Why You're Wrong About Boardwalk Empire
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- čas přidán 24. 05. 2024
- Boardwalk Empire is a period gangster drama which features fictional characters like Nucky Thompson, and also real ones such as Arnold Rothstein, Al Capone and Charlie Luciano. Touted as the next big crime show after The Sopranos, for many people, Boardwalk Empire failed to live up to the hype.
Today I wanted to discuss the show, and why I felt the series was a dissapointment.
0:00 (My thoughts on Boardwalk Empire)
2:21 (The hype problem)
4:22 (The legacy problem)
5:08 (The boringness problem)
7:51 (The ambition problem)
8:31 (The Nucky Thompson problem)
11:10 (The final season problem)
16:33 (Conclusion) - Krátké a kreslené filmy
Stephen Graham as Capone was a highlight of this show. Dude can act.
Getting a Brit to play an Italian is a stupid idea. At least they got a Brit who can fucking act.
He was too small. That took me out of it too much. Other than that, he played the role fairly well.
@@jasonbodine6033 : Agree about him being too small
If Capone was a English midget he was spot on
I almost shit when I saw him in an interview and he had a British accent. This was after seeing him in several different things with American Brooklynese accents.
I would describe season one as VERY good. Season 2 and 3 were outstanding. Season 4 I’d say was just good and season 5 was of course poor but not because they did a bad job but because it was rushed as HBO forced them to wrap it up.
Season 5 just depressed me.
Why does HBO give birth to so many classics, only to prematurely kill them off too soon?
@@DSPHistoricalSocietyyet the Crown should of stopped at season 4. The rest is just still too soon. Still too raw. Wasn't impressed with season 5. Doubt I'll watch season 6. Too soon.
@@DSPHistoricalSociety
Rising production cost.
@@DSPHistoricalSocietytoo soon? Five seasons is more than enough . Just got to end it right
Arnold Rothstein in Boardwalk was one of the best characters I've ever watched in any show - it was absolutely superb and I was crushed when they killed him offscreen in timeskip :(
The timeskip was necessary because of one important historical bit the show, perhaps unintentionally, made ahistorical: Capone and Lucky/Lansky weren't contemporaries in terms of power.
Capone was boss of Chicago by 1925. Lucky and Lansky were still underlings to Joe Masseria at the time. They wouldn't even kill Masseria until 1930, and Maranzano until 1931, and by the point of Maranzano's death, Capone was already convicted of tax evasion and would be sent to Alcatraz in 1932.
Capone casually interacting with Lansky and Luciano was incredibly ahistorical. Not only was Capone not in NYC in any significant way, but a boss like him wouldn't be converting with underling hoods like Lansky and Luciano, but because those three were the biggest historical names on the show, the creators felt it necessary to make them comparable in prominence (and location). Simply put, the constraints of history would make it impossible for Capone to be gladhanding with Lucky and Lanksy. It's the mafia equivalent of the President of the United States casually hanging out with a Congressional intern. Further, because of the 7 year time skip between seasons 4 and 5, we miss all of the significant shit that Capone did while boss in Chicago (such as his war with Hymie Weiss, Bugs Moran, Joe Aiello, and the St. Valentine's Day massacre), and it makes it seem as though Lansky and Luciano were of similar power and prominence by 1931 (when in fact, they had to kill Joe the Boss and Salvator Maranzano to get that prominence, and Capone would be convicted later that year and shipped to Alcatraz in 1932).
The reality is that Chicago was a much more interesting mafia hotspot than NYC in the 1920s, but because they introduced Lucky and Lansky so early, having them meandering for 5+ years between 1925 (when they were nobodies) until they kill Joe the Boss and Maranzano would've been boring in comparison to Capone running Chicago. So while I'm sure the time skip was mostly for cost (they knew they had to wrap up everything by season 5), it did allow them to avoid a narrative hole that Luciano and Lansky would've been left in because nothing really interesting (at least compared to what was happening in Chicago, and aside from Lucky's kidnapping in 1929 and Rothstein's murder in 1928) happened during that period of time.
Michael Stuhlbarg was flawless as "The Brain" Arnold Rothstein. One of the best.
@@giovannifitzpatrick1987 Your history sounds a little flawed. Al Capone started his career in the underworld in NYC. Specifically in the 5 points gang in lower Manhattan. (Can't say he had nothing to do with Ny) All these fellas knew who each other were...and Capone was never inducted in Cosa Nostra, just highly respected as the "boss" of the Chicago outfit and recognized by the commission once Charlie organized it... but he didn't have rank over Charlie. He still had ties to NY, maybe he didn't go there himself but don't mistake he forgot his roots and others who were coming up in the rackets after he left. I think it was historically accurate that Al, Johnny Torrio, Charlie, Frankie Uale... knew of and probably did business at some point with each other. Just my opinion.
I loved his quote about a man being able to sit in a room by himself. That rocked me for some reason.
@@edgewiseCL Absolutely. "Do nothing" when there is no play quote was also incredible. Same with "Flip a coin, when it's in air you'll know your choice" and many more - this show was underrated af
Dat animal Nucky Thompson
I think Animal Blundetto did a great job with this Nucky Thompson character. My favorite scene of his is when he kills that kid Roland in cold blood without any provocation whatsoever
Just like how he murdered that kid Billy.
@@paulraines9635 It's sad when they go young like that
@@OrthodoxHC When they GO?!
"Your brother.... Whatever happened there"
JESUS CHRIST CARMINE
@@paulraines9635what ever happened there
I loved this show, the last season was a bit rushed but its probably an 8/10 or 9/10 overall. The final scene was great!
A bit rushed? I’d say that assessment is rather generous. They leap frogged entire story arcs. So disappointing
Yeah it was problematic
I was almost mad because I was really into the show. I remember being like "wtf is happening?" it was like they threw the whole story in the trash. They straight up just killed everyone in some random way like "fuck it this is over." I think the only scene I liked was the scene where Luciano basically dissects his crew but even then, I was like "how and why is this even happening?" like why was Meyer and Luciano so pissed and why was Nucky suddenly so weak it was like not even a fight or barely a discussion just a "ha! we got ya!". Also, Van Alden was built up for the whole show just to get smoked over some dumb shit. It was like they made up a "buddy cop" story on the spot for him and Eli Thompson like Eli is banging his wife out of nowhere? wtf?
I loved this show as well. It is a shame it ended the way it did, but this show was one of my all time favorites.
(I still don't know what happened to Paz De La Vega though. Weinstein?
Not perfect but still a good watch for any fans of crime dramas
The fight between Eli and the agent is the best most enjoyable and realistic fight scene ever filmed. Brutal!
You really understand the basis of Eli's savagery in the fight too, after being goaded with that final threat to his son's freedom.
@@adamweisshaup yeah that's the key you're right. The acting is superb.
Season four is filled with so many great action scenes and brutal deaths. Dunn stabbing the cuckold to death, the aforementioned Knox vs Eli, Meyer at the card table, and Van Alden going postal on his old co-workers. Not to mention Frank, or a certain character who is arguably one of the greatest in tv ever for me personally. Season 4 is my personal favorite, I have to say.
@@adamweisshaupAnd his son's butt.
Dan Dority and Captain Turner in Deadwood was pretty gruesome too.
Stephen Graham as Al Capone is such a crazy casting choice but I think he pulled it off perfectly, apart from that one scene in the woods when he shouts and his scouse accent comes through for a split second😂
I think for me an issue was while I liked Nucky, he felt more like a character other characters were meant to interact with as opposed to his own man. Still, not bad for a breadstick in a bowtie.
This show was phenomenal. Went downhill a bit in season 4 and season 5 was poor but still secures a spot as one of my all-time favorites
It didn’t go downhill in season 4 and Season 5 was rich
@@firestriker3580season 5 is terrible and it shows. Season 4 is alot better than people give it credit for. Season 1 and 2 are amazing, but had very huge behind the scenes issues with the actors.
@@firestriker3580were you kidding? season 5 was forced to be rushed and finished… it’s not good at all
@@firestriker3580”season 5 was rich” 😂😂😂 don’t comment things under the influence
Yes, I see what you’re saying regarding Nucky. During the first season, my mind kept telling me that Nucky was being played by Don Knotts.
yo this killed me
I loved boardwalk empire. Every single character felt right and was well acted. Great great show. Overall 9/10 id say.
It makes me think of the show Rome also an HBO sow except the opposite. Opulent sets great characters but they condensed a huge historical events into 2 seasons. You get the impression they realized at the end when it got popular it should have been 5 or 6 seasons. I’d love to see your analysis of it and it’s a relatively short watch for a series.
Rome was fantastic!
Rome could have ran for a decade! So many potential storylines...
Rome was supposed to be 3 seasons but HBO pulled the plug and they had to wrap it in S2.
@@MrRjh63still a great show they did the best they possibly could w 24 epsiodes
The show was almost completely worth watching simply for Gyp Rosetti. What a powerhouse of a character.
Fuck yeah!
No, he got on my nerves, an overacting mess!
@@Terelon initially I too thought he was a "overreacted" character, but as season 3 progresses you come to understand the guy is actually insane, so he's not overreacting a "mafia guy", he's literally playing the character of a deeply unstable man, and overral I think it fits well.
I loved most if it and really think it's underrated overall. There was some lame storylines and some overacting but you're right about it being too Nucky centric that was just getting good when it ended. However, it's an epic historical crime drama. Not many series in the genre made better than Boardwalk.
It is strange how it is simultaneously a letdown yet somehow underrated
@@edgewiseCL yeah, it's hard to explain. I think cineranter explained it well, I absolutely love buscemi but the Nucky arc wasn't very interesting and had too much time in the spotlight.
I think the point of lacking ambition is spot on, Boardwalk felt like it was just going through the motions of a gangster show without really having anything to say. The gangster genre is somewhat about power fantasies but it's really about the American Dream and the pursuit of it, these showrunners didnt really understand that
This! No cap!
Yeah it was definitely a fun show to watch but it doesn’t have any core message, just cool scenes with 1920s gangsters killing each other as well as the aftermaths of those killings lol
to your point about and beyond power fantasy....a good mob movie needs to be FUN! more than violence i think stuff like Casino, Goodfellas, Sopranos ect resonates particularly with males because it's cool bros hanging out being bros...friendship. It's like boys hanging out smoking and gambling and joking until 3am while their goomah at the hotel awaits. to be doing that as a 50 year old man appeals to the inner kid. Like Pinocchio going to that boys island as an adult.
I think they just didn’t care. The show was sold as a gimmick, like The Untouchables the series, and it never rose above that.
@@nothingissimplewithlloydthey did care, characters were getting developed. It had beautiful quotes, & beautiful writing. The budget is what killed the show..
I enjoyed BE the first time around. I found it gripping, well acted, funny, sad, clever. All the great things. Then a couple years ago when I got the HBO/Max app I decided to watch it all again. I found it just as good if not better. From Gillian to James, and everyone's tragic story, the trauma and sadness was kind of overwhelming. During my first watch I was judging and hating everyone's bad or evil behavior. In this second watch I felt more sympathetic and honestly it was harder to watch. I had to take a lot of breaks to regroup and steel myself. It's a brilliant show. I loved it. I wished Nucky could've lived but I totally understand why he had to die, from a writer's POV.
AMEN BROTHER! CRITICISM COME EASY...
Everyone dies, we all die.
This video is why I value your opinion on these shows. Always honest and you have no problem frustrating your audience at times. It makes your analysis authentic
Gyp Rosetti cursed the show after he got stabbed in the back.
I am a die hard sopranos fan... but I love love boardwalk empire. Both based on New Jersey and both based on the Mob world (although boardwalk a little more historically accurate) and myself being a Sicilian descendant and a lifelong resident of New Jersey...(some people will crucify me) I think Boardwalk was just as good. One of the best shows ever on TV. The actors did a brilliant job and I'll take Nucky over Tony B any day of the week.
They’ll only thrown insults your way if they haven’t seen the show. The reality is, the show could’ve actually been better than Sopranos if they were allowed to continue with the budget.
I think in a lot of respects it is demonstrably better than Sopranos. The performances probably being the most obvious. There are some legendary turns in Sopranos as well of course, but there's A LOT of hammy nonsense too if we're honest with ourselves. Boardwalk is wall to wall impeccable acting.
The fact that this show is so rarely mentioned, memed or quoted confirms the premise of this video
It doesn't confirm anything. For people react to, or remember mediocrity. That's confirmed. This brilliant show, wasn't that. You can call it rushed though. However, it was memorable, particularly the characters and their stories.
Boardwalk Empire is in my top 5 greatest shows of all time, but I'd argue that there's one reason why it's not mentioned as often as some shows of its era: history.
That is, many viewers simply lack the historical wherewithal to connect with a show that's so deeply steeped in a history that, especially in the earlier seasons, is basically unknown to a wider audience. Even with the show diverting from history a great deal, the earlier seasons were very much "in the weeds", even with the backdrop of Prohibition and the Roaring 20s, you're still talking an time periods that people know thematically, but not historically. Because of that, once you've gotten past the veneer of the themes, you're solely left with a very particular story about people, historical or not, that you simply don't know, in a time period incredibly distant from your own.
With a show like Breaking Bad, it benefits by not being historical. People in general more easily connect with things of their time period than things prior or beyond, so you don't require the additional intellectual heft of conveying the historical aspects. With a show like Mad Men, while it was historical, the fundamental narrative wasn't at all dependent on the historicity of the characters and subject matter. People don't need to know or understand who created the Lucky Strike adverts, or how crazy the real-life Conrad Hilton was, or even how significant the JFK assassination was to the average American regardless of political persuasion. The history was a veneer and a backdrop meant to evoke a certain feeling, nothing more, nothing less.
Boardwalk Empire, conversely, was strongly tied to its history (which only got magnified in later seasons). It's telling that, as seasons passed, you saw the introduction of more historical persons who would immediately garner attention from an audience. I could count on one hand the amount of non-historians who would know who Enoch Johnson was, but Al Capone is inarguably the most well-known gangster of all-time. We might connect emotionally to a Jimmy Darmody or a Richard Harrow, but our eyes widen and our ears perk up when we see a portrayal of a Lucky Luciano or Meyer Lansky.
However, because of that, it's indelibly tied to the history so much that it often loses out on the emotional connection you get with characters who are fictional. That is to say, one of the benefits of a narrative featuring wholly fictional characters is that the audience don't enter with any preconceived notions or expectations about how that character is supposed to be. There is no real Walter White or Don Draper that we have a reference point; however, people know and have expectations of how an Al Capone or a Lucky Luciano or a Meyer Lasnky (to admittedly varying degrees) should be. Because of that, you lose a bit of the emotional connection that is necessary for a show to be truly remembered in the annals of time.
Think about this: when you ask the average person to name what they think are the best shows of all time, I'd argue that most of those answers would be shows that are 1. Not historical and/or 2. If historical, the character(s) we follow aren't historical figures (and perhaps more apt, not well-known historical figures). A historical narrative, even if it's a majority fictional one, will always result in somewhat of an emotional disconnect, because the historicity of the narrative necessitates an intellectual understanding before you get to the emotional connection with the characters. If you say that character A, B, and C are facsimiles of their historical selves, you place a demand upon the audience to know and understand the historical selves (regardless of whether these historical peoples are well-known or essentially anonymous).
To reference a recently-ended phenomenon of a show, imagine if Succession, instead of being a veiled reference to the Murdoch, Maxwell, Black, and Trump families (to varying degrees, with the Murdochs being most prominent), was a historical docudrama of the Murdochs. There's undoubtedly enough history within that family and their dealings to warrant 4 seasons of absolutely gripping television, but would it have the emotional pull of the Succession we got? No, because the historicity requires a splitting of our intellectual and emotional attentions. The show works because of the plausability of the absurdity, and the fact we can impart whatever we feel to the characters because of their fictional nature.
So, Boardwalk Empire, being a historical (or quasi-historical) show was always going to be limited in terms of its long-term lasting evocative feelings. Frankly put, no historical show can ever reach those heights of emotion, because you're either constrained by the history (and thus the build will always result in a rather tepid crescendo), or you veer so far from the history that you either piss off people who are watching for the history, or you raise the question of why not go fully fictional. This is also why historical narratives tend to be more evocative in movies, because it's simply easier to capture and hold the emotional attention of an audience for 2-3 hours than it is for 5+ seasons over a comparable number of years. It's why you have a host of memorable movies surrounding JFK, but almost no shows of quality about him. It's why Saving Private Ryan is more loved and remembored than Band of Brothers.
@giovannifitzpatrick1987 Hang on, if I'm summarising your essay accurately, your salient point is that people don't connect with the show because of its anchor to history?
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but the masses would wilfully not watch an entertaining show because of history?
Do you want to think that one over? Because to me, it seems a bit silly.
The. Show. Was. BORING.
It lacks charm, character and somehow makes itself even more dour than The Wire but has none of the shows intelligence and wit.
We're all fans of gangster shows here, just not shit ones.
@@adamweisshaup You've misunderstood what I'm saying.
My point is that shows which are heavily tied to actual history tend to be less entertaining (to a wider audience) than shows which are wholly fictional, because of the limitations of the historical narrative. Instead of crafting a wholly fictional story you want, you're now constrained (to various extents) by the actual history. The extent of that constraint can be very tight (with a show such as John Adams, also on HBO) or it can be very loose, to the degree of now being alt-history (the Man in the High Tower or Godfather of Harlem).
To that point, if the history isn't particularly thrilling on its own, a show that stays too close to the history can be a brilliant show, just not particularly entertaining. No different than the fact that many people would gladly pay $15 to see an epic superhero movie, but won't do the same for an out-and-out documentary of a historical event, or even a biopic of a historical figure unless the activity surrounding that figure was thrilling in and of itself.
I'm a history buff, so I loved the show even though they made narrative choices that we incredibly ahistorical solely out of a desire to be more entertaining for people who might not know, nor care, about the history. I didn't find it particularly boring, and while I can't say for certain your range of tastes, perhaps mine is a bit more expansive as the differences between Boardwalk Empire and The Wire are significant enough to warrant a requisite change in expectations for what you're going to get from the narrative.
Hell, the two seasons that people tend to like the least about The Wire (seasons 2 and 5) are the two seasons where the plot shifts focus to more mundane areas of life that require a bit more knowledge and understanding to "get" why they're interesting (longshore and stevedore politics, and newsrooom/journalism business).
It sounds like one of the central problems that bogged BE down was Michael Pitt. Him being such a problem (wouldn't film his scenes with most co-stars) likely forced them to change direction, which deprived the show of its most interesting character and damaged the product, before and after.
The show was briefly rescued by the sheer screen-chewing presence of Bobby Cannavale as Gyp Rosetti - before killing him off, too!
So, in three seasons, it went from "Must Watch" to "Can Skip" TV, and that is a crying shame.
There was a war, Gyp had to go. There was no way he was going to continue to live, if Nucky didn’t kill him..Joe would’ve. If Joe didn’t kill him, Lucky would’ve killed him when they killed Joe..or maybe even before. Definitely would’ve liked if it was Lucky & Meya to kill him, a little war in New York. That’s not what I got though 🤷🏾♂️🍷
@@Ishbikesthere was supposed to be that war in the new york implemented to the ornginal 16 episode s5… so disappointing bruh
@@Ishbikesat least they made a good choice by putting all their money into s4 of game of thrones instead of this
We never got those stories because Game of Throne's skyrocketing budget cut into this shows budget.
Boardwalk so beautifully shot it’s worth watching just to be transported to that era.
The acting was absolutely phenomenal. It was originally intended to span the entire prohibition era when HBO pulled the plug.
I wouldn’t blame the writers or show runners or anyone but the network execs. If the writers et al. had KNOWN from the beginning they would only have five seasons, the pacing would’ve been different.
We were robbed of another three (five? Can’t remember) years of BE.
Your criticisms are all valid, but blame the bigwigs at HBO for its abrupt end. It was a story that was never intended to be told in only five seasons.
I think you nailed it, the ending felt very compressed and rushed. It sometimes felt like storylines ended just to end them, whether or not it made sense.
Very nice analysis. I totally get where you were coming from re: Nucky “required” to be the central character. I remember wanting to see where Lucky Luciano, Meyer Lansky and Ben “Bugsy” Siegel, wound up.
I remember being upset when HBO announced that Season 5 would be the final season. A real tragedy. They could’ve done SO much with it…
These are historical figures; research them. Focusing the story on a fictional gangster allowed the writers to explore, stretch, challenge and imagine more than they could have done if the series was based on an actual person. This way, Nucky was several characters rolled into one. Steve Buscemi was FAB!
I feel a similar way about Peaky Blinders. I really.enkoy it in alot of ways but at times it feels hollow.
I think Peaky is supposed to be a really cool and fun show to watch, as opposed to be a deep meaningful piece of Art and Writing, I thought the best they did was those slowmotion montages where they're walking or something is about to happen with great choice of music in the background, or their Climax Scenes like the Season 2 Finale with that dude getting shot
the first 2 Seasons were the peak of it I think personally
I think that, unlike shows like Sopranos or Breaking Bad, Blinders and Boardwalk didn't really have an overarching vision or something they really wanted to say. It leaned a bit too far into the power fantasy of being a gangster, instead of something more profound
@@natedogg890 damn that's the phrase I was looking for and couldn't find it, 'over-arching vision', certain points and meaning that the writer is trying to give the viewer, these two shows lack that, which they are not required to do but it disqualifies them from being considered to have 'great writing'.
The thing I like about Boardwalk is how it caputers the feeling of a transitionary period. Where singular men of power rise up and take over these untapped markets are starting to go by the wayside for a more organized corporation. Luciano's story of starting from humble beginings to becoming the father of La Cosa Nostra should've been more prominent. It felt like the story took too much time finding its stride that by the time it really found the subject matter it wanted to focus on, it was already over.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying but I was invested in the show for a few reasons one I'm a veteren so I felt a connection to Jimmy and Richard. That scene when Richard ask Jimmy if he would fight for him and Jimmy replies to the last bullet always chokes me up. They were more than partners in crime, they were brothers. Something civilians will never understand. My great grandfather's during that time in history were on opposite sides of the law. My great-grandfather on my dad's side was a bootlegger running booze from Canada to Michigan across the Saint Clair River and my great-grandfather on my mom's side was a police officer who happened to have been kidnapped by the Purple Gang which Al Capone refers to in the show as the Jews in Detroit. They let my great-grandfather go because as you know kidnapping a cop brings way too much heat
Is Jimmy's loyalty to Richard to the last bullet sincere, though? I always felt that exchange was laden with the possibility it wasn't.
@@intelligencelimited2708yes. That’s why he didn’t have him come to his death. Or possibly just have Harold snipe everyone there. So yes, Jimmy was indeed loyal.
@@Ishbikes Harold? Who dat? if there isn't ambivalence or self-centreness in Jimmy, then why does Richard ask the question in the first place? The line is put there for a reason. I'm not saying there isn't any bond between them, but it's a question of degree. Really, they don't know each other that well, it's not a long term association and it's a friendship that's never been tested. They didn't serve together. And wannabee mobsters aren't famous for their undying loyalty. If I was Richard, I would ask the same question.
@@intelligencelimited2708 Man, you know I meant Harrow. Richard Harrow..
@@intelligencelimited2708 they had LOYALTY. “They didn’t know each
For that long.” Yet Richard asked Jimmy fight with him. Jimmy responded “right down to the last bullet.” They were veterans, they were brothers. You need to watch the show again
Let's not forget the fact that the show was one of the most cancerously depressing watches on serialized TV. It had few if any moments of levity or humor even joy. It embodied despair, darkness, corruption and a sense that no one will ever see the light again. So, no surprise that people don't go back to it: how many people do you know who have kicked clinical depression who want to go back for a re-live?
It was a really good show. I didn't particularly like the inaccuracies like Nucky getting killed and I felt they always killed people too soon. I mean Chalky White was an awesome character and to just have him let Narcisse win and be executed was a downer. Harrow as well, I felt there needed to be another scene with him and the boy. It was so much that could've been done but left undone. I like the idea of continuing the series to the present day. That would've been amazing with the whole Kennedy arc
yeah it did feel empty, it had amazing scenes but as a whole and when it comes to meaning and the point to the writing? it doesn't go anywhere 80% of the times, it specially felt empty after Jimmy dies at the end of Season 2
I absolutely LOVED Boardwalk Empire, I’ve watched it front to back maybe 5x but I do agree they could’ve did more • the 1929 St. Valentines Day Massacre which lives in infamy in mob history as Al Capone wipes out the rest of Dean O’Banions North Side gang, also Capone wiping out the reputable Genna Brothers, Arnold Rothsteins death, Frankie Yales death, Capone literally whacking Albert Anselmi & John Scalise (2 of the men that killed Dean O’Banion) w/ a baseball bat which is shown in The Untouchables & of course not going deeper into the 1930s-40s with Lucky and the commission. So much promise, so many things they could’ve did with 1 or 2 extra seasons OR a spin-off
Like ranter said man the possibilities were endless...you could even branch out into public enemies territory since Baby Face Nelson and other depression era outlaws had encounters or were employed by members of the National Crime Syndicate.
@@edgewiseCL maaaaan that’s brilliant. I couldn’t write out all of the probable directions they could’ve explored but they missed out big time
@@DizzyDaDon sadly true
Interesting thing is, that it was my first prestige tv series, which I watched weekly on TV, when it was over I watched Breaking Bad and after that I found a series about a certain New Jersey crime boss.
I think the creators did the best they could with their budget and time/season constraints. Your criticisms (like usual) are fair, well reasoned, and honest. Sometimes I think they were going more for a 1920s atmosphere/look/feel rather than making the story and characters better. For the most part I do agree with you.
Agree 100%. I like the show, but it just has so much wasted potential. There are a lot of individual moments of greatness, and some the characters are extremely compelling, but so much of it was just okay and the best characters have very little screentime in comparison to the less interesting ones. I think the flashbacks with Nucky in season 5 should have happened back in season 1, because prior to those scenes Nucky is kind of a dull character who lacks humanization, and all that backstory was just too little too late.
Great points. As much as I loved this show, making Nucky the main character and central figure of the show and not wavering from that ethos for 5 Seasons was the ultimate reason I think many fans feel the same way as you. Historically speaking, when you essentially "cliff note" the rise of the two most legendary gangsters in American history - Luciano and Capone- and instead choose to focus on a MUCH lesser known Jersey "fixer", it's only natural that fans of the era were going to ultimately be let down. The fact that the overall show was as interesting as it was bows almost completely to the writing and performances of the side characters through the seasons - Chalky, Gyp, Harrow- just to name a few. Still a great show, and several memorable scenes and great performances, but, in essence, the bread could never fully rise because the basic yeast simply wasn't good enough.
The content lately has been fantastic. Your thoughts on BE are so spot on in comparison to my own it is really scary. I always held hope out that the show could spawn two spin-offs, one focusing on Chicago, one on New York, allowing all the characters to breathe even deeper and still engage in crossovers littered with over the top bloody crime film goodness.
Twas a dream, unfortunately.
Keep it up CineRanter!
It was a show about the loss of innocence. America lost its innocence in prohibition. We watched all the characters lose theirs. In the last season we saw how Nucky lost his years before. First time I watched it, I didn't get it. It was people who were broken by the loss of their innocence and the aftermath.
Because they were really innocent when they were killing the native population, getting rich from the slave trade, being ruled over by uber corrupt city bosses like Boss Tweed, having terf wars between street gangs that lasted days or even weeks, creating monopoly capitalists like the Rockefellers, who'd make Jeff Bezos look good, shooting striking miners, selling orphaned kids through baby farms and sometimes just keeping the money the state gave them for those kids and secretly killing them and lot more heinous stuff that I'd get into if it wasn't late and I needed to sleep. Please, just for once, could we leave all the, "there were innocent times, before insert X date or incident", prelapsarian delusion behind? There was never a more innocent time. Just times that were really bad or times that were worse than that.
Also, Nucky lost his innocence during Prohibition? The guy was a corrupt politician who got fast tracked into a lucrative and powerful position because he put a young orphaned girl into the clutches of a powerful p*e*o. That guy was the least innocent of the lot.
Thank you, I’ve always wondered why I didn’t like this show when I felt like I very much should have.
I whole heartedly agree with your opinion. I’ve watched boardwalk twice and both times I remember feeling the same way. As odd as it may sound I think that it suffered from taking on too much and having too wide a scope without the development of what they had. I think the idea of alternating characters like you said would have been genius, but it felt like they kept adding more to the world with a lack of substance. I hope your second watching goes well!
The first 2 seasons of Boardwalk Empire were better than seasons after. Gyp Rosetti was an interesting villain for a minute or two until you realize he's more based on a Roman Emperor than any real-life bootlegger in 1922. Chicago's storyline did much more to keep the later seasons going than Nucky's arc, but as a guy who grew up watching Adam Sandler movies with Steve Bucemi as a side character I enjoyed watching him take the lead as a politician who controls all these strings surrounding Prohibition.
I agree that there is a very odd lack of legacy and long-term interest for the show. It’s disappointing because I loved this show and think about it quite often.
I watched this show after it ended and I totally agree, it felt too rushed and not fleshed out enough. I would've loved a storyline revolving around Rothstein, Capone and Lucky Luciano.
This show holds a special place in my heart watched it in the beginning of this year going through a lot of medical problems and a lot of free time at home my grandma and I would watch episodes back to back but after the final season we felt disappointed like you said the last season felt so rushed
The casting and the writing made the show as good as it was. I agree it was a little disappointing given all the subject matter they had to work with.
I feel you on this as much as I loved it. Greatest missed potential imo was Carnivale. They had 6 seasons planned and mapped out and we only got 2
One of the other things that really lacked impact was Buscemi's performance honestly. I like him in many things but his acting was so one-note in Boardwalk Empire that his character just didn't seem all that complex or interesting. That once face he pulls where he purses his lips and raises his eyebrows was seemingly his go-to for every emotion from pride to intense anger. Honestly I remember him pulling it so often I started to roll my eyes whenever he did it.
First time I've ever disagreed with a video of yours, my dude. I just finished watching the whole thing a couple weeks ago. It became a binging obsession and I hope you do sit down to watch it again. You mentioned the sumptuous visuals and production values so I won't go on. I will say that Boardwalk has fantastic writing. Every season is like a good novel and I think they all end - even Season 5 - in a very satisfying manner. I think all of the actors did a great job and I think Nucky Thompson is a compelling gangster; breaking the mold in some places, reinforcing it in others.
As structured and well laid out as the stories are there is also a thread of chaos that runs through all the character's lives and this very much a Soprano's style 'who can think of everything' type of vibe. It's a perfect way to throw curveballs into a gangster story as already proven in The Sopranos.
Finally I want to say that at first I didn't like the flashbacks in Season 5. I thought 'we already have been told these stories.' The thing is the flashback story got more and more compelling. It gave Season 5 its 'full circle' moment. I didn't even know the show was cancelled! If so then I think it's all the more impressive the way it all went down.
I watched this show a few years ago so my memory isn't that fresh but I distinctly remember the show getting worse and worse as the seasons went on. It felt like the show's writing was getting less "smart", not outright stupid, just not smart.
Just finished season 2 yesterday. Ending properly pissed me off. Not sure i want to continue. Only character i like now is Richard. You who have seen it all, whats ur recomendation?
My problem was that ALL the characters(except Margaret ofc but she's not that exciting either of course) were essentially the same, "greedy gangster who's constantly cracking wise", look at the Sopranos, you had very different and complex characters with complex motivations, you had psychos like Richie, Junior who had lived a life of resentment first for his younger brother then for his nephew, sadistic Ralph, survivor Paulie, Christopher who wanted to step up so bad that he killed a guy, never recovered from it, took up drugs and it eventually lead to his own death, and Tony Soprano, one of the best characters in TV history, even the more "side" characters like Carmella, AJ, Meadow, dr Melfi, Patsi, Livia, Svetlana, etc all had so much personality in them, whereas most of the time characters in Boardwalk felt just like functions, moving figures instead of people, they didn't even talk like real people do, the only exceptions for that are probably Van Alden and Al Capone, but like the minute I saw Rosetti on screen in s3e1 I was like "so that's our villain of the week, who's function is to look intimidating in a couple of scenes then die", and when I saw Narcisse in the next season I didn't even bother with him that much, just was surprised when he didn't die in the end
SPOILERS BELOW
The show took a wrong turn when they killed Jimmy and left Nucky alive. Massive error and the show never really recovered, for me at least.
Gahh damn this is why I love CZcams and your channel. All the Boardwalk videos on my channel object to this but this is the platform where every opinion is valid. Bro, As much as I disagree with all your points, I find myself agreeing to them in some way. Even what you said about fanfair about the wire and boardwalk specifically. The Sopranos has multiple channels dedicated to just soprano content. The wire has multiple as well. Shout out A Mans World Podcast, and The Chop Shop, but when I was doing research about videos on YT about Boardwalk pryor to making mine, I found your videos about Jimmy, Arnold Rothstein and nothing much more. I would love your opinions on some of my videos about the characters. But if any of my subscribers are seeing this, this is a very respectable take from a person who has paved the way for tv show and movie narrators like myself. Respect brotha😤
Sopranos is a hangout show, you can put it on and feel like you’re hanging out with the characters, while Boardwalk is big , loud, and bombastic like the 1920’s.
I do enjoy the show . I just wish we were still enjoying on television. Tremendous potential. Even for spin-offs. Would actually love you to make a video with a few spin-offs that could have been done as their own shows from Boardwalk Empire. Your videos are always great.
Similar to how I felt after Game of Thrones finale, haven't watch any of that show since. So much potential greatness
You should watch Peaky Blinders, it does deliver most of the way. The last season was its weakest unfortunately, trying to appeal to the American market too much but it still holds up. And watching the rise of a man from nothing to basically a king is a masterpiece of television to behold. It’s like what Boardwalk wanted to be but actually delivers.
Really superb thoughts and explanation. Strange that you seem to put your finger on the problem precisely, because I enjoyed the show a lot, but I could see how it was just missing something, and seemingly, that is the fact that those 3 supporting characters were never allowed to overcome the main character. It really could have been a long, long show but perhaps that's the limitation of budgets and interests and lives. Great video. Outstanding!! It makes me think if the right people will just see it we'll get those Capone, Rothstein, and Luciano stores. Perhaps.
The first 3 seasons are amazing. The mob war at the end of 3 is one of the best things I’ve ever seen on tv.
The problem with this show is that it’s not about anything. Ultimately it never rises above the gimmick.
100% nailed it on the analysis. I love Steve Buscemi, but I always felt he was the weakest part of this show. Not sure if it has to do with him being a better supporting actor than a main, or something else, but like you mentioned, it felt like he was forced into every plot/storyline, even when it made no sense. Capone was probably my favorite character in the show, but agreed again, that all the real life characters were what made me keep watching and wanting more of them. Love the channel, btw - always great stuff.
Sopranos, The Wire, Breaking Bad, Oz, all these were outstanding series…. Boardwalk Empire never ever caught my attention…. Not one iyota. Iykyk!
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions. Even if I disagree. Still love the channel. Still very much entertaining as always
Well said (as per usual). I watched BE, enjoyed it, but honestly, now, as you're talking about it, I can't really remember a thing about it. I remember some of the characters, of course, but nothing potent. It simply didn't lodge itself in my subconscious the way Mad Men, Deadwood, the Wire, the Sopranos, and Breaking Bad did. I never think about BE and those other shows are continually swirling about in my mind. Nearly every day something happens in my own life, some scenario or quirky something that instantly makes me think of a scene or character or quote from those other shows. In short, for whatever reason, BE is simply not iconic (to me). It was engaging enough to watch, but just as you're saying, it just kind of came and went. Every now and again I'm like, "Oh yeah, Boardwalk Empire...maybe I should rewatch that." But I never do.
Just a couple hours ago I was at the front desk of the hotel I'm in and the clerk was laughing to her colleague about how her name is Marilyn but there's another Marilyn in the system already so she has to go by Mary. Needless to say, I instantly thought of Mad Men: "Eugene Hofstadt #2. Eugene Hofstadt #2." (Betty's dad, whose bank employed two Eugene Hofstadts.) Like, that's the kind of throwaway line that Mad Men (especially) and those other shows are replete with, which have nothing whatever to do with plot, but make the show real, make it come up again and again and again in the most banal of situations. They're connected to the fucking regularness of life in a way that shows like Boardwalk aren't.
It's that deep, absurd, banal connection to the regularness of life that makes shows iconic. That makes them lived in.
Not to say that Boardwalk doesn't have those, just that if it does, for whatever reason, they failed to take with me.
You’re right. It had all the potential to be a masterpiece and it just wasn’t.
I completely agree with this. I have rewatched the series since and I enjoyed it far more, which I think was due to the lowered expectations. But when I originally watched it as it aired, there was the constant feeling that the show was headed in certain directions only to detour and never arrive at the destination you assumed it was heading.
I think, not only the focus on Thompson, but the very title and premise of the show limited its scale. They found this interesting story of the mayor involved in bootlegging, but as the show moved on and that story had been explored, it would be hard to move to the more famed stories of New York and Chicago without the title becoming a misnomer.
There is an alternative argument to be made that rather than expanding the story it could have been condensed. A tighter story focused on this previously forgotten and interesting part of the prohibition story, told perhaps over 3 seasons, with the New York gangsters given more peripheral roles, would perhaps also have elevated it to a true classic
We pretty much agree on this one. If I may add a bit of my own, I was genuinely surprised when Jimmy was killed off at the end of season 2, since season 1 seemed to be building up to the confrontation between him and Nucky, it felt like it all happened really quick, but I thought it was done to make room for something bigger, like, as you said, the council, Capone etc… but it didn’t. And it got me frustrated.
( also vids on Deadwood would be very welcome ).
The actor playing Jimmy was apparently difficult to work with which is probably why the character made an early exit.
I pretty much agree with you entirely. It was a good show but it felt like forced successor to the Sopranos but never stacked up.
Why don't you do Mad Men? I would love to hear your takes on that one.
I knew they jumped the shark as soon as they introduced Gyp Rosetti in season 3.
You have all these interesting characters and storylines, and you introduce a brand new one that becomes the main focus of an entire season.
I said to myself, 'They are going to take their time with this show'
I think that's when viewers really dropped off, in season 3.
The producers clearly realized their mistake and fast-tracked the storyline in season 4, but it was too late.
The viewers were gone.
Season 5 felt cheap, just guys sitting around empty offices, hotel rooms and restaurants, because I think they got canceled at the end of season 4, but begged HBO for 1 more season with a small budget.
Many characters were just killed off in the final episode cuz they did not have the money to film more scenes with them.
Gyp was too cartoonish.
@@VanirTraditionalist you finished season 2 with one of the most fantastic moments in TV history (Jimmy's death).... and you come back a year later, and you get a one-dimensional villain for the entire season, and you ignore other characters people wanted to see more of.
I think it was Gyp Rosetti that broke Boardwalk Empire. Gyp was the main focus of the entire season and people only remember about 3 good scenes with him and even that it was because the characters we liked were doing things in those scenes not him (Harrow shootout, & Bugsy Seagal shoot), the other scene was his death scene.
Take Richy Aprille in The Sopranos, a new villain character in season 2 introduced as being evil just like Gyp, people remember dozens of scenes of just him as being great. that's how you make a memorable new character that you kill off the same season. Plus he didn't take screen time away from fan favorites, they still told the entire Big PXXsy saga in the background of the Rich aprillie saga.
People still say they loved season 3, but I don't think season 3 was well-received by the general audience.
Season 3 was the turning point.
I totally disagree as I believe that this show was meant to be a period place and nothing more. I remember watching this and I felt like that I had been transported to 1920's America. The cinematography was outstanding as well. It was a pretty ambitious show but l believe that the show succeeded in giving us memorable characters and amazing stories.
Well...since you put it like that 😅. Good points. But ultimately, I think that the reason why the show isn't discussed as much as its genre contemporaries is that it didn't have as much of a mainstream fan base as the others did (not many women or young people followed the series whien it aired). Nice video, BTW.
Boardwalk Empire has great scenes and excellent characters, superb character and story arcs... But it doesn't have the same lasting feelings like some of the other great series.
I felt the final 2 seasons were unwatchable. Also Jimmy was killed off not for story purposes but for internal purposes
I completely agree. I think season three was best cause we had a real villain who had a boss that was even higher up that chain. I like Lucianos and Meyers story and it ends with a WTF moment. Phenomenal. And gyp was a force. He was a great character and we actually got a story to the guy and his personality really drove his arc. But with boardwalk too much just extra going on. You said it right. Also better shows do what you said, the have meat to them and this show, it only felt like season 3 had that. But alot of people say the wire is best at season 3 and 4 but I love it all cause it's just smart and well done.
Great analysis. I’ve been feeling pretty much the same and have always considered it a weird feeling and was never quite able to word it. You did. Thanks.
You're correct. I was very disappointed. I bought the entire series without watching it first because I trusted those involved. I ended up giving it away to a friend when I was finished with it. So many characters and storylines were treated very badly by the writers.
I don't always agree with you, in fact I disagree with you frequently, but I think you are so spot on here. I've never been able to figure out why I couldn't get into this show. When it was on I tried and since it's been over, I've tried a few times but I always lose interest. You are 100% correct that this show lacks ambition. It's aimless. The worst part is this show has some incredible casting. Everything about this show is first rate, but it just falls a little short.
I personally still love the show and think it’s a satisfying conclusion. I get it was rushed, but honestly I rather a show have an ending, than no ending at all.
I could only take one season of it. Buscemi was totally miscast. The role required a man with a convincingly sexy charisma. Now, of course Buscemi is very famous and successful and has in real life been an actual firefighter, but his fame is based around playing weedy little schnurks, weedy little schnurks with ferocious tempers on occasion maybe, but a whole different species from the omni-competent, fearsome and attractive guy Nucky is conceived as being. I always thought that Buscemi seemed as bewildered by his casting as I was.
I feel like boardwalk Empire had too much going on at the same time toward the and what's just reintroducing characters that have already made their mark. Killing off Jimmy way too early after that it became too predictable that they would have a main villan every season.
I loved this show in the beginning.But in the end everyone I loved was dead and I was left with a deep hatred of jimmys mom.
Really? She was a mentally ill woman, who at 13 was cynically traded off, for political points, to a middle aged man who sexually abused her. She was an orphan, with no one in the world to help her, or protect her, whose only way of being intimate with anyone was through using her looks and sexuality as a commodity. A horrific life lesson taught to her by her sociopathic abuser. This early experience moulded her into someone who was also an abuser, who committed acts of incest with her son, because for her, that equalled love, Someone who cold bloodedly killed a young drifter for financial gain, because such ruthless exploitation was all that she knew or could understand. In a world like BE where everyone, save a few characters, was some kind of monster, she seems like a strange choice as a hate figure, given the exact circumstances of her being the way she was. Mainly, I just pitied her.
@@adamsmith7058she can be a victim and an extremely hateable bad person at the same time. I know her story. I just don’t care. I don’t have the same empathy as you. I was so sick of her and her bs by the end of the show that I was mad they focused on her but not other important events that happened off screen. They should have ended her characters story.
Something is definetly missing from the last 2 seasons like if the showrunners lost faith in the potential of the series. Or maybe they didn’t know were they were going with it. I’m glad that a lot of actors from Boardwalk like Graham, Cannavale and Cancelmi got to play parts in The Irishman to me that is the legacy of the show !
Irishman was a disappointment to. Their performances in both were really good though. I liked Graham as Capone. I thought he pulled it off well.
HBO is known for having great shows w huge fan base and then they get canceled and give them one last season and they rush it and throw it away smh. Such a great network but so many huge mistakes.
“Heavy is the head that wears the crown”
I enjoyed Boardwalk Empire but for me after the first season I found myself interested more in what other characters were doing instead of what Nucky was doing and wanted to follow their stories over his... But then that kind of gets in to where if you are a fan of the gangster era of TV shows, movies, documentaries, etc the stuff with the other characters mainly only touched on major historic events that pretty much you probably already know, with just little twists to weave it in to the rest of the series - IE: Van Alden being there when Dean O'Banion gets shot in his flower shop
Hey, I totally get your point. The first two seasons of Boardwalk feel different than the rest of the show, and you can see it more clearly after a couple rewatches. Near the end it seemed as if the showrunners lost the vision they had for the show. Dabney Coleman was suppose to play a larger role in the original run, and that also meant Jimmy Darmody's arc would've been different too. Dabney started having health problems, and it dramatically effected his performance in season 2. So much so that they had to rewrite half of the season, and I think you've even brought that up before. Because the Sopranos was such a phenomenon, and some the Sopranos team was involved with Boardwalk, the execs thought it was have the same tier of fame. When the viewership wasn't the same, and that it was different type of gangster show. You can tell they honed in on more of the gritty Sopranos level of sex and violence. I love this show too, but like you, I also have my fair share of criticisms.
P.S. Have you ever watched the HBO show, Oz? If not, you really should. That show pioneered pretty much every HBO drama.
I love Boardwalk Empire, but when I rewatch it I stop after season 3. Gyp Rosetti was the absolute peak of the show, and after season 3 the show just feels aimless.
For me, the main problem was with the lead character. Yes, we all know Steve Buscemi is an excellent actor, but Steve always works best as a supporting actor, he's never had to carry an entire show or movie on his own. In Boardwalk, the whole show rests on his shoulders and unfortunately he did a decent but unremarkable job. Also, like you said, the stories in each season were surprisingly dull for such an interesting historical backdrop.
Boardwalk Empire never disappointed me. CineRanter consistently disappoints.
This show had a very strong beginning, but it got almost cartoonish with the violence as it went on. A lot of the characters were memorable and grounded, but a few, (mainly Gyp Rosetti), just made the show seem silly at times. The rushed ending also didn’t help. Such a sad waste of potential and good actors.
13:50 The series was always supposed to end the way it did in that final scene. That means the timeline had to get moved ahead to give Jimmy's son time to grow up. Rothstein's decline and death, the meat of Capone's Chicago reign, Luciano's rising through the ranks, all that stuff had to get skipped over so that the last scene in the series finale could happen. A lot of cool story ideas had to get abandoned so that a main character that nobody was all that invested in could have a send off. I don't think that final scene is worth the price we viewers paid for it. But considering what Winter's priorities with the show were all about, it makes sense to structure the final season in that way.
I ended up watching the documentary series Making of the Mob after Boardwalk Empire, and found out about how many real life characters got left out cause the show was canceled. I'm talking mob heavy hitters/legends like Frank Costello, Vito Genovese, Carlo Gambino, Albert Anastasia, Frank Nitti, Paul Ricca, Tony Accardo etc. Guys who all made their bones in this era, and we never got to see them.
A lot of the ones we DID see weren't exactly portrayed accurately, either.
I loved the show but i always said that the side characters were much more interesting than nucky
Seemed like a good idea at the time, but it’s like they didn’t know what to do with it once it got commissioned.
So many incredible shows get ruined and unfinished. Why do these bohemoth companies seemingly rarely every finish what they started, they have near infinit budgets. The pain of these unfinished showes is so real man.
I"ve disagreed with you in the past, but not to the extent I do today. It wasn't supposed to be The Sopranos, but The Office wasn't meant to be Curb Your Enthusiasm, and each are outstanding in their own way. The same holds for Boardwalk Empire and The Sopranos.
First three seasons are brilliantly written. Four is still good but wasn't really building to something. Five deliveries a strong ending for Nucky's story but as a season is rushed. Given how in the big montage they went and reused old scenes.
A lot of people didn't like it because it revolved heavily around cold business . If you watch it with a arcade standpoint it will go over your head and get easily board .
Couldn't agree more, I loved the show but way too much time focused on Nucky which was an ok character but had nothing against the likes of Luciano, Meyer, Rothstein, chalky white, narcise, van Alden, etc.
And the last season was awful, so much wasted screen time on nuckys childhood.
Season 3 and 4 were by far my favorite, Gip Rosetti and Al Capone were my all time favorite performances of all series, incredible performances by amazing actors!