How I Would Learn Top Lane (If I Could Start Over)
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- čas přidán 28. 04. 2023
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Id argue that this is the most important thing to learn period. I am a jg main who just reached diamond by abusing diving big waves into reganking rebounding waves.
I agree wave control is a top fundamental but win lane lose game is too real with shutdowns + bad macro. I personally think post laning macro play is the biggest hurdle.
@@user-kq6ju6hc1w depending on your champ you basically have 2 option after t1 turrets fall, ladder strat or split push. Ladder you just shove waves and rotate around the map, perfect for champs like akali for example, split push is just pressure turrets when you know the enemy team cant collapse on you and get ur team to do other stuff with less pressure (like clearing some vision, grouping mid, getting dragon etc)
@M I think you are missing the point of my comment. I'm arguing that regardless of role, you need to understand what wave control and manipulation is.
Second, I don't find what you are saying to be true. Most of my games are decided by the first 5-8 minutes of play. Post laning might be an issue in the lower elos but people generally understand that the early game is the most important thing.
@@user-kq6ju6hc1w as a top lane in low elo mid game you can just constantly split push on most champs and move over to the team when enemies are missing, or just move back/reset. Its only when you get to high gold this will really start to get punished somewhat consistently to the point where you're throwing by doing it
@@Financialguide2023i agree being high silver for most of league you really dont start to get punished until you start touching gold players. heck one of my challanger friends watched my games and told me what i was doing wrong. anthor thing you can do is rotate and help your team get ahead if your already ahead like bot or midlane
I loved the differentiation between resetting and rebounding
I had an impression that crashing a wave on the tower would immeadiatly be a "pass to recall", but the differentiation from a small wave to a big wave (and most importantly, the delay on the next wave, that is what ultimately makes it work).
Sion is S tier because he doesn't need to know any of these strategies because his kit is built to prevent these types of punishments. "Nice I pushed Sion out of lane twice, I can just crash it because his teleport is on cooldo-" *SION ULTS FROM BASE AND CLEARS THE WHOLE WAVE*
With that knowledge you'll peak at a certain elo as a Sion main.
Silver
@@jonny1990664 Mid gold maybe. Almost every silver player is actually a gold player, they just didn't play 1000 games yet to reach their proper rank. Riot wants to give the appearance of climbing just so they don't uninstall the game and instead keep playing.
@@SorakaOTP462 of course not lol. it's so easy to get out of silver
@@SorakaOTP462 1000 games? wtf. If you need 1000 games to leave silver, you're not a gold player
one small issue: if you dive sion under tower and you both die, hes not going to lose the wave lmao
That is why you proxy the next wave before backing after the dive.
Skill issue
@@adamnagel7436 He said if you both die. How're you gonna proxy if you're dead xD
He will still be disadvantaged because darius will come back to the wave earlier and have full control over what he wants to do with it, so still worth to dive
@@TheQuackleDKZ your also playing sion duhhhhh
I love how it’s sion and sion still catches the wave with the int passive
In a real game Darius kills Sion well before needing to dive under turret.
@@adamnagel7436 As a Sion main, I can confirm this.
I'm a total beginner and I understood nothing lol
same
Didn’t understand it either lol watching again to try and understand
using sion for this example is especially hilarious cause his R being a discount teleport and his death passive completely shake up how all this works
this channel is like the khanacademy of league.
absolutely insane how comprehensive this guide is. i got to plat without ever knowing this stuff.
Very nice guide! I think the one thing they forgot to mention that I see more often in my games is that supposedly in stage 3, if you are the green one and choose to go back to base after pushing the wave under the enemy's tower, when you go back to lane despite your advantage for the item your opponent will be lvl higher, so you need to be careful
Absolutely love the way this video was structured from the simple and easy to understand graphics (red vs green) and quick recaps durring the video. Makes it way easier to follow and doens't force me to watch somehting multiple times.
The best thing I learned from this video is to play a manaless champ that has a heal ability so you could just stay in lane for ever.
tryndamere is a champ for you, or garen xd
You mean instawin champ Vlad?
I forget to back when playing kled
I'm watching your channel around a year , i've learned so much from you and i climbed from g4 to d4 , you guys are incredible ❤
I freakin love you dude, I struggled for years to understand what I was doing wrong and just like that you manage to make me stomp litteraly all my laning phases, thank you so freakin much
I watched a lot of their videos and I can confirm that this video is one of those videos that are a must to climb, Good luck on your grind guys💪🔥🔥
Theres one more thing you can do after crashing a big wave: harass as they farm. Especially if you're a ranged champion. Or someone like illaoi. You can punish for every single ranged minion they go for. Thats why you never give the push to ranged champs if you can prevent it
I’m new to League during Season 14, I don’t think you understand how helpful this was for me! I’m currently learning Gwen and I was struggling to understand why it felt like I kept losing lane and through this video I discovered that not only was I making the bad plays in Stage 2 but because I wasn’t aware of this rebound to reset gameplay I wasn’t taking advantage of when I could trade and when I could recall
This was super helpful! Thanks. I need to figure out on top of all this how to CS better
Thank you guys for amazing content❤
this is the most useful video for top laners i have seen so far
I'm saving this video to watch several times until I memorize this. Thanks you very much.
can you guys make a video about playing top when lane is unplayable? sometimes you just have to leave lane and roam because you cant lane but it can be really hard to navigate correctly
It is very very very complicated to recover from a highly losing position and learnings to do it is not very useful as you will have minimal impact anyway.
The best is to learn not to get in that position in the first place.
Or to do nothing when losing and watch your teammates play their game and to learn win games you have great impact on.
Often time, I've found that if you are healthy enough to invade the enemy jungler (look for him, and potentially force roaming on you), if you die doing that you will have probably caused more chaos than staying zoned or forcing ganks elsewhere.
Other solution (a bit cheasy), is to proxy before T2 and just tank minions (in order to force the enemy to break the freeze assuming they don't have a lot of wave clear).
Both strats are done to break a freeze.
As a returning player after four years, this is a pretty cool video to have popped up for me.
Sweet! Needed this
bro i hope you have a good day and God bless you cause this video really useful for me
How does the first successful rebound/recall affect next rebound, for the other player? Let's say both players are aware and utilising the concept, so sion has more hp/mana, and darius got off the first rebound and returns to lane with an item advantage successfully. Sion's wave is supposed to be at his tower, building up off of darius' big wave's crash... Rebound advantage is with sion at that point, but is that advantage enough to mitigate/counter an item advantage Darius has?
I guess my question is, how do you pull off a successful rebound if the other player already managed to get one... I mean it would be similar if Sion died, whether rebound crash happened or not. Darius has item advantage and priority with zoning off, by extension of item advantage... How does that work? Or is minion advantage and rebound advantage(position near tower) enough to mitigate item advantage?
Sion may also have a level advantage as well since he didn't recall. Depends on the situation, though. If he's low on hp/mp, Sion may have to push to the next enemy wave then fast-push before Darius gets back so he can recall. Just have to make sure the wave will crash into Darius's tower and not accidentally help him set up a freeze.
What is the correlation between rebound and wave management like slow push, fast push, freeze?
This is actually the most valuable skill capped video.
this is super helpful
I am a jg that didn’t understand wave states at all. This is huge advice
wow that was worth it day 2 in LOL newbie and it was knowledgeable and practical will do this subconsciously despite the mode keep it a habit thx 🙂
I have a question. I have just started ranked and I was wrongly placed in silver II due to my performance with Lux (mastery 7) in the blind games. I should have been placed in iron because I am very new to the game, and now everytime that i play ranked my team just loses and I get super flamed. What can I do, for now I just tried to contact the riot support
im gold and not a good player but i guess for now just lose games till you get placed in the right elo. watch videos to help you out understanding this game's mechanics!
13:50 what should i do, if sion clears this and freezes here? should i back? or try to break the freeze for him
very well explained even for a new player
this is very true... wave management soooo important.
incredible, ty !
i'll watch even though i'm not top main
It works for every lane, in top lane is just more evident because the lane longer than mid and is a 1vs1
Its generally a gppd videos, but the examples are poor. In 13:48 , usually Darius should tower dive and trade to deny farm, but the opponent is Sion, who can still get farm after he is dead (his zombie form). So tower diving is not a good option at all. If I were Darius, I would just fast push and recall.
I call this concept “offense and defense in lane”
I think it’s way more intuitive than red and green player. but same exact concept
offense - green
defense - red.
it’s like football. when you’re on defense you have to play differently than on offense.
focus on conserving resources and mitigating damage.
defense is basically when the wave is pushing.
if you die you lose the whole wave and the whole game tbh
offense is when the wave is pushing
you should be looking for trades to set up a dive (ideal) or 2v1 with a big wave.
literally the exact same thing that the guide said except less detailed
@@lefroste6370 i’m saying I call it “offense” and “ defense” instead of red and green
I think that’s more intuitive
Which alternate reality is this where you have time to back and return to lane after crashing before the opponent has time to push the wave into your tower?
Usually I crash the wave, back, buy items and leave base quickly but the opponent has strong wave clear and deletes my wave before my backing animation even has time to finish, and then they shove that wave into tower making me miss an entire wave on the way back to lane
Question: Around 8:28 it shows the 2nd goal for each player at stage one, and it's to take a big winning trade. But isn't that stage 2 that is showing? Since it's in the middle of the lane and Darius has a lot more minions than Sion? But he also talks about in stage 2 that you shouldn't go for trades as the disadvantaged player (red player), and should sit back and let it crash and farm under tower. Just a little confused on this part.
no
No because a big wave can occur in stage 1, Taking a big trade in Stage 1 will mess you up in stage 2, for both players.
7:35 that's me after flaming the jungler
11:46 i feel like high elo players always dive with a big lane even if they dont get the kill the enemy ends up low hp having to hard push or end ip getting frozen on
Ive had a game like this where i was 3 kills ahead but still ended up behind in xp bcs my champion was a slow pusher
Any tips?
Can this be used in any lane too mid and bot?
Man im struggling with league. Idk if its the pressure from all the toxic randoms i join, but im new and am feeling overwhelmed by the many strategy plays we are expected to do. I tried telling my team im new and trying to learn, and they just tell me to quit the game lol
Oh, another wave management guide ? Who would have guessed ! On a serious note, its really true and good concepts, but so similar to all the wave management guide you already have out there; a bit funny.
This one seems more coherent, though. Definitely sums it up nicely.
and yet most players still have 0 clue about wave management. they are right in saying that if you learn this you can pretty much win any lane until mid-diamond
as a beginner I hate it so much that the red player is not red on the map, just the icon
Hi, I am very new to this strategy. What I dont understand is, why do you say that on stage 1, Darius should stay in the minion wave in order to prevent it from crashing into turret, but in stage 2 you say that Sion should back up and just let the wave come to him? Isnt that the same scenario but on the other side of the lane?
Also you mentioned at one point that Darius should've froze the lane instead of pushing it to prevent Sion from CSing. Why isnt it better to push it once Sion recalls, so he will lose minions into turret (or you can actually take some plates) and then you recall and wait for the lane to push to you? It doesnt make sense to me to set up a freeze in that spot. Thanks for clarification!
The different being Darius only had a single wave of minions to defend against and is trying to zone off the Sion so he can start a slow-push back to Sion's tower. Sion, on the other hand, has like 2 waves of minions coming at him so it would overwhelm him if he tried to stop them unless he managed to not only thin the wave but also keep Darius from killing him in the process. At that point, it's easier for Sion to let the wave crash and then farm the minions under the protection of the tower.
As for the second example, if you fast-push the wave into tower the moment the enemy recalls, it creates a reset (even waves). If Darius sets up a freeze, he doesn't get to recall, but now Sion's waves are getting eaten up by Darius's waves and it's sitting comfortably just outside of Darius's tower. Now, if Sion gets too close then Darius can just run him down the lane and kill him, or it sets up Sion to get ganked if he overextends.
Another option there is if you have TP, you can set up a freeze and when the enemy recalls, you can recall as well then TP back to lane while the lane remains frozen near your tower. Then you can continue the freeze until it breaks which denies the enemy laner a ton of farm.
Should I be getting the minion advantage or just wait for a rebound to happen to me?
Is skill capped mobile browser friendly? I can’t see much of the info on my phone
This is THE video I’ve been looking for. Crazy it’s 2023 and this exact info is not in an in game interactive tutorial imo.
new player experience is absolute garbage in general tbh
So this entire thing is based around melee vs melee. What if you're fighting a ranged in phase 1? In this example the darius is at an advantage because he's close to the tower so he can't really be ganked and can more easily cs and trade. But if you're fighting a ranged you can still get harassed super hard and not be able to CS while to me feels more like a disadvantage... Sure the enemy ranged champ could get ganked, assuming your jungler/mid notices and comes to help. But as far as 1v1 I think that the ranged hero has advantage all the way until the minions are directly under your tower and the ranged can no longer harass. So how do you plan rebounds around fighting ranged champs as a melee?
Im confused how u start setting up rebound
This channel is goated coming from a costing 0/2/0 toplaner!!!
The amount of theoretical knowledge to apply in real time is quite massive. I'll probably need a few games to learn how to exactly calculate the speed at which waves will be evolving.
Which are the biggest differences in the other lanes?
Can tell for mid: 1/2 lane length between turrets = crash happens earlier, so lesser time to build up a wave + mostly ranged + having to be more careful since you can be ganked from both sides out of 6 different paths instead of 2 without turret dive (with dive 8 instead of 3 while that path is more dangerous for the ganking jungler in mid). Meanwhile it's often ranged matchup who can break your build up minions easier (last point often also goes for bot I guess)
At around 19:17, I'm pretty sure Sion's decision to stay is the right play. Enemy jungle position is unknown (note that enemy Lee Sin is support and their botlane went down the same time as your botlane who leashed). Both junglers are pathing top, and Sion needs to ward tribrush, stay back enough that he isn't gankable but still be in xp range of the minions, and keep track of Jarvan as he takes scuttle so that he can rotate if enemy jg decides to contest. Sacrificing tempo and a better lane state to exploit what may be a better play, or to simply prevent an absolutely game losing state (Sion recalls --> stage 1 goes into effect --> Darius rotates to 1v2 your jungler) is probably the better play to take here. This is especially true because Sion has teleport to win back tempo.
You are relying on your jungler in soloqueue. Just take the free base and don't coinflip your lane on your jungler being competent
Ignore the noobs around you. Take the 100% payout, rather than gambling for some jg prio that if happens, is a coinflip and if doesn't, puts you at a disadvantage. Basing after crashing 3-4 waves is ideal almost all the time. Do this over a large number of games and you'll see. Don't let one or two bad games where your jg makes a dumb play impact your thought process here. As you climb higher, like after D2, jg is NOT going to contest a 1v2 at level 4. It's just stupid.
I think what you said applies only if you are either duo with your jungler, or he has already asked you to get prio for a possible scuttle fight. If neither of those scenarios are true, then just take the free cheater recall.
wow this was awesome
Yk its funny that sum1 suggested me to watch this video when I alr knew majority of this off my own experience. Some of this should be common sense if you look at laning and teamwork from an eagle eye perspective, I said recently that the mid lane should take leadership of the game and command laning and playmaking (although thatd be something jungle is supposed to do bc they can set up ganks etc.) But my take since I main asol and I can fly across lanes etc. I have easier times setting up kills and plays I can also ward jg freely and bully my own lane freely. It was funny watching this and being asked what to do and knowing exactly what I should do when laning but even if your winning ur own lane and doing better it comes down to communication and teamwork.
A good team communicates even without typing its sum I picked up alot
Please make a video like this for adc
step 1: become pdf file
If i could start over, I would tell myself to pick malphite to neglect any learning curve (macro/micro) and end up in d1.
To be honest, i didn't quite understand why do you use the same footage at 6:31 and 9:11 as the example both for stage 1 (where as you said, taking bad trade can loose lane for both green and red players) and for stage 2 (where taking bad trade is bad for res player only, because green player can fast push even after a bad trade)
It depends, all these stages mentioned are actually fluid, for ur question, if you lose very hard the enemy can freeze ur wave (stage 1 explained), but if you lost a bit from the trade, it won't matter for the green player cus he can just fast push and recall for item (stage 2 explained)
Can we have more advanced (diamond) videos?
The irony here is amazing
I don't even play lol PC and wr now bcs of work but I still watch ur videos and somehow try to apply in MLBB which is a very different game and it works😆😆
What is that red side bot cooking?
we need a 10.1 Tier list
the most important thing is to teach yourself how to group, i can count countless time where the top laner prios farm over objs and most of the games are lost
You only group for objectives, all other fights are absolutely useless
When is it that you should crash and then proxy the wave?
Depends on the champion, singed and rammus love to do it level 1 ofc, but generally it's when you have a large advantage over the enemy toplaner. The benefit of proxying is 1. You get all the minions 2. Your opponent is stuck under tower catching waves and thus can't affect the map 3. You pull pressure from other lanes which can help them build an advantage. If you're weak enough that you'll die in a 2v1 versus the enemy jungle and toplaner, you're more than likely to just die, but if you have a lead and champ that allow you to push that advantage, you can. Your other option is also to just roam and affect other parts of the map more directly, but this depends a lot on champion. Shen probably wants to roam with ult, whereas mordekaiser can probably push that lead knowing his ult gives him an advantage in a 2v1. It's also matchup dependant, so it will somewhat have to come with experience and knowing your champs and matchups. A lot of that is general but I hope it helps at all lol
so what if your opponent just pushes so hard your unable to reset the lane
laning phase is a chess+tug of war then
Super guide pour la topoane , je commence a mieux dominer mes matchup.
(Les hard counter sont toujours compliqué parcontre)
I wouldnt do anything said in the video. I would thin out the wave if i was darius, just enough so i can freeze the wave near my turret and then bully him and not give him any farm and wait for my jungler to kill him. then i would push it out to crash into turret so he loses farm or if i cant i would leave it frozen and recall and come back or tp back
Im bronze and I just played a Round using this knowledge and I completely stompt my enemie.
Wait, what's the logic behind looking for a reset on stage 1 as Sion if you can just recall instead?
Sometime there´s no reason to recall, either you´re full HP/mana or has no gold to spend, so you have the option to try to reset the wave. In the video specific case recalling would be a no brainer, but it´s not always the case, also it´s match up dependent, in somecases even when on the advantage side, you still will get beaten by enemy, imagine if it were a Nasus vs Darius. Darius can easily beat nasus on early trades on stage 2 even when on defensive side and so you don´t want you wave to rebound at all if possible, but try to keep it near your tower.
Even if sion dies on the dive he will just kill half of the wave or even all of it with his passive lul, good champ...
If he dies lol. Unless Darius is brain dead he is gonna farm Sion the entire laning phase
@@adamnagel7436 Or Sion is brain dead and overextends. It's not hard to bait out Darius's W and stay inside his Q. Also no long trades. It's a hard lane but it's doable as Sion, especially if you don't have a jungler who comes in and feeds him.
Don't get me wrong. One wrong move by Sion and the entire laning phase is properly screwed.
nice vid
Cool guide. BUT… wtf is Lee sin sup???
Hello I went in a game to try this against olaf, he killed me 2 levels down no ult no nothing when i was half an item up. This guide didnt help me win that game
so this is how every enemy adc fks my lane, my god!!!
hey when can we expect more educational videos for master/grandmaster elo? :D
Powiedział byś mi o co cho tu? Nie umiem anglika
@@Sluggerpuncher nie chce mi sie czasu poswiecac bo nie gram linii dla pedo, ale tu kilka ogolnych punktów:
jak przeciwnik ma duzy wave to nie chcesz sie z nim bic ( a ta duza fala sprawi, ze bedzie sie pushowalo do niego, gdyz to standardowa mechanika fal minionków) = w kazdym etapie pushowania fali, jedna ze stron ma przewage.
(etap 1)Jak linia jest blisko dariusa to moze sie bic, uciekajac szybko pod swoja wieżę, lub ścigać go przez całą długość linii, jeśli masz wyrobioną przewagę w lvl/zdrowiu, plus ciezko cie zgankowac, a siona latwo. I w tym etapie 1 nadal nie chcesz dać przeciwnikowi zresetować. Wtedy nie podejmujesz dużych, przegrywających wymian, bo nie podejdziesz do minionków
I mean if you're at that elo what more can they teach you...
@@anshnanavati I assure you, master players tend to int even more than gold ones, they make a lot of mistakes as well. I also wish i knew what to do when my toplaners go 3/10, 5/16, 0/12 (those are real games btw) >,
@@mateuszsobieski9434 game is hard at this point is it ?
i do this every time and winning my lane than look at the map my jungler is 1/5 , adc 0/4 support 1/7 what the point of wining lane when half your team already gave up the game ? basicly losing games with S almost every game
I only came to this video to say one thing from the thumbnail, I miss instant q Darius.
sending this to all my jgl mains who dont understand how to gank
in low elo this wins you lane everytime
From a D2 player - there shouldn't ever be a stage 3 of a rebound. If your wave meets enemy wave right in front of his turret, you're doing something horribly wrong because it leaves you in a gankable spot. You fast push waves to sync the wave crash timer at a point where enemy wave has not yet arrived in their tower. If enemy tries to be annoying and hold it with no minions on their side you take a big fat trade and they can never contest the crash. Stage 3 of your video is something that you should actively avoid in your games. If it happens, just leaves you vulnerable to ganks.
Correction: I agree with the tower diving aspect - in case you have jgl pathing to enemy to help with turret dive, that scenario would make sense. But not in isolation unless you're so ahead of the enemy that you can solo dive but then you should actually be looking to 2v1 as well.
The thing I hate about Skills guide is that they do not cover ever situation and the fact that its not free to just "check out"
Funny you’d assume I have a tower at 9 minutes as my jungles is 0/8 inting in the enemy top because I didn’t want to ban malphite
Freezing the wave exists as well. I rather starve my opponent of cs exp gold and force them to fight me . Only exception is if they bring a ranged toplaner in which case I rebound the wave quickly to their tower forcing them to either move back to cs or all in me under the minion wave. My only problem is when there are at least three people trying to gank me under tower while I’m above 50% hp. No one on my team realizes until I die and the enemy gets tower with rift herald. I can’t even go to ward cuz I know they are there and if I move one pixel to ward, I get jumped on.
Using sion as an example is a poor choice because sion has passive and you can never trade 1f1 for wave with him he always gets the wave in passive if you dive him
yes but the important is the concept not the matchup your openent not always going to be a sion
@@JoaoSousa-fn5gy eu sei mas é que foi uma decisão horrível pegar gameplay do único campeão que isso não vai acontecer pra explicar um conceito
So every 3 waves i go back?
I think these champs are a terrible example as, on one hand, Darius is the kind of champ that will win most trades anyway and on the other trading deaths against Sion is never worth it as he can still clear the wave when he's dead.
Hellos I completely abandoned top lane and my winrate went from 48% to 58%
Best guide ever
This strat is so useful! But if you have a Nasus it will not work, just leave the game and accept the penalty. You will not win.
Id pay 1000 dollars if i could wipe from my memory everything related to League. So i could actually have fun again playing. Now its like a machine task list that rare alters
Me who is bottom of the barrel iron despite being Level 200 in league: Ah yes, I understand (proceeds to get every question wrong at the end).
I got a kill in the first 5 minutes of the game w this
Only counterplay against a Sion is dodge.
Honestly, pick a bruiser auto-attacking champ against Sion. I'm a Sion main and the hardest opponents for me are those who can just auto-attack me to death. Warwick, Sett, Darius, Irelia, Gwen, Fiora, Aatrox, etc. He's easy to counter as long as you're not squishy or ranged.
Why teach with a easy matchup like darius vs sion. Use something like impossible one. Darius vs Vayne. Darius vs Yorick. Darius vs Kled.