Deja Vu? Beached Volvo #2! (XC90 Long Crank/Stall - Part 1)
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- čas přidán 14. 07. 2023
- I just finished up the Butchered 2004 Volvo XC70 from VA... and now got ANOTHER Beached Whale Volvo towed in from VA...a 2004 XC90 T6 Twin Turbo!
This one is usually a crank-no-start, but occasionally fires up...and stalls within 10 seconds?
Codes are set for MAF sensor and CKP sensor, so we do have good direction.
However multiple shops and the dealer have already been STUMPED...
Will PHAD have any better luck?
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Ivan - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Ah, Volvo's ... the best/worst love/hate relationship ever.
Here's a tip from an Electrical Engineer: Any time you have a two-wire differential signal, the best way to view it on a scope is with A and B channels, one on each signal wire, and the inputs set to the same volts per division, A+B, B channel INVERTED.
This gives you a much clearer voltage and waveform reading with NO DC voltage, no common-mode noise, just pure signal.
This works for any differential signal, be it an engine sensor, wheel sensor, or crank sensor. Especially a CAN bus! Almost no car mechanic views these signals differentially, which really grinds my gears!
Differential signal wires are 99% of the time twisted with each other. That helps cancel and randomize any magnetic field encountered by the wires.
You get a much clearer signal by looking at the difference between the two wires. That is because spurious signals like ignition noise and power line hum and alternator whine tend to be equal on twisted wires, so when you take the difference, the noise cancels out.
This comes from ancient telephone line practice, going back over 100 years, where there are just two unshielded twisted wires running on poles for MILES to the local telephone office. Between each wire and ground there are often several VOLTS of noise and power line hum, but the audio voltage is pretty clean as it's sensed differentially at the phone office.
I know, you are not taught to do it that way, but trust me, that's the way it is generated, transferred, and sensed, in billions of automotive signals and billions of telephone lines and billions of Ethernet cables and billions of USB cables and billions of DVI cables. You get a much much clearer signal that way. Please try it and see.
So choose (A-B) or (A+B, B Inverted) on the scope, ground clip on both inputs to chassis or engine. The scope probes must be identical, both straight wire probes or X1 or less preferably X10. Any difference in the probes will show up as a phantom difference on the scope display, you don't want that. It's a teensy bit harder than just hanging one probe, but trust me, billions of data signal lines can't be wrong!
One loophole-- you should first check both wires for the presence of signal. If one has signal and the other doesn't, then it's either a (unusual) ground and signal pair, or one side is open or shorted to ground.
Long but valuable info! 👍
Easy way to figure out if it is the sensor may be to stick a 1:2 transfomer in between to amplify the signal, and see if it starts/runs reliably. Although that could result in a signal that is too large on high RPM.
It does feel like the signal amplitude is just below the threshold that the ECM wants to see a valid signal. Would probably have to be more than 2,5Vpp differential to trigger the comparators, as only the zero crossings are important.
I will bet that brain in Ivan's head absorbed all of that explanation.
I came here to say the same. There is value in seeing CANBUS as two signals, as only one side may be bad. But for a coil pickup, absolutely view both sides as a single signal.
Kick the pair with the KS. Lol
Had the same problem with my 2004 V70R after replacing my transmission. The problem was a poor ground between the transmission and the engine. A few people said the transmission had to be removed and have the mating surfaces cleaned. I added ground straps between the engine and transmission, the car has worked perfectly for the last 55 000kms
The dealer did the same thing to me after a rear main seal replacement in my 2004 S80 2.5T. The tach needle would bounce during an extended crank. Other times it would start and run horribly and shut off. Eventually it would start and run ok. It took me 7 years to gather the data to theorize that there was an engine/trans ground that was not connected anymore. Sadly I traded the car (back to the Volvo dealer) never having fixed the issue.
You NAILED it!!!
Ivan, the Volvo sales department are going broke by you keeping these cars on the road. lol
At least he didn't get kicked out like he did at the local Honda Dealership.
Was watching Diagnose Dan , he had a bosch crank sensor and the polarity was backwards . It created a no start
One more swede being pulled back from the purgatory by the master tech🎉
Engine removed plus reluctor on the flex plate equals damaged reluctor wheel (bent out of round). With that low of amplitude, I'm guessing the ECM is seeing the signal, but confusing it with the sync notch. I recently went through this on an 07 Dodge Magnum. I set a bridge across the crank sensor hole and used a depth micrometer to find the issue. I modded a slide hammer to fit in the close quarters and pulled the 2 low areas to match the high areas and that fixed the problem.
Thanks for ruining the mystery. Remember..."spoiler alert"....lol
Awesome thinking outside of the box repair!!!!! Most would have gone for a flex plate replacement!!
"Depth mic"
Do you have a machinist background??
@@dans_Learning_Curve Well, I was just trying to save my friend some money as he just had the engine replaced. I don't have a machinest background, but I've built enough Buick 3.8/231 engines and it's variants over the years to have learned how to use mics and have the need to have those tools. Built a few Chevy 2.8/173 and 3.1/191 engines as well. Fun Fact that not many people know, is that with the 231 V6, if you run hyperutectic pistons, you can also run variable compression ratios that actually helps take out the rest of the vibrations that GM couldn't get out using the split pin crank design, stock ratio is 8:1 but if you're looking for more horses and torque, 9.5:1 for the rear 4 cylinders and 9:1 for the front 2 cylinders. Just have to balance out the piston and rod assemblies to within 1 gram of each other.
@@mattcat231 just hit you with a sub in case you come up with any more videos!
I prefer BEACHED over BUTCHERED, YES ?
the first volvo had been butchered though I thought it was an apt appraisal of the previous "work done" with no apparent care or thought abou cause and effect the cause of the non sealing induction system was improperly fitted hoses causing errattic running iIf you do not have a mechanical bent in you leave well alone you will do more harm than good
Yes, however looking at the last Va Volvo, butchered repairs fit the bill. Or as I said, a cluster flock. Keeping it PG.
Because the computer seems to be injecting at the wrong time, when the signal looks okay, I would probe the signal directly at the computer rather than just at the sensor. Problems starting when the engine is removed would make me suspect a pinched harness? It could be there was originally a bad wire and then the low amplitude was caused by the parts cannon putting in a bad replacement sensor.
All good guesses Jessica! Your mind will be blown in Part 2 😉
That was my initial idea Jessica. I would check at the PCM too. I think we still have to keep in mind that the customer might have been having other drivability issues before the main seal change and has forgotten about it.
Are you an automotive technician? You always have great comments!
@@dans_Learning_Curve Nope. I am an electrical engineer. I just enjoy repairing everything. Repair is my jam 😁
@@jessicav2031 nice!
I guess it is becoming a tradition to bring Volvo cars from Virginia to Pennsylvania Furnace. I think you and your wife make a GREAT team, Ivan. Great video!
Every good phad Volvo video starts with pushing it with the XL7
Thank you for always posting fresh content - unlike "some" wannabees who post re-uploads every morning.
New customer complaint, scratched rear bumper. :P
Please put a tire between the cars if you pushed one inside, if i was your customer i appreciate that
I bet these guys who replaced the seal did flip around a flyweel or didn’t tight up the crank sensor.
That’s so nice when costumer can tell the story of the vehicle it really helps to get a direction right away.
Anything is possible 😉
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics YES, We saw that on the last BUTCHERED VOLVO, LOL.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnosticsvideo produced back in May.
This "Beached Whale" is back swimming in the ocean!😅😅
The flywheel gap is damaged by prying
If you notice Ivan’s own vehicles are at least 25 years old, just like fine wine that ages well.
Yes, an average of about that age. His Mazda MPV is a 1989. His Mercury Mistique is a '96; His Suzuki XL-7 is an '02 and his wife's Nissan Rogue is a 2010 and on its second continuously variable transmission which he said if it goes out again, "I am NOT changing the transmission again."
At this point, you should probably think about installing a winch in your garage to pull in these beached whales to save your clutch and the customer's bumper.
I did that in my home shop to pull in my own busted ass cars lol
No bumpers or clutches were harmed in this episode 😆
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you have two completely separate problems, I bet the customer was dealing with the long crank for a long time until it started dieing.
It sounds like it's running out of fuel like you said I think you're 100% correct with that, I think you got two separate problems there man...
It is like the volvo v70r that I do cars channel did. Cranksensor codes but the sucker was out of fuel, 😂 the gauge show half a tank, he smacked the tank and the gauge droped to empty.
Volvo recommends "Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics" hahaaha
Could it be that after the rear mainseal replacement the flexplate was put on clocked one bolt off? (On the old redblocks this absolutely possible. Ask me how i know...) The ECU gets all signals and tries to compensate by adjusting ign timing and at some point it no longer can: first the engine start reluctantly, runs like garbage, tries to compensate, can't, engine dies.
thank you for taking on these volvo's ivan great job my train of thought on this one would have suspected the flex plate and reluctance wheel first I am reasonably well set up for gearbox removal and going on the knowledge that this has happende since engine change would lead me to think this engine chance has apprentice or diy syndrome its late I tired and this bleedin engine is going in tonight / that when things like reluctance wheels get tagged and low and behold we have a starting problem ( an old senior engineeer i started my trade leaning from useto to tell me the last one to work on an engine must have been an idiot if your getting odd results everything is based around the rules set out to make it run great channel keep up the good work on euro trash I love my volvos so Im bias
Lots of good information here. However, some punctuation would help. Took me about 3 times reading it through to catch your train of thought.
Not bashing in any way!
Really enjoy these videos. Keep up the good work, sir. 🇺🇸🇺🇸
Love it Ivan, another challenging one to fix!
Perfect timing, I just awakened, kind of, eyes still burning, no coffee in me yet, LOL.
Enjoy! 😁
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I am very much, always Sir Ivan.
I paused at 6:00 Very common issues with Volvo's. The key stuck in the ignition is usually sticky park interlock cable linkage on the shifter. Using some silicone spray on the linkage usually helps. The hard start issue..... Watch the tach as you crank. If it's bouncing and you get random backfires, it's usually a poor ground between engine and trans.
Just finished watching. Ivan, try doing a drop test on the main ground circuit. Particularly between the transmission and the engine. Volvo's are extremely finicky about getting a clean ground through that point. When you separate the engine and trans, you can introduce contaminates and end up causing a poor contact when remounting the trans to the engine. Sometimes you can get lucky by re-torquing the case bolts. Also, check the turbo intercooler hoses. It sounded like there maybe a gross air leak. Easy way to confirm that is try starting the engine with the MAS disconnected. If it will run and idle without the MAS being connected, you most likely have a boost pressure hose off or blown. I can't wait to see what you find in the next episode.
You should be worried if a Volvo does not have the AQ and the Siren fault :P
Looks like a tough one, Ivan. Seeing the weak signal level is perplexing but I like your train of thought with the sensor gap. All arrows seem to be pointing at the sensor and the flex plate since the rear main seal was fiddled with.
looking forward to part 2 Hopefully flywheel was not put on out of time after seal replacement if that"s possible or reluctor ring otherwise damaged
Just did the #3 fuel injector on one a few days ago and repaired the AC. Great vehicles if you maintain them. I got the injector from FCP EURO. .Worked great. Thank you PHAD for another great diagnostic video.. Take Care
I can appreciate the Suzuki XL7. I once kept a small fleet of Suzuki's and Vatara's going for teenage drivers. Great learning vehicles for Alaska winters!🥶😆 Easy to fix and maintain at the time.
About 25 years ago. I fell into a tile rut. Everytime I finished a job. I had three more do. I think you're in a Volvo rut. May peace be with you. LOL My wife drives a Volvo. And these videos are really helping me out. Have a great day. : )
Worked for a guy who had Volvo diesel box vans. This was 30 years ago, those engines ran great put lots of miles on them👍
Hi Ivan, excellent content as usual, my first check would be the engine earth strap, likely missing or bad connection given the symptoms and readings your getting!
I'm going with damaged reluctor wheel during engine install or loose flywheel bolts allowing it to misallign. Looking forward to part2
I was Diagnosing a 2005 S40 with the B5254T3 T5 Engine, because it was way to Butchered (Engine Harmess destroyed and the ECM had the 852D error, engine horribly assembled after an overheat) than the 2004 XC70 you had. Same issue: Cranks but no Start.
When it Cranked, it was Intermitent, because on the Cluster and the Scan Tool bounced between 1000-6000RPM so the Relay was deactivating the Starter Motor believing it started.
Later, the customer told me that the Flex Plate was replaced, but it wasn't replaced right, and the Impulse Sensor had Metal Shavings as well. Visual Inspection to the Flex plate and was phisically damaged. He didn't want to fix it (money) so he junk the car.
You are now known as Volvo Man 🤷 kidding looking forward to the diag
Is there an o ring in the block under the sensor? I've seen cars where the old o ring stays in the block unnoticed when the original sensor is removed, then when a new sensor is installed with a new o ring the air gap changes just enough to make the signal too low especially when cranking because there are two o rings instead of one.
I luv watching your stuff too ❤
Oh no, you are the Saab programming guy and now you’re the Volvo guy 😱
I don't read the comments until the end of the video because I don't want my thought process to be influenced by them or learn what was wrong! What fun is that??!!
Enjoy your methodical diagnostic work!
The difficulty taking the key out is due to sticky mechanics in the gear selector. I have a 1999 S70 which occasionally shows similar symptoms. When I took it to the local dealer, he said that he could replace all the sticking components at a cost of around £700. (I'm in the UK) or do what they do and that is to squirt some WD40 through the gap where the release button is on the selector (that's our equivalent to a general purpose spray release/lubricant) and move the selector through the whole range several times. I may have to do this a couple of times a year but so far, no further problems.
You should have millions of subscribers. Someday, perhaps.
Regarding the key being retained, my old 06 XC70 had an issue with the key. It just failed to work without any notice at all. I had to order up a new cylinder and change the door cylinder to match it, transfer the chip from the old key to the new one. It took quite a while to resolve this and I never trusted the ignition lock after that.
I might have missed a portion of the video where this was addressed but I always try to remember to use the KISS method when diagnosing a vehicle and I am wondering about the fuel pump or driver module because it seems like it primes but doesn't turn back on so the car keeps dying. Since the engine was pulled it could be many other things and those are always the worst because you never know what the last 200 pound gorilla did when they were wrenching on it. Lol
I think this customer nursed one issue until another problem developed in the three years since the shop bent something on the engine removal. The long pulse might be a response to low or intermittent fuel supply.
I think you were right when you questioned the placement of the ring gear on the flywheel or the gap between the sensor and the flywheel.
Can’t wait for tomorrows episode. I have my theory. Let’s see what the problem was.
Right away the live data graph showed the rpm while cranking jumped up to 2500 rpm. Which is definitely not right.
Thanks Ivan!
Air quality/Siren faults are standard from factory on that platform I think. Never seen one without either or both, including my own old s80.
Interesting case, Ivan! Looks like it's starving of fuel, but it also has those parasitic pulses (reluctor-sensor reliability? Big gap?). Part 2 must be interesting 🙂
The tow truck driver probably saw your other video and sent someone else instead, and made sure the other driver strapped the tires this time 😂🤣
Part 2: "All good guys...I re-timed the newly installed rear main seal!"
Hall effect sensors are cleaner but not as heat tolerant. The reluctor type a lot of times have one mounting bolt making a fussy sensor even less sensitive.
Interesting diagnosis, but can you get the known good waveform from the other Volvo? So you can compare all? Do you know? Great video Ivan!
Ouch, a T6!! Surprised the transmission hasn’t gone out yet. One of my 09 XC90 V8’s had a long crank, sometimes started sometimes not on the first try. Last year while cranking I heard a loud pop and since then it starts up perfectly every time. Weird, but I’ll take it. I guess some just fix themselves 😂
The "run out of fuel" behavior might be the manifold air pressure sensor if it exists.
I have experienced that behavior on another vehicle, but of course the crank sensor is the primary target.
There may be other problems, but I think you're on the right track with the air gap. I was suspecting that as soon as I heard this started with an engine replacement. When a computer gets a weak signal, they can do anything they want, including only working on a full moon on a Wednesday. This could get interesting - like the swapped engine wasn't an exact match (or at least the flex plate wasn't).
It sounds like it's having trouble getting fuel to the engine so it could be a fuel pressure problem.
However,it could be a similar problem to what that Wrenching with Kenny showed where he inherited a Chrysler or Dodge truck where it had a driveability issue where it wouldn't rev past 2000 RPMs or something like that.
The engine was apparently out of a wreck of a truck where it had missing valve covers & whoever fitted the engine couldn't get it running right,it had a camshaft/crankshaft sensor correlation code set in the PCM which was caused by the donor engines camshaft sensor trigger wheel getting bent out of shape in the accident so he just straightened it with a set of long nose Vice grips which fixed the problem !
WWK is a great channel! Kenny sharing day to day events! His channel is growing! I wonder what his future plans are that he hasn't told us about?!
Something is upsetting the electrons. Bad grounds, stray voltage!!
The transmissions in those are absolute trash. I have replaced many. I have found bad crank signals because of people don't tighten bolts or leave the corrosion on bell housing. The ground is on transmission.. I wouldn't doubt someone smashing flywheel on removal/ install
Ivan’s looking like a Saab-Volvo whisperer, personally I’d just run and hide.
A common problem on these is when people change the transmission the put back the battery cable too close to the wiring harness and the interference sometimes messes up with the startup, something to keep in mind
I’ve seen a toyota variable reluctance crank sensor with low amplitude cause similar issues. In my situation it was just the sensor. Gap and tone wheel were good! The cyclical nature in the waveform combined with the low amplitude make it quite interesting. 2 problems or 1!? Anything’s possible when someone has been in there before, triggering the problem.
Crazy. I often use obd2 for Euro diagnostics. I actually went to a class that was focused on bmw. And they emphasized to use obd2 instead of factory data. I guess there's a lot of issues with the way the information is interpreted.
Damaged reluctor ring and did they put all the ground straps back on? When you start saying you do not like some of the voltages being so low, I instantly thought ground straps missing.
I’m going with the crank sensor is aftermarket junk!
the difference in amplitude on the sensor output within one revolution is caused by variance in the diameter of the reluctor wheel
Its bent
Te silniki mają wadliwy kanał spływu oleju. Trzeba zdejmować miskę i wykuć nagary. To przepycha olej do kolektora ssącego i powoduje problemy ciśnienia w skrzyni korbowej.
I know it has already been said, but I think the sensor gap is of and the reluctor ring is damaged/off timed. I also think that there is another issue going with the fuel. Just a guess though at this point.
Maybe aluminum corrosion in the crank sensor hole and it isn't seated all the way, o-ring jammed up? I guess I'll know tomorrow.
My bet is on a damaged flexplate because of prying or something else. Or a crappy aftermarket sensor, but the OEM-sensor should not have developed the problem in the first place. Very rare for the rear main seal to ger bad on these engines, even after 3-400 000 km.
Broken ignition barrels are a common problem on the P2 Volvos.
i thought i had seen where you can set the pico where it doesn't flip pages it scrolls and keeps that from happening
Thats the difference between an obd1 tech and a obd2 tech the obd1 tech starts the diag by intense visual and pull and wiggling
Inspection an obd2 tech goes straight to the scan tool witch approach is better? It varies.
A cushion! A cushion! Puleeze put a cushion/pad between the bumpers when pushing a “beached whale” into the shop, or when pushing any time me else.
They last long enough to be massive problems. Our 2003 xc70 was thankfully totaled after drive to rear wheels was lost.
I keep hearing about cam sensor issues causing incorrect crank sensor codes. I'd be interested to see a cam signal or two on this study case too!
If were checking the air gap might as well stick the borescope down there and turn the engine over by hand.
My own tuppence worth. Sounds like a fuel starvation issue. Another separate problem might be the sensor gap. The amplitude variation on the crank signal is not healthy along with erratic injector pulses all over the shop. Twill be interesting as to what the final outcome will be. By any chance is there any more Volvos left in Virginia? Or is this the tip of the proverbial iceberg ? Can see another happy customer result not far down the line.
That's with injection pulses is probably Volvo strategy to adding more fuel if starting is extended.
Ah yes, a simple case of beached solenoid correction on the input cam via an offset variation. A quick scan of the overload signal should solve a no crank with start. Empty the ashtrays, replace the dip stick and you will have a happy customer.
Does the flex plate and flywheel only go on one way? It could also be misaligned which would throw off the timing.
I have no idea but I’m gonna throw out a guess anyway. The old crank sensor was replaced, but the O-ring/gasket stayed in place and it is now double gaskets.
im very interested to find out what you find out the problem is in the upcoming parts just a follow up on my fantastic butchered 2011 f250 fuse, box truck lol so the i should have done a video i guess because its very interesting how fords diagnostics work but it got me on this one because of all the wiring problems that this truck has had lately not to mention dash out work for a bad heater core and some other issues i didn’t mention in my previous comment anyway random long cranking no start only bcm codes for key in sense open circuit so the dinger was broken and only a dash message for a starting circuit fault so pulling my hair out and finally the i just do what we’re not supposed to do but i have had it at this point because everything is working fine and i fixed the one code i had and now i have a key in dinger no codes it’s still an intermittent problem so what is it ? well it’s got aftermarket keys so I go to Ford get OEM keys and try it no codes in the computer for pats problems i programmed them an what do you know it fixed the problem it’s the strangest thing you try to start the truck with the aftermarket key. Sometimes it works sometimes it don’t. but the computer doesn’t log them events ahhhhh lol just gives you a starting circuit fault on the instrument cluster it’s very interesting 🧐 the oem key just works anyway the truck is now happy first time in years with no problems and so is the boss honestly a crazy one for me anyway im looking for to see what the outcome is on this Volvo
The battery is on nuclear #SMA
Is that ring indexed maybe installed wrong or damaged when they changed the oil seal?
The stuck key is because the Park Switch (different from the PRDL) is not being engaged. The switch may be in the console or in the transmission.
I believe that on P2 cars there's a mechanical interlock between the park gate on the transmission handle and the steering column. That's been known to break as it's made out of plastic.
Your methodical process is mesmorizing.
I think the whales have found a breeding ground at Ivan's place. Whales are reborn at his shop😅
How do you like those Topdon Chargers your is very nice?
I'm thinking a bent or damaged reluctor ring.
Awesome
I was scared it was same one crapped again
QUESTION:
Does the T6 twin turbo xc90 04 haavr a PEM ? 😮
16:41 clean battery terminals
I worked for volvo for 20 years and saw this several times. They never cleaned the mating surface between the engine and transmission when it was out for the rear main replacement and it causes a bad ground. You either have to remove the transmission and clean the surface or add a new ground.
What is this, Volvo week? Also on "I Do Cars".
Hello Ivan .
With all my respect I don’t think mentioning the lack of speaking the language is that important as long you and him doing the excellent job .
That’s my humble opinion.
If you cannot communicate with anybody in English it's a problem.
To be able to understand each other it's important.