response was always simplified
Honestly, with Indycar fans getting snooty towards EU watchers about why Indycars are set up the way they are was more catharsis than anything. Not saying it was right, because it's not because 9/10 it's an innocent party. But when you hear, "Dur just turns left there's no skill" from European (usually F1 fans), when someone reveals they don't know something, some people want to pounce on them for it, even when that individual is innocent and just curious. Another case of the obnoxious members of a fanbase turning another fanbase against them.
I wouldn't expect F1 people or anyone outside the US to understand ovel racing. Especially because everyone's default saying is "Dumb Americans" (Yet none of them has the balls to say that to our faces because they know they will go home in a body bag). Racing in an ovel takes just as much skill to race in as road or even street courses. Drafting works better, you have a spotter letting you know what's going on, you have to find different grooves on the track that works for you instead of being in a single train with other drivers, saving your car from spin outs are harder, dealing with crashes are harder, getting into the pits is more difficult. Besides aren't all tracks just ovels with more turns?
Lol isnt it primarily caster?
0:37 Shows a quote from Schumacher saying IndyCar is a "step down" from Formula 1
0:58 Wonders why IndyCar fans would be "snooty" at European ignorance towards their sport
HMMMM
Indycars are the only reason I still have a SkyF1 subscription.
Because they can’t drive more than 5 mins without hitting each other 😂😂 for the record I love indycar
Wtf...? I just tried to write a comment saying I'm glad you're covering Indycar and that Indycar doesn't get the respect it deserves and people don't give the drivers as much respect as f1 drivers, simply bc an F1 car is faster.... Basically I wrote how Scott Dixon is a far better driver than half the F1 grid and when I hit the little triangle button to upload it, I got an error message saying "Comment contains an invalid argument"...
WHAT
THE
FUUUUCCCKKK??!
CZcams is literally the thought police now!
That's scary. You're not allowed to have an opinion anymore apparently that doesn't agree with CZcams?
Not a valid argument?
CZcams thinks mazespin is a better driver than Scott Dixon, Will Power, Felix Rosenqvist, etc etc.
Fuckin CZcams... Literally telling you that you don't have a valid argument?!!?
Because here in America were always right....
You just gave American INDYCAR fans a new reason to make fun of British racing fans
You can remove American from that post. I'm an Indycar fan from Europe and this was a state the bloody obvious video. I'm sure others probably have the same view
@@SparksF1 I was referring to how brits always make fun of Americans
and you brits are damn snooty when it comes to F1 and newbies..
Brits are all of Europe now are we? Awesome!
As an American who watched both NASCAR and IndyCar long before F1, I still don’t understand how people can watch oval races on TV for hours on end. (Edit: Being at the race is probably a much different experience.) The street circuits are far more entertaining IMO-unless it’s Nashville, because that was a mess.
Its something about having cars side by side for 2 hours, going 200+ mph with the slightest mistake causing a massive wreck. Its not for everyone but thats the reason I watch the super speedway ovals.
Their have been some classic oval races that really stress what they can be. 2015 Fontana, 2016 Texas, 2017 Pocono, pretty much every race at Gateway. I find them more hit or miss than road courses though, all of the races at Pheonix and the most recent races at Texas have been particularly bad.
Long oval races are like 200mph chess. In order to truly understand the indy 500 you have to understand the complex world of oval pit and race strategy. Once you can understand the strategy behind the race and how it is quite literally constantly and unpredictably evolving then oval racing takes on an entirely new life.
@@terks43 I understand the general idea of said strategy, it’s just that it’s personally not as interesting to me over a 3 hour period on TV. I’m sure being at the race is different, and I would love to go see the Indy 500 some day.
It’s kinda like how some people say watching a full 3-4 hour baseball game on TV is boring, and prefer to watch it in person.
Just wait until new Euro oval fans start watching USAC and World of Outlaws sprints on dirt track and lose their minds when there's 3 different tire sizes on one car as well as different cambers and tow angles at all 4 corners.
Also the fact that the apex doesn't really exist on the dirt. You just kinda drive towards the wall and throw it sideways right before. (I know there's a lot more to it, but that's what it looks like they do to a normal person)