7 years ago I got to a point where I knew that I wanted to follow Jesus. I affirmed Nicene Trinitarianism (I didn't use that term then). I didn't know what deconstruction was then. I just knew that I had been fed a bunch of bad information by both well-intentioned saints and charlatans. Everything was questioned. Why am I doing this? What happens when someone is baptized? Why does that denomination/tradition do this or teach that? I strongly considered converting to Eastern Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy (and to be quite honest they still have a jaw-droppingly beautiful aesthetic). It's been a long journey and God is good. Ultimately, I stayed in my same church and have more confidence in what I believe. More importantly, it's so much easier to love my brothers and sisters in Christ who follow a different tradition because I have a better understanding of the what and why of their own distinctives. Now I'm going to college and talking with my pastor about training to be an associate pastor. God is good.
Loved reading this. I really resonate with your comment that once you have personally struggled with things, it's easier to relate to those in a different tradition. May God bless you in your studies and training.
@Aaryq With respect, if you are just in college - and thinking you pretty much have it nailed down...well, frankly, I hope you grow out that phase... Some of my most significant evolution in matters of "faith" came after I was 55yo.... And the benefit of having the wealth of life experience - and experience in the "Christian" community is essential to a much more meaningful process.... Regardless, I wish you well.
Thanks for the great video. One of the points you brought up was the power of church to harm. This even happens unintentionally, so every time I preach I pray that if there is someone who would be damaged by my message, the Lord would keep them from hearing it.
I took my family out of church 6 years ago and went through a deconstruction phase. My wife had experienced many years of psychological abuse and I don't think she believes anymore. She shuts down when I begin to talk about anything related to the church, unless it's to pile on insults. I am ready to return and my children ask when we can go to church, so that's a plus.
Maybe you included this in your comments on spiritual abuse, but what I rarely hear today is spiritual abuse against pastors by elders and deacons. It is a rampant, silent epidemic in the church. Pastors are slandered abused and forced out by people they loved and nurtured. The pain that follows is devastating. The wounds of anger, depression, anxiety and shame are difficult to heal. After over six years it is still hard to think about. You want to tuck and run, but what do you do when you’re not trained for anything else? But you entered ministry as a calling. I appreciate your comments on the sad reality of spiritual abuse and deconstruction. Much soul searching is in order for us all.
I actually attended Driscolls church here in AZ. I left a church that was teaching false unbiblical things and my wife and I stumbled upon his church. We fell in love with it. But we both suddenly took a big step back and had to ask ourselves are we in love with Christ more or are we falling in love with Driscoll. I have to give it to the guy he has a way of talking. But God was telling me something. I truly believe He told me to get out of driscolls church it isn’t for your family. And thankfully in that process I found theology and started learning all the great Christian traditions and the different theologies. While learning all of it can be extremely overwhelming it has greatly deepened my faith! And in this journey of very confusing theological ideas I came across Dr. Gavin Ortland to help me center my head a bit when the great theological issues that Protestants and Catholics and the orthodox have with each other lol. Also fun fact shortly after I decided to get out of the Trinity church that Driscoll runs I found that podcast completely by accident! My heart aches for the people who were hurt at Mars Hill! I hope all of them still hold on to their faith and I hope it continues to grow. Thanks again Dr. Ortland your the man!!🙏🙏🙏
@Carram - How about not worrying about all the things of man - and simply allowing God to manifest who He really is in the context of a fully open and humble heart?? Mark is an Entertainer - people love to be entertained and so there you have it
I grew up in Mars Hills and was baptized there; my family knew a lot of the elders and pastors and even Mark himself. I'm very glad I got a good biblical education as a kid and could never repay that. But yes, things were bad and we noticed it; so this was very painful, but I could see Mark's flaws and knew it had nothing to do with God. Since then I am now a missionary in Peru and I am so glad to be following my Lord.
If someone deconstructs their faith due to the actions of a church leader or a church as a whole, then to me, that's a sign that their faith was not based on the Word of God, but rather on human leaders and/or a specific church, which is a dangerous spot to be in spiritually.
Ten years ago this February, my deconstruction (we didn’t use that term back then) hit a boiling point. It was actually aesthetics that kept me in the faith. I saw beauty in the gospel and I knew I had to stay. It has been a long, slow reconstruction for me, but I’m in a much better place now than I was then. Thank you for fighting for reconstruction. May God multiply your influence.
Hey Daniel! Good to 'see' you on hear. I 100% agree with you about the compelling and keeping power of beauty...and specifically, the beauty of Christ as manifest in the Gospel and resonant with the whole of creation as nothing else could be. Praise the Lord for His keeping graces.
Agreed; for me, the issues should not be insulated from the congregation while also not encouraging gossip or ill will toward the offender. It’s a really tall order and I don’t have the answer.
@@CombatWombatQRF I Cor 6 1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
@@jamessheffield4173 God bless you too. I too had a negative faith shaking experience and had to walk, super wary about joining any organized religion , I meet with fellow believers as often as I can, watch lots of sermons on CZcams and pray as much as prompted to. All of this makes me draw closer to God in repentance.....
I would recommend reaching out to Alisa Childers. She has focused a lot on spiritual abuse and deconstruction. She herself has personal experience with this as well too.
That episode was hard for me to hear also. It’s heartbreaking to have heard so many families just discarded because they didn’t go along with all his narratives.
As a father and a physician, it was convicting to think that the things we say should be managed as carefully as a dentist avoiding injury to a nerve. I really appreciate that particular comment.
Great video! I’m torn on the podcast. It was really well produced and there seemed to be helpful points. But I hated how CT threw a lot of babies out with the bath water. Especially its treatment of complementarianism due to Mark’s distortion of it. Driscoll was put on discipline, didn’t repent with the discipline, so he should be treated like an outsider- I don’t know if that means talking about every detail of his life, but it definitely means he is unfit for ministry currently.
Just driving on my way back from the dentist right now your dentist illustration was so real for me - My wife and I have really been helped by Diane Langberg - cried thru second to last episode of the podcast where One of the guys who was fired spoke about how the real church of God the people with a Savior’s heart caught him and his family as they fell, supported them cared for them - feel like the podcast re-traumatized me I had to really wait till I was in a good place mentally before listening on - One thought I had is it seems like big figureheads maybe start their ministry by putting their vision in front of love… And then as the vision is realized you come to rely on the structure of the thing and then when push comes to shove you protect the vision not the people, I really had to think hard about that just to evaluate OK what visions of mine are taking pride of place over loving people with a life laid down kind of love like Jesus - thanks for giving us permission to cross examine and deconstruct, I remember reading about how evil in the church caused Francis Schaeffer to withdraw and deconstruct, and Tim Keller always talking about doubting your doubts it’s like yeah this isn’t just a terrible thing necessarily - Rachel DanHollander‘s story is another saga like Rising Fall of Mars Hill so massively horrible what can happen in the church, we know what bad authority can do first hand as well I’m so sorry you’ve experienced that Gavin you and your wife and I’m so sad to hear about that - I don’t know the details but it hurts to imagine, I’m so thankful for you opening up to us about that too and really appreciate your insights on this video
I’m so glad you mentioned that it felt a little uncomfortably like gossiping at some point because I too felt that in my spirit. I wonder what you make of the continuous bonus episodes. Personally, I’m not sure it adds much to the story and even potentially contributes to the negative side of deconstruction.
Thanks for bringing this conversation to the Cross Dr. Ortland. It hurts a lot when you feel people attempting to point the powers of deconstruction at our dying savior the Lord Jesus Christ or the Church he died to save instead of our own biases (speaking beyond considering Mars Hill in Seattle of course, I've never been there). God bless.
Excellent and thoughtful comments from Dr. Ortlund. As an “exvangelical” myself, having deconstructed my own evangelical background, I feel like this podcast creates a great starting point for anyone in American Evangelicalism to take an opportunity to take a hard look at their own faith, church and tradition. I don’t think that we need to treat this process as an intrinsic evil, as it can and has been very healthy for many Christians in various church environments. Many Christians have had their faith refined and strengthened as a result. This process of deconstruction was painful at the time for my wife and I, but it ended up being such a blessing, as we were able to see the truths of Apostolic Christianity in a way that we might not have been able to do otherwise. Our faith is now far stronger than it has ever been, and we are so blessed to have come out of American Evangelicalism and into full communion with the Catholic Church. Dr. Ortlund’s takeaways are so similar to my own. My wife and I also have experienced deep wounding by people in authority at church in the past and this podcast brought back so many of those strong feelings. I remember feeling especially hurt during one episode where Driscoll said that he was “all about blessed subtractions”. Those type of comments along with all the awful comments about the “Mars Hill Bus” and all the “bodies” behind it just made me feel almost sick to my stomach. And Gavin is so right about how when there is no repentance or opportunity for reconciliation, the wounds are so much more difficult to heal. I have so many more thoughts... I was especially touched by Josh Harris’s raw testimony. I was very disappointed that Tim Keller and John Piper chose not to participate. I was stunned by how the other pastors at the Gateway event just accepted Driscoll, treated him as a victim, allowed him to get away with his crimes and offered him a new platform without any accountability. Thank you Gavin for having the courage to talk about this!
Hey Taylor, I definitely agree that deconstruction can be healthy, though as you know I have sadness that it resulted in departure from Protestantism in your case, and hurt from how you went about it. Nonetheless, thank you for sharing your thoughts, I have hope that our friendship can be restored and am happy to still be in contact somewhat. God bless you guys.
Balanced and wise treatment Gavin! About twenty years ago, after ministering with a parachurch, church, and lastly, Christian school, I came up with these P words to clarify my concerns about the evangelical subculture (not the beautiful Evangelical faith I see throughout history and even today): Watch out when personal preferences morph into priorities that then are treated as biblical precepts because they usually become powerfully perverted paradigms.
I just finished listening this week. At my Christian College 2003-2007 “Blue Like Jazz” was required reading in our Christian doctrine class. We were also reading other “Emergent” works like “A New Kind of Christian” and “A Generous Orthodoxy”. The podcast brought me back to those days as well as reminded me of my own mega-church experiences over the years. Looking forward to hearing Gavin’s take!
Yes I have visited Mars Hill. My take is that if we get away from celebrity preacherboys and showbiz church services, and train all the men of the church to be able ministers, including--in many cases--being pastor/teachers, we can begin seeing churches that look like the ones taught about in the New Testament (Ephesianns and Thessalonians, etc.). Not free of all problems, but with a much broader base from which to evaluate teachings, provide encouragement, and activate new outreach to a need world.
Just watched your video with Josh McDowell. I'm a Christian and a musician.. it really spoke to me. Really enjoyed it. I subbed. YT "said" that you had nine thousand plus subs and after it said 10K.
Like you, I have a problem with the deconstruction language. I've started using renovation to describe the process my family and I went through when we escaped an abusive church.
Great video, Dr. Ortlund! I have recently undergone a period of deconstruction, but not of a full-blown "deconversion" (there's yet another word, and not a very good one if you ask me). It was Young-Earth Creationism that I had to let go of, among other things like my views on hell and what salvation looks like. I understand, however, that many have differing views on subjects of creation, soteriology, and eschatology. At the end of the day, Jesus is still my first love. Keep up the good work!
Thank you for the observations. 2 Corinthians 13:5 - "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" I agree that we should do some self-examination and that it is necessary for us to grow in our faith. We need to be considerate that our responses to those who have questions would give them more excuses or justification to focus on the negativity that might exist. I appreciate the reconstruction idea.
Thank you for your insights Pastor Gavin! Could you please make a video expanding on the topic of "healthy church"? You said here, "larger churches tend to be more healthy than smaller churches". I am curious to what "marks" a healthy church. Thank you for all that you do, your videos have been rich in grace and wisdom!
Thank you for addressing this. I would absolutely love to see if you'd be willing to read and respond to the works, "Jesus and John Wayne" by du Mez as well as Barr's work "the making of biblical womanhood". These works are doing exactly what you seem worried about re: complementarianism. I've read the first and found some of it compelling. I haven't read Barr's though, but I know it's supposed to be the heavy hitter in reformed circles right now
I’ve only recently become aware of Dr. Ortlund, but so far I’ve been pretty blessed by his material. But I found this podcast somewhat frustrating. I hate to criticize as his heart really comes through here, but I do think he’s being far too gracious towards the Rise and Fall podcast. He says that he worries about the associations that will be drawn from the series towards things like Reformed theology, complementarianism, and others. But it seems to me very clearly that this is precisely what CT was going for. And in case that just sounds terribly uncharitable, Alisa Childers had the same take and she’s not Reformed and is one of the most gracious leaders in the church today. Progressive Christians are throughout portrayed as the heroes and the last episode particularly gushed over them. At one point, someone is quoted as saying that this is exactly what happens when the Bible is taken literally. Obviously as Evangelicals we don’t take the Bible completely literally, but his jab was clearly not aimed only at the worst sorts of fundamentalist preachers, but squarely at Ev as a whole. I understand Cosper is not endorsing everything each person says, but there is little question in my mind that the way so many of the episodes, interviews, and commentary are framed, he and CT are specifically trying to indict Ev as a whole with the hope of pushing the listener in a PC direction. I’ll give another example. At one point, I believe in the last episode, but possibly in the second to last, Cosper is talking about one of the abused women he is interviewing and he goes on to talk about how she and her husband are in a much healthier church now that is more progressive and egalitarian. The message seems clear to me and when you combined that with the direction of CT for a long while now, I don’t think my conclusion is a stretch.
Hate what is evil; cling to what is good - Rom 12:9b; The temptation to call it all bad (reckless deconstruction) is to be resisted just as much as the tendency to pretend it is all good (victim blaming, gas lighting etc).
The Shattered Lantern (a book by a Catholic) viewed Nietzsche's God is dead as having a different colloquial meaning than the common usage of it. That we are killing God by our views and our lives (something like that, been a few decades since I read that). Love your shepherd's heart (the whole video shows that).
I thought the podcast really took a terrible situation and used it to push an ungodly agenda. I appreciated some of the more researched responses. I encourage you to do the same
None of us are perfect even though we may be perfected in a spiritual body somewhere we still sin we are still wretched people all of us saved and unsaved. The key to reconstruction is forgiveness, we have all been forgiven through the blood of Jesus it says through his stripes we are healed from our sin, just like the story of the man, the debtor and the ruler, we who have been forgiven of our debt should show even Greater Mercy towards those indebted to us because all belongs to God Jesus is Lord over All everything and everybody so if we have been forgiven then we are to forgive even more so forgiveness Grace love keys to a happy marriage and we are the bride of Christ so may we forgive may we love may we have Grace that overflows our cups.
One of the most helpful books I have read last year on the topic of deconstruction was After Doubt by A J Swoboda, I really loved how he writes. He and NT scholar Nijay Gupta has a podcast on this issue called In Faith and Doubt. Highly recommend
I agree with what you're saying on vocabulary. We need to find better words to describe the deconstruction experiences that people have that are positive so there isn't confusion and we get clarity on what people mean when they use that word. Then we can have clarity on those who "deconstruct" from historic Christianity (Christ as the Son of God, The Bible as God's Word, etc) and call it what it is.. Apostasy. We can't glorify or romanticize it; we need to be firm for the hopeful outcome of repentance back to who Christ is.. God incarnate.
I have not yet watched this but I will get to it soon. I just wanted to say, I know this is not relevant to this video but it would be really cool if you got Steven Nemes to talk about his phenomenology of scripture thesis. I find it to be very interesting in addressing division in church today.
Hey Gavin. I want you to know that I have really enjoyed your content, perspective, and approach. You have really challenged my presumptions in the intellectual elements of the Christian faith and in my heart regarding church membership. My wife and I are attending RCIA, which is the Catholic membership class, and we are not on the same page regarding entering the Catholic Church. I've come to understand her perspective more deeply and appreciate her concerns regarding entering the Catholic Church. I've also spent countless hours listening to and reading Catholic and Protestant voices regarding those core issues of justification, sola scriptura, and the authority of the pope in the Catholic Church. I appreciate more deeply how legitimate Protestant concerns about Catholic doctrine are, but regardless I still in my heart am drawn to the Catholic Church and can affirm the papal office, even if the formal recognition of the office developed later. I was just wondering if you had any pastoral advice for this season of my life. I've actually prayed that if my reasoning is wrong and my motives are impure that the Holy Spirit brings these errors to my attention, that I have the courage to repent of them, and the mercy of my wife for spending so much time pursuing this path, but I still see so much coherence in Catholicism and so much benefit to their ecclesiology for the unity of the church regardless of the Marian dogmas, some of the weaknesses of the papal claims, and the complexity of justification. We just want a church which we can both call home. Thank you
You know the answer you're looking for, but you want external validation. Do you think the Holy Spirit wants you to belong to a HOME that has the following caveats >>>>Marian dogmas, some of the weaknesses of the papal claims, and the complexity of justification
I'd love to see you review the book _The Way of the Dragon Or the Way of the Lamb_ by Jamin Goggin and Kyle Strobel as a follow up/continuation of this conversation. It's all about power and its relationship to the church and Christians. Something to consider! You could even get Jamin and/or Kyle on with you. Could be very beneficial.
My Great-Grandfather deconstructed in the late 19th century in Northern Greece. It was caused by getting his hands on a bible and pointing things out to the local Priest, who wasn't amused. He became stronger in his faith, not weaker. Shouldn't true deconstruction by a Christian be a journey into searching the word of God rather than by looking at the surrounding culture, their local church or the failings of other individuals? Shouldn't it also be time of looking at yourself with humility, and drawing closer to God? I think honest deconstruction is rare.
Thanks for commenting Dennis; I definitely think any healthy deconstruction or refinement should be ultimately looking to Scripture and the Lord. I also think seeing problems in the church might be a occasion or circumstance that influences that process. God bless.
It's certainly possible that some turn instinctively to the Word of God and grow stronger in their faith, but we can't discount the real pain and disorientation that can result from an abusive church experience.
@@mj6493 I definitely agree that any kind of suffering caused by a church community should be addressed, and the whole church should look to see what has happened. I do maintain however, there is a difference between a person who went to church without having been regenerated that decides to deconstruct and a Christian who does. I think their goals are very different, even if they have witnessed the same abuses.
@@Mygoalwogel There was no other churches in the area and Orthodoxy WAS Christianity in the region- there were no Protestant or Catholic churches. He did however manage to get excommunicated for refusing to give up his opinions. He became known as "The Bible Man" and was considered extremely pious by people around him. His son had the same problem- reading the word, getting in trouble, and finally, he passed this problem on to my father, who had the same original bible. He too read it on his own and got tired of the abuses in the church and left it. But he continued to read the bible on his own and died following Christ, like his father and grandfather. We still have the bible.
Renaming “making the faith my own” or “ separating from my parents beliefs” into a modern and cutting edge title like “deconstruction” doesn’t make anyone a deep thinker. Stop falling into the “I SO want to be relevant!” call that culture demands of us. Humility is an essential part of following Christ. This movement pushes Christ to the side and sets one’s own self at the centre. Now - spiritual abuse and coping with its effects, isn’t to be taken lightly. But not all behaviour is abuse … these cases aren’t new to the 21st century. Use it to grow, instead of wallowing in the mire. Speaking as one who has experienced tremendous abuse, it can either cut your legs out from you permanently or used to propel you to rise up. Either case, God allowed it so it is meant for our good. Be courageous 🤙
Tread lightly and with humility. "Renaming 'making the faith my own' or 'separating from my parents beliefs' into a modern and cutting edge title like “deconstruction” doesn’t make anyone a deep thinker" is genuinely the kind of statement/rhetoric someone in this part of their faith journey would read and think they weren't being taken seriously or heard and would push them further away from genuine authentic fellowship.
@@areyouzaccannon1 what’s disturbing is that this movement is coming from kids raised in the church, who’ve tasted/ seen that God is good, apostatized, and now are boasting about it for monetary gains & popularity. I wasn’t fortunate to have been raised in the church. I know how GOOD Gods grace is bc he pulled me out of the world. These thankless and haughty snowflakes have been trained to trust their feelings instead of trusting truth and facts. No grace for those reject Christ and are capitalizing on it for personal gain. Shame on ALL of us for being cool with the pilfering of the gospel bc we “need to make ppl feel heard”. Grace and compassion is in abundance … but there are red lines we don’t cross. This isn’t tertiary. Have grace for how the Lords super is done congregationally or for women as elders (even though the bible speaks to this, outright), but not for those who throw the church under the bus bc they felt some type of way or have hurt feelings. Shoot, show me someone who hasn’t been burned by a church and I’ll show you a young Christian.
Theory: We do not take on this issue at the root because of its interconnected ness with many other issues. I.e. Church performance culture, Encouragement of the disengagement of laity, Isolation culture. I think contrary to popular belief, we as modern westerners prefer a “come and see” church, that discourages laity involvement and encourages high power leaders to do the work of ministry for us. Even some of the most well meaning folks I know, when we reflect on church history, don’t know how to engage in a local church in the way it once was done. It feels as though we get too busy, even one night a week at a church function can feel like it is crowding our “rest” or “self health”. We hate church her, but everything up until that point provides a individualist culture that sits really well with modern western sensibilities. So it makes much more sense to simply lament the results, can move on without addressing the root. Pulling the root would hurt hurt our selfishness all too much
There are so many issues. Churches run like businesses, the “laity” (I no longer like that expression) treated like children, clergy promoting their own woke and social justice issues, unbelieving theologians who reduce the Faith to a philosophy of life, humility as a virtue not emphasised enough, serious ministry issues in a church swept under a carpet and only acknowledged when things fall apart, church leaders no longer teaching the historic faith, generally a dumbing down of worship songs and sermons, sermons often little more than motivational and self-help talks, church services more like entertainment, many doctrines ignored in a church that seems to be trying to please the world, &c. We rely too much on being taught by pastors and this results in dependency. The old mediating Roman priest is still here and the “new presbyter is but the old priest writ large.” Christians must read the Bible for themselves and the teacher is the Holy Spirit and Jesus. There is still wheat and a harvest.
Gavin, The question is whether you can be genuinely honest to challenge your own convictions - maybe start with your own bibliology with the numerous issues related to the documents compiled into what we call the Bible - including how the Bible came to exist - and then the different matters historical, scientific, ethical failures and internal contradictions which abound. If you can't be honest about these matters without doing all kinds of mental twisting and gyrations and obfuscations, how can anyone take you, your "faith" and your theology seriously?
Do you think there was any bias from Christianity Today is the retelling of this story? It seems very one sided to me. I’m sure Mark Driscoll would agree with some things and disagree with others. I attended Mars Hill for a number of years at the main campus and found it very edifying in my Christian development. The criticism of Mark Driscoll is over the top. Mark Driscoll planted a mega church in the least churched city in the U.S.; Seattle is and was a hostile place for biblical Christianity. Thousands received Jesus and had changed lives because of it. Men were given a kick in the pants and told to grow up, take responsibility and be productive with their lives for Gods kingdom. The Progressives attacked the church because Mark preached biblical sermons and didn’t mince words; he addressed the culture directly. I think most people would have a difficult time walking in his shoes, being balance and dealing with the pressures of the job. Mark Driscoll has publicly apologized for his part in hurting those on staff and has moved on; I wish those who were hurt would do the same. All this criticism a decade later seems overblown. What did Mark do? It must have been terrible. Did he commit adultery? No he has been faithful to his wife. Did he embezzle church funds? No. He hurt some peoples feelings in the way he lead and that warrants a twelve episode podcast. Smh. Mark Driscoll isn’t living in the past like some, he has planted a thriving church in Arizona with his wife and children.
Deconstruction seems to me to be a bad thing. Almost no one I’ve encountered who deconstructs ends up reconstructing in a way that resembles Biblical Christianity. It’s almost always a progressive version or atheism. If someone is genuinely hurt by the church and is questioning things they should be wanting to reform their beliefs to conform to God’s word, not deconstructing their beliefs based on the sinful acts of God’s people. There’s always room to call out issues and problems in the church and with leadership, but the deconstruction movement itself seems extremely unhelpful from what I’ve gathered.
This is really good. I think we see the Psalmist deal with the wrongs that have been done to him, but then correcting his emotion and feelings according to who God has revealed himself to be in his Word. He doesn't let the abuses, sins, and evil from the King of Israel and others move him to "deconstruct" but to reform his thoughts and emotions to the Word of God.
Deconstruction is not to evangelical churches. Fundamentalist worked deconstruction 100 years ago when the question of inerrancy and social gospel influence
Unpopular Opinon Alert - a broader issue that should be addressed was addressed by Christ. Let noone call you teacher - the significance here is that the pulpit/sermon oriented teaching model may very well be unbiblical. Anytime a speaker cannot have his teachings questioned, discussed, or challenged in real time is taking an inappropriate position of authority. The church has accepted for a long time, but whether or not there is truly a Biblical model for this is an excellent question. If you think about all of the out of control preachers and their doctrines, as well as the authority assumed by the Catholic church, it all is enabled by the idea practice if giving people this kind of authority. Think about it.
When deconstruction crosses a certain threshold, it needs to be called out as apostasy. Period. The episode on deconstruction tried, in my opinion, to make the process and arrival at apostasy a beautiful or profound solution. And I say that as a person who has struggled with deconstruction. There is certainly healthy ways to break down what we believe, but this become a "fad" and a type "spiritual profoundness".
Alex, I definitely agree that deconstruction of the faith altogether is apostasy and should be stated as such. Hence my appeal against that trend. Are you saying that the podcast suggested that deconstruction in that sense (apostasy itself) is beautiful or profound? I cannot remember anything like that.
@@TruthUnites Perhaps I was too strong in wording, it did not seem to me that issue was as big of a problem as it should be. That's just my opinion though.
@@TruthUnites In the beginning one does feel the pain but does grow to the point where the carnal behaviour of carnal Christians does not affect you as a Christian/leader grows spiritually. My pastor experienced church hurt almost in his christian life because they hated him for speaking the mind of God in scenarios where they did not walk according to the scriptures. He is still experience it even from other leaders in our community but it does not affect him anymore. He also emphasizes growing in the love of God which helped him in overcoming 'church hurts'. It takes a while to get there though, maturing as a christian.
Of course your first inclination was "at what point is this gossip?" because IT IS GOSSIP. “Aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs.” - St. Paul
What is your definition of gossip? Do you think there is any place to publicly identify sin in public figures? Was Paul gossiping about Alexander in II Tim 4:14?
@@TruthUnites I know you are a thoughtful brother. Im not here to pick a fight with you. As far as your question, I feel like thats a parsing of thigs that common sense needn't be parsed. "Who is my neighbor?" "How far is too far?"... In other words, your default inclination I would call the Spirit probing you to mind your own affairs. Paul tells the Christians in Thessalonica to “aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, so that you may walk properly before outsiders.” I’m not sure the creators or listeners of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast have heeded this divine council. In one of his letters to Timothy, Paul identifies the certain type of carnal ladies who are prone to “be idlers, going about from house to house [podcast to podcast?], and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies.” Are we being those ladies?
@@countrymusicpride Great points, but could you add something addressing 2 Tim 4:14? How do you see this passage -- what made this appropriate (if so) for Paul to say, etc?
@@debras3806 it's a fair question. The response is consistent with my views: Timothy seems to know Alexander, and so they were probably part of a local church together. But, Ill take it further when in Gal Paul speaks of his rebuking and calling out Peter - this is, simply put, because He is an Apostle putting together the canon.
When are you planning to expose the real problems - -in the canon - the bible regardless of how it is mis-used .... Until you come to grips with what the real cause of deconstruction is - the Bible, this entire discussion is irrelevant
It does not help people trusting pastors when a conference full of pastors applauds a pastor who fled discipline and did not acknowledge the flock he abused for his own personal wealth, influence and reputation.
Gave a look at Mark Driscoll after watching this. First thing that came to my mind: this guy is obnoxious. I guess that's the new trend to attract attention: being obnoxious for Jesus.
I’m so glad you mentioned that it felt a little uncomfortably like gossiping at some point because I too felt that in my spirit. I wonder what you make of the continuous bonus episodes. Personally, I’m not sure it adds much to the story and even potentially contributes to the negative side of deconstruction.
I’m so glad you mentioned that it felt a little uncomfortably like gossiping at some point because I too felt that in my spirit. I wonder what you make of the continuous bonus episodes. Personally, I’m not sure it adds much to the story and even potentially contributes to the negative side of deconstruction.
I went through my own deconstruction process due to the issue of Biblical inerrancy. I briefly stopped believing, but God brought me back.
I am glad God brought you back!
If I may ask, what is your conclusion on biblical inerrancy as it relates to faith in God?
@@aromarose4133 my understanding, as it stands, is that like Jesus, the Bible has two natures, both human and divine.
@@he7230 I know its been a year since you made this comment, but that is so insightful and such a great way of putting it.
Exactly what has happened/is happening in the John MacArthur/Eileen Gray situation. Very sad.
7 years ago I got to a point where I knew that I wanted to follow Jesus. I affirmed Nicene Trinitarianism (I didn't use that term then). I didn't know what deconstruction was then. I just knew that I had been fed a bunch of bad information by both well-intentioned saints and charlatans. Everything was questioned. Why am I doing this? What happens when someone is baptized? Why does that denomination/tradition do this or teach that? I strongly considered converting to Eastern Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy (and to be quite honest they still have a jaw-droppingly beautiful aesthetic). It's been a long journey and God is good. Ultimately, I stayed in my same church and have more confidence in what I believe. More importantly, it's so much easier to love my brothers and sisters in Christ who follow a different tradition because I have a better understanding of the what and why of their own distinctives.
Now I'm going to college and talking with my pastor about training to be an associate pastor. God is good.
Loved reading this. I really resonate with your comment that once you have personally struggled with things, it's easier to relate to those in a different tradition. May God bless you in your studies and training.
@Aaryq
With respect, if you are just in college - and thinking you pretty much have it nailed down...well, frankly, I hope you grow out that phase...
Some of my most significant evolution in matters of "faith" came after I was 55yo.... And the benefit of having the wealth of life experience - and experience in the "Christian" community is essential to a much more meaningful process....
Regardless, I wish you well.
Thanks for the great video. One of the points you brought up was the power of church to harm. This even happens unintentionally, so every time I preach I pray that if there is someone who would be damaged by my message, the Lord would keep them from hearing it.
I took my family out of church 6 years ago and went through a deconstruction phase. My wife had experienced many years of psychological abuse and I don't think she believes anymore. She shuts down when I begin to talk about anything related to the church, unless it's to pile on insults.
I am ready to return and my children ask when we can go to church, so that's a plus.
Maybe you included this in your comments on spiritual abuse, but what I rarely hear today is spiritual abuse against pastors by elders and deacons. It is a rampant, silent epidemic in the church. Pastors are slandered abused and forced out by people they loved and nurtured. The pain that follows is devastating. The wounds of anger, depression, anxiety and shame are difficult to heal. After over six years it is still hard to think about. You want to tuck and run, but what do you do when you’re not trained for anything else? But you entered ministry as a calling. I appreciate your comments on the sad reality of spiritual abuse and deconstruction. Much soul searching is in order for us all.
You are so right. I addressed this a bit starting at 20:17. It is something we have got to talk about more.
I actually attended Driscolls church here in AZ. I left a church that was teaching false unbiblical things and my wife and I stumbled upon his church. We fell in love with it. But we both suddenly took a big step back and had to ask ourselves are we in love with Christ more or are we falling in love with Driscoll. I have to give it to the guy he has a way of talking. But God was telling me something. I truly believe He told me to get out of driscolls church it isn’t for your family. And thankfully in that process I found theology and started learning all the great Christian traditions and the different theologies. While learning all of it can be extremely overwhelming it has greatly deepened my faith! And in this journey of very confusing theological ideas I came across Dr. Gavin Ortland to help me center my head a bit when the great theological issues that Protestants and Catholics and the orthodox have with each other lol. Also fun fact shortly after I decided to get out of the Trinity church that Driscoll runs I found that podcast completely by accident! My heart aches for the people who were hurt at Mars Hill! I hope all of them still hold on to their faith and I hope it continues to grow. Thanks again Dr. Ortland your the man!!🙏🙏🙏
@Carram - How about not worrying about all the things of man - and simply allowing God to manifest who He really is in the context of a fully open and humble heart??
Mark is an Entertainer - people love to be entertained and so there you have it
I grew up in Mars Hills and was baptized there; my family knew a lot of the elders and pastors and even Mark himself. I'm very glad I got a good biblical education as a kid and could never repay that. But yes, things were bad and we noticed it; so this was very painful, but I could see Mark's flaws and knew it had nothing to do with God. Since then I am now a missionary in Peru and I am so glad to be following my Lord.
If someone deconstructs their faith due to the actions of a church leader or a church as a whole, then to me, that's a sign that their faith was not based on the Word of God, but rather on human leaders and/or a specific church, which is a dangerous spot to be in spiritually.
Ten years ago this February, my deconstruction (we didn’t use that term back then) hit a boiling point. It was actually aesthetics that kept me in the faith. I saw beauty in the gospel and I knew I had to stay. It has been a long, slow reconstruction for me, but I’m in a much better place now than I was then. Thank you for fighting for reconstruction. May God multiply your influence.
Thanks Daniel, love hearing about your reconstruction. The beauty of the gospel has helped me so much as well. God bless.
Hey Daniel! Good to 'see' you on hear. I 100% agree with you about the compelling and keeping power of beauty...and specifically, the beauty of Christ as manifest in the Gospel and resonant with the whole of creation as nothing else could be. Praise the Lord for His keeping graces.
My expectations of people are so very low, I don't think any ill treatment would cause me to turn from my faith in God.
You are a such a thoughtful honest person, appreciate your ministry.
When you have an incident in a church there is just no place to talk about it.
Agreed; for me, the issues should not be insulated from the congregation while also not encouraging gossip or ill will toward the offender. It’s a really tall order and I don’t have the answer.
@@CombatWombatQRF I Cor 6 1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
Awesome breakdown, forgiveness is key in all these matters.
@@krustysurfer The mob has sit downs, but in a church all you can do is leave.. God bless you and your family.
@@jamessheffield4173 God bless you too.
I too had a negative faith shaking experience and had to walk, super wary about joining any organized religion , I meet with fellow believers as often as I can, watch lots of sermons on CZcams and pray as much as prompted to.
All of this makes me draw closer to God in repentance.....
I would recommend reaching out to Alisa Childers. She has focused a lot on spiritual abuse and deconstruction. She herself has personal experience with this as well too.
That episode was hard for me to hear also. It’s heartbreaking to have heard so many families just discarded because they didn’t go along with all his narratives.
As a father and a physician, it was convicting to think that the things we say should be managed as carefully as a dentist avoiding injury to a nerve. I really appreciate that particular comment.
Great video! I’m torn on the podcast. It was really well produced and there seemed to be helpful points. But I hated how CT threw a lot of babies out with the bath water. Especially its treatment of complementarianism due to Mark’s distortion of it.
Driscoll was put on discipline, didn’t repent with the discipline, so he should be treated like an outsider- I don’t know if that means talking about every detail of his life, but it definitely means he is unfit for ministry currently.
Just driving on my way back from the dentist right now your dentist illustration was so real for me - My wife and I have really been helped by Diane Langberg - cried thru second to last episode of the podcast where One of the guys who was fired spoke about how the real church of God the people with a Savior’s heart caught him and his family as they fell, supported them cared for them - feel like the podcast re-traumatized me I had to really wait till I was in a good place mentally before listening on - One thought I had is it seems like big figureheads maybe start their ministry by putting their vision in front of love… And then as the vision is realized you come to rely on the structure of the thing and then when push comes to shove you protect the vision not the people, I really had to think hard about that just to evaluate OK what visions of mine are taking pride of place over loving people with a life laid down kind of love like Jesus - thanks for giving us permission to cross examine and deconstruct, I remember reading about how evil in the church caused Francis Schaeffer to withdraw and deconstruct, and Tim Keller always talking about doubting your doubts it’s like yeah this isn’t just a terrible thing necessarily - Rachel DanHollander‘s story is another saga like Rising Fall of Mars Hill so massively horrible what can happen in the church, we know what bad authority can do first hand as well I’m so sorry you’ve experienced that Gavin you and your wife and I’m so sad to hear about that - I don’t know the details but it hurts to imagine, I’m so thankful for you opening up to us about that too and really appreciate your insights on this video
I’m so glad you mentioned that it felt a little uncomfortably like gossiping at some point because I too felt that in my spirit. I wonder what you make of the continuous bonus episodes. Personally, I’m not sure it adds much to the story and even potentially contributes to the negative side of deconstruction.
Thanks for bringing this conversation to the Cross Dr. Ortland. It hurts a lot when you feel people attempting to point the powers of deconstruction at our dying savior the Lord Jesus Christ or the Church he died to save instead of our own biases (speaking beyond considering Mars Hill in Seattle of course, I've never been there). God bless.
Excellent and thoughtful comments from Dr. Ortlund.
As an “exvangelical” myself, having deconstructed my own evangelical background, I feel like this podcast creates a great starting point for anyone in American Evangelicalism to take an opportunity to take a hard look at their own faith, church and tradition. I don’t think that we need to treat this process as an intrinsic evil, as it can and has been very healthy for many Christians in various church environments. Many Christians have had their faith refined and strengthened as a result. This process of deconstruction was painful at the time for my wife and I, but it ended up being such a blessing, as we were able to see the truths of Apostolic Christianity in a way that we might not have been able to do otherwise. Our faith is now far stronger than it has ever been, and we are so blessed to have come out of American Evangelicalism and into full communion with the Catholic Church.
Dr. Ortlund’s takeaways are so similar to my own. My wife and I also have experienced deep wounding by people in authority at church in the past and this podcast brought back so many of those strong feelings. I remember feeling especially hurt during one episode where Driscoll said that he was “all about blessed subtractions”. Those type of comments along with all the awful comments about the “Mars Hill Bus” and all the “bodies” behind it just made me feel almost sick to my stomach. And Gavin is so right about how when there is no repentance or opportunity for reconciliation, the wounds are so much more difficult to heal.
I have so many more thoughts... I was especially touched by Josh Harris’s raw testimony. I was very disappointed that Tim Keller and John Piper chose not to participate. I was stunned by how the other pastors at the Gateway event just accepted Driscoll, treated him as a victim, allowed him to get away with his crimes and offered him a new platform without any accountability.
Thank you Gavin for having the courage to talk about this!
Hey Taylor, I definitely agree that deconstruction can be healthy, though as you know I have sadness that it resulted in departure from Protestantism in your case, and hurt from how you went about it. Nonetheless, thank you for sharing your thoughts, I have hope that our friendship can be restored and am happy to still be in contact somewhat. God bless you guys.
Balanced and wise treatment Gavin!
About twenty years ago, after ministering with a parachurch, church, and lastly, Christian school, I came up with these P words to clarify my concerns about the evangelical subculture (not the beautiful Evangelical faith I see throughout history and even today):
Watch out when personal preferences morph into priorities that then are treated as biblical precepts because they usually become powerfully perverted paradigms.
I just finished listening this week.
At my Christian College 2003-2007 “Blue Like Jazz” was required reading in our Christian doctrine class. We were also reading other “Emergent” works like “A New Kind of Christian” and “A Generous Orthodoxy”. The podcast brought me back to those days as well as reminded me of my own mega-church experiences over the years.
Looking forward to hearing Gavin’s take!
Yes I have visited Mars Hill. My take is that if we get away from celebrity preacherboys and showbiz church services, and train all the men of the church to be able ministers, including--in many cases--being pastor/teachers, we can begin seeing churches that look like the ones taught about in the New Testament (Ephesianns and Thessalonians, etc.). Not free of all problems, but with a much broader base from which to evaluate teachings, provide encouragement, and activate new outreach to a need world.
Just watched your video with Josh McDowell. I'm a Christian and a musician.. it really spoke to me. Really enjoyed it. I subbed. YT "said" that you had nine thousand plus subs and after it said 10K.
Can't wait! Just finished the podcast a few weeks ago. Absolutely insane!
Like you, I have a problem with the deconstruction language. I've started using renovation to describe the process my family and I went through when we escaped an abusive church.
Great video, Dr. Ortlund! I have recently undergone a period of deconstruction, but not of a full-blown "deconversion" (there's yet another word, and not a very good one if you ask me). It was Young-Earth Creationism that I had to let go of, among other things like my views on hell and what salvation looks like. I understand, however, that many have differing views on subjects of creation, soteriology, and eschatology. At the end of the day, Jesus is still my first love. Keep up the good work!
I'm glad you have found Christ to be still your first love, despite changes on these other areas! God bless you!
Thanks for shedding light on this … can’t wait to listen to the podcast!
Thank you for the observations. 2 Corinthians 13:5 - "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" I agree that we should do some self-examination and that it is necessary for us to grow in our faith. We need to be considerate that our responses to those who have questions would give them more excuses or justification to focus on the negativity that might exist. I appreciate the reconstruction idea.
Thanks 🙏 good word! I can relate to a lot of what you are saying.
Thank you for your insights Pastor Gavin! Could you please make a video expanding on the topic of "healthy church"? You said here, "larger churches tend to be more healthy than smaller churches". I am curious to what "marks" a healthy church. Thank you for all that you do, your videos have been rich in grace and wisdom!
Thank you for addressing this. I would absolutely love to see if you'd be willing to read and respond to the works, "Jesus and John Wayne" by du Mez as well as Barr's work "the making of biblical womanhood". These works are doing exactly what you seem worried about re: complementarianism. I've read the first and found some of it compelling. I haven't read Barr's though, but I know it's supposed to be the heavy hitter in reformed circles right now
I’ve only recently become aware of Dr. Ortlund, but so far I’ve been pretty blessed by his material. But I found this podcast somewhat frustrating. I hate to criticize as his heart really comes through here, but I do think he’s being far too gracious towards the Rise and Fall podcast.
He says that he worries about the associations that will be drawn from the series towards things like Reformed theology, complementarianism, and others. But it seems to me very clearly that this is precisely what CT was going for. And in case that just sounds terribly uncharitable, Alisa Childers had the same take and she’s not Reformed and is one of the most gracious leaders in the church today. Progressive Christians are throughout portrayed as the heroes and the last episode particularly gushed over them. At one point, someone is quoted as saying that this is exactly what happens when the Bible is taken literally. Obviously as Evangelicals we don’t take the Bible completely literally, but his jab was clearly not aimed only at the worst sorts of fundamentalist preachers, but squarely at Ev as a whole. I understand Cosper is not endorsing everything each person says, but there is little question in my mind that the way so many of the episodes, interviews, and commentary are framed, he and CT are specifically trying to indict Ev as a whole with the hope of pushing the listener in a PC direction.
I’ll give another example. At one point, I believe in the last episode, but possibly in the second to last, Cosper is talking about one of the abused women he is interviewing and he goes on to talk about how she and her husband are in a much healthier church now that is more progressive and egalitarian. The message seems clear to me and when you combined that with the direction of CT for a long while now, I don’t think my conclusion is a stretch.
Good video :)! I hope u make a video about faith and works
Hate what is evil; cling to what is good - Rom 12:9b; The temptation to call it all bad (reckless deconstruction) is to be resisted just as much as the tendency to pretend it is all good (victim blaming, gas lighting etc).
The Shattered Lantern (a book by a Catholic) viewed Nietzsche's God is dead as having a different colloquial meaning than the common usage of it. That we are killing God by our views and our lives (something like that, been a few decades since I read that).
Love your shepherd's heart (the whole video shows that).
I thought the podcast really took a terrible situation and used it to push an ungodly agenda. I appreciated some of the more researched responses. I encourage you to do the same
None of us are perfect even though we may be perfected in a spiritual body somewhere we still sin we are still wretched people all of us saved and unsaved. The key to reconstruction is forgiveness, we have all been forgiven through the blood of Jesus it says through his stripes we are healed from our sin, just like the story of the man, the debtor and the ruler, we who have been forgiven of our debt should show even Greater Mercy towards those indebted to us because all belongs to God Jesus is Lord over All everything and everybody so if we have been forgiven then we are to forgive even more so forgiveness Grace love keys to a happy marriage and we are the bride of Christ so may we forgive may we love may we have Grace that overflows our cups.
One of the most helpful books I have read last year on the topic of deconstruction was After Doubt by A J Swoboda, I really loved how he writes. He and NT scholar Nijay Gupta has a podcast on this issue called In Faith and Doubt. Highly recommend
I agree with what you're saying on vocabulary. We need to find better words to describe the deconstruction experiences that people have that are positive so there isn't confusion and we get clarity on what people mean when they use that word. Then we can have clarity on those who "deconstruct" from historic Christianity (Christ as the Son of God, The Bible as God's Word, etc) and call it what it is.. Apostasy. We can't glorify or romanticize it; we need to be firm for the hopeful outcome of repentance back to who Christ is.. God incarnate.
I have not yet watched this but I will get to it soon. I just wanted to say, I know this is not relevant to this video but it would be really cool if you got Steven Nemes to talk about his phenomenology of scripture thesis. I find it to be very interesting in addressing division in church today.
Hey Gavin.
I want you to know that I have really enjoyed your content, perspective, and approach. You have really challenged my presumptions in the intellectual elements of the Christian faith and in my heart regarding church membership.
My wife and I are attending RCIA, which is the Catholic membership class, and we are not on the same page regarding entering the Catholic Church. I've come to understand her perspective more deeply and appreciate her concerns regarding entering the Catholic Church. I've also spent countless hours listening to and reading Catholic and Protestant voices regarding those core issues of justification, sola scriptura, and the authority of the pope in the Catholic Church. I appreciate more deeply how legitimate Protestant concerns about Catholic doctrine are, but regardless I still in my heart am drawn to the Catholic Church and can affirm the papal office, even if the formal recognition of the office developed later.
I was just wondering if you had any pastoral advice for this season of my life. I've actually prayed that if my reasoning is wrong and my motives are impure that the Holy Spirit brings these errors to my attention, that I have the courage to repent of them, and the mercy of my wife for spending so much time pursuing this path, but I still see so much coherence in Catholicism and so much benefit to their ecclesiology for the unity of the church regardless of the Marian dogmas, some of the weaknesses of the papal claims, and the complexity of justification. We just want a church which we can both call home.
Thank you
You know the answer you're looking for, but you want external validation. Do you think the Holy Spirit wants you to belong to a HOME that has the following caveats >>>>Marian dogmas, some of the weaknesses of the papal claims, and the complexity of justification
I'd love to see you review the book _The Way of the Dragon Or the Way of the Lamb_ by Jamin Goggin and Kyle Strobel as a follow up/continuation of this conversation. It's all about power and its relationship to the church and Christians. Something to consider! You could even get Jamin and/or Kyle on with you. Could be very beneficial.
My Great-Grandfather deconstructed in the late 19th century in Northern Greece. It was caused by getting his hands on a bible and pointing things out to the local Priest, who wasn't amused. He became stronger in his faith, not weaker. Shouldn't true deconstruction by a Christian be a journey into searching the word of God rather than by looking at the surrounding culture, their local church or the failings of other individuals? Shouldn't it also be time of looking at yourself with humility, and drawing closer to God? I think honest deconstruction is rare.
Thanks for commenting Dennis; I definitely think any healthy deconstruction or refinement should be ultimately looking to Scripture and the Lord. I also think seeing problems in the church might be a occasion or circumstance that influences that process. God bless.
It's certainly possible that some turn instinctively to the Word of God and grow stronger in their faith, but we can't discount the real pain and disorientation that can result from an abusive church experience.
@@mj6493 I definitely agree that any kind of suffering caused by a church community should be addressed, and the whole church should look to see what has happened. I do maintain however, there is a difference between a person who went to church without having been regenerated that decides to deconstruct and a Christian who does. I think their goals are very different, even if they have witnessed the same abuses.
@@dennistoufexis5790 Did he remain Orthodox?
@@Mygoalwogel There was no other churches in the area and Orthodoxy WAS Christianity in the region- there were no Protestant or Catholic churches. He did however manage to get excommunicated for refusing to give up his opinions. He became known as "The Bible Man" and was considered extremely pious by people around him. His son had the same problem- reading the word, getting in trouble, and finally, he passed this problem on to my father, who had the same original bible. He too read it on his own and got tired of the abuses in the church and left it. But he continued to read the bible on his own and died following Christ, like his father and grandfather. We still have the bible.
Renaming “making the faith my own” or “ separating from my parents beliefs” into a modern and cutting edge title like “deconstruction” doesn’t make anyone a deep thinker. Stop falling into the “I SO want to be relevant!” call that culture demands of us. Humility is an essential part of following Christ. This movement pushes Christ to the side and sets one’s own self at the centre.
Now - spiritual abuse and coping with its effects, isn’t to be taken lightly. But not all behaviour is abuse … these cases aren’t new to the 21st century. Use it to grow, instead of wallowing in the mire. Speaking as one who has experienced tremendous abuse, it can either cut your legs out from you permanently or used to propel you to rise up. Either case, God allowed it so it is meant for our good. Be courageous 🤙
Tread lightly and with humility. "Renaming 'making the faith my own' or 'separating from my parents beliefs' into a modern and cutting edge title like “deconstruction” doesn’t make anyone a deep thinker" is genuinely the kind of statement/rhetoric someone in this part of their faith journey would read and think they weren't being taken seriously or heard and would push them further away from genuine authentic fellowship.
@@areyouzaccannon1 what’s disturbing is that this movement is coming from kids raised in the church, who’ve tasted/ seen that God is good, apostatized, and now are boasting about it for monetary gains & popularity. I wasn’t fortunate to have been raised in the church. I know how GOOD Gods grace is bc he pulled me out of the world. These thankless and haughty snowflakes have been trained to trust their feelings instead of trusting truth and facts. No grace for those reject Christ and are capitalizing on it for personal gain. Shame on ALL of us for being cool with the pilfering of the gospel bc we “need to make ppl feel heard”. Grace and compassion is in abundance … but there are red lines we don’t cross. This isn’t tertiary. Have grace for how the Lords super is done congregationally or for women as elders (even though the bible speaks to this, outright), but not for those who throw the church under the bus bc they felt some type of way or have hurt feelings. Shoot, show me someone who hasn’t been burned by a church and I’ll show you a young Christian.
1:45 i felt the same thing
Maybe the idea of “renovating” your faith would be even better than reconstruction
RE-EXAMINE seems like a more palatable alternative than DIS-ENTANGLE.
Theory: We do not take on this issue at the root because of its interconnected ness with many other issues. I.e. Church performance culture, Encouragement of the disengagement of laity, Isolation culture. I think contrary to popular belief, we as modern westerners prefer a “come and see” church, that discourages laity involvement and encourages high power leaders to do the work of ministry for us. Even some of the most well meaning folks I know, when we reflect on church history, don’t know how to engage in a local church in the way it once was done. It feels as though we get too busy, even one night a week at a church function can feel like it is crowding our “rest” or “self health”. We hate church her, but everything up until that point provides a individualist culture that sits really well with modern western sensibilities. So it makes much more sense to simply lament the results, can move on without addressing the root. Pulling the root would hurt hurt our selfishness all too much
There are so many issues. Churches run like businesses, the “laity” (I no longer like that expression) treated like children, clergy promoting their own woke and social justice issues, unbelieving theologians who reduce the Faith to a philosophy of life, humility as a virtue not emphasised enough, serious ministry issues in a church swept under a carpet and only acknowledged when things fall apart, church leaders no longer teaching the historic faith, generally a dumbing down of worship songs and sermons, sermons often little more than motivational and self-help talks, church services more like entertainment, many doctrines ignored in a church that seems to be trying to please the world, &c. We rely too much on being taught by pastors and this results in dependency. The old mediating Roman priest is still here and the “new presbyter is but the old priest writ large.” Christians must read the Bible for themselves and the teacher is the Holy Spirit and Jesus. There is still wheat and a harvest.
Gavin,
The question is whether you can be genuinely honest to challenge your own convictions - maybe start with your own bibliology with the numerous issues related to the documents compiled into what we call the Bible - including how the Bible came to exist - and then the different matters historical, scientific, ethical failures and internal contradictions which abound.
If you can't be honest about these matters without doing all kinds of mental twisting and gyrations and obfuscations, how can anyone take you, your "faith" and your theology seriously?
👍🏼👍🏼
Do you think there was any bias from Christianity Today is the retelling of this story? It seems very one sided to me. I’m sure Mark Driscoll would agree with some things and disagree with others. I attended Mars Hill for a number of years at the main campus and found it very edifying in my Christian development. The criticism of Mark Driscoll is over the top. Mark Driscoll planted a mega church in the least churched city in the U.S.; Seattle is and was a hostile place for biblical Christianity. Thousands received Jesus and had changed lives because of it. Men were given a kick in the pants and told to grow up, take responsibility and be productive with their lives for Gods kingdom. The Progressives attacked the church because Mark preached biblical sermons and didn’t mince words; he addressed the culture directly. I think most people would have a difficult time walking in his shoes, being balance and dealing with the pressures of the job. Mark Driscoll has publicly apologized for his part in hurting those on staff and has moved on; I wish those who were hurt would do the same. All this criticism a decade later seems overblown. What did Mark do? It must have been terrible. Did he commit adultery? No he has been faithful to his wife. Did he embezzle church funds? No. He hurt some peoples feelings in the way he lead and that warrants a twelve episode podcast. Smh. Mark Driscoll isn’t living in the past like some, he has planted a thriving church in Arizona with his wife and children.
Deconstruction seems to me to be a bad thing. Almost no one I’ve encountered who deconstructs ends up reconstructing in a way that resembles Biblical Christianity. It’s almost always a progressive version or atheism.
If someone is genuinely hurt by the church and is questioning things they should be wanting to reform their beliefs to conform to God’s word, not deconstructing their beliefs based on the sinful acts of God’s people.
There’s always room to call out issues and problems in the church and with leadership, but the deconstruction movement itself seems extremely unhelpful from what I’ve gathered.
I agree deconstruction is often a bad thing, but I have also witnessed many for whom it is a process of refining and strengthening their faith.
This is really good. I think we see the Psalmist deal with the wrongs that have been done to him, but then correcting his emotion and feelings according to who God has revealed himself to be in his Word. He doesn't let the abuses, sins, and evil from the King of Israel and others move him to "deconstruct" but to reform his thoughts and emotions to the Word of God.
Deconstruction is not to evangelical churches. Fundamentalist worked deconstruction 100 years ago when the question of inerrancy and social gospel influence
Unpopular Opinon Alert - a broader issue that should be addressed was addressed by Christ. Let noone call you teacher - the significance here is that the pulpit/sermon oriented teaching model may very well be unbiblical. Anytime a speaker cannot have his teachings questioned, discussed, or challenged in real time is taking an inappropriate position of authority.
The church has accepted for a long time, but whether or not there is truly a Biblical model for this is an excellent question.
If you think about all of the out of control preachers and their doctrines, as well as the authority assumed by the Catholic church, it all is enabled by the idea practice if giving people this kind of authority.
Think about it.
When deconstruction crosses a certain threshold, it needs to be called out as apostasy. Period. The episode on deconstruction tried, in my opinion, to make the process and arrival at apostasy a beautiful or profound solution.
And I say that as a person who has struggled with deconstruction. There is certainly healthy ways to break down what we believe, but this become a "fad" and a type "spiritual profoundness".
Alex, I definitely agree that deconstruction of the faith altogether is apostasy and should be stated as such. Hence my appeal against that trend. Are you saying that the podcast suggested that deconstruction in that sense (apostasy itself) is beautiful or profound? I cannot remember anything like that.
@@TruthUnites Perhaps I was too strong in wording, it did not seem to me that issue was as big of a problem as it should be. That's just my opinion though.
@@alexwarstler9000 Thanks for clarifying and from my perspective the danger of glorifying/romanticizing deconstruction is a very real problem.
@@TruthUnites Romanticism is a perfect way to describe what made me feel uneasy.
Those who are in leadership should grow above 'church hurt'.
why? do you think people become invincible when they are in leadership? trying to understand your comment....
@@TruthUnites In the beginning one does feel the pain but does grow to the point where the carnal behaviour of carnal Christians does not affect you as a Christian/leader grows spiritually. My pastor experienced church hurt almost in his christian life because they hated him for speaking the mind of God in scenarios where they did not walk according to the scriptures. He is still experience it even from other leaders in our community but it does not affect him anymore. He also emphasizes growing in the love of God which helped him in overcoming 'church hurts'. It takes a while to get there though, maturing as a christian.
Of course your first inclination was "at what point is this gossip?" because IT IS GOSSIP.
“Aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs.”
- St. Paul
What is your definition of gossip? Do you think there is any place to publicly identify sin in public figures? Was Paul gossiping about Alexander in II Tim 4:14?
@@TruthUnites I know you are a thoughtful brother. Im not here to pick a fight with you. As far as your question, I feel like thats a parsing of thigs that common sense needn't be parsed. "Who is my neighbor?" "How far is too far?"... In other words, your default inclination I would call the Spirit probing you to mind your own affairs.
Paul tells the Christians in Thessalonica to “aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, so that you may walk properly before outsiders.” I’m not sure the creators or listeners of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast have heeded this divine council. In one of his letters to Timothy, Paul identifies the certain type of carnal ladies who are prone to “be idlers, going about from house to house [podcast to podcast?], and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies.” Are we being those ladies?
@@countrymusicpride
Great points, but could you add something addressing 2 Tim 4:14? How do you see this passage -- what made this appropriate (if so) for Paul to say, etc?
@@debras3806 it's a fair question. The response is consistent with my views: Timothy seems to know Alexander, and so they were probably part of a local church together. But, Ill take it further when in Gal Paul speaks of his rebuking and calling out Peter - this is, simply put, because He is an Apostle putting together the canon.
@@countrymusicpride
Makes sense!
When are you planning to expose the real problems - -in the canon - the bible regardless of how it is mis-used ....
Until you come to grips with what the real cause of deconstruction is - the Bible, this entire discussion is irrelevant
Mars Hill? Deconstruction? Some of us are pretty fresh.
It does not help people trusting pastors when a conference full of pastors applauds a pastor who fled discipline and did not acknowledge the flock he abused for his own personal wealth, influence and reputation.
Gave a look at Mark Driscoll after watching this. First thing that came to my mind: this guy is obnoxious. I guess that's the new trend to attract attention: being obnoxious for Jesus.
People can also work hard on, and have brilliant production quality, in making pornos - that doesn't make it in any way noble or good.
Exactly! Megachurches are spiritual pornography. Totally agree with you.
I’m so glad you mentioned that it felt a little uncomfortably like gossiping at some point because I too felt that in my spirit. I wonder what you make of the continuous bonus episodes. Personally, I’m not sure it adds much to the story and even potentially contributes to the negative side of deconstruction.
I’m so glad you mentioned that it felt a little uncomfortably like gossiping at some point because I too felt that in my spirit. I wonder what you make of the continuous bonus episodes. Personally, I’m not sure it adds much to the story and even potentially contributes to the negative side of deconstruction.