Cultish: Mark Driscoll & The Cult Of Personality
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- čas přidán 25. 10. 2021
- In this episode we give a critique of the popular podcast “The Rise & Fall of Mars Hill” produced by Christianity Today. Our guest Tim Zion gives some unique perspective as someone who spent over a decade attending & being on staff at Mars Hill in Seattle.
-What is the driving force behind the popularity of this podcast?
-Did the podcast offer any real & viable solutions to those who’ve experienced
spiritual abuse or have been hurt by the church?
-What lessons can we learn from what happened at Mars Hill in order to be a better beacon of hope
to a world desperately looking for answers?
Tune in to find out!
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Please tell me that this video spotlights the cursing and swearing Mark Driscoll was known to do from the pulpit back in WA at Mars Hill. I'm leaning in to see if y'all dug deep enough to find it. Mark has left a wake of massive damage behind his "ministry".
I love Pastor Mark and I still rock with him. I hope everyone has a blessed day.
Hey guys 💜
I love your show but often I find some things are missing... in nearly every episode:
An intro which includes WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHY. Every episode feels like we’re coming into a conversation that’s half over. Like, unless we already know your topic in depth before we start listening to you, we’re left in the dark the whole time.
I’m half way through this episode and I don’t know if Mars Hill is a physical church or a podcast, who started it? Is it still going? What is the big hurt that everyone has, why? What happened there? What did they teach and was it good or bad? Why?
You guys are very good at making sure your audience knows that you’re not trying to condemn anyone and that you’re not trying to puff yourselves up... but in all the hypotheticals and caveats... you lose your audience. I’m just sharing because you guys ask for ideas and you’re doing an overhaul right now so adding a summery of the topic at hand is an incredibly important piece of each episode that we would love to see included 😃
Thank you for all your hard work!
40 minutes in and I totally agree with you
If you read the video description, you’ll see that this is a response to a recent podcast series called The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.
I agree, I listened to half of this and had no idea what they were talking about. I had to go listen to the whole podcast and then come back to this.
I totally agree. I'm sitting here googling Mars Hill trying to figure out what in the world is going on.
I have the same problem with every Christian channel that covers this topic. I’m Australian and was not a Christian when all of this unfolded so I have no idea what all the fuss is about
I don't think people wanted to see someone 'pay'. I think that people wanted accountability for Mark Driscoll which he never has faced. Forgiveness does not mean accountability is forsaken.
I never thought Cultish would interview Adam Sandler.
💀😂
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Christians are not at war with the world. We are trying to save the world for Christ. Oh my goodness!
Nah fam, they didn’t hang it on reformed theology.
I did attend MH for a few years up until the final year before it imploded. I think regardless of what happened behind closed doors 2 facts remain: MH did implode (it literally doesn't exist anymore) and Mark Driscoll ran to Arizona and the controversy continues to this day (he factually is in AZ with a new church he made and news articles have come out). Old controversy doesn't just follow him there but new controversies (people who left his church that never knew about MH mind you) in his new church and articles of once again cult like systems are coming out once again. Even his brazen speech about a 'trap' being set about the MH leaders.
For me, its fair to say that guy was the main root cause and will continue to be a root cause for destruction. No doubt others drank the kool aid and participated creating that implosion at MH, which the feedback loop became so great it had to give way eventually. However, Mark is the one that created that church and called it 'his' church and was ultimately responsible and ran away from the entire state. He now is a new emperor with even less checks and balances in his new church (and a ton of bodyguards for some reason) and I see a similar pattern in the years to come will unfold.
I’m 20 minutes into this video and I have no idea what this is about. I get the basics-Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill. But it’s like y’all assumed that the entire audience had heard the podcast. I know nothing about this church or this pastor, and 20 minutes in, I still know nothing. All I’ve learned is about the culture of the PNW.
It's true - if you haven't been listening to the podcast "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" or know anything about Mark Driscoll or Mars Hill, this episode of Cultish will be just gibberish. This episode of Cultish is specifically to address the concerns many people have about the Rise and Fall podcast.
Agreed. Context would have been greatly welcomed.
I just left a similar comment. A lot of these cultish episodes have the same problem. I really want to grasp what they’re saying, but the talk is lacking any context! Please guys, give an overview of what you’re trying to say and some background so we can follow what you’re trying to tell us!
They literally did… in the first few minutes they referenced the popular podcast and their intent in having this dialogue by bringing someone who was inside of Mars Hill to speak the issues brought up in this podcast, which is one of the most popular podcast series right now.
I thought this episode was SO great to hear as it brought balance to some of the perspective brought in the podcast. Issues are not measured by scripture in the podcast very often and there is an obvious bent. As much ego that grew out of Marc Driscoll, so much good, true Gospel centered work was being done. It’s good to hear some outside commentary on this.
@@danaemanuel1424 Right. They "referenced" the podcast. It would have been nice to give a five- or ten-minute overview of what happened with Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill for those of us who know nothing about the situation. You clearly listened to the podcast, so you found this episode helpful and interesting. Having listened to the podcast, it's impossible for you to listen to this episode with the ears of a person who hasn't heard the podcast, so you deeming it helpful and interesting and good is really pretty irrelevant to those of us who haven't heard the podcast and know absolutely nothing of the situation they're talking about.
As someone who followed Mars Hill until Marks dismissal, even spent time in Seattle culture, these were the EXACT things my husband and I said as we listened to the podcast.
Thanks for this it brought some clarity. I was part of the Portland Mars Hill, but definitely did not see the big picture problems. We did see little issues creeping up and left around the Real Marriage book too.
I began listening to Pastor Mark in 2008, having seen a 3-minute sermon-video an agnostic-friend really liked & shared on his blog (Thanks btw for making me realize I’m getting old!). I was in a BAD PLACE, & Mark’s expositional teachings, & how for once, the Bible wasn’t being preached in a boring way, was life-changing. I had already turned 180-degrees from the sinful-life I lived, but Pastor Mark’s voice was one of the first that began drowning out so many others.
I know Jesus used him to help me, & I thank God for him and ANY OTHER PERSON serving at Mars Hill in those days!
In the past 15-years I’ve gone of the rails/gotten LOTS wrong myself. I’m not a pastor of course, & I hear all this w/ an open-mind, but I am grateful for the role Mars Hill played/Mark Driscoll played.
Ditto! I learned so much from watching Mark’s sermons online and I’m grateful for him!
I think you'll appreciate the article Character is King by Tim challies..I had a similar experience to you and that resolved a lot about how to think about it
I can't thank you all enough for this, but especially Tim. This is the first time I've heard someone speak to the broader picture from a place of actual knowledge and honesty, in a way that conforms to exactly what I was seeing at the time. So many of the people there were out for blood; not because of Mark's failures, but because they had an agenda. Like Tim, I left before the end, and largely because of the sea change in the handling of the institution. But the reaction I saw from others still in the church to what lead to the end of MH was nothing but hatred. It is very heartening to hear Tim talk about the events with a measured understanding, from a place of love and submission to Christ. It's a sad truism that a little corruption will totally corrupt an institution, because those who refuse to participate will leave like Tim did. At least he had the wisdom to decentralize a new institution to make sure it doesn't happen again. Too many of us just live with the hurt instead.
At the halfway point it feels like you guys are more worried about protecting Driscoll than defending those hurt. Having been in two different similar situations, one in a church and one in a para-church ministry, it is highly important that people involved be transparent and allow people to share their hurt and tell the truth about what happened. It’s the pathway to healing. Yes the Gospel is the answer, but honest assessment and acceptance of what happened is important. I agree that CT was very secular in their production, but this podcast feels very defensive and like you are defending Driscoll.
Not using Scripture? Maybe Cosper is assuming we no a little Scripture. I could easily debate that Mark was not being Scriptual in his words and actions.
Know
Its is not voyerism to listen to the podcast rise and fall of Mars Hill. That is a very dismissive statement. The podcast by Christianity Today is shining a light on somthing very serious within churches, futher to be honest when you have been a victim yourself of spiritual abuse, the statement "it is voyerism to listen" feels extremely hurtful and judgemental. I am so grateful for the opportunity to listen to the "rise and fall of Mars hill" it gave rare and much needed space and time to the stories of the people destroyed and hurt by such a horrible culture. Therefore it valladiated and brought grace and understanding to some of my husbands and my own deep pain and I am sure many more others.
Agreed! The reason I listened to that podcast is because I could relate to the trauma they were describing from spiritual abuse. It had nothing to do with voyerism!
Sorry guys, this episode is really scattershot. Tim says some good things that could be applied as lessons. For example, his assertion that the primary issue at Mars Hill was immaturity and the raising up of leaders and “elders” who had not been tested was spot on. But, beyond that, gotta plan episodes like this better. Less caffeine bro.
Still have no idea what the podcast said about Mark nor do I care to listen to Ed Stetzer pontificate on the topic. Why are we taking any of these ”mainstream” outlets like Christianity Today ?!? seriously AT ALL. Or Vice hahaha. There are plenty of channels, this one included that transcend this grossly deceptive media. Second the sentiment to have Mark on. This was not a good analysis, more a review session on a episode no one watched or listened to.
Pretty good way to put it, I appreciate their attempt but as someone who barely knows about Mars Hill (i did listen to a bunch of Mark's sermons back in circa 2011 and found them decent but was put off by Driscoll's abrasive style) I found the topic interesting but this was a very difficult video to follow along with.
@@MagnaNemo yeah, I can understand that. I started downloading Driscoll’s sermons very early on. I feel like it was maybe ‘01 or thereabouts. I always liked his style. His abrasiveness was (almost) always counter-balanced by his humor. For me, as a young preacher, he gave me the courage to find my own voice and to be myself. My wife likes him now more than I do! 😂 And that’s saying something.
Anyway, lots of problems at Mars Hill. I’m sure there was plenty of repentance needed all around. I do feel terrible for those damaged by Driscoll’s own character flaws, sin, and shortcomings, but he’s probably not the only one to blame. It’s never just one thing or one person.
I attended Mars Hill from 2006-2008. He was a great expository teacher and would unapologetically call out heretics, but a switch was flipped. I think he fell in love with fame and his own persona as the leader of one of the fastest growing churches in the country.
so sad, thanks for your input!
Didn't it happen before tgat when he was writing a Religion section of tge Seattle Times.. written documentation of a foreshadowed fall and absence of intellectual humility.
At the time it was hard to determine how it happened, and so it's even harder now. He'd been facing a lot of pushback from external sources trying to liberalize Christianity, and he pushed strongly for a sound biblical foundation. Then, when that pushback started to come from the people he'd put in positions of influence within the church, he stopped saying "us" quite so much. It was as though he reacted to having wolves in the house by aiming at everyone around him, rather than saving everyone. Christ would have us save others at the cost of our selves. Mark saved himself at the cost of everyone else.
I have been listening to Rise and Fall as a complete outsider. I find it interesting that y'all offer critique before the series has even ended. It also sounds like you haven't even listened to the intro to the podcast. I understand the nature of defensiveness in guest, but clearly not an unbiased approach. I came from a similar setting as presented by CT in this podcast and I'll tell you the podcast is very helpful and feels totally objective and fair. I actually have recommended it as a good look at a gracious narrative of how God's sovereignty can work through expectedly broken men and systems to heal, save, and redeem a lost world; including unbelievers, believers and imperfect pastors. It seems (and I can't believe it, but really seems) like y'all haven't gotten past the intro of podcast. It kinda proves negative comments about apologia as a whole and I wish it didn't.
It’s almost two hours long and Very rambling. Thanks for your comments, helpful.
Oh! Is Mars Hill a podcast? Is Rise and Fall part of it? I’m so confused while listening because no summery was given so I thought I was going to find out about Mars Hill and it’s rise and fall... but I still don’t know what it is 😫 All I know is that no one in this show wants to judge the people who did it... or started it... or ended it? I don’t know.
@@postscriptciara Mars Hill was a megachurch headquartered in Seattle, Wa. that was pastored by Mark Driscoll. The curch imploded a few years back and the podcast is a look at it taken by Christianity Today. If you haven't listened to the podcast, this isn't going to make a lot of sense to you.
I don't think it's necessary to have every episode released to critique the podcast episodes that have released. I am an "outsider" as well, and find the podcast to be well done, but CT does seem to come at this from a certain perspective and aren't exactly unbiased in their storytelling. I don't know if they're hostile to "Reformed" theology, but they do seem to be hostile towards any type of more conservative theological standing by the church. I could be wrong, but that's how it sounds to me.
Not st all, I esteem Apologia very highly, the work they do amongst Mormons and the abortion clinics and I value and enjoy very much the preaching, especially Pastor Jeff’s.
A large church in multiple locations is not a church. It's an empire.
Yeah an idol
I love you guys and I mean no disrespect but I have had a difficult time following these last few episodes. You have massively changed your format or something, but I feel like I’ve just wasted 23 minutes of my life. I used to be part of an Acts 29 church and know a very little bit about Mark and Mars Hill, but I wanted to learn more and your titled piqued my curiosity. I don’t feel like enough of a foundation has been laid at all to be able to grasp the people and events you are discussing. There is almost zero context provided and it feels like I jumped in toward the tail end of a 3 hour movie and I want to ask everyone what’s going on and they’d just be like, ‘Shut up and watch from the beginning!” Well, yea, I’d like to. But that’s not what this is. I appreciate the effort but maybe I am misunderstanding who this content is geared towards. I used to love watching Cultish. Lately, I don’t feel like I know enough to follow the episodes. I really hope this is not a trend that continues. I mean this with love and respect for all of you. Thank you for sharing this content!
I agree
I could not agree more!
As far as Mark Driscoll, Character is King by Tim Challies. That article explains it all
I’m an hour in and I feel just like you do at 20 minutes. I’m so lost and there’s no context 😞
Thus was not a soup to nuts what happened to Mars Hill, but mostly a critique of the CA Podcast. A bit disorganized but not what you expected because of expectations.
I would loooooooove to see Mark Driscoll interviewed in this channel. He deserves to get a chance to respond.
LOVE THIS IDEA!!
No, he has had that before. He is disqualified from ministry and as such is putting himself outside of fellowship by his behavior
@@horrificpleasantry9474 I don't necessarily disagree that he's disqualified
@@horrificpleasantry9474 Doing an interview on CZcams, is totally separate from shepherding in leadership at a church. They have Bethel guests, and Remnant Radio guests for goodness sake. 😂 Interviewing someone is never an endorsement that they should be leading a church. Lol
@@jaquirox6579 it's true that the scripture doesn't forbid that directly, the reason why I would advise against giving him a platform is that a) it's not necessary to interview him for him to be correctly addressed, b) it legitimizes him, c) 1 Corinthians 5 forbids giving a greeting to someone who names the name of Christ but does not obey the Word, which includes his ban from public ministry according to the Scripture. lastly, I highly doubt cultist has had on bill Johnson to defend himself on their channel, or Kim walker Smith
Once again, I will suggest you guys do a brief overview of whatever topic/church/cult you are covering before you begin. I'm not familiar with Mars Hill or the podcast under discussion, so I am quickly lost and bored. If you began with a brief explanation of the topic, it would benefit your videos SO MUCH.
I wish there was some background story about Mark Driscoll and the church, I’m super lost.
Character is King by Tim Challies
Yes! I have no idea who or what Mars Hill is! A person? A church? A movement? A podcast? What does Calvinism have to do with it? When did it happen? Why are people hurt? Is it good or bad? I know Mark Driscoll can’t be trusted as a biblical teacher but I don’t understand what he has to do with Mars Hill. It sounds like these guys like Driscoll and anyone who doesn’t is just being hurtful... but WHY?
@@postscriptciara Mars Hill was a Church. Listen to the podcast, "the rise and fall of Mars Hill" first, then this video will make more sense.
We all need a personal relationship with Christ and better understanding of the Bible. That way we can know what’s right and wrong.
Amen brother! It's as simple as that! Keep standing on Truth! God bless!
I actually really like Mark Driscoll. I think he has great teaching, very detailed. Now I do think he had a heart change and calmed down a bit. I have a local church and we follow our Pastor's Leading. But on the side I do enjoy teaching by Pastor Mark on some bible books. John MacArthur is my dude. Nate Sala is great to listen to as well pointing you to scripture. At the end of the day is the congregation out talking to others about Jesus and helping their community. Like Jesus.
God used Mark Driscoll to twice pull me out of horrific life circumstances, and I won't be able to understand people's objections. To me the debate sounds like people with an incongruent personality not being able to vibe with Driscoll's personality the same way I can't vibe with Francis Chan.
I didn't have Christian leadership tell me where I was going wrong; they just told me that Jesus loved me, which is true, but I needed real help and was begging for help, and Driscoll was the only pastor who said, "yes, you're the problem and these are all the things you're doing wrong, why you need to change, and how God will provide the endurance to do so."
He's like a judge of Israel: flawed and mightily used by God
Think the guest slept through the Rise and Fall of MH, because much of the series was about how Mark was not under leadership. That in the end it was all about him.
In so many of these episodes I feel like you guys do so much ‘Insider Talk’. It would be helpful if maybe you could approach it from The perspective of someone who doesn’t have any basis to know what you’re talking about and then deep dive. I’m just so lost trying to figure out much of the info being shared! I can’t be the only one!
Agreed!
Yupperz
YES!
I’ve attended A satellite Mars hill church in Olympia, Washington back in the day. Mark Driscoll was viewed on a big screen for the church service.
I attended the U District one for a while near our apartment. I thought the delayed video was strange but I did like the church, each had a pastor, and I thought Driscoll was strong on important Bible teachings. Very tragic the fall of Mars Hill.
Seattle today is a horrible, disgusting mess and I'm confident there are no Truth-teaching churches in the city limits. I'm on the Eastside now and even here they are rare, extremely so. Cedar Park is the last one left. They didn't close
PNW is the Most unchurched area in entire USA
@@nelsonomicsruns9246 what do you think of Crossroads Bible Church in Bellevue? I went there a few weeks ago and I enjoyed the expositional teaching and the worship seemed God centered and not over the top like most big churches. But I only attended one week because I was in the area. Is this a solid church? Seemed to be from my POV
If you’re driving to a building to watch a screen and calling it ‘church,’ and calling the guy on the screen your ‘pastor,’ that should be a red flag.
guys, read the video description for context
This episode is confusing. I don’t have any idea what you guys keep referring to. Usually get a lot out of your conversations here but this episode was chaotic.
I just completed CT's series "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill." Im not a defender of Driscoll, but the entire podcast felt like a hit piece from an anti-Calvinism, anti-male headship persuasion. The majority of those interviewed were either apostates or egalitarian/feminists.
I hope Mark is accountable to a board of strong godly men.
This episode is excellent! Very well done.
I used to listen to Mark Driscoll, years ago he used to preach good sermons.
He still does.
Yes he does
He's disqualified from ministry so why anyone is listening to him is a concerning question
We have a Good God who can restore people I'm thankful for His mercy🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
Agreed. He still does. I'm surprised these guys are going along with this. I thought they were reliable.
Really came across as defending the abusive church leaders and attacking members that were pushed away from the church by this. Didn't hear much condemnation of Mark for the dishonesty and abuse. All this interest in attacking victims and defending corrupt abusive leaders. I had to nope out when the word "obedience" kept being brought. Why the hell would anyone want to be obedient in this context of a abusive and financialy dishonest pastors?
Marks teachings helped me in my early walk.
How did this guy ever listen to teachings anyway.. he seems to talk nonstop.
This is just horribly disorganized … I cringed through 11:20 before I had to turn it off. Is there a point to any of this gibberish?
Critiques of The Rise & Fall of Mars Hill podcast series by the likes of Aimee Byrd, Devi Abraham & Kyle Howard are much more salient than this. Listeners of The Rise & Fall here are called “voyeuristic” (why be so quick to impugn their motives?).
When I think “voyeurism,” I think of a missions ex-pastor of my former church, who was actually caught by police for voyeurism a year before he was fired (& let off with a warning). The senior pastor knew about this & undoubtedly thought he was being merciful to the missions pastor by keeping his voyeurism a secret. It never occurred to the senior pastor that he was hardly being merciful to the women in the pews, by putting them at the risk of a sexual predator for a year. (The missions pastor was only fired when he was actually arrested for voyeurism a year later & it was reported in the news.) THAT’S why a pod like Rise & Fall, despite its flaws, is so badly needed. These guys in this CZcams critique ask, “Why aren’t we going to the Bible for solutions instead of secular sources?” The real question should be, “Why didn’t the Bible keep Mars Hill (& other like-minded Christian communities) from being a train wreck in the first place?” Reason: because you haven’t bothered learning how to apply the Bible in formulating Christlike (upside-down) theologies of power and authority, how this relates to abuse & abuse coverups, and won’t listen & learn from Christians who have experience & have done the theological work (like Dr. Diane Langberg, Rachael Denhollander, Sheila Wray Gregoire, Dan Allender, Chuck DeGroat, Andy Crouch, etc., some of whom Mike Cosper interviewed). When these guys started saying, “Hey, nothing new about Driscoll pushing married sex; the Puritans did,” I couldn’t listen anymore. 🚩 The point is, Driscoll was pressuring wives-& only wives-to comply with their husband’s every sexual wish, which is coercive & can end up in marital rape. This view of women, as Rachael Denhollander & Sheila Wray Gregoire point out, has a lot more in common with porn than the Bible does.
Speaking of reformed theology, I think it would be really interesting for Cultish to explore the influence Augustus had on Calvin and the gnostic teachings that wormed their way into the modern church.
Sunday as Covenant Renewal...YES!
I love the show guys, but I’m super confused in this episode. I don’t know anything about Mars Hill, so I can’t seem to track what you guys are referring to with all the sort of part 3 type comments. Could you summarize what the subject topic is, and it’s cult like group, before you dive into an interview? That would be great. :)
Hey again. Character is King by Tim Challies. That article explains it all.
@@horrificpleasantry9474 where might I find that? Can u link me? 🙏🏽♥️
Lots of people fell away from the Mars hill church, Dustin Kensrue (lead singer from Thrice) turned away around 2016 and 2017, it looks like lots of people were deconstructed from mark driscoll or just the Mars Hill church in general.
I honestly couldn't make it thru the first episode. Christianity Today is so partisan and woke it makes it impossible for me to take their analysis seriously. The guy who did the pod isn't bad but CT is a clownshow.
I started watching and will continue to. I had a some misgivings but will persevere and see how things pan out.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Man you’re right on point. It gets more woke with each episode
@@NDemyanov lol great. The guy interviewed on Cultish touched on it too toward the end of this video. Like if there are things that Driscoll did or ways the ministry fell short then judge it by the Biblical standard for those things. Not how he upset the alphabet people or whatever. I literally do not care about that whatsoever.
Well, I picked up where I left off but I wasn’t getting anything out of this and abandoned it.
Disappointing.
When I want great unbiblical commentary, praise and worship of the biblically illiterate Contemporary Christian artists, I turn to the most trusted name in psuedo Christianity. Christianity today.
Whoever this first guy talking nonstop is - dont blame this on Seattle
Nothing is explained in this interview. I get the idea that Mark was difficult to deal with, I think?
I've heard his sermons and I think he's a good motivational speaker, better than a pastor. I don't think he takes Revelation seriously enough and doesn't understand that the church is really at war with the world. That view comes directly from things Driscoll has said in interviews.
But in this interview no groundwork is laid.
I think you would have had to listen to "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" podcast for this to make sense. I haven't listened to it, either, so I had to infer a lot.
@@XDominiqueXFranconX no wonder I felt like I was walking into a conversation half finished.
I was excited about listening to this, but the title was misleading. This should have been labeled as a response to the CT podcast. It was not really about the cult of personality. Having not listened to that podcast, much of this didn't resonate.
Just based off the comment section, unless you're already well acquainted with Mars Hill and Driscoll and the issues that led to him being kicked out, you wouldn't be able to figure it out from this video. I am, so I wasn't as lost, but I think this deserves a part two where you dive deeper into the actual issues ne experienced in Mars Hill.
Why has nobody mentioned the redemption groups at mars hill?
I don’t quite understand the expectation of covenant renewal on Sunday. First of all doesn’t the gospel in itself demand repentance and renewal. It felt like he’s saying reformed is drinking milk all week and only get meat on Sunday??
The only Mark Driscoll Ive listened to was in an interview with Doug Wilson. Thought he was pretty solid there, but that's just a tiny snippet in 1 convo, and I know nothing about how he actually pastored his church. One thing that stood out was he was talking about how they churned out pastors, basically as fast and young as possible. It just seems like that's a recipe for disaster, especially if they're unmarried.
Also, idk who it was, but after about the 3rd time a text came through, you'd think they'd put their phone on vibrate, instead of just letting it go off time after time after time while recording. Plus it was louder than the voices, so it was rather jolting and hard on the ears.
You say you're "unpacking" or "unraveling" as you breathlessly babble about Seattle culture and speak in broad random generalities, name-drop, tell anecdotal stories, throw out off-hand references, make endless assumptions, while apologizing and back-peddling yet here and there throwing subtle shade on Driscoll. Your equivocation and hemming and hawing reveal you must be pastors in your own right (that ability to speak for two hours and say almost nothing important is a testament to politicians and seeker-friendly pastors).
I attended Mars Hill for a while. The music was an embarrassment, a secular ungodly repetitive chant to the beat. The "elders" were milquetoast, unfocused, sentimental social workers with an emphasis on getting the audience jazzed up for Jesus, all smoke and no fire. Mark was pompous, angry, distant, cold, and feigning his boldness and harshness was for Jesus when it was his own personal internal conflict with men and males in general, an outcropping of his own unresolved childhood traumas.
I recall one Calvinist bent sermon, which was his best, never to be repeated. Most teachings were focused on society, behavior, sexual attitudes and purity, and marriage roles which were his overriding focus; a drumbeat on culture, norms, and sex saturated his preaching. I left because Mark was a one-trick pony. The church's atmosphere was a Seattle-like nightclub, and the elders were used car salesmen selling the church and selling Jesus. Obviously, the church was designed as a safe space for the unregenerate 20-somethings where Mark's role was to be the "closer" to get the unwashed masses a dose of morality and to "love Jesus" (usual crowd warming routine: "we love Jesus here at Mars Hills, let's all clap for Jesus, yeah".)
The church was huge but devoid of spiritual men -- mature Christian people were absent, replaced by emotional kids led by sentimental elders. It was obvious to those with any spiritual discernment this was so because Mars Hill was made to be the early Sunday hang-out. It offered free Starbucks, dance music, anonymity, darkness, and a loud sermon from Mark that was totally unlike today's typical rambling, equivocating, silly, morally vacuous, people-pleasing, heart-warming sermon full of stories and sweet words of nothingness as given by most pastors. Mark stood for something, and wasn't afraid to say it -- that alone was the big draw for the teens that had endured the pointlessness of post-modern "no-truth, your-truth, my-truth" drivel everyone else was spewing.
But Mars Hill wasn't a functional church. It was a movie theater experience, passively watching the show in the dark, then heading out for a day of frivolity having had an hour of entertainment and a bit of morality to appease God. It wasn't a church for believers. There was no iron sharpening iron. By design, it was a millennial magnet, a home for unchurched Seattlites. Mark's preaching was the side-show in the circus act that gave some air of legitimacy to what was otherwise a marketing scheme in the vein of the unbiblical church growth movement.
Excellent summary and spot-on.
We’re you involved in any small groups while you were attending Mars Hill?
Dang, Johnny! That was so well articulated. Bravo! You’re a talented communicator.
@@markt4281 That was the main focus of the "greeters" and other crowd workers at Mars Hill, to get you to the booth to sign up for a small group. It is well understood in church growth that to keep clientele you have to get them "connected" or "plugged in" or they will not return, same as any commission-selling retail business. I'm not interested in attending Sunday church to be sold a para-church or sub-church meeting as the "real" church that will supposedly do the things the Sunday church is incapable of doing. It appeared there were intersectional groups for kids, teens, adults, divorcees, males, females, recovering addicts, married couples, octogenarians, and every other conceivable sub-group. Once you reveal what trauma you are supposedly "struggling" with on the intake card, then you get shuttled to the correct "small group" to join others like yourself.
So, the small groups were on the face of it offensive and unbiblical, if what I was hearing about them was true. At most, to be biblical, a Bible study for women, men, and women/men both are the most divisions needed, and I would opt for just a mixed group of men and women as the best method to study the Bible. Mars Hill may have been doing something like this, I don't know. But the entirety of the high-pressure sales approach was off-putting enough for me (and perhaps many conservative Christians not in teen crisis mode) to make it a non-starter.
Johnny for cultish interview!!!!!!! That was so well said! Thank u. I just learned more about Mars Hill from your comment, than I did from this whole episode! 😂👏🏽👏🏽
Is there directions to this video in another video?
Excellent piece
What podcast are you constantly referring to? There is like no information being given here, what's going on here?
How did they get Adam Sandler on the podcast?
Oregon has it's own bible belt.
Did y’all even listen to the podcast? If what you got out of it is, “Christianity Today misdiagnosed this and blamed it on Calvinism and complentarianism,” then you need to go back and re-listen to the whole thing. I’m really disappointed with Apologia on this one. Y’all are normally so spot on, but y’all missed it on this one. Did some of the people on the podcast have more liberal views than you? Yea for sure. But you gotta look past that at the bigger picture. This is more about the culture of American Christianity than anything. It’s not an attack on reformed theology. It’s a zoomed in look on the bigger picture of parts of evangelicalism that are unhealthy in our country today. It’s a “take heed lest you fall” type thing. Thats what I thought this episode was going to be about, but what y’all gave us was whining and complaining that you perceived an attack on your theology. Y’all can do better
💯
This! ^
I don't think all deconstruction is deconstructing your faith in Jesus rather deconstructing your idea of the church.
Cursory read of comments suggests this ain't a great video/podcast. Content creators get called out as soon as they are perceived as unintelligible or lacking in data. Looks like that is the case here. I am an orthodox Christian btw looking for good content. Hate woke stuff. Love Jeff Durbin and James White. Please create something with a little meat to it rather than pure critique. Not a fan of Driscoll at all. But willing to forgive and be gracious as surely our Lord is and forever will be.
I agree. It’s lacking a clear objective, and deep meat. It’s more a chatty casual blasé critique. And the cult at hand needs a clear summery at the beginning. But I agree, I Iove the church and it’s teachers, usually for the meat, and the blunt approach. :-/
The interesting thing about the guy doing the podcast is that he was music pastor of a church in Louisville that very much patterned itself after Mars Hill--reformed theology, complementarianism, producing its own music and culture, etc. While I do feel that the podcast has some value as a warning, Cosper seems to be simultaneously biting the hand that fed him for many years. He seems now to have morphed into a woke-ish naysayer of the Reformation and its emphases.
Jeff Durbin does many of the same things Driscoll is doing today to try to control his image and the people in his church (and even outside his church). Both of them are very disturbing, and should not be leading a church.
I ask this sincerely. What specifically is Jeff Durbin doing that would disqualify him from church leadership?
1:00:35 although I don’t know what he is talking about specifically if someone was speaking out against false doctrine that is biblical. There a scripture that say public rebuke is better than secret love.
Hmm... I have his book Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe on how to recognize cult qualities in groups.
This guy is all over the place, maybe he should switch to decaf. Bragging about Keller was pretty disturbing too, I can't listen to this it is nearly impossible.
Wow
Mark Driscoll deserves to be defended. He is a brave warrior for Christ.
Really? Brave? In what sense? Can you plz be specific, because I have reasons why he shouldn’t be defended, and my reasons are simply Scripture verses
@@eagleclaw1179 You are correct.
@anna S you should look up the most recent open letter from Mark’s head of security at his church in AZ. Mark’s behavior is sinful.
Great...now you can do an episode on the woke cult of the magazine formerly known as "Christianity Today".
Have you guys listened to any of his recent stuff? I think he’s doing good biblical teaching now.
I attended the UDist over and thought he was always engaged in solid Biblical teaching, which is probably why he was taken down. PNW is terrible, most unchurched, anti-Christian region in the US
@@nelsonomicsruns9246 can I ask, what is UDist? And PNW? Search says Pacific North West. Nothing for UDist.
@@soundbite290 I think it’s University District
He's disqualified from ministry so if he's preaching he is actively in sin and you're in sin for encouraging others to listen to it, per Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 8. I say this with respect. Consider it a gentle rebuke
@@soundbite290 University District, just 2-3 blocks from the UofWashington. They had a very nice, old church off University Way. When we lived there it was a reasonably decent and safe area but now it is a disgusting, dirty, dangerous area of crime and Street people
Do you read the bible Ringo? Thats not from tombstone which is a great film but rather, its from pulp fiction.
This is not good content from you all. 😕
This episode I'm sorry to me is confusing I see so much apologies being given for Mark Driscoll on one hand you love his teaching and I guess your trying to say he was just new to being a pastor and made some mistakes and on the other hand he did hurt people and caused many to leave the faith which could go for any false teacher confused
How did they blame Calvinism for what happened? I don’t understand
Not Calvinism, but they definitely seemed to blame complementarianism.
@@amyclutter7259 what’s complementarianism?
@@BaconPizza The belief that men and women have different designs and roles. The husband is the head of the wife as Christ is head of the church.
@@amyclutter7259 both equal to the sight and love of God
@@amyclutter7259 ahhh okay, the Bible clearly teaches that.. yea I see what you’re saying. Thanks
Mark Driscoll is one of the only true pastors left he made mistakes and he repented end of story.
If he was so great why did Acts 29, which Mark founded, kick him out? Why did all 20+ elders deem him unqualified? You don’t know what you’re talking about. Likely you recently found Mark or don’t know his history.
Jesus is not the driver. Clearly he is the driver.
To me, Mars Hill is most notable for Demon Hunter coming out of there and not being lil' sissies about clinging strong to the faith in spite of what humans have done.
I really think that the cultish guys are doing the opposite thing that CT is doing.... If CT is in ways attacking Driscoll, cultish are defending him.... And what I think is that, Driscoll made great things, started well, even if he was all over the place, cause he started with the emerging church, and than went reformed, and to the end he was partnering with Warren and Grouschel,.. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, listen to the CT podcast and to this one, I still don't know where to land on Driscoll... Was he all that that CT is giving us or was he after all so good, that the Mars Hill church imploded with no reason? I still don't understand!
I didn't get at all that they were defending him. They mention several times his immaturity and more qualified to be a shock jock than a pastor.
Paul was loved by some, and hated by others.
I listened to just about everything on the Mars Hill website. I even listened to the Resurgence and Acts 29 material. I appreciated it very much. All the mess went down as I was going through a life crisis. When I tuned back in, I couldn't believe what happened. The clips from his sermons are out of context and used against him. When he shouted HOW DARE YOU He was talking to punks who abuse their wives. I was cheering him on. When he said get with the program or get off the bus...what's wrong with that? It was ministry he started.
Totally agree!!!
Character is King by Tim Challies. That article explains it all
I listened to the podcast and they explained the context for the HOW DARE YOU clip pretty well in an episode... They even played a longer clip of it. Perhaps you missed it?
Please explain how reformed theology is toxic?!
Man this guy seriously looks like a young Gary Demarr
If I was going to drop names the last one I'd drop is Tim Keller.
What’s wrong with Keller?
@@ctburcham woke
@@ctburcham Karl Marx Keller.
@@ctburcham I heard he had cultural Marxist views ( I need to learn more) also he endorses contemplative prayer. Very concerning as I’ve loved his teaching and his books
@@gracepilditch9388 This is a notification, check my previous comment
I dont understand what this was about
Is/was Mark Driscoll not the “cussing pastor”?
Yes, and also sometimes sexually explicit.
@@jobrown8146 his talks on the Song of Songs in Scotland were unnecessarily explicit and didn’t go go too well.
Yes, but he said he didn't like being known as that. He told the story of how he got labeled like that during a sermon.
Character is King by Tim Challies. That article explains it all
@@horrificpleasantry9474 thanks, I should take a look.
Hi, you blast tbe podcast but even the content of this video of yours doesn't match its title. Imagine doing a multi-part podcast on a very complex issue (which is what CT did) - they were bound to make some mistakes and things can always be better. Also, their take on things doesn't mean to be the same as yours. Their focus isn't the same as yours and that's not a bad thing.
I lived in Seattle, attended Mars Hill, worked with the homeless population, was part of the grunge culture, and was very moved by CT's podcast and the Mark they portrayed is very much the Mark I experienced.
There’s a reason people call CT “Christianity Astray” these days: they embrace a leftist / center-left worldview. Look at the politics of CT’s editor-in-chief Russell Moore and his good buddy David French. And so it goes with Mike Cosper who made the podcast.
There were a lot of great things about the podcast (I listened to it all the way through twice myself), but the tone and purpose of the whole thing came off as slightly condescending (á la NPR) and leaning left.
@jonathanfoutz8931 well, I'm not as afraid of leftists as I am of people who mistake being conservative with being Christian
I just think Seattle and Portland need to disappear completely.
Does anyone talk about the fact that Mark Driscoll has done a 180 turn around from his former ways of being a Pastor? He knows his faults and has changed. Trinity church where he is the pastor now is in Scottsdale, Az I would kind of think Apologia would be more friendly with Driscoll.
@Caleb P No. not that I’m aware of
True repentance means never preaching again because he's disqualified from ministry.. If he's preaching, he has not done a 180
Character is King by Tim Challies. That article explains it all
Actually the same things that happened then are happening again. He has no elders, and has been banning members pushing back. Earlier this year, a young staffer began dating his daughter, and he had security bar the staffer's entire family from being part of the church.
@@calebgeary3890 really? Where did you see this info?
Your criticism of the CT podcasts illuminates the planks in your own eyes. This is a podcast critiquing another podcast. I thought perhaps there would be substance or additional information about the mars hill story that would bring about contextual healing to my personal experience with mh. Unfortunately it was a polite way for Tim to display his bitterness for not being interviewed by CT. It is not helpful to have a condescending posture, especially when you declare that every story has two sides. If one holds that position, about not knowing the full scope "this side of eternity," then what makes Tim an authority on the CT podcast? There were many people who impacted by the mh implosion and live in Seattle. I have researched many resources on mh seeking closure/healing in my experience. Tim did a lot of name dropping which offered no real credibility for him to speak on CT podcast. If Tim had offered his opinion, as an opinion, I probably would not have posted this comment. However, the arrogance of Tim was a challenge to ignore. Tim does not speak for most Seattlites.
Stop asking me stuff. I wasn't there, and I'm not interviewing the guy who was. You're all talking like girls. Statements are imperative, not interrogative.
So glad you covered this. I listened to the podcast and thought they were biased. Honestly, I could care less what Christianity today says or thinks about anything. They’re liberal and very biased.
I would bet a MILLION dollars they wouldn't even THINK about talking about Mark Driscoll UNTIL he spoke against Calvinism. Then all bets were off. Don't touch their sacred cow
Aaaahhhhh I hate calvinism!!!! Grrr
Like he’s talking about a business
Is there anyone that these guys will not label as a cult?
This is my problem with modern Protestantism. They are corrupt from top to bottom and they constantly fight among each other over everything.
@@csouthland I mean I have no problem with Apologia calling balls and strikes on their theological differences, but labeling everyone who doesn’t toe your exact line is damaging to their witness. By grace alone through faith alone sure does come with a whole bunch of asterisks with these guys.
Around the 22:40 mark they explicitly state that their position is NOT that Mars Hill is a cult. That being the case, they sure dropped the ball on the video's title. Sheesh.
@@ArlenGunClub gotcha. I didn’t really make it that far. I commented based off the title and just part of what I heard. Why be so deceptive in titling?
@@joshcarter5759 I don't know that I'd immediately jump to accusing them of deception. Taking a charitable position, maybe they were using the expression "cult of personality" in a more colloquial sense rather than literal. IOW, just as way of describing Driscoll's magnetic charisma. Extremely poor choice of a descriptor, if that's the case.
The cult of personality, much like that surrounding James White.
I tried listening to the podcast. I got about fifteen minutes in and deleted it from the groans. I am curious about the situation and what happened but 'Christianity Today' dropped the Christ and doubled down on the 'Today'.
Besides their faults they did sooooo much right, and that’s why their message resonated. Stripped down Rat-Rod Christianity will resonate, then as now. PDX and SEA are full if people that need the WORD and take their living water neat. De-fluffy Bunny the church; Jesus and only Jesus. Just next time- distribute power and authority, and bring in seasoned leaders….the word reached people, not Mark.
Their critics from the podcast were too often defenders of the fluff.
What are you talking about? You know amongst yourselves the premise but as a listener, I have to make assumptions. Who did what? Goodbye.
Character is King by Tim Challies. That article explains it all
I see everyone doing shows and podcast on Mark. I see no one interviewing him or having him respond. Everything seems so one-sided. Specially when Christian Today seem more and more leaning towards progressive Christianity.
Mark declined to be part of the Podcast
This is very confusing
Please do a follow up on the podcast. It started off bad and went downhill from there! A bunch of pop psychology from former members who either deconstructed or went progressive whining about how the church just ruined their very existence! Oh, and CT decided that Mars Hill was a cult!