Empathy, Misogyny & The Friendzone - Interview With Sweet Anita
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- čas přidán 29. 07. 2024
- Join us for an engaging interview with Sweet Anita in this video. Our conversation spans across a multitude of compelling topics, delving into discussions about empathy, misogyny, and navigating the complexities surrounding the concept of the friendzone.
Learn more from Dr. K in his Guide to Mental Health: bit.ly/45NirwY
Not sure which module to start on? Take our quiz: bit.ly/47dGzKj
Sweet Anita shares insightful perspectives on various subjects, offering thought-provoking insights into the importance of empathy in our interactions, the challenges of misogyny in today's society, and the multifaceted dynamics of the friend zone.
@SweetAnita
▼ Timestamps ▼
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00:00 - Preview
00:24 - Introduction
06:56 - Why is it hard to empathize?
12:37 - The stigma of female sexuality
25:04 - Bridging the gap
37:41 - What is the friendzone?
51:20 - What does sex work demand of you?
54:47 - Historic origins of misogyny
58:46 - Rammifications of gender segregation
1:05:42 - How we frame rejection
1:23:57 - Conclusion
Follow Sweet Anita -
/ sweet_anita
/ sweetanita
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#healthygamergg #sweetanita
I wanna put in a word for the manipulative friendzone guys.
I've often hit it off with a girl, taken my shot and been rejected, then denied her request to remain friends.
The key misunderstanding here is that this is not a ploy to gain anything from her. The girls I end up falling for are awesome people who I'd love to be friends with. However, I can't, for my own mental health. I can't see this person and vibe with them and constantly think, I want more from them. This is not a sexual desire (tho it can be too), it's a deeply romantic one. It's not that I pretended to be your friend to get to have sex. The friendship was genuine, feelings arose, and now I need more and can't continue like this. There is no ultrerior motive, this is just the sad facts
I think that this statement is highly underrated. I had a very close male friend, we started dating, it wasn't really working for him, he wanted to go back to being friends and I could not do it. I did not think there was any way I could be a part of his life now and not be embroiled in jealousy, neediness and insecurity, and begin to behave like a total psycho. so the friendship ended immediately irrepairably forever the day we decided to date.
It is unkind and unempathetic to expect that men who are generally starved of love and affection, will never develop romantic feelings for a female who provides them with that. Ironically in my case it was me, the woman, who got friendzoned, but the truth is that he confused the feelings of famial love with romantic love because he barely ever experienced familial love in his life at all. So he wanted to date me until he realised that what he really wished was that I was his mom or older sister. I think the common answer here is actually the difficult to accept reality that men in general are extremely emotionally damaged from a world that does not care about their feelings. The little girl who falls off her bike and scrapes her knee is rushed on by adults asking if she is ok and pampering her with hugs and kisses ... The little boy in the exact same situation is ignored by most adults, and one will come up to him and tell him its not so bad, its only a little scrape and big boys don't cry, so dust yourself off and get back on your bike.
All of this pain on both sides of the gender spectrum can be simply boiled down to multigenerational male trauma, which is ALL of our responsibility to heal, women raise men too, not just fathers, statistically more men are raised by women. This means that mothers raise boys to be devoid of self-love. Women play a role in creating the unempathetic misogynists, this needs to change.
@mikacakes Thanks, that was really nice to hear.
I do want to add that women shouldn't be thinking all men who develop crushes in a friendhip are just starved for affection (not saying you do). I've felt deeply connected to and cared by women I have platonic relationships with. What you said might read to some women who don't want guys' attention that they can't show them this kind of caring. And truth is, it definitely works, and it's not their responsibility. But the fewer women take those bullets, the more men are isolated from a healthy gender dynamic. And if you're capable of setting boundaries, VERY few guys will not respect them
I feel like the key phrase on this topic in the interview is „Is there going to be something more or am I wasting my time?“ at 45:42. She is not talking about a situation where people developed a genuine friendship and one of them caught feelings and ended the friendship because of that hurts, which is a completely valid situation.
“Am I wasting my time?“ implies „The only reason I approached you is because I wanted a relationship/sex, I don’t care about you as a person.“ It implies premeditation as in he started the friendship with that goal in mind, it implies that the only value that person sees in spending time with her is to get in her pants. Which is quite manipulative and malicious as it means that every nice experience and deep talk with that person was an act. It’s not something you would say if you genuinely cared about the other person.
Again I’m not trying to discredit your feelings here. Thats a shitty situation you found yourself in and I feel you, but I think you and Anita are talking about different situations.
@@mailysablubb9207 I 100% agree if the guy said it and meant it that way. That's an unambiguously shitty thing to say. But she uses this case as a representative for her rejection of dudes, which I just don't think it is.
This has completely nailed it on the head. I couldn't figure out what was deeply bothering me when Anita was talking about 'the friendzone' and it is exactly this
As a lesbian, asking girls out made me respect men. That shit is SCARY.
🤝
its straight up , wild. and brutal.
They can really be brutal sometimes. I saw a girl vibing to some Kesha and I tapped her on the shoulder and smiled. Asking if she was liking the music. She looked at me and glared, then gave me a snobby 'No'. Not in the way that she was responding to my question. But in that she was rejecting me as a whole. Shame, I like some Kesha, and her interest in it is what made me want to talk to her.
@@TheReapergod36 the thought of “rejecting me as a whole” is harmful mindset and often untrue. From what I can tell you approached a stranger and tried to initiate a conversation. That’s not a bad thing at all and the fact you left her alone when you realized she wasn’t interested is great. You respected her boundaries. But her rejecting conversation with you is not rejecting you as a person. She doesn’t know you, she doesn’t know your personality, interests, flaws, dreams, etc. She didn’t reject you but a random stranger. It is very likely that she doesn’t dislike you personally but rather she just didn’t want to interact with anyone at the moment. It is likely if any other stranger interacted at with her at the time she would have given the same response. There are so many reasons why people don’t want to talk to another person all the time and you have no reason to think that who you are as a person is the reason why you were rejected. Don’t let these small things drag you down. Everyone is different and life is unpredictable. Keep doing your best in the world and don’t let your own assumptions bring you down. Your worst critic is yourself and don’t let you get yourself down.
I'm bi and I don't have problems with girls, but I usually know them first. I can imagine some women are disrespectful
When you are rejected by all strangers, every rejection becomes an affirmation on all your internalized negative feelings
underrated comment
I'd feel better if I got rejected by a close friend-- at least they were spending time with me for other reasons. But a stranger, who barely knows you and won't give you the benefit of the doubt, or even the time of day? A lot harder to externalize.
It's sad but true. I think this is super obvious for lots of things to. Just think of it from finding a job.
There’s so many dr k interviews with people who share this mindset. If literally every woman rejects you there’s obviously things you need to change that you’re oblivious to. The actions of others don’t reinforce our self image, we use the actions of others to justify the self image we already have, or want.
But strangers are obviously more likely to reject you than someone you know. Put yourself in their shoes. Some rando comes up to you and hits on you, possibly when you’re busy or preoccupied. More importantly, you know nothing about them. You don’t know what their motives are, if they’re a good person, or even if they have a personality compatible with yours. Why would you automatically say yes to them? Even if they’re really attractive. If a very attractive woman that I didn’t know came up to me and started flirting, I’d probably think she was either trying to sell me something or I was being pranked. Not because I don’t think I’m good enough for her, but because that behaviour is out of the norm.
I think what Dr K was trying to piece together towards the end there was: to men, the door to a relationship with a woman they've never met is always open initially, and women saying that the door is closed is the rejection. To women, the door is initially closed, and therefore they can only reject guys if they have let him through the door first!
Exactly.
not really true not everyone thinks the way anita does about it, a lot of women will judge and reject you based on superficial factors like height or how expensive your clothes are or how handsome you are or whatever else based on how you appear during that short interaction. and it will be an intentional rejection and they will also view it that way. which is a far less mature way to look at it.
@@thespanishinquisition7560 and you're basing your opinion on what exactly? Those are just statemenrs that men mindlessly repeat without any substance
@@thespanishinquisition7560 So if you meet a woman like that you can be glad she rejected you right? Because why would you want to date her? If you only wanted to date her based off of looks.. you're not any better than her...
Why do men think the door is open though? Assuming the man is not just interested in a one-night-stand and hitting on her at a bar or something.
I went to a gender segregated school and a family of all women. I'm in my 40s now and realizing the subtle ways I never learned to see men as people. We were taught to see men, instead as just provider-aggressor-objects to seek out to fill some missing puzzle piece in a fantasy vision sold to us. It's fascinating to think about all the ways the segregation causes this on either side.
This reminds me of scenes in certain books and television shows (and even in real life!) where an older woman will instruct a younger one about how to "deal with" men. About how to manipulate him and make him think that he's doing what he wants but he's really following her. But always do it carefully because the man is a volatile entity who may erupt and then all is lost if that happens.
I know that a lot of these scenes take place in settings where women had little to no rights (thus why the characters had to resort to manipulation and subterfuge) but it always struck me as so incredibly toxic, the same way red pill/Tate instructions are.
I do think men and women need a deeper understanding of each other because without that our human instinct to see anything different than us as an enemy will ravage our relationships.
Interesting, as a guy I often don't take this into account or consideration, thank you for sharing
If you don't mind could you give an example of those ways you were taught?
That's how men are often boiled down to. Men are either something to be feared or used.
Tate is vilified (not yhat he should't be) for telling men "how women wörk and how to deal with them". Steve Harvey gets a talkshow on National tv.
I think the reason men feel rejected when asking out a girl has nothing to do with actual rejection but is more to do with the vulnerability that comes with admitting you like someone in a potentially platonic or romantic way. I think that's what a lot of the other comments want Anita to understand.
Edit: Coming from a girl who asked her boyfriend out and found it bloody scary.
That's actually really interesting! Goes back to the point they talked about earlier, where being emotional vulnerability is more difficult for most men.
@@evelinepieternella8088 Yes exactly - I dont usually comment but felt I wanted to in this instance
As a guy I can confirm this is very true
Its completely different for men. Your worth isn't being evaluated because you are considered to have it intrinsic.
@@ethosterros9430 I wouldn't necessarily say that. I think both men and women are told their worth isn't intrinsic, but they're linked to different things. Stereotypically, woman's worth is linked to beauty and desirability while man's worth is linked to power and ability to provide. Both of which can get really toxic to people's well being and self-confidence.
On the topic of getting rejected by strangers, I think a lot of men have the idea that women will say yes to a man who is a complete stranger if he has the looks, height or status she desires. So if a strange woman rejects him, in his mind what she's saying is "you're too ugly, short and low value for me".
You may be right. Because the reality is far from that. I'm a very average, if not kind of ugly woman, and even if the most handsome man in the world came up to me as a stranger and asked me out I wouldn't instantly say ''yes'' lol. He could be a serial killer or a horrible person.We could have absolutely nothing in common etc.
@@mercedesb2299 Well yeah but then why women dont like male friends with romantic intentions?
@@mercedesb2299 You are using false dichotomy. Getting with a woman is not either immediate hookup or worming your way to relationship via friendship, there are other ways.
A woman is much more likely to give her phone number or agree to a date if a guy is handsome and powerful. Would you disagree with this?
@Straga_Severa A man is much more likely to go out with a woman if she is in her twenties and pretty. Would you agree with that?
thats a false equivalence because the average man agrees to a date on much less standards. @@hdshjs
taking rejection personally: it's easy to start to take rejection personally when you say "hi" to a girl and their response is "ew, gross".
That's awful 😢
@@lillierose5304 had a friend confess to his female friend. Her compassionate answer was, literally, "men are such scum, why did you destroy our friendship?" and then leaving the scene.
Such a female thing to do, the entire universe to revolve around her.
@@michajastrzebski4383 sounds like she was an immature very mean person.
And now, to find out that people like Anita are couching their response in assumptions about a person without even knowing them.
@@michajastrzebski4383
sUcH a fEmAlE tHiNg tO dO..
OBvIoUsly ALL women are like that and men are ALL literal Angels who only use women who dEsErVe iT... AM I RIGHT FELLAS? 🧔♀️🔥💯💪
In reference to men being afraid of rejection, as someone with a relatively healthy emotional vocabulary, and who has been very scared of rejection, it's definitely not always about the "No". The "No" hurts, sure, but a lot of the fear is the what ifs around it. If it's a friend, what if it destroys the friendship? If it's someone you know through others, how will that hurt your relationship with them?
It should be easy. "Hey, I like you." "Aight, cool. I don't, not like that." "Ok. Not the response I wanted but that's fine. Wanna play some mario kart?" but there's so much AROUND that that it's a lot of feedback and noise overriding that simple process.
In my experience, fear almost always stems from a want to avoid losing something. Losing the friend. Losing the fantasy you've built up in your head. Losing your social group that you've built up. Or, in the case of fear of rejection approaching someone in a bar or whatever, sure people want to get their way, but it's also the potential reactions. Do they make a scene? Logically, no they won't but they MIGHT. Do other people around give you shit? Do your friends think less of you?
Yeah, I get that. There's all the awkward situation around it, things can't be unspoken.
I worry about, if I do know them they might just pretend they're interested for easy sex until they meet someone they actually have feelings for.
I think the part about losing the fantasy you've built up in your head is the biggest contender. Like Anita said, rejection from someone who doesn't even know you shouldn't really feel bad, since there's nothing invested to lose besides time taken during a quick conversation.
It's the total fabrication of what COULD come after that conversation that I feel many men are afraid to lose. Despite not having any solid reason for things to progress beyond a first meeting, it will still feel like you lost a possible future with this person. When in reality that person never intended to jump into a relationship with you, they weren't even thinking about you that way.
It's the disconnect between what men think they can gain from asking a girl if they want to date them, and what women actually consider a romantic encounter.
What you have to understand is that what you see as a potential romantic relationship she sees as platonic friendship, and once you reveal your true intentions, she will realise that you are in a way being deceitful and never saw it as platonic friendship.
@@NotoriousBBB well, except for if the crush or the feelings have been built up over time, which is pretty common aswell
I'd argue the 'losing the friendship' part for me is the most relatable and scary part. I've had crushes in the past, but only on friends I've known for at least a year, I don't really tend to fall in love with someone unless I know them well on an emotional level and that takes time naturally.
Issue is, once you get to that level of trust and friendship, the 'risk' of confessing is way higher because you invested so much in the friendship, if the feelings aren't reciprocated you might just lose it all, and that's infinitely worse than the simple 'no'.
Not saying this is anyone's fault and I have no idea how to fix it if it's even fixable, but that's what my personal fear of rejection boils down to.
Please bring back interview style videos like this more often again!! I miss when you use to do these consistently! They're always great convos!!💚
Nah, IMO the Reddit post one is still the best since it helps Dr K helps average people which is majority of his demographic. Sure streams like this does help too to some extent but they definitely shouldn’t be the norm
more often u mean?
Your profile picture tho 😎
100% on this. I learn most from a conversation than I do a lecture. I’ve mostly stopped watching all non interview/conversation videos.
As long as they're not all famous streamers.
You know, I sat and listened to the best of my ability.
The part that resonated with me was not being able to differentiate signals with friendly interactions.
I have experienced this more times than I'd care to admit.
I by default assume if someone wants to be around me that they're doing so because they want to be friends. I never assume sexual intent.
I've missed. So. Many. Signals. Where women have retro actively asked me why I never made a move.
I've been invited to stay the night at female friends houses. Not understanding the implication of what they mean when staying the night. Slept on couches when a bed has been offered. Stepped out of rooms when someone has started to change in front of me. And brushed off invitations of dates as hang outs with the homies.
I just assumed it was cause they were comfortable around me - and knew I wouldn't do anything that the offers were being made - NOT - that they were trying to drop a hint.
Maybe you're neurodivergent?
@@EyeOfTheTiger777 nope.
I mean unless ADHD counts. I do have a diagnosis of that.
I'd say it's probably more so to protect my peace of mind. It's safer and less emotionally turbulent to assume that someone's actions are what they are at face value.
Clear direct communication about intent is what differentiated the people that ended up being my partners - and the people who I end up missing signals. I do not like ambiguity I never have.
Alot of guys have this problem, better late than never. /shrug now that you know don't fuck it up next time :D
@@trulydumb506 ADHD does generally count as being neuro divergent!
I hope that you don't let yourself feel too bad about any of those situations. All I know is that if they weren't able to communicate clearly and directly what they were interested in, I don't know how emotionally available they'd be in general. (I don't want to make snap judgments about these people's character, I'm just working with the information you've given)
It seems to me like you're prioritizing being a good, kind, and respectful person above all else and you should feel good about that. Despite your username...I think you were the Truly Smart one in these situations :)
As a woman, i feel like she assumes a LOT of things about these specific kinds of men...
I liked the conversation in the beginning because she was explaining how these revenge porn and deep fakes can feel for the victim, but at the end i feel like she gets angry at men who cannot communicate like "a normal person" and therefore asks for advice and men who gets bitchy about being friend zoned and what not. (I do agree, there is no "zone" to be put in, you start out a friend and it either evolves or stays as is. You can start out as a romantic option but you will be well aware and in this case you'd probably not go "down" to being a friend if it doesn't work out afterwards)
I do think the constructive conversation turned sour there as she could not understand the "other side" and how hard it can be for both men and women to talk to the opposite sex regardless of romantic feelings or not.
The feelings of rejections in seemingly small conversations that SHOULD NOT matter, but for these people DO MATTER, is a huge problem that many people i know born in the 90'ies have or do struggle with.. I struggled talking to any guys that didn't approach me and start the conversation, even in school projects i struggled talking to the boys in the group, not because of romantic opportunities, but because i was afraid of rejection, being told to do my part of the project alone because i had nothing in common with them.. And they where all very nice people!
I have adult male friends today that struggle to get a partner because they don't know how to interact with females. They don't have many hobbies and therefore do not meet women nor have anything in common with the girls they meet.. It can happen the other way around too, i have a couple of female friends, that are or where in relationships with a guy where they had nothing in common with, it often end too because its hard to find something to do together if you cannot dig into the other persons hobbies.
I hope you guys and gals out there, who feel worthless and hopeless knows that you are good enough! You are worth being with, your hobbies are fun! You "just" need to find someone who shares the hobby or want to listen in or even try it out because they like YOU for YOU, and its not easy, i know, but get out there, have fun, enjoy life, do your hobbies, along the way you might find that special someone
most guys dont struggle they just dont want , they just struggle to find sex , partner and sex is different for men
@@justicethedoggo3648
Your assumption is exactly the type of thing Gwenx is talking about I think.
Many guys (mostly young ones) struggle with basic communication with women regardless if sex is even a thing they want with that specific woman.
The struggle to find a partner and the struggle to find sex is the same one and the sources of the problem are often the same - silly archaic social expectations, poor education in the subject etc.
It’s very hard to CBT your way through learned experiences and a vast majority of women I know share these same experiences. In the beginning when she said it was gaslighting for people to act like they don’t get it …. Yeah
I do think some of these men, who struggle, really just are looking for sex and not a relationship because they maybe don't know what relationships are about?
I hear my friends craving a relationship, but whenever the talk lands on woman and their needs, they back out and talk shit about how its "needy" for the woman to wanna sit and bench idk, sex and the city, with their partner or whatever the topic is. None of these guys are willing to put in the effort, to sacrifice, or to do the things needed of them.. They just want sex with a pretty girl.
Now most of those i know that wants a relationship, actually do find them self's in relationships, it just doesn't hold because they maybe ignore some red flags or their partner isn't willing to put in the work, or they just weren't super compatible to begin with. These guys know what a relationship takes, and that you have to adapt, change, and give up some things, to be in a balanced relationship that isn't just sex :)
Most girls have experienced something super uncomfortable from some guy out there. The entitlement or the friend zoning is the most annoying as we are all individuals, we owe nothing to nobody no matter what we do. You flirted with a girl at the bar, and later felt she was not your type? You don't "owe" her to go home and bang her, just because you where flirty. You don't owe her, to explain next morning over text, why you left early. You can have a change of heart, change your believes, change your opinion, and that should be okay.
I really do hope these video's Dr.K makes helps some guys and gals out there, struggling to understand and help us all do, and be better
A woman with sense, rare these days
Here’s my theory on the rejection problem. Because men get taught a lot less about feelings and communication they actually end up being a lot more sensitive to these types of things, so if a man goes up to a woman in the supermarket and he gets rejected, it’s taken extremely personally and is a massive hit on their self-worth. The first thoughts in his head in that situation won’t be “She doesn’t know me so it doesn’t matter”, it’s “I’m not strong/attractive enough, I am bad at speaking, my social anxiety is getting in the way” etc.
That’s a valid theory,also the pressure that we get having to make 90% of the moves and we aren’t even taught social cues that woman do for us to know our chances are 0.Then you start to believe there’s a chance even the smallest of chances because she never said no.
I think another factor is that women are already validated enough. Women can get offended if they get rejected like men can, but in a lot of cases they'll probably have a feeling of self worth. Men don't have that self worth or constant praise so it's easier for us to take it on a more personal level as a lot of us don't really have much to fall back on.
@@frishter totally in line with what you said, a compliment for a man is something he's gonna cherish for his entire life for most of us xD So I guess the self worth as a man is way more difficult to gain on a daily basis
@@frishter I disagree, not just you but the whole premise. Okay, not the whole, but half of it I agree, that men are left without tools and more vulnerable in these situations, but than if a relationships ensues, women are more open to hits to their self worth. The fear of not being abel to “keep a man” is the same as for a man not being able to “get a woman”.
@@olympiaelda1121 One is cleary harder though lol. Just like not being able to find good food or keep good food rather than find any food at all.
Same for relationships, which are almost a base need like food as well. Not having them at all is significantly worse.
To add onto the question of, "How can you get rejected if they don't even know you?" You have to take into account how some people make entire character assumptions about you, way before you're even in talking distance.
Hell, back in grade school people assumed I was a school shooter simply because I was a dude who didn't talk much and wore a hoodie. It's not until they knew me that they realized all of their assumptions were baseless.
Now imagine if you want to go make friends with someone or ask them out, and before they've even heard you speak, they label you as a school shooter. You could perhaps see how you're already rejected before even being known.
Both men and women make assumptions very fast. There's even research that it only takes a few seconds for people to decide. Honestly I think only very beautiful people haven't experienced this happening to them and don't understand, because of the halo effect they have an advantage. But what people said about you sounds awful and painful. As an awkward introvert, people sometimes tell me things like "wow when I first saw you I thought you were very arrogant but you are chill". It makes me self-conscious that people I've never talked to, or only talked for a few minutes, already thought so negatively on me. Doesn't help with social anxiety lol.
I think you are somewhat projecting your assumptions onto other people here, I don’t think everybody sees someone who is quiet in a hoodie and immediately thinks ‘school shooter’. Outside of that, if this really is happening/ it upset/s you, you can try a sweater, blazer, cardigan, etc or socialising a little more.
To add even further to the "How can you get rejected if they don't even know you?", I think at least part of it is people realize how crucial the first impression is to someone creating an opinion of them. Where if you have given a shaky first impression it becomes difficult to overcome, and people with low self confidence can assume they will give a very poor first impression.
that's one nasty assumption to make... I imagine that really messes with your head, because to some degree it is provoking and poking you to do exactly that, even when you never even thought about it
@@MrHastygamer Yea, the projection was a little bit extreme haha. But it was just an anecdotal example of how people may label others as someone to avoid, for their own safety. Whether its school shooter, an aggressive creep or just a rude obnoxious person.
I love it how Dr. K take this as a learning experience for himself as well to better connect and understand people
@@vidzorko4492 You can learn from close- or narrowminded people still. She has her views and opinions and they are valid. I disagree with alot of the things she says and thats totally fine.
I liked her visualization of rejection though and how different it is for men and women because of how we approach each other. It actually makes alot of sense to explain it that way.
Fear of rejection is not about loss of value, its about loss of hope.
I have to agree with you. But I don't think that's the way it is for everyone necessarily.
I grew up in a household that was mostly female dominated. I had to put up with a lot of blame for being male because of the shortcomings of my father. I basically had do be the surrogate father figure for my three younger sisters afther my parents divorced when I was 9 years old. Being the only outlet for my mother's dissappointment in men, I took the brunt of demeaning comments from her. I was basically raised with the assumption that I was not fit to be with a girl/ woman ever, because I was a male and male equals bad - a disaster waiting to happen. This was mostly achieved through comparing me to my father (even though I don't share those bad traits with him) after hearing for years what kind of bad person my father was. My own feelings ended up being neglected, since showing feelings or lashing out was considered to be a proof, that I would be failing and endig up like my father. I had my first girlfriend with 29 - including my first kiss. Up until then I just believed, that relationships are a thing that others do, something that was never meant for me. I went through that "friendzone" bullsh*t during my teenage years, something that reinforced the notion that I was not worthy. I am off my third relationship for a year now and I still tense up when I meet a woman I consider a "possible match", even if it is CLEAR that she is not available. I think - in my case - that is because I grew up with the belief that women are above me. That I, as a man, have to be pleasant an perfect and flawless. And once I am confronted with the slightest possibility that I could be with that woman I get anxious. Because I KNOW I am going to fail. For many years, I was terrified of being rejected. This has somewhat shifted from fear towards resignation. I AM going to be rejected no matter what, since I am inadequate. I know intellectually that this is not true but I still can't shake this feeling.
I hope you’re good now mate but a lot of times I’ve noticed that most people have problems in life because of either an absent father or toxic mother or both.
I'm sorry you had to go through that stuff, dude. I can't tell you how you feel, but I do hope you do take into thought that not everyone in this world has to be perfect because we all screw up, even the ones we deem to be "perfect", but we hardly know what others go through, yet hope that we can be the ones that can comfort them. All I can say is, don't let stuff pressure you from the past, but learn to why you can be the better person now and so forth. As long as you're still breathing, you can still try. Take care of yourself.
My mom does that to me too: I can’t get mad or else I get compared to my dad, who is practically estranged from me now, and whom I still have some trauma from.
damn dude i wish i could hug you
I was raised by a mum with BPD and this also demolished my relationship with women as an adult
Getting rejected based upon a perceived lack of initial interest is still rejection. That’s how dating apps work. I think it should still be understood as something that can be entirely harmless. Hell, this has fueled the creation of art.
sure, but that rejection should only be as surface level as your relationship with the person. if you just saw someone for the first time, was sexually attracted and then got rejected, it’s not nearly on the same level as being rejected by a mother, friend or girlfriend
@@meghanohalloran729you don’t understand rejection in dating for men. Men are expected to be the pursuer in dating which is hard and requires a lot of motivation and investment since especially the men struggling with dating aren’t as socially adept and charismatic.
Society values men and men value themselves on their ability to do well with women. You have heard all of this before.
None of what I said would matter if the man in question had a great social circle and tons more opportunity for women to fall back on, rejection doesn’t hurt when you have other options, but we are in a loneliness epidemic with a record amount of single people so men don’t have that stuff
@@meghanohalloran729 true but when it's often and that is usually the case for men. It can prove to be really damaging and hurtful. You would think constant exposure to rejection would make men neutral. But that isn't the case at all. Just like how constant abuse doesn't fix the issue.
@@meghanohalloran729 wrong.
@@meghanohalloran729 It does not have to be that kind of rejection to hurt a lot though. It causes you to relive every other rejection you've had, many of which are not from strangers but from people who genuinely knew you and were just not interested. The reason for this is that guys are rejected CONSTANTLY, especially in dating where they must approach first.
Even just walking down the street, you are rejected as a guy. People move to the other side of the street. People put as much space between you and them as possible. There is no way to convince your primate brain that this is not complete and utter social rejection, even if these people do not know you. They treat you like a wild animal, on the off chance that you are one of the very few that deserve to be treated that way (which is fair btw, I'm just saying you have no context for how often men are rejected).
There have been pieces written by trans men that put this into perspective as well.
Her logic is very juvenile at times. She often goes to individual examples to attempt to generalize the entire issue based off a specific item. She also never has specific names or statistics to give just things like "all the time" or "many, many times." Then she tops it off by downplaying any plight of the opposite sex because she can't handle admitting that men have plights as well.
Not sure why it's so difficult to understand that it is intimate for men to share their feelings. We are very selective about it, because we expect ourselves to be strong , someone who can provide support instead of needing it. So when we do it, understand that this is special and rare, nothing like the way women do it. And we do not want our problems to be shared around by someone we confided our deepest thoughts in.
oh, women do understand this. Most just dont care, because they love that sweet sweet gossip fuel about someone. He's always just a means to her ends.
Something about Anita's attitude about rejection did not sit right with me. She came off as not being able to understand men's experience of rejection. You could tell by her facial expressions when Dr. K tried to push back that she didn't really want to take it seriously why someone would be really hurt by being rejected sexually. It's not a personal failure of mine if i can't maintain a carefree attitude about rejection, as she apparently can, because i am not her. Much like i can't just wish my depression away and be like a person who does not suffer from depression. There is nothing wrong with my intelligence, and i've tried many times to try to convince my subconscious to not "fear" rejection by different means, even talk therapy. Doesn't work like that.
I think her attitude of others expressing sexual interest also came off so dismissive. Where men are shit with being normal and acting sexual, and where she recognizes that hey men aren't exactly allowed to be sexual beings, she still perpetuates the same idea of mens sexuality = bad.
Argh I hateI'm here trying to stand up for men, but being in a era where men need to embrace Feminism, men should also be able to embrace their own sexuality beyond the idea of dominance and collecting numbers.
But also this is one person's opinion and her experiences and her being a figure does put her in alot of complicated spots
im not anita but i think it might b due to her being demisexual
i am one myself and struggle to understand desires and crushes/love itself
when i was younger and naive i thought people were “being dramatic” when it came to rejection. ive come to feel empathy for people who r rejected now but i dont rlly fully understand what they’re going thru. (ive never had a crush before/never felt love desire for anyone & i am 23 atm so i dont “value”(?) love as others do i suppose sorry if im confusing 😭))
Note that Anita has self-described herself as demisexual, which is borderline asexuality, so it sorta makes sense that she wouldn't really understand the crushing feeling of being sexually rejected.
@@WhiteTigerFox you know what that would make sense, being with someone for 5 years who was demi themselves I do understand that point of view, but again, being one sexuality doesn't mean you shame all other sexuality, and (again just the way I heard her say), it came off in a way where she thinks it's morally wrong to be sexual without knowing someone
@@TactlessGuy I wish I knew that , before listening to the interview. My mind wouldn't be overthinking things if that was the case
As a woman, I can agree with a lot of what she has said. HOWEVER, I also feel that she has clutched into her belief and her specific experience that she has now done the same thing. It seems that she cannot see a man as anything more than someone who wants her, or some other woman.
I would also like to know, how she approaches someone that she’s attracted to, and would like to ask out. Because all people have transactional experiences with others. In fact, any person who has been in a committed, live-in relationship has made some transactions with their partner.
At some quick google searching looking at the trending dramas around Anita, she is very forward and upfront with people she is interested in. If she is wanting to, and willing to hang out and be a friend with a person, she is. She is extremely supportove and caring of her friends, she has friends of all genders and positions in life and grew up with a very hard upbringing and has had more problems than most people do because of her condition, so you may not understand the difficulties she is going through in addition to "just being a woman" because she has a lot of ticks and stuff she cannot control that are actively making her life more difficult especially with the problems she highlights. She doesn't see men as "only people wanting her," she is scared that they will decide they want her and not take no for an answer no matter how long they've supposedly been platonic friends, which is VERY different
From what I've seen as a long time fan of sweet anita is that she troughout her life has had men and even woman fuck zone her to such a dispreportional degree compared to the avarage woman. That it's difficult to suspect anything else from men.
I also know that she has extremely sparingly had a maybe handful of men not do that too her.
Tho the exact details I'm unaware off and I'm quoting from memory.
It'd be good to know that non all men are trying to fuck zone you.
But in her specific case it's not strange or unfair for her to think that.
@@SeanHoltzman not “just a woman.” Quite a bit more, dealing with chronic illness, and several conditions of my own. In fact, the people who actually know me and my life story, feel it is a miracle I’m still on this earth. I listened to the entire interview, she is always the one who approaches and asks for a date, and will never accept a date from anyone who asks her out. This is her prerogative, but I would say that absolutely means that she feels any man who asks her out just wants to fuck her. That’s it, never giving a second thought to perhaps he thought she was a cool chick, or he liked her fashion sense, or perhaps she looked like an old friend and therefore immediately made the man feel at ease; there are many reasons an individual may ask a person out. To me, it seems she has made all of her decisions about men, before ever giving them a chance. But that’s just me.
Bingo. She's doing the exact thing to men that men have done to her. Complete lack of understanding/empathy towards what they go through and where they're coming from. Hopefully more open discussions with ppl from both sides can be had, instead of silos.
@@slow-adhesiveness-4933 I'm not your alpha male, I'm not a movie star, I'm far from smooth, I suffer from crippling self doubt etc etc. And yet, really frickin hot women are happy when I approach them and quite often that leads somewhere. They're totally bored with getting approached by narcissists. Stop theorising to justify your fears. Stop imagining you know what is going on in another person's mind because you've deduced the rules. It makes you look silly.
So. What we have. Most men can't find a girlfriend. Most men don't even have a chance to find a girl or go on a date. On the other hand, even the most terrible girl can easily find a partner for sex and dating. Then someone hurts you there. Who does this? Maybe you are hurting yourself with your choices?
21:20 I absolutely LOVE this point by Anita. The idea that men are undersexualized and women are oversexualized. And then that men and women hear about each other's experiences (men never getting the attention they want and women getting all of the attention they DON'T want) and can't empathize with each other, I love this so much.
I've had this thought kicking around in my head for a long time that each sex has what the other sex wants. Men want attention and women want to be left alone.
I've seen arguments between children that were resolved with empathy. Literally.
It can't be one sided, though. It can't be women empathizing with men's frustration, and men saying, "finally you get it! Will you go out with me now??"
It requires men to understand the frustrations women have - and the dangers men and sex pose to women.
And I commend Dr. K for these shows, because this is exactly what he's trying to do.
You think women don’t like attention?
@@574882 Most people like attention. It's *type* of the attention women get that they don't want. Anonymous attention from people they don't know is fine, especially if they're getting paid, but the sexual advances from men online and in person who they don't find attractive is the attention they don't like.
@@574882 women don't like _unwanted_ attention.
I also think men try to understand women through _projection_ but women's experience in the world is different from men's. (For instance, men rarely get unwanted attention. More specifically, men don't fear violence from women, like women do from men.)
@@574882all humans like attention of some sort, even since babyhood, women just dont like the "bad touch" vibes, i like to describe the bad touch vibes as drawing poop emojis on someone's whole body while they are asleep with permanent marker, so that when they wake up they have to waste days washing it off, such frustration, such insult!
Anita generalizes men the EXACT same way some red pill groups generalize women. This is the toxicity that makes dating miserable for everyone. We need to address both sides, that's what Dr. K does well.
Good point
Yep, this jumped out to me immensely in this conversation. She's doing the exact things men/people have done to her; a complete lack of understanding of the other person/where they're coming from/empathy for their suffering and position. Hopefully HG can provide a more open and safe environment to share perspectives, because on the public domain, 90%+ of the public conversation is around bolstering women and telling men they are priviledged, or at least thats how it feels like. That'll lead to nowhere but resentment on both sides and clowns like Andrew Tate getting huge following simply for acknowledging that men suffer. Not good.
She says generalizations the whole video but then when she talks about rejection, what most people generally do doesn’t matter, only how she personally gives and experiences rejection matter
@@ZapatosVibes Exactly, influential people like her make terrible generalizations and it causes groups of people to be paranoid and scared of another group of people. This is why society is where it's at today
@@varsa507 but women have a right to be scared of men, because men are disproportionally a danger to women, most men are not a threat but some are (some women to but in a way smaller scale), how is someone supposed to know if a certain man is going to be a danger or not, you can’t blame them for being cautious
I honestly believe that some people lack or lost compassion because at one point in their life (or a constant experience), they were hurting and no one gave a f**k. The world treated them like sh*t, so they learned to treat other people like sh*t. It's not too late to change that, life is filled with RNG and those same people could've just asked emotional support from level 100 narcissists (hopefully they also change/d). I hope they find their compassion again.
Really missed these long-form content creator interview content, what a tasteful treat!
Literally this. When the world's given you nothing but shit, you aren't taught how to be a decent person. It doesn't excuse being a horrible person, but it is an explanation. Trauma does weird things to people.
Yeah, I was in the same boat. It took me verbally abusing a cousin of mine to a degree that even I was shocked I ever said those words to him to realize I have become the very thing that I despised with abject hatred. And it was that hatred that led me to do the same. I still regret that to this day because I know those words would also stick to him in the same way the words that plagued my mind for years have.
This was part of a stream, and Dr K talked exactly about this before this
@@csanadtemesvari9251 Yeah, I watched this live. And this belief started after Dr.K explained why people lack compassion. All credits to him tbh.
Literally me right now. My parents kicked me out when I was 19. I have no friends. I've learned that this world doesn't care about anyone and you have to learm to survive on your own. And I'm fine with that, but I sure as hell aint caring about anyone else then.
I think im in the minority when i say i really appreciate her unfiltered view of how she sees friendzoning. The fact that she made me feel uncomfortable and frustrated by her explanation only helped me get a broader perspective that everyones views on the world differ greatly and that despite my biases i was somehow able to see it from her perspective while also dissagreeing heavily. Especially as a guy, I could not relate to a single one of her feelings.
Can you please expand on that? Why did it make you frustrated?
@@nadinesereda-sass158 oh yeah sure, while i dont relate to that guy in in said situation i know a few who have been in those situations. weather it be rejection or freindzoning. and i think there is just a nuance that is tough for each side to understand eachother's intentions and feelings in that situation. and bridging the two sides together may be close to impossible on a widespread scale, i think at least. Im not saying her feelings are wrong but her assumption about the guy in that situation isn't totally aligned with how they actually feel.
Yeah, it's called "being wrong". Another way in which women are just like men: they can be wrong, too. 🤣
i also appreaciated her takes as well as thought of them as partially to extreme. im not a man so can find reesoance and validation in many things she says while i have to acknoledge that she is misssing some pieces of the puzzle. She really brilliantly summarizes the signals someone sends when they eg are afraid of the firendzone. while there might be a valid reason for that kind of concern just accepting the mere concept of it into your world view sends signals of dehumanization and alienation that one would only want to respond to by anger. And anger and not even being shown your not seen fully as a person really is gonna make it hard to want to even see the other side. I wish we could just abandon those weird terms and constructs and look at cases more individually
@@cube22111 She annoys me as hell, I'm not gonna watch that full interview. I think she has a very skewed viewpoint. She sees all men as rapists, and then disregards the whole data of unhappy women who hit the walll, still haven't found a relationship and no longer can. We have the data! And the studies. Women dating options peak at 20 and tank at 40, men dating options is the exact opposite, they peak at 40. It would be fine if she said she doesn't want this and that personally, but when she blames society for trying to teach her these facts, because these impair her freedom... When she's 40, she's gonna blame society again and say, men are all perverts because they want a young, fertile woman.
Not only that, when women get pregnant before 30, they have way less risks of everything, and I would guess (though I'm not a woman) that they're not keen on having a c-section.
I bet that she's going into clubs to drink, sexy dressed, maybe with makeup, and then is surprised that the drunks are approaching her, and from there she deducts that all men are like that. It's not like she gets approached on the street at daylight.
Fairly frustrated by this interview. Not really sure why. I felt like it wasn't much of a conversation and more like a lecture about what it's like to be a woman and how much that sucks.... thats cool but what made these kinds of interviews good was how they dived into the individual person's experiences and thier own perspectives. Instead this was a wierd conversation about other people in the general case (men and women as a group)
@@rulingstone123 wow get triggered much?
btw ever think that you might be the problem here? the judgement is just oozing out of your comment. you literally dont know anything about me, but since im presenting as a male, you assume the worst.
she said a lot of sweeping statements that apply broadly, and didnt bring much of her own personal perspective into things. meanwhile the other interviews dive deep into the personal details of the person being interviewed.
just compare this one to the trump supporter interview and youll see what i mean. Or the therapy gecko one. both were great.
the bar to measure against here is: can I get this information from anywhere on the internet? This video here was not really bringing anything that new to the table, just to a new audience. this channel has done better than that in the past.
@@rulingstone123 point out one sentence from my 2 comments that are saying that her experiences do not exist. go on. do it.
read what I wrote again, and youll notice I AM ASKING FOR HER TO SHARE HER PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. SHE DID NOT SHARE ENOUGH. THAT IS THE COMPLAINT.
@YourMajesty you know what the problem is here? You are trying to tell me what I am thinking and what the subtext is behind my comments as if you somehow know my mind better than I do. And you literally have never met me before. It's one comment and all of a sudden you know what's going on. Maybe there's someone in your life that is like this, but don't put that on me.
That's the same shit Anita was doing in this video. Talking about what the guys are all thinking about as if she knows. Dr K tried to get her to talk more about that and she just blew past it.
But that's a huge fucking problem. You don't know what strangers have going on in their heads. The sooner you accept that the sooner your relationships with other people will improve, and I'm not just talking romantic.
That's exactly what was frustrating me about this video as a whole. Don't tell me what men think and how they treat people. Tell me what you think and how people treat you. Its a video about you.
And yeah, her comments about rejection and the complete lack of empathy she displayed made me really fucking uncomfortable. The idea that a guy approaching you at a bar only wants your body is another one. I personally have a lot of bullshit going on in my head when it comes to my fear of intimacy. It's not easy getting out of my head to try to get out there and find someone to ultimately have kids with. And the idea of the other person being all judgemental and unempathetic is triggering AS FUCK. Jesus I hope I don't end up with someone like her. But I probably won't since this whole fear of intimacy thing goes too deep anyway.... fuck it why am I wasting time here.
@YourMajesty
> don't tell me how men think and what men do to people. Tell me what you think and what men did to you.
It's a relatively minor nitpick, but its still what frustrates me with the video.
Not saying she didn't experience this stuff. Just pointing out what I didn't like about the vid.
Watch the other interviews I mentioned, therapy gecko was a great one. Trump supporter too. The first incel one as well.
This got me thinking...
When she said that it's not normal to see a person and immediately get scared of rejection when thinking about talking to them... I thought about how it feels when you see an potential client, or a potential business partner.
You get scared of rejection in the same manner because that person has something you want, and you're afraid that if you fail to convince them, then you'll have lost any future chance of getting what you want from that specific person.
And since every woman is a different mostly unique package, then the anxiety gets even higher, because you'll have lost any chance to "get" that specifically unique "product or service". Since no one can offer exactly the same.
I mean, it's the same feeling.
And it's scary, because you're so focused on what you want... that you don't care at all about what the other person wants.
You're not thinking about how you can serve that client or enrich that woman's personal life experience. You're wholly focused on "how can I extract what I want out of this person", and that is frankly a shitty way to do business or approach relationships.
I mean, we all despise that salesman-kind of attitude that's just trying to manipulate you into giving them your money, to manipulate you into saying "yes".
And I imagine, for many women it's exactly like that.
That is a veeeery good description. Now the horrible misconception here is, not your mistake LOL. The misconception is part of what is actually happening in these exact scenarios!!
There is a false assumtion going on with the "sales person" (and sometimes also the "client" towards the "company"): In which they are convinced, that the difference in "deals" equals difference in happiness. And that is a terrible lie we were taught!!!!!
Turns out, that missing out on deals is not a big problem. ESPECIALLY when your main income isn't (and never should!!!) relying on the success of these deals to start with, but rather your regular "prouct sales" (e.g. exchanges taking place during: self-care, friends, family, work relationships, platonic fun social interactions with strangers).
As it turns out, you can be missing out on many "unique deals" and not lose much at all. On the contrary, you can gain. Every time you get scared of the loss, you can learn how to process loss. NOT to be numb to loss, but to be OK sitting with the feeling of loss!!!!! And then you stop obsessing over lost deals. You can offer deals and see of there's interest. And when there isn't, then you sit with loss and appreciate the avoidance of getting stuck with an unwilling client!!! It gets easier and easier to truly look at your clients and what both of you need to be satisfied with whatever business echange you may have!
Losses are scary, because you are tying your worth and success to the client, when they have 1000 reasons to have different needs than you! Losses are scary, because you believe that you must bend to serve clients. When in reality, the whole point is: The business offers what it sees clients need AND is within the businsses means and interest. And clients choose to come in and choose to express what else they may need. And from there, talks are held, which needs can be covered between these parties and which need to be supplied by external parties. So, it actually doesn't even matter if the clients and their deals are different! X'DDDD You just cover what you can, and many different parts will always be supplied by other parties!
The consistant part is you, the sales person and your offer. What business goes and overthrows itself, each time a client comes into the shop, takes a round and leaves without buying anything? :'D And if the shop shuts down cause noone buys, does the sales person cease to work??? Or live??? Or do they check on themselves and see what next step they can take?
This is great! First half I was pissed at you like in "we are not products!" way. But somehow I continued reading and was like "oh.. it's just model and a very good one". So, thanks for good model and you also seem to have good writing skills, so my compliments there too:)
@@KxNOxUTA, I love that you took my analogy and ran with it.
I completely agree. Relying on a single potential client to make up the whole worth of your business is a terrible strategy indeed.
And it is also true that many times you're just not supposed to be doing business with certain people. Those clients may look alluring... They may look like big catches... But the truth may be that they're a horrible fit for your business's goals and aspirations.
So it turns out that sometimes, many rejections are just protecting you both, the client and yourself, from getting involved in a deal that will only bring ruin to both of your businesses.
So we gotta learn to be lighthearted about it. Not all deals are meant for our business.
And in very much the same manner, not all relationships are meant for our lives.
And we gotta learn to be okay with that truth.
Just like in business...
Exactly! The first premise someone is working from is what is wrong in the first place: how can I extract something out of them? They're not seeing women as humans, they're seeing them as some kind of vending machine. No one should expect or feel entitled to anything from anyone because wtf? A lot of guys need to deprogram from all that shit that pickup artists have shoveled into their brains. They need to not even consider them as a source of information because what they're selling is literally based on misogynistic bullshit. It's also so detrimental to men as well because of all the internalized patriarchal bullshit. It teaches guys how to be disassociated and detached not only from themselves, but from people around them. And that is the basis of this isolation.
@@Sarah-re7cg This crap is not even coming from pickup artists.
It's simply our natural inclination to treat every obstacle as a puzzle to solve.
When we want something, our natural first response is to approach the issue from logic, and try to create a path in our mind to reaching that goal.
But human relationships aren't as clean cut. Outcomes aren't as clearly defined. And things get messy often. Which is why approaching it from logic *is* the mistake.
Human relationships aren't a problem to be solved. They are an experience to be lived and shared.
Outcomes don't matter. What matters is the shared journey. The feelings shared. And the joy experienced. The tears, the bliss, the heartbreak, all of it!
To live it fully, and earnestly. Without having a specific goal in mind.
Simply... to be in the moment...
That's how the best friendships are experienced, and the best courtships too.
46:34 "Sleep with me or I dump you as a friend".
She seems to grossly misunderstand what's going on with that "dump you as a friend" thing.
It's not like the dude is "just waiting for her to sleep with him" or considered her a waste of time unless she slept with him.
The thing is, you can't be friends with someone you're romantically interested in. Hanging out with someone who doesn't reciprocate your feelings is painful. Hanging out with someone you're in love with, but can't get involved with romantically is painful. Hanging out with someone you're in love with, but they see other people is painful.
Once you fall in love with a woman, it really is a choice between a romantic relationship or nothing. That doesn't mean a man considered you a waste of time or that he only hung out with you because he hoped for sex.
You're not entitled to someone else's friendship, ffs.
then i ask myself, how do women handle a situation like that, where a man they are in love with, "friendzones" her? Does she still want to be friends with him?
She explains in a lot of her streams that those are usually people that claimed to be her friend only, and whom she specifically warned "I don't like people hitting on me or asking me out, I am not interested in a relationship". Those are the people that claimed to not be interested romantically and became her friends to then try and hit on her after a while; and then they say "I can't be your friend" after she rejects them, which is heart-breaking for her, because it turns out they weren't her friends and it's painful to lose people
@@Lumen1511 She could've backed her view with her personal experience and tie it to that, and not lump all of the male population into her experience. Hope you get my point.
@@Lumen1511 how about this, only viewing a woman and only wanting to be formed with her, but as you get to know her those feeling start to change. People change, and it has nothing to do with bidding intent or lying.
@@Lumen1511 could still be that those men were okay with that and jsut NATURALLY developed feelings DURING the friendship.
Sorry but Anita harshly generalizes all men multiple times in this interview.
It's funny how many people forgets to see the opposite gender as just people
I always wanted to be a friend with someone first, before dating her. I've sort of had the opposite problem with women not understanding that I would be open to dating them if they would bother to be my friend first.
That what I did to find my husband. We both stay in the friendzone for a long while. Checking if we can be friends before blooming this into something else.
Been married to him for 14 years.
Being friend is actually important and all friendships grows but it doesn't always grow in the same way and if you don't have feelings and the other one have them it's actually healthy to stop that relationship and everyone should respect this hard situation on both side.
Hah, I love how he immediately rejected the idea that you cannot be rejected without being known. Anita, approaching someone and even several meters away without even saying a word, being greeted by the hardest eye-roll and the most annoyed look known to mankind is not exactly confidence boosting. Being (non verbaly) told I am not even worth a human greeting is some hardcore rejection.
Edit: keep in mind, if you actually choose someone to shoot your shot at, you
1. noticed something you liked about that person
2. you have a goal, it's insanely hard not to have hopes and dreams about how that is going to go. expectation -> suffering
It takes a lot of introspection to get over that. It's not by default.
I assume that according to your high moral stance of how Anita and all woman should school their face to smile pleasantly at everyone "giving a human greeting", you are not a hypocrite and you smile kindly at elderly ladies and gentelman, at obese ladies and gentelman at ugly ladies and gentelman and at children? Because I don't get why this addresses specifically woman?
@@hdshjs Assume along. No where did I make a moral judgment, it's going to have reasons people act a certain way and I certainly didn't say anything about smiling.
I did say, that recoiling at the idea of any form of interaction is a form of rejection even if you nothing about them. And taking that action personal is the default option for most people.
He had to take some time to think about what to say after that moment but he was immediately able to push back on her rejection explanation because it’s so obviously not the reality for men and women.
She talks for the whole video about studies and macropicture generalizations but then when she talks about rejection, it’s all personal anecdotes.
I like her mindset that she only wants to date people that she asks out but that’s not reality. She talked about how she handles rejection because she knows that’s not how it mostly jappens
i don’t think it’s your fault, most people just don’t like being approached by strangers i think
@@julius-ceasar wrong.
Agh the compliment thing is so real. I come from a toxic family and kids being nice to me at school used to boggle my mind lol.
It's so true that men will receive a genuine compliment on a random afternoon and hold on to it for the rest of our lives
@@steveloge8119 well, let today be that afternoon! If that's you on the photo - gorgeous beard and objectively a very handsome man who's rocking said beard! **bows and fades back into shadows**
A date told me there's no point complimenting me. With my looks I probably hear that I'm pretty all the time. I was an adult and had only been told it once.
@@steveloge8119 I still distinctly remember being called handsome at prom like 10 years ago
Idk why men not being complimented would ever be a reason for assault. There are ugly women too who never get compliments and they generally aren’t creating revenge porn or murdering sex workers.
As far as I listen to her, she basically judges everything from a viewpoint that everything against women is cultural injustice. I mean when she says that sex workers are being replaced when they are old and that it is happening because we as a society have something against women’s sexuality that’s just takes a cake.
Or "murders of sex workers are rarely investigated". Ok are the murders of drug dealers and pimps investigated? Like cmon now, murders in general are not investigated, murders of low class common criminals are certainly not investigated. Not that i think sex work should be illegal but it is.
I'm not deep in this yet but Anita Sarkissian did not "just review" games.
This is just such a disingenuous statement.
Not to justify any harassment she may have experienced, but the backlash against her was definitely not without merit.
I am confused and do not understand why so many commenters are saying she's so intelligent or insightful.
What I've heard is a bit of her contradicting herself while making sweeping generalizations of men. She seems well-intentioned and passionate, but unable to fathom that her opinion or assumption might be wrong, or even that what she's saying is an opinion or assumption.
Women and men go through life with a variety of struggles. Most struggles overlap while some fall to one side or the other or vary in degree. The best we can do is seek to understand, empathize, and support. Somewhere in the rise of absurd manosphere and toxic feminist circles, we've lost sight of the fact that the only way to win is to play in coop mode.
Best comment
"I am confused and do not understand why so many commenters are saying she's so intelligent or insightful."
most people are stupid and mentally lazy, and accept the first conclusion given to them from the outside that best fits their personal selfish preconceptions.
everything anita said falls into 2 categories:
- false information.
- information exaggeratedly generalized and emphasized beyond proportion.
The halo effect ;)
She didn't contradict herself at all. You just spend too much learning lies and misinformation online.
@wanderingrogue3039 You really needed this validation, didn't you.
it honestly heartbreaking to hear her train of thoughts. seeing a guy nervous across the room and thinking he's just lusting over her body and scared that he dosent get what he wants and will try to manipulate his way into her pants or whatever. this is such a hateful way of looking at it, im sure there is plenty of guys like this but men in general are raised to be the approacher and ask the woman out, ofcourse he's attracted to you and want sex but what make you think he dosent want a relationship too? its not like guys are raised starving for attention and pretty much told you either approach girls or die alone. let alone being extra starve for affection because they just dont get it at all.
its weird and hearbreaking way of looking at it honestly
Yeah. If a man expressed a similar kind opinion about women, he would have been labeled an incel or some color pill shit. But if a woman expresses some BS opinion that a man who takes steps towards attracting a woman is "lusting over her and trying to manipulate her" and "just wants her for sex", well, that's a totally fine way to talk about men, their emotions, and their struggles.
Women seem to get a lot more leeway with expressing toxic viewpoints about men than men to about women.
100% true. Way I was raised and a lot of people were raised it's men have to offer and put themselves on the line.
It is, I find more and more women today viewing men in an unconditionally bad light and, honestly, I no longer have the energy to defy it. At this point many just see you as a 2nd class citizen, nothing more. Not all women, but apparantly all men. I'm exhausted of resisting it anymore so fuck it, man bad all the way. If you believe it I have no interest trying to change your world view of it anyway, wish them a good life and move on.
@@omnissiah7247 I understand your frustration and lack of energy. I think that there are a lot of double standards in this regard and that we are in a situation where men are demonized for nearly everything they do. But I don’t think it’s because men are naturally bad, I think that everything that is being labeled bad is just a matter of misinformation and misunderstanding of major components of what makes up men. It feels like society is just too immature to handle these topics respectfully and responsibly. We have many sides screaming their opinions and trying to justify their actions while also trying to prove a point.
There is an overall lack of healthy communication and understanding between people especially between the two sexes which is what is breeding these unhealthy behaviors and unhappy situations. Which is particularly due to the toxic environment of society. Every side in one form or another has been stuck in an echo chamber where they are stuck in their own heads, and while some groups will take the extra step to try and understand and regain some common ground of
mutual understanding, others will stubbornly hold strong to their positions without any consideration that they may be wrong in their thinking which usually resets everything and we are back at base 1. I just hope eventually we have a great enlightenment and most of society wakes up to what they are doing and what is actually happening so we can better understand ourselves and each other. But that probably won’t happen anytime soon. But at least I see people talking about this which is a step in the right direction.
@@zorkan111 I see lots of your comments, what seems like anger posting about her response. Perhaps if you look at her responses in a lens of "what can I learn" instead of eww evil none of what she says is right, you'll start to see where she comes from. I think what Anita fails to say is that men who are doing the "lusting and manipulating" aren't doing it consciously. That they have been taught a way of looking at women through a lens of the chase, and that the things they have been taught are normal to these men, and not their fault (although still their responsibility). These men aren't inherently of bad character for doing these things necessarily. There's a nuance here I'm not qualified to give, but I hope you can see where I'm going.
Isnt it normal to not wanna be friends with someone who rejected you?
I mean I don't wanna be friends, I wanna be together but since you don't want that this relationship is done. Would be to hurtful to be with a girl you actually like knowing nothing can happen between you.
Guys aren't entitled to romantic relationship with a girl just because he likes her
And
Girls aren't entitled to a friendship with a guy who they have rejected.
Exactly. The funny thing is that she doesn't understand how entitled she is.
It's like if someone who you trusted and felt close to came to you one day all of a sudden and said "I want you to build me a house". And when you said no (and also how did they even get the idea), they'd say you no longer can be friends. Like sure, you're not entitled to their friendship, but also WTF? What house? There was never talk of any house. And now you're losing a friend over it. What the hell?
I agree, it's better to cut it off than staying in a friendship with unmet needs. The frustration will just boil over for the rejected person, go find someone else you'll have a more fulfilling relationship with.
entitlement is one thing and pretending is another. She was clear from the jump to her male friends that they're just friends and they accepted it but stopped because they can't pretend to be her friend anymore. Now that's on you.
I think what she doesn't realize is that the primary reason that these guy's feel and behave this way is because the believe/were taught that love is transactional. "If I want any girl to like me I have to somehow become worthy of liking by doing xyz" is exactly what someone thinks when they don't think they are inherently deserving of love. I think some of this is from parenting issues, some of this is from early rejections in childhood traumatizing them, some of this for me was that people (girls and guys) often used me for various things and I learned that the only way to socialize with people was to let them use me and as a reverse I tried to use them back so it wasn't just people walking over me. Almost none of these behaviors are caused by inherent evil or often even malicious intentions. Their usually a mix of bad parenting, trauma, bad examples, and they are never taught how to live
Exactly, it's externalising your self worth and it affects both men and women. She showed quite a lack of empathy there which is a shame but I get that she has things in her past that may preclude her from doing so.
"I think what she doesn't realize is that the primary reason that these guy's feel and behave this way is because the believe/were taught that love is transactional."
Then it's not love anymore, it's lust.
Women are also transactional, the only difference is that they don't have to pretend not to be transactional in order to get la1d.
"If I want any girl to like me I have to somehow become worthy of liking by doing xyz"
If I want any guy to like me, I have to somehow look pretty, youthful and have a hot body so that I get attention.
Same ish. In that scenario, If either got rejected they're not a victim. They're just unattractive.
Something that stands out to me in this expression of how things are happening in Anita's perspective is an attribution of intent. Nobody but the person doing the act can explain the intent behind an action. Intent is an internalized expression of will. For Anita to say that someone's intent was X, Y, or Z without them coming out and saying it in those terms is a false attribution of intent, which is no different than lying about intent. If Anita is going to express any intent, she should stick to her own. She can speak of her own feelings, of her own experiences, or repeat explicit quotes from people claiming intent, but it's bad form to put words in someone else's mouth.
You’re acting as if what she’s saying happens in a vacuum, but enough of these experiences are brought into light (as well as the way guys express themselves on the internet) to the point where this is clearly a trend of sorts.
No she is not a mind reader, and I do think she should better draw distinctions between her own experiences and the world around her, but to state that the way these personal experiences are framed are tantamount to lies is…extremely disingenuous.
It implies the her experiences are one-off and not at all the consequences of behaviors we see and observe constantly
Both men and women do this (attribution bias) all the time and not just with friendships or potential romantic interests. Keep in mind it's really hard for anyone to not let his/her experience lead them to generalizations that aren't really general, instead, just reflects their experiences with an skewed group of people. Even if I don't agree with her generalizations, I totally understand where they come from, and also I don't know her well enough to really know if she just internalized it and applies such judgement by default on everyone that approaches her or not. Also, I live in another continent, am not related to her in any way and it's very unlikely that we'll ever cross paths, so there's no really much point in me trying to judge her based on that.
I've had quite a few unpleasant/hurtful experiences in the past that may very well had left me paranoid and resentful if circumstances were just a little different, but that wouldn't do me any good. That's a very common reaction, that's why so many men are going the incel/mgtow path and so many women are going the radical feminist path. Knee-jerk reactions are the most obvious pattern in human behavior, it's up to each and every one of us to decide if we're gonna play that stupid game or if we're going to try to stay rational, but it's often hard, painful and requires us to look deep inside ourselves to try to figure out how much of our own insecurities and bad decision making led us to previous bad experiences.
It isn't just bad form it is poor mental health. Mind reading other peoples intentions is a projection behaviour and quite toxic. A little time online or watching debates will show you this behaviour has become painfully common no matter the sex or gender but it is more common in this who are emotionally dysfunctional in some fashion.
I would suggest looking up statistics then
There is a separate type of friendzone that gets rarely talked about: Those who for some reason are unable to clearly express their interest in someone, and instead, send out the wrong signals, signals of a platonic friendship. Those people don't feel entitled to the other person's genitals, they do view the other person as a person, but feel miserable, because it seems to them as if no one is interested in them romantically, and/or they feel miserable because they feel that something is wrong with _them_, but can't find out what exactly. This can be heartbreaking and soul-crushing. These people aren't assholes; rather, they need someone to talk to. But often, they are also loners who have trouble connecting with people in general.
The best remedy is a friend who for example watches them when they try to approach someone who they are romantically interested with. The feedback they get from that friend can then be eye-opening. One example for a wrong signal is that they just never clearly ask that person out for a date, and rather, just talk about hanging out, going shopping etc. - stuff that friends do. These people then often are unaware that they are doing this, so a friend who then tells them "you should have asked him/her out directly" would help out so much.
You are responsible for your own life and self growth. I see men waiting for someone to come save them or show them the way.
Taking ownership of what you don’t know and then taking action to learn on your own is just how life goes.
If you waited for someone how to tell you to do everything at work, then you’d never be employed or promoted.
Yes it’s uncomfortable and yes you will make mistakes but that is life.
Take ownership and stop making excuses.
I think a lot of people's problems roots in problems in self-confidence and insecurities, in one way or another. Even for the "assholes". Self-confidence helps to be OK with rejection, because the person know that it does not mean that they suck as a person, they would still feel safe with their self image to not be destroyed by a rejection. So yes, I agree with you, I think most people who are sick scared of rejection just need someone to talk to, maybe a therapist too, to help themselves build a solid self image that will not be shaken by being rejected by someone else.
@meredithwilliams4326 thanks for the casual reminder men are alone in the world and no one wants to help.
A lot of men grew up without good male role models so not knowing how to approach romantically, either through over or under shooting, is increasingly common. The danger is over shooting will sometimes work so gets reinforced.
I (female) actually started finding a way to sneak in that I have a boyfriend in the first 5 minutes with just about any guy. Not like, "I have a boyfriend," but like "O yeah my boyfriend loves that video game."
Thank you, I can tell you're a really kind and gentle person, very tactful. Please teach more wmn to do it this way
I always wondered if women do that deliberately!
@luddite31 TBH, I'm not trying to lead anyone on, and I just wanna be friends, so the quicker we get on the same page that I'm looking for friendship over romance, the better. I can't speak for everyone tho.
That being said, I personally have close friends that I would probably die for, so being designated as a friend instead of a lover isn't an insult.
It's just we're monogamous creatures, so we can't have sex as I have found someone for that role, ya know?
i do thatttt
As a dude, I greatly appreciate stuff like this. I would never want someone to knowingly try to come between my gf and I when I have one, so I hold myself to the same standard. When a girl makes it clear she's taken, it makes conversation so much easier to navigate because I cut out any and all idea of being flirty.
Lack of understanding or awareness about why something is considered offensive doesn't justify disrespectful behavior towards someone.
The problem with Anita's perception of regection is that she both rejects and is being rejected. For quite a lot of men it's simply not the case. You just get rejected and you feel like there's no other way to get a date (even if you don't like her)
That is a major explanation that needs to be discussed but it’s not the only one.
On top of men having to always be the pursuers, we are also in a loneliness epidemic that’s mostly affecting men. When you have basically nothing if this person rejects you, that makes it hurt more. Being able to fall back on good friends and more options for gfs makes it not hurt.
men are only able to gain social, flirting and dating skills by going out and pursuing it and women have to deal with a bunch and gain those skills.
This is also why men kind of have to put more effort into approaching, women have seen the basic stuff before. Approaching men to try to make friends and even for sex/relationships doesn’t require as much effort into what you are saying
@@MaejorArray It IS mostly affecting men. Men are vastly more likely to live alone than women.
Men are also VASTLY more likely to not be in a relationship or to have had one in the last years.
Men are also having significantly lower amounts of sexual experiences and most men these days by 18 will be virgin, which is significantly lower for women.
Why do you think redpill/tate/incel/MGTOW whatever communities are growing significantly?
Also, the thing about violence is just straight up a misandry stereotype. It's like me saying women are just usually the ones to react with emotional abuse as a result of loneliness. Men = violent propagates the male sexuality being creepy stereotype.
@@MaejorArray wrong.
@@manumaster1990 Stella rebuttal...
They're not saying the violent reaction is inherently masculine / a born characteristic of men. It's taught. Violence and revenge is glorified in the media and culture overall as justice and a masculine action/reaction. So when reality comes knocking at the door of many young men without a support system plus who are emtionally closed off (also taught) making them realise, that they have to work at themselves to be *desirable* to women/girls as well adjusted people, then they lash out at women/girls (I.e. the desired objects) for rejections. Bc instead of the promise and images patriarchy sold to them irl women/girls are as complex of human beings as they're.
Women on the other hand are taught to be gentle and open with emotions so it's easier to have close friendships that support eachother. And if a women is angry and or violent they're labelled as undesirable, rude, hysterical that's why female rage is suppressed as opposed to manifesting in violent ways. No putting any moral judgements on either sides. These are observations of what the system teaches to and expects of both genders.
Anita: "you can't be rejected until the person knows you"
Anita: "i don't date people i dont ask out"
The dichotomy of expecting people not to expect things beyond or outside of friendship ever but predicating the idea of rejection or acceptance itself not existing until someone is intimately close, before even starting a relationship is probably the source of friendzones
you should probably try and dismantle this concept of being stuck in a «friend zone » it will be ultimately very damaging for all your relationships with women, instead you should focus on seeing them entirely as a person (which you need to know a person before you can develop any romantic feelings). Being immediately sexually attracted to someone isn’t enough and doesn’t entitle either party to seeking anything more than a friendship
*friend zone
@@meghanohalloran729 ahh i lve never been in the friend zone
I was just examining the dynamics i think lead to those scenarios
Look, people work on a spectrum, not in clear cut boxes!
You are not expected to never have a change of feelings in relationships or pretend you don't have feelingss. You are expected to give proper raport of where you are at and allow the other person to check where they are at. And you are expected to manage your emotions and behaviours REGARDLESS of the outcome of the negotiation.
She does not date people she does not ask out, cause she needs time to develop feelings. Because she's got trauma to handle!
-> You can like a person and befriend them to get to know each other. If you develop further feelings: talk! Process the outcome.
-> if you already have feelings, talk right away about being interested in dating! Process the outcome!
There is no "friend zone". That is what we call it, when:
- a person enters a friendship although they clearly have romantic interest already (aka betrayal of friendship)
- when friends develop romantic feelings, doesn't communicate them and is resentful (betrayal of friendship)
- when a friend develops romantic feelings, communicates them, gets turned down, is presented with an option to part or stay friends, chooses friendship BUT does continue to feed their romantic feelings rather than processing them in order to have a fully blown frindship (aka betrayal of friendship)
-> You do not need to be friends to get to know a person. It's called "dating" or "hanging out in group setting" or "being acquaintaned"
-> You do not have to have stable feelings towards other people. We all change through time. You are expected to be ready to handle change maturely and be ready to seriously priorise your choices (aka be ready to lose a friendship and part ways in mutual respect OR take a break from friendship to process the romantic feelings and choose friendship without resentment). You can expect issues, if you cannot stabilise your thoughts and emotions within a relationship for prolonged periods
"friend zone"'s true name is "resentment".
Anita said, that a "no" to a stranger, is not a personal rejection.
Anita said, that she gets to know people and then sometimes develops feelings and then communicates those. Noone said no friend can ever develop romantic feelings. What she talk about is "As women, we lose too many male friends to their inabiliy to process their feelings sufficiently and be capable of maintaining a friendship once we have ruled out romance!". Not the "having feelings" is the issue. It's the "not knowing how to attend to them in mature ways". Feelings happen all the time. If you ever fell in love with a high authority person (or distant celebrity), still could maintain a work relationship (or your sanity) and managed to get to the point where they were "a person you liked" but no longer a love interest, then you KNOW how to do it!
We sure as heck do not blame people for loving deeply! We are upset with the expectation of that having to result in relationship and only romantic relationship. And we are very upset with attention that is objectifying and has nothing to do with love or romanic relationship (aka men struggling with knowing what their intrinsic motivators are). Or upset with even musual purely sexual agreements that end up not mutual, but rather self-serving on one end.
I hope this helps to clarify some stuff. These seem to be key points that are frequently lost and miscommunicated.
No. Absolutely not. I fucking hate that phrase "friend zone." Becoming friends with someone allows you to actually get to know them. If you are unable to see women, even those you're initially attracted to first as a friend or someone to get to know, I dont know what to tell you. It's not seeing women as having some kind of humanistic intrinsic value, it's seeing them only as someone to potentially fuck.
She has a lot of interesting points, but I really don't like her idea that just because people, in this case men or mostly teenage boys have trouble talking to the opposite sex, she thinks it's because they're bad people for some stupid reason or another. I personally was bullied by most girls my age until I was 14, so it took a while for me to act "normal" with them. It wasn't the hardest thing ever, but I had to learn by myself that not every girl is gonna hate me the second she sees me, but some people will struggle with that. Pretty hateful and judgmental stance to have on this. Asking for empathy and having none whatsoever to give back, she even says so herself.
Yep, it's a deeply sexist assumption from her.
She got me feeling like a sexist when I agree with her?? I’m so confused…
@@fergalicious6337 She's a sexist no doubt about that
As an attractive 25 year old man, I have found that being a safe and respectful person towards women in every possible way allows the people around me to put their guards down. And it is from this unguarded position tends to flip the script. Women who like me approach me and let me know and can even sometimes treat me in ways that would typically make a girl uncomfortable if a man treated her in the same way.
A way to shortcut this is to walk through the world in respect to whoever you'll end up with in the end of it all. Why waste time trying to manipulate someone else into intimacy when they have no desire to be intimate with you already? Just love yourself as if that person who wants you is already there and wants the best for you.
Oh that last part is great but I found it helpful not to say "as if", because I learnt that the person that loves me and wants the best for me is already there and it's myself.
Learnt that after a harsh rejection. Now I'm engaged, 36 years old and 7 weeks out from the birth of my first son.
Her concept of the friend zone is odd... she's implying that people cannot grow feelings for each other by getting to know each other more and supporting each other and going through experiences. She's assuming you immediately like someone and if you get feelings down the line or build attachment you are manipulative and a bad person.
Maybe that is true for those who have honed their skills... But when boys will be boys is a phrase that exudes emotional neglect, it is hard to understand this subtly when it's coming from such an emotional deficit due to social emotional neglect of men that results in "normative male alexithymia".
Yeah, she doesn feel rather "black and white" on sexual attraction.
Yeah, and that whole point doesn't resonate with what she's saying somewhere after 1 hour mark. Especially in that "I'm the initiator" part of the dialogue. So like it's okay if she would grow feelings and then tells, but somehow she completely denies the same possibility for the other side
I agree. She comes off very judgemental, assumptive, and condescending.
I think she just lost too many friends to that
I appreciate Anita and always enjoyed her interviews, but I feel like in this interview particularly there have been some great overgeneralizations and even dangerous assumptions in my opinion. For example, I feel like it's a dangerous message to send to women that they shouldn't go to the police after being SA'ed because 'the police will do background checks on you and try to discredit you', and while this happens in some places in the world (Japan for example is notoriously bad at handling these cases), it's inaccurate to say that this is always how it is.
Another example is with the idea that when a woman does OnlyFans or pornography and then becomes a teacher, that she gets fired immediately. This is true, but it is equally true to male porn stars. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that society sees men (unlike women)'s sexuality as a dangerous thing, and so nobody could convince me that if the school's management found out that Mr.Smith also goes by "Bob the Gangbanger", that they would not immediately fire them on the spot.
I understand that this is how she feels, and after what she went through I can't even blame her for feeling this way, but I would be lying if I said that I feel like a lot of her arguments felt somewhat one-sided and should at the very least be challenged.
Again, not trying to invalidate her experiences or how she feels, but something about the way things were being said bothered me.
Agreed, i just really appreciate how she stands up for sex workers, who are often dehumanized. she could have been more clear that she was talking about sex workers of all genders. at least i hope she was.
Also, I disagree with her story about guys who are afraid of getting rejected because they're afraid of failing to fulfill their sexual needs with her body, like, omg o_o are guys, or even anyone else, just not allowed to be attracted to anyone else? Like, sorry, not sorry, not everyone is demisexual...
@@vidzorko4492 word
In the UK, if you report a r*pe to police, they're allowed to take the victim's phone and search everything on there, and they are also allowed to use the victim's therapy notes. They do this to discredit the victim so it doesn't go to court, if you don't believe me look it up.
@@Bioniclema90 Yeah and moreover, it's so incredibly damaging to have women tell you that all you want is sex. It's putting you in this box where you're like a dog wagging his tail at a treat, and it feels so dehumanizing honestly. I can look at a girl and think she has beautiful eyes and a nice smile and it makes me feel warm inside. I can look for deeper connections with people. As a man, it can be so so damaging hearing that opinion, because we are not taught about that as kids, and now every time we feel something, we immediately have to chalk it up for just being "sexual desire", and its so confusing.
It also adds to the harmful idea that men and women cannot be friends, 'because if you feel even remotely affectionate towards your female friends, you must want more'.
I had to talk with my friends about this to fully understand this, but as someone who grew up with a misandrist mother (whos is much better these days, love you mom lol), _that_ is what really bothered me.
You guys, we can feel emotions too, and we aren't wrong or bad for feeling them.
This is an interesting interview to listen to. As a woman, for me personally I would prefer to have feelings develop by getting to know each other. I want someone to value me for more than my looks, because as we age we will eventually lose the things that people may have found attractive initially. Friendship is a good basis that can lead to more.
If a man is upfront about his romantic desires from day 1, I do appreciate that honesty but if they have not known me it's difficult for me to get something started so soon. In addition, a lot of these men who approached me about love had done so with a lot of extremely negative undertones of desperation and unrealistic expectations. Desperation adds pressure, which kills attraction for me. And expectations can result in disappointments. One spoke poorly about his ex girlfriend and was talking of ways to take revenge, or prove her wrong, which I am not here for. If he speaks poorly about an ex in such a way, I'd fear he would treat me with such vengefulness or bitterness as well. Negativity is fine to a certain extent, unless there are indicators this may be harmful for future relationships too.
Key thing is pacing, I have spoken to women guilty of the above as well. I overshare too soon and lose opportunity to make friends because of that.
Treat each other you like as you would a friend, build it up slowly over time, and it will increase chances. I'd definitely be attracted to a man who shows me their hobbies, I show mine, we spend time on activities and make our talks personal as time progresses.
Honestly this is a great post and this is how i learnt to do it as a guy. Honestly i don't ask woman out at all. It puts folks on the spot. I love being friends with folks though, i really value relationships with everyone, so there is no expectations. Not only can it be attractive to see the hobby, but sometimes you can share one you didn't know about.
One day, you just turn around and you are looking at each other differently!
It takes longer and more effort but it has worked for me. Its got be safer too, i think. Random person on street, that you like, how do u know if they are any good as a romantic partner. Also i've seen the movie Under the Skin...just saying lol
You are speaking in near direct opposition to Anita here and to me goes to show one of the reasons why dating and relationships are so difficult. There are no rules to this courting process, it's just "do whatever you want" and hope that the person sitting across from you views that as the appropriate courtship dance.
It still to this day is amusing if not worthy of asking why it is that we humans can't agree on what rituals are to be performed in order to adequately and appropriately display mutual interest so as to seek to minimize suffering in the process. I believe both genders capable of coming to such a conclusion in the majority, but it is a question whether either gender has anything left in the tank to discuss the matter to create 1 plan that creates less painful experiences for both genders.
@@Erad1288 you nailed it!
As a man I agree. Whatever happened to the idea of friendships turning into romantic relationships?? If a young man or boy doesn't know all this theory then it's natural of him to approach someone as a friend and then ask them out after getting to know them. So, no, not all men who are in the friend zone are trying to manipulate you. That's how men tend to think naturally, until a dating coach tells them to approach more directly. Try to apply it to yourself, how would you have gone about approaching a person you liked in highschool or elementary school? Most people would try to be friendly at first, it's not really manipulative.
@japjeetmehton9921 I think this whole shitty idea of the friendzone has got to die. It's stupid. I have had guys I've dated tell me that they see me more as a friend, I didn't take it to mean that I had been "friendzoned." It just meant that we weren't right for each other and that's okay. It's okay for people to change their minds, but its also okay for people to develop feelings as they get to know someone better, its natural! Friendzone bullshit tarnishes so many young men's ideas about the value of friendship with women. It is an idea borne out of only valuing women for sex and it needs to die.
i love the lectures but this style of video is where dr ks channel really shines. more like this pls!
Rejection is subjective and often tied to prior insecurities.
It's amazing that Anita has reached the point of personal growth whereas rejection doesn't project her value as a person for her, but that doesn't deny the feelings that another person might feel when denied a conversation etc.
She is in no way responsible for that at all - but at the same time you can't decide what rejection is and isn't as it's up to each individual person.
A man being nervous to start a conversation doesn't have to be that he wants to get in her pants, it might just be that he wants to be seen, to be interesting enough or be worth the time.
As a man, not being able to even entertain a conversation with a woman is painful enough. Sex is in a different galaxy, when the words coming out our mouths fall flat.
As a woman, I would say Anita's understanding of rejection is also not shared with most other women. But it's important to note that she is a demisexual, so that will affect how she views rejection.
@@brennam954 This is why when someone uses a word and defines am action differently than 99% of the population does, and once she is aware of that fact she still uses it her way, there's no point in me continuing the conversation. Imagine a person that defines "love" and "loving someone" entails literally owning the other person. You'd never want to be near such a person. Same concept here mostly.
@@O_Canada I mean, I can imagine the female group shitting on one of their own if she wasn't able to get a guy's phone number, but at the same time girl friend groups are much more tight nit. They're much more likely to shit on the guy for having refused one of them. I've never seen that with a guy group though.
I'm shocked that no one has pointed out that Anita is also coming from the perspective of being literally stalked and romance zoned by her friends for YEARS as shown by her first interview. She has to think of rejection this way because it's much harder to reject the hoards of people who like her otherwise
The lack of empathy around friend/fuck-zoning is so frustrating to me, because it seems like both sides can very clearly articulate how it feels from their side, not realising that the experience of the other side is fundamentally very similar. Person A has an expectation of what their connection with person B should result in, but person B doesn't want that, so person A feels hurt/disappointed/rejected. Neither person is entitled to anything from the other: the man is not entitled to the woman's affection/love/sex, and the woman is not entitled to the man's time/friendship.
Based on this conversation, I would disagree on the experience being similar because the "friendzoned" side is playing a game from the beginning to make the other side fall in love with them and is then disappointed when they lose the game/realize that all their investment didn't lead to the desired outcome. The "fuckzoned" side is in the meantime convinced they are building a genuine friendship here because the other side acts accordingly to that purpose and so they behave authentic and friendly the whole time, only to find out that the other side just didn't make their intentions clear and are now openly disappointed because they didn't fall for them. These seem to be 2 very different experiences of hope, trying your best and manipulating while getting rejected in the end vs. building and having trust while getting "betrayed" in the end. Sure, eventually both are disappointed in the other side but for very different reasons: The fuckzoned one because of the other side not being entirely genuine from the start as well as just giving up this friendship and the friendzoned one because of the other side being too genuine/friendly.
"an expectation of what their connection with person B should result in" weird way of putting it bro
Yeah, it really was somewhat disturbing to listen to her rant at 46:34 about "sleep with me or I dump you as a friend". She says "that's a horrible thing to do to someone" as if she's entitled to the guys friendship.
She doesn't seem to understand that, once you develop romantic feelings for someone, it can be excruciatingly difficult to just casually hang out with them without being in a romantic relationship.
She seems to misconstrue man not being able to hang out with her anymore with her with "oh, he was just using our friendship to get to sex".
@@maxweber5250 My understanding of the term "friendzoned" is that it refers to any situation where a man wants a relationship/sex from a woman, but the woman "only" wants to remain friends. I've never heard it used, or used it myself, to refer specifically to men manipulating women into sex.
If that is actually what the term "friendzoned" means and I've just been using it wrong my whole life, how can we refer to a situation that's essentially the opposite of the one you described, where a man believes they are building a genuine connection that's building towards something more? Maybe the nomenclature around all this has just evolved and I missed it?
@@evedotcom I'm curious to hear why? To expand a little, the way I see it is: if the man wants a relationship/sex from a woman, and spends time with them, doing things with them they wouldn't normally do, because they believe that's how they can build towards what they want, then they have an expectation of what that relationship will eventually lead to. Likewise, if a woman wants to be friends with a man, and spends time with them assuming that they're building towards a friendship, then the woman has an expectation of what that relationship will lead to.
Fun thing I’ve learned from experience is that even if my feelings are not mutual, so long as the others don’t feel uncomfortable about still maintaining friendships…sometimes that’s made the friendship waaaay better. Now I don’t need to worry about some feelings getting in the way of friendship.
The fact that she is the one who goes out of her way to approach men and if she’s never approached you that means don’t approach her is soooo contrary to the way the world is. Like Dr K said, her reality is “not the norm”
It is a pretty wild assumption from Anita that men who are her friends and then ask for sex/romantic interactions had those all along and where just hiding them instead i the possibility that the men may have developed those feelings DURING THE FRIENDSHIP.
Yeah, that's what disturbed me most about this conversation. I'm surprised Dr.K didn't react one bit to that. And especially that "sleep with me or I dump you as a friend" BS she ranted about at 46:34. A pretty toxic opinion if you ask me.
Shows complete lack of understanding of how emotions work.
She talks as if she's entitled to have a man's friendship no matter what, and if he chooses to end that friendship because he had developed romantic feelings, well, let's label him as "he was just my friend because he was hoping for sex"
Exactly. One could say that is being demisexual - being emotionally attracted to someone. Emotional attraction sort of requires emotional attachment and nurturance. I suppose skills can be developed to help demisexuals, but again. Where does one find these skills?
@@zorkan111 This is a take that assumes that that she is lying about her friends saying things such as "Or was I wasting my time" or the thing to that effect. That's not a toxic opinion, that's her perception of the situation based on what she experienced. She does not ever express any entitlement to men in her life to be her friends. What she expressed multiple times was asking people if they are interested, and they refused to commit, and then blindsiding her.
She also described telling people that she will let them *know* if she is interested in them, and some people still getting upset with her for not sharing her feelings.
What that is a description of, is one of a huge oversight of empathy and maturity on the part of the person asking Anita to reciprocate, when she has done all that she can do to let them know she is not interested before they decide to make these choices.
I am not sure where you are hearing entitlement "no matter what" to friendship in that.
I can understand why you might feel "he was just my friend to get sex" would be an overstatement, but in the context of telling people you are friends, and treating them as a friend, and asking them if they are interested in you, with those people refusing to admit it, only to wait *years* to tell her they were hoping she would accept them, how is this her fault?
In this situation she is guilty of what, exactly? Because I want you to really think about how you would feel if someone who you were not interested in, played your friend for years only to ask if you are gonna date them, and indicated that that is why they wanted to be your friend, not just because they liked you for you. Like really really think about that.
@@DadMusashi Yes, but then the point still stands that she generalizes her perception as the objective standard.
Also she repeatedly uses the clear formulation of "rejecting someone" NEVER of "being rejected".
The way how Anita keeps the perspective of the one who reject CONSISTENTLY during the interview is to me a pretty strong hint that she rarely or never has faced romantic rejection in her life.
@@TheCap319Your only a creep if she doesn’t find you remotely attractive lol nah just make a move the first few instances you start feeling attracted. It’s a lot easier to walk away with the rejection.
If you let it go on a women had only maybe 50-60% into you she will be worried about the friendship being ruined and won’t take that risk on dating.
Sooner the bandaid is pulled I think is the best chance and easiest outcome. Plus it shows you go after what you want.
I feel a lot of resentment coming from this person, who has probably had a lot of bad experiences with men, so it's probably understandable, but I still get a knot in my stomach listening to her.
Nobody gives that same empathy to men complaining about women. A lot of what she said was exaggerating, like the study about degrading a women in a video game? Tons of men have the opposite problem that they don’t degrade women but put them up on a pedestal.
@Mina Botieso putting women on a pedastel, especially if the woman doesn't want to be put there, is dehumanizing also. Saying this as someone who's prone to doing that, too; it can make it very uncomfortable for the other side and is not fair.
@@blaulin damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Never change, you lot. Never change.
@hillehai women who want to be put on a pedestal are weird, though lol. I don't think you should cater to them
@@hillehai and I personally deem myself logically consistent btw
When Dr K mentions that a lot of men are decent men the eye roll "if you say so" type expression Anita gave bugs me. I cannot tell if its because of her T or if she was emoting that she doesn't agree but isn't willing to argue the point.
Everytime I have seen some Anita content made in past 2 years it reeks with casual misandry.
At around 1:14:39 she asks how can you reject someone before knowing them. And I think the answer should have been, that rejecting someone immediately is rejecting the outer appearance and not the inner self. If someone knew you then rejected you, they rejected the true you. So it’s sort of like a defense mechanism.
Thank You for bringing the interviews back!! Combining real world examples/issues with the wisdom of Dr. K is good content.
I made an edit below, if you relate please read it.
I think a key part of not putting girls in the fuck zone is being aware that you’re romanticizing women. I used to do that, now I don’t. The problem is, when I stopped doing that I inadvertently killed off my feelings for romance entirely. I learned it’s not something I wanted, it’s something I did in the hope for love when all I want is to be able to be seen as a vulnerable man and accepted. Being romantic (when dating) was a performance with an intended outcome, not a genuine expression.
So killing off the part of me that romanticizes women has kind of killed off a lot of dating for me because now I see it as jumping through hoops as opposed to something I enjoy. I don’t know how to fix this, if I should, or if I’m just aromantic or something. I’m still trying to date, but it’s harder because I’m not interested in playing a traditional role. I don’t want to pay for dinners, or protect anyone, or any of that traditional gibberish. I want genuine expressions that I emotionally connect to, or nothing.
Edit 3/9
I learned that what I am is called “Gender Non-conforming.” I found out there’s a whole section of some dating apps full of people who feel like I do. If you relate, maybe check it out. I barely even read the google definition and instantly knew it’s how I’ve felt the whole damn time.
I feel you on this. When I learned about being more respectful and not sexualizing women, it killed any desire to approach women or feel okay viewing them in a sexual light.. I haven't found the solution either.
damn this hit differently
This is definitely for the best in the long run (woman here). You’re not focused on meeting a role that isn’t authentic to who you are. Now you can focus (if you want) on finding people who likewise aren’t interested in playing games, filling a function, and just want to be themselves. It’s a far better foundation for making real friendships, regardless of whether they also have a sexual or romantic aspect to them. I wish you well in figuring out who you are and what you are actually looking for. ❤
@@Dimitris_Half Not at all. Sex is incredible. I believe the term is aromantic (if that’s what’s actually happening) when someone doesn’t experience romance. Unfortunately, they’re not linked for everyone.
@@Sahdirah Thank you! 😁
Does someone have a name or can give me the doi of the study she talked about at the start of the video (around 5 minutes) I always struggle to find those
On the idea of fear of rejection, a lot could be tied to the fact that men are the ones who initiates in most times. usually to strangers. And when you see a stranger, looks is all you can go for. So essentially a no feels like "you dont look like a person worthy of my time" which can trigger all kinds of insecurities.
Another thing is that I found it wierd hw she seemed mad, or atleast upset, about guys asking how to be better with women. As if wanting someone you like to like you back is somehow a bad thing.
Yeah that part low-key frustrated me. She talked earlier about how male sexuality is unhealthily repressed, and then shamed and labeled guys as horny animals for expressing their sexuality by flirting with strangers
She seemed confused about men "wanting to know how to talk to women", I say this because she states that you just talk to them like you would any other person and seems to think this means that men don't see women as people. The problem here is that by just talking to them like you would to any of your guy friends you are not expressing any desire to be a potential mate. Then next thing you know the woman only considers the man as a friend and nothing more leading the man to feel hurt and rejected if he actually does try putting his feelings out there and it doesn't work. Communicating friendship is different than communicating courtship.
"What about your experience does not translate into empathy for men who are afraid of getting rejected?"
Yeah I wish he really pushed her for a direct answer to that specifically
most likely because she has experienced her entire life as a woman.
Bro she explains it pretty decently. She doesn’t determine her self worth on how other see or treat her. She knows that someone rejecting her must have nothing to do with her as a person bit everything with the person that rejected her.
@@Leonie-tz3tz
Because she doesn't need to develop a personality to attract men
Men have to be smart, kind, empathetic, confident, have social status, be financially stable, in order for woman to even consider them
Do you think Anita needs to be anything more than a good-looking woman to attract men?
@Ungabunga.44 OR she just has an internal sense of self confidence, like a healthy individual. You shouldn't judge your worth based on others sexual intrest in you, and just because you're rejected doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you. People have their own preferences. It's not arrogant or thinking you're perfect, it's the mentality everyone should cultivate
It's easy to get over rejection and be ''mature'' when you've actually been told ''yes'' at any point in life. If you've only gotten ''no''-s, you can't not internalize that.
..yeah woman should say "yes" to the guy with his tracktor on his fb pic who asks "Are you shy?" As second sentence.. yeah we really should really empatise with this kind of guys. 😅🥲
Creeeepyyyy.....
@@lisaart5301 Literally not what he's saying, lol.
@@lisaart5301 it’s hard making men complaining about dating seem more reasonable than women but you have accomplished it
@@minabotieso6944 is it tho?
Yes, this relates to the idea that the number 1 reason single people get into relationships is having prior experience. That you've explored this new facet of Life.
A facet the inexperience of can feel like a train that already left the station without you. But since the willingness to get there is the number 2 reason, you can catch up to it with that train instead.
All of this trouble could be avoided by understanding that there were reasons in traditional societies for gender roles, if women decide to have friendships with men they are not being courted by, they should understand that men have unmet desires that they are seeking to fulfil.
Having too much attention may lead to unhappiness, but having no attention guarantees unhappiness.
No empathy for women here.
I hope I can offer some perspective on the friendzone thing from a male perspective. I’m not saying these feelings or things are right but this is the truth I have come to see from my own experiences being friendzoned and other guys I know.
I often hear people say men and women can’t be platonic friends. I don’t think that’s true, however I think it is very difficult for men and women to be friends after romantic feelings develop. This can happen at any time, whether immediately or over the course of time.
I completely understand the feelings that Anita was saying here and how it could feel that way… I don’t think most guys are good at articulating what we feel when we are friendzoned, so a guy saying it was a “waste of time” may mean that, or it may mean that he is just hurt in that moment, or that in hindsight it feels that way right now, because selfishly you didn’t get the outcome you wanted.
This gets into the core of what I want to say. As guys, when we get rejected it feels like failure, period. Idk if this is right or wrong, but it is true for most guys. So continuing to hang around something or someone that constantly reminds you of that “failure” is very difficult. You feel hopeless and dejected seeing that person that you had hopes of something more with.
I need to detour here and say no doubt some guys are way too fickle about this kind of thing. If you’re heartbroken over a girl not reciprocating feelings when you haven’t known them very long then that’s on you. Especially if you don’t know them at all, because at that point you were just objectifying them.
On the flip side, if you two were truly friends and then over time you developed feelings for the other person (which like they said in the video, most guys latch on to any sort of emotional support) then there is a real pain there that has to be addressed.
I’ll end by saying this (once again this is the male perspective at least as far as I can see it). If me being around you, and spending time with you, and getting to be friends and closer to you is what caused me to become interested in you romantically, then at the very least I need some time away to process and just be apart from you because if we continue forward like nothing ever happened, it will either be very hard or impossible for me to move on. I wish we were strong enough to just say okay and immediately put any romantic feelings we had to rest, but it isn’t that easy unfortunately. Most guys need some time away to move on… and in a sense that friendship at least as it was before is dead. That’s not to say we don’t care about you, in fact that’s usually the opposite of the case. But it’s very hard for us to be around you with unrequited feelings.
If there was a true friendship there and he does care about you for who you are, then he’ll eventually come back around and you two can be friends again as long as neither of you were stupid and said things you didn’t mean when the rejection happened. But don’t think that in every case just because the guy needs some time away that all he saw you as was something to have sex with, because a lot of times that isn’t the case. (Sometimes it is though, and for that I am sorry)
It’s definitely an ego thing at least in part but given enough time we can get over it.
Edit: TLDR: just because a guy isn’t immediately interested in being friends after you friendzone him doesn’t always mean he was only after you for sex or trying to manipulate you.
This describes my friend’s situation perfectly. I wish you could tldr it or else it would probably be ignored by majority of people and it’s important that people see this instead of jumping to conclusions.
@@the1stmetalhead I don’t usually leave comments, what would be an effective tldr?
This is why I'm friends with women that are married or are lesbian it's much easier
Whenever I hear the friend-zone thing being brought up, my response is always saying that women have the right to say no, but men have the right to walk away. I kinda took issue with her talking about the "fuck-zone", which I thought was interesting because I had never heard of it before, because not all guys just want to fuck. Lots of guys, myself included, want a romantic, loving relationship and if that includes sex, then hey, that's great. Yeah, it sucks to discover that a friend wants something more from you, but it's the way it is. You can't just be "BFFs!!!" forever and it frustrates me when I hear about someone who thinks they can. Like, things happen, you can't control someone else's feelings. Idk, there's many different angles, perspectives, and concepts regarding that whole situation, it's really difficult for me to really think of what the best solution might be.
You made a great point that I honestly thought Dr. K would have brought up. Once those feelings develop what was had before is no longer, at least from what I've seen. So its extremely difficult for a guy to continue hanging around and being freinds with the girl when he has feelings and she doesn't. It's painful and that's why its sometimes "all or nothing" with guys. It's not like we don't like you, it's just that because of the way we're wired we just can't be around you in the same way without undergoing pain. The hardest part is that a lot of the time we don't just "choose" to develop romantic feelings. It just happens. And when it does it's almost like it's over in a sense.
Friendzone/Fuckzone nonsense. 😕
I used to think like Anita. Because it’s sad to lose a friend, when they have unrequited romantic feelings for you. It’s easy to feel angry. But falling for someone isn’t a bad thing to do! And if it’s unrequited, breaking off the friendship is probably healthy. Sure it’s sad, but it’s no one’s fault.
@@Dimitris_Half yes, obv if someone rejects you, don’t be an arsehole about it!
@@Dimitris_Half were any of them acting like they were entitled to it?
@@Dimitris_Half let me ask you this.. if 20 men and women lived in jungle as tribe and men share everything with tribe , like they hunt for the tribe and protect from outside tribes, arent they entitled to womens romance in their tribes ? which is the only thing they offer. they cant fight as good as you and lacking in other areas. isnt it rude if men provide their services freely but women dont provide theirs, withhold to gain leverage and benefits for themselves within the tribe? i mean logical thing is to separate them and they should fend for themselves. friendzone is the same logic. its a unfair exchange of services. tbh this applies to the country.
@@Dimitris_Half your generation confuses wanting something with being entitled to it. I want a million dollars, I'm not entitled to it. Wanting a relationship with someone is not the same as feeling entitled to having a relationship with someone. Words matter.
@@ShermanWilliamsVideo yes you are entitled to it.. unless you are being politically correct..its unequal exchange of services
if 20 men and women lived in jungle as tribe and men share everything with tribe , like they hunt for the tribe and protect from outside tribes, arent they entitled to womens romance in their tribes ? which is the only thing they offer. they cant fight as good as you and lacking in other areas. isnt it rude if men provide their services freely but women dont provide theirs, withhold to gain leverage and benefits for themselves within the tribe? i mean logical thing is to separate them and they should fend for themselves. friendzone is the same logic. its a unfair exchange of services. tbh this applies to the country. women want mens attention and men want to smash. friendzone gives them what they want but withhold what you want.
Something that's really interesting psychologically is how little her tics are happening throughout this conversation. I would assume its a sign of how passionate and engaging the conversation was.
What you said about taking big bites of burgers makes no sense. Its basically like saying that exercising does not alter your physical appearance. Taking big bites(especially in early years of life) does change your facial structure just as mouth breathing changes your facial structure. What we do with our bodies matters and affects the development of your bodies.
Even how much and the way we sit during the day changes our physical appearance.
What Sweet Anita said about a lot of men not having basic friendship skills is painfully true. My husband and I were talking about this and he admitted that his relationships with his male friends are very surface level with very little emotional support. The things me and my female friends are willing to share would be seen as "gay" with his friends, when it's just basic support.
Its an extremely tough hill to climb over. It takes me pretty much at least a year of being friends with a male to be able to delve into deeper topics such as mental health. Thanks for your perspective!
I feel SO insanely lucky to have more than one close male friend that I feel relatively comfortable talking about emotional/sensitive issues with. Because I see and hear so much of this.
@@baaqu69 You dont talk to women often, do you?
@@xB0505 …Here comes the shaming……..
@@k9blazesensation People should be shamed for being misogynists tho. If my comment offended you it probably hit the mark
"The stigma of female sexuality" part resonated with me. There's plenty more where that came from, sadly, and oftentimes comes directly from our mothers, aunts, sisters, friends. Unfortunately, we women also keep that stigma going
facts. internalized misogyny is VERY much a thing. Patriarchal norms are perpetuated by both genders. It's perpetuated by both genders and everyone suffers under it.
it's fake actually. you don't live in saudi arabia, in the west for example if you are a woman owning sex toys is considered empowering, while if a man owns them for himself it is considered a loser.
Stigmas & judgements are all around, on the women AND on men. Reality is complex. ^^
As there is stigma & judgments on women having a lof of sex ("sl*ts"), there is also a lot of stigma on men having very little sex ("rejects", losers, non-voluntary "inc*ls").
Men can also be shunned as "sl*ts", and women can also be shunned as "rejects".
If there is confusion ^^: I'm talking stereotypes and generalizations; obviously, there always are numerous exceptions to the rule.
@@manumaster1990So two wrongs make a right to you? Men being shamed for owning sex toys AND women being shamed for sleeping with many people are both true phenomenon. That's why in progressives spaces ppl cheer women on for being open about their sexual needs, bc it's not historically accepted for women to admit that they have libido too or even to be enthusiastic about sex. Ppl shame men for being sexless and that's not okay either.
@@manumaster1990 what? Do u live around any Christians. There is alot of stigma of female sexuality in the Christian community and most people r Christian or has a lot of Christian culture in them
This was one of my favorite talks y’all have put on this channel. Anita is so kind and knowledgeable, and Dr. K just reciprocates and builds on that, making for such a great dynamic and creating insightful discussion.
@UngaBunga? looks like you should go watch again
@Ungabunga.44she was kind. She didn't even say all men, so if you feel attacked the shoe must fit
People use the term friend too loosely.
I feel like the men she is talking about are the 3% of weirdos in her chat and they do not represent the average bloke on the street trying to be a decent guy. The assumptions she is making are partly just insulting. This Interview left me somewhat hopeless.
Probably why she doesn't fear the average guy on the street just as much. A lot of my fears of men went away when I left the idea of gaming college behind as well as leaving a very archaic church. But I still feel the fear now and then when I'm in certain environments. But most of the time I don't feel any creepy guys leering at me with hidden intentions. It's very much where you go
I think I know what is the problem with the her understanding. When you have negative outlook on yourself and it's hard then to ask someone out. Every NO you get is the confirmation of what you think of yourself. That's why it hurts so much and you feel rejected, unattractive, you think you will not find anyone ever. Probably she has healthy self-image and combined with hi maturity is why it's bothering her less than men.
My honest reaction to her is she is overly confident in herself, arrogant and wrong with men's experiences. She keeps speaking about poor woman and I agree with a lot of her points. However then can't accept that men are lost, insecure and need/want a connection but aren't sure how to express it in a healthy way . Also, in general you never know how a woman will react so for men it is a guessing game where like she pointed out aren't socialized in culture or in men groups how to express ourselves. Then she says we are horrible creaps because we are trying to figure it out.
She is insufferable in how right she thinks she is all the time.
Am I alone in thinking that there is alot of bitterness and anti man vibe coming from Anita throughout almost the entire conversation? If you were to flip it and you had a guy who was venting in such a way about women he would most definately be labeled a incel or something along those lines.
Utterly fascinating conversation. Thanks for having Anita on! 👍👍👍
Really happy to see another interview. I feel like there are so many good and varied lessons to learn from these, more so than the one off solo topic videos.
I just want to speak on Anita's thoughts on a guy across the room working up the courage to talk to her. The way she explains it, it just sounds so blissfully emotionally straight forward. For me at least pretty women elicit a strong feeling of apprehension in me that I have a psychologically have a need to overcome. To then approach a woman despite the fear elicits a feeling of triumph over my internal state. It's almost a form of therapy to work through deep feelings of inadequacy in the presence of women. And to that extent it is not fair to treat women as therapeutic objects to overcome my deep-seeded personal issues.
He was pivoting and trying to tell her she is wrong about her biology argument in the nicest way possible. It sucks she doesn't want to face reality because her audience are jerks to her.
Huh?
@@rulingstone123 I second that; What argument?
I’ve been dating women for 3 years now. I don’t think Anita understands what it’s like being constantly rejected by women. Just like on a daily basis. For incomprehensible reasons or no reason at all. Having had a wonderful date where you seemingly have everything in common. Having to summon the energy and enthusiasm to keep trying over and over because so few femmes wanna make the first move. I mean my first gf dumped me because I once wore perfume she was allergic to. I got rejected a few times when I was dating guys but it’s like 10000x more frequent and intense with girls!!!!
That hasn’t been my situation with dating women in the least. Every woman I dated will continue to hold on long after the relationship is long dead. Maybe your girlfriends just weren’t very into you
@@vortexvibes5944 niice tryy
I'm so glad to have the sapphic experience represented here because it often devolves into boys vs girls and it's really excluding.
What are "incomprehensible reasons?" or "no reason at all?" Who are you to judge what is "incomprehensible" or not? Sometimes, the chemistry isn't there or the vibe is off. YOU may think you've had a wonderful date, but the other person did not, for whatever reason.
I remember seeing a dating show years ago and the guy was monopolising conversation.
The couple are interviewed separately during the date:
Man: This is a great date, we're getting along really well.
Woman: This is awful, he hasn't asked me anything about myself.
As for being dumped by your girlfriend for wearing a perfume that made her allergic........... it's probably NOT about the perfume.
@@rejectionisprotection4448 'Incomprehensible' implies she can't understand why.
How tf ppl giving full fledged opinions on this while the video got posted like 40 mins ago 😅
Ppl are so quick to divide themselves into groups and echo chambers
Omg the part about the friendzone where Anita says men think she is coming onto them just because she is doing baseline friend things was mindblowing. Made me realize I used to think that too of some of my female friends too (and I am gay).
that says a lot about how men are treated and conditioned i think! even if im wrong, thank you very much!
Yes I have learnt to not be so nice because it often gets mistaken for me hitting on them.
I have the reverse happen because I am an average looking woman, I will be friendly to guys I meet and they will deliberately blank me because they think I'm trying to crack onto them! Just because I'm being friendly! There really is a massive gap in our society regarding reading social cues and I think it would be awesome if people did more to educate themselves and each other, it would probably help a lot of neurodivergent folks to whom these cues don't come naturally, too!
How well did people know her when she was still worried about her nose? She hated her nose but did anyone who knew her actually hate her nose? Where did the trauma come from if rejection can't be imagined, or from someone you don't know?
58:55 "We don't speak different languages". She's contradicting herself here. Earlier in the conversation, she talked about how women talk about emotions a lot more. Obviously, men and women communicate differently. Not just men and women. You talk differently to your grandmother, differently to your coworker, differently to your boss. Obviously, there are different styles of communication used in different circumstances. You don't go on a date and talk to your date as you would talk to your boss. And you don't go into a business meeting talking the same way you talked to the other person on a date the night before.
That's what is meant by the question "how do I talk to women?". And I don't see why she's trying to portray it in a negative light when someone attempts to figure out how to actually communicate with another person in a different way.
Yay, thank you for doing another interview! More of these please!
I think a key misunderstanding here is that these feelings aren’t always there when you first meet. I have met girls before that I was totally platonic with and became friends. Then as I got to know them a bit better, I started to appreciate them more and developed romantic feelings. There was no ulterior motive there and I wasn’t hiding my feelings because I legitimately wasn’t interested in them at first. It was only over time that I started to think about them in that way. I think in this type of situation it’s best to acknowledge those feelings and have a conversation with your friend about it as soon as possible
I think the experience that Anita talks of is different from that. To speak on my own experience, I've had people be genuine friends with me and then express interest in me and it be okay even though I didn't reciprocate, but I've also had men who make it clear that they weren't friends with me because they actually enjoyed my company. They just acted like my friend (at least in the latter half of the friendship) because they thought if they do X Y and Z then it will end in a relationship or sex. It's very clear the difference once you experience both. It's very different when someone stops being friends with you because they find no value in you once they find out they'll never get sex from you versus vocalizing that they need to pull back from the friendship in order to manage their romantic feelings. I have my own experience being "friendzoned" and we just had to talk about it and I had to pull back to set boundaries so that we can still be friends, because I still wanted to be his friend and wanted him to be in my life. Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I worded that well.
The bridging the gap and jail example is excessive. At jail I know I'm around a bunch of people that don't care about breaking laws. As a COMPLETELY STRAIGHT man, I've been to LGBT+ bars and spaces with friends and had other men show attraction to me or attempt to buy me drinks. It's awkward at times but overall not that bad. If respectful, it's even oddly flattering despite the COMPLETE lack of attraction. I imagine it happening in jail would be MUCH WORSE. Also in that example I think many men are more fearful of the attack on their traditional masculinity then the sense of general unwanted attention itself.
I think the fear rejection also has to do with the fact that approaching women especially when we are young is basically putting our self in a state of emotional voulnerability we arent put into before in our life. Having to suddenly interface with the world in a way that you have been told not to ( emotionally ) is really hard. We are told that we should supress emotion and we are also told that the one person you can emotionally be open with is your romantic partner. It creates a no win situation where if you want a romantic partner you have to open up emotionally but if you do and that gets rejected you are devistated because finally you opened up to someone and you got hurt. It’s absolutely not fair to blame women for this. We need to stop raising children in a way that stunts their ability to engage emotionally with the world.
this ^^^^^ omg this comment, thank you. Exactly. What you're describing are patriarchal norms and it's literally a case of emotional arrested development for boys and men. Like that is so fucked up we just gaslight boys and men into just not having emotions which is not how that works. It's a form of emotional and psychological detachment from their own selves. I don't understand why "emotion" is even a charged or bad word in the first place, like it's literally part of the human condition. There's nothing inherently bad or good about emotions, they just are.
You didn’t miss man.
I also feel like there's one thing I need to point out: it's 100% true that there's little point in being afraid of the rejection of somebody you don't actually know because what you see is only the way they look.
But it's also worth mentioning that a person's appearance is the first thing we see and it's not so unreasonable to want to talk to somebody we like the look of. Even if they belong to a gender we aren't attracted to, we may notice something that strikes us which makes the person look interesting enough to want to know them. If I, as a straight man, go out and see a guy in an interesting outfit or with a tattoo of something I like, I may want to talk to him about his ink or clothes. The point is, while it's true that it may feel bad to only be approached because of the way you look because somebody is attracted to you, appearance is usually the first thing that catches our eye (literally), so I don't think anyone can be blamed for it. Of course, I'm not naive or obtuse enough to pretend a man approaching a woman he likes is probably not doing that out of lust, but it's entirely possible that a friendship may develop out of it. There are women I find attractive who I've become good friends with and I would never date for several reasons, I just don't think it's so bad to think "she's attractive, I should wouldn't mind dating her" at some point
I've been REALLY HOPING you'd do these interviews again cause it's how I've found your channel and it's always really insightful. Thanks so much for reaching out to a creator to speak on this! 🖤🦇
Really awesome discussion. Anita has a way of explaining things. She put a couple of things into a new perspective for me, so my understanding has deepened a bit, and expanded to other things that pertain or relate. She is really quite remarkable ; her experiences have not crippled her, they seem to have fortified her.
I find these videos with Sweet Anita to be the most interesting on the channel. You have two people with vast amounts of knowledge and information from two different perspectives that ask questions and give productive, well-articulated, and incredibly informative responses. This is the kind of civilized, productive discourse that is missing from society, and watching these actually makes me feel like some progress is being made to at least try to get viewers to understand the major problems in our society and give them some food for thought for coming up with solutions.
I think what Anita said about rejection and the guy not knowing her and only desiring her on physical levels is right in a way. At the same time, I think it's a little off.
It's not necessarily about being rejected as a person, for who you are, but about the chance of getting to know that person being rejected for reasons outside of one's understanding or grasp. For someone with rewarding friendships and a healthy social life, this would usually be fine *however* because many guys are often lonely or undersocialised being denied the chance to even get to know someone is saddening and can contribute to a kind of learned helplessness.
It really strikes me as a non-intentional vicious circle :/
It's also how things work? So many chances, whether it's a job or friendships or relationships, is based on how you initially come across and once you've got a foot in the door then you can prove yourself as a person. I think her feeling weird about a guy approaching her because they find her attractive is something that's unhealthy.
@@iRiDiKi I don't think it's unhealthy. You can not like it but I think it's just what it is.
@@iRiDiKiit’s a given that men being the pursuer is how things work even outside of dating. She plays dumb in the video to pretend like that isn’t the cade
I recently found out she's demisexual, so it actually makes a lot of sense in a way. If you didn't know, demisexuality is when a person doesn't feel sexual attraction until they have a deep connection with someone. She doesn't feel attracted to someone that she just met because she has no connection to them.
My only real problem there, is it kinda feels like she struggles to understand how much her experience is different from 'the norm', for lack of a better term. Like, obviously she doesn't know what it's like to want to be with someone she doesn't know, but she doesn't seem to care that she doesn't know what that feels like.
Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it sounds like she decided her view was 'correct', and anyone who doesn't see things the same way doesn't deserve sympathy.
I'd like to see more interviews with her, to maybe clear up some confusion.
its kind of terrifying, though. we live in a world where you’re supposed to have seggs on date three. i would literally never date a guy who asked me out when i barely knew him as a modest woman because i would either have to give in early or be humiliated for “leading him on.”
Honestly, this video and these perspectives have been so enlightening. Thank you both for the great talk!
I find Anita quite insuferable to listen to, even tho I really like how passionate and eloquent she is, she always gets to totalitarian and closed arguments and she seems to think her conclusions are the rule, she tries to not leave any open way for a healthy discussion other than straight confrontation, and if anyone in her chat dares to think different she always put herslf on a pedestal and her personal expiriences as the only truth to disregard and invalidate any "wrong thinking"( kind of sociopathy ), I stop following her when I saw her doing this repeatedly in many streams, no trying to be negative, I just can't help being just honest.
i think she'd be well served talking to someone more argumentative about this, dr k is a great listner but i dont think he challenges her opinions nearly enough. i cannot understand how she cant see how much rejection sucks as a dude.