this week, i had what i thought was one of the better game ideas of mine. i lost sleep thinking about this idea; i was so excited. then i started prototyping yesterday, and within an hour, i realized it wasn't going to be fun at all :/
Keep in mind that how you execute an idea is far more important than how good said idea is. I wouldn't abandon the idea with a little bit of prototyping just yet. It might just be that you focus too much on the wrong part of your idea. Try shifting the focus around a bit, if it still doesn't work, only let it go then.
Found this CZcams channel from your podcast, I’m starting to delve into game development after obtaining a degree in computer science and your podcasts have inspired me.
Very good video, appreciate it a lot. I like the MDA framework I can immediately see typical rpg Stat diagrams in my head for each game using that system. Quantifing fun is a hugely tough challenge. The super basic, low level game definition in my opinion is based around you have a goal, an obstacle and an ability which if used right let's you overcome the obstacle to reach the goal. But in that definition lacks in placing fun and as a professional developer (in a team, not primarily a designer myself) I struggle to find the fun in games I worked on. The part about loosing objectivity resonates very well with me.
Here is a summary of the key points from the video: 00:22 The video discusses the challenge of defining and measuring "fun" in game design, as fun is subjective and can diminish over time for the developer. 01:04 The MDA (Mechanics, Dynamics, Aesthetics) framework is introduced, which outlines 8 different categories of fun in games: sensation, fellowship, challenge, fantasy, narrative, discovery, expression, and submission. 02:23 The video acknowledges that games can also evoke negative emotions like sadness, fear, and frustration, but these can contribute to the overall fun and memorability of the experience. 03:43 Examples are given of how popular games like Ocarina of Time, Celeste, Hollow Knight, and Stardew Valley utilize different combinations of the 8 fun categories. 04:22 The video emphasizes the importance of iterative testing and tweaking to identify and remove "unfun" elements, as what seems fun on paper may not translate to the actual gameplay experience. 06:03 The video recommends seeking feedback from a diverse set of playtesters, not just other game developers, to get more objective and player-centric insights. 07:04 The video concludes with a small tip to make games more fun by including plenty of breakable elements for players to interact with.
I am leaving a comment because I enjoyed this video. I normally do not comment on youtube, but I just wanted to say that I really respect what you do. There's been more than once I have considered quitting my day job (as a Game Designer), which I actually love, to pursue the indie route, so kudos for having the guts to do it and keep it up for 2+ years now. I've been following you guys since the very beginning and I think there's an important question that you haven't been asked enough recently - WHAT ABOUT VEIL OF MAIA?!?
The axiom about removing all the unfun things and being left with fun things is dead on. As blossoming designers lots of folks want to throw tons of cool things they've thought about into their work, and heck, lots of giant studios do the same, but editing your plan down to just the best bits that are always enjoyable is going to get you the best bang for your buck :)
My first game is very flawed and definitely niche, but I found out the hard way, that it matters where you get the feedback. Because my game shares elements with JRPGs I thought it would be good idea to ask from those who play a lot of JRPGs. It turned out they actually often didn’t even really know how to play, because it wasn’t what they were expecting. Getting feedback from retrogamers / older gamers was very helpful, because they understood what I was trying to do. They could help me to do that, but better.
I came in here to disable notifications from you only to find an amazing video. Guess you're the only CZcamsr that I'll be keeping notifications on for 😂
Something that pretty consistent across all games I have found fun is that I get some sort of satisfaction out of it. Probably too vague and maybe it's not that helpful but maybe it can be a different "lens" to look at things.
I was going to make a point about other games that don't fall into this, but talked myself into a corner while doing so. I think the thing about the slow estus chug is a bit invalid as an unfun point. Its unfun to die from being too late with an estus, but dealing with the challenge of the mechanic itself can be considered fun. I wouldn't say its fun to die in Project Zomboid because you ate some slightly burnt meat. But dealing with the challenge of having to make a good decision to not eat burnt meat because you know it might kill you is fun? PZ again, searching through a whole warehouse to find a sledge hammer and not finding one isn't exactly fun, but if I found one every time, it'd get a lil dull. I'm personally working on a survival game based on The Road by Cormac McCarthy which will probably end up having many elements in this same style, I struggle to think about the fun. The challenge is obviously part of it, and the feelings of overcoming harsh circumstances and difficult trials are obviously fun to a certain extent but I guess as it doesn't have combat, I struggle to see how it'll fit into these architypal fun categories.
I tend to have the opposite feel when I accomplish something challenging. If it takes too long or there's some "gimmick" to the challenge, I tend to end up hating it when I complete it, especially if it was required to move forward. I guess that might be why I have trouble figuring out what is fun... or how to understand programming.
Step 1: MDA framework. Step 2: Make stuff breakable!!! Oh God, OH YES! Already 20 years ago I thought of breakable stuff. I mean in videogames of course.
There's a channel I've watched Games over Coffee Consulting. The host playtests games to give feedback for free, and you can opt in or out of him making a video to share with his audience to help other designers. Sadly he now only critiques narrative, BUT he has a discord where you can still post your game and ask members to playtest it for feedback. I haven't used it, nor do I know how populated this server is, so I'm sharing it in good faith alone.
I haven't seen you working out in any of your 'day-in-the-life'-type vids, and sure enough you're not a muscular guy overall. And yet, you have such a thick, strong neck. What gives? Do you train your neck, or are you just built this way?
this week, i had what i thought was one of the better game ideas of mine. i lost sleep thinking about this idea; i was so excited. then i started prototyping yesterday, and within an hour, i realized it wasn't going to be fun at all :/
Keep in mind that how you execute an idea is far more important than how good said idea is.
I wouldn't abandon the idea with a little bit of prototyping just yet. It might just be that you focus too much on the wrong part of your idea. Try shifting the focus around a bit, if it still doesn't work, only let it go then.
Found this CZcams channel from your podcast, I’m starting to delve into game development after obtaining a degree in computer science and your podcasts have inspired me.
Very good video, appreciate it a lot. I like the MDA framework I can immediately see typical rpg Stat diagrams in my head for each game using that system.
Quantifing fun is a hugely tough challenge. The super basic, low level game definition in my opinion is based around you have a goal, an obstacle and an ability which if used right let's you overcome the obstacle to reach the goal. But in that definition lacks in placing fun and as a professional developer (in a team, not primarily a designer myself) I struggle to find the fun in games I worked on. The part about loosing objectivity resonates very well with me.
Here is a summary of the key points from the video:
00:22 The video discusses the challenge of defining and measuring "fun" in game design, as fun is subjective and can diminish over time for the developer.
01:04 The MDA (Mechanics, Dynamics, Aesthetics) framework is introduced, which outlines 8 different categories of fun in games: sensation, fellowship, challenge, fantasy, narrative, discovery, expression, and submission.
02:23 The video acknowledges that games can also evoke negative emotions like sadness, fear, and frustration, but these can contribute to the overall fun and memorability of the experience.
03:43 Examples are given of how popular games like Ocarina of Time, Celeste, Hollow Knight, and Stardew Valley utilize different combinations of the 8 fun categories.
04:22 The video emphasizes the importance of iterative testing and tweaking to identify and remove "unfun" elements, as what seems fun on paper may not translate to the actual gameplay experience.
06:03 The video recommends seeking feedback from a diverse set of playtesters, not just other game developers, to get more objective and player-centric insights.
07:04 The video concludes with a small tip to make games more fun by including plenty of breakable elements for players to interact with.
Thank you
I am leaving a comment because I enjoyed this video.
I normally do not comment on youtube, but I just wanted to say that I really respect what you do.
There's been more than once I have considered quitting my day job (as a Game Designer), which I actually love, to pursue the indie route, so kudos for having the guts to do it and keep it up for 2+ years now. I've been following you guys since the very beginning and I think there's an important question that you haven't been asked enough recently - WHAT ABOUT VEIL OF MAIA?!?
The axiom about removing all the unfun things and being left with fun things is dead on. As blossoming designers lots of folks want to throw tons of cool things they've thought about into their work, and heck, lots of giant studios do the same, but editing your plan down to just the best bits that are always enjoyable is going to get you the best bang for your buck :)
My first game is very flawed and definitely niche, but I found out the hard way, that it matters where you get the feedback.
Because my game shares elements with JRPGs I thought it would be good idea to ask from those who play a lot of JRPGs. It turned out they actually often didn’t even really know how to play, because it wasn’t what they were expecting.
Getting feedback from retrogamers / older gamers was very helpful, because they understood what I was trying to do. They could help me to do that, but better.
Love your PodCast! I always listen to it when I'm on the road! :D Greetings from
I came in here to disable notifications from you only to find an amazing video. Guess you're the only CZcamsr that I'll be keeping notifications on for 😂
This sounds more like 8 ways to engage players instead, fun does come from it but fun is hard to pin down😅
Something that pretty consistent across all games I have found fun is that I get some sort of satisfaction out of it.
Probably too vague and maybe it's not that helpful but maybe it can be a different "lens" to look at things.
I was going to make a point about other games that don't fall into this, but talked myself into a corner while doing so. I think the thing about the slow estus chug is a bit invalid as an unfun point. Its unfun to die from being too late with an estus, but dealing with the challenge of the mechanic itself can be considered fun. I wouldn't say its fun to die in Project Zomboid because you ate some slightly burnt meat. But dealing with the challenge of having to make a good decision to not eat burnt meat because you know it might kill you is fun? PZ again, searching through a whole warehouse to find a sledge hammer and not finding one isn't exactly fun, but if I found one every time, it'd get a lil dull.
I'm personally working on a survival game based on The Road by Cormac McCarthy which will probably end up having many elements in this same style, I struggle to think about the fun. The challenge is obviously part of it, and the feelings of overcoming harsh circumstances and difficult trials are obviously fun to a certain extent but I guess as it doesn't have combat, I struggle to see how it'll fit into these architypal fun categories.
Great video as always my dude
I tend to have the opposite feel when I accomplish something challenging.
If it takes too long or there's some "gimmick" to the challenge, I tend to end up hating it when I complete it, especially if it was required to move forward.
I guess that might be why I have trouble figuring out what is fun... or how to understand programming.
3:00
I remember playing Terraria's calamity mod on infernum difficulty, one of the bosses D.O.G took me 361 attempts to beat...
The designer of Pac-Man is Tōru Iwatani, not Scott Rogers.
Step 1: MDA framework.
Step 2: Make stuff breakable!!!
Oh God, OH YES!
Already 20 years ago I thought of breakable stuff. I mean in videogames of course.
What a great video!!
If you have negativ emotions you make positiv emotions more special.
What are some good ways to get play testers? .. and feedback? Without becoming a content creator?
There's a channel I've watched Games over Coffee Consulting. The host playtests games to give feedback for free, and you can opt in or out of him making a video to share with his audience to help other designers.
Sadly he now only critiques narrative, BUT he has a discord where you can still post your game and ask members to playtest it for feedback. I haven't used it, nor do I know how populated this server is, so I'm sharing it in good faith alone.
Awesome video
Guys I don't think he reads comments
I haven't seen you working out in any of your 'day-in-the-life'-type vids, and sure enough you're not a muscular guy overall. And yet, you have such a thick, strong neck. What gives? Do you train your neck, or are you just built this way?
As a bald man, I find your neglect of your follicular agency deplorable. Good video tho. 😁
lol
First