Great interview. I would have quite happily consumed both parts in one sitting. It would be great for you to do more interview style videos with interesting people like this. A good direction for the channel
PT i hardly ever comment on ur vids even though i watch nearly all of them, but i must say this 2 part interview with Dan was amazing, thanks so much....
This series was really good! I love to hear the casual cyclist aero gains version. e.g. 30/50/60mm deep wheels & bang for buck. How much does frame difference actually make. Also a bit more context on the rear / front wheel comments e.g. at lower speeds and average rider should aim for a 30 mm rear vs 28mm. Thanks!
Really interesting discussion around the cobbles. If I remember correctly there have been studies for MTB that found suspension not only reduces rolling resistance over rough surfaces, but also increased speed more than the decreased rolling resistance alone would suggest (likely due to improved comfort and ability to put down consistent power)
There's a recent video on this from Dylan Johnson - he was unable to even find data to suggest that locking out MTB suspension on a flat surface was any quicker apart from psychologically. czcams.com/video/BR10jYyJ4yE/video.html&ab_channel=DylanJohnson
Fantastic interview! Well done in asking direct questions and letting the expert answer. Far too many interviewers will dominate the interview with their questions.
Upvote just because "Obree egg" was mentioned. As much as classical aerospace math and physics can be applied to optimize drag here, there is a whole lot about bicycle aerodynamics that can be inferred from the automotive industry. I have read every single SAE paper with the word aerodynamics in it and none of the things Dan talks about regarding aerodynamics on the track vs on the road and the head angle position re CdA surprises me. For example, I would surmise that if Dan were to test it, head angle would not have as significant an impact on CdA with the superman position as it does with the high hands position he used on the track, because of intrinsic interference drag differences in between both positions. Anyways, two things I'd like to know is what tyre did he run, and if the kask mistral works as well for him on the track as it does on the road considering the different yaw distributions.
Great, informative vid. So for a bigger rider is the aero of the bike a lot less important than a smaller rider, I love cycling but I also love lifting weights, I'm at around 95kg......Will I be losing that much speed with my 'new' vintage track bike build to my aero track bike.
Especially loved the discussion of adding compliance/suspension to the frame. I find the the bike industry has actually gone in the opposite direction with the introduction of disc brakes (much stiffer front fork). My Cannondale R4000si 2003 on 28mm tires is nearly as compliant as my Giant Revolt Adv 2020 on 42mm (tubeless Rene Herse Extralight)!!! I mainly ride on bad tarmac roads and thought the wider tires would make a massive difference in comfort. The wide tires help but the stiff fork has a massively detrimental affect on comfort. I would go back to rim brakes for this reason alone but the selection of rim brake bikes is dwindling :-( BTW, this was an amazing interview! Really impressed by your and Dan's holistic approach to solving problems!
This was what I was also thinking about. Did the introduction of disc brakes (and the needed adding of stiffness to the frame) negate the comfort that came from the ability to mount wider tires? Would be interested in PT-s take on this.
Wider tires are not inherently more comfortable. You have to run them softer than narrow tires - this is NOT the same as simply running lower pressures. And if you run them softer, they're going to drag more on smooth tarmac or when throwing the bike around. Chances are that you're running your 42mm tires way too hard. I know a girl who runs her 38mm tires at 50psi even though she probably weighs 120lbs. I run my 25mm tires at 45-50psi and I weigh 140. Fat tires simply do not work as well as proper suspension if your goal is to go fast. The only question is how to implement suspension in a way that is adjustable according to the weight and preference of the user while still keeping the bike light.
@@404nobrakesbigger tires lose a lot less speed at low pressure than narrow tires do. I wish more bikes had tuneable suspension but having a little non-tuneable suspension mixed with tire selection will get you far unless you're talking really bad cobbles
I am really curious to see the math behind the aero-weight tradeoff when climbing. Like I know that it can be beneficial to add some weight if it means your CDA decreases, but optimizing that must be some hella math.
Concerning the Roubaix setup choices: I tested a litte bit last weekend: 170km with 8km of sectors (the Carrefour being the most technical). Went 3.25 atm front 3.8 rear which makes it really doable to ride the cobbles (scott foil, 55mm rims). Rolling resistance was still OK (no noticeable increase),but putting that low pressures in conti GP5000 TL on fairly wide rims made them move too much whilst cornering. The front end felt like a boat. Knowing how important position & handling are in the race, that would be a huge loss. I guess that's why they run tubs on the high pressure side as well.
I've found the same on MTB tyres - running sub 2 Atm pressure, especially on the rear tyre, makes my hardtail feel really unstable on direction changes, especially noticeable on hard surfaces, but even on rough stuff it squirms noticeably off the line I've put it on. Full suspension bikes will hide this from the rider a bit more effectively, but I can feel the same thing on my full suspension bikes too.
I have a question regarding aero road bikes. If u rode an aero road bike like a Giant Propel at 40km/h on the hoods, what position would your body have to move to to be as aero efficient on a climbing bike like a Giant TCR. i.e. 2 inches lower or completely in the drops
How big is the difference between tubulars and clinchers for the track in terms of roiling resistance? And what would you recommend in terms of balancing ease of use with performance? Love the content!
It is great what you guys have been doing. Keep it up. I've been involved with junior cycling for the last 5 years. I'm aiming to get my son to a pro level (development or continental team) on the cheap as I'm a mere mortal, not having huge budget. I wish you compile a checklist with best spend money in the TT. What Dan has said about 17 watts difference between his old skinsuit and new one is a difference that probably no upgrade in frameset, drivetrain and wheels could compensate. Paris Roubaix of course is interesting and that's why i ride Specialized Roubaix SL3 2013 with Campagnolo Super Record drivetrain with Centaur triple (!!!) and Vittoria Corsa Control front and Specialized Turbo Cotton rear on Fast Forward F6R-C (reinforced) alloy-carbon wheels. But Dan's area of expertise is aerodynamics and I wish, we could exploit him more in that area :) BTW. If I'm correct the fastest bike in Arenberg Forest was XC hardtail, during GCN tests :) I wish to get some data from the road tests on alloy-carbon wheels and full carbon wheels with same height, and similar pressure @45 or 50 km/h. Let's say Zipp 404 Firecrest and some generic alloy-carbon 58 or 60 mm wheel. Could be Hed Jet or FFWD. With help of Notio Konnect for example. And difference between Firecrest and Zipp 454 or Zipp 808 and 858 and Princeton Wake. Is there anything to gain or is it another mareketing gimmick? According to Hambini windtunnel test, they were unimpressive. Maybe we would be better served by buying Winspace Hyper 65 as front TT wheel? And demistifying bullshit like spending huge amounts of money on 0,5-1W on OSPW Ceramic Speed or Absolute Black or ceramic (hybrid) bearings. I've watched your's and Hambini's episode on Absolute Black. Dan stated for PEZ Cycling that Ceramics Speed OSPW is 0,5-1W. I wish you could emphasize how important aero fitting is and how much better this investment is compared to marginal gains from very expensive frameset, wheelset or groupset. And investing in good skinsuit and good, aerodynamic aerobars. Ho much difference there really is between second hand Shiv TT 2014, Tony Martin rode to World Championship, we are using and top of the line, super expensive and maybe much overhyped Shiv TT Disc Remco Evenepoel is using. Please provide a guiding light for us, ordinary consumers with limited resources, how to get most of the bang for the buck without spending a fortune. If possible, please invite Simon Smart and other people who work with World Tour teams, so we will get more insight to what works and what doesn't. Or maybe Matt Bottrill or some top semi-pros not being sponsored and riding aero on the cheap with good results.
Would be interesting to put a drop handlebar on a light full sus xc bike and see how that would perform on Roubaix, not sure the UCI would be happy but I think it would be fast
I am guessing that the UCI has permeability limit regulations concerning cycling skinsuits in much the way that the FIS has (or had?) for downhill ski racing suits, given how draconian they are with EVERY OTHER minutia detail of cycling tech/engineering, correct?
Wouldn't you say the Specialized Roubaix is pretty much a Roubaix optimized bike? Suspension on the front, a faired ultra flexy seat post, and pretty aero for the tarmac.
Does Dan have any insights about this Team GB Lotus bike and whether it offers any advantage at all (over rivals) on the track/ how much in terms of Watts? PT and Hambini recently discussed the Lotus bike vs the team Denmark Argon bike, I'm wondering if Dan shares the same opinions, considering he was working with the Danish team... Did they have any fears about Team GB unleashing this new "aero" (ugly) bike at the olympics? Or just thought it was a gimmick?
What is roughly the aero gain of using aero (carbon) tt bars such as the anemoi carbon arm rests vs typical tt bars? Further to the aero gains if any is there any advantage in terms of comfort?
A lot of backroads are dreadful, the trickle down of some road bike suspension that keeps power transfer would be great, well for me and my crappy roads at least
@@peglor oh yeah I actually saw that, tho I still lock out my shocks when I hit tarmac climbs on my hardtail, I actually think a same bit of suspension on roadbikes could be good for average Joes, I reckon most power is lost when the crap surface means your wheels lose contact
As interesting as the applied science is to this + I truly enjoy Dans' continued progress, my mind always harkens back to something I'd read years ago, concerning performance motorcycle building & tuning = "the Computerized Dyno has never won a race..." Anyhow > Good Luck Dan !!
Can't believe you talk such way about Roubaix bikes... Have you seen in the last couple of years how many bike manufacturers gave up building special Roubaix bikes? Why?! Well, because pro riders (not engineers) know best (this time), they don't need those bikes... and, yes, it is their wish. I am happy to see this, when feeling (and clever thinking) is stronger (with results - objective) than "engineering". The last years, last 5 lets say, totally proved that. This year, a very hard Roubaix, debutants all 3 on the podium, aero non-suspended bikes all 3 on the podium... Lets be honest and accept the facts :-) Regards, Mircea
Great interview. I would have quite happily consumed both parts in one sitting. It would be great for you to do more interview style videos with interesting people like this. A good direction for the channel
Audience voted 57% in favour and i listened
@@PeakTorque Either way its good. Would have been shit if the overall video was cut down.
Have a go at Hambini. Famous last words :D
PT i hardly ever comment on ur vids even though i watch nearly all of them, but i must say this 2 part interview with Dan was amazing, thanks so much....
This series was really good! I love to hear the casual cyclist aero gains version. e.g. 30/50/60mm deep wheels & bang for buck. How much does frame difference actually make. Also a bit more context on the rear / front wheel comments e.g. at lower speeds and average rider should aim for a 30 mm rear vs 28mm. Thanks!
Great interview PT! thanks for doing it!
Really interesting discussion around the cobbles. If I remember correctly there have been studies for MTB that found suspension not only reduces rolling resistance over rough surfaces, but also increased speed more than the decreased rolling resistance alone would suggest (likely due to improved comfort and ability to put down consistent power)
There's a recent video on this from Dylan Johnson - he was unable to even find data to suggest that locking out MTB suspension on a flat surface was any quicker apart from psychologically. czcams.com/video/BR10jYyJ4yE/video.html&ab_channel=DylanJohnson
That TCR in the background is HOT! 💥
Fantastic interview! Well done in asking direct questions and letting the expert answer. Far too many interviewers will dominate the interview with their questions.
More of this! Please!
Thank you again gentlemen. Very insightful (of course, well out of my skill and strength bracket)
Really enjoyed both of those, thanks!
Upvote just because "Obree egg" was mentioned. As much as classical aerospace math and physics can be applied to optimize drag here, there is a whole lot about bicycle aerodynamics that can be inferred from the automotive industry. I have read every single SAE paper with the word aerodynamics in it and none of the things Dan talks about regarding aerodynamics on the track vs on the road and the head angle position re CdA surprises me. For example, I would surmise that if Dan were to test it, head angle would not have as significant an impact on CdA with the superman position as it does with the high hands position he used on the track, because of intrinsic interference drag differences in between both positions. Anyways, two things I'd like to know is what tyre did he run, and if the kask mistral works as well for him on the track as it does on the road considering the different yaw distributions.
Great vid. Thanks Dan for the time. Are you no longer offering the 30 mins Skype consultation on wattshop?
Great chat thanks v much
I’d argue early team sky climbing train was taking advantage of the drafting benefit that Dan talked about.
Great, informative vid. So for a bigger rider is the aero of the bike a lot less important than a smaller rider, I love cycling but I also love lifting weights, I'm at around 95kg......Will I be losing that much speed with my 'new' vintage track bike build to my aero track bike.
Especially loved the discussion of adding compliance/suspension to the frame. I find the the bike industry has actually gone in the opposite direction with the introduction of disc brakes (much stiffer front fork).
My Cannondale R4000si 2003 on 28mm tires is nearly as compliant as my Giant Revolt Adv 2020 on 42mm (tubeless Rene Herse Extralight)!!! I mainly ride on bad tarmac roads and thought the wider tires would make a massive difference in comfort. The wide tires help but the stiff fork has a massively detrimental affect on comfort. I would go back to rim brakes for this reason alone but the selection of rim brake bikes is dwindling :-(
BTW, this was an amazing interview! Really impressed by your and Dan's holistic approach to solving problems!
This was what I was also thinking about. Did the introduction of disc brakes (and the needed adding of stiffness to the frame) negate the comfort that came from the ability to mount wider tires? Would be interested in PT-s take on this.
Wider tires are not inherently more comfortable. You have to run them softer than narrow tires - this is NOT the same as simply running lower pressures. And if you run them softer, they're going to drag more on smooth tarmac or when throwing the bike around. Chances are that you're running your 42mm tires way too hard. I know a girl who runs her 38mm tires at 50psi even though she probably weighs 120lbs. I run my 25mm tires at 45-50psi and I weigh 140.
Fat tires simply do not work as well as proper suspension if your goal is to go fast. The only question is how to implement suspension in a way that is adjustable according to the weight and preference of the user while still keeping the bike light.
My Domane is remarkably comfortable and better than my rim brake Domane was
@@KONTRAPodcastframes without suspension built in don't move nearly as much as a tire does.
@@404nobrakesbigger tires lose a lot less speed at low pressure than narrow tires do. I wish more bikes had tuneable suspension but having a little non-tuneable suspension mixed with tire selection will get you far unless you're talking really bad cobbles
I am really curious to see the math behind the aero-weight tradeoff when climbing. Like I know that it can be beneficial to add some weight if it means your CDA decreases, but optimizing that must be some hella math.
Concerning the Roubaix setup choices: I tested a litte bit last weekend: 170km with 8km of sectors (the Carrefour being the most technical). Went 3.25 atm front 3.8 rear which makes it really doable to ride the cobbles (scott foil, 55mm rims). Rolling resistance was still OK (no noticeable increase),but putting that low pressures in conti GP5000 TL on fairly wide rims made them move too much whilst cornering. The front end felt like a boat. Knowing how important position & handling are in the race, that would be a huge loss. I guess that's why they run tubs on the high pressure side as well.
I've found the same on MTB tyres - running sub 2 Atm pressure, especially on the rear tyre, makes my hardtail feel really unstable on direction changes, especially noticeable on hard surfaces, but even on rough stuff it squirms noticeably off the line I've put it on. Full suspension bikes will hide this from the rider a bit more effectively, but I can feel the same thing on my full suspension bikes too.
a 650c rim with a taller tire that measures close to 700c should provide the ideal damping for the cobbles, but will it be ideal for the tarmac?
I have a question regarding aero road bikes. If u rode an aero road bike like a Giant Propel at 40km/h on the hoods, what position would your body have to move to to be as aero efficient on a climbing bike like a Giant TCR. i.e. 2 inches lower or completely in the drops
Congratulations
How big is the difference between tubulars and clinchers for the track in terms of roiling resistance? And what would you recommend in terms of balancing ease of use with performance?
Love the content!
Which skinsuit? 🤔
It is great what you guys have been doing. Keep it up.
I've been involved with junior cycling for the last 5 years. I'm aiming to get my son to a pro level (development or continental team) on the cheap as I'm a mere mortal, not having huge budget. I wish you compile a checklist with best spend money in the TT. What Dan has said about 17 watts difference between his old skinsuit and new one is a difference that probably no upgrade in frameset, drivetrain and wheels could compensate.
Paris Roubaix of course is interesting and that's why i ride Specialized Roubaix SL3 2013 with Campagnolo Super Record drivetrain with Centaur triple (!!!) and Vittoria Corsa Control front and Specialized Turbo Cotton rear on Fast Forward F6R-C (reinforced) alloy-carbon wheels. But Dan's area of expertise is aerodynamics and I wish, we could exploit him more in that area :) BTW. If I'm correct the fastest bike in Arenberg Forest was XC hardtail, during GCN tests :)
I wish to get some data from the road tests on alloy-carbon wheels and full carbon wheels with same height, and similar pressure @45 or 50 km/h. Let's say Zipp 404 Firecrest and some generic alloy-carbon 58 or 60 mm wheel. Could be Hed Jet or FFWD. With help of Notio Konnect for example. And difference between Firecrest and Zipp 454 or Zipp 808 and 858 and Princeton Wake. Is there anything to gain or is it another mareketing gimmick? According to Hambini windtunnel test, they were unimpressive. Maybe we would be better served by buying Winspace Hyper 65 as front TT wheel?
And demistifying bullshit like spending huge amounts of money on 0,5-1W on OSPW Ceramic Speed or Absolute Black or ceramic (hybrid) bearings. I've watched your's and Hambini's episode on Absolute Black. Dan stated for PEZ Cycling that Ceramics Speed OSPW is 0,5-1W.
I wish you could emphasize how important aero fitting is and how much better this investment is compared to marginal gains from very expensive frameset, wheelset or groupset. And investing in good skinsuit and good, aerodynamic aerobars.
Ho much difference there really is between second hand Shiv TT 2014, Tony Martin rode to World Championship, we are using and top of the line, super expensive and maybe much overhyped Shiv TT Disc Remco Evenepoel is using.
Please provide a guiding light for us, ordinary consumers with limited resources, how to get most of the bang for the buck without spending a fortune.
If possible, please invite Simon Smart and other people who work with World Tour teams, so we will get more insight to what works and what doesn't. Or maybe Matt Bottrill or some top semi-pros not being sponsored and riding aero on the cheap with good results.
Would be interesting to put a drop handlebar on a light full sus xc bike and see how that would perform on Roubaix, not sure the UCI would be happy but I think it would be fast
You've just described a gravel bike 😃.
There are far too many road miles for that to make sense
I am guessing that the UCI has permeability limit regulations concerning cycling skinsuits in much the way that the FIS has (or had?) for downhill ski racing suits, given how draconian they are with EVERY OTHER minutia detail of cycling tech/engineering, correct?
Wouldn't you say the Specialized Roubaix is pretty much a Roubaix optimized bike? Suspension on the front, a faired ultra flexy seat post, and pretty aero for the tarmac.
As close as what we got this year yep
Does Dan have any insights about this Team GB Lotus bike and whether it offers any advantage at all (over rivals) on the track/ how much in terms of Watts? PT and Hambini recently discussed the Lotus bike vs the team Denmark Argon bike, I'm wondering if Dan shares the same opinions, considering he was working with the Danish team... Did they have any fears about Team GB unleashing this new "aero" (ugly) bike at the olympics? Or just thought it was a gimmick?
I meant to get to this but we ran out of time! Il try and ask him off record...
what would be the "Ideal" altitude for an Hour record or events in general?
Everyone will be different because we don't all lose the same power at the same altitudes
Just waiting for the beaver to show
Ah fuck yeah.
Fuckin' inspiring!!
I would like to have seen a team running Niner MCR 9 bikes at Paris Roubaix. Sit on wheels, do less work, get beat up less, be fresher for the end.
Maybe Lauf will make a road fork?
17 Watts in an old skinsuit??? Was it baggy, a couple of sizes too big? Sounds sensational.
Dan
Bro you should do a video about Aero bottles lol
in awe of the size of this ham
What is roughly the aero gain of using aero (carbon) tt bars such as the anemoi carbon arm rests vs typical tt bars? Further to the aero gains if any is there any advantage in terms of comfort?
Massive. 10+ watts. Carbon moulded to your forearms, few watts more.
How far will Dowsett go? 😀
In what regard? 🤣
@@PeakTorque At least 8967 km
oooh err missus 😯
If Dowsett asked, I wonder if Dan and Wattshop would take him on as a client.
A lot of backroads are dreadful, the trickle down of some road bike suspension that keeps power transfer would be great, well for me and my crappy roads at least
Weirdly, power loss through suspension may be more psychological than a real issue - czcams.com/video/BR10jYyJ4yE/video.html&ab_channel=DylanJohnson
@@peglor oh yeah I actually saw that, tho I still lock out my shocks when I hit tarmac climbs on my hardtail, I actually think a same bit of suspension on roadbikes could be good for average Joes, I reckon most power is lost when the crap surface means your wheels lose contact
As interesting as the applied science is to this + I truly enjoy Dans' continued progress, my mind always harkens back to something I'd read years ago, concerning performance motorcycle building & tuning = "the Computerized Dyno has never won a race..."
Anyhow > Good Luck Dan !!
blonde hair?? HELLO????
The only reasonable solution is to do it in space.
Can't believe you talk such way about Roubaix bikes... Have you seen in the last couple of years how many bike manufacturers gave up building special Roubaix bikes? Why?! Well, because pro riders (not engineers) know best (this time), they don't need those bikes... and, yes, it is their wish. I am happy to see this, when feeling (and clever thinking) is stronger (with results - objective) than "engineering". The last years, last 5 lets say, totally proved that.
This year, a very hard Roubaix, debutants all 3 on the podium, aero non-suspended bikes all 3 on the podium... Lets be honest and accept the facts :-)
Regards,
Mircea
First