'75 Triumph Trident T160 - Engine Still Smoking!!!
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- čas přidán 7. 04. 2024
- I rebuilt the engine of this Triumph Trident T160 recently and although it ran well, the engine was smoking badly. The general consensus was that the piston rings hadn't bedded in properly (as is sometimes the case with Tridents especially) and they would require replacing and possibly the barrels re-honed. However, having done all that and reassembled the engine (again) the damn thing is still smoking! It would appear that the piston rings/bores are not the problem but something to do with the cylinder head. I am therefore just beginning to strip it all down for the third time to see if I can eventually find the source of the problem.
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Paul Henshaw is the man he knows British bikes
I had this issue in the early eighties. It was smoking, so I stripped it down and had the bores honed, with new piston rings, valves and guides then took it to the IOM for Mike Hailwood's last TT, but it was still smoking. I stripped it down at the camp site (!) and found some sealant had got into an oilway form the cylinder head, which eventually forced the oil down the valve guides, just like yourself! But that wasn't the real reason. I remember going up on the mountain from Ramsey Square and not being able to see the bottom of the hill! I eventually took it to Clive Humphries, a Triumph specialist in Coventry for an assessment. His report was that out of the whole engine and gearbox, there were only two bearings still serviceable. So a complete rebuild, and no smoking whatsoever!
In the end it was a design problem - with the engine being effectively one and a half Triumph 500s cobbled together, cooling was an issue, with the centre cylinder running hot. The solution from Triumph was to run the centre cylinder rich!!! In addition the exhaust clamps were a heat trap, so worn vales and guides was regular issue.
The Trident, particularly the T160 was a fantastic bike when it ran, but there were so many issues because it was bodged together to try and compete with the Honda CB750. Swopping the gear change to the left was another such bodge, requiring the clutch to operate via a pushrod running the full width of the gearbox, with the pushrod being little more that a knitting needle, so the bike was constantly afflicted with a dragging clutch!
Engineering wise, it wouldn't have actually taken much to make the engine water-cooled, with twin overhead cams. But that wasn't how the British Bike industry of the time did things!
It's easy to say now, but I would have reinstalled the oil feed pipes one at a time before removing the head and seeing if the smoke reappeared. That way, you might be able to see if it's the inlet valve(s) or the exhaust valve(s) causing the smoke problem. I admire your patience
Jeez, I feel your pain, Chris.
You say the valve guides were replaced as part of the rebuild. This has to be a significant factor in the oiling problem.
For years, Triumph drifted their guides into the head with a cursory quantity of proprietary sealant between the head and bottom shoulder of the guides. At some point in the late sixties they realised there was a problem with oil seepage between the guide and head and specified a neoprene o-ring to be fitted to the underside of the shoulder of the guide before it was pressed into the head. This was a known problem - oil being sucked into the combustion chamber between the outside of the guide and the head. I've no idea who did the work on your cylinder head or what they did when fitting new guides but, from what you've described, I reckon this could be the problem. Oil is being drawn in down the outside of the guides.
Yes, had this happen on two different heads. Check those valve guides.
Hello Chris, I have spoken to my brother in-law as he has worked on several triples in the past. He is down to one triple now (1971 I believe), anyways he mentioned the following as he has experienced this exact same issue. If when removing the rocker feed oil lines and plugging the feed side your smoking stops then obviously oil is "pooling" up in the head. Oil has to return down the 6 drain holes in which I believe you mentioned some go down the push-rod tubes to lubricate the lifters/tappets. All three gaskets: Head gasket, rocker box gasket and the gasket between the barrels and the block all have very small holes (the oil return holes) that MUST align just right in order for the oil to return back to the sump for return back to the tank. If these holes (even just one) are plugged OR if any of these three gaskets or a combination of the three gaskets are incorrect, bad gasket, etc. then the oil will not return. He mentioned to check these gaskets closely/inspect them at each assembly stage. Also, need to verify all the return passages are clear. Hope this helps. I can pass onto you some documentation on this if you like. If so, please leave a way to contact you. Talk soon. Mark
Many thanks. One suspect is definitely the oil drain holes - but because they can be a problem I checked they were clear several times during assembly. Note that they have to align between the head and the barrels as there are dowels locating the drain holes with each other. But undoubtedly the bike will burn oil just as it is now if they are blocked in some way - the oil fills the valve guide pockets as it can't drain away and when it overtops them oil will go down the valve stems into the combustion Chambers. Thanks again.
@@Chris.rooke150 I understand what you are saying, maybe poor oil down the return holes (if possible) with just the barrels on now, as is and see if you get return? Then work your waly up, with the head on, rocker boxes, etc. I am sure you will find what is going on, looking forward to the next video....
Thanks. 🤞🤞🤞
Chris. Just a suggestion before you start to remove the head, why don't you just remove the rocker inspection covers and with a hand oiler pour oil on each valve spring pocket?
This will help you observe if the oil is drained to the crankcase or not.
Triumph experianced labour problems in late 60s early 70s,hence quality suffered.
"They all do that, sir." Have a friend who spent years, and many pounds, trying to sort his T150. It's still off the road.
Chris, I had the same problem with my low mileage T160. I went through the same agonising disappointment after a rebuild as you, and then I checked the valve guides. I found both inlet and exhausts were significantly sloppy - poor Meriden quality unfortunately. I spoke to Norman Hyde, and they sold me replacement (not factory original) guides. The inlets had a groove machined on the upper end, this was to locate the BMW style valve stem oil seals (on the inlets only).
This has cured the smoking problem - caused primarily by the engine sucking oil from the rocker box into the combustion chamber.
In addition, s similar effect happened on the exhaust side, where the positive pressure of the exhaust pulse pressurises the rocker box and hence the crankcase. So my T160 doesn't weep oil after a good thrashing anymore.
It made such a difference, that I did the same thing to my 1969 T6 Trophy, which has always wept oil when ridden hard - it is now essentially oil tight.
The guides and seals provided by Norman Hyde were not expensive, and have fixed both bikes.
Chris, I never worry about a little smoke until I get about 250-500 mi on a motor. During the run-in process, I never get heavy on the throttle, and I find a gradual hill on a back road and in 5th gear low rpm put strain on the motor, not pinging. If i see oil I re torque the base nuts, head and rocker boxes in that order. Usually, I have to re torque about 3 times in those 250 to 500 miles. In a unrelated issue I never use composite gaskets as they blow out easily, so I only use Copper head gaskets. I have never had a blown-out copper head gasket! Put a few miles on it hoping that everything seats in and keep an eye on your oil pressure during the break-in period. Good Luck these triples are lovely but they can be a pain.
Hi Chris. I had the same issue with mine and it turned out oil was building up in the rocker box on one exhaust valve pit because it couldnt drain becuase the rpevious owner had blocked the base gasket with sealer..,. I cleared rthe blockage and the return worked again.. no smoke
Try pinching each oil feed in turn with a pipe pincher. At least then youll know if the problem is on the exhaust or inlet side.
Chris I had a very similar problem with my 930cc T150 some 9 years ago. Went much same route as you, and finaly took the head to Spaceseal in Wolverhampton who sealed head with a resin.... Low and behold my problem was solved. It's been spot on for 9 years now and they were a briliant company to deal with. The engine is not standard by any means, but the head was one of the porous Friday afternoon ones from Small Heath in 1972.
You also become aware that the oil feed in the Triple is rather excessive so I experimented some years ago on reducing the oil feed pipe down to 3mm with great success. (video link attached) the only thing I am careful with is leaving bike on side stand for about 10 seconds after starting (cold) so oil makes it's way to the non feed side of rockers. There are no seals on the valve guides BTW. Any more in for or links please message. Regards Mark czcams.com/video/1mkrNcPy-JY/video.htmlsi=SIwF6eFBxCW7iM_z
czcams.com/video/_S4ePbpTZ3s/video.htmlsi=6YZ5StQOqolkFydd
czcams.com/video/rNckpEpL4_4/video.htmlsi=8XRFg_zOgaDOC4Ab
20 yrs ago I fitted to my T160 a set of valve guide oil seals on the inlets. At the time I had the motor to pieces, so I also added 4 piece oil control rings. Not sure if both additions helped or if just one would have solved it. Never had smoking since. Good luck from NZ.
Well done for narrowing down the gremlin. Congratulations on your mental constitution, never mind a possible cracked head, my head would have cracked 👌👏👍
A number of these had pourous valve pockets which gave exactly the symptoms you described.
Fix is to totally degrease the head and paint the inside of the pockets.
I had a T160 that I did a cosmetic rebuild on the engine (it was not smoking) and all was fine inside. I had the head vapour blasted after which it smoked like a chimney! It looked like the oil must have been getting down the outside of the now carbon free guides. I fitted a set of oversize diameter guides and no more smoke.
I said to you a few days ago that I had the same problem on a R3, that turned out to be oil leaking past the valve guide/cylinder head. Got Richard Darby at the time to make a bespoke guide to solve the problem. It seams you can score the aluminium by not having a properly sized guide to fit. Take a good look inside the exhaust ports to see if you tell where warm or hot oil has left a telltale sign. Good luck
I'm not familiar with Tridents (helped take one apart once). But I have had experience with a couple of car engines where valve stem seals were changed but they didn't seal as expected. Once replaced everything was fine. Tunns out it only takes one bad one.
Take header pipes and intake manifold s off pore oil into rocker box’s to flood around guides and put inspection light into each port and you may see what guide is the problem as it will have oil drop on it where the valve protudes.
Had a Bonnie do it on a customers bike on one inlet guide years ago..
if you used sealer on the base gasket, i would remove the barrells again,, sorry to say they could be blocked at the bottom as mine was
just had the same on a T150 center exhaust valve came loose once hot refitted oversized one runs fine
Hi Chris. Did you check the spark plugs to see if it was one cylinder in particular that had the problem? If a valve guide was allowing too much oil into the combustion chamber, you will get an idea of which cylinder is at fault. Rob vW
Are you sure you have the oil pipes to the right way round. Ie in the return to oil tank and not the feed to the oil cooler..
It’s like the valve seals have failed!? Good Luck! 🏍🏍🏍
Valve guides was what caused that on my 750 tiger
Blocked oil drain, from rockers, valve guides.
did a head gasket on a 16v golf for a mate of mine once and he supplied the parts and had the same issue after a few moments of running oil smoke low level in the sump i popped the rocker cover and got covered in oil the whole thing was fit to burst.so lifted the head and dug out 1 of my OE head gaskets and compared them and sure enough the monkey cheap head gasket was the culprit all the return and water holes were different sizes and well off centre from where they should have been lets hope its sumink simple like this eh.
Throw that composite head gasket in the trash bin !!! Get a copper one anneal it and liberally coat it with copper coat gasket sealer. Before you install it seal around the those oil return sleeves with silicone sealer or yamabond 4 top and bottom. They are allowing oil to leak into the cylinders.
As I asked earlier how about the valve guides? Mainly inlet!
Check if the gasket is oily when you remove the head.
On Norton Commandos if the rocker shaft are in wrong ( the flat side ) have to point in a certain direction they smoke like your Trident are the triumphs like this
The shafts are a different fitting on Tridents to the alignmentsensitive ones on Commandos,, but thanks anyway. 👍
has the engine got a breather pipe if so it could be blocked
Had similar problem on my recently rebuilt big bore trident, but mine smoked primarily from the open breather tube, not the mufflers - not sure the significance but I am pretty sure my rings are not sealing properly in my case. Is your exhaust smoke coming from both orifices, or only the mufflers? I share your pain, I am just getting into my second round, you are ahead of me for now.
Thanks. Good luck! 👍
Tight valve guides-cracked head, as you stated never smoked before refurb ?
I put my comments on before I watched the video,
Did you think about only reinstalling one feed to the rockers.
I still say it is likely to be those valve oil seals. Hope you didn’t inadvertently fit them upside down?
the oil couldnt return so it would rise up and go down the valve stem and burn.
I once had a very badly smoking commando after a rebuild
It turned out the valve guides were not parallel
The top of the guides were 2 thou smaller
So although they felt tight in the head they weren't
I took them back to the shop and went through their stock with my mike until I found 4 absolutely parallel ones
Problem solved
The head casting I thought from the begining looked shody. Maybe the norm on these
Sounds like a bottom and head gasket has been damaged on assembly
Have you checked for excessive crank case pressure....looks to me more like oil being injected under pressure than natural engine induction draw🤔 either way a total brain ache ahead on this one😮
I'd say valve seals not the guides.
We're the valves changed as well?
Yes, new valves, valve guides and stem seals - and new valve springs.
Have you performed a leak down test ?
Not yet, but that will show a leaking valve seat re combustion, rather than a valve leaking oil from above?
Does the crank have a sludge trap !
Triples don't have sludge traps in the crankshaft like the twins have, but they do have drilled oilways in the crank that are plugged with grub screws and they should be cleaned out when rebuilding the engine.
Poor ads head had that before
Too much crankcase pressure.
it woud nt take much oil to make smoke..
No useful advice to offer as I'm not familiar with the triples, but why do these sorts of problems only seem to affect the meticulous builder who checks everything and always goes the extra mile.
Have a friend who is as rough as you like, and works in appalling squalor ... Yet seems to sail along with never a problem. Lots of helpful realistic advice in the comments here, so still some hope before having to resort to searching for a reliable Witch Doctor..
Engine strip and rings at 25miles because of smoke! What a joke, give it time to all settle down, it's not a modern bike